Pop Culture and Piety: Living for God in a Media-Saturated World

In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dive deep into the intersection of pop culture, entertainment, and the Christian life. They explore how Christians can engage with leisure and media in a way that glorifies God, applying biblical principles like those found in 1 Corinthians 10:31 and Ecclesiastes 3. The hosts emphasize the importance of balancing Christian liberty and holiness, while also recognizing the practical role of rest and recreation in human flourishing. Through personal anecdotes and theological insights, they provide listeners with a framework for discerning entertainment choices, encouraging believers to enjoy God’s good gifts without compromising their faith.

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Key Takeaways:

• Entertainment is a Gift from God: Leisure and entertainment, when approached rightly, are part of God’s common grace meant to refresh and restore us.
• Biblical Principles for Consumption: 1 Corinthians 10:31 reminds Christians that all activities, including entertainment, should glorify God. If an activity cannot do so, it may be unlawful.
• Christian Liberty and Prudence: Decisions about pop culture often fall under the domain of Christian liberty, constrained by wisdom and prudence rather than legalistic rules.
• The Importance of Rest: Rest is not just about recharging for productivity; it is a God-given means of worship and human flourishing in its own right.
• Guarding Against Sinful Influences: Christians should be cautious of consuming media that promotes sin, as it can subtly shape their worldview and lead them astray.
• Personal Convictions and Context Matter: What is permissible for one believer may not be wise or beneficial for another, depending on individual struggles and contexts.
• Recreation Should Point Back to God: Whether through beauty, creativity, or storytelling, entertainment can lead Christians to worship God when consumed with discernment.

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Entertainment as a Gift from God

Tony and Jesse emphasize that entertainment, when properly enjoyed, is a part of God’s common grace. This means that activities like watching a movie, playing a video game, or reading a novel are not inherently sinful but can serve as vehicles for rest and refreshment. Drawing from Ecclesiastes 3, they highlight that God has ordained seasons for both work and rest. True rest, they argue, is not about escaping responsibilities but about enjoying God’s gifts in ways that glorify Him and restore our energy to serve others. When approached with discernment, even "secular" forms of entertainment can reflect God’s creativity and goodness.

Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment

The hosts discuss how 1 Corinthians 10:31 provides a litmus test for media consumption: "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." This principle challenges believers to ask whether their entertainment choices align with God’s glory. For example, content that promotes or glamorizes sin—whether through violence, sexual immorality, or blasphemy—should give Christians pause. However, they also note that some depictions of sin in fiction can serve a redemptive purpose, such as illustrating the consequences of sin or the beauty of redemption. The key is to thoughtfully evaluate whether the media being consumed inclines the heart toward holiness or pulls it away from God.

Christian Liberty and Prudence

Tony and Jesse stress the importance of Christian liberty in deciding on entertainment choices, while cautioning against legalism. They explain that Christian liberty does not mean a license to sin but rather the freedom to make God-honoring decisions in areas where Scripture does not provide explicit commands. Prudence and wisdom must guide these decisions. For instance, a particular TV show or game may be permissible for one believer but harmful for another, depending on their personal struggles or circumstances. This underscores the need for self-awareness and reliance on the Holy Spirit to discern what is spiritually beneficial.

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Quotes:

1. "Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. If we cannot glorify God in an activity, it’s likely unlawful for us as Christians." – Jesse Schwamb
2. "Recreation is not just about recharging for productivity; it has its own value in glorifying God and enjoying His good gifts." – Tony Arsenal
3. "Every story worth telling reflects, in some way, the greatest story ever told: redemption through Christ." – Jesse Schwamb

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Full Transcript:

[00:00:30] Introduction and Episode Overview

[00:00:30] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 457 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.

[00:00:37] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast where sound doctrine meets brotherly love. Hey brother.

[00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So we're in a whole series of little one-off conversations, all kinds of things that just pop into our head, or we've had on a list somewhere that we thought, you know what?

[00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Someday we should talk about that. And I think we've got another great. Conversation coming up on this episode, we're gonna get into a little bit about how Christians should interact with and consume pop culture maybe, and especially things like entertainment. And I know that there are gonna be people out there thinking, wow, these guys are gonna do what reform people always do.

[00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: They're just gonna come out into their lawn, they're gonna shake their fists angrily at the sky, they're gonna yell at the birds. It might not be that way, loved ones, but you're gonna have to wait. We're gonna talk about it. It's gonna be good. We're gonna get after it. We all do it. Everybody loves a bit of a to consume pop culture.

[00:01:31] Jesse Schwamb: Is it possible it might be somewhat of a gift that God has given us? Who knows? Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but we'll get to that. But first, let's affirm with or denying against something in the world. So what have you got for us on this episode, Tony?

[00:01:45] Tony's Frustrating Customer Service Experience

[00:01:45] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna keep mine super short. It was a frustrating customer service experience, uh, that I had today.

[00:01:52] Tony Arsenal: In general, I, I have, uh, Comcast or Xfinity Internet in general. I'm actually very pleased. Their service. Um, I, I actually find them to be responsive. Um, I've managed to get a decent price. I don't have Comcast television, so that's probably part of it. Um, but I, my cable modem. Slash router, which I've had, I don't know, probably for like eight years.

[00:02:13] Tony Arsenal: Um, it finally died, so I bit the bullet and bought a brand new one. And those man, those things have gotten expensive and um, you know, it's supposed to be a super easy installation. You plug it in, you do the little thing on the app and it didn't work. So I had to connect with customer service through the app, and.

[00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: It seemed like everything was going fine. And then all of a sudden I get a link in my text message and the lady who's chatting with me on the thing says, well just, just scroll down and click on where it says accept and then hit okay. And I was like, that seems sketchy. So I read it and she was, she had sent me a link to change my internet service.

[00:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Uh, she was giving me a 90, an $80 promotional price for the first year. Uh, but then it went up to $140 after the first year. Wow. So I went back to the chat app and I said, I'm sorry, I, I must have miscommunicated something. I don't need to change my service. I just need to activate my modem. She said, oh, no, no, you're not changing your service.

[00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: And I said, no, I, I definitely am. She goes, let me explain this to you. And she went through and tried, like, she went through and she's like, your speed is this and you're paying this. And I said, and I said, with all due respect, I'm not stupid. I can see that you're trying to change my service and I'm just not interested.

[00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: And I had to fight with her for like 10 minutes before I finally said, just activate my modem, please. I'm not interested. Full stop. So I, I guess I'm just denying. I get, I get it. Like, you gotta try to upsell. I used to be in sales. I don't have any problem with you trying to upsell. I, I don't even necessarily have a problem with you trying to be clever and like, you know, intentional about how you upsell.

[00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Like there are ways that you can do that without being deceptive. This was just deceptive. So I'm not denying Comcast. I'm pleased with my service. I'm denying this particular person and this really just underhanded tactic. It was really, really upsetting. I mean,

[00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: there is nothing like good customer service, right?

[00:04:04] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the converse of that is what a blessing it is, and it's kind of a lesson to all of us and how we treat one another. That is whether we're providing the service or we ourselves are consuming it. It is just such a blessing. It's like so easy and so light when you get somebody who really wants to help you.

[00:04:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And. You know, I would not have changed my service, but I can imagine that somebody who was looking and was interested, if she had just said straightforwardly, like your internet that you have is far slower than the modem that you're, you're installing, right? Um, we can get you a faster internet speed and give you a, a large discount for the first year.

[00:04:42] Tony Arsenal: Are you interested in that? I think a good portion of people would just say yes. Even if they didn't think it through, they would just say, oh yeah, sure. Faster speed, less money. They, they wouldn't think it through. That's not deceptive. If you present an option, honestly, to a consumer and they take it and they didn't understand the terms, that's not deception.

[00:04:58] Tony Arsenal: That's on them as the consumer for not thinking through what they're purchasing. This was just straight out, like, don't read it, just click on it, it's fine. Totally underhanded, deceptive. Um, and, and you know, I work in. Sort of a kind of customer service and I just can't imagine ever doing something that shady and calling it customer service.

[00:05:15] Tony Arsenal: I was, I was very disappointed.

[00:05:17] Jesse Schwamb: But I mean, everybody has customers, right? Yeah. Everybody has somebody they're responsible to, and everybody has people to whom they should be responsible in the kind of care. Whatever you provide to somebody, whether it's your family, it's in your church, it's in your job, so, right.

[00:05:30] Jesse Schwamb: I like that. It's a good reminder because again, there's nothing like walking away from experience and being like, wow, that was so easy, or that person was so good to help me. Yeah. Or like they really got me to the end that I was looking for and they did it and I felt better afterwards than I did before I called.

[00:05:43] Jesse Schwamb: That should be like our goal, like what does great look like in every interaction that we can have with somebody.

[00:05:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?

[00:05:52] Jesse's Affirmation: The Plana App for Plant Care

[00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: I'm going back to the app. Well, and by that was a really weird saying of just, I'm gonna affirm with another app. So I really love a good house plant, but I'm no good at the house plants.

[00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: I really like the way they look. It's a lot of pressure with house plans. Maybe people feel this way. Maybe you've not purchased a house plant or been like, I can't be that person. So here's something that I can confirm with for you. Loved one, it's a app called Plana. It's a Swedish plant care app, and it's designed to help both like novice people like me and I guess really experienced plant owners keep their house and garden plants healthy, which I know sounds super boring, but hear me out on this.

[00:06:27] Jesse Schwamb: This is what's cool about this. It offers smart, personalized care reminders for things like watering, fertilizing, misting, repotting, and it has all these things where if you, there's paid subscription for this as well, which I do not have, but I looked at all the options. There's some super cool things like you can use your phone to sense where your plan is sitting, how much light it's getting to really tell you, is this the right spot for my plant?

[00:06:49] Jesse Schwamb: Because you know, like some plants are like, we need partial sunlight and partial shade and afternoon sun and direct sun, and you need to water me, but not too much and not so often, but just the right amount. It's a lot of pressure. So it's got all these fun features in it, including like an AI doctor. So you can take a look or a picture of your plant rather, and not only will it describe what plants you have, of course, but it will help you say like, Hey, this thing is not healthy.

[00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what you should do. So the plant app is, might be your foray into feeling more confident about having some greenery in your house.

[00:07:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, I could kill a plastic plant. I could kill like a fake plant, uh, without trying, uh, but I might check this out. You, you've seen my, my home. You've been here?

[00:07:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Um, my, my house is, it's a, a mobile home and so it's, it's just one long line and it's situated like almost directly east, west. So I get direct sunlight over the top of the house pretty much the entire day. And we have really beautiful, um. Violet cone plants and some other like lilies on one end of the house, um, that the previous owner planted.

[00:07:46] Tony Arsenal: They're very beautiful, but um, they just get baked in the sun and there's gotta be something that can be done to sort of help them through this. Maybe it's more water or something like that. So maybe I'll check this out and see if that can help. 'cause they're not, they're not doing great. Um, they, they didn't bloom very well this year.

[00:08:00] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm wondering if it might be, I dunno, it's been kind of dry, um, this part of the year, more than usual, so I'll check that out. That sounds like a good recommendation. There's a couple of different apps. This one sounds good.

[00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, there's certainly a lot of stuff that you can get free in it.

[00:08:14] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, they want to upsell you like you just talked about. They're, no, no, they're no Comcast, but they definitely would like you to purchase all their other features, and I bet for the right person, it's totally worth it. But I feel so much more confident now. Mainly just the watering. If you surprised how like much pressure.

[00:08:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, like aloe plants and also I'm learning the names of my plants finally, which makes me feel more connected. This, this is, listen, this is like the app to help you take dominion in your house over house plants, which sounds like the lowest form of taking dominion, but honestly still shows how complex and complicated life can be and how God has made everything in this really wonderful way.

[00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm feeling more empowered to love my plants and to hopefully keep them growing. I was gonna say for generations, but I doubt that I'll be passing on links, plants for generations, but hopefully getting just lots more greenery into our living spaces, which is always super fun.

[00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, I would like to have more plants, but I just, with between toddlers and dogs and my ability to kill anything green that is in my home, uh, I don't think it would be good.

[00:09:19] Tony Arsenal: That's your, your sister who is My wife does a good job with plants, but even the, yeah, she does, even, even that the plants die just because they're around me. I'm not sure what it is. I have like a, I hear it, listen, an aura of some sort that just kills plants.

[00:09:32] Discussing Christians and Pop Culture

[00:09:32] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's difficult sometimes to grow in soil, which is, I, one of the things I presume Christians often feel like when they're in the culture and when, mm-hmm.

[00:09:41] Jesse Schwamb: Do. Do you like that segue? We're so good with this. I do. And when you are consuming, let me say pop culture, or you find yourself in a place where you want entertainment and you want to rest, and I think if you're a Christian for any length of time, you start to ask yourself, okay, so what's my place in all of this?

[00:09:59] Jesse Schwamb: And what's interesting when I thought about this topic, which you graciously put forward for us, was that I think several times we've mentioned kind of cultural things often in the affirmation and denial section. Yeah. Where we've. Maybe come hard alongside something and said, this seems good. And other times we've definitely said, this seems very, very bad.

[00:10:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. But we've never really had just a pretty honest conversation about, okay, so how does the Christian discern, what is the Christian's role in making that discernment? And how can we, like our house plants grow and flourish in that kind of environment to such a degree that we are actually bearing fruit by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[00:10:36] Jesse Schwamb: And yet, of course, separate. From that culture in which we still find ourselves.

[00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think it bears saying, um, much of popular culture, media, whatever it might be, a lot of it is going to be a matter of Christian prudence and liberty. And I think it's important to say that because I think, you know, we'll talk about, we'll probably talk about like principles we use to try to determine whether we, you know, individually or, or whatever.

[00:11:04] Tony Arsenal: We're going to watch something or listen to something, but. The, the Bible doesn't say like thou shalt, and I'm gonna say this example, and it's a little bit ironic because this is actually a show that I think is pretty black and white. But it, it's not like the Bible says, thou shalt not watch Game of Thrones.

[00:11:20] Tony Arsenal: Right. Um. Right. Like thou shalt not. Listen to, I don't know who the kids are listening to. Britney Spears like tells you when The last time I listened to popular music was, is Britney Spears is the name on my mind. But like thou shalt not listen to, I dunno, Paramore, I don't know name. Name your pop culture band.

[00:11:37] Tony Arsenal: The Bible doesn't give us explicit instructions about specific bands. Movies, shows, insert, pop, you know, novels, whatever it might be. It does give us some wisdom principles. And then of course, there's God's moral law, uh, but even God's moral law does not. Necessarily apply directly to every pop culture choice we might make.

[00:12:04] Tony Arsenal: So I'm sure Jesse and I don't have identical opinions. I'm gonna guess that our thoughts are probably pretty close just because, you know, we're influenced by the same people and we, we are running in the same broader theological circles, but they're probably not identical. There are probably things that Jesse would watch that I'd go, oh, I don't know if that's such a great thing for me.

[00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: And there's probably things I would feel comfortable with that Jesse might say, eh, I'm not so sure about that. This is usually a matter of Christian liberty constrained by Christian prudence and wisdom. So before we get into any of the nitty gritty or any specific talk of anything particular, I wanna get that out there because yes, we have to be wise, we have to.

[00:12:44] Tony Arsenal: Apply God's law, but we are not able to bind other people's conscience and you are not able to bind other people's conscience based on your own particular opinion about something or your own interpretation of how the Bible is to be applied to a particular decision. Um. You know, again, you can speak into a situation.

[00:13:03] Tony Arsenal: You, especially if you have a relationship with someone, you can say, Hey, I don't think this is healthy. I don't think this is in conformity with God's law, but at the end of the day, that is between that Christian and God as to whether or not they are applying God's law appropriately and, and in to an extent, and to a great extent between them and their elders.

[00:13:21] Tony Arsenal: Right? The elders have a, a different role of authority in a, in a Christian's life than other Christians do. And

[00:13:27] Jesse Schwamb: it might be worth saying as we begin that we're kind of talking about this, I think in part because we all feel that pull to consume pop culture, and what I kind of teased at the beginning is this idea, is it possible that, I think we're really speaking about consuming that in a kind of a way of entertainment of like rest and relaxation.

[00:13:45] Jesse Schwamb: Principally there. There are other reasons I think as well, and that might be to edify, to educate, but I think principally when we feel this compulsion to say, well, I like you, just give great examples. Listen to music, watch a sporting event, watch tv, read something fiction or nonfiction. I think what we're after there is this idea that we want to rest and that understanding that entertainment is a part of the rest that God intends for us to enjoy from our labors is by itself, full stop, a legitimate thing.

[00:14:13] Jesse Schwamb: So the question is. A little bit more nuanced. Where is that line? You already gave, I think a pretty good example of something that you and I would agree on would say that that's a bridge to fight across. Don't watch that thing, right? Yeah, do something else. But the question is how did we get to that place in making that judgment?

[00:14:28] Jesse Schwamb: And is there a place in there where we would say, well, the Bible is an explicit about, let's say certain medium or even like specific things within that medium that it is outspoken enough that we ought to say. No, we will not do that. So I think this is what we're after in part, is this proper use of entertainment involving, of course, analyzing worldviews, appreciating elements of beauty and creativity, acknowledging reflections of truth.

[00:14:53] Jesse Schwamb: But that also that in some way, all of this is God's gift to us. That while the Bible does not give us a great deal of explicit statements about how believers are to view entertainment, there is much we can draw out to scripture by way of good and necessary consequence to borrow language from somewhere else.

[00:15:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:15:11] Applying Biblical Principles to Entertainment Choices

[00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: And I also think too, like this is a question that often is presented as very simple and very like cut and dry, but it can be a lot more complicated than you think. And here's an example, and we don't have to get into this particular example, but let's do it. You know, I think a lot of times people, um, will take the example of blasphemy.

[00:15:32] Tony Arsenal: Right, and a show that is, or a, a video game, whatever it is, content that is intentionally blaspheming, God is something that at a bare minimum, Christians should be very wary of participating in and consuming just because it, it's something that openly dishonors God is probably not something Christians should be eager to participate in or to consume, but.

[00:15:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, there, there are instances where a, a show or a, a video game or a book contains a fictionalized blast swimming of God that actually may serve the greater purpose of glorifying God. So if you think of like, um. Think of a, a book or a a movie where there is a character who is a non-Christian, and over the course of the book, they are shown to be blaspheming God, and then they experience a conversion.

[00:16:24] Tony Arsenal: And the purpose of the, the purpose of the book is to glorify God through this conversion redemption story. That it character in that fictionalized universe is blasphemy God within that universe, right? Or within that fictionalized story. But the purpose of that blasphemy is actually to serve the greater purpose of glorifying God.

[00:16:46] Tony Arsenal: So that's not to say that automatically anything like that gets a pass, right? That can be done well, that can be done poorly. That can be done in a way that actually glorifies God. It can be done in a way that doesn't actually hit the mark. But it's not as simple as to say, this character in this show.

[00:17:00] Tony Arsenal: Engaged in blasphemy. Therefore, we should never consume that show. We have to do some actual thinking and some actual analysis of what's going on in order to. Understand whether or not it actually is violating God's law. Now there are probably some things, um, you know, like graphic sex scenes. There's really no reason, um, for Christians to feel drawn to shows that contain that.

[00:17:25] Tony Arsenal: Again, this is, this is, um, I, I, at this point in my life and I, in earlier periods in my life, I might have been more black and white on this. I am not here to tell you what you can and can't watch. That's not my role. I'm not the Holy Spirit. I'm not your pastor. I'm not any of the persons or people who have an obligation to tell you what is or isn't, right?

[00:17:46] Tony Arsenal: Like I'm not that person. But I cannot think of personally a reason why a Christian would, would need to, or should ever participate in like enjoying a show that contains graphic sex scenes. Um. The people making those have to sin in order to make those scenes right. So there are, there are things we should consider.

[00:18:12] Tony Arsenal: Are kind of always off board, right? It's always off board to do physical harm to somebody in the service of making a movie, right? So if you have a movie where people are, are actively trying to hurt each other in order to produce the film, I'm not sure that we should participate in that. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I knew that was going on in a film.

[00:18:28] Tony Arsenal: I don't, I don't, you know, again, other Christians might, and we can have a conversation about that, but we have to think about those things. Do the actors. Do the people who are creating the content, do they have to sin in order to create it? If that, if the answer is yes, we as Christians, I think should be extremely, extremely wary of, of even watching or consuming those things.

[00:18:49] Tony Arsenal: So those are the kinds of questions and situations that I think need to be list like thought about as we approach pop culture. But I also think, Jesse, you know, you made the point to that. Popular culture, entertainment broadly is a gift from God for us to enjoy. Right? And it's okay to enjoy it. It's okay for us to participate in that.

[00:19:09] Tony Arsenal: You know, we're not, we're not the people who are gonna say to you like, well, you know, every minute you spend, uh, reading, I don't know, uh, reading will of the many, every minute you spend reading Will of the many you could spend witnessing to people, right? So therefore, you should never read Will of the many or The Hobbit or whatever it might be.

[00:19:27] Tony Arsenal: Um, but we should think carefully about what we consume, how much of it we consume, when we consume it, all those are questions that the Christian needs to ask themselves.

[00:19:35] Jesse Schwamb: I agree. I think the broad test here is actually not that difficult to comprehend. It's probably more that we sometimes hesitate to apply it because we're afraid of what it might mean for the stuff that we're consuming.

[00:19:46] Jesse Schwamb: So again, like ceasing from our work in order to rest holds us together like that, that is something that God gives us as a pattern relaxation that we should take joy in. It must be the right amounts of lawful entertainment or consumption of all of this stuff in pop culture, but it is there. I think like even God gives it our own cultures as a means for us to find that kind of rest and to find some comradery and solidarity even with those in whom we interact and live with.

[00:20:13] Jesse Schwamb: I think all of that's fine. Like you've said, it gets a little tricky when we start thinking about, well, where is that appropriate line? What is our conviction? But I think part of the problem with that is that we might not be seeking out conviction for ourselves. We not be asking because we hate to find that there is conviction in things that we're watching because there's gonna be a lot of things'.

[00:20:31] Jesse Schwamb: That society's gonna be preoccupied with for entertainment for its own sake. And again, it's an indicator that everybody, men and women, even children, are seeking rest from the burden of their work and that rest is okay. Even that itself, like you're saying, Tony, it's interesting. I think so much we're gonna come back to is this idea of it.

[00:20:47] Jesse Schwamb: Is, are we redeeming what we're doing in this process? Are we being not just thoughtful about discerning, adjudicating, or interrogating what we're watching and listening and reading, but as we do it, are we thoughtful people? Are we seeing the themes even in those joyous things that we find as entertainment that draw us back to the goodness of God that explains something about the world he's created or his own character finding?

[00:21:10] Jesse Schwamb: Of course, that in every story is just a reflection of the greatest story ever told. Like, yeah, all of those themes, all the things we are drawn to that we gravitate towards. That move us. All of those things still come from God. And so therefore, even our entertainment can serve this purpose of not just alleviating our minds and bodies from the burden of ongoing labor in a fallen world, but can also draw, draw us back to God's common grace and his particular grace for his people who are always sinners.

[00:21:34] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the the first test. I think it's the most simple one. And everybody's gonna throw their listening devices at the wall because it's the one that's the most straightforward. It's the one you might've been thinking you're gonna get to eventually, and let's just get it out of the way. I don't say that because it's not worthwhile.

[00:21:49] Jesse Schwamb: I say it because it's exactly the kind of worthwhile test that we should apply, and it applies perfectly in every situation. And that's the Apostle Paul setting out in one Corinthians 10 31. Here it is. This is like. You know, top 20 reform verses whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

[00:22:07] Jesse Schwamb: So the beauty of this is I think just first pass, first blush, top of the house. If we cannot engage in an entertaining activity in such a way as to glorify God, then it's just unlawful. And by way of contrast, if you can, then we're justified in viewing it as a gift of God's common grace. I, I just throw it out there to start with.

[00:22:26] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that it's not that we found that this particular test has been tried and left wanting, but rather we haven't tried it very well. Oftentimes. Yeah. At least for my own sake. And instead we say, well, the Bible just isn't clear. But if you're, watch your point, Tony. If you're watching something that is gratuitous in any way, and you stop and say.

[00:22:44] Jesse Schwamb: Am I glorifying God in the consumption of this? I think it's really difficult to make a strong argument that in some way you are actively, not just passively and saying like, well, it's okay and there's gonna be a redeeming story plot in here somewhere, I hope. But are we actively, whenever, whenever we're doing or we're consuming these things, are we actually glorifying God?

[00:23:02] Jesse Schwamb: Is God glorified in. What's happening with my mind, my thoughts, my body, my eyes, my conversations, how this shapes me, how this changes my worldview. If we have to answer that God is not glorified there, then to my view, it's unlawful. And I think also in the eyes of the Apostle Paul.

[00:23:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.

[00:23:20] Personal Convictions and Christian Liberty

[00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think something that is important to, um.

[00:23:24] Tony Arsenal: Comment on and think about when we sort of apply that test, that test really has more to do with what's going on in our heart. Yes. When we are consuming any particular part, you know, any particular media than it necessarily has to do with the media itself. I think there are some things, um, that. Just cannot be consumed to the glory of God.

[00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: Right? You can't watch pornography to the glory of God, like you just can't do it. Um, you can't, you can't watch people murder each other for, you know, to the glory of God. But the vast majority of things that are out there, um, the, the, the question you're asking is not primarily grounded in the content itself.

[00:24:07] Tony Arsenal: It's, it's grounded in. What the content does to us and in us and how we process it. And I think that's why I, you know, I always wanna say for most things, this goes back to Christian Liberty and. Christian Liberty is not a license to sin. It's, it's a freedom to, um, to obey, right? It's a freedom and it's a range of possibilities to obey God in different ways, in different situations, rather than some tightly constrained, tightly restricted behavioral code, right?

[00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: There is a law. God gives us a law. We talked about this at length when we did the 10 commandment series. He gives us a law, but this law is a set of 10 principles for godly living. Not a, an exhaustive list of do this, don't do that. Right? So the seventh commandment, you know, for media. Is this inclining my mind towards chastity and purity of thought, right?

[00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: For those of us who are married, is this likely to, um, create a barrier in my relationship with my wife, or is this likely to enhance the relationship I have with my wife? Is this. Particular thing I'm doing, this video game that I play, is this likely to draw my attention away from my children when they need me?

[00:25:19] Tony Arsenal: Or is it something that I have that is likely to increase my ability to pay attention to my children? Or am I able to properly balance the demands that my children have and the needs my children have while I still play this video game, just as an example. So we can still use those 10 principles to help guide us, but the way that those.

[00:25:38] Tony Arsenal: The way that the law is applied to these questions and how it is, is gonna be unique, I think almost, almost across the board for things. It's gonna be unique to each individual, right? One person may be able to, yeah, like my big thing and I like, okay, I'm just gonna put this out there. I'm just gonna lay myself bare here.

[00:25:55] Tony Arsenal: If I could say that I have one actual real addiction in life, it's probably World of Warcraft, and I know that sounds probably really silly, but even me saying and saying the phrase World of Warcraft, in my mind I'm like, could I figure out a way that I could go back in and play that game? Like they call it World of Warcraft for a reason.

[00:26:14] Tony Arsenal: It is super addictive and it's very easy to fall back into it. I'm sure there are people out there who can perfectly just fine, could manage their life of having children and a wife and a job and, you know, service to the church and still play World of Warcraft for a couple hours a week or, or an hour every night and still be just fine.

[00:26:33] Tony Arsenal: I cannot do that. If I subscribe to World of Warcraft, it will imbalance my life such that something that God is calling me to, that I know God is calling me to, is going to be pushed out of the way for that. So for me. I cannot fulfill my obligations and participate in that particular element of pop culture.

[00:26:52] Tony Arsenal: And I think there's probably something like that for most of us. Again, someone else may be able to do that just fine. There are probably many people who can do that just fine. That's a problem in my own heart. And the way I address that is by saying, this is just not healthy for me, so I'm not gonna do it.

[00:27:05] Tony Arsenal: And whether that's a TV show or a a book series. I know people who won't read certain books because they get so immersed in it and it sort of like shapes their worldview in really unhealthy ways. They just won't pick up a particular set of novels or a particular book series. Um, you know, I've told this story that I, I don't remember where I was flying.

[00:27:24] Tony Arsenal: Um, it wasn't. I must have been flying to Minnesota. That's the only place I've traveled by air for quite a long time. Um, I stopped in the, the bookstore, the, you know, the, the souvenir store, whatever. And I forgot a, I forgot a book at home of all the people to forget a book. And I was like, you know, there's this big hub lu about Game of Thrones and you know, maybe the book is better than the show.

[00:27:43] Tony Arsenal: And like, you know, I can control what I'm imagining and it's easier for me to skip over parts and nobody is having to make graphic sex scenes. Even if they're sort of portrayed in the book. I can maybe do this. I got like. A chapter and a half into the book and was like, I can't, this is not healthy for me.

[00:27:57] Tony Arsenal: It's not helpful. It doesn't glorify God. It's not true. It's not noble, it's not honorable, it's not worthy of praise. Right. I'm just gonna, and I just threw the book away. I spent like $15 on a book and then I just threw it in the garbage. Um, and I don't say that to like prop myself up as some bastion of self control.

[00:28:10] Tony Arsenal: That's just in that moment I made the right decision. But there are things like that, that you are gonna have to look at your own self to say, I cannot participate in this, even if someone else might be able to. I personally cannot. And I think that's really the more the question we need to ask then. Are there universal principles that say, I can't do A, B, or C?

[00:28:30] Tony Arsenal: It's really about my heart in the moment and how my heart is affected by a given thing.

[00:28:36] Jesse Schwamb: Much like the 10 Commandments. This whole conversation in the scriptural, I think admonishment here is very much about freeing us up to enjoy freedom, to have joy in these things. It's not about just saying, well, here's a list of things that you can't do.

[00:28:51] Jesse Schwamb: Isn't that unfortunate? Everybody else can do them, but you can't enjoy them. Instead, Scott saying like you're talking about Tony, no put to death all these evil, selfish things that are in your life that actually destruct. And instead, enjoy entertainment and pop culture in such a way that not only glorifies him, but does truly refresh you so that you're not drawn back into patterns of selfish behavior or sinful thinking, or all kinds of, you know, sexual frivolity that's going to lead your mind and your body and your heart astray or into places that you'll end up getting hurt.

[00:29:25] Jesse Schwamb: I think. The beauty of this is it just provides us with a way to think and discern about the stuff that we're consuming so that we're ensured. Then it's fulfilling the right purpose that God has for in our lives, and that's freeing. When you get to a place where the scripture says like, here's the way walking it, then you know that you can walk confidently and you can enjoy that very thing.

[00:29:46] Jesse Schwamb: One great example, I think that sit on both sides, we can talk about in some ways how there's like a, a lack of, or like kinda a, a moral perspective with certain types of medium of expression. One of those I think famously is, is music. Luther famously said, musical performance is principle among the entertainment that God has graciously given us to enjoy in life.

[00:30:06] Jesse Schwamb: And yet who hasn't been part of either music that has been absolutely refreshing, absolutely life-giving, absolutely calming and beautiful in the same way that like David played before King Saul when he was distressed. And maybe you've had this experience where there's some kind of soothing melody that was just a bomb to your soul and your condition in that state.

[00:30:25] Jesse Schwamb: And then also. On the other side, who hasn't listened even to some really catchy music that's been filled with like sexual perversion, misogyny, violence themes that at the end of it, you may have enjoyed the beat, but it's, it's just left you kind of feeling gross. And disgusted. Yeah. Even with yourself for enjoying it.

[00:30:45] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think that's what we're after here is like to be freed up to enjoy this kind of entertainment in a way that it is truly the gift that God has given rather than something that enslaves us. And I'm gonna argue that it often does. Not because it's just addictive, though.

[00:30:59] The Influence of Entertainment on Our Lives

[00:30:59] Jesse Schwamb: It can be, but because it does actually influence us deeply and, and I think one thing is clear is that all the things we're talking about here that's present in entertainment, and I'm talking all the way back to things like athletic performance, all of this beauty and creativity, art expressed both in film literature and in music, that all of those things God has given us for our good and for his glory.

[00:31:22] Jesse Schwamb: So he wants us to enjoy them. But sin is of course gonna take all those things and pervert them and twist them in such a way that they no longer become life-giving or become life taking. The problem is they take life incrementally and on the margin. Yeah. And so that you rarely feel that that's going on.

[00:31:37] Jesse Schwamb: You rarely sense the divide of the chasm that's creating in your thought patterns, in the way that you interact with people, even the way that you interact with God until, not that it's too late, but that's, you wake up and you think, my goodness, how far have I gone from what I think this is really intended to be in my life?

[00:31:52] Jesse Schwamb: Then maybe addiction does crop up in such a place that you're like this. This has gone too far. But I think, again, like many things in life, when God says no, what he's saying is, do not hurt yourself. I know better. I want you to enjoy these things. So I see this as like our opportunity to like empower to come with the scriptures, bearing full weights on what we consume, not because we need more laundry lists of things to avoid, but because we need direction on what is best to sink our entertainment time and resources into.

[00:32:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I, I think that's a good, um, that's a good, maybe a next test right?

[00:32:25] Balancing Time and Entertainment Choices

[00:32:25] Tony Arsenal: Is we only have a finite amount of time. We, we, and, and I'm not even just talking about like in general, we have a, I'm, I'm talking about like we have a finite amount of discretionary time. We all have commitments, we have jobs, we have families, we have church commitments, we have friends that we wanna maintain relationships with.

[00:32:43] Tony Arsenal: The amount of time we have to just like sit down and consume pop culture is limited no matter, no matter who you are. Some people have more, some people have less. Um, we can consume. Ev, every time we say yes to one thing, we're saying no to another thing, right? There is, um, there is popular culture or content out there that absolutely is encouraging, right?

[00:33:05] Tony Arsenal: And absolutely is going to enhance your life, and it's going to enhance your piety and your devotion to God, right? And I'm not just talking about like Christian content. There's decent Christian content out there. There's decent Christian films, there's decent Christian music, there's decent Christian fiction writing.

[00:33:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there's probably even decent Christian video games, although I haven't run into them, I'm sure they're out there. Um. But that's not even what I'm talking about.

[00:33:30] Finding Value in Non-Christian Content

[00:33:30] Tony Arsenal: There there are, there are non quote, non-Christian, um, right there. There's General grace. Common grace works out there that will, they'll, they'll make you smarter.

[00:33:41] Tony Arsenal: It will make you healthier. It'll help you enhance your life. It'll help you enjoy your world more. It'll help you enjoy and see the beauty in God's creation. More I've, I've commented, um. At length, and this isn't necessarily pop culture, although it kind of bridges the gap a little bit. I've commented at length on how beneficial in my life, Ryan holiday's, writings have been.

[00:33:58] Tony Arsenal: Right? Right. That's what he doesn't get everything right. There are some things he gets very wrong, um, but. I, I read, um, Ryan Holiday's, stoic. Stoic Works, and I wouldn't say he's a scholar of stoicism. He's more like a modern day stoic philosopher. I read his works and I benefit from him. It makes my life better.

[00:34:17] Tony Arsenal: It makes my devotion to God better. It makes my piety better. It makes me a better husband and a better father, and a better employee just in general. It makes me a better person. Not because Ryan Holiday is some special thing, but because he seems to have tapped into common grace principles that other writers haven't, I have a choice.

[00:34:33] Tony Arsenal: You know? Do I wanna read that or do I wanna read some? Um, and don't get me wrong, I enjoy manga, but like, do I wanna read some. Meaningless, pointless manga that is just the same story over and over again with different animation. You know, some people might find that the reading the manga is the right thing for them and that enhances their life.

[00:34:51] Tony Arsenal: Right? But for me, I've had to make that calculation. I only have so much time. I only have so much time to read. Um, and, and this is might be a shock to people. There are times where I'll have the decision between reading a theology book and. Being caught up on my reading in Daily Stoic, I most often will take time to read the Daily Stoic instead of reading something.

[00:35:10] Tony Arsenal: For example, I'm way behind on Daily Devotion or Daily Doctrine by Kevin De Young Way Behind, but I'm not behind on, on Daily Dad or daily Stoic from Ryan Holiday. That's not because one, one thing is better than the other necessarily, but what I need in my life and what God is calling me to. The writings by di by Ryan Holiday right now are more effective in a, in accomplishing those tasks and into shaping me into who I believe God wants me to be.

[00:35:37] Tony Arsenal: So that's the other question we have to ask is what?

[00:35:40] The Importance of Rest and Leisure

[00:35:40] Tony Arsenal: What is the most beneficial thing for us at the moment? It could be some sort of mindless cotton, candy entertainment. There's nothing wrong with that. This isn't, this isn't me saying like find, this isn't like hustle culture for pop culture. Like sometimes you just need to veg out and do something that doesn't require any brain power, and that's what God is, is giving you as a gift for your rest and your re recuperation.

[00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes it's a hard hitting. Heavy theology. Sometimes you need to sit down and read some Bob Ink again, not that that's pop culture, but I think the broader principle applies. Maybe you need to sit down and read some Turin, or maybe you need to like scroll Instagram for a little while and watch funny cat videos, right?

[00:36:19] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are good things. They're all gifts from God in the proper proportions and at the proper time, and that's why this can be such a complicated question is because we have to have a good, robust. Honest reflection of who we are and what we need in order to make these, these decisions. Um, and it really is about what do we need in the moment?

[00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: What is God calling us to? What is the wise thing to do right now, the wise thing to consume right now? Um, and, and I think that's a good test. Is this the most effective thing and accomplishing in my life what needs to be accomplished, right? That could be all sorts of goals, but is this the most effective thing to accomplish that at my life right now?

[00:36:57] Tony Arsenal: If so, and it's not sinful, and then have at it enjoy. You know, I think those are the kinds of questions we need to ask, and I don't think we often ask that. I think we are often passive. And neutral in decisions about what we're gonna watch for pop culture. We're driven by what is the most popular thing on Netflix?

[00:37:15] Tony Arsenal: What does the algorithm recommend for us? Or what is being talked about at work? Or what do I have on hand? What do I have easy access to? Um, I think we need to be more active and intentional in our decisions on this towards those ends.

[00:37:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. And there's no accounting for taste, right? I mean, part, part of time we get caught up in that, so we'll just say, well, maybe what I'm experiencing, because I'm a Christian, I'm trying to process this, has to do more about like particular medium or the taste or the type of genre or something.

[00:37:44] Jesse Schwamb: I'd encourage us to not get too caught up in that. I think what you're saying is really, really helpful. The idea here I think is more about embracing the fact that we don't have to be productive all the time. And that we don't have to be, and I use this with great love like puritanical in the sense that, you know, well, if Jonathan Edwards didn't laugh and the Lord sakes that was inappropriate, then I shouldn't either.

[00:38:05] Jesse Schwamb: And by virtue of that fact, then I should really have this incredible puritanical work ethic where even when I'm at home or every second that I have, I should be reading something. And if I'm gonna read something, it should be productive. Or if I'm watch tv, it should be something kinda documentary. I need to learn and fill my mind and make use and redeem every second of that time.

[00:38:18] Jesse Schwamb: What if part of that redemption. Is enjoying entertainment for the way that God intended it to be, and that when he makes beauty and creativity and artistic expression, and again, we're presuming that this is the right amount of a lawful entertainment, that all of those things are for their own enjoyment because they point back to the creator.

[00:38:40] Jesse Schwamb: Just by themselves. Like there doesn't have to be an ulterior motive. You don't have to justify it. You don't even have to feel guilty about it. That in fact, because we're contingent beings and therefore we have limited energy supply and unlimited amount of time and space, that all those things com continue to propel us towards some kind of desire for a lawful entertainment that leads us into rest.

[00:39:02] Jesse Schwamb: Even as you're saying Tony, if that's rest for 10 or 15 minutes before, it's the next thing to feel this compulsion instead. To have to again quote unquote redeem. That time by being super productive is I think a fool's errand because we are as much made to work as we are made to rest. And in that rest, I think sometimes we actually find for some of us an easier time identifying and worshiping God in that risk.

[00:39:26] Jesse Schwamb: Because in our work, we are busy in our work and we often get caught up in our work thinking all of our work is all of us. And so we rest and we find enjoyment in something. We take a walk, we listen to a beautiful piece of music. We spend some times just conversing about nothing with friends. We sit outside and enjoy beverages together that something happens sometimes in that space.

[00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: We're in the pause of that in the fact that there is beauty that seemingly is without productive purpose, even though I'd argue there is one. It's just hidden behind it and we fail to see it. We are drawn to the fact drawn to say, God, are you not good? For all of your gifts. And of course he's good in our gifts of work.

[00:40:02] Jesse Schwamb: He's also good in our, our gifts of rest. But he's given us this gift as a form of entertainment in our own pop culture for us really to enjoy. But you're right, if we get it twisted such that we consume too much of it, or if we misapply that, I think we're just gonna live a less abundant life. So again, like the task here is not, don't do any entertainment.

[00:40:23] Jesse Schwamb: Get all, get away from all the entertainments. Like what? Like your point, Tony, I, and I've heard Christian say this, I think there can be a brow beating here where it's like, well, couldn't you have used that time more productive? Like they had a couple more minutes, like maybe you really should have prayed harder or.

[00:40:38] Jesse Schwamb: Maybe you should have read that other chapter in the Bible. Maybe you should gone back through your genealogies again and read those because you know that you don't read those particularly well. Or maybe you should have studied this thing or that thing. And instead is there a kind of worship that truly gives itself over to resting in God in the form of appreciating entertainment as he's created it for us to give us that kind of rest?

[00:40:59] Jesse Schwamb: I would say yes. It's just that we often don't talk about it and sometimes we do talk about it. It's hard to bring it up 'cause you're gonna. You're gonna feel guilty. Like, can you imagine somebody saying to you, you know what? I'm just finding so much rest these days in this, uh, little game on my phone that I get to play.

[00:41:15] Jesse Schwamb: You would be like, you, you might, if you're, if you're like, you know that person, well, you might be like, that's weird. I guarantee though, if that happened to me, I'd walk away and then when I was with my wife later, I'd be like, let me tell you what this weird thing this person said. You know what I mean?

[00:41:27] Jesse Schwamb: But what, what, yeah. We need to think more like that. Not as a liberty to forsake or abdicate responsibility, but instead to actually be well rested for the responsibility in the task, the good works that God has created for us.

[00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:42] Personal Experiences with Entertainment

[00:41:42] Tony Arsenal: And maybe here's like a concrete example is, um. You know, I, um, I work at a local hospital and my job is relatively intense.

[00:41:53] Tony Arsenal: Um, in terms of emotional investment, I'm a patient relations supervisor, so I, I'm in charge of the department that hears all of the complaints from patients, which means we often hear some really frustrating stories about people's healthcare, and it can be very emotionally draining. And so I also, um, I also ride the bus home now.

[00:42:15] Tony Arsenal: My, my vehicle is broken right now. Hopefully we're gonna get fixed soon, but I ride the bus home and for the first couple, I don't know, for the first week that I was riding the bus, I was like, I gotta use this time. I gotta read something. I gotta make sure I'm doing that right. And what I've learned actually is if I just take the 45 minutes that I'm on the bus and waiting for the bus and I just sort of zone out and play Pokemon Go.

[00:42:39] Tony Arsenal: By the time I get home, I'm ready to engage with my kids better. I'm ready to engage with my wife better. I'm less likely to feel, uh, just drained and tired because I'm actually letting my brain sort of reset and I'm building that buffer. So something as simple as like. Playing a relatively mindless game on my phone for a half hour, 45 minutes while I ride the bus and wait for the bus, um, helps me to fulfill my obligations as a father and a husband in a more present way.

[00:43:09] Tony Arsenal: Again, like if you wanna ride the bus and you wanna read a fiction, or you wanna do theology, like that's on you, that's your decision to make. But. I know people who would say to me, um, you really should be using that time for something more productive than playing Pokemon Go. And, and yeah, maybe like, maybe there are times that I should be more productive and maybe there are times that other people should be less productive.

[00:43:32] Tony Arsenal: Like I think that's kind of what we're getting at here is. Productivity or spiritual growth or pi, like those categories are, each of those are good categories. Like productivity is not a bad thing. Um, personal devotion is certainly not a bad thing.

[00:43:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.

[00:43:47] Tony Arsenal: But it's not the only thing. And we also, I think we act as though our lives can be this sort of like perfect integrated balance when really like we have to be able to sort of recognize that.

[00:44:02] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes doing nothing has its own utility. Like that feels like a weird thing to say, but I I, I'm with you here and, and maybe this is kind of how we bring the episode down to an end is I do think. There is this, obviously the Sabbath principle, the rest principle. Um, but God also gives us rest in these other small ways.

[00:44:25] Tony Arsenal: Sometimes not so small, but small ways in the rest of our life. And I don't think that we should bear any shame or guilt or feel like we're less Christian because we take advantage of or make use of those. Those sort of like smaller opportunities to rest and you know, recreation is recreation. Like that's, that's that etymology is not a false etymology.

[00:44:49] Tony Arsenal: That's where the word comes from. And it's because we often need to do these sort of leisurely things in order to be able to then go back and put forward the effort that we need. And the other thing just, I feel like we're tying. Leisure to the ability to produce in a way that may actually also be unhealthy.

[00:45:09] Tony Arsenal: Leisure is not necessarily the ends, the means to being able to be productive. Right? Leisure serves its own purpose. It has its own use, its own way to glorify God. Yes, it does enable us often to be able to come back and put our nose to the grindstone, but we shouldn't just think about it as like, well, this is just, this is just my recharge period.

[00:45:30] Tony Arsenal: We don't think about sleep that way. I don't think we think about sleep in, in a fashion of saying like, well, I've gotta sleep so that I can just get up and go to work the next day. And productive. I think we recognize that our bodies need to rest and there's a blessing and a joy in being able to close our eyes and sort of drift off and have dreams and rest, and that our body recuperates itself, I think we should think of leisure in a similar sense, and recreation and pop culture all kind of play into that.

[00:45:53] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right on. I mean, it's one of those things where we're certainly not saying that there isn't rest in prayer and in daily worship and consuming and studying the scriptures, there's certainly a rest in all those activities too. In some ways, I think we're presuming that we are trying to incorporate a balance into our lives, and that part of that balance is just rest for its own sake.

[00:46:12] Jesse Schwamb: The enjoyment of that and when you're truly, I think, enjoying that rest, whatever it is, one we do not long feel guilty because we have processed. And pass everything to the sve of the scriptures and say, this is glorifying to God is for my goodness, for his glory. So therefore there's no, as it were like condemnation for me in this because I have a clear conscience about it.

[00:46:31] Jesse Schwamb: And then in addition to that, it does provide us with perhaps, again, that lovely contrast between working hard and then having. Some period of which we are abstaining from that work and from that labor. And in so doing we find different ways to please and to worship God. We find that we see his character reflected in different ways.

[00:46:49] Jesse Schwamb: And so in that way too, it reminds us that we are, like I said before, like completely contingent, we get tired, we get exhausted. Like there's only so much the mind can do and so much it can handle. And so by. Willingly accepting and leaning into that, not again, in a way that takes us away. We use as liberty to say, well, I, you know, I really should spend some time before the Lord in prayer.

[00:47:10] Jesse Schwamb: I really should spend some time in, in daily particular worship, but you know what? I really need to rest instead. Like of, of course, that itself, we should be convicted about, uh, because then we're using entertainment such a way to distract us. Suppose this. Way from God rather than toward him. But the Bible is so clear, like you're saying, Tony, that there's all these seasons in life and the more I think about those seasons, the more I wonder if we tend to treat them too discreetly.

[00:47:34] Jesse Schwamb: And in these two, like, kind of like prolonged periods, what if a season is for an hour? What if a season is for a day? What if a season is for five minutes? So famously, of course, when we have the teacher writing. Ecclesiastes chapter three, some of these famous words, I think we just fail to take them to heart.

[00:47:51] Jesse Schwamb: Listen to this beautiful contrast, and I think it really fits in with what we're saying here about the, the ability to rightly consume entertainment and pop culture in such a way that it is glorifying to God and our understanding of it in our application of how it gives us true rest. So it writes things like this.

[00:48:09] Jesse Schwamb: There's a time to kill and the time to heal. A time to break down, a time to build up, a time to weep, and a time to laugh, A time to mourn and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones and a time to gather stones together. A time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing a time to seek and a time to lose.

[00:48:26] Jesse Schwamb: A time to keep, and a time to cast away. A time to tear. A time to sow, a time to keep silence and a time to speak, a time to love, and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. So it's very clear that God has given us, I think all of these wonderful things to enjoy as part of his character, as demonstrations of the fact that he is a God who is loving and love always leads to giving.

[00:48:51] Jesse Schwamb: And so he gives us beauty in arts. In music, in literature, in screen, and of course then we should recognize because those are things from God and we ought to that. Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Heavenly Father who is above that. It is the prerogative of the devil to twist and bend those things in such a way that we feel to see them as God's gifts and said, see them as our rightful consumption.

[00:49:12] Jesse Schwamb: Such a way that enslaves. Changes our mindset, pulls us farther away from God. So I think part of it's just going into everything with the pun intended, with eyes wide open. So hopefully some of these tests have been helpful. I think people probably have, because like you said, Tony, there's a lot of Christian liberty here and maybe some point.

[00:49:29] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I was gonna ask you like what's I, I'm not gonna ask you this because I know you're gonna ask it back to me, but like what would be maybe something you consume that others might be able. Ooh. Um, but I don't want you to ask that back to me. We could do that. We could do that if you want to.

[00:49:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, yeah, let's, let's do that in a future episode.

[00:49:43] Tony Arsenal: I think that'd be fun. Well, we'll

[00:49:44] Jesse Schwamb: save that for another time. So everybody keeps listening.

[00:49:46] Encouraging Community Engagement

[00:49:46] Jesse Schwamb: But I think one of the things that we should be encouraging our listeners to do, the people who are part of the reform brotherhoodhood, is come hang out online. In this place called Telegram, which is just a chat messaging app and we have a little corner, a protected corner of the world.

[00:50:00] Jesse Schwamb: There is a group of people who are like-minded listening to our conversations and participating in their own. And the way they participate with us is you can message in the app, they've got a bunch of channels of different topics, so you can get there by going to t.me/reform brotherhood. I bring this up now, not just to advertise as usual.

[00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Because we want you to come be a part of this, but I would love to hear from others because we have a channel in there that's just about the conversations we're having on the podcast. Come share some of the practical things that you use, the tests that you have, the conversations that you bring forward to help you discern what kind of pop culture you're consuming.

[00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Don't just take our word for it. Let's hear what the Holy Spirit. How he is leading you in this process that every Christian really must engage in. So coming out, that's t me Reformed Brotherhood.

[00:50:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and I'll, I'll throw my 2 cents on there too. Is this, this really is the most friendly corner of the Christian internet.

[00:50:58] Tony Arsenal: Um. That's not to cascade on other, other venues and other things, but my experience with this group of people is that it's the most low key, chill and genuine group of Christians online that I've ever encountered. And so I, I think like in some places you couldn't have that conversation honestly, because the second you say, I watched this show, or I've read this book and I enjoy it, somebody is jumping down your throat to tell you that you're terrible and awful and, and.

[00:51:25] Tony Arsenal: I've been that person. Like, don't, don't get me wrong, like I've been that guy online. Who tells you that you're the worst person in the world because you, I don't know. Because you watch the office. I wouldn't say the office 'cause I love the office, but like, I've been that guy, that guy doesn't exist in our, our telegram chat.

[00:51:41] Tony Arsenal: Right? Like you, you are not gonna have people who are gonna be jumping on your throat, but also. People there are, are honest and they're straightforward and they're gonna back up what they say with biblical reasoning. If they think that the thing you're watching is not a healthy thing, then they're gonna tell you and they're gonna share with you why they think it is.

[00:51:55] Tony Arsenal: But they're gonna do it in a way that is charitable and honest and respectful. And at the end of the day, a lot of times there's disagreements and we just say, you know what? It's not worth it to have. Strife among the brethren here. So we're just gonna let this conversation fade away until another day, right?

[00:52:10] Tony Arsenal: So do check it out. T me slash Reform Brotherhood. Um, I really think it's great. It's encouraging the, I, I, I say it every single time we bring this up. There is an active prayer channel where you can share your prayer requests, and not only will people pray for you, but it is not uncommon for people to type out the prayer that they're praying for you in that chat, so you know what they're praying, which is something I've never experienced online.

[00:52:34] Tony Arsenal: So I think it's a great place to be. I think it's a really, really fun. Group to be a part of. And it's encouraging, it's edifying. Um, and again, it's a great place to have some, just some fun conversations. There's a meme group, there's topic discussions. We are gonna be coming up on a new series in September here.

[00:52:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, I don't think we're quite ready to say what it is. You have to keep you coming back for something, but we're gonna be coming up on a new series in September, but we have a couple more episodes that are sort of grab bag episodes. So this next series is gonna be a long one, I think. Think, I think we're probably talking about like probably like eight, nine months, if not more.

[00:53:08] Tony Arsenal: It's gonna be a long one. So if you've got a topic that you would like us to talk about on the show, here's your chance, here's your chance. Come into the the Telegram chat, look for the topics, topic suggestions, channel. Make your suggestion. There's a good chance we'll take it because we would rather talk about the things you wanna talk about than whatever random topic we come up with.

[00:53:26] Tony Arsenal: So please do check it out. T me slash for brother. We would love to hear what you're thinking.

[00:53:30] Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans

[00:53:30] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, so let's close it out this way. And you, you already gave us one Tony, so you're under no obligation to give a second, but I would love it if you, if you had one, and I can answer first if you want to. But here's the question I think we should end with is what's one thing, one form of pop culture entertainment that you are lawfully enjoying right now that's bringing you rest?

[00:53:47] Jesse Schwamb: So you talked about Pokemon Go. Do you want a second to think? And I'll give you mine.

[00:53:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, why don't you go first and I'll come up with one.

[00:53:54] Jesse Schwamb: So the thing that I'm enjoying is I really do find that the older I get and let, listen, I was gonna give you a, a big explanation of why I enjoy this. And in the spirit of what we just talked about, I'm not gonna do that because I'm just enjoying this and I believe it's, it's something that God has given me that I'm, I'm really finding Reston.

[00:54:08] Jesse Schwamb: I've just been reading the Brandon, uh, Sanderson Missed Born series. I mean, the second book, the storytelling is awesome. Honestly, I mean, maybe one of the reasons I'm drawn to it is I'm finding, of course, all of these themes in there about redemption and sacrifice. And again, these things lead us, I think back to God the Father, when the Holy Spirit has illuminated us such that we have been regenerated and we see those things most clearly, but it's just incredible.

[00:54:37] Jesse Schwamb: Storytelling and I'm finding that it's one of those books where this is not like affirming width, it's just I'm telling you about my rest. It's one of those books. I think you've probably had this experience, Tony, where like you pick it up and you read, and time just kind of like goes by and then you look up and you're like, oh my goodness, I've been sitting here for an hour and I'm just like.

[00:54:55] Jesse Schwamb: Just two weeks ago, I sat outside reading the part, big part of the first book, actually finished a large section of it that I didn't intend to finish when I sat down and I was just sitting outside and I closed it and the ending was so good. And you ever have like a good fiction book, you close it and you just think, huh.

[00:55:10] Jesse Schwamb: You sit there for a little while and you think, and I found it was one of the most restful hours that I've had, I'll be honest, in a long time. So I'm just enjoying that kind of reading and it's good. I don't, I mean, I have a clean conscience about it. Don't worry about any of any nonsense, any of that story.

[00:55:27] Jesse Schwamb: It just goes storytelling. But somebody could easily, with great legalism come along and be like, how dare you? Yeah. You, you're reading fiction. You're reading fantasy fiction. There's some magic. Yeah, exactly. Magic and

[00:55:38] Tony Arsenal: killing.

[00:55:38] Jesse Schwamb: What is this? Get get this outta here. So I, I say that, uh, unashamedly that I'm really enjoying the Miss Born series.

[00:55:45] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. What about you?

[00:55:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, um, my wife and I just started a new series and I'll, I'll be honest, like looking at some of the trailers, we may get to a point, um, depending on how. Some of the trailers are, or we say we can't continue watching this, but we just started a new series called Chiefs of War. Have you heard about this series, Jason?

[00:56:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. It's Jason Momoa. It's a historical drama of the history of the unification of the Hawaiian Islands. Um, and it is very much rooted in history, but also, um, also legend and, um, it is deeply, deeply. Authentic is the way that I've heard it described. So Jason Momoa is, uh, of Hawaiian descent and, um, he has been sort of working on this project for like a decade.

[00:56:30] Tony Arsenal: Um, so it's, it's, uh. Pretty violent. It's a, it's a historical drama around, um, tribal warfare in a culture that was pretty brutal. Um, but it's, it's very enjoyable. It's very well done. The cinematography is beautiful. The, the camera work is absolutely gorgeous. The soundscape is gorgeous. Um. They're using authentic, uh, and I don't know how you figure this out, I'm not a linguist, but they're using authentic, sort of archaic Hawaiian dialect, which is really, really beautiful to listen to.

[00:57:01] Tony Arsenal: If you really, like, you could just close your eyes and listen to, it's a really beautiful language, so, um, I'm really enjoying it. Again, we've only watched a, a little bit of the, you know, we watched the first episode a little bit of the second. Um, some of the trailers look like there might be some spicy scenes that.

[00:57:14] Tony Arsenal: Aren't so great. Um, and maybe once we get to them we're, we might decide like, we've invested this time, but it's not gonna be something that benefits us. Right. And maybe we'll be able to get past it. Who knows? Maybe, maybe we'll be fine with it. Maybe the, maybe the trailers are all there is. So I've really been enjoying it.

[00:57:30] Tony Arsenal: Um. My wife and I tend to take every Friday evening, um, as our kind of TV date night. Um, because the other nights of the week we're trying to get stuff done and read and, and study and do our thing. Um, but yeah, it's been very good. Um, I'm also watching the Lord of the Rings series or the, the Rings of Power, um, trying to finish season two.

[00:57:50] Tony Arsenal: It's kind of a slow slog. It's not, there's nothing like overtly, I dunno, sultry in it, but it's not super. Compelling. I'm one of those people that, like, once I've started a series, I really need to feel like I, I can finish it. It's hard for me to stop a series. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think those are the two big ones that I'm watching right now that I just kind of like take a little bit of time.

[00:58:10] Tony Arsenal: I watch the Rings of Power Show like 15 to 20 minutes of time on my, during my lunch break. I don't really get a lunch break 'cause I'm a salaried person. But like when I'm eating my lunch at work, I'll. I'll put that on my laptop and watch 15 or 20 minutes at a time and then shut it off. So it'll take me like 150 years to get through the second season, but, but it's enjoyable.

[00:58:29] Tony Arsenal: That's what I've been watching.

[00:58:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There it goes. See, by the way, that brings an interesting point, which we can't even get into right now, but you know what is also underrated? Is the tiny little legitimate breaks at work. Yeah. Where you actually do something completely different. Like you said, like read something that's just for fun, like truly for fun, not that you're trying to bone up on a study on, or it's related or not.

[00:58:49] Jesse Schwamb: Just like catch up your emails or watch a video or go to YouTube and watch something of your, for your favorite again. Yeah. Law subscriptions definitely underrated. You take a little bit of that time. It can be so. Refreshing. And then again, I think that once we, we have that time and we're rejuvenated or we're changed in it to some degree, it does cause us to worship God in a different way.

[00:59:09] Jesse Schwamb: It draws our attention back to him as the one who gives all things as the giver of life, giver of energy, giver of renewed minds, and renewed states. Like all of that happens in the course of rest. So you've heard it from us, loved ones, but we'd love to hear from you again. You gotta come hang out with us.

[00:59:22] Jesse Schwamb: T Me backs us from brotherhood. Jump in the chat. Tell us how you are resting and how you decide to consume all of this lovely entertainment and pop culture that God has given us.

[00:59:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, I think that's as good of a place for us to wrap it up tonight. Uh, I appreciate this conversation. I think it's a, it's a good conversation for us to have.

[00:59:44] Tony Arsenal: We are very excited to get into our next series. But again, there are is a couple weeks here, uh, where we still have some grab egg episodes. So this is your chance and Jesse. Until next time, honor everyone.

[00:59:56] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.