Fibromyalgia & POTs

Jason is an engineering graduate who reinvented himself as a podcaster and chronic illness/disability advocate after developing fibromyalgia and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS). He is the host of Discomfort Zone, a podcast featuring immersive stories on chronic illness and disability that showcase our vulnerability, wellness, and resilience. He and his guests find comfort by turning towards discomfort, welcoming it, and laughing at it. 

Jason is the youngest of three kids and the proud uncle of his nephew and niece. He was born and raised in Toronto, Canada where he currently lives with his Mom and Dad. On occasion, he helps with the dishes and does his own laundry. In his spare time, he can be found throwing grapes in the air, trying to catch them in his mouth, dropping them, dusting them off, and trying again.

 

 

s8e9 Fibromyalgia and POTs TRANSCRIPT

Lita T  00:08  Hello, and welcome to another episode of podcast dx, the show that brings you interviews with people just like you whose lives were forever changed by a medical diagnosis. I'm Lita, Ron is not with us today.

Jean  00:20  And I'm Jean Marie.

Lita T  00:21  Collectively, we're the hosts of podcast dx. And today's show, we're talking about Fibromyalgia, POTs and chronic fatigue syndrome with Jason Herterich. I hope I'm getting that right. He'll correct me in a minute (laughter) Jason is the host of a podcast called "The Discomfort Zone", and co host of the podcast, "Invisible, Not Broken". He's joining us today from one of our favorite cities, Toronto. Hello, Jason. Thanks for joining us today.

Jason  00:35  You are Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to this.

Jean  00:56  Thanks. Yeah, actually, I just saw Margaret Atwood was posted. She was cleaning up trash outside of her, you know, on along the street in Toronto. And it looked a little bit chilly.

Lita T  01:08  Yeah, it's it's chilly here too.

Jason  01:11  It sure is.

Jean  01:12  Well, Jason, before we get into your diagnosis, and that, I'm just curious what led you to hosting your own podcast.

Jason  01:20  So it was really organic, how it happened, I had fallen really ill in 2016 and 2017. And one of my friends just suggested that I should get into listening to podcasts, I had become very, very ill. And I spent about 22 hours a day in bed. And I couldn't even handle looking at a TV screen,

Jean  01:42   Mhhmm

Jason  01:42   because I had such severe headaches. And so naturally, podcasts you don't have to look at, you can shut your eyes, you can just listen to them, you can tune out for a little bit. And I got really, really into storytelling podcasts especially. And they they were really wonderful in the way that they help expand. Essentially, they allow you to empathize with people at a much deeper level. And I really loved that aspect of it. But I realized that there weren't, there was a very low representation of people who are chronically ill, and disabled in storytelling podcasts. So I just sought to create my own. So I got into so I started in 2017, after I started to recover, and I started producing stories about my own chronic illness experience. And I tried to make them just very immersive stories using sound design  music and sound effects and everything to really try and engage as many people as possible. And so I've been doing that ever since.

Jean  02:46  That's fantastic

Lita T  02:47  Yeah, sounds great.

Jean  02:48  And what are some of your favorite podcasts at the moment?

Jason  02:51  Oh, yeah, I got a whole ton of I got a whole ton right here. Um, yeah, one of my favorite recently has been "Your Hustle". It is Have you guys heard of that before?

Jean  03:01  I, I. ehh... it sounds familiar.

Jason  03:04  Yeah, so it's a podcast that is produced within the walls of San Quentin penitentiary in California. And I don't know about you. But before whenever I think of inmates, they're often depicted as scary criminals who are devoid of any remorse. But really, when you get to hear their stories, you just get to understand them at a deeper level to empathize with them. And it really leaves you with this feeling that anyone is capable of rehabilitation. So that is one of them. Another one that have been hooked on lately "Unlocking Bryson's Brain". And it is a story of a Canadian man who takes listeners inside his family search for a diagnosis, treatment and cure to his son's rare brain disease. So yeah, it's it's really fascinating as like, this really incredible mix of storytelling, medical mystery, disability rights, and gene editing science. And then And then lastly, "How To Be A Girl" is a documentary of a mother raising her transgender daughter. So yeah, just just to keep this brief. At the age of three, her child told her that there was a mistake in her tummy that and that she should have come out as a girl.

Lita T  04:23  Oh wow!

Jason  04:24  So it just yeah, it navigates there. As the girl gets older, she starts going through school playdates. And when the mom has romantic relationships, so they just have very raw conversations. And I think the daughter is is my favorite part of it. It just really goes to show how incredibly wise children can be.

Lita T  04:49  That's amazing.

Jean  04:50  Yeah, those will be adding those three to our list.

Lita T  04:52  Oh, for sure.

Jean  04:54  Yeah.

Lita T  04:54  I love that.

Jason  04:55  Yeah I couldn't, I couldn't recommend them. highly enough.

Lita T  04:58  Love it. Jason, how do you balance living with a chronic illness? Actually several chronic illnesses and hosting your own podcast?

Jason  05:09  Yeah, it's it's an ongoing struggle. What has been most helpful for me is I try to make active decisions throughout the day. So I will leave alarms on my phone to just remind me to pause, whatever I'm doing consciously think about what I will do next and check in with my body see, like, do I need to take a break? Should I go out for a walk? Am I having trouble concentrating? Because usually, that's a sign that my symptoms are starting to kick in? Or, you know, do I have any obligations later in the day that I need to reserve spoons for? So really, it's an ongoing process? I try to get a little bit better at it over time. But yeah, I'm not perfect. (laughter)

Lita T  05:58  Yeah, I can....  I can understand that,

Jason  05:58  it's something that... I continue to struggle with.

Lita T  06:00   yeah, I do the same thing with I use my phone a lot. I have early onset Alzheimer's. And I use my phone constantly to, to remind me to do things. And just to keep me in check and make sure that the day is going smoothly. And I don't end up with anything surprising that really kind of goes be into a tailspin, basically.

Jason  06:25  Yeah, yeah. If you use too much early in the day, it can throw you off,

Lita T  06:29  right.

Jean  06:30   And we also use tech, we have watches that have a light diode that takes your pulse ox and pulse rate on a regular basis. And actually, it vibrates when you're starting when your stress levels are increasing. Or when you've been sedentary too long to kind of give you just that reminder, either to take a deep breath or go take a walk.

Lita T  06:50  You Right, right.

Jason  06:52  Wow, that's, that's actually incredible. I'm gonna have to get the name of that afterwards from you

Lita T  06:56   It's one of the Garmin, I know it's a Garmin, but there are several Garmin, we got it. Yeah, we'll put a link on that for our website,

Jean  07:04  or send you a message. Yep.

Lita T  07:05  Yep. So Jason, I understand that you've been diagnosed with several different really complicated and difficult diagnosis. Fibromyalgia in itself is rough. myalgic encephalitis horrible. And POT's, could you tell us what symptoms lead you to seeking out medical care?

Jason  07:27  Yeah, so this all started out just over nine years ago, it's wild to think it was so long ago, but I was a fourth year student at University studying engineering. And I was very, very active. At the time, I was a triathlete. And, you know, I was about to graduate and had my whole life ahead of me. And then one day during an intramural game of basketball, I caught a rebound, I twisted and pass the ball up court. And in that moment, I strained a muscle in my abdomen called, what is the name of it, intercostal, sorry, brain fog here. I strained my intercostal muscles, and they are muscles that are used for breathing. And so unlike if you break your arm, you can put it in a sling, and you let it recover, and it naturally gets better by itself. But with these muscles, it is really, really painful. And it is it's made even more complicated by the fact that you can't rest and recover from it,

Lita T  08:30  Cause you need to breathe. Right

Jason  08:32  Yeah, it's not easy to treat at all. And so essentially, I had to take a week off of school spent the entire time in bed. And when I went back to school, I was so far behind that, essentially what happened is I my stress levels were so high from having to work so hard. And my pain levels were already really high from the injury. And when you get pain and stress, the two just build on one another, you're more stressed out because you're in pain and you're in more pain, because you're stressed out. So it creates this positive feedback loop. And so over time, my brain just became sensitized to pain. And I as a result as well, I'm not getting any restorative sleep, so I'm just tired all the time. And so it was something I sought medical care for quite a while ago, but it wasn't until so. So the injury happened in 2011. I didn't receive a diagnosis until like 2014. And so yeah, there at that point, they were really really debilitating symptoms.

Jean  09:40  I'm sorry to hear that.

Lita T  09:40  And was that basically the Fibromyalgia that kicked in at that point?

Jason  09:45  Yeah, it was fibromyalgia and myalgic encephalomyelitis as well. I don't think at that point. My POTs symptoms had begun showing themselves my POTs symptoms. I started to I believe, later on in 2015 is when I started I get dizzy and all that. And yeah, it's it's one of those things where I know a lot of these chronic conditions are interconnected. So you catch one, you're more likely to catch another, and, and so on.

Jean  10:13  And so I think because of all the overlapping symptoms, it's hard to get a differential diagnosis. And establish that.

Jason  10:21  Yeah, yeah. Makes it a lot harder

Jean  10:24  and, and you said it took a while to get that diagnosis. What were some of the tests associated with that? And I hear you have a tilt table story for us?

Jason  10:33  I do. Yeah. So I was just very dizzy all the time. And I would find that my heart raced whenever I stood up. And so one day when I was in my neurologists office, he did a quick check. So for your listeners, POTs is characterized by a heart rate increase of 30 beats per minute when you go from lying to standing up. So this was something that my neurologist did a quick check in his office, and I tested positive and this in that test in 2015. And so he referred me for a more comprehensive test called the tilt table test, where essentially, they tap they strap you to a table. And it's, it's slowly adjust from horizontal to vertical. And at that point, my symptoms were very severe when I got in, it was 2016. And just simply lying on the table put me in debilitating pain, even before the test began. I believe my heart rate was around 100 beats per minute, before it even started when Usually, it's around 60. And so they that we started the test, but it's supposed to be a 45 minute test. But 15 minutes in, I was just in such debilitating pain just from being uncomfortable on the board that they actually had to stop the entire test. And I just thought that it was going to be an inconclusive results.

Lita T  12:01  Mhhmm

Jason  12:01   But they ended up sending a report back to my doctor saying that I tested negative for it.

Lita T  12:09  Oh?

Jason  12:09  Which, to me is

Jean  12:10  Not quite the same thing.

Lita T  12:12   Yeah. Yeah.

Jason  12:13  It didn't seem right. And I pleaded with the doctor, you know, I said, I explained to him how they had to stop the test early and how my symptoms had gone haywire before they even started the test. But my neurologist, kind of just discounted what I had said, and he accepted the results. And he completely ignored me. And I think I yeah, I believe anyways, it was only a few months ago, or earlier this year, when I just simply redid that very first test when you just simply go from lying to standing up. And I had the heart rate increase. And a new doctor that I've been seeing a cardiac specialist told me that I do in fact have POTs. So I guess the moral of that entire story was that I I guess, I guess the issue was like the rigidity of the medical system and not stressing the importance of the patient voice there, it was very clear to me that there was systematic error within the test that made the results completely meaningless.

Jean  13:17  I'm sorry to hear that. I also had a tilt table test. And the technician that was performing my test to get me at a baseline for them to start actually was telling me very interesting stories and trying to keep my mind off the fact that we were there for because I think even going in for their test because it it can be a stressful process. And it is like a disconcerting kind of activity to be going through. A good technician is worth their weight in gold because they can try to keep your mind off the fact that you're there for that test and

Lita T  13:57  and she was in pain because

Jean  13:59   right

Lita T  13:59   we had just flown out to California to Stanford for the test and on the landing or just

Jean  14:06  some luggage hit me in the head. It wasn't a big deal

Lita T  14:08  just prior to landing  the the flight attendant open the hatch on top, from where she was sitting and luggage fell out and hit her. And she had already had a neck and a head injury. So but she was tense. Let's say

Jason  14:10  Ouch!

Jean  14:23   But it's vital

Lita T  14:24   she was tense.

Jean  14:25  I think it just shows how important every individual in the medical system is

Lita T  14:29   right

Jean  14:30   And how much of an eff... you know how much they can

Lita T  14:32  put you to ease

Jean  14:33  Yeah, they can put you at ease and it takes someone who really cares about the person, you know, to accomplish that and I think we need more people out there that actually care about people and it does it makes a significant difference.

Lita T  14:46  I'm hoping that all of the future medical people in the world are listening to this podcast

Jean  14:50  we do have a lot of medical students listening

Lita T  14:52  Yes, pay attention to your patient

Jason  14:55  Yes that really is important. Yeah, paying attention to the to the To the individual not just simply seeing them as as a patient. And yeah, I think I believe I've heard the term white coat syndrome.

Lita T  15:10  Uhhuuh

Jason  15:10  My mom was telling me how she always used to test really high on blood pressure tests. Whenever she was in the in the, to see her doctor, and that was simply because just the fact that she was getting it tested would always just stress her out.

Lita T  15:25  Right

Jean  15:26  And it, Yeah. So if you have someone that puts you at ease that that can be very helpful, but inconclusive or incomplete test is not a you know, a completed testing.

Lita T  15:35   No. Right.

Jean  15:36  Sorry that you had to go through that.

Lita T  15:37  Right. Well, I'm glad you finally got it, sorted out.

Jean  15:40  Thank goodness, you know, you advocated for yourself, and were able to find a physician that would listen to you as well.

Lita T  15:45  That's important. Well, I'm not sure if there are misconceptions about POTs. But what would what do you think the most common misconceptions about Fibromyalgia are?

Jason  15:56  I would say that it's all in our heads. I have heard, I've heard that many times. I think that people who are not familiar with chronic illness, have a tendency to discount other people's suffering and their pain and their fatigue levels, simply because it's invisible. And and I think so many people have it in their heads that they just have it in their heads what somebody will look like who is suffering, they mistake what they're familiar with, as acute pain, where it's this very intense feeling. And people are gritting their teeth, with chronic pain, which is something that people have adapted to living with over years and years. And we still experience it all the time. But we're not necessarily showing it. We simply learned to internalize it, and try to focus on how we can best live with it. And then one other big misconception with fibromyalgia. I think a lot of people see it, and a lot of doctors actually think it only affects women. It is predominantly women, but men can develop Fibromyalgia as well. And I'm living proof of that.

Lita T  17:12  Right right

Jean  17:12  Yeah, we have interviewed other other men with fibromyalgia. And we were kind of shocked to hear that. That's the that's a popular misconception,

Lita T  17:22  right

Jean  17:23   Because I never imagined you know, that that would be something that would affect. Yeah, but okay. I have two questions for you. How are you currently being treated? And are your conditions? Is there a in the future? You know, do they anticipate that these are things that can be like, Is there a cure out there in the future?

Jason  17:42  Yeah, so in terms of being treated, I know it's different for everybody. But what I have found most effective is simply a self treatment plan. So for me, I focus on eating a good diet, lots of vegetables and fruit. I getting the right medication for me that that took many years to find the right one for me, mind being amitriptyline. Everybody, things work differently for everybody. And then also incorporating some mindfulness where I just work, breathing, paying attention to my body sensations, tuning into my body throughout the day. And then, for me movement as well. That's been really huge. For a while I was doing Tai Chi, and I was even doing a waterbase tai chi, they had a program down at the hospital, I went to where we got to go through all the movements in this group atmosphere. And I found that really empowering as well. Just knowing that other you're in the pool with other people with chronic illness, and you're all going through the same thing together. So yeah, just overall that and having a good sleep hygiene, I turned off all my devices an hour or two before bed every single night and I try to just relax, I will even turn off all the lights in my on my floor and just have candlelight so that I can help relax my mind.

Lita T  19:09  Well that's good

Jason  19:10  So those are Yeah, those are the main treatment plans. And then in terms of fibromyalgia, Fibromyalgia being curable. I know that a small portion of patients do experience full remission. I don't personally focus on curing my illness, it would be really nice if it happened. But I remember my occupational therapist, one once told me not to make dead people goals and dead people can't feel any pain. So I can't if I can't fully control how my pain levels are I try to focus on what I can influence and work to be coming. I guess just work towards improving functionality. And then I've generally found that when my functionality does improve that my pain level usually follow suits as well.

Jean  20:02  That's fantastic.

Lita T  20:02  Yeah, that's good...

Jean  20:03  that's very inspiring.

Lita T  20:04  Right Right, for sure.

Jason  20:05  Thank you.

Lita T  20:07  Do you have any advice for someone that has been recently diagnosed with a chronic illness?

Jason  20:12  Yeah, I think finding your social support system is really, really key. For anyone with a chronic illness, it can be very, very isolating. I think a lot of us who are chronically ill have friends drop out of our lives for whatever reason. It's not personal, it's not a reflection of you. And I've just found that it's best to focus on whoever has stayed. And just let them know regularly how much their support means to you and get involved with the online community I found that can be helpful as well.

Lita T  20:48  Well, that's good advice.

Jean  20:49  Yeah. And it sounds like you've established a really nice rapport with everyone in your podcast network as well. And you guys have a, you know, a great group there and produce some really quality podcasts.

Jason  21:03  Yeah, that's been wonderful. Just connecting with so many people connecting with listeners hearing from them. Yeah.

Jean  21:09  And what other role have your friends and family taken over the course of this journey? I know your parents have been very important to you, right?

Jason  21:18  Yeah, they've been super

Jean  21:19   it was a very leading question.

Lita T  21:21   (laughter)

Jason  21:21  Yeah, yeah. they've they've been huge. My parents. Now I fell very ill, as I mentioned earlier, around 2016. And around that time, I didn't have the ability to even take care of all my medical stuff, like getting prepared for appointments, keeping track of all that stuff, going to pick up all my medication, doing my research on all the different medications or the different tests that I was being sent for. So really, my mom ended up handling, essentially, all of that, in addition to being my full time caregivers for a couple of years, and I mean, even now, I've improved quite a bit. But even now, I have to rely on them quite a bit for meal preparation and other tasks, when I'm not able to handle them myself. And then, in terms of friends, oh, sorry, I should also just mention my I've got a lot of other family members who have been really great, especially my sister, Lisa, she's been amazing and always checked in on me whenever I was really feeling down. And then in terms of friends. I, yeah, I am incredibly blessed in that area too, in that when I was really sick. And there's a period of about eight months where I didn't, I only left bed very infrequently, and was very, very depressed, had thoughts of suicidal ideation, and all that. And there wasn't a span of time of more than two days, when I didn't get a visitor coming by, to just check in on me, and to come hang out with me. It's not the most exciting thing for my friends to come and do and, and sit by my bedside. And often I would barely even be able to contribute to the conversation, it would be them mostly doing most of the talking. So they were really my lifeline. And they were a huge reason why I was able to keep going and until I was able to receive the proper supports to allow me to recover.

Lita T  23:31  That's excellent.

Jean  23:32  Yeah that's, that's wonderful. I'm glad that you have those people in your life and that they've been so supportive. Jason, with the pandemic and everything that's been going on, you said you used to, you know, be able to go to the gym at the hospital. How have How have things change over the course of the past year? And what modifications Have you made to, you know, still stay active and do things? And, you know, in keep in contact with friends and family, when everything has been in lockdown?

Jason  24:01  Yeah, it's been a lot harder. I've been doing zoom like a lot of other people for keeping in touch with people, for just keeping in touch with friends, but I do get zoom fatigue like everybody else, probably quicker than everybody else just due to having headaches and everything. Yeah, in terms of what else? I've been lots of phone calls. I've been doing social distance walks where I'll meet up with friends and we'll just all walk six feet away from each other

Jean  24:33  (giggle) Okay

Jason  24:33   six feet or more.

Jean  24:34   Okay.

Jason  24:35  And that's been a really good way to just keep in touch while also getting some exercise getting some fresh air. Yeah, not being able to go to the pool has been kind of tough. That's one of the things I really miss. That was a huge part of remaining social and, and all that and remaining active as well. And yeah, yeah, I've been fortunate I mean, I'm in Toronto here. For a good part of the pandemic, I have been able to have a small social circle. So I've had my brother, his wife and their kids within our social circle. And so yeah, being able to hang out with like a three year old and a two year old as they always make you feel young, and that is really improved my spirits.

Jean  25:24  Yeah, there, children can be, and and pets and everything can be a great distraction.

Lita T  25:28  Wait a minute, children and pets, you can't ball them up in the same thing.

Jean  25:32  Well we do chicken therapy, where we go to see the chickens,

Lita T  25:35 yeah we do, we do

Jean  25:36  nothing makes you laugh harder than watching, you know, chickens fight over a tomato, because it kind of looks like you know, some sort of weird horror movie and yeah, okay.

Lita T  25:45  (laughter)

Jean  25:46  Okay, sorry, I'm, we're getting way off topic.

Lita T  25:48  (laughter)

Jean  25:50  Jason, what additional advice or tips do you have for our listeners.

Jason  25:54  So, I would say, to just do your best job advocating for yourself. Or if you can't find a family member or friends who can, or friends who can, our medical system isn't... that the chronically ill often fall through the cracks of our medical system. So unfortunately, you do need to do some of that work yourself in terms of do your research before appointments, come prepared to every appointment with a summary of your recent medical history, and any questions you have for your doctors and any potential tests that you'd like to request. So you really have to become your own advocate there. And another thing is just find something that makes you happy, I know that our lives don't look the same way that they did prior to becoming ill. But it doesn't mean that I guess over time, we can develop the ability to adapt and find joy in different ways that we never could have imagined before becoming chronically ill. So yeah, find whatever, do whatever makes you happy.

Lita T  27:08  That's great.

Jean  27:09  Yeah wonderful advice

Lita T  27:10  right. Have you always lived in Canada?

Jason  27:14  I always have. Yeah,

Jean  27:15  You can hear from his accent

Jason  27:16  I live with my parents.

Lita T  27:17  No, no, I  was just curious. Because, you know, like, now we're kind of comparing apples and oranges, you know, the medical system in the United States compared to the medical system in Canada. And I think that we have the same problems here. And it is very important to always go to your doctor's office prepared. And like you're saying, do your research ahead of time. Because you know, you go to a doctor's office nowadays, and you're given like a minute and a half,

Jason  27:44  Yeah

Lita T  27:44   you know, you don't have a lot of screen time with your doctor.

Jason  27:47 Yes

Lita T  27:47  So you have more you can do ahead of time, the better.

Jason  27:51  Yeah, and I've noticed that doctors really appreciate it when you can give them like a 30 second briefing on everything that's happened with with your health, since they've last seen you it's a way for them to digest everything really quickly, and then be more efficient with your time. So I think that they really appreciate it as well.

Lita T  28:11  Right. Right. That That could be a career field.

Jean  28:14  Well, and I think

Lita T  28:15   No, I mean, like just just in order to teach people how to go to the doctor,

Jean  28:20  right? Well, maybe it could be included in your high school health class.

Lita T  28:24  Right. Okay. (laughter)

Jean  28:25  And I think nowadays, a lot of technology can also come into play where you can track your, you know, your headaches, and you can track your symptoms, and you can actually give your your physician or healthcare provider an actual, you know, a synopsis and a screenshot of what is actually happening with you on a day to day basis, because when it is a chronic illness, I think it's hard to quantify it. And I think

Jason  28:34  Yeah,

Jean  28:48  and things can help.

Jason  28:50  I think that stuff is is so great, too. And I've noticed, I noticed that before I started doing any of this, like tracking my medical history, I would go into an appointment. And so often, it would depend what I would say to the doctor would depend on how my day was going. If I was feeling depressed that day, it would just seem like everything is so completely bleak. And I would send that message to the doctor, whereas like, they would get a much more accurate depiction of what my recent medical history was if I was able to Yeah, like as you were saying, go in with any kind of metrics or anything that you've been tracking over time.

Lita T  29:26  Sure, sure. Well, Jason, how can our listeners learn more about you and your podcast?

Jason  29:33  Well, they can listen to my podcast "Discomfort Zone" on whichever podcast app they use. They can also go to "Invisible Not Broken dot com" to find my podcast, as well as all the other shows in our network and you can find me on social media. My handle is D Zone Podcast.

Lita T  29:52  Okay, excellent.

Jean  29:53  And you guys have a wonderful website and a well rounded collection of podcasts. So we're very impressed. And we're hoping to one day grow up and be more like you.  (Eh Ha!) Maybe? (laughter) Well, at least

Jason  30:06  You guys are great the way you are.

Lita T  30:08  At least we're staying active.

Jean  30:09  Yeah. Okay,

Lita T  30:10   mentally. (laughter)  Well, Jason, thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us today.

Jean  30:15  Thank you, Jason.

Jason  30:17  Thank you so much for having me.

Lita T  30:18  You're welcome. If our listeners have any questions or comments related to today's show, they can contact us at podcast [email protected] through our website, podcast, dx.com and Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, or Instagram.

Ron  30:32  Please keep in mind that this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment, and before undertaking a new health care regime, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in taking it because it's something you've heard on this podcast

Jean  30:57  till next week.