Reformed Brotherhood | Reformed Theology and Brotherly Love
Honor Everyone, Love the Brotherhood Hey brother! When you join the Church, you join a family. The Reformed Brotherhood delivers a definitive episode each week that will have you so excited you’ll feel like running through a wall. Hosted by Jesse and Tony, who have over 400 episodes under their belts, our podcast offers a confessional approach to exploring Reformed doctrines, church history, and practical Christian living, all grounded in the teachings of the Bible. Join us as we dive into rich discussions, featuring insights from our friend Reginald and unique “Fergusonisms,” while tightly coupling these elements for a deep understanding of our faith. Subscribe, become a patron, share the episodes, and connect with our community in the lively Telegram chat!
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The Wicked Tenants: How the Pharisees Condemned Themselves
05/11/2026
The Wicked Tenants: How the Pharisees Condemned Themselves
In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Matthew 21:33-46, examining Jesus's parable of the wicked tenants. The hosts unpack how Christ masterfully draws the Pharisees into pronouncing their own condemnation, revealing not merely theological error but intentional usurpation of God's authority. Through careful exegesis, they explore the shocking setup of the parable—where the landowner does all the work while the tenants contribute nothing—and how this mirrors God's sovereign initiative in salvation. The discussion touches on confession, the value of full-time ministry, and the scandal of rejecting the Messiah despite recognizing His authority. This episode challenges listeners to examine whether they, like the Pharisees, attempt to claim God's work as their own. Key Takeaways God Does All the Verbs: The parable emphasizes that the landowner planted, built, protected, and prepared everything—the tenants contributed nothing yet claimed ownership of the fruit. Self-Pronounced Condemnation: Jesus draws the Pharisees into declaring their own judgment, demonstrating that even the unregenerate conscience bears witness to divine justice (Romans 2). Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error: The Pharisees weren't well-intentioned but misguided; they recognized Christ's authority as the heir and deliberately murdered Him to seize His inheritance. The Scandal of Grace: The parable's shocking element is that the landowner prepared everything before leasing the land—far exceeding normal agricultural arrangements and illustrating God's unmerited favor. Ecclesial Support for Ministry: The OPC presbytery's decision to fund a full-time call demonstrates how church structure can honor the ministry of Word and sacrament by freeing ministers from worldly distractions. Particular Repentance Matters: Westminster Confession 15.5 teaches that believers should not content themselves with general repentance but "endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly." The Stone Rejected Becomes Chief: Christ's citation of Psalm 118 reveals that the very rejection by the builders (religious leaders) was God's plan to establish the cornerstone of salvation. Key Concepts God Does All the Verbs The concentration of action verbs attributed solely to the landowner in Matthew 21:33 is theologically significant. The landowner plants, builds, digs, and rents—creating a fully functional, productive vineyard before the tenants ever arrive. This arrangement differs radically from typical first-century agricultural practices, where tenants would lease raw land and develop it themselves, sharing profits with the landowner. Jesus deliberately presents an extraordinary scenario where the tenants receive everything prepared and ready, requiring only stewardship of what already exists. This parallels God's sovereign initiative in election and salvation: believers contribute nothing to their standing before God, receiving instead a fully accomplished redemption. The Pharisees' rebellion wasn't against burdensome requirements but against simply acknowledging God's rightful ownership of what He alone created. Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error The hosts challenge the common sympathetic reading of the Pharisees as well-intentioned legalists who simply got sidetracked. Instead, verse 38 reveals the tenants explicitly recognize the son as heir and plot to murder him to "seize his inheritance." This isn't accidental rejection but calculated rebellion. The Pharisees weren't confused about Jesus's identity or authority—they understood precisely who He claimed to be and deliberately chose to destroy Him rather than submit. This interpretation carries significant weight for understanding the nature of unbelief: it's not primarily intellectual confusion but volitional rebellion. The religious leaders didn't need more evidence or clearer teaching; they needed transformed hearts. This same dynamic appears whenever humans recognize divine truth yet choose self-sovereignty over submission to God's rightful claim on their lives. The Scandal of Grace The parable begins with a scandalous premise that would have startled Jesus's original audience. Unlike normal tenant farming arrangements where landowners simply provided land in exchange for a share of whatever the tenants produced through their own labor, this landowner invests everything. He doesn't just own the property—he plants the vineyard, constructs the protective wall, digs the wine press for production, and builds the watchtower for defense. The tenants receive a turnkey operation requiring minimal effort. This extravagant preparation mirrors God's unmerited favor toward Israel and, by extension, the church. God didn't merely create humanity and wait to see what we would produce; He established covenants, sent prophets, preserved His Word, and ultimately sent His Son—all before requiring any response. The only "payment" demanded is acknowledging His ownership of what He created. The parable thus exposes the absurdity and ingratitude of claiming God's work as our own achievement. Memorable Quotes God does all the verbs. All of the verbs are done by the landowner. There is nothing expected of these tenants—they really add nothing to the landowner's land. Christ is not painting the Pharisees as well-intentioned but ultimately wrong. He's painting them as usurpers who recognize the proper authority and rather than submitting to it, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly. (Westminster Confession 15.5) Transcript Welcome to episode 491 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:18] Parable of Tenants [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picture this, Tony, your landlord. You've built the perfect vineyard. We're talking wall watchtower, wine, press, the works like what everybody says. Everybody knows you need all those things. You've got it all set up, and then you hand the keys to some tenants. You take a long trip, you go enjoy yourself. And when the harvest rolls around, you send your servants to collect the rent. And shockingly, your tenants, they beat. Stone. Another, the kill a third. So naturally you think, you know what? I'll fix this. Lemme just send more people. That's obviously the problem. There's some kind of just profound misunderstanding about what's going on here and about our relationship in this business. And then when that doesn't work, you send your son now loved ones. If this were a business strategy, we would already be calling hr. But of course it's not a business strategy, it's a parable. And Jesus is telling it to the very people about to prove the parable true. So welcome back to the Reformed Brotherhood because we're in Matthew Chapter 21 and we're gonna be actually getting all the way into the parable of the Vine growers where the patience of God looks, I would say, to almost anybody else, to humanize at least almost reckless until you realize that's exactly the point. So yeah, grab your beverage of choice, grab your Bible, pull the car over, will you? Because this is gonna get real and we're going to reason together. But before we do all of that, let's do a little affirming with or denying against, what do you got? [00:02:41] Inside Baseball Affirmation [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: So this is a sort of inside baseball, uh, affirmation. Um, I'm not sharing anything, although it may feel like I'm sharing something that is private and like, uh, like confidential. It's not No, this is good. Um, so I had the opportunity to visit. Um, my presbytery, um, for those who are listeners of the show or people who like, have been with us a long time, um, I was part of a Baptist church. Uh, I've always kind of been a Presbyterian at heart, but, um, our church closed, uh, a little over a year and a half ago now. And, um, uh, I've joined an OPC congregation in membership now. We've been members there for about a year. And, um, so I've been visiting Presbytery, which is the, the meeting of all of the leadership of all of the churches. So we won't do a polity breakdown here, but basically like, it's, it's the regional meeting. It's the regional business meeting or church meeting for a group of churches in the OPC, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And so a lot of the meetings, you know, have the normal kind of business type stuff. You have reports from different committee committees and stuff. Um. [00:03:48] Presbytery Call Debate [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Where this is affirmation is coming in here is at this most recent presbytery meeting, um, was pretty heavy on, um, licensing or, or, uh, not licensing on approving men who had received a call to formal ministry within the presbytery. And so in the OPC, and I would imagine that other Presbyterian bodies are not like super different, although I'm sure there's some variation in the OPC. Um, when a church intends to extend a call to a pastor, to a teaching elder, um, to a minister, they must have the call, which is. Is both theological but is also eminently practical. Like the call is a physical piece of paper that details, you know, what the pay is, how much vacation time. So it's kind of a combination between like a theological call and also a contract. Um, the presbytery has to approve that call. And so at this most recent one, there was a couple calls that were more or less uncontroversial. There was no question about them, and they were approved pretty quickly. But there was one call, um, one call to ministry that took, I, I, I didn't time it, but it was probably like four or five hours of debate and discussion in various fashion in order to get to a point where the presbytery could approve the call. So this was a call to a minister who is being called part-time, which is unusual in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, the OPC uh, acknowledges the fact that bivocational tent making ministry is sometimes a necessity, but really views the ministry of the word in sacrament as something that should not have. Distractions. And actually our book of church order talks about, doesn't use the word distraction, I think, but it talks about a, a properly ordered call to a full-time minister includes phrasing that the congregation promises to compensate them in a way that allows them to be free of worldly burdens and cares. And I might have not, not have gotten that wording exactly right. But that's the idea. And so this call was. Explicitly, um, not a full-time call it, they actually took the language out of promising to pay him in a way that he's able to ignore or to not be distracted by worldly care. And that was intentional, but there was a lot of question in discussion at presbytery level about the fact that the call did not include the phrase or the wording of part-time or bivocational. So the conversation started out of like, can this call be modified to include that? So it's explicitly known in this man's call that his calling is part-time, which is both theological, to make sure that the call is properly formatted, but also like very practical that the congregation should acknowledge explicitly that they recognize that this person is not, not going to be putting, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week towards this position. [00:06:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:06:34] Tony Arsenal: Um. What I'm affirming is where it got to, right? So there was lots of discussion about that. There was some finagling about the retirement package. The OPC recommends that a, a minister be given a retirement contribution of no less than 5% a year of his salaried package. Um, which there's a couple line items that go into that, but 5%, and this was a little bit less than that. And this is what I'm affirming and this, I, I don't know that this is a super widespread thing that would happen all across the, um, the OPC, but it happened in the presbytery of New York and New England this past week, and it's just amazing. And I just, I just want to lay it out there and then I want to hear your reaction. [00:07:13] Funding Full Time Ministry [00:07:13] Tony Arsenal: And I, I wanna hear your reaction as the son of a minister who labored his entire adult, more or less, his entire adult career in ministry, working two or three additional jobs on top of his ministry, the presbytery decided. That because it did not like the idea of a part-time minister. They didn't think that was appropriate. They didn't think that that was good or that that was really the right goal. The presbytery allocated, I'm not gonna say the figures 'cause they're not super germane, but allocated a significant amount of money to be dis to be dispersed to the church for the next three years in order to take what was a part-time call and enable it to become a full-time call. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: And so there are a lot of, there are a lot of church bodies that would say, yeah, we don't love the idea of bi-vocational ministry. You know, we really think it's ideal that a minister could be full-time. Um, they may even put some, some theological freight behind that. Um, I have never encountered a body, um. That was willing to put a sizable amount of money towards essentially supplementing a part-time call to make it full-time. Um, this was just amazing to me, and the candidate was there. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, but I would love to talk to him about what he felt. I, I can just imagine the phone call to his wife who was not, not at presbytery, but to his wife, following the outcome of this to be like, you are never gonna believe what just happened. Right? This is a family who was intending to move across country. Right. He's currently a student at Westminster, California in seminary, uh, California, Westminster Seminary in California, finishing his M Div. They're planning a cross country move into a part-time position where she's probably gonna have to find a job, and then also he's gonna have to find a part-time job. He had the ability to call her on the break and be like, you're never gonna guess what just happened? You're never gonna, [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: it's wild. [00:09:09] Tony Arsenal: Uh, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. You're never going to. Believe how faithful God is in this. Right. So I'm interested to hear your reaction to that as the son of a, of a try and quad at times Quad vocational. Yeah, [00:09:23] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. [00:09:23] Tony Arsenal: Minister who labored his entire, more or less, his entire adult career, um, working full-time in a call as a part-time, part-time minister. You know, like that's a, that's a crazy situation. So I'm just affirming that again, I don't know how common that kind of thing is in the OPC. I don't wanna make it seem like that's the norm. Um, I actually get the sense that this is probably not the norm, but it was amazing to see and it made me in intensely like. Proud in the right way of being a part of this broader body that would, would so emphasize and so value the ministry of the word and the sacrament, and the importance of a man being able to dedicate himself to that without distraction. That they would put forward this amount of money and this kind of money. They had no reason to do so. And there's no real direct benefit to the presbytery for doing this. I mean, there's an indirect benefit of like not having a church with a part-time minister, but like there's no direct benefit to this. There's no direct return on investments that's gonna come out of this. Um, it was pretty amazing to see. It was, it was, it was super encouraging. [00:10:28] Jesse Schwamb: That is really encouraging. I, I think it's, there's no doubt that for the called pastor, their heart is in the ministry of the word. That's what they want to be doing. They wanna be doing it all the time and as much time as they possibly can, and they wanna be able to have all of their intentional focus on it. So I. I'm excited for that guy. I mean, that's just an incredible blessing to go in hoping for funding, essentially for a part-time role and to basically be told, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not enough. We want you to be committed to this fully as we know your heart is committed. As we validated that call. [00:11:00] Why Structure Matters [00:11:00] Jesse Schwamb: I do love being a part of churches, well, lemme say it this way. There is, I think, a benefit of being part of congregations that have like a wide resource network that has like appropriate hierarchy and structure and that can be one of them. I've seen something similar in the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is the church that I'm in, not exactly the same, but I've seen some surprising allocations of resources where they basically said, you know, this is important. Like, it even trumps we're, we're gonna. Allocate or resource something so that this can move forward because it is important in a way that was like better than the person who was bringing it before them could have hoped for. Yeah. And uh, suddenly it's as if everything aligned. And it was really in part because there was this structure to come alongside, to validate as you're saying, and then to authenticate and then again to resource assets that could be used. There's, there's something to be said for that interdependency where there is kind of this hierarchical structure in which all that's happening at a level where things are codified. And again, like there's a structure and a way in which we move through those decisions to make sure that they suit the objective of the entire movement. So I guess there's nothing I'll say, but that's a beautiful thing, isn't it? [00:12:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:15] Generosity in Action [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: It was, it was, it was cool because it was like this, it was like this real. Actualization of the principle of outdoing one another and showing honor. Yeah, sure. Because you know, like the initial debate was like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure we can approve this call because the, the OPCs guidelines tell us not to approve a call that has less than 5% of the retirement benefit. And there was a lot of discussion of like, well, the presbytery can't modify the call, but we don't wanna delay this guy coming in and like, we don't wanna delay his ordination, his installation. And so the initial proposal was a, a. What feels like a large amount of money to me. But after I understood more about the, the budget of what's going on in, in the presbytery was actually a very small amount of money. Started with a very tiny, very modest proposal of basically like supplementing the retirement fund to make sure that like we could, they, I say we, like, I was part of this, I was just observing, but to supplement the retirement fund in a way that allowed the church to still proceed with the call as written, but still also make sure that this person had the appropriate retirement fund. And then that just basically was like, there would be some instruction given to the church that like, you've gotta bump this up in the next budget cycle. Like you've gotta get to the 5%. That's, that's the expectation. It went from that. And like I said, I won't give you the specific numbers, but one of the presbyters and I, I'm, I, um, I, I've known this presbyter from a distance for quite a long time and, and I have an immense amount of respect for him. He stood...
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The Wicked Tenants: How the Pharisees Condemned Themselves
05/11/2026
The Wicked Tenants: How the Pharisees Condemned Themselves
In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Matthew 21:33-46, examining Jesus's parable of the wicked tenants. The hosts unpack how Christ masterfully draws the Pharisees into pronouncing their own condemnation, revealing not merely theological error but intentional usurpation of God's authority. Through careful exegesis, they explore the shocking setup of the parable—where the landowner does all the work while the tenants contribute nothing—and how this mirrors God's sovereign initiative in salvation. The discussion touches on confession, the value of full-time ministry, and the scandal of rejecting the Messiah despite recognizing His authority. This episode challenges listeners to examine whether they, like the Pharisees, attempt to claim God's work as their own. Key Takeaways God Does All the Verbs: The parable emphasizes that the landowner planted, built, protected, and prepared everything—the tenants contributed nothing yet claimed ownership of the fruit. Self-Pronounced Condemnation: Jesus draws the Pharisees into declaring their own judgment, demonstrating that even the unregenerate conscience bears witness to divine justice (Romans 2). Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error: The Pharisees weren't well-intentioned but misguided; they recognized Christ's authority as the heir and deliberately murdered Him to seize His inheritance. The Scandal of Grace: The parable's shocking element is that the landowner prepared everything before leasing the land—far exceeding normal agricultural arrangements and illustrating God's unmerited favor. Ecclesial Support for Ministry: The OPC presbytery's decision to fund a full-time call demonstrates how church structure can honor the ministry of Word and sacrament by freeing ministers from worldly distractions. Particular Repentance Matters: Westminster Confession 15.5 teaches that believers should not content themselves with general repentance but "endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly." The Stone Rejected Becomes Chief: Christ's citation of Psalm 118 reveals that the very rejection by the builders (religious leaders) was God's plan to establish the cornerstone of salvation. Key Concepts God Does All the Verbs The concentration of action verbs attributed solely to the landowner in Matthew 21:33 is theologically significant. The landowner plants, builds, digs, and rents—creating a fully functional, productive vineyard before the tenants ever arrive. This arrangement differs radically from typical first-century agricultural practices, where tenants would lease raw land and develop it themselves, sharing profits with the landowner. Jesus deliberately presents an extraordinary scenario where the tenants receive everything prepared and ready, requiring only stewardship of what already exists. This parallels God's sovereign initiative in election and salvation: believers contribute nothing to their standing before God, receiving instead a fully accomplished redemption. The Pharisees' rebellion wasn't against burdensome requirements but against simply acknowledging God's rightful ownership of what He alone created. Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error The hosts challenge the common sympathetic reading of the Pharisees as well-intentioned legalists who simply got sidetracked. Instead, verse 38 reveals the tenants explicitly recognize the son as heir and plot to murder him to "seize his inheritance." This isn't accidental rejection but calculated rebellion. The Pharisees weren't confused about Jesus's identity or authority—they understood precisely who He claimed to be and deliberately chose to destroy Him rather than submit. This interpretation carries significant weight for understanding the nature of unbelief: it's not primarily intellectual confusion but volitional rebellion. The religious leaders didn't need more evidence or clearer teaching; they needed transformed hearts. This same dynamic appears whenever humans recognize divine truth yet choose self-sovereignty over submission to God's rightful claim on their lives. The Scandal of Grace The parable begins with a scandalous premise that would have startled Jesus's original audience. Unlike normal tenant farming arrangements where landowners simply provided land in exchange for a share of whatever the tenants produced through their own labor, this landowner invests everything. He doesn't just own the property—he plants the vineyard, constructs the protective wall, digs the wine press for production, and builds the watchtower for defense. The tenants receive a turnkey operation requiring minimal effort. This extravagant preparation mirrors God's unmerited favor toward Israel and, by extension, the church. God didn't merely create humanity and wait to see what we would produce; He established covenants, sent prophets, preserved His Word, and ultimately sent His Son—all before requiring any response. The only "payment" demanded is acknowledging His ownership of what He created. The parable thus exposes the absurdity and ingratitude of claiming God's work as our own achievement. Memorable Quotes God does all the verbs. All of the verbs are done by the landowner. There is nothing expected of these tenants—they really add nothing to the landowner's land. Christ is not painting the Pharisees as well-intentioned but ultimately wrong. He's painting them as usurpers who recognize the proper authority and rather than submitting to it, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly. (Westminster Confession 15.5) Transcript Welcome to episode 491 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:18] Parable of Tenants [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picture this, Tony, your landlord. You've built the perfect vineyard. We're talking wall watchtower, wine, press, the works like what everybody says. Everybody knows you need all those things. You've got it all set up, and then you hand the keys to some tenants. You take a long trip, you go enjoy yourself. And when the harvest rolls around, you send your servants to collect the rent. And shockingly, your tenants, they beat. Stone. Another, the kill a third. So naturally you think, you know what? I'll fix this. Lemme just send more people. That's obviously the problem. There's some kind of just profound misunderstanding about what's going on here and about our relationship in this business. And then when that doesn't work, you send your son now loved ones. If this were a business strategy, we would already be calling hr. But of course it's not a business strategy, it's a parable. And Jesus is telling it to the very people about to prove the parable true. So welcome back to the Reformed Brotherhood because we're in Matthew Chapter 21 and we're gonna be actually getting all the way into the parable of the Vine growers where the patience of God looks, I would say, to almost anybody else, to humanize at least almost reckless until you realize that's exactly the point. So yeah, grab your beverage of choice, grab your Bible, pull the car over, will you? Because this is gonna get real and we're going to reason together. But before we do all of that, let's do a little affirming with or denying against, what do you got? [00:02:41] Inside Baseball Affirmation [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: So this is a sort of inside baseball, uh, affirmation. Um, I'm not sharing anything, although it may feel like I'm sharing something that is private and like, uh, like confidential. It's not No, this is good. Um, so I had the opportunity to visit. Um, my presbytery, um, for those who are listeners of the show or people who like, have been with us a long time, um, I was part of a Baptist church. Uh, I've always kind of been a Presbyterian at heart, but, um, our church closed, uh, a little over a year and a half ago now. And, um, uh, I've joined an OPC congregation in membership now. We've been members there for about a year. And, um, so I've been visiting Presbytery, which is the, the meeting of all of the leadership of all of the churches. So we won't do a polity breakdown here, but basically like, it's, it's the regional meeting. It's the regional business meeting or church meeting for a group of churches in the OPC, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And so a lot of the meetings, you know, have the normal kind of business type stuff. You have reports from different committee committees and stuff. Um. [00:03:48] Presbytery Call Debate [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Where this is affirmation is coming in here is at this most recent presbytery meeting, um, was pretty heavy on, um, licensing or, or, uh, not licensing on approving men who had received a call to formal ministry within the presbytery. And so in the OPC, and I would imagine that other Presbyterian bodies are not like super different, although I'm sure there's some variation in the OPC. Um, when a church intends to extend a call to a pastor, to a teaching elder, um, to a minister, they must have the call, which is. Is both theological but is also eminently practical. Like the call is a physical piece of paper that details, you know, what the pay is, how much vacation time. So it's kind of a combination between like a theological call and also a contract. Um, the presbytery has to approve that call. And so at this most recent one, there was a couple calls that were more or less uncontroversial. There was no question about them, and they were approved pretty quickly. But there was one call, um, one call to ministry that took, I, I, I didn't time it, but it was probably like four or five hours of debate and discussion in various fashion in order to get to a point where the presbytery could approve the call. So this was a call to a minister who is being called part-time, which is unusual in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, the OPC uh, acknowledges the fact that bivocational tent making ministry is sometimes a necessity, but really views the ministry of the word in sacrament as something that should not have. Distractions. And actually our book of church order talks about, doesn't use the word distraction, I think, but it talks about a, a properly ordered call to a full-time minister includes phrasing that the congregation promises to compensate them in a way that allows them to be free of worldly burdens and cares. And I might have not, not have gotten that wording exactly right. But that's the idea. And so this call was. Explicitly, um, not a full-time call it, they actually took the language out of promising to pay him in a way that he's able to ignore or to not be distracted by worldly care. And that was intentional, but there was a lot of question in discussion at presbytery level about the fact that the call did not include the phrase or the wording of part-time or bivocational. So the conversation started out of like, can this call be modified to include that? So it's explicitly known in this man's call that his calling is part-time, which is both theological, to make sure that the call is properly formatted, but also like very practical that the congregation should acknowledge explicitly that they recognize that this person is not, not going to be putting, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week towards this position. [00:06:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:06:34] Tony Arsenal: Um. What I'm affirming is where it got to, right? So there was lots of discussion about that. There was some finagling about the retirement package. The OPC recommends that a, a minister be given a retirement contribution of no less than 5% a year of his salaried package. Um, which there's a couple line items that go into that, but 5%, and this was a little bit less than that. And this is what I'm affirming and this, I, I don't know that this is a super widespread thing that would happen all across the, um, the OPC, but it happened in the presbytery of New York and New England this past week, and it's just amazing. And I just, I just want to lay it out there and then I want to hear your reaction. [00:07:13] Funding Full Time Ministry [00:07:13] Tony Arsenal: And I, I wanna hear your reaction as the son of a minister who labored his entire adult, more or less, his entire adult career in ministry, working two or three additional jobs on top of his ministry, the presbytery decided. That because it did not like the idea of a part-time minister. They didn't think that was appropriate. They didn't think that that was good or that that was really the right goal. The presbytery allocated, I'm not gonna say the figures 'cause they're not super germane, but allocated a significant amount of money to be dis to be dispersed to the church for the next three years in order to take what was a part-time call and enable it to become a full-time call. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: And so there are a lot of, there are a lot of church bodies that would say, yeah, we don't love the idea of bi-vocational ministry. You know, we really think it's ideal that a minister could be full-time. Um, they may even put some, some theological freight behind that. Um, I have never encountered a body, um. That was willing to put a sizable amount of money towards essentially supplementing a part-time call to make it full-time. Um, this was just amazing to me, and the candidate was there. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, but I would love to talk to him about what he felt. I, I can just imagine the phone call to his wife who was not, not at presbytery, but to his wife, following the outcome of this to be like, you are never gonna believe what just happened. Right? This is a family who was intending to move across country. Right. He's currently a student at Westminster, California in seminary, uh, California, Westminster Seminary in California, finishing his M Div. They're planning a cross country move into a part-time position where she's probably gonna have to find a job, and then also he's gonna have to find a part-time job. He had the ability to call her on the break and be like, you're never gonna guess what just happened? You're never gonna, [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: it's wild. [00:09:09] Tony Arsenal: Uh, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. You're never going to. Believe how faithful God is in this. Right. So I'm interested to hear your reaction to that as the son of a, of a try and quad at times Quad vocational. Yeah, [00:09:23] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. [00:09:23] Tony Arsenal: Minister who labored his entire, more or less, his entire adult career, um, working full-time in a call as a part-time, part-time minister. You know, like that's a, that's a crazy situation. So I'm just affirming that again, I don't know how common that kind of thing is in the OPC. I don't wanna make it seem like that's the norm. Um, I actually get the sense that this is probably not the norm, but it was amazing to see and it made me in intensely like. Proud in the right way of being a part of this broader body that would, would so emphasize and so value the ministry of the word and the sacrament, and the importance of a man being able to dedicate himself to that without distraction. That they would put forward this amount of money and this kind of money. They had no reason to do so. And there's no real direct benefit to the presbytery for doing this. I mean, there's an indirect benefit of like not having a church with a part-time minister, but like there's no direct benefit to this. There's no direct return on investments that's gonna come out of this. Um, it was pretty amazing to see. It was, it was, it was super encouraging. [00:10:28] Jesse Schwamb: That is really encouraging. I, I think it's, there's no doubt that for the called pastor, their heart is in the ministry of the word. That's what they want to be doing. They wanna be doing it all the time and as much time as they possibly can, and they wanna be able to have all of their intentional focus on it. So I. I'm excited for that guy. I mean, that's just an incredible blessing to go in hoping for funding, essentially for a part-time role and to basically be told, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not enough. We want you to be committed to this fully as we know your heart is committed. As we validated that call. [00:11:00] Why Structure Matters [00:11:00] Jesse Schwamb: I do love being a part of churches, well, lemme say it this way. There is, I think, a benefit of being part of congregations that have like a wide resource network that has like appropriate hierarchy and structure and that can be one of them. I've seen something similar in the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is the church that I'm in, not exactly the same, but I've seen some surprising allocations of resources where they basically said, you know, this is important. Like, it even trumps we're, we're gonna. Allocate or resource something so that this can move forward because it is important in a way that was like better than the person who was bringing it before them could have hoped for. Yeah. And uh, suddenly it's as if everything aligned. And it was really in part because there was this structure to come alongside, to validate as you're saying, and then to authenticate and then again to resource assets that could be used. There's, there's something to be said for that interdependency where there is kind of this hierarchical structure in which all that's happening at a level where things are codified. And again, like there's a structure and a way in which we move through those decisions to make sure that they suit the objective of the entire movement. So I guess there's nothing I'll say, but that's a beautiful thing, isn't it? [00:12:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:15] Generosity in Action [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: It was, it was, it was cool because it was like this, it was like this real. Actualization of the principle of outdoing one another and showing honor. Yeah, sure. Because you know, like the initial debate was like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure we can approve this call because the, the OPCs guidelines tell us not to approve a call that has less than 5% of the retirement benefit. And there was a lot of discussion of like, well, the presbytery can't modify the call, but we don't wanna delay this guy coming in and like, we don't wanna delay his ordination, his installation. And so the initial proposal was a, a. What feels like a large amount of money to me. But after I understood more about the, the budget of what's going on in, in the presbytery was actually a very small amount of money. Started with a very tiny, very modest proposal of basically like supplementing the retirement fund to make sure that like we could, they, I say we, like, I was part of this, I was just observing, but to supplement the retirement fund in a way that allowed the church to still proceed with the call as written, but still also make sure that this person had the appropriate retirement fund. And then that just basically was like, there would be some instruction given to the church that like, you've gotta bump this up in the next budget cycle. Like you've gotta get to the 5%. That's, that's the expectation. It went from that. And like I said, I won't give you the specific numbers, but one of the presbyters and I, I'm, I, um, I, I've known this presbyter from a distance for quite a long time and, and I have an immense amount of respect for him. He stood...
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The Wicked Tenants: Christ's Indictment of Covenant Unfaithfulness
05/04/2026
The Wicked Tenants: Christ's Indictment of Covenant Unfaithfulness
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Repentance Over Religion: Matthew 21's Parable of Two Sons
04/27/2026
Repentance Over Religion: Matthew 21's Parable of Two Sons
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The Vineyard Workers: A Rebuke to Covenant Entitlement
04/20/2026
The Vineyard Workers: A Rebuke to Covenant Entitlement
In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse return to their parable series with an in-depth examination of the Laborers in the Vineyard from Matthew 20:1-16. This often-misunderstood parable confronts our natural inclination toward merit-based thinking and exposes the scandal of God's grace. The hosts unpack the covenantal language embedded in the text, particularly the workers' "grumbling"—a loaded term echoing Israel's wilderness rebellion. Through careful exegesis and theological reflection, they demonstrate how this parable dismantles religious entitlement while celebrating God's sovereign freedom to bestow mercy according to His purposes, not our calculations. The discussion offers fresh insights into grace, election, and the radical generosity that defines God's kingdom economy. Key Takeaways The parable operates on covenant logic, not economic fairness: The landowner's dealings with his workers reflect covenantal promise-keeping rather than marketplace transactions, establishing that God's relationship with His people is fundamentally gracious. "Grumbling" carries profound theological weight: The Greek word used for the workers' complaint is the same term in the Septuagint for Israel's wilderness rebellion—not mere dissatisfaction, but a covenantal accusation against God's faithfulness. Two types of workers represent two approaches to God: The first-hired workers who contracted for specific wages represent those relating to God through legal obligation and merit, while later workers who trusted the owner's promise represent faith-based relationship. The reversal of payment order is narratively essential: By paying the last workers first, the landowner deliberately exposes the merit-based assumptions of the first workers, forcing them to confront their entitlement. Grace doesn't negate justice—it transcends it: The landowner fulfills every contractual obligation while simultaneously exercising sovereign generosity beyond what is owed, demonstrating that mercy and justice coexist in God's character. The parable addresses the present kingdom, not just heaven: Because it includes grumbling and complaint, this parable describes life in God's kingdom now—the "already but not yet"—rather than the consummated state. Divine sovereignty in salvation is the theological climax: The landowner's declaration "Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?" directly addresses God's freedom in election and the scandal of unmerited grace. Key Ideas The Covenantal Nature of the Landowner's Dealings The parable's opening establishes a formal agreement between the landowner and the first workers: one denarius for a day's labor. This contractual arrangement is crucial for understanding what follows. Unlike marketplace haggling, this represents a covenant—the landowner binds himself to provide what he has promised. Tony emphasizes that even this initial contract is an act of condescension and grace, as the master had no obligation to employ anyone at all. As the day progresses, subsequent workers are hired with increasingly less formal agreements. By the third hour, the landowner promises only "whatever is right," and by the eleventh hour, no wage is even mentioned. These later workers enter the vineyard based entirely on the landowner's character and trustworthiness. This progression mirrors the movement from law to gospel—from contractual obligation to trusting promise. The theological implication is profound: those who relate to God based on His gracious word rather than calculated merit are actually in a more secure position than those who attempt to earn their standing through works. The Wilderness Echo: Grumbling as Covenant Violation The hosts make a critical exegetical observation about the Greek word for "grumbling" (γογγύζω) used in verse 11. This is not casual complaining but the identical term used throughout the Septuagint to describe Israel's covenant rebellion in the wilderness. When the workers grumble "upon receiving" their wages, they're not merely expressing disappointment about pay inequality—they're filing a covenant lawsuit against the master, accusing him of unfaithfulness. This connection to Numbers 16 and Exodus 16-17 is devastating. The Israelites' wilderness grumbling wasn't about logistics or comfort; it was fundamentally about doubting God's covenant fidelity. By employing this loaded terminology, Matthew signals that the first workers' complaint is nothing less than accusing God of covenant violation. The landowner's response ("Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?") is a covenant defense—he has fulfilled his obligations precisely. The workers' real offense is not miscalculation but begrudging God's freedom to show mercy beyond what is contractually required. The "Evil Eye" and Begrudging God's Grace The final rhetorical question—"Or do you begrudge my generosity?"—contains another Jewish idiom often lost in translation. The Greek literally reads, "Is your eye evil because I am good?" This "evil eye" imagery appears throughout Scripture as a metaphor for envy, stinginess, and resentment toward another's blessing. The landowner's question cuts to the heart: are you cursing me for being generous? This directly parallels Jonah's response to Nineveh's salvation. Jonah had just experienced miraculous deliverance through the great fish, yet when God showed identical mercy to the Ninevites, Jonah's response was essentially, "I knew you were gracious—that's why I ran!" The parable exposes the same perverse logic: those who have received covenant mercy begrudging that same mercy extended to others. For the Pharisees listening to Jesus, this was an indictment of their resentment toward tax collectors and sinners receiving the kingdom. For Christians today, it challenges any sense of spiritual superiority based on how long we've been in the kingdom or how much we've sacrificed. Memorable Quotes Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity? That 'or' is a logical connector—either I'm not allowed to do what I want with my belongings, which is ridiculous, or if I am allowed, then you must be mad at me for being generous. Those are the only options. — Tony Arsenal The grumbling in the Old Testament in this context is a covenantal accusation. These workers aren't just complaining about not getting what they thought they would—they're questioning the veracity of the covenant that was made. — Tony Arsenal Most of us are this eleventh-hour call. It's much better to be in the place of that younger brother who comes in and repents than to be the older brother who is stubborn and finds some reason to come before God with self-righteous grievances. — Jesse Schwamb Full Episode Transcript [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 488 of the Reformer Brotherhood. I'm Jesse [00:01:13] Tony Arsenal: and I am still Tony, and this is the podcast where Tony comes back. Hey brother. [00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. The band is back together again, man. It's reunited and boy, do you feel it? It feels good, doesn't [00:01:26] Tony Arsenal: it? I do, I do. I'm excited to come back. It was nice to take a break. [00:01:29] Jesse Schwamb: Good. [00:01:29] Tony Arsenal: I, uh, I've been, you know, texted with you a couple times. Just it was, I did my best to sort of not think about the podcast because that's sort of defeats the purpose of taking a break from something if you spend a lot of time thinking about it. Um, so I'm back. I'm refreshed. I'm ready to go. [00:01:44] Break and Work Chaos [00:01:44] Tony Arsenal: I appreciate the listeners' patience. Uh, it's been sort of a weird, crazy busy time at work. Uh, there's a lot going on. I, I lost like. 60% of my staff in the course of like three weeks. And, um, I'm still kind of in the thick of it, but we're coming out of it. So took a little bit of time to just make sure that I was having a, an appropriate space to de-stress from that and take care of my family and attend to worship. And, um, it was really a, a blessing to have that. Uh, sort of sabbatical. Ironically, the sabbatical wars were going on at the same time on Twitter, and Jesse is blissfully unaware of that 'cause he's not involved in in the Twitter. That's true. Um, but yeah, just took a little break and it's kinda like overblown it, to call it a sabbatical. Like this is a podcast, it's a hobby, but, but it was nice to have, uh, a little bit of extra time, you know, couple hours extra week, uh, uh, each week of extra time to just decompress and, uh, play with the kids and spend time with my wife and clean the house a little bit, which was good. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it is always good to have a clean house. You look great. You seem refreshed. The voice sounds good, and I'm like, I don't know, in year seven or eight of my Twitter sabbatical, it's going great so far. I feel like I haven't missed a whole lot. The world still seems wild and I'm sure, or X, right? We gotta go X on this. It's [00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: always Twitter. It's always gonna be Twitter. I don't care what Elon Musk says. [00:02:56] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I'm listen. I'm totally fine with that. [00:02:58] Back to Parables [00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: And I teased this in the last episode, but we can't be stopped. I mean, people should know this by now, we have an inexorable march through the parables of Jesus's true. That will not be stopped. We're always gonna come back until there are no more. And on this episode, we're gonna be hanging out in Matthew 20, talking about laborers in the Kingdom of Heaven. [00:03:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. I'm, I'm, I'm excited to get back into it. I'm excited to get back into the word together with everybody. I'm excited to clear whatever that was on in my throat out [00:03:27] Jesse Schwamb: emotion, [00:03:27] Tony Arsenal: live on the air. Uh, but yeah, it'll be good. I'm, I'm stoked. I mean, I love this stuff and it's good to be back. [00:03:32] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, you had the rest. Now let's talk about labor. So speaking of labor, it's, it's time for you to work up here, Tony. Are you affirming with or denying against on this episode? [00:03:42] Tony Arsenal: Uh, I'm affirming something and I'm hopeful, uh, that just a little behind the scenes activity here. Jesse recorded episode 487, like an hour and a half ago. I have not yet listened to it, so I don't know if you did an affirmation and I I did. If you did. I hope it's not the same one. [00:03:58] Jesse Schwamb: I did not. You're [00:03:59] Tony Arsenal: safe. Uh, good. So I'm safe. [00:04:01] Artemis II Hype [00:04:01] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I'm affirming the Artemis two mission. Um, oh, nice. Have you been, I mean, I know you're not on Twitter, but I'm sure there's news elsewhere. Uh, this amazing mission around the moon, um, for astronaut, for astronauts, I think, um, the furthest man space travel, um, since the Apollo program. Um. Pretty intense, pretty amazing pictures, right? The camera technologies amazing. Increased exponentially, uh, since we were there last. Um, this is ostensibly in preparation for an actual moon landing, which who knows when that will be? Um, but as far as I've seen, the mission was a resounding success. There was no right. I think they had, they ran into a few little hiccups early on with some technical things, but nothing crazy. I have not heard. Um, I know they did touch down and they did reentry. Um, I've not heard anything one way or another, but I'm assuming since I have not heard terrible, tragic news that they made it through, did they do the reentry? I'm really, apparently I'm not actually paying as much attention to this as I thought I was. I saw a lot of information about reentry, but I guess, I don't know for sure when that happened or is happening. [00:05:05] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, by this point, when people listen to it, it'll be old news anyway, right? So [00:05:09] Tony Arsenal: For sure. Yeah. And either, either it went terribly wrong and I'm gonna feel awful, or it went fine and I'm gonna feel a little silly for. Throwing a caveat that it went terribly wrong out there. But, um, it's cool. It's, it's amazing. I mean, I, I commented to my wife the other day and she's kinda like, yeah, maybe we should like, spend that money on people who are on the planet. I was like, okay, I can, I can buy that wisdom. But, um, there's something very cool and very Genesis, uh, one, ask Genesis one and two, ask about flying out into space and taking dominion over Yeah, for sure. Over a, a little ball of rock, uh, you know, uh, 25,000 miles away or whatever it is. Um. And, you know, I'm like an engineering nerd. I, I don't know anything about engineering, but I love watching YouTube videos that explain stuff like this. And [00:05:52] Jesse Schwamb: me [00:05:52] Tony Arsenal: too, all of the videos that have cropped up now about free return and how, like they're able to basically like do minimal burn on the thrusters to get into the right trajectory and then just like meet the moon in the place it's gonna be. And then the, you know, the moon's gravity captures it and whips it back around and then shoots it back towards Earth. And for the most part, they're able to do all of that with relatively minor, um, relatively minor energy output because they're just utilizing physics and gravity and math, um, to fly to the moon and come back. Yes. It's pretty crazy amazing. So, yeah. Amazing. And the photos of like the, the sort of like new versions of the Earthrise photos are really, really phenomenal. Um, they're crisp, they're clean, they're obviously like the best, the best actual pho photographic images we've had of the lunar surface. Um. And the, the far side of the lunar surface, which we get all sorts of like telescopic photos and things of this side of the lunar surface because it's tightly locked and is facing us at all times. We don't get a ton of really great photography of the far side of the moon, which is a big part of what this mission was, so, [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: right. [00:06:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. If you haven't seen the photos, I mean, they're out there, they're amazing. There will be even more available once we get back. You know, they, they're transmitting only the most stellar, amazing ones. Um, and, but they're taking, I'm sure thousands and thousands of photos and, um, so yeah, it's pretty cool. I'm affirming the Artemis two mission. Um. It's just amazing what, what people can do with common grace, you know? That's right. In insight into nature. Um, I don't know anything about the astronauts. I don't know anything about their religious faith or their spiritual life or anything like that. But, um, the people who design this, the people who fly it, they're just tapping into the truth that's present in God's creation. So good on them. Uh, either I'm glad they got home, wish they have a safe home coming, or something along those lines, I guess. I don't know. [00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, you'll be happy to know that NASA is reporting that the four astronauts are an excellent condition after they landed in the Pacific Ocean. So [00:07:47] Tony Arsenal: good. [00:07:47] Jesse Schwamb: All, all appears to be well. And it says they have a giant SD card of pictures that's they've been taking. Yeah. And saving. I'm sure. They were just, they were just too big to send to over wifi. [00:07:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Like massive wideness. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure they have a ton that they didn't send because you know Right. Data rates to the moon are pretty high. Yeah. [00:08:05] Jesse Schwamb: Ex. Yeah. [00:08:05] Tony Arsenal: This economy is crazy. So [00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. In this economy. Really In this economy. Yeah, exactly. [00:08:11] Cosmic Worship Reflections [00:08:11] Jesse Schwamb: I think you're right. This is good. I haven't talked about this at all. It's hard not to get just stoked, even in the amateur way about the science, the technology, the physics of all this stuff, and then even the astronauts just being overwhelmed by what they're seeing. [00:08:24] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm. [00:08:25] Jesse Schwamb: It's hard not to get pulled into that and think about the universe that God has created and find that there is something transcendent just, uh, by observing all of these things. Yeah. Like even casually, which I think shows, again, this is literally the, the heavens and the earth crying out for God, showing his immeasurable power and, you know, immortal nature. It's incredible that we can even see and be a part of some of these things. Just wild. [00:08:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's crazy that they can get signals to the moon. I mean, I drive home from Dartmouth College and I go through half of the spot there, and I don't have a cell signal, but we can get images from the moon. Um, so yeah, it's great. It's great. Check it out if you haven't seen it. If you haven't heard about it, I don't know what you're doing. Uh, this is probably the largest major scientific advancement in our generation. Um, in terms of like big scale scientific enterprise projects. There's been a lot of really amazing technology that's been developed. But this is like the first big. Almost like risky kind of scientific, [00:09:30] Jesse Schwamb: right? [00:09:30] Tony Arsenal: I dunno. Gambit or I dunno, gamble that we've done in a long time. Big deal. I mean, big a lot. Deal of things. Deal. Nothing went wrong. Nothing ma major went wrong. Praise God that they all got back to the planet safely. Right. But, um, a lot of things could have gone wrong, uh, and they didn't. So check out the photos, check out the scientific data they're gonna get. I mean, I'm sure they've got all sorts of information about the way the, the, the space ship moved, all of that stuff. It's gonna be really interesting to see kind of how this all comes about. [00:09:56] Jesse Schwamb: Get some worship on, right? Yeah. I mean this is what a one, a thing to be reminded about how big and how glorious God is. [00:10:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:10:01] Jesse Schwamb: And, and to realize, like you said, the risks of this exploration. And this is God again, creating all of this outta nothing. Why? Yeah. Just absolutely wild. Incredible. [00:10:12] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, for [00:10:12] Jesse Schwamb: sure. Blown away. [00:10:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. What about you, Jesse? What do you have for us? [00:10:15] Bayes and Predictability [00:10:15] Jesse Schwamb: I got affirmation. It's equally nerdy, and actually this is as is always the case. This is why one of many reasons I miss you is it, it dovetails so nicely, so I'm affirming with a book. It's called Everything Is Predictable, how Esy and Statistics Explains the World. It's by a guy named Tom Chivers. I know this sounds super nerdy, but hear me out on this because Thomas Bayes, if you don't know this guy is first kind of like a wild and interesting guy, but this whole theory he put forward is super interesting. And this book is not like a mathematics book. It's like reads almost like a statistical thriller,...
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Render Unto Caesar: How the Imago Dei Answers Political Traps
04/13/2026
Render Unto Caesar: How the Imago Dei Answers Political Traps
In this compelling solo episode, Jesse Schwamb unpacks one of Scripture's most famous—and misunderstood—passages: Jesus' confrontation with the Pharisees and Herodians over paying taxes to Caesar. Far from being a simple political soundbite, Matthew 22:15-22 reveals Jesus' brilliant wisdom in dismantling false dilemmas and redirecting our focus to identity rather than ideology. Through careful exegesis, Jesse demonstrates how Christ's response cuts through political posturing to address the deeper question: Whose image do we bear? This episode serves as both a masterclass in biblical interpretation and a timely reminder that our ultimate allegiance belongs not to any earthly authority, but to the God whose image we carry. Perfect preparation for the podcast's upcoming journey through the parables of Jesus. Key Takeaways Jesus Cannot Be Cornered: The Pharisees and Herodians crafted what seemed like an inescapable trap, but Jesus transcends false dilemmas by reframing the question entirely, demonstrating His divine wisdom and authority. The Imago Dei Is Central: By asking "Whose image is this?" about the coin, Jesus points to the deeper question: Whose image is on you? We bear God's image, making our primary obligation to Him, not Caesar. Civil Authority Is Real but Bounded: Jesus affirms legitimate temporal authority ("render to Caesar") while establishing that all such authority is derivative and limited by God's ultimate sovereignty. Hypocrisy Is Exposed by Action: The Pharisees' immediate production of a Roman coin revealed they were already participants in the system they questioned, undermining their supposed concern for Jewish law. Amazement ≠ Transformation: The opponents "marveled" and left, demonstrating that intellectual defeat or astonishment at Jesus' teaching is not equivalent to spiritual conversion or surrender. Identity Precedes Politics: Before asking what we owe the government, we must ask what we owe God—the answer being ourselves, as those created in His image. The Breath of Divine Life: Our creation bears special intimacy—God breathed life into humanity, making us doubly unique as both image-bearers and recipients of His divine breath, foreshadowing spiritual regeneration. In-Depth Analysis The Imago Dei Is Central Jesus' response to the tax question brilliantly redirects attention from political obligation to theological identity. When He asks "Whose image is this?" about the denarius, He's employing the Greek word eikon—the same term used in the Septuagint translation of Genesis 1:27 for humanity being made in God's image. This isn't coincidental wordplay; it's deliberate theological teaching. The profound truth here is that while Caesar's image on a coin establishes his claim to that piece of metal, God's image stamped on humanity establishes His total claim on us. We are not our own; we were bought with a price far greater than any taxation. The coin metaphor works because it's a physical representation of ownership and authority—but our bodies and souls are the true "coinage" that belongs to God. This reframes every political question as ultimately subordinate to our identity as image-bearers, reminding us that our primary citizenship, allegiance, and obligation is heavenly, not earthly. Civil Authority Is Real but Bounded Jesus' statement "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" has often been misinterpreted as establishing a complete separation between sacred and secular realms. However, Reformed theology—particularly Calvin's interpretation—understands this passage as establishing legitimate but limited civil authority within God's sovereignty. Caesar's authority is real and should be respected; Christians are called to submit to governing authorities as Paul argues in Romans 13. However, this authority is derivative, not ultimate. Caesar operates within a sphere that God ordains and limits. There is no zone of existence that belongs exclusively to Caesar, outside God's jurisdiction. The state has legitimate claims on our obedience, our taxes, and our civic participation—but never on our worship, our ultimate allegiance, or our conscience when it contradicts God's law. This creates a framework for Christian citizenship that takes earthly government seriously while never granting it the totalizing authority that belongs to God alone. Amazement ≠ Transformation The conclusion of this encounter is sobering: the Pharisees and Herodians were "amazed" but unchanged. They marveled at Jesus' wisdom, were intellectually outmaneuvered, and had nothing more to say—yet they walked away to plot His crucifixion. This demonstrates a crucial truth for evangelism and apologetics: winning an argument is not the same as winning a soul. Intellectual defeat can coexist with spiritual hardness. Someone can acknowledge the brilliance of Jesus' teaching, be unable to counter His logic, and still refuse to surrender their life to Him. This reminds us that conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit, not merely the result of superior argumentation. Our task is faithful witness and clarity in presenting truth, but we must pray for the Spirit to do what only He can do—soften hearts, open eyes, and bring dead souls to life. Astonishment at Jesus must give way to submission to Jesus. Memorable Quotes "You can never corner Jesus. Of course, you can never catch him off guard. And while those seem like very just trite and straightforward explanations of who he is and what his character is like as the son of God, we should not go away from them too quickly because what we find here is the wisdom and the brilliance of God in providing teaching to cut to the hearts of what is actually in the question." "Caesar can have his coin, but he cannot have you. Not in any ultimate sense. You and I, loved ones, we belong to God." "Being out argued is not the same as being transformed. You can leave someone with nothing to say and still not reach the heart." Full Episode Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So here's the trap. If Jesus says yes, pay the tax, he completely alienates the crowd of Jewish pilgrims who are beginning to believe that he might be the Messiah who will liberate Israel from Rome if he says. No, do not pay it. He could obviously be reported to the Roman authorities as a seditious rebel. Either answer loses. There's really no good way out of this. At least on the face. Either answer costs him something, his popularity or his freedom, and this is what we call a false dilemma. The Pharisees think that they've got him cornered. But here's the thing, loved ones they haven't. You can never corner Jesus. Of course, you can never catch him off guard. And while those seem like very just trite and straightforward explanations of who he is and what his character is like as the son of God, we should not. Go away from them too quickly because what we find here is the wisdom and the brilliance of God in providing teaching to cut to the hearts of what is actually in the question. And Jesus doesn't play this game. Welcome to episode 487 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for all those with the Imago Day. Hey, brothers and sisters, so let's talk taxes. Now you should know that the Reform Brotherhood is not that kind of podcast, but I suspect that you had one of two responses when you heard that topic. Either it piqued your interest or you thought, I'm just totally gonna skip this episode, and I get that. That's a polarizing topic. It's in part why I said it at the top, but I want us to chat a little bit today about a passage of the scripture where Jesus himself brings up taxes, but not in that way. In fact, he demonstrates some exceptional teaching, showing the wisdom of God in a very difficult and complex circumstance. And so we're gonna spend just a little bit of time hanging out in Matthew 22. [00:02:17] Why Matthew 22 [00:02:17] Jesse Schwamb: Now, why are we doing this? Why this on this episode? Well, we're about to continue on the podcast, our inexorable march through all of the parables of Jesus as we go into the summer months. It's parable, summer loved ones, which I realize sounds like a horrible name for like a low budget drama. But in this case, Tony and I are about to reem embark or pick up our journey in the parables of Jesus. And what we find in Matthew 22 is this little exchange. It happens. And it actually is in the midst of a bunch of parables that are happening. It's in some ways a response to the parables that Jesus is bringing forward. And also, I just love this passage so much, and since we're doing one more solo episode, before we, we reunite and the band comes back together and we start talking about parables. I thought this is a great way for us to, again, consider the teachings of Jesus. In light of everything that he's saying and teaching in these really lovely stories. And so we find ourselves to think right in Matthew 22, which is a great place to be. So come hang out with me there. Grab a Bible, go stop your car right now and pull up on your phone the Matthew 22 so you can read along with me because this is something fantastic. It's one of the most famous passages actually in the gospels. And also at the same time, it's one of the most misused texts in the history of political theology. Because people on every side of almost every date about this topic, especially taxes since they're mentioned here, have reached for this passage, like it's some kind of Swiss Army knife. So I think the best thing that we can do. Our conversation right now is, let's slow down a little bit. Let's chill out. Let's get easy. Let's read it carefully and figure out what Jesus was actually doing here because it is, I promise you, far more interesting than just like a soundbite about taxes and the way that I beta you. At the top of this episode by saying, let's talk about taxes. [00:04:09] Setting the Scene [00:04:09] Jesse Schwamb: Now, before we get to this particular passage, here's a bit of scene setting, which I think is really important before we get to verse 15, which is where we're gonna pick up. Jesus has entered Jerusalem in the triumphal procession. He's cleansed the temple. He's cursed a fig tree, and he delivered three withering parables aimed directly at the religious establishment. We've got the parable of the two sons. The parable of the Wicked Tenants, the parable of the wedding banquet, which by the way, we're gonna get to all those bad boys. They will all have their own episodes because they're all brilliant and exceptional in each their own way, and they deserve for us to sit in them a little bit. But by the time we reach chapter 22, verse 15, I think at this point the Pharisees have heard enough. They are not stoked about the fact that Jesus is coming after them and coming in hot. And so the response is, let's set a trap. Let's now go back on the offensive. Let's give Jesus a test in front of everybody. So he's gonna be pinned down with something very difficult to explain or to answer. And so that's exactly where we find Matthew writing in 22 verse 15. [00:05:15] Reading the Passage [00:05:15] Jesse Schwamb: Here's where we pick it up. Matthew writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Then the Pharisees went and took counsel together about how they might trap Jesus in what he said, and they sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians saying, teacher, we know that you are truthful and teach the way of God in truth and deferred a no one for you are not partial to any. Therefore, tell us what do you think? Is it lawful to give a tax to Caesar or not? But Jesus knowing their wickedness said, why are you testing me? You hypocrites, show me the coin used for the tax. And they brought him a denarius and he said to them, whose likeness in inscription is this? They said to him, Caesar's. Then he said to them, therefore rendered Caesar, the things that are Caesar's and to God, the things that are god's. And hearing this, they marveled and leaving him, they went away. What an incredible passage. I love this so much in part because we're about to see here this wisdom in the teaching of God through Jesus. It's both spicy. It comes with almost like a clenched fist. It strikes back, but it gets to the root of something that wasn't even part of the original question and unentangle the trap to such a degree that the end result is that. Everybody is left speechless and they just have to walk away. [00:06:41] Enemies Unite [00:06:41] Jesse Schwamb: And it starts with this idea that the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. Matthew actually uses this interesting word here, this idea of they took counsel together. It's a formal deliberate scheme. In other words, they definitely talked about this. It's premeditated, it's not impulsive. It's a confrontation with design. And the Pharisees are doing opposition research. They want to. Trap him, tangle him up. The Greek is to snare or to trap in a net. So they're hunting. They're trying to snipe Jesus, and they're going to send in this least likely combination of collaborators, collaborators, to do this whole thing. It's worth noting here. These groups that we have in the passage, the Pharisees and the Herodians, these guys were natural enemies. The Pharisees were Jewish priests or purists who despised Roman rule, and the Herodians were political pragmatists who basically owed their power to Rome. And so these guys, you can imagine, they agreed on almost nothing except that Jesus needed to be stopped. And when your enemies join forces to come after you. I guess you know, you've been effective. We might think about the own, own, our own times in which we live and the kind of polarized way our societies tend to be bending and tilting right now. And to think what would it take for everybody to come together, unite on common hatred or disagreement about some kind of third element or party? What would it take for that to happen? And so here, there is. The sense in which both the Pharisees and the pros for all of their dislike toward each other, for all their philosophical and religious disagreements, for all of their political conniving against each other, they are completely united in this purpose. And they easily come together to say, Jesus, we must deal with, and it requires all of us, let us come together and reason against him finding a way that we can consolidate our effort and power to such a degree that we leverage one another to entrap him. So there's something here where I think they're demonstrating what the Psalms say that God, when the nation's rage against God, he laughs. He holds 'em in derision. And here's a perfect example of that. In a microcosmic kind of way, we find these two groups who really should never be with one another, finding common ground and unity to try to defeat. Jesus. [00:08:56] Flattery as a Trap [00:08:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this delegation arrives and here is their approach to Jesus. They say, teacher, we know that you are true and you teach the way of God truthfully, and you don't care about anyone's opinion. For you are not swayed by appearances. This is some kind of magnificent flattery, and it actually, it's almost entirely true, which just makes this so ironic. There's a confession among the Herodians and the Pharisees, even as I tried to undermine Jesus, you know, that's what makes this so dangerous. They say you don't care about anyone's opinion. You're not swayed by appearances. They're essentially saying you can't be pressured. You'll answer honestly no matter what. And in saying so, they're trying to pressure Jesus, of course, into answering honestly. But it's like a rhetorical judo move. The compliment is the trap spring mechanism. Calvin, in this passage, likes to know that they address Jesus as teacher to feign respect while concealing this animosity, this ho hostility that they have towards him. They want him to be relaxed. Flattered off guard as if it's possible to take the son of God off guard, but notice what they're actually confessing in that flattery. Jesus is truthful. He teaches God's way accurately. He's not a respecter of persons. Every word they speak in false praise is true testimony about who he is, which makes their hypocrisy all the more damning. And this is the thing, for as much as anybody wants to try to blaspheme Jesus for as much as anybody wants to come at him with one particularly. Facet of his character. For instance, he's a good teacher or he seems to teach peace and love and truth and that, and that's it. They compliment him while at the same time confessing themselves short of the true confession of who he is. And so it's ironic to me that these guys. Who in their hearts are holding all of this malice toward Jesus. Say, well, you're not a respecter of persons because you th see things as they are and not merely as they appear to be, while all the time thinking that they're truthfully concealing the fact that they hate him and yet are flattering them with his, flattering him with their tongues. The absurdity of this is absolutely insane. And so I think if you're in this moment, you have to be appreciating. This sense of what is building here? How is Jesus going to respond? The trap has been set. They've tried to flatter him, and of course he's not buying it. But they start with this question. All of that's a set up to say here is like the real punchline. Tell us then, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not? [00:11:36] The False Dilemma [00:11:36] Jesse Schwamb: Now, if you're like me, quite honestly, you might wish that Jesus answered this question differently. This is the trap, the trap. Snapshots on this single question or so they think, I mean, I, I truly believe they think they're being really smart here, that they've come to terms with maybe lots of ideas. I don't know what they did. Whatever the equivalent of using chat GPT was, they said, how can we entrap Jesus? They all got together. They devised a plan. I'm sure they had. Some kind of whiteboard where they're brainstorming ideas and some came up and said, no, that's not gonna work. And others came. I imagine they settled on this because they thought there was no way outta this. And in some ways it's actually a really brilliantly engineered dilemma. The tax in question here is the kenzos. This was the Roman poll tax. A denarius per head paid directly to Rome, and it was incredibly and deeply controversial. Some Jews viewed paying it as completely an act of collaboration with an occupying pagan power, and the zealots called it outright sin, and the HEROs thought it was perfectly fine. So here's the trap. If Jesus says yes, pay the tax, he completely alienates the crowd of Jewish pilgrims who are beginning to believe that he might be the Messiah who will liberate Israel from Rome if he says. No, do not pay it. He could obviously be reported to the Roman authorities as a seditious rebel. Either answer loses. There's really no good way out of this. At least on the face. Either answer costs him something, his popularity or his freedom, and this is what we call a false dilemma. The Pharisees think that they've got him cornered. But here's the thing, loved ones they haven't. You can never corner Jesus. Of course, you can never catch him off guard. And while those seem like very just trite and straightforward explanations of who he is and what his character is like as the son of God, we should not. Go away from them too quickly because what we find here is the wisdom and the brilliance of God in providing teaching to cut to the hearts of what is actually in the question. And Jesus doesn't play this game. [00:13:40] Coin and Hypocrisy [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: Jesus aware of the malice says, why? Put me to the...
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The State of Preaching: A 40-Year Pastor's Diagnosis
04/06/2026
The State of Preaching: A 40-Year Pastor's Diagnosis
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Divine Discipline: Why God's Chastisement Proves His Love for Christians
03/30/2026
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Suffering and Sovereignty: How God Uses Pain to Sanctify Believers
03/23/2026
Suffering and Sovereignty: How God Uses Pain to Sanctify Believers
In this deeply personal and theologically rich episode, Jesse welcomes his wife Jenn to discuss suffering, steadfastness, and God's sovereign purposes in pain. Jenn shares her ongoing journey with endometriosis—a chronic illness that has led to multiple surgeries, emergency procedures, and ongoing medical challenges. Through candid conversation, they explore how suffering is never condemnation for believers but rather a refining tool in God's hands. This episode moves beyond abstract theological discussion to demonstrate how Reformed doctrine meets real life, offering profound encouragement for anyone walking through prolonged trials. Jenn's testimony reveals how moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset transforms suffering into an opportunity to comfort others and glorify God, even when answers remain unclear. Key Takeaways Suffering is governed by God's sovereign providence, not random chance - While endometriosis and its complications might appear as medical "bad luck," believers understand that God ordains our circumstances for our sanctification and His glory. God uses suffering to move us from victims to stewards - The transformation from asking "why me?" to "how can I serve others through this?" represents spiritual maturity and reflects God's comfort given to us so we might comfort others (2 Corinthians 1:3-4). Theology must work in ordinary life or it doesn't work at all - Abstract doctrinal knowledge means nothing if it cannot sustain us through hospital stays, chronic pain, and medical setbacks. God never promised to remove suffering, but to be present in it - The Christian life is not characterized by the absence of hardship but by God's sustaining presence through trials, enabling endurance we cannot manufacture ourselves. Honest lament is biblical and appropriate - Following David's example in the Psalms, believers can cry out to God with raw questions about suffering without fear of condemnation. Suffering creates unique opportunities for gospel witness - Non-believing friends and coworkers notice supernatural peace in the midst of trials, opening doors for conversations about the hope we have in Christ. Accepting our circumstances from God enables us to ask Him to use them - Surrender precedes service; once we accept our suffering as from God's hand, we can pray for Him to redeem it for His purposes and others' good. Key Takeaways Moving From Victim to Steward One of the most transformative insights Jenn shares is the concept of moving from a victim mindset to a steward mindset in suffering. This shift doesn't minimize the reality or severity of pain—Jenn's experience with emergency surgeries, a temporary colostomy, and now a nephrostomy tube is genuinely difficult. Rather, this perspective acknowledges that God can be trusted even when circumstances feel overwhelming. The concept of stewardship typically applies to blessings—time, talents, resources—but Jenn extends it to suffering itself. If we truly believe Romans 8:28, that all things work together for good for those who love God, then even our most painful experiences become something to steward faithfully. This means asking God not just "why?" but "how can you use this?" It means looking for opportunities to comfort others with the comfort we've received from God (2 Corinthians 1:4). Jenn's ability to help others facing colostomies or endometriosis demonstrates this stewardship in action—her suffering became preparation for ministry to others facing similar trials. The Sovereignty of God Anchors Us in Suffering Throughout the conversation, Jenn repeatedly returns to God's character and sovereignty as the foundation for enduring prolonged suffering. When doctors told Jesse that only two resections out of thousands had failed—and his wife's was one of them—the natural response would be to feel victimized by terrible odds. Instead, understanding God's sovereignty reframes even statistical anomalies as part of His purposeful plan. This doesn't mean suffering is easy or that pain doesn't hurt, but it does mean suffering is never meaningless or outside God's control. Jenn's starting point in processing each new medical challenge is not her emotions or even her physical pain, but God's trustworthy character. This theological foundation—that God is good, sovereign, and has purposes we cannot always see—functions as a filter through which every diagnosis, setback, and difficult day must pass. Without this anchor, suffering becomes unbearable randomness. With it, suffering becomes a crucible for sanctification, an opportunity to experience God's sustaining grace, and a platform for displaying His glory to a watching world. Suffering Creates Gospel Opportunities One of the unexpected fruits of Jenn's journey with chronic illness has been the opening of conversations about faith with non-believing friends and coworkers. When people observe someone handling devastating diagnoses and repeated medical setbacks with genuine (though not perfect) peace, they notice. Jenn recounts multiple instances of people saying, "I don't know how you're handling this so well," which creates natural opportunities to point to the source of that peace—not personal strength, but God's sustaining presence. This aligns with 1 Peter 3:15's instruction to always be prepared to give a reason for the hope we have. For believers, suffering is never wasted because it demonstrates to a skeptical world that Christian faith is not merely theoretical or confined to good times. The gospel proves its power most clearly when it enables believers to endure what should be unbearable. Jenn's testimony shows that effective evangelism often flows not from having all the answers but from displaying authentic dependence on God through difficulty, which prompts questions from those who lack that anchor in their own suffering. Memorable Quotes "I don't always have to do the fighting. I don't have to fight this stuff. The Lord will do it for me. He'll fight for me. I just have to trust him and be still and he's got it." — Jenn Schwamb "God never said that this was gonna be easy... I often think, well, why wouldn't it happen to me? Like, why wouldn't it happen to any of us?" — Jenn Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 484 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:52] Jenn Schwamb: I'm Jen. [00:00:53] Jesse Schwamb: And this is the podcast where two Become one. Hey sister. [00:00:57] Jenn Schwamb: Hey brother. That's so weird. Did not like that at all. [00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Well, listen, before we get into it, and we're gonna get into a great conversation on this episode about suffering and steadfastness and encouragement, and we're gonna talk about it like you have never heard it talked about on the Reform Brotherhood podcast before. And that's in part or in whole because we got a special guest, the most specialist guest in my view, that we have ever had on this podcast. Why don't you tell us who you are? [00:01:28] Jenn Schwamb: Um, I'm Jen, your wife. [00:01:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, you are. And we figured it was about time after 10 long years, and it took 484 episodes to get Jen to come onto the podcast. Listen, this is one of the great marriages of all time. That's what people are saying, not me. Other people are saying that about us. [00:01:51] Jenn Schwamb: I don't think so. [00:01:51] Jesse Schwamb: And they're absolutely saying it. And it's finally time that we had you on the podcast, and I am super excited. On a scale of like nine to 10, how excited are you to finally do this? [00:02:01] Jenn Schwamb: I'm terrified. I'm so uncomfortable already. This is so weird. This [00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: is fantastic. Everybody we're sitting in now, our makeshift Kitchen studio, two microphones at the kitchen table across from each other, just doing what the Reform Brotherhood Podcast does, talking about God. And that's what we intend to do today. But of course, before we get to the topic at hand, you know. Or actually maybe you don't know. You know a little bit about affirmations and denials, but even, even before we get there, there's an important thing we gotta talk about, and that is how many podcast episodes of the Reformed Brotherhood would you have said you have listened to? [00:02:38] Jenn Schwamb: I am pretty sure zero, maybe half. Maybe half of one. Because I do remember, I remember when you and Tony had the idea for the podcast, and I remember you guys starting to record episodes early on, and I feel like I'm certain, I tried to listen to it, but very quickly. So [00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: kind [00:02:58] Jenn Schwamb: very quickly was like, Nope, not for me. [00:03:00] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we understand we are not everybody else's jammed, so this is why it makes good sense then to start this episode with a quiz about their reformed brotherhood. Oh no. Wow. For you to answer. So I have five questions here for you. And these are all questions about the Reformed Brotherhood, which I think many of these you'll be able to answer just by way of, I don't think [00:03:19] Jenn Schwamb: so. [00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: Osmosis all. Are you ready? It's gonna be great. Get excited. Question one. How did the Reform Brotherhood podcast officially begin? Was it a, [00:03:30] Jenn Schwamb: oh, that's multiple choice. Okay. [00:03:31] Jesse Schwamb: Tony accidentally purchased two microphones instead of one and wanted somebody to talk to. [00:03:36] Jenn Schwamb: Nope. [00:03:36] Jesse Schwamb: Was it B? I didn't think there were enough Reform Theological podcasts in the world. [00:03:42] Jenn Schwamb: No. [00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: Was it C You and my sister went shopping and left Tony and I at a brewery, or was it Dee Tony found someone who was wrong on the internet? [00:03:52] Jenn Schwamb: Well, I mean, it could be Dee as well, but it was C because we were at Trobe's Brewery when Ashley and Tony were visiting us here, and I don't know how it came up, but you and Tony, well, maybe it came up while Ashley and I were shopping. [00:04:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:04:06] Jenn Schwamb: I couldn't remember if you guys talked about it and then we were like, we're outta here. Or if we had already left and then you, when we came back, you guys were like, guess what? We're gonna start a podcast. [00:04:15] Jesse Schwamb: We need a sound effect. You absolutely got that correct. Okay. And. I think it officially began once you left us. This is what happens, I'm sure. Okay. When you leave us alone, [00:04:23] Jenn Schwamb: we all noted, [00:04:24] Jesse Schwamb: we started a podcast and then at a [00:04:25] Jenn Schwamb: brewery, [00:04:26] Jesse Schwamb: 10 years later, here we are sitting across the table from each other recording an episode. Alright, question two. Okay. It's a little bit more difficult. [00:04:33] Jenn Schwamb: Oh no, [00:04:34] Jesse Schwamb: but I'm confident in you. Which of the following is not a catchphrase of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast? Is it A, that makes me want to run through a wall. B, Calvinism has the Riz C God does all the verbs. Or, D, salvation is like a cake. Now remember, you're looking for the one that is not, [00:04:57] Jenn Schwamb: first of all, the fact that you're telling me that. You guys say multiples, like there's more than one of, there's the one that you don't say don't. That's concerning to me. I'm hoping. I'm hoping it's the one where you said Riz. 'cause you and Tony shouldn't be saying Riz. [00:05:12] Jesse Schwamb: It is not your final answer. [00:05:13] Jenn Schwamb: Yes. [00:05:13] Jesse Schwamb: B Calvinism has, you are correct. [00:05:15] Jenn Schwamb: Okay. Yeah. Good. You guys [00:05:16] Jesse Schwamb: can't be saying that. Said that in my life. [00:05:17] Jenn Schwamb: You can't be saying that. [00:05:18] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that you're absolutely right. Thanks. Phew. Thanks for calling us out in this hypothetical world that I've created. Alright, question three. This is more difficult still. R Scott Clark is a reformed theologian, theologian pastor, professor and writer who is often mentioned on the podcast. What does the R in his name stand for? Is it a Randy b Rufuss? C Reginald D. Nobody knows. What does the R in R Scar Clark stand for? [00:05:51] Jenn Schwamb: I've never heard of that person. [00:05:54] Jesse Schwamb: If you had to guess Randy Rufuss, Regina Reginald, or nobody know [00:05:57] Jenn Schwamb: I Reginald, but I'm gonna go with nobody knows. 'cause I don't know. [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: You are right on both accounts. Okay. I would've taken both. So the great joke we have is we call him Reginald, but nobody actually knows. So [00:06:06] Jenn Schwamb: like, actually nobody knows. Like the internet doesn't know. [00:06:08] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. I don't think so. [00:06:10] Jenn Schwamb: Chachi? Bt doesn't know. [00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: I don't think [00:06:11] Jenn Schwamb: so. Oh, impressive Art. Scott something. [00:06:14] Jesse Schwamb: Clark. [00:06:15] Jenn Schwamb: Clark, [00:06:15] Jesse Schwamb: yeah. So really you just cleaned up on that question by getting both. Is he [00:06:18] Jenn Schwamb: alive [00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: of the potential? Yes, very much so. [00:06:20] Jenn Schwamb: Oh, I feel like somebody could find out what the art stands for. [00:06:24] Jesse Schwamb: The whole fun now is the secretive nature of this whole thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's a, it's a lovely mystery like the Trinity, but certainly not as profound. Alright, question four, only two more left. And you are batting a thousand right now. Phew. You're better at this than I think you thought you were gonna be. I had every confidence. Alright, question four. The podcast was once famously nominated for an award. [00:06:45] Jenn Schwamb: No, [00:06:46] Jesse Schwamb: what was that? Thank you for the confidence. What was that award? Was it a top 50? Healthcare Podcasts? B. The top PO 10 podcasts with hosts who look similar. C, top 100 Theo Theology podcasts that won't stop making episodes or D Top 25 podcasts about the weather. Which of these did the Reform Brotherhood actually receive a nomination for? [00:07:14] Jenn Schwamb: Oh my God. [00:07:15] Jesse Schwamb: Was it Healthcare? The one were the [00:07:17] Jenn Schwamb: same one, like they're still making episodes. [00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: Final answer. [00:07:20] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. [00:07:21] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, so close. So the great joke is, at one point in time we were nominated as a top 50 healthcare podcast, like nominated in quotation marks. [00:07:29] Jenn Schwamb: That sounds vaguely familiar. Now that. But I don't remember why. [00:07:32] Jesse Schwamb: Apparently affirmations, denials had put us into a category of healthcare at one point. So, [00:07:37] Jenn Schwamb: oh, it's like therapy or something. [00:07:38] Jesse Schwamb: We'll get there. Yeah, something like that. Alright, final question. And at this point, three for four is a really strong showing. I'm very impressed. Here is the last question. Perhaps the hardest of them all. Question five, who speaks the most on the Reformed Brotherhood podcast? Is it a Tony? [00:07:59] Jenn Schwamb: Yeah. Or just Tony? Based on what I can hear through the floor of our, of our house. I, I am aware of when you're speaking and I'm guessing it's Tony, [00:08:10] Jesse Schwamb: we're gonna go with a Tony. [00:08:11] Jenn Schwamb: Yep. [00:08:12] Jesse Schwamb: Everybody knows. Everybody knows. We love Tony. We miss him on this episode, but not as much as I enjoy having my wife with us. [00:08:19] Affirmations and Denials Comfort Picks [00:08:19] Jesse Schwamb: So let's move in then to affirmations and denials before we get to the topic at hand. You know the drill, and if you're listening for the first time, we do these things called affirmations and denials because we're coming alongside the reformed tradition where it would come and say, I affirm with these principles, or deny against these things. And we've taken that to use in our own conversations as, here's some things we really, really like, or here's some things that are really not that great. So, Jen, I ask you on this episode, are you affirming with or or denying against something? [00:08:49] Jenn Schwamb: Affirming. [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: What are you affirming [00:08:50] Jenn Schwamb: with? Oh, I have to go first. [00:08:52] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, you're the best. [00:08:53] Jenn Schwamb: I don't even know how you guys do them. 'cause I've never listened and I don't think you had affirmations and denials when you first started. [00:08:59] Jesse Schwamb: No. This, that was, who [00:09:00] Jenn Schwamb: knows when that started. There's one episode that I maybe listened [00:09:02] Jesse Schwamb: to. Yeah, that's a great question. [00:09:03] Jenn Schwamb: Um, well welcome. I decided I was gonna affirm because it was the first thing that came to my mind when you told me I was gonna have to do something. Uh, and I don't know, maybe you've affirmed it before, but it is the brand of clothing re, which I am decked out in right now. Specifically their joggers and their hoodie sweatshirt. [00:09:20] Jesse Schwamb: Alright. But you gotta tell the people like why you like this. There's so much you call them, they're, [00:09:24] Jenn Schwamb: oh, well, what I call, and not just me, but my friends and my car. I've never heard [00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: anybody else say this. [00:09:29] Jenn Schwamb: These, these specific sweatpants, which are the VUI performance joggers. Uh, we call them butter pants because they feel like butter. They're really soft, they're really comfortable. I will say the brand is not particularly cheap. They're a little on the pricey side. I do not normally spend this amount of money on clothing. I shop at thrift stores, but when it comes to my athleisure, I like to be comfortable. And so these are my favorite. I'm wearing right now, the performance joggers and a hoodie, and I'm never been more comfortable. [00:10:04] Jesse Schwamb: And we really should be sponsored by Vori at this point. [00:10:06] Jenn Schwamb: That'd be great. [00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: That's a, I mean, that would be great for [00:10:09] Jenn Schwamb: what if you got a sponsorship for Vori after the one episode that I was on. [00:10:14] Jesse Schwamb: This is gonna be the definitive Vori episode. I also do, I have a pair of these? Did you get me a pair of pants? [00:10:20] Jenn Schwamb: Uh, I...
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Gospel Forgiveness: Fruit of Salvation, Not Grounds for Justification
03/16/2026
Gospel Forgiveness: Fruit of Salvation, Not Grounds for Justification
In this powerful solo episode, Jesse Schwamb brings Matthew 18 to a close by unpacking Jesus's parable of the unforgiving servant. As Tony Arsenal begins a well-deserved sabbatical after a decade of faithful podcasting, Jesse explores the radical nature of kingdom forgiveness and its role as evidence—not grounds—of our justification. Drawing on Reformed theology and Puritan wisdom, he demonstrates how the immeasurable debt we owed God should revolutionize how we forgive others. This episode challenges listeners to examine their hearts for harbored bitterness and calls them to embrace forgiveness as the family likeness of those adopted by grace. A must-listen for anyone wrestling with the difficult work of forgiving from the heart. Key Takeaways Forgiveness is evidence of salvation, not its grounds - We do not forgive to become forgiven; we forgive because we have been forgiven. This distinction is essential to Reformed theology and prevents works-righteousness. The parable contrasts debts to highlight gospel logic - The servant owed 10,000 talents (an unpayable sum representing our sin debt to God) versus 100 denarii (representing offenses against us). This jarring contrast is intentional and reveals the absurdity of unforgiveness. Unforgiveness is wickedness, not mere hypocrisy - Jesus calls the unforgiving servant "wicked," not just inconsistent. Refusing to forgive denies the logic of grace and demonstrates an unchanged heart. Sin is never purely private in its effects - Even personal unforgiveness damages the community of faith. The watching servants' grief shows how sin bleeds into fellowship and requires righteous intervention. True forgiveness must come "from the heart" - Jesus elevates the law beyond external compliance. Heart religion, not mere strategy or politeness, is the standard of kingdom forgiveness. Forgiveness as "resisting revenge" - Thomas Watson's definition helps us understand that forgiveness means actively fighting against revenge, seeking the offender's good, and praying for them. Regular self-examination prevents spiritual danger - We should daily audit our hearts, asking "Who am I refusing to forgive?" as part of ordinary Christian piety and confession. Key Concepts Forgiveness as Evidence, Not Grounds The Reformed tradition carefully distinguishes between the grounds of our justification (Christ's righteousness alone) and the evidence of genuine faith (good works, including forgiveness). Jesse emphasizes that Matthew 18 does not teach that we earn God's forgiveness by forgiving others—that would be works-righteousness. Instead, a forgiving spirit is the inevitable fruit of having truly received mercy. As Westminster Larger Catechism 194 teaches, we cannot satisfy our sin debt; forgiveness comes through Christ's satisfaction applied by faith. When the Holy Spirit regenerates a heart and opens our eyes to the magnitude of what we've been forgiven, that heart naturally extends forgiveness to others. The warning at the end of the parable isn't threatening to unjustify the justified, but revealing that persistent, unrepentant unforgiveness indicates a heart that never truly embraced mercy in the first place. The Radical Disproportion Reveals Gospel Logic The numbers in Jesus's parable aren't arbitrary—they're shocking. Ten thousand talents was an astronomical sum, roughly equivalent to 200,000 years of wages for a common laborer. It was literally unpayable. By contrast, 100 denarii was about four months' wages—significant but manageable. This jarring disproportion forces us to see our sin debt to God versus others' debts to us in proper perspective. Jesse notes that this is "the logic of grace"—grace received creates a new "ought." The servant's wickedness isn't just in being ungrateful; it's in fundamentally misunderstanding what happened to him. He treated his forgiveness as a transaction cleared rather than as a display of astonishing, undeserved mercy. When we truly grasp the immeasurable nature of our forgiveness in Christ, human offenses shrink. Nothing softens resentment like fresh astonishment at mercy. Forgiveness and Community Toxicity Jesse makes the important observation that the fellow servants in the parable grieve and report the unforgiving servant's actions to the king. This isn't tattling—it's recognizing that unforgiveness damages the entire fellowship. Sin between believers is never purely private in its effects. It bleeds into relationships, worship, witness, and unity. The Reformed understanding of the church as a covenant community means we're interconnected; one member's unrepentant sin affects the whole body. This is why church discipline exists and why Matthew 18 begins with instructions for confronting sin. The community of faith should be marked by astonished mercy, and when one member harbors bitterness or refuses reconciliation, it introduces toxicity that grieves the Spirit and hinders the church's mission. Forgiveness, then, isn't just personal virtue—it's essential to the health and witness of Christ's body. Memorable Quotes "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. It's not even one thing, it's this whole process... it's about this whole process of a king who wished to settle these accounts with his slaves." "Forgiveness from the heart is a spirit-wrought mark of those who are truly pardoned. This is exactly the kind of evidence, not ground—it's evidence of reasoning that the Reformed tradition uses." "The King's free pardon creates a people who forgive from the heart. We don't have to manufacture it. We don't have to pull ourselves up by our spiritual bootstraps and try to be the kind of forgiving people that we think we ought to be. We are the beneficiaries of a King who has pardoned us."
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The Unforgiving Servant: A Picture of the Unregenerate Heart
03/09/2026
The Unforgiving Servant: A Picture of the Unregenerate Heart
In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb continue their journey through Matthew 18 by examining the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant. Building on their previous discussion of church discipline and reconciliation, the hosts explore how this parable reveals the shocking nature of divine forgiveness and what it means to live as forgiven people in the kingdom of God. Through careful exegesis and systematic theological reflection, they unpack the staggering contrast between the infinite debt we owe God and our comparatively minor grievances against one another. This conversation challenges listeners to examine whether their approach to forgiveness reflects genuine heart transformation or merely external compliance, ultimately pointing to the free justification that comes through Christ alone. Key Takeaways Context is crucial for understanding parables - The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant cannot be properly understood apart from the preceding discourse on church discipline, humility, and pursuing the straying in Matthew 18. The 10,000 talents represents an infinite, unpayable debt - This astronomical sum (equivalent to 200,000 years of wages) symbolizes the magnitude of our sin debt before God—a liability so vast it can never be repaid through human effort. The servant asks for time, not mercy - This reveals the natural human instinct to seek self-salvation through legalistic means rather than recognizing our complete inability to satisfy divine justice. God's forgiveness doesn't diminish Him - Unlike human forgiveness which requires absorbing a cost, God's infinite resources mean He can freely forgive without being harmed or changed by our sin. Kingdom forgiveness is habitual, not sporadic - Jesus' answer of "seventy-seven times" establishes that citizens of God's kingdom are characterized by a settled posture of forgiveness, not calculated limits. The unforgiving servant represents the unregenerate heart - His response to being forgiven reveals he never truly received or understood the king's mercy, demonstrating that forgiven people naturally become forgiving people. We don't forgive to be forgiven; we forgive because we've been forgiven - This parable illustrates the Protestant understanding of the "practical syllogism"—holy living evidences salvation but doesn't earn it. Key Themes The Impossibility of Self-Salvation The servant's request for "more time" to repay his debt exposes a fundamental misunderstanding of both the magnitude of his obligation and the nature of salvation. When the servant says "I will pay you everything," he demonstrates a staggering level of self-delusion—he genuinely believes he can somehow accumulate 200,000 years worth of wages. This mirrors the natural human tendency toward works-righteousness, where we imagine that with the right formula, enough time, or sufficient effort, we can restore ourselves to God's favor. Like Martin Luther's desperate bargaining on the road to Erfurt ("Save me and I'll become a monk"), fallen humanity consistently underestimates the severity of sin and overestimates our capacity for moral restoration. The parable exposes this thinking as not merely mistaken but absurd—revealing that our spiritual insolvency is so complete that only divine intervention through free justification can address it. God's Ability to Absorb the Cost of Forgiveness A critical theological insight from this parable concerns God's capacity to forgive without being diminished. The king's ability to casually dismiss such an enormous debt reveals his extraordinary wealth—he possesses resources so abundant that forgiving this impossible sum doesn't threaten his solvency. This maps directly onto the doctrine of divine impassibility and God's self-sufficiency. When we sin against God, we don't injure Him or reduce His glory; therefore, His forgiveness doesn't require Him to recover something He's lost. This stands in stark contrast to Roman Catholic theology, which requires meritorious exchange and suggests God somehow benefits from our good works. The Reformed understanding, illustrated perfectly in this parable, is that God forgives from a position of infinite sufficiency—His mercy flows from abundance, not need. As Isaiah 55 teaches, His thoughts and ways are higher than ours precisely because this kind of lavish, free forgiveness is so otherworldly that we can barely comprehend it. The Fruit Test of Genuine Conversion The shocking reversal at the parable's conclusion—where the forgiven servant brutally demands repayment of a tiny debt—reveals that his initial pleading was not genuine repentance but self-preservation. His actions expose that he never truly received or understood the king's mercy, making him a picture of the unregenerate heart. This serves as a sobering warning that external religious behavior can mask an unchanged heart. The parable teaches that forgiven people naturally become forgiving people—not perfectly, but characteristically. This reflects the Reformed doctrine of the "practical syllogism," where we increase our assurance of salvation by examining the fruit of sanctification in our lives. Habitual unwillingness to extend forgiveness, especially when we claim to have received divine forgiveness, calls into question whether we've genuinely experienced God's transforming grace. The kingdom of heaven creates a community built on "astonished mercy"—people so overwhelmed by what they've been forgiven that extending forgiveness to others becomes their settled disposition. Memorable Quotes "It is good to waste a little time every day... just appreciate and stop for a second, even if it's in like just this mundane task." - Jesse Schwamb "Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing... but being a forgiving person is not how you become a forgiven person. It's what it looks like to be a forgiven person." - Tony Arsenal "The servant asks for time, not mercy... and that's the logic of self-salvation: Give me a little space, let me know what I have to do, give me more time and I'll fix it." - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: And what I find interesting is something that you just brought up and I think we should tease out, which is there's a flawed plea and this diluted promise, I say that because the servant, asks for time and not mercy. Which I think is a helpful distinction. And then he tries to promise what he cannot perform. So that's like the logic of self salvation, which is, give me a little space. Let me know what I have to do. Give me more time and I'll fix it. And I think the critical observation is the servant's words expose that. I don't think he understands the nature of his debt. He underestimates what he owes. He asks for the wrong thing, that's exactly what we do. We wanna know how we can fix it instead of understanding that it's unfixable, that only God himself can again be just and justifier through his son. [00:01:01] Welcome and Matthew 18 Setup [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 482 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:01:09] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:14] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So it turns out, not surprisingly, that Jesus is giving us an absolute masterclass in Matthew 18, and I think everybody, if they're just jumping in now, like you gotta go back and listen to some of these other episodes because I think we jumped into Matthew 18 thinking. We talk a little bit about this community life discourse that Jesus brings to us. He talks about humility in the first six verses. Then he gets into the seriousness of sin, the pursuing, the straying, the church discipline reconciliation. That's where it gets that famous passage about wherever two or three gathered, and we promised we wouldn't go there, and then we exactly went there in that last episode together. And then. Then I think there's still more left. There's this culmination where Peter asks a question, and it's not random. It's this natural follow up to everything that Jesus has said in this little partition that's Matthew 18, the call to gain your brother through patient pursuit and restoration, and it all comes to a head. So I say all of that. It is true pro gamina because. I think we've gotta appreciate that. That's where we're going in this conversation, but we're going there for a reason because the path has already been laid out for us. It's not just an isolated parable that we're getting to on this particular episode. It's really embedded in all of this stuff. Yeah, there's all this drama, there's all this dialogue, there's all this subtext, and Jesus is gonna give us a parallel to round it or parable to round it all out. [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:42] Parables Need Context [00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: I think what I'm learning as we work our way through these, um, and I've commented on this before, that I love when we start on these series because it feels like we have, you know, we have like some preliminary conversations when we're figuring out what we wanna do and we have like an idea roughly of where we think we're gonna go. And then I always end up learning or latching onto something, or a theme kind of organically develops either. Like explicitly on this, on the podcast are just sort of in my mind as, as I'm preparing and what I'm. Impressed by, and I think this is one of those things like I always had in the back of my head when I would think about the parables. Um, but what's really coming to the forefront, especially in these last couple episodes, is how much these parables exist in context. [00:03:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right? [00:03:29] Tony Arsenal: I think a lot of times parables get taught as like these sort of timeless, abstract, allegorical. Teaching truths that stand on their own completely absent from anything else. And there's obviously, there's certain elements of each parable that is rooted in a timeless truth and can, can stand on its own. But more so these parables are all coming. Christ is teaching the people in front of him something. Through the parable that's related to the context they're in. So I'm excited, um, to keep exploring that through the rest of the parable series. But then especially, I think it's gonna be great. I think this conversation's gonna be great tonight because it really is gonna open up. I think a lot of what we were seeing in the last one carries on into this, uh, into this parable in ways that I hadn't anticipated. So it's gonna be good. [00:04:14] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna. It's gonna be real good. Yeah. [00:04:16] The One With Unforgiving Servant [00:04:16] Jesse Schwamb: I realized that maybe we missed an opportunity with this whole series. I was recalling that famously, sometimes titles have really focused on, again, like what, what explicitly was going on in a particular like small conversation or episode. So, for instance, I think I liked Sherlock Holmes. It was always like the adventure of Sherlock Holmes and the Scarlet Thread, or the hundred Oscar bills. Right? And then also maybe equally famously. Not quite with the same prestige that sitcom series friends titled everything. Like the one with the [00:04:45] Tony Arsenal: one with, yeah. [00:04:46] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, exactly. So if you're wanna use that as your rubric for today, then this is the one with the unforgiving servant. So that's what we're gonna be getting to in Matthew 18. Yes. Is 18 starting in verse 21? You can go hang out there just ahead of us, because for a second we gotta talk. [00:05:02] Affirmation Pour Over Coffee [00:05:02] Jesse Schwamb: Affirmations. Denials, we didn't forget. We never forget. [00:05:06] Tony Arsenal: We never forget. [00:05:06] Jesse Schwamb: We never forget. So, Tony, are you affirming or denying against, [00:05:10] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. It's a, a pretty straightforward, uh, let's do it. Affirmation. Um, I, uh, feel like maybe I'm way behind the, the curve or the timeline. I don't know. Like, I'm way late to the show here. Um, I just recently, uh, like today it arrived from Amazon and I made my first cup. Of like traditional pour over coffee. Oh, nice. Um, which, you know, I, I was a drip coffee person for a while before like Keurigs were a thing. And then we've had a Keurig for many years and we're trying to save some money and, and cut some costs. Um, and Keurigs are nice. They're super convenient and there was certainly a season in life where that convenience was, was. I suppose I couldn't say it was a necessary convenience. 'cause then it's not a convenience, but it was a convenience that was worth the financial output that it took. Um, you know, when you've got kids and you're all of a sudden you're up at like three in the morning to not have to stumble around and wash a filter out and all that junk, but. But we're not in that phase right now. We're trying to save a little bit of money. So we kind of said like, should we do a drip coffee or should we just go pour over? I did my first pour over and I like immediately could tell the difference in the flavor and the way that the, the coffee tasted. Um, takes longer. But there's kind of a, there's sort of like a, [00:06:25] Jesse Schwamb: there's a joy in that. [00:06:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, there's like a joy and like a zen moment. I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning when I wake up of like actually like. Starting. One of the things I've heard about Drip, about pour over coffee is there's almost like a ritual element to it. Yes. Of brewing your coffee and getting it right and taking the time to do it. So I'm just affirming, uh, pour over coffee. Uh, we got like a relatively inexpensive, I think it was like a $30, $35 kit on Amazon that has everything you need. It's got like a metal filter. Um, so you don't have to buy filter paper, I guess the metal filters. Yes. Have more of the oil makes its way into the coffee. So it has like a, a richer flavor than when you use the paper. I don't, I'm kind of not a coffee snob. I don't, I wouldn't be able to tell a difference probably, but, um, but yeah, so I'm affirming pour over coffee. It was delicious. Uh, I made way too much of it. Uh, it's gonna take a little while to figure out like what the proportions are and stuff, but that's kind of the fun of him, right? Yes. Like you have to figure out your own particular kit. [00:07:22] Jesse Schwamb: It is, it seems to me like, and we have pour for coffee as well. Actually, I just made something the other day and was thinking about how bespoke a process it is and how if you go online or use the AI as super fun for this and you ask it like the best recipe, everybody's got their high conviction. Yeah. On how much coffee. The proportions of coffee and water, the temperature, the swirling, I dunno if you have a gooseneck kettle for this whole purpose. It is a super fun process, but it was striking me that I think like what's Samsung and Google phones are to the mobile world. So also is Pourer coffee because it's like this pilot, customized, do what you want. Kind of process. And I have an iPhone and I love it. There's nothing wrong with that, and that's maybe like the Curee or the Nespresso or whatever you have, but there is something fun about being able to customize the entire process. Yeah. And basically do whatever you want. I also, it's funny you bring this up because I was just reading something about Japanese, it ceremonies, I don't know. The internet happened to me and I got in this rabbit hole and. They were talking about how it's a process and how like Americans struggle with that because they sense that they're like, I, I want the drink. I don't care about the ritual. And this person was saying it is good to waste a little time every day. [00:08:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:08:38] Jesse Schwamb: And I think what they meant by that is exactly what you're saying is like just do appreciate and stop for a second, even if it's in like just this mundane task. To appreciate that it takes a little time. It's okay to wait and to let there be a kind of meditation and for us, like a more productive one while you're doing this thing. Yeah. Pour of a coffee is a great way to do that. I mean, it takes like, what, like maybe three when I do it, like three minutes. 'cause I have a timer. I said and we, I tried. I try to let it bloom. There's also, blooming is fun. Like how many things do you get to let bloom? [00:09:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:09:05] Jesse Schwamb: Like there's a whole process. It's, but it's fun. You're right. [00:09:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and you know, like. You buy a pour over coffee kit and like you, when you look on Amazon, like there are some that are very utilitarian looking. Yes. Like they're very almost industrial. Um, most of them look like you're brewing a magic potion. Like it's a, it's like a glass, like beaker and it has, the one we have has like a cork collar, so you can grab it and not burn your hands. It's like tied with a leather strip and it's like. It's kind of fun to have this and like you do, like you have to pour it a certain way and Right. I'm sure the coffee would taste fine if I just dumped the water in and didn't care about it. But, um, there is a whole process and I, I think, I think you're right. I like that phrase, like it's, it's a good thing to waste a little bit of time, and whether that's on like this or whether it's on a hobby that you're doing or even just like. Even if you have a Keurig, right? Even if you have a Keurig, just stand there and wait for it. Right? Like it's hard to do that, especially with as busy as our lives are. And I know for me it's often at like four 30 in the morning and I'm like, I've got, if on a good day, I have an hour and a half before the kids get up and I gotta make every minute count. But I think there's something in that idea that like. The, the minutes of waiting and just being peaceful and, and just sort of stopping those minutes count too. Like we agreed. We need to get away from thinking about those minutes as though they don't count. So yes. Um, affirming pour over coffee. It was delicious. The process is fun. Um, again, I feel like. I mean, I'm 43 years old. I feel like I, I probably should have done this at some point earlier in my life. Um, I texted my wife with a picture of it. She was out, um, she was out doing some shopping while I was brewing the first cup, and I texted her, I think, I think we're hipsters now. I'm not sure. [00:10:53] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. That's like classic on the hipster card. You gotta, and it's not just that, it's, you show it and it's like you, then you have the debate about how you make yours. Yeah. Like once you do the ratio of gram's water to coffee. [00:11:06] Tony Arsenal: I don't, I just, I just did whatever Google Gemini told me to do. I think it was like seven and a half [00:11:11] Jesse Schwamb: if you want. Have a fun, fun time. And again, we're speaking about time and it's lack of our lack of ability to really harness it really, because there's so much going on. But please. Next time we have a second go on YouTube and search for this because there's so many amazing, some of them are really good, uh, but everybody has their own recipe and I keep trying different ones and seeing what they taste like. And my palate is probably not refined enough to differentiate between most of them....
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Biblical Unity: Thinking the Same Thing in Philippians
03/02/2026
Biblical Unity: Thinking the Same Thing in Philippians
In this profound exploration of Philippians 1:27–2:11, Tony Arsenal unpacks Paul's urgent call to gospel-centered unity in the face of both external persecution and internal division. Preaching to Christ Community Church in Plainfield, NH, Arsenal demonstrates how the Philippian church's brewing conflict between two prominent women threatened their witness and weakened their defensive posture against genuine opposition. The sermon's theological centerpiece—the Christ hymn of Philippians 2:5-11—is presented not primarily as a doctrinal treatise on the incarnation, but as the supreme pattern for Christian humility and sacrificial service. Arsenal challenges believers to assess their own conflicts, embrace sober self-esteem that esteems others higher, and embody the mind of Christ who emptied himself, becoming obedient even to death on a cross for our sake. Key Takeaways Unity is a Command, Not a Suggestion: Paul commands the Philippians to "think the same thing" and be "of one mind"—language far stronger than mere harmony or getting along. This unity encompasses doctrinal agreement, practical cooperation, and relational reconciliation, all essential for presenting a united front against opposition to the gospel. Internal Division Undermines Gospel Witness: The conflict between Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3) was not peripheral but central to Paul's concern. When believers are divided by petty squabbles or unresolved conflicts, they distract from the gospel message and allow the true enemies of the faith to gain ground without resistance. Humility Means Esteeming Others Higher: Biblical humility is not self-degradation or denying the gifts God has given you. Rather, it's having a sober, honest assessment of yourself while deliberately choosing to recognize and celebrate the giftings in others as more significant than your own accomplishments. Christ's Humiliation is Our Pattern: The incarnation and Christ's entire earthly life—from conception through crucifixion—constituted a sustained act of humiliation and obedient suffering. This was not merely God accommodating himself to our understanding, but the incarnate Son actually experiencing weakness, pain, persecution, and death as our example and substitute. Suffering for Christ is a Gift: Paul presents suffering for the sake of Christ not as evidence of weak faith or divine abandonment, but as a privilege granted by God. This suffering serves as a sign both of the eventual destruction of God's enemies and the certain salvation of his people. Practical Unity Requires Concrete Action: Unity is not achieved through vague commitments to "love God and love others" but through specific, agreed-upon practices—how the church handles requests for help, who makes decisions, how conflicts are resolved, and whether members are working toward the same vision. Reconciliation Cannot Wait: Jesus prioritizes reconciliation with an offended brother or sister even over worship at the altar. If you know someone has something against you—or if you're the one harboring offense—make it right this week, because coming to worship while unreconciled places you in opposition to God himself. Key Concepts The Military Metaphor of Standing Side by Side Paul's instruction to "strive side by side" (Philippians 1:27) deliberately evokes the image of ancient military formations, particularly the phalanx used by Greek and Roman soldiers. In this formation, soldiers would stand shoulder to shoulder with large shields overlapping, creating an nearly impenetrable defensive wall. The strength of the phalanx wasn't in individual prowess but in unified cohesion—when soldiers stood together, pressure from enemies actually reinforced rather than weakened their defense. Paul applies this tactical reality to the church: Christians facing opposition must present such a united front that external pressure only strengthens rather than fractures their fellowship. This requires not just agreement in principle but actual coordination of thought, spirit, and action. When believers are divided—bickering over personal preferences, nursing interpersonal grievances, or pursuing selfish ambition—they break formation, leaving gaps through which spiritual enemies can attack. The Philippian church, facing real persecution in a Roman colony, needed to grasp that their internal conflicts were tactical vulnerabilities that could prove fatal to their witness. The Incarnation as Sustained Humiliation The traditional Reformed understanding of Christ's "humiliation" encompasses his entire earthly existence from conception to burial, not merely his passion and crucifixion. Arsenal emphasizes that when Philippians 2:6-8 describes Christ "emptying himself" and "humbling himself," Paul has the whole trajectory of incarnate life in view. From the moment the eternal Son took on human nature in Mary's womb—experiencing the compression of birth, the skinned knees of childhood, the weariness of labor, the sting of rejection from family and friends, and ultimately the agony of crucifixion—every moment constituted an act of voluntary humiliation. This was not playacting; Christ genuinely experienced human weakness, limitation, suffering, and mortality. He "learned obedience through what he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8), meaning the incarnate Son actually underwent a process of human development and moral formation, though without sin. This comprehensive view of Christ's humiliation serves Paul's ethical argument: if the eternal Son of God willingly embraced such comprehensive lowliness for the sake of others, how much more should believers embrace inconvenience, discomfort, and self-sacrifice for the good of fellow Christians and the advancement of the gospel? Sober Self-Esteem vs. False Humility Arsenal challenges a common misunderstanding of Christian humility—the notion that godliness requires constant self-deprecation and denial of one's gifts and abilities. He argues that such "worm theology" actually dishonors God by refusing to acknowledge the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification and the gifts distributed by the Spirit for the body's edification. True humility, as Paul describes it in Philippians 2:3-4, consists of having an honest, accurate assessment of yourself—recognizing your genuine gifts, calling, training, and spiritual progress—while simultaneously making the deliberate choice to recognize and celebrate others' gifts as more significant than your own. This is not a zero-sum calculation where acknowledging others requires diminishing yourself. Rather, it's an abundance mentality: "I'm genuinely good at X because God has gifted me, and I thank him for that; but when I see someone else gifted in Y, I'm even more excited about their contribution than my own." This perspective prevents both false humility (which can mask pride) and competitive jealousy (which destroys unity). It creates the conditions for genuine collaboration where believers work "side by side" without jockeying for position or recognition. Memorable Quotes "We certainly face real pressures to conform to the patterns of this world rather than to the pattern of Christ—that is the real enemy that Paul is encouraging and commanding the Philippians and therefore us to stand against. And we cannot do that if we don't have a united front." "Our salvation, both as individual Christians and also as the church as a whole, corporately, it actually brings about the destruction of our enemies. In the last day, when Christ makes all things right, he's not just taking the saints to heaven and then putting all of the wicked off in some other place. He descends with the voice of an archangel, he slaughters all of his enemies, and through that destruction of his enemies, he saves those who are his." "God is not calling us to think of ourselves as trash. He made us in his image. He's called us for his glory. He's empowered us by His Holy Spirit and we insult him when we don't acknowledge the gifts that he's given us. But what he is commanding us to do is to see the giftings in other people and to esteem those as higher than our own." Full Transcript [The complete, unedited transcript of the episode is provided above in the source material.]
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Matthew 18 and Luke 15: How the Same Parable Teaches Two Different Truths
02/23/2026
Matthew 18 and Luke 15: How the Same Parable Teaches Two Different Truths
In this episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore one of Scripture's most fascinating puzzles: the parable of the lost sheep appears in both Luke 15 and Matthew 18, yet teaches dramatically different lessons depending on its context. In Luke, it defends Christ's mission to seek the lost and exposes Pharisaic self-righteousness. In Matthew, it becomes a pastoral manual for church discipline, humility, and restoration. This conversation challenges the common assumption that parables have only one meaning and demonstrates how the same story can illuminate multiple theological truths. The hosts unpack the scandalous grace woven throughout both accounts while wrestling with practical implications for church life, confrontation, and the celebration of repentance within the covenant community. Key Takeaways Context transforms meaning: The parable of the lost sheep appears in both Luke 15 and Matthew 18 with similar wording but vastly different applications—proving that parables can have multiple valid meanings depending on their literary and theological context. Matthew 18's audience is internal: Unlike Luke 15, which addresses outsiders and critics, Matthew 18 speaks to disciples about life within the kingdom community—focusing on humility, care for "little ones," and the church's responsibility toward vulnerable or straying members. The parable sets up church discipline: In Matthew 18, the lost sheep parable (vv. 12-14) directly precedes and theologically grounds the church discipline passage (vv. 15-20), teaching that confrontation should be motivated by pastoral rescue, not punitive justice. "Little ones" matter to the Father: The phrase "little ones" refers to children, new believers, and those vulnerable within the church—Christ warns sternly against despising them and insists it is not the Father's will that any should perish (v. 14). Restoration is the goal, not excommunication: Verse 15's language of "gaining your brother" frames confrontation as recovery. Even final excommunication (v. 17) should be carried out with ongoing hope for repentance and return, not with triumphalism or relief. Christ's presence empowers difficult work: The promise that "where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them" (v. 20) is not a general prayer meeting verse—it's a specific assurance of Christ's authorizing presence during the judicial and painful work of church discipline. Divine intention shapes church posture: The statement "it is not the will of my Father...that one of these little ones should perish" (v. 14) must color every step of the discipline process, ensuring the church never loses sight of God's restorative heart. Explanatory Paragraphs Context Transforms Meaning One of the most significant insights from this episode is the recognition that the parable of the lost sheep serves distinct theological purposes in Luke 15 and Matthew 18. In Luke, Jesus tells the parable to Pharisees and scribes who criticize Him for welcoming sinners—the lost sheep represents those outside the covenant community whom Christ seeks. In Matthew, however, Jesus addresses His disciples within the context of kingdom life, and the lost sheep represents a believer who has wandered from the fold. This contextual shift demonstrates that parables are not rigid allegories with single meanings but flexible teaching tools that illuminate different facets of divine truth. The hosts argue that this reality should free interpreters from overly narrow readings and encourage careful attention to literary setting, audience, and surrounding discourse when seeking to understand Jesus' teaching. The Parable Sets Up Church Discipline In Matthew 18, the parable of the lost sheep (vv. 12-14) is not an isolated story but a theological foundation for the church discipline instructions that immediately follow (vv. 15-20). By emphasizing the shepherd's joy in recovering the one lost sheep and stating that it is not God's will for any "little one" to perish, Jesus prepares His disciples to approach confrontation with a restorative rather than punitive mindset. The language of "gaining your brother" (v. 15) echoes the recovery theme of the parable—confrontation is rescue, not victory. This connection is often missed because English Bible headings create visual breaks between verses 14 and 15, obscuring their flow. When read together without interruption, the passage reveals that every step of church discipline—from private conversation to final excommunication—must be undertaken with the Father's heart, which longs for the wanderer's return rather than their expulsion. Christ's Presence Empowers Difficult Work The promise in Matthew 18:20—"where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them"—is frequently misapplied as a general encouragement for small prayer groups or house churches. While Christ's omnipresence certainly validates such gatherings, the primary context of this verse is judicial and ecclesiastical. The "two or three" echoes the Old Testament requirement for multiple witnesses in matters requiring serious judgment (Deuteronomy 19:15), and the phrase appears at the climax of Jesus' teaching on church discipline. Christ is promising His authorizing presence specifically during the church's most difficult and painful work: confronting sin, evaluating repentance, and when necessary, declaring someone outside the visible church. This is both sobering and comforting—sobering because it reminds us that church discipline carries divine weight, and comforting because Christ does not leave His church alone in this weighty task but stands in the midst of the assembly, confirming its righteous judgments and sustaining its members through heartbreak. Memorable Quotes "This almost proves the idea that parables have one meaning just isn't really real...a single parable with the same words can have multiple, at the very least, can have multiple gradations of meaning." — Tony Arsenal "The scandal here is that it's not God's will that any one of these little ones should be lost. And that sometimes, I think, in the midst of great conflict feels scandalous." — Jesse Schwamb "Gaining your brother frames confrontation as rescue...discipline begins maybe actually all the way through as pastoral care. It's not public shaming." — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [The complete, unedited transcript of the episode would be included here for reference and accessibility.]
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Sin as Debt: Why Financial Language Reveals the Gospel's Power
02/16/2026
Sin as Debt: Why Financial Language Reveals the Gospel's Power
In a theological landscape that often softens sin into "brokenness," Episode 480 re-establishes the biblical category of sin as debt. Jesse Schwamb takes us into the house of Simon the Pharisee to analyze the Parable of the Two Debtors. The central argument is forensic: sin creates an objective liability against God’s justice that no amount of human currency—tears, works, or religious heritage—can satisfy. We explore the critical distinction between the cause of justification (God’s free grace) and the evidence of justification (love and repentance). This episode dismantles the self-righteous math of the Pharisee and points us to the only currency God accepts: the finished work of Christ. Key Takeaways Sin is Objective Debt: Sin is not merely a relational slight; it is a quantifiable liability on God’s ledger that demands clearing. Universal Insolvency: Whether you owe 50 denarii (the moralist) or 500 denarii (the open sinner), the result is the same: total inability to pay. God Names the Claim: The debtor does not get to negotiate the terms of repayment; only the Creditor determines the acceptable currency. Love is Fruit, Not Root: The sinful woman’s love was the evidence that she had been forgiven, not the payment to purchase forgiveness. The Danger of Horizontal Math: Simon’s error was comparing his debt to the woman’s, rather than comparing his assets to God’s standard. Justification by Grace: Forgiveness is a free cancellation of the debt, based entirely on the benevolence of the Moneylender (God). Key Concepts The Definition of Money and Grace To understand Luke 7, we must understand money. Money is a system of credit accounts and their clearing. When we apply this to theology, we realize that "religious effort" is a currency that God does not accept. We are like travelers trying to pay a US debt with Zimbabwean dollars. The Gospel is the news that Christ has entered the market with the only currency that satisfies the Father—His own righteousness—and has cleared the accounts of those who are spiritually bankrupt. The Pharisee’s Calculation Error Simon the Pharisee wasn't condemned because he wasn't a sinner; he was condemned because he thought his debt was manageable. He believed he had "surplus righteousness." This is the deadly error of legalism. By assuming he owed little, he loved little. He treated Jesus as a guest to be evaluated rather than a Savior to be worshipped. A low view of our own sin inevitably leads to a low view of Christ’s glory. Evangelical Obedience The woman in the passage demonstrates what Reformed theologians call "evangelical obedience"—obedience that flows from faith and gratitude, not from a desire to earn merit. Her tears did not wash away her sins; the blood of Christ did that. Her tears were the overflow of a heart that realized the mortgage had been burned. We must never confuse the fruit of salvation with the root of salvation. Quotes Tears don't cancel the ledger. Christ does that. Tears are what debtors do when Mercy lands. Grace received produces love expressed. A creditor doesn't need to be convinced you did harm. The ledger already stands. Transcript [00:01:10] Welcome to The Reformed Brotherhood + Teasing the Parable [00:01:10] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 480 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for those with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters, how great is it that we have these incredible teachings of Jesus? Can we talk about that for a second? Tony and I have loved hanging out in these parables with you all, and Tony will be back next week. Don't you worry. But in the meantime, I've got another parable for us to consider, and I figured we would just get. Straight to the points, but I have to let you in in a little secret first, and that is not even Tony knows until he hears this, which parable I've selected for us to chat about. And I knew that there might come a time where I would be able to sneak in with this parable because I love. This parable, and I love it because it's so beautiful in communicating the full breadth and scope of the gospel of God's grace and his mercy for all of his children. And it just makes sense to me, and part of the reason why it makes so much sense to me is. The topic which is embedded in this is something that more or less I've kind of built my career around, and so it just resonates with me. It makes complete sense. I understand it inside and out. I feel a connection to what Jesus is saying here very predominantly because the topic at hand means so much to me, and I've seen it play out in the world over and over and over again. So if that wasn't enough buildup and you're not ready, I have no idea what will get you prepared, but we're going to go hang out in Luke chapter seven, and before I even give you a hint as to what this amazing, the really brief parable is, it does take a little bit of setup, but rather than me doing the setup. What do you say if we just go to the scriptures? Let's just let God's word set up the environment in which this parable is gonna unfold. And like a good movie or a good narrative, even as you hear this, you might be pulled in the direction of the topic that you know is coming. And so I say to you, wait for it. Wait for it is coming. [00:03:20] Luke 7 Setup: Simon’s Dinner & the “Sinful Woman” Arrives [00:03:20] Jesse Schwamb: So this is Luke's book, his gospel chapter seven, beginning in verse 36. Now one of the Pharisees was asking Jesus to eat with him, and Jesus entered the Pharisees house and reclined at the table. And behold, there was a woman in the city who was a sinner, and when she learned that he was reclining at the table in the Pharisees house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume. And standing behind him at his feet crying. She began to wet his feet with her tears, and she kept wiping them with her hair over her head and kissing his feet and anointing them with perfume. Now, in the Pharisee, who had invited him, saw this, he said to himself saying, if this man were, he would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching him, that she is a sinner. Let's stop there for a second. So this incredible dinner party that Jesus attends and here is this woman. Well, all we're told is that she's a woman who's identified as a sinner. Clearly moved by the presence of Jesus clearly wanting to worship him in a very particular way. By the way, loved ones. Can we address the fact that this goes back to something Tony and I have been talking about, I dunno, for like seven episodes now, which is coming outta Luke chapter 15. This idea that sinners, the marginalized, the outcasts, the down and out, they were drawn to Jesus. Something about him, his presence, the power of his teaching drew them in, but in a way that invited vulnerability, this kind of overwhelming response to who he was. And what his mission was. And so here maybe is like any other occurrence that happened in Jesus' day, maybe like a million other accounts that are not recorded in the scriptures. But here's one for us to appreciate that. Here's this woman coming, and her response is to weep before him, and then with these tears, to use them to wash his feet and to anoint him with this precious perfume. Now, there's a lot of people at this dinner party. At least we're led to believe. There's many, and there's one Pharisee in particular whose home this was. It was Simon. And so out of this particular little vignette, there's so much we could probably talk about. But of course what we see here is that the Pharisee who invited him, Simon, he sees this going on. He does not address it verbally, but he has his own opinions, he's got thoughts and he's thinking them. And so out of all of that, then there's a pause. And I, I would imagine that if we were to find ourselves in that situation, maybe we'd be feeling the tension of this. It would be awkward, I think. And so here we have Jesus coming in and giving them this account, this parable, and I wanna read the parable in its entirety. It's very, very short, but it gives us a full sense of both. Like what's happening here? It's both what's happening, what's not happening, what's being. Presented plain for us to see what's below the surface that Jesus is going to reveal, which is both a reflection on Simon and a reflection on us as well. [00:06:18] The Two Debtors Parable (Read in Full) [00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picking up in, in verse 40, and Jesus answered and said to him, Simon, I owe something to say to you. And he replied, say it, teacher a money lender had two debtors, one owned 500 in RI and the other 50. When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more? Simon answered and said, I suppose the one who he graciously forgave more, and he said to him, you have judged correctly and turning toward the woman. He said to Simon, do you see this woman? I entered your house? You gave me no water from my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with perfume. For this reason, I say to you her sins, which are many have been forgiven for. She loved much, but he who is forgiven, little loves little. Then he said to her, your sins have been forgiven, and those were reclining at the table. With him began to say to themselves, who is this man who even forgives sins? And he said to the woman, your faith has saved you. Go in peace. [00:07:42] What This Scene Teaches: Sin, Forgiveness, Love as Fruit [00:07:42] Jesse Schwamb: What a beautiful, tiny, deep, amazing instruction from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. So in this just short 10 verses here, it's we're sitting inside. This dinner at Simon, the Pharisees house, and a woman known publicly only as a sinner, has shown some striking love toward Jesus, and Jesus explains her actions. Then through this mini parable of debt, two debtors, one creditor, neither can pay. Both are freely forgiven. Love flows. Then from that forgiveness. And so there's a lot within the reform theological spectrum here that helps us to really understand. I think the essential principles of what's going on here, and I just wanna hit on some of those and chat with you about those and hopefully encourage you in those as I'm trying to encourage myself. First, we get some sense about what sin really is like. We get a sense of the inability to cope with sin. We get the free forgiveness that's grounded in Christ, in Christ alone, and we get this idea of love and repentance as the fruit or the evidence, not the cause of justification. Now to set this whole thing up. [00:08:50] Why Talk About Money? Defining Money as Credit & Clearing [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: I do think it's so important for us to talk about money for a second, not money, like we're gonna have a budget talk, not what you spend on groceries or your vacation, not even what you do in terms of planning for your retirement or what you give to the church in way of tithe than offering none of that. I'm actually more interested to talk to you about money itself. One of the things I love to ask people. Especially when I was teaching students in money and finance is the question, what is money? And I bet you if you and I were hanging out across the kitchen table and I asked you, what is money? I'm guessing you would go in one or two directions. Either you would gimme examples of money, types of money. You might talk about the US dollar or the Zimbabwean dollar, or the Euro or the Yuan. That would be correct in a way, but really that's just symptomatic of money because that's just an example or a type of some money that you might use. And of course those definitions are not ubiquitous because if I take my US dollars and I go travel to see our Scott brothers and sisters, more than likely that money. That currency, those dollars will not be accepted in kind. There'd have to be some kind of translation because they're not acceptable in that parts of the world. That's true of most types of money. Or you might go to talking about precious metals and the price of gold or silver and how somehow these seem to be above and beyond the different types of currency or paper, currency in our communities and around our world. And of course, you'd be right as an example of a type of money, but. Gold itself, if you press on it, is not just money, it's describing as some kind of definition of what money is. The second direction you might take is you might describe for me all the things that money is like its attributes. Well, it must be accepted generally as a form of currency. It might must be used to discharge debt or to pay taxes, or it must have a store of value and be able to be used as a medium of exchange. And you would be correct about all of those things as well because. Probably, whether you know it or not, you're an expert in money because you have to use it in some way to transact in this lifetime. But even those are again, just attributes. It's not what money is in its essential first principle. So this is not like an economics lecture, I promise, but I think it is something that Jesus is actually truly drawing us to, and that is the best definition of money I can give, is money is a system of credit accounts and their clearing. It's a whole system of credit accounts and their clearing. So think of it like this, every time you need something from somebody else. Anytime you wanna buy something or you wanna sell something, what's happening there is somebody is creating a claim. So let's say that I go to the grocery store and I fill up the cart with all kinds of fruits and vegetables and meats, and I'm at the counter to check out. What I've just done is said that I have all of these things I would like to take from the grocery store, and now the grocery store has some kind of claim because they're handing them over to me and I need a way to settle that claim. And the way that I settle that claim is using money. It is the method that allows us to settle those transactions. And in my particular instance, it's going to be the US dollar, or maybe it's just ones and zeros electronically, of course representing US dollars. But in this case, the way I settle it is with money and a particular type of money. But, and I want you to keep this in mind 'cause we're gonna come back to it. This is my whole setup for this whole thing. The reason why this is important is because you have to have the type of money. That will settle the debt or settle the creditor. You have to have the thing itself that the creditor demands so that you can be a hundred percent released from the claim that they have on you. If you do not have exactly a. The type of money that they desire, then the debt will not be released. The creditor will not be satisfied. You will not go free, and that it's so critically important. [00:12:52] Sin as Objective Debt: God Names the Claim [00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: I think it's just like this really plain backdrop to what's happening here When Jesus addresses Simon with this whole parable. So he starts this whole idea by saying to Simon that he is something to say to him, which I think in a way is profound anyway, because Simon invites him to speak. But Jesus here is taking the initiative. Simon is the host. He socially, as it were, above this sinful woman. But Jesus becomes the true examiner of the heart in this parable. What we have is. Christ's word interrupts self-justifying narratives, and clearly there was a self-justifying narrative going on in Simon's head. We know this because we're privy to his thoughts in the text here. The gospel does not wait here for the Pharisee to figure it out, the gospel lovingly correct. Always goes in, always initiates, always intervenes as Christ intercedes. And here, before any accounting happens, Jesus sets the terms. God is the one who names the debt, not the debtor. And this really is probably the beating hearts, the center of gravity of this whole exchange. I love that Jesus goes to this parable. Of a money lender, a money lender who had two debtors, one owned, 500, one owned 50. Now of course, I would argue that really, you can put this in any currency, you can translate into modern terms, you can adjust it for inflation. It doesn't really matter. What we have here is one relatively small debt, another debt 10 times the size. So one small, one large, and that's the juxtaposition. That's the whole setup here. And I would submit to you something super important that Jesus does here, which flies in the face of a lot of kind of just general wishy-washy evangelicalism that teaches us somehow that sin is just not doing it quite right, or is just a little brokenness, or is just in some way just slightly suboptimal or missing the mark. It is those things, but it is not the entirety of those things because what's clear here is that Jesus frames sin as debt. In other words, it's an objective liability. A liability is just simply something of value that you owe to somebody else. And I am going to presume that almost everybody within an earshot of my voice here all over the world has at some point incurred debt. And I think there's, there's lots of great and productive reasons to incur debt. Debt itself is not pejorative. That would be a whole nother podcast. We could talk about. Maybe Tony and I sometime, but. What is true is that debt is an objective liability. The amounts differ, but both are genuinely in the red here. And what's critical about this is that because debt is this objective reality, whenever you enter into an arrangement of debt, let's say that you borrow some money to purchase a car or home or simply to make some kind of purchase in your life, that's unsecured debt. In all of those cases, the. The one lending you the money, the creditor now has a claim on you. What's important to understand here is that this kind of thing changes it. It provides way more color and contrast to really the effects of what sin is and what sin does in its natural accountability. And so in this way we have this nuance that there are differences in outward sin and its social consequences. That is for sure that's how life works, but all sin is ultimately against God and makes us debtors to divine justice. That is now God has a claim against us. And this shouldn't make sense because unless we are able to satisfy that claim, all have that claim against them all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And as a result of this, it's not just that we somehow have lived a way that is just slightly off the mark and suboptimal, but instead that we've heaped up or accumulated for ourselves an objective liability, which is truly. Owed to God and because it is truly owed him, he's the one who can only truly satisfy it. This is why the scripture speak of God as being both just and justifier. That is a just creditor ensures that the debt is paid before it is released, and the one who is justifier is the one who pays that debt to ensure it will be released. God does both of these things through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Praise be to his name. So here we have a really true understanding. Of what sin is. There's no mincing of words here. There's a ubiquity in all of our worlds about money lending and borrowing, and Christ leans into that heavily. We know for a fact that the ancient Mesopotamians learned how to calculate interests before they figured out to put wheels on car. And so this idea of lending and borrowing and indebtedness, this whole concept has an ancient pedigree, and Jesus leans into this. And so we have this really lovely and timeless example of...
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The Prodigal Son's Father: God's Unconditional Love and Divine Initiative
02/09/2026
The Prodigal Son's Father: God's Unconditional Love and Divine Initiative
In this profound exploration of Luke 15, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb complete their examination of the Parable of the Prodigal Son by focusing on the often-overlooked central figure: the father. Rather than a sentimental character, the father serves as a revelatory figure who demonstrates God's nature toward returning prodigals and resentful religious people alike. This episode challenges common misinterpretations of the parable, particularly regarding the father's running to meet his son, and explores how the parable simultaneously confronts both antinomianism and legalism. The hosts demonstrate how the father's love—not the son's repentance—is the driving force of redemption, offering vital insights into God's character and the nature of grace that should transform how we understand salvation and our relationship with the Heavenly Father. Key Takeaways The Father is the Keystone: The father, not the sons, is the central, load-bearing character of the parable, revealing God's character and serving as the foundation for understanding the entire narrative. Divine Initiative Precedes Human Response: The father's compassion and action are described before the son completes his confession, demonstrating that God's mercy initiates reconciliation rather than being triggered by repentance. The Father's "Running" Represents Condescension, Not Embarrassment: Contrary to popular interpretations, the father's running should be understood as divine condescension—God crossing the distance sin creates—rather than undignified self-abasement. God's Love Drives the Plan of Redemption: The parable corrects the theological error of pitting the Son against the Father, showing instead that the Father's love is the motivating force behind salvation (John 3:16). The Parable Confronts Two Errors Simultaneously: Jesus addresses both the younger son's rebellion (antinomianism) and the older son's self-righteousness (legalism), showing that both require the same gracious response from the Father. Wrath is God's "Alien Work": The father shows no wrath in the parable, illustrating that while God's wrath against sin is real, it is not his primary disposition—love and grace are central to his nature. The Insanity of Not Rejoicing: The shocking element of the parable isn't the father's celebration but the older brother's refusal to join it, directly confronting the Pharisees' attitude toward sinners being welcomed into God's kingdom. Key Concepts The Father's Compassion and the Nature of Grace The parable reveals that the father's compassion is active before any condition is met by the returning son. When the text says "while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion," we witness divine initiative in action. This sequence matters tremendously for our understanding of grace. The son had prepared a speech—a negotiation for hired servant status—but the father's embrace interrupts the transaction. Grace is not extracted from God by human improvement or the quality of our repentance; it flows from God's own character and will. This theological reality guards against both presumption and despair. We cannot presume upon grace as though sin doesn't matter—the father clearly identifies the son's condition as "death" and "lostness." Yet neither can we despair that our repentance might be insufficient to move God—his love precedes and enables our return. As Ephesians 1:4-6 declares, God chose us "before the foundation of the world...according to the pleasure of His goodwill." The father's running illustrates what was true before time began: God's saving disposition originates in himself, not in us. Condescension versus Decorum: Rethinking the Father's Run Much scholarship has emphasized the supposed shame of a patriarch running, suggesting this represents God's willingness to be embarrassed for our sake. However, this interpretation may miss the mark. The running should be understood as condescension—God stooping to save—rather than a violation of decorum. Throughout Scripture, God is described as "bearing Israel up as a man carries his son" (Deuteronomy 1:31) and having compassion that "grows warm" (Hosea 11:8). These are images of condescension: the infinite God making himself accessible to finite creatures. The distinction matters because it shapes how we understand God's character. If the father's running is primarily about embarrassment, the focus remains on cost to dignity. But if it's about condescension, the focus shifts to the nature of love that bridges distance. Any parent who has seen a long-lost child return understands this instinct—you don't calculate dignity; you simply run. The father's action isn't surprising or unusual given the circumstances; what's shocking is the older brother's refusal to share in the joy. This interpretation better fits the parable's context and Jesus's purpose in telling it to the Pharisees. The Father's Love as the Engine of Redemption Perhaps the most crucial theological correction this parable offers concerns the relationship between the Father and the Son in the economy of salvation. Some theological circles wrongly pit "the wrathful Father" against "the loving Son," as though Jesus came to change the Father's mind about sinners. This parable demolishes that error. The father's love is the initiating force of the entire narrative. Before the son returns, the father is disposed to welcome him. Before the older son rejects the celebration, the father goes out to plead with him. This reflects the biblical pattern consistently: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (John 3:16)—the Father's love gives the Son. The covenant of redemption originates in the Father's love for the elect. The incarnation, atonement, and application of redemption all flow from the Father's initiative. Wrath, while real and righteous, is God's "alien work"—not foreign to him, but not his primary disposition either. The father in the parable displays nothing but gracious intention toward both sons, never manipulated into love, never coerced into mercy, but freely extending restoration because it flows from who he is. Memorable Quotes The love of God the Father is the motivating factor that drives the whole plan of redemption...So it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love. - Tony Arsenal The father in this archway is the keystone. He's the load-bearing character in this whole parable. He's not just a sentimental figure, he's a revelatory figure. He shows us what God is like toward returning prodigals and toward resentful older brothers. - Jesse Schwamb The point that the parable is making is that the love of this father drives him to exert himself and close that distance...There is never a point in the parable where there's anything shown by the father except for love for his people. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: In a lot of theological circles, this takes the form of pitting the son against the father, like God, the Son against God, the Father the son placated the father. Because the father was wrathful and angry, so Jesus had to come down and die and now the Father can love us. The reality is the love of God the father, is the motivating factor that drives the plan of redemption, and that's the same love of the Son and the same love of the spirit. In the most famous verse in the Bible, for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that's God the Father So it's God the Father's love that drives the whole plan of salvation. The whole covenant of redemption is initiated in light of the Father's love [00:00:53] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 479 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:01:00] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:06] Discussing the Parable of the Lost Son [00:01:06] Jesse Schwamb: We've been famously in the parable of the Lost Son or The Lost Sons. Or the father. Everybody knows this. And today on this episode, we're at least gonna close out our conversation about Luke Chapter 15. And I think everybody should just imagine that this parable is like a grand stone archway that's being constructed in such a way that it has to bear its own weight. And the father in this archway is the keystone. He's the load-bearing character in this whole parable. He's not just like a sentimental figure, he's a revelatory figure. He shows us what God is like toward returning prodigals and toward resentful older brothers. And Jesus uses this to fire up our understanding of the kingdom and the gospel, and also to fire up the scribes and the Sadducees. So we're talking about the Father on this episode, and he's rightfully the culminating character here. He's the keystone. So we're gonna get to arch building, keytones load bearing stuff, all the engineering that you wanted us to talk about in this parable. First we, we gotta do that thing. We just gotta do it, Tony. [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, we do. [00:02:17] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:17] Jesse Schwamb: It's affirmations and denial. So are you, and your excitement is palpable. Are you affirming or are you denying against, [00:02:24] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying something tonight? It's a little bit heavy. [00:02:26] Political Discourse and Christian Perspective [00:02:26] Tony Arsenal: Um, we haven't, and, and we don't typically wade into political discourse or what's going on in politics. Um, that's just not really our, our lane. And that's not that there's anything wrong with shows that do, or that there's anything wrong with Christians who want to be involved in political discourse. It's just not really our thing. But, um, you know, I, I grew up in Minneapolis and I have family still in Minneapolis and I was texting with my sister the other day who, um, lives and works right in downtown Minneapolis. And so I think, I think what I'm denying is not necessarily anything related directly to ICE or to the political positions. Um, what I see online. Is that there is a. Bifurcation. There are, there seems to be, and I think this is probably just the, like the nature of online discourse. So I don't think this is necessarily the way it is in the real world, but what I see online is there seems to be sort of progressive leaning Christians who are totally anti-ice. This is the worst thing ever. Um, you know, nobody who's being arrested and deported deserves it and all of the ice people here, but that's one perspective. And then what I tend to see on the other side is ice is like God's righteous warriors and everyone who they scoop up it deserves it no matter what. And they can do no wrong. And, uh. I am not making a commentary. Um, if you want to ask me directly in, in privately what I think about it, I, I'm happy to have a conversation. I'm not doing that right now. Um, I have no commentary on the legality of the, the deportations or the legality of the way they're conducting arrests. That's just, I'm just not interested in talking about that on, on a podcast. But what I do think is challenging and what I think we need to think about as Christians is there is a real. [00:04:24] Reflecting on Suffering and Compassion [00:04:24] Tony Arsenal: Human cost associated with what's going on, and there are lives, um, that are affected and there are people who are scared. I, I think where this really hit me is I just texted my sister to, you know, to tell her that I was praying for her and, and get sort of a general check-in. And she shared with me, and I'm sure that this is not unique to her context. She shared with me that she has, uh, colleagues at, uh, her place of employment, um, who are, are American citizens born in the us, born to citizens. Like there's no question about their citizenship. Um, and they are afraid to leave their home and afraid to go to work. Again, I'm not making any commentary on whether there's illegal things going on. I'm not even making any commentary on whether or not, um, I think it's reasonable for them to be afraid. Um, the fact of the matter is they are afraid to to leave their homes, and some of those people are probably afraid to leave their homes because they feel like ice is going to harass them. Other people are probably afraid to leave their homes because there's a lot of violence and a lot of, uh, unrest going on. But in, in either case, uh, I think we as Christians should look at this and see that there are a lot of hurting people who need Jesus. And there are a lot of people who are scared and there's a lot of people who are suffering real concrete arm all across the whole spectrum of this situations. So as Christians, I think we should be praying that God's will would be done and God does not delight in suffering for, you know, for suffering sake. He doesn't delight in people being hurt or harmed or even emotionally scarred. Um. You know, we have sometimes this picture of God who's so abstract that those things he, that they don't bother him. And that's true from like a strictly theological sense, but we also have to reconcile what the scripture says and what it, what the picture it paints. Um, at the very least, God, uh, reveals himself under the language of grieving, uh, injustice and grieving misery and grieving sorrow and suffering. So we should be a people that reflects that. Uh, although there are times when those things are necessary, both in the life of a Christian and then also as a result of sin in, we, we shouldn't be reveling in it and, and being excited about the fact that this is happening. So I, I might get some heat for this and I guess I don't really care all that much. Um, but I think this polarized like. Every person who's scooped up by ice is, is a terrible, awful criminal. And it doesn't really matter what their story is. And then anyone who's scooped up by ice is just a total victim. And it doesn't really matter what their story is like neither of those polls are true for most of the situations, um, to, you know, the story probably drift towards one side or another, and they're not all like right in the middle. But, um, the, the truth is that the world and life is complex and we shouldn't treat it as though it's, it's simple. It really is not, in most cases, [00:07:30] Jesse Schwamb: it's a good reminder that there are places that are not here. That there are people, as you said, that are experiencing a different kind of suffering and your rights. Of course, if we're to be the kind of people that even ourselves are taking on our lips that we want to follow our Lord Jesus Christ, then the example that he gives for us is to think about, to identify with. To come alongside in prayer for those that are suffering. I think also for prayer for Christians in those communities to be strong and to exemplify the love of Christ in ways that they can. And so of course, I immediately go to Isaiah 53, and that's also about really the ubiquity of suffering in our world, but this massive desire on the part of God in an unreserved way to identify with that kind of suffering. So in verse four, the famous verses, surely our griefs, he himself bore what? A statement, right? Yeah. Like the grief that we're talking about now, that we're not alone. The grief of those who in the midst of this kind of traumatic, uh, sorrow and our sorrows, he carried. We ourselves steamed him, stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. But he was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastising for our peace fell upon him, and by his wounds, we are healed. All of us, like sheep have gone astray. Each of us has turned to his own way, but Yahweh has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him. And who doesn't have iniquity? All of us do. So this reminder that we serve a God who can parse out and understand the suffering the best, who is both just and justifier, and what is left to us then is to submit to him, to worship him, to pray that in that great grief, that our world experiences, that he himself would draw close as he has already promised to do, and that his spirit would come with both comforts and conviction to bring all his children onto himself, even in difficult situations like this. [00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah. [00:09:25] Affirmations and Denials Continued [00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Well, on that note, Jesse, are you affirming or denying something? There's no good transition there. [00:09:30] Jesse Schwamb: No, it, it's heavy. I hear you. And the problem is partly in our culture right now is you can't, I understand your all, all, both of our desires right now to be measured in what we say because maybe we have opinions, maybe we don't. But the bottom line is I'm not sure that opinions even help that much in this type of situation because the complexities involved here. And all I think that's left to say is just that it's hard. And I wish there was more I could do. I, I wish this kind of thing wasn't happening. And I, I understand too. I'm not naive enough to think that's not just happening here, but all over the world, these kind of things take place at any given day. And if, if we are so fortunate not to have to contend with them, then we are just very fortunate and we all take that as blessing. It doesn't mean that we don't have a responsibility to pray and to, I think in some ways try to identify with that suffering if only through our prayers, reminding ourselves that, like you said, we all need to save, we all do. All of us, you and me and all those involved in this, it's absolutely necessary. It's part of what we're talking about tonight, right? We're saying like, Lord God as father, come. Come in your mercy, come quickly, come and heal. Come and restore. Come and make right. Come and judge, come in comfort. That's what we're asking the father to do. So it's, it's heavy, but we need those kind of affirmations and denials from time to time. So I, [00:10:43] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: I appreciate you being willing to bring that into the chat. [00:10:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:10:49] Jesse Schwamb: You want my affirmation into Yeah. [00:10:51] Tony Arsenal: I feel like I can't, I, I mean, I'll be honest, like I, I think people might be surprised at my overall perspective on this. And again, I'm not gonna get into it here, and, and I really am being honest when I say, like, if you wanna reach out to me privately, I'm, I'm not shy about my perspective on this. I'm happy to share it, but I think it's just heavy. And I felt the same way about this during the George Floyd riots. You know, like I grew up in Minneapolis and. It's been a long time since I've been super familiar with Minneapolis, but, and I, like, I grew up on, on the east side of the cities, which is the St. Paul side. So even, even saying I grew up in Minneapolis is not super accurate, but there are times when I look at the news coverage and I can see I, I recognize the landmarks, I recognize, um, the street layout, and I go, I know what street that is. And there's something, there's something heavier about watching this kind of news coverage and this kind of event when this is the place you grew up. And when, when there are people there that you know, that aren't just names, that they're people with a history, that you're part of their history and they're part of your history, right? There's something heavy about that. And I think what's been impressed on me and maybe why I am, why I am reflective on this is. Even if those...
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Self-Righteousness: The Subtle Distance from the Father's Heart
02/02/2026
Self-Righteousness: The Subtle Distance from the Father's Heart
In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse continue their deep dive into the Parable of the Prodigal Son by examining the often-overlooked character of the elder brother. While the younger son's rebellion is obvious, the elder brother's self-righteous moralism represents a more subtle—and perhaps more dangerous—form of lostness. Through careful exegesis of Luke 15:25-32, the hosts explore how religious performance, resentment of grace, and merit-based thinking can keep us far from the Father's heart even while we remain close to the Father's house. This conversation challenges listeners to examine their own hearts for traces of elder brother theology and calls us to celebrate the scandalous grace that restores sinners to sonship. Key Takeaways Two ways to be lost: The parable presents both flagrant rebellion (the younger son) and respectable self-righteousness (the elder son) as forms of spiritual lostness that require God's grace. The elder brother's geographic and spiritual position: Though physically near the house and faithful in service, the elder brother was spiritually distant from the father's heart, unable to celebrate grace extended to others. Moralism as a subtle distance: Self-righteous religion can be more deceptive than open rebellion because it appears virtuous while actually rejecting the father's character and values. The father pursues both sons: God's gracious pursuit extends not only to the openly rebellious but also to the self-righteous, demonstrating that election and grace are sovereign gifts, not earned rewards. The unresolved ending: The parable intentionally leaves the elder brother's response unstated, creating narrative tension that challenges the original audience (Pharisees and scribes) and modern readers to examine their own response to grace. Adoption as the frame of obedience: True Christian obedience flows from sonship and inheritance ("all that I have is yours"), not from a wage-earning, transactional relationship with God. Resentment reveals our theology: When we find ourselves unable to celebrate the restoration of repentant sinners, we expose our own need for repentance—not from scandal, but from envy and pride. Key Concepts The Elder Brother's Subtle Lostness The genius of Jesus' parable is that it exposes a form of lostness that religious people rarely recognize in themselves. The elder brother never left home, never squandered his inheritance, and never violated explicit commands. Yet his response to his brother's restoration reveals a heart fundamentally opposed to the father's character. His complaint—"I have served you all these years and never disobeyed your command"—demonstrates that he viewed his relationship with the father transactionally, as an employer-employee arrangement rather than a father-son bond. This is the essence of legalism: performing religious duties while remaining distant from God's heart. The tragedy is that the elder brother stood within reach of everything the father had to offer yet experienced none of the joy, fellowship, or security of sonship. This form of lostness is particularly dangerous because it wears the mask of righteousness and often goes undetected until grace is extended to someone we deem less deserving. The Father's Gracious Pursuit of the Self-Righteous Just as the father ran to meet the returning younger son, he also went out to plead with the elder brother to come into the feast. This detail is theologically significant: God pursues both the openly rebellious and the self-righteous with the same gracious initiative. The father's response to the elder brother's complaint is not harsh correction but tender invitation: "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours." This reveals that the problem was never scarcity or the father's favoritism—the elder brother had always possessed full access to the father's resources and affection. The barrier was entirely on the son's side: his inability to receive sonship as a gift rather than a wage. This mirrors the historical situation of the Pharisees and scribes who grumbled at Jesus for receiving sinners. They stood adjacent to the kingdom, surrounded by the promises and covenant blessings of God, yet remained outside because they could not accept grace as the principle of God's dealing with humanity. The invitation still stood, but it required them to abandon their merit-based system and enter the feast as recipients of unearned favor. The Unresolved Ending and Its Challenge to Us Luke deliberately leaves the parable unfinished—we never learn whether the elder brother eventually joined the celebration. This narrative technique places the reader in the position of the elder brother, forcing us to answer for ourselves: will we enter the feast or remain outside in bitter resentment? For the original audience of Pharisees and scribes, this unresolved ending was a direct challenge to their response to Jesus' ministry. Would they continue to grumble at God's grace toward tax collectors and sinners, or would they recognize their own need and join the celebration? For contemporary readers, the question remains equally pressing. When we hear of a notorious sinner coming to faith, do we genuinely rejoice, or do we scrutinize their repentance with suspicion? When churches extend membership to those with broken pasts, do we celebrate restoration or quietly question whether they deserve a place at the table? The parable's open ending is not a literary flaw but a pastoral strategy: it refuses to let us remain passive observers and demands that we examine whether we harbor elder brother theology in our own hearts. Memorable Quotes The father's household is a place where grace produces joy, not just merely relief. The elder brother hears the joy before he sees it. That's often how resentment works, isn't it? We're alerted to the happiness of others and somehow there's this visceral response of wanting to be resentful toward that joy, toward that unmerited favor. — Jesse Schwamb There is a way to be near the house, church adjacent, religiously active, yet to be really far from the father's heart. The elder brother is not portrayed as an atheist, but as a moralist. And moralism can be a more subtle distance than open rebellion. — Jesse Schwamb God doesn't keep sinners from repenting. The reprobate are not prohibited or prevented by God from coming to faith. They're being kept out by their own stubborn refusal to come in. That's where this punchline hits so hard. — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:00:56] Parables and God's Word [00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words. And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak. So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son. We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God. Spoiler. We can and we'll, [00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome? Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against? [00:02:31] Tony's Nerdy Hobby: Dungeons and Dragons [00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths. [00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I [00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think, [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it. [00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game. The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show. Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game. Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live. So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in. [00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we [00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it. Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks. Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free. Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model. Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders. I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going. So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it. [00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there. Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it. [00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time. Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do. Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity. I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it. If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that. And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like. I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play. But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh, [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow. [00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long. So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it. [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now. Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades? [00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story. Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right. And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right? Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple campaigns, so there's a lot to it. Game's been going on for like 50, 60, 70 years, something like that. I don't remember exactly when it started, but [00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: yeah. [00:10:41] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's an old game. It's kinda like the doctor who of of poor games and it's like the original tabletop role playing game, I think. [00:10:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, there's something really appealing to me about not just that cooperative storytelling, but cooperative gameplay. Everybody's kind of in it together for the most part. Yeah. Those conquest, as I understand them, are joint in nature. You build solidarity, but if you're meeting with people and having fun together and telling stories and interacting with one another, there's a lot of good that comes out of that stuff there. A lot of lovely common grace in those kind of building, those long-term interactions, relationships, entertainment built on being together and having good, clean, fun together. [00:11:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's, um. It's an interesting exercise. It's it, in some ways it's very much like improv. Like you, you think of like an improv comedy like show I've been to somewhere. Like, you know, you go to the show and it's an improv troupe, but they're like calling people from the crowd up and asking them for like different scenarios they might do. It's kind of like that in that like the GM can plan a whole, can plan a whole thing. But if I as a player character, um. And I've done this to the virtual one just to see what it does, and it's done some interesting things. One of the campaigns I was playing, I had rescued a merchant from some giant spiders and I was helping, like, I was helping like navigate them through the woods to the next town. And we kept on getting attacked and just outta...
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The Parable of the Lost Son: A Portrait of Regeneration and Repentance
01/23/2026
The Parable of the Lost Son: A Portrait of Regeneration and Repentance
What happens when a son demands his father's life essence, squanders it in a far country, and returns expecting servanthood? In this theologically rich episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conduct a detailed exegetical study of Luke 15:11-24, revealing how the Parable of the Lost Son illustrates the core doctrines of regeneration, repentance, and double imputation. Through careful attention to the Greek text and systematic theology, the hosts demonstrate how this familiar parable captures the entire ordo salutis—the order of salvation. From the son's rebellion and spiritual death to his miraculous "coming to himself" and the father's extravagant restoration, this episode unpacks the gospel embedded in one of Scripture's most beloved stories, showing how God's mercy isn't reluctant but runs to meet repentant sinners. Key Takeaways The Son's Demand Reveals the Essence of Idolatry - When the younger son asks for his inheritance, he's not just requesting property but demanding his father's very life essence (Greek: ousia and bios), demonstrating how sin is fundamentally about wanting God's gifts without God Himself. Providence Exposes What Sin Conceals - The famine that strikes only in the far country reveals a theological pattern: hardship is not merely punishment but God's mercy waking us to the emptiness of life apart from Him. "Coming to Himself" Pictures Regeneration - The son's sudden realization about his father's goodness isn't the result of logical reasoning but represents the supernatural work of regeneration—coming to spiritual life and self-awareness under God. The Son's Planned Speech Reveals Works-Righteousness - The son's intention to ask for servanthood rather than sonship mirrors how many approach God, seeking to earn their standing through labor rather than trusting in grace alone. The Father's Response Demonstrates Double Imputation - By restoring the son not just to his former position but elevating him with robe, ring, and sandals, the father illustrates the gospel: our sins are removed and Christ's righteousness is credited to us. The Depths of Depravity Are Pictured in the Pig Pods - The "pods" (Greek: related to keratin) that the son desires are not edible vegetation but bone-like material, illustrating humanity's complete spiritual destitution apart from God. This Parable Contains a Complete Systematic Theology of Salvation - Luke 15:11-24 presents regeneration, repentance, faith (knowledge, assent, and trust), justification, and adoption in narrative form, making it one of Scripture's most comprehensive soteriological lessons. Key Concepts The Essence of Idolatry: Demanding God's Gifts Without God The Greek words used in this parable are theologically significant. When the son asks for "the share of property," Luke uses ousia (verse 12)—a word meaning "essence" or "being," familiar to students of Trinitarian theology. Later, the text says the father divided his bios (life) between them. As Tony Arsenal notes, these aren't the ordinary Greek words for material possessions. This linguistic choice reveals that the son isn't just asking for money—he's demanding his father's very life essence while rejecting the father himself. This captures the core nature of sin and idolatry: we want God's blessings, provisions, and gifts while spurning relationship with Him. We desire heaven's benefits without heaven's God. We want meaning, purpose, love, and satisfaction—all gifts that flow from the Father—but we want them on our terms, in our timing, apart from submission to His lordship. The parable's opening immediately confronts us with the audacity of our own hearts, which daily make the same demand: "Give me what I want, and then leave me alone." Every act of sin is fundamentally this request: the demand for God's good gifts while rejecting the Giver. Providence Exposes What Sin Conceals: The Mercy of Hardship Verse 14 marks a turning point: "When he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished." Jesse Schwamb's observation is crucial: "Providence exposes what sin conceals." The famine doesn't occur everywhere—only in the far country where the son has fled. This isn't random; it's part of the parable's theological architecture. Sin promises freedom, pleasure, and satisfaction, but these promises are lies that only hardship exposes. The son believed his father's house was restrictive and that true life existed elsewhere. Only when famine struck did the deception become clear. God often uses difficulty not as mere punishment but as mercy—a severe mercy that strips away sin's facade and reveals its bankruptcy. The son needed to hit bottom, to desire even the inedible pods fed to pigs, before he could "come to himself." This pattern appears throughout Scripture and Christian experience. God allows us to taste the bitter fruit of our choices, not because He delights in our suffering, but because He loves us too much to leave us comfortable in our delusions. Hardship becomes the catalyst for repentance, the circumstance that makes us reconsider what we've rejected. As C.S. Lewis wrote, "Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world." The famine was God's megaphone to this lost son. The Father's Response: Double Imputation in Narrative Form When the father sees his son returning, he doesn't wait for the full confession. He doesn't require a probationary period of servanthood. He doesn't negotiate terms. Instead, he runs—a shocking image in ancient Middle Eastern culture where patriarchs maintained dignity—and embraces his son before any words are spoken. Then come the symbols: the best robe, a ring, and sandals. These aren't random acts of generosity; they're covenant symbols of restored sonship and, remarkably, symbols of the firstborn's inheritance. The second-born son, who was entitled to one-third of the estate (which he'd already squandered), is now given the symbols that mark him as having the firstborn's two-thirds inheritance. He's elevated beyond his original position. This is the gospel of double imputation in parable form. In justification, God doesn't merely forgive our sins (removing our debt); He credits us with Christ's perfect righteousness (giving us Christ's inheritance). We don't return to spiritual neutrality; we're adopted as sons and daughters, made co-heirs with Christ, given "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:3). The father's response to the lost son illustrates what Paul teaches in Romans 5:1-2: we have not just peace with God but access into grace and the hope of glory. We're not merely forgiven servants—we're beloved children clothed in our Elder Brother's righteousness, welcomed into the family feast. Memorable Quotes This son felt it was owed to him. Haven't we all done this to God? We take what we've been given by God, our very life, our very essence, we owe him everything, and we squander that on sinful, reckless living. That's just a slap in the face in the best way right out of the gate here. - Tony Arsenal He comes to himself. There's nothing in the story that should prompt him to want to go back to his home, to think that his father could or would do anything about it, except that he comes to himself. He just comes to the realization that his father is a good man and is wise and has resources. That is a picture of regeneration. - Tony Arsenal God's mercy is not reluctant. God's mercy comes in hot. The embrace comes faster than the son's repair attempts. That's exactly how God treats us. He delights to bring that mercy to his children when they come before him in repentance day after day after day. Thank goodness his mercies are new every day. - Jesse Schwamb Full Episode Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: When he comes back, he's given all the symbols to say he's now guaranteed to have the two thirds. So he comes back to this position, where the father elevates him above his previous station That is the gospel of Jesus Christ that's double imputation baked into the pie. It's not just that. He goes, well. you spent all this stuff, but I guess we can overlook that. That would be more akin to come back. start at zero, Zero is a servant in my house. work your way back up if you can. [00:00:44] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 477 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:51] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:55] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:00:56] Parables and God's Word [00:00:56] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, it struck me that this whole thing we've been doing all this parable talk is really after the manner of God's words. And one of the things I've really grown to appreciate is how God speaks to the condition of those whom he addresses. He considers our ability, our capacity as his hearers to process what he's saying, and that leads into these amazing parables that we've been talking about. He doesn't speak as he is able to speak. So to speak, but I didn't mean that to happen. But as we were able to hear, and that means he spoke in these lovely parables so that we might better understand him. And today we're gonna get into some of the drama of the best, like the crown jewel as we've been saying, of maybe all the parables. The Parable of the Lost Son. We spoke a little bit about it in the last episode. Definitely want to hit that up because it's setting you up for this one, which is the definitive episode. But now we're gonna talk about this first, this younger lost son. Get into some of all of these like juicy details about what takes place, and really, again, see if we can find the heart of God. Spoiler. We can and we'll, [00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: yeah, [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:04] Jesse Schwamb: but before we do both of those things, it's of course always time at this moment to do a little affirming with or denying against. Of course, if you haven't heard us before, that's where we take a moment to say, is there something that we think is undervalued that we wanna bring forward that we'd recommend or think is awesome? Or conversely, is there something that's overvalued that's just, we're over it. The vibe is done. We're gonna deny against that. So I say to you, as I often do, Tony, are you affirming with or deny against? [00:02:31] Tony's Nerdy Hobby: Dungeons and Dragons [00:02:31] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming tonight. Um, I don't know how much the audience realizes of a giant ridiculous nerd I am, but we're about to go to entirely new giant nerd depths. [00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: All right. I [00:02:43] Tony Arsenal: think, [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: let's hear it. [00:02:44] Tony Arsenal: So, um, I was a huge fan of Stranger Things. Some, there's some issues with the show, and I understand why some people might not, um, might not feel great about watching it. You know, I think it falls within Christian liberty. But one of the main themes of the show, this is not a spoiler, you learn about this in episode one, is the whole game. The whole show frames itself around Dungeons and Dragons, right? It's kind of like a storytelling device within the show that the kids play, Dungeons and Dragons, and everything that happens in the Dungeons and Dragons game that they're playing, sort of like, um, foreshadows what's actually gonna happen in the show. Which funny if, you know Dungeons and Dragons lore, you kind of learn the entire plot of the story like ahead of time. Um, but so I, stranger Things just finished up and I've kind of been like itching to get into Dungeons and Dragons. I used to play a little bit of tabletop when I was in high school, in early college and um, I just really like the idea of sort of this collaborative storytelling game. Um, whether it's Dungeon Dragons or one of the other systems, um, Dungeons and Dragons is the most popular. It's the most well published. It's the most well established and it's probably the easiest to find a group to play with. Although it is very hard to find a group to play with, especially, uh, kind of out in the middle of nowhere where I live. So this is where the ultra super nerdy part comes in. [00:04:02] Jesse Schwamb: Alright, here we [00:04:03] Tony Arsenal: go. I have been painstakingly over the last week teaching Google Gemini. To be a dungeon master for me. So I've been playing Dungeons and Dragons more or less by myself with, uh, with Google Gemini, and I'm just having a lot of fun with it. Um, you can get a free copy of the rules online if you, I think it's DND, the letter NDND beyond.com. They have a full suite of like tools to create your character. Access to a basic set of the core rules. Um, you can spend a lot of money on Dungeons and Dragons, uh, and if you want to like really get into it, the books are basically textbooks. Like you're buying $300 or 300 page, $300, 300 page textbooks, um, that are not all that differently costs than like college textbooks. You'll buy a 300 page Dungeon master guide that's like $50 if you want a paper copy. So, but you can get into it for free. You can get the free rolls online, you can use their dungeon, the d and d Beyond app and do all your dice rolls for free. Um, you, you can get a free dice roller online if you don't want to do their, their app. Um, but it's just a lot of fun. I've just been having a lot of fun and I found that the, I mean. When you play a couple sessions with it, you see that the, the um, the A IDM that I've created, like it follows the same story beats 'cause it's only got so much to work with in its language model. Um, but I'm finding ways to sort of like break it out of that model by forcing it to refer to certain websites that are like Dungeons and Dragons lore websites and things like build your, build your campaign from this repository of Dungeons and Dragons stuff. So. I think you could do this with just about any sort of narrative storytelling game like this, whether you're playing a different system or d and d Pathfinders. I mean, there's all sorts of different versions of it, but it's just been a lot of fun to see, see it going. I'm trying to get a group together. 'cause I think I would, I would probably rather play Dungeons and Dragons with people, um, and rather do it in person. But it's hard to do up here. It's hard to get a, get a group going. So that's my super nerdy affirmation. I'm not just affirming Dungeons and Dragons, which would already be super nerdy. I'm affirming playing it by myself on my phone, on the bus with Google Gemini, AI acting like I'm not. Just this weird antisocial lunatic. So I'm having a lot of fun with it. [00:06:20] Jesse Schwamb: So there are so many levels of inception there. Yeah. Like the inception and everything you just said. I love it. [00:06:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, what I'm learning is, um, you can give an, and, and this is something I didn't realize, what ai, I guess I probably should have, you know, it's not like an infinite thing. Um, you can give an AI instructions and if your chat gets long enough, it actually isn't referring back to the very beginning of the chat most of the time. Right. There's a, there's like a win context window of about 30 responses. So like if you tell the AI, don't roll the dice for me, like, let me roll dices that are related to my actions, eventually it will forget that. So part of what I've been doing is basically building, I'm using Google Gemini when the AI does something I don't want it to do, I say, you just did something I don't want it to do. Gimme a diagnostic report of why you did that. It will explain to me why it did what it did. Right. Why it didn't observe the rules. And then I'm feeding that into another. Prompt that is helping me generate better prompts that it refers back to. So it's kind of this weird iterative, um, yeah, I, I don't, I'm like, I maybe I'm gonna create the singularity. I'm not sure. Maybe this is gonna be possible. We should sit over the edge. It's gonna, it's gonna learn how to cast magic spells and it's gonna fire bolt us in the face or something like that. Right. But, uh, again, high risk. I, I, for one, welcome our AO AI dungeon masters. So check it out. You should try it. If you could do this with chat GPT, you could do it with any ai. Um, it, it, it is going to get a little, I have the benefit because I have a Google Workspace account. I have access to Google Pro or the Gemini Pro, which is a better model for this kind of thing. But you could do this with, with chat GPT or something like that. And it's gonna be more or less the same experience, I think. But I'm having a, I'm having a ton of fun with it. Um. Again, I, I, there's something about just this, Dungeons and Dragons at its core is a, it's like a, an exercise in joint storytelling, which is really fascinating and interesting to me. Um, and that's what most tabletop RPGs are like. I suppose you get into something like War Hammer and it's a little bit more like a board. It's a mixture of that plus a board game. But Dungeons and Dragons, the DM is creating the, I mean, not the entire world, but is creating the narrative. And then you as a player are an actor within that narrative. And then there's a certain element of chance that dice rolls play. But for the most part, um, you're driving the story along. You're telling the story together. So it's, it's pretty interesting. I've also been watching live recordings of Dungeons and Dragon Sessions on YouTube. Oh, [00:08:50] Jesse Schwamb: wow. [00:08:51] Tony Arsenal: Like, there's a, there's a channel called Critical Role. Like these sessions are like three and a half hours long. So, wow. I just kinda have 'em on in the background when I'm, when I'm, uh, working or if I'm, you know, doing something else. Um, but it's really interesting stuff. It's, it's pretty cool. I think it's fun. I'm a super nerd. I'm, I'm no shame in that. Um, I'm just really enjoying it. [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, nerdery is great. That's like part of the zeitgeist now. Listen to culture. It's cool to be a nerd. I don't know much about d and d. I've heard a lot about this idea of this community that forms around. Yeah. The story, correct me if I'm wrong, can't these things go on for like years, decades? [00:09:25] Tony Arsenal: Oh yeah, yeah. Like, you can do there. There, some of this has made its way into the official rule books, but basically you could do what's called a one shot, which is like a self-contained story. Usually a single session, you know, like you get a Dungeon master, game master, whichever you wanna call the person. Three to four, maybe five characters, player characters. And one session is usually about two hours long. So it's not like you sit down for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time and play this right. And you could do a one shot, which is a story that's designed to, to live all within that two hour session. Um, some people will do it where there isn't really any planned like, outcome of the story. The, the DM just kind of makes up things to do as they go. And then you can have campaigns, which is like, sometimes it's like a series of one shots, but more, it is more like a long term serialized period, you know, serialized campaign where you're doing many, um, many, many kinds of, uh, things all in one driving to like a big epic goal or battle at the end, right? Um, some groups stay together for a really long time and they might do multiple...
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The Parable of the Lost Son: The Father's Grace as Central Message
01/16/2026
The Parable of the Lost Son: The Father's Grace as Central Message
What if the most famous parable in Scripture isn't primarily about the prodigal son at all? In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin an in-depth exploration of Luke 15:11-32, arguing that this beloved parable is fundamentally about the Father's lavish, shocking grace rather than the son's waywardness. The hosts unpack how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's character as one who not only forgives repentant sinners but elevates them to the status of beloved children and heirs—a grace so radical it scandalizes our human sensibilities. They also examine the often-overlooked older brother as a picture of "gospel complainers" who struggle to rejoice in God's mercy. This episode sets the foundation for a multi-part series that promises to reveal new depths in one of the Bible's most profound stories. Key Takeaways The parable's central focus is the Father, not the sons. While commonly called "The Parable of the Prodigal Son," the story's main point is to reveal the gracious, generous character of God who eagerly forgives and restores sinners. God's salvation elevates us beyond mere forgiveness. The returning son isn't simply pardoned—he's clothed in the best robe, given a ring, and celebrated with a feast. Similarly, salvation doesn't just remove our guilt; it grants us adoption as God's children and heirs. The parable addresses both repentant sinners and "gospel complainers." The younger son represents those who have come to themselves and returned to the Father, while the older brother represents those who resent God's grace toward the undeserving. Christian salvation is unique among world religions. Unlike other religious systems that offer moral improvement or merger with the divine, Christianity offers actual adoption into God's family—a relationship of love and inheritance. The scandal of grace should shock us. The father's response to the returning son is deliberately shocking and countercultural, revealing a love so lavish it transcends human logic and fairness. Repentance involves recognizing the Father's gracious disposition. The son "came to himself" not merely by acknowledging his foolishness, but by remembering his father's character and trusting in his mercy. This parable contains multiple theological lessons. Rather than having a single point, this rich story teaches us about God's nature, the process of repentance, the reality of regeneration, the joy of restoration, and the danger of self-righteousness. Key Concepts The Father as the True Center of the Parable Throughout church history, interpreters have often focused on the journey of the younger son—his rebellion, his descent into poverty, his moment of realization, and his return home. However, Tony and Jesse argue compellingly that this emphasis misses the parable's primary purpose. Jesus tells this story in response to the Pharisees' complaint that he welcomes sinners and eats with them. The parable's answer isn't primarily about how sinners should behave, but about who God is—a Father who runs to meet returning sinners, who interrupts their prepared speeches of repentance with immediate restoration, who celebrates extravagantly rather than reluctantly. Every detail—the best robe, the ring, the fatted calf, the music and dancing—points to a God whose grace overflows beyond what we could ask or imagine. When we shift our focus from the son's unworthiness to the Father's overwhelming generosity, the gospel comes into sharper focus. Salvation as Elevation, Not Mere Restoration One of the most striking insights in this episode is the observation that the younger son returns expecting at best to be treated as a hired servant, but instead receives treatment that appears to elevate him even beyond his original status as a son. The father doesn't simply restore him to his previous position; he clothes him in the best robe, places a ring on his finger (a symbol of authority), puts shoes on his feet (distinguishing him from barefoot servants), and throws a celebration with the fatted calf (reserved for the most special occasions). This, Tony and Jesse argue, is a picture of what God's salvation accomplishes. We don't simply receive forgiveness that neutralizes our debt; we receive adoption that makes us heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. First John 1:9 doesn't merely promise forgiveness of sins, but cleansing from all unrighteousness—the removal of our guilt and the imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is the scandal of the gospel: God doesn't merely pardon rebels; he makes them sons and daughters. The Older Brother and the Danger of Gospel Complaining The parable's second half introduces the older brother, whose response to his father's grace reveals a different kind of lostness. His complaint seems, on the surface, entirely reasonable: he has been faithful and obedient, yet never received such celebration, while his wasteful brother returns and is honored. Yet his anger reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of grace. He sees his relationship with the father in transactional terms—work deserves reward, and his brother's work deserves punishment. He cannot rejoice in mercy shown to another because he doesn't recognize his own need for mercy. The hosts connect this to the Pharisees who complained about Jesus welcoming sinners, and to the persistent temptation among believers to resent God's grace toward those we deem less deserving. The older brother's position outside the celebration—in the "outer darkness" of the parable—serves as a sobering warning about the possibility of being near to the Father's house while remaining far from the Father's heart. Memorable Quotes This parable has something to tell us about the nature of the Father, the nature of God as the gracious God who is eager and ready to forgive his people, to forgive his son. It tells us about people who have come to faith, who have been regenerated, who have come to ourselves and have recognized the nature of the Father and recognized the gracious disposition of the Father. — Tony Arsenal No human mind could invent or conceive of the gospel... You could give people all the time in the world to write some kind of amazing, try to come up with some kind of story, some kind of redemption narrative that would be this good, and we wouldn't be able to do it because it is just so far away from how our minds think. — Jesse Schwamb He could have redeemed us from destruction and brought us out of that, but he's chosen not only to redeem us from destruction, to protect us from destruction and to bring us out of that, but he's chosen to make us his children, to adopt us as his heirs, as his inheritors. — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:48] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 476. Of the Reformed Brotherhood, I'm Jesse. [00:00:55] Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that Tony is actually on. Hey brother. [00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. [00:01:03] Tony Arsenal: lives, I'm alive. Yes. It's, [00:01:07] Jesse Schwamb: As, as I said, the rumors of your demise were greatly exaggerated and here you are. [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: just barely. Yeah. I mean, the words your brother who was once lost has now been found, have double meaning on this episode. [00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. You're leading us right into this topic, which we've teased and teased and teased to extreme lengths, but finally, brothers and sisters, I think today on this episode we're gonna talk a little bit about the Parable of the Lost Son. After all of that, I think it was good buildup, but it's time. [00:01:40] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And it's worth the buildup. This is one of the, uh, one of the like, big daddy parables. I mean, all the parables are profitable and useful, of course. But, uh, as far as like the, the, the major parables, this is, I don't know if this is probably the most major parable or the, it's certainly the most famous. It's right up there with the Good Samaritan. So I'm, I'm stoked. I've been like wrestling and chewing on this parable for like a month now. [00:02:07] Jesse Schwamb: I know. How about it? We're finally here. There's so much to talk about. I don't wanna bury the lead. We're gonna get there. It, there's just. There's so much ex escalation, like so much evolution, evolution, evolution and escalation of this idea of like, it's three parables in one and really it's one parable in three parts, and we're, you're going from the sheep to the coin to a person now, and then there's this like, you can complain about the gospel. All that's happening within this, I mean, there's, we could just do a, a podcast or an episode of the podcast. You could do a whole podcast just on the setup, but we're not gonna do that. [00:02:43] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:43] Jesse Schwamb: Well, we'll probably do part of that, but the other thing I'm sure that people have missed are affirmations, denials. And they're back. It's 2026. We've got 'em. You want 'em? So as I've been want to do, Tony, my brother, are you affirming with, are you denying against. [00:02:58] Book Review: Strength of the Few [00:02:58] Tony Arsenal: I am going to affirm this is a very recent popcorn, coconut oil affirmation. Uh, both of us have been reading, um, James Linton's newest entry in the hierarchy [00:03:10] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that's right. [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: and both of us have now finished it. And I do have to [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yep. [00:03:14] Tony Arsenal: um. The book was better than I thought it was gonna be, and I had pretty high expectations going into it. so if you haven't had a chance to check out the hierarchy, I know it, I think it's either gonna be a trilogy or a Quad trilogy. I've read that there's a plan for three books, maybe four books. Um, if you haven't checked it out despite our several recommendations, please do. It was. It was amazing book and kept you confused in all the right ways until, until suddenly you weren't so confused, which was like a really, it was like the opposite feeling as the first book, which was you thought you knew what was going on the entire time, and then all of a sudden it was just a totally different situation. This I. I kind of felt like I sort of understood what was going on. And then in maybe like the last, I don't know, five pages, everything got upended again. Um, so yeah, it, it was very good. Uh, it's eminently appropriate. Um, there's no sex. There's. Sort of veiled swearing, but it's, it's sort of like fantasy world. Different words, swearing. Um, it can be a little bit, um, violent at some points, but he does a good job of not making it overly graphic. Um, and there are some graphic things that happen, but he does a good job of not describing them overly graphically. So, um, I don't know that I would like read it to your kids at bedtime, but it's a. It's a good book and it's worth, it's, it's a little bit of a slog. I mean, it was a long book, but it's worth the [00:04:45] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:04:46] Tony Arsenal: you put into it. Um, I don't know when the next book's gonna come out. Probably a year and a half, maybe two years. Um, seems to be the pace. So you got time to go back and read Will of the Mini, which is the first one, uh, strength of the Few, which is the second one. And the forthcoming volume I've heard is called the Justice of One. I don't [00:05:04] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. [00:05:04] Tony Arsenal: if there's a fourth volume, what it's gonna be called. Um, but yeah, check it out. It was super good. It was super, super satisfying. Um, it was shocking in all the right ways. Surprising in all the right ways, but also sort of predictable in some of the right ways. There were some things that happened that. Felt right, and like they're expected and they should have happened, and then they did happen. Um, I I, I get really frustrated with books when you really feel like it's supposed to go some way and then it just doesn't, like something fits and it doesn't happen. So yeah. Strength of the Few by James Islington. I'm gonna try to pick up his other trilogy, I think it's called the Lactus Trilogy, um, just to get a feel for it. And I've heard rumors that, uh, James Islington is actually a reformed Christian, so we are gonna try to hunt him down if anyone happens to have contact information for James is LinkedIn please. Uh, please send it my way 'cause I would love to book him for the show and see if we could get him, uh, get him visiting. [00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: We got 20, 26 goals. We got those squad goals. Actually, what's a really good way for people to get you? Let's say somebody has the contact information, they're listening and they're saying, we. I do with this hot little ticket that's in my hands. How could they get that information to us in a really fun way? [00:06:17] Engaging with the Audience [00:06:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, we have a Telegram channel. Telegram is just this little messaging app. Uh, you just go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood. Uh, you can use it on any browser or any mobile device. You can access Telegram. If you go to your browser and point it to t me slash Reform Brotherhood, it will take you either to download the app or if you already have the app, it'll jump you straight into the, uh, into the conversation. Uh, there's several different channels or a little. Categories in there. Um, you know, anything from memes to, um, like a book reading club to prayer requests, um, there's a lot going on in there and it really is just a friendly place. There's about a hundred people in there, so it's not gonna blow up your phone all the time. Um, but if you have a question or you want to chat things or you happen to have James Linton's email address and you wanna share it with me, that is the place to do it. t.me/reform brotherhood. [00:07:08] Jesse Schwamb: This is a great book. Like you said, the storytelling is epic's. Super fun. It keeps you guessing. In fact, you almost can't even guess at certain points. You've just gotta come along for the ride. And one of the things I also appreciate about James Islington is he's pretty responsive. So he has a website and he posts regular updates. So I'm looking at an update that was dated December 2nd. He talks about the justice of one. He says he's got it up to 150,000 words in draft form, but he also is saying that he's going to release like a shorter sci-fi novel this year. So that man is just cranking books. [00:07:40] Tony Arsenal: He [00:07:40] Jesse Schwamb: He's just out there crushing it. [00:07:43] Tony Arsenal: of [00:07:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's, you just stole that. That's exactly what I was gonna say. He's the Sin Sinclair Ferguson of fantasy authorship. So he's doing his thing. But I love that he keeps touch kind of with his readership and he provides these little tidbits to just say like, I'm out here and I'm work. 'cause isn't there you, you and I have talked about this before. There's almost nothing less satisfying than a really good series that you either start reading or you think is gonna be complete and at some point like it drops off and you have no idea what happened to the author. It's, it's hard. I mean, it's a small thing in the world of course, but there's nothing more satisfying than knowing that you're gonna get this whole series. And I kind of like the breaks in between 'cause it allows you to kind of track and digest. And I've already like looked up videos. Maybe you've done the same thing, reading all this stuff about people's theories about what's going on. 'cause it's that good that like you wanna get. Other people together and talk about, it's that kind of book. [00:08:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And, and Jesse and I have swapped theories about what's going to happen. I think we more or less independently came up with basically [00:08:44] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:08:44] Tony Arsenal: theory. Um, [00:08:45] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:08:46] Tony Arsenal: sure some of the nuances are different, but I would love it if, if, uh, someone in our telegram chat or other people have read, read this book. To hear what your thoughts are about what's gonna happen in the next book and what the kind of the next resolutions. I can't even, like, there's no way I can even tilt my hand about what my theory might be without spoiling like all of the best surprises in the whole book. So I think that's enough. Uh, fanboying over strength of the few. For now, for now. Um, but do check it out. Strength of the few. James Islington. Um, I got it on Kindle. It was, it was easy enough to read on a eReader. Sometimes books aren't formatted well for eBooks. This, the formatting's good. The, the pacing is good. Um, just check it out. You, you won't be sorry. Probably if, if you like science fiction, fantasy kind of books, you won't be sorry that you invested the time in this. [00:09:39] Jesse Schwamb: Agreed. Yeah. Good. That is a good strong starting affirmation. [00:09:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight? [00:09:46] Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna do an affirmation as well, and I'm just gonna fan boy with two authors and I'm coming in 'cause you, you actually asked me about this for some opinion on it and I'm willing to give some, even though it's too early in the year, I suppose, but I. I have really grown to appreciate some really good quote unquote devotional reads. You know, something that gives you a little bit to process and digest every day. And I was gifted walking in Faith 365 days with John Calvin, which is edited by Joel Beaky. So you got a powerhouse there, and it turns out. Not shockingly, it's good and I'm just loving, again, the ability to have like snippets of really good writing that don't overwhelm you in the volume so you can really slow down and chew on them a bit. And additionally, one of the things I really like about this particular volume is that it's in. Technical order, so it moves you through the scriptures as if like you were perhaps just reading through one book of the Bible and it's taking these like little pieces and snippets along the way. So of course it's in Genesis, we're early in the year as you and I are talking, and so it's just moving you through. I'm just at Jacob and Esau and just drawing out some really lovely distinctions, some theological truths from a little piece of scripture, some commentary on that. Then some kind of additional Bible reading paired along with that for you to take in the process as well. It's just. Good, Joe Bke is great. I mean, what can we say about Calvin? [00:11:08] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:11:09] Jesse Schwamb: So it's really a lovely pairing and he is curated it very nicely. And again, I love that it's kind of moving through the scriptures in a way that's familiar to us, just in terms of the order of the scriptures themselves, at least that they've been ordered for us. So if you're looking for something, it's not too late. I mean, I suppose you could just pick this up and do it whenever you wanted, but still early in the year. So I don't know. Wherever books are sold, I'm sure you can find it. Walking in faith. 3, 6, 5 days with John Calvin, who doesn't wanna spend that much time with John Calvin. Everybody does. So go well. Most everybody does. Go. Go and check it out. [00:11:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I think that curation aspect is really important because anyone, I mean, and people should and do this and it's fine and, and edifying, like you can, you can pick up a like year through the...
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Sin's Presence vs. Sin's Power: The Christian's True Freedom
01/09/2026
Sin's Presence vs. Sin's Power: The Christian's True Freedom
What does it mean to be truly free from sin as a Christian? In this compelling New Year's episode, Jesse Schwamb explores John Owen's powerful 17th-century treatise on Romans 6:12, unpacking the crucial distinction between sin's presence and sin's dominion in the believer's life. Drawing from Owen's pastoral wisdom, this episode challenges listeners to examine whether sin merely dwells within them or actively rules over them. Through practical diagnostic questions and theological clarity, Jesse demonstrates how union with Christ breaks sin's reign while acknowledging the ongoing battle believers face. This episode offers both encouragement for the weary and a battle plan for those ready to wage war against remaining corruption through the ordinary means of grace. Key Takeaways Sin's presence versus sin's power: Christians experience sin remaining in them, but it no longer reigns over them—sin is present but dethroned, active but not sovereign. Dominion means rule and mastery: Sin's dominion isn't about occasional temptation or influence, but about who calls the shots, sets direction, and gets obeyed in your life. Resistance proves grace is reigning: The very fact that believers fight against sin demonstrates that sin has lost its dominion—tyrants don't get resisted by loyal subjects. Union with Christ breaks sin's rule: Freedom from sin's dominion comes not through self-improvement or behavioral modification, but through being joined to Christ in His death and resurrection. Grace changes your master, not just your status: The gospel doesn't merely pardon rebels; it transfers them into a new kingdom under a new king with a new governing principle. Diagnostic questions reveal sin's reign: Key indicators include whether you make peace with sin or wage war against it, whether you hide sin to protect it or expose it to kill it, and whether you justify or confess it. Ordinary means sustain the battle: Victory over sin comes through God's appointed channels—the Word, prayer, sacraments, and fellowship—not through spiritual shortcuts or hacks. Key Concepts The Distinction Between Sin's Presence and Sin's Power One of John Owen's most pastoral insights is his careful distinction between sin dwelling in believers versus sin reigning over believers. This isn't mere semantics—it's the difference between a defeated enemy occupying territory and an enemy holding sovereign control. Owen helps us understand that indwelling sin operates like a guerrilla force: active, disruptive, and often humiliating, but critically, no longer sovereign unless we surrender the throne. For believers struggling with recurring temptations or habitual sins, this distinction offers both comfort and challenge. The comfort comes in recognizing that the presence of internal conflict with sin is often evidence that grace has moved in and started an eviction process. The challenge lies in honest self-examination: Are there areas of life where we've made a covenant with sin, carved out corners where sin calls the shots? Owen's pastoral wisdom recognizes that you can have religious habits, theological vocabulary, and church involvement while sin remains the practical king in specific domains of life. How Union with Christ Breaks Sin's Dominion The Reformed doctrine of union with Christ provides the theological foundation for understanding how sin's dominion is actually broken. Owen emphasizes that Christianity is not primarily behavioral modification but entrance into a whole new reality. When believers are joined to Christ in His death and resurrection, that union fundamentally changes everything—not just legal status before God, but actual power dynamics in daily life. This means grace doesn't merely cancel your debt or pardon your rebellion; it changes your master entirely. A new dominion has been installed, a new king now rules, operating by a new principle through the Spirit. This is why Paul's language in Romans 6 isn't just about forgiveness but about transfer of kingdoms. The Christian life isn't a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement—it's warfare under a victorious King who has already raised the flag on the battlefield. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect; you're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. The Ordinary Means of Grace as Weapons in the Battle Owen is allergic to spiritual shortcuts and secret hacks for holiness. Instead, he consistently points believers to what Reformed theology calls the "ordinary means of grace"—those simple, God-appointed channels through which the Spirit works to apply Christ's victory to our daily lives. These include the Word of God (not merely read but received with faith and applied with honesty), prayer (as dependence rather than performance), the sacraments (as visible grace strengthening faith), and fellowship with accountability (because lone sheep Christianity is essentially wolf delivery). The hard truth Owen presses into our modern habits is that a neglected Bible and a prayerless life don't create mysterious seasons of spiritual dryness—they create predictable weakness. Grace reigns in lives where Christ is trusted, and Christ is trusted where Christ is attended to through these ordinary means. Owen would say that the Christian who doesn't pray against temptations they know they'll face is not truly repentant when they pray against them after they've occurred. This isn't legalism but recognition that spiritual warfare requires using the weapons Christ has actually provided. Memorable Quotes The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare, yes, but it's warfare under a victorious King. You're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. When you sin, do you make peace with it or do you make war on it? Do you hide sin to protect it or do you expose sin to kill it? Full Episode Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: as you fight, here's what we need to remember together. The Christian life is not a horror movie where sin is the monster and you're unarmed in the basement. The Christian life is warfare. Yes, but it's warfare under a victorious. King. I mean, Jesus himself is the one raising the flag on the battlefield, calling us out. Take heart, Christian, you're not free because your grip on Christ is perfect. You're free because Christ's grip on you is unbreakable. That I think is how John Owen would summarize. Free from Sins Dominion. Sin still dwells, but no longer rules. Grace doesn't just forgive your rebellion. It overthrows the rebel regime. So I hope that that is in some way a small little treat as advertised for the new year, [00:01:05] Introduction and New Year's Greetings [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse and this is the podcast with the same old truth for a brand new year. Hey, brothers and sisters, happy New Year. It's 2026 and it turns out the Band Smash Mouth was correct when they said the years just keep on coming. And on this episode, we've got a little bit of a New Year's treat for you. But before we do that, let me explain a couple things. Let me bring you into the Reform Brotherhood realm. Give you a little peek behind the curtain because. We've received the questions, we've heard the rumors. What is going on? Where was everybody? And where is Tony? [00:01:47] Where is Tony? [00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Don't worry, I have answers for you. So first, we took a little bit of a hiatus, just a couple of weeks for the holidays at the turn of the year here. And during that time I did in fact see Tony with my own eyes. He does exist. Some have asked, has Jesse taken over the Reform Brotherhood podcast? Is there just one host? Now, is Tony in some kind of theological witness protection program because he's debated too many people online? I'm happy to tell you that Tony is alive and well. He's doing just fine. But as I mentioned previously, his family's been going through all kinds of sickness, particularly his wife, who is my sister. She's had some intractable upper respiratory infection stuff going on, so please pray for her. He's been dutifully taking care of the family and her, and that's just meant that sometimes the podcast has to take a little bit of a backseat, so he is coming back. He is alive and well. In fact, if you still want to interact with him, the best way to do that, as you've heard me say before, is you can actually, believe it or not, hang out with us. In the interweb sphere, and you can do that by going to T Me, lemme say that again. T Me Reform Brotherhood. It's been a while. Loved Ones T Me Reform Brotherhood. And there you'll find a little chat group that takes place in the telegram. Chat. So come hang out. There he is. There he is alive and well. And we'll be back before you know it. And that's why this whole episode is not just a castaway, it's a little bit of a New Year's treat. [00:03:19] New Year's Reflections and Resolutions [00:03:19] Jesse Schwamb: And I say that because I think all of us at this time of year, whether we want to admit it or not, we do think a little bit about the fresh beginning, the new start, and. First, can we just say that what the world looks for in the calendar is what Christ gives to us in the every day? What a blessing that we have a God who gives us mercies, and those mercies are new every day. That's the best of all things, to have something new. And again, I think of Revelation 21, which by the way, when I was with Tony, I just heard my father, who's an amazing pastor, preached so well on Revelation 21. What he called the other side of Christmas. Speaking of this all how new heaven, new Earth, Christ, making all things new. And one of those things that hit me again in that sermon was that Christ is making all things new now. All new things, right? Amen. So that means that we get to be beneficiaries. Of the changing power of Christ, what a joy it is to have fresh beginnings, to have a new start without being made all over again. And so this time of year naturally draws our mind to those things again, some of us make resolutions, some of us don't. Whatever your preference and your priority is, that's fine by me. I think this gives us a chance to be reminded that at the beginning of something new, at the start or turnover of something different, it does orient our minds to thinking. What can I change? What can I process in a new and maybe more prolific or profound way? And so it just so happens that I want to make this New Year's treat for you, dear listener, brother or sister, because I happen to just come across a book that I've just finished reading in this new year. That I think sets us up perfectly with this in mind. [00:04:56] Introducing John Owen's Book [00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: If one of our goals just generally is to be more Christ-like, not for the sake of just emulating Christ per se, but because we see in him all that is elegant and beautiful and righteous and worthy, and so we want to partake in that kind of life and a very, very real way, and it just so happens well. Nothing, just so happens providentially. What happened is that I came across, as I was looking through the stack of unread books, the things that I wanted to read, one just happened to catch my eye, and it was by John Owen. And it's a book about being free from the dominion of sin, and I picked it up thinking, I don't know, I'd read a lot about this idea of what it means to have sin and grace in your life and that this would be another great treatise on how to explore those concepts. But what I found was, I think something so much deeper that was a treat already for me in this new year, and I think that's setting me up for how to process and frame and to think going forward in this new year. This is a phenomenal book. It's really not that long, so you can go read it yourselves, but the treat maybe might just be that you don't have to read it. Let me bring forward some of the themes for us to consider, because I think this is a great way to start the year. In fact, I have read that the 19th century Scottish professor, John Duncan, would assign this book to a student. So as he was training particularly for ministry, and when he would assign this book to them for reading, he would say. Gentlemen, prepare yourselves for the knife. I mean, what an opening, what an opening gambit for somebody who's recommending a book to you or acquiring that you read a book. And like Owen's stuff, I think that this is true. It's the kind of book that doesn't pull any punches. I mean, this whole book is written on a single verse from Romans 12, uh, Romans chapter six, verse 12, and the verse reads, let not sin, therefore reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions. And what basically Owen unpacks from that is he draws back to this idea of what it means to be not under the law, but now under grace. Now you guys probably know if you know anything about. John Owen, he was a Puritan hanging out in the 17th century and he wrote like he got paid by the Semicolon and this book called Free From Sins Dominion. It, you know, it sounds like a victory lap, doesn't it? For the Christian, and this is what I wanna get into, this is where some of the treat lies. It sounds like we're saying, I'm free, I'm done, I'm out. And Owen is there with his knife. He's there lovingly and firmly and repeatedly to say yes. But also, no, not, no in. There's no freedom, but no, as in you don't understand what kind of freedom this is. That's why it's so critical to think about this. So I thought let's hang out for a couple minutes. Let's walk through some of these ideas. This is all Owen. It's all stuff I've been processing. I'm hoping that it'll be something that sets you up for the new year, helps you think a little bit about what goals you might have. And by the way, I don't think it's a bad idea to set some goals for yourself as long as you're not legalistic, but you come into this with a renewed passion to serve the Lord Jesus. In 2026 in big and faith reaching ways. I think all of that calls us to kind of communal response in living out the theology that we espouse or the things that we pack into our mind. We're all gonna track probably this year, or many of us do if we're nerdy like you are Me, the things that we listen to and the things that we read. But what about the end of the year? Like the content and the spiritual depth of our lives. If we could measure that, if we could actually think back on it and meditate on what have we done, what have we tried to process, what have we tried to live out? I don't think it's a bad idea to say to yourself, if I'm going to think about that this time next year, what will I have to think about, if anything? So I think Owen really sets us up here with this big idea. [00:08:39] Understanding Sin's Dominion [00:08:39] Jesse Schwamb: And the big idea is this, sin still lives in believers, but it no longer rules believers. Sin still lives in believers, but it does not rule there anymore. It remains a presence, but it's not a king. It still barks but doesn't own the house. And if you're thinking, well, great, so why does it feel like sin has a mortgage on my soul? Owen has answers for us. And those are questions that equally, almost every day I think about. And the beauty is he's not gentle about it, but he's deeply pastoral. He's like a doctor who tells you the truth while he also hands you the medicine. And that's one of the things I really like about this book. So let's talk about this idea of dominion. Why even throw that in the title Dominion's, kind of an old tiny word of power and control, and I dunno how often you use dominion like in your vocabulary, just casually when you're talking to people. But he starts off by essentially telling us what he means by this. Actually, more importantly, like what scripture means about sins, dominion, it's rain. It's talking about rule mastery governing power. Dominion means sin, calls the shots, sets the direction, issues the order, and gets obeyed. And so. After all that's set up, the question that we get that's diagnostic is, and I pose this to you, is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you because it's not the same thing. I think believers with various senses of conscience and sensitivity to these, these things will process that differently. And you should try to understand is sin merely present in you or is sin in charge of you? And I might add not just in charge writ large, but are there areas of your life where you've courted off, sectioned off where sin is in charge, where it is calling all the shots? A believer may feel sin painfully. I mean, I think there are times by God's grace that I do, and I'm sure there are times when you as well feel that way. Sin may harass. Attempt interrupt and disturb, but. The scripture insists that that's different than sin reigning. In other words, the believers fight with sin is now proof of sins dominion, actually, it's often proof sin has lost dominion, and I think this should be great encouragement to us. Lemme say it like a different way, tyrants. Don't usually get resisted by loyal subjects, and the resistance itself tells you something has changed. If you are rebellious against sin, then this shows something about your power to one, perceive it to be an enemy, even if it's present you're in the war, but also that there is power that you've received. Externally to recognize and then to fight against that sin, and no one knows that. The tender conscience is going to panic here because that's what tender conscience always do. Tony and I talked about that. If you're tender, you hear sin and your soul immediately opens 12 tabs entitled, what have I Not Saved? And we've joked about how this is kind of one of those things, especially in reformed circles, where we are so quick and insistent to show the depravity of sin, to emphasize the point, and then to bring the law to exemplify that point that sometimes this, especially among the sheep, those who are saved, those called in Christ, they become discouraged. And whether it's any of the Puritan writers who emphasize that without coming alongside and presenting the gospel side by side, or even more contemporary examples, you know, you've heard Tony and I joke about, you know, all these preachers who will really come down too hard almost on God's own people. And this is where it's so important that we understand that yes, the bad news is absolutely necessary. I mean, first of all, the bad news is truth, and that is that we are totally depraved, not as depraved as we can or should be, but depraved in every. Part of our own lives such that sin is prolific and ubiquitous and therefore taints all things That is literally a death sentence. And this is why the good news is good, because it's good news about bad news and that is that where that bad news is present. Here comes Christ as this second or the last Adam. So as in one. One man's sin all died in one man's sacrifice and righteousness all will live. Those who repent and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. That is the good news. So Owen slows down and he says, look at the category. Dominion is not the same as influence, not the same as temptation, not the same as indwelling corruption. Dominion is a throne, and sin may still throw stones at the palace, but if Christ is king, then sin isn't. I think you heard me say on one of the more recent episodes. That we all are slave to something or someone. So the question isn't who is your master, but what is your master like? And that's really what Paul is after in Romans. And what Owen kind of picks up here is his question is one of dominion. Woo. Who is set up on that...
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The Paradox of Divine Humility
12/19/2025
The Paradox of Divine Humility
In episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood, host Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological question: "Is God humble?" Through a careful examination of Philippians 2 and the narrative of Pharaoh in Exodus, Jesse unpacks how Christ's incarnation represents the ultimate act of divine humility. This episode reveals how Jesus—fully God and fully man—humbled himself through obedience to the point of death on a cross. As we approach the Christmas season, this timely reflection helps us understand that Christ's humility isn't just a theological concept but the very foundation of our salvation and the magnetic force that draws sinners to him. Jesse connects this humility to Jesus' parables about seeking the lost, showing that God's love manifests through the paradox of the exalted one becoming lowly. Key Takeaways Humility is fundamentally a creaturely virtue that acknowledges God as Lord and responds in obedience. Christ's incarnation wasn't a subtraction of divinity but an addition of humanity, allowing him to humble himself. Divine humility is displayed in Jesus becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:8). Pride, the opposite of humility, is actively opposed by God throughout Scripture. Christ's humility is what draws sinners to him, as seen in the parables of the lost coin, sheep, and son. True humility embraces our limitations as creatures and recognizes God's rightful authority. Jesus learned obedience through suffering, becoming the perfect high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses. The Paradox of Divine Humility Christ's humility represents one of the most astonishing paradoxes in Scripture. As Jesse explains, humility is properly understood as a creaturely virtue—it acknowledges God as Lord and obeys as a servant. For the eternal Son to humble himself, he first had to take on human nature. The incarnation wasn't God ceasing to be God but rather God adding humanity to himself. The divine Son emptied himself "not of divinity as if that were even possible, but of the privilege of not being human, not being a creature, not suffering the bounds and limitations of finitude and the pains and afflictions of the fallen world." This emptying makes possible Christ's perfect obedience. Since humility means acknowledging God as Lord and obeying as a servant, the Son took "the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." This allowed Jesus to demonstrate a servant heart with equal passion for God's holiness and his people's purity. Unlike our inconsistent obedience, Jesus' obedience was "an all the way kind of obedience" that persisted through suffering to death on a cross. The Magnetic Draw of Christ's Humility One of the most profound insights from the episode is how Christ's humility functions as a magnetic force drawing sinners to him. Jesse notes that in the parables, tax collectors and sinners were drawn not to the Pharisees' teaching but to Jesus himself. They came "almost magnetically" to be in his presence and hear his words. Why would this be? The answer lies in recognizing that "we all have a master" and "we are all bound to something." The critical question becomes: "How good and kind is your master?" Christ's humility reveals him to be the perfect master—one who does not lord his authority over us but uses it to serve us, even to the point of death. This servant-hearted humility draws people because it demonstrates love in action. When Jesus humbles himself to seek the lost, he reveals that the gospel isn't about making "naughty people good, but to make dead people alive and alive in him so that their life is hidden within him." Memorable Quotes "To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant. In order to do so, then the Son had to take this form of a servant being born in the likeness of men." "Christ's obedience was an all the way kind of obedience, a true obedience. It wasn't part and parcel, it wasn't peace wise, it didn't be for a part of time, as long as it was comfortable and then try something else." "To humble oneself is not to be less than human. It rather is pride that is our cancer. It's pride that corrodes our true dignity. To humble ourselves is to come even ever closer, step by step to the bliss, I think, and the full flourishing for which we're made." Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: So how did Jesus humble himself and this we could spend loved ones in eternity and likely will. Talking about how did he do this By becoming obedient. It wasn't even mean to. Here is the one who is the God man. Truly God. Truly man. To humble oneself is to acknowledge God as Lord and then to obey as servant in order to do so. Then the son had to take this form of a servant being born in a likeness of men. Again, this is so rich because I think without understanding the servant heart of Christ, where there is a power and a passion in Christ for the holiness of God that is at the same time equaled with the passion for the purity and the holiness of his people. Welcome to episode 475 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where all of mankind is on the naughty list. Hey, brothers and sisters, I am solo hosting once again on this episode, but I don't want you to worry. Tony will be back. Tony is alive and well. He is out in the wild doing his thing. Actually, this is probably the time of year where Tony and I bring forward that annual or perennial denial. You know, the one, it's sy against the frailty, weakness, contingency of humankind. And most often manifested in this time of year in sickness. So I don't know where you live in the world, but in my part of the world, everybody's getting it and everything is going around. The sickness is everywhere. And even if you're bobbing and weaving, if you're laying low, if you're trying to keep your head down, it just seems somehow. To snipe you. And so it sniped Tony last week and this week. Now it is his family and so he's doing what we shall do for another. He's caring for those in his own regard that are sick and unwell. And so that means it's just me on this particular episode, but not to fear. We've got lots of great things to talk about. [00:02:12] The Question: Is God Humble? [00:02:12] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, the whole purpose of this episode is going to be talking about this question is God humble and. This, if you think it's just a one-off episode. It's actually born out of this continued series that we're doing where we're going through the parables. And again, we've been talking a lot about lostness and finding things and Christ coming and seeking, saving those things that were very lost. And so as I continue to process this with Tony, one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is this question is God. Humble and what does that even have to do with any of these wild parables that we've been talking about? You know the ones too, especially if you've been listening along and hopefully you have go back, check those bad boys out. We've been talking about the lost coin, the lost Sheep, and we have yet to get to because we're just teasing this for you. We, we keep telling you it's coming, but that's just to build like this amazing anticipation for the parable of the lost son or the prodigal son. It's coming, and part of that, again, for me is wrapped up in this question, is God humble? So let's talk about that a little bit. [00:03:13] Humility in Scripture [00:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: It's interesting to me that throughout the scriptures, we find across both all the New Testament, that God gives us this imperative to seek humility or to put on humility, or to have a humble mind, as Peter says. And it's something that is so ubiquitous that we kind of just flies by us. Of course. Like we would get the sense that it would be ridiculous to be like. I am so good at being humble that that in itself is oxymoronic. And yet we also know that we don't want to advertise, that we're trying to seek after humility. 'cause it seems like that's the very thing that we're trying to avoid in proclaiming or promulgating our pride and that kind of thing. But it's not just that, of course, God is seeking his children to be humble, but I think one of the most condemning things the scripture says to us about how God behaves. Toward people is that he opposes the proud. So the opposite of being humble, and we'll get to that in a second. We had to define what that means, but let's just take for a second that the opposite of that might be being prideful. It is fascinating that it's not just God is indifferent toward pride, that he does everything in his volition to push against it. And of course, because nothing can thwart the outstretched in mighty arm of God, that means that he wins inevitably against all that is pride prideful. And so he opposes it. And this is what. We should realize is that really the eschatological judgment, the fact that there is both heaven and hell reward and eternal punishment. This is a reflection of God opposing the proud that in the final state, the one who says, I want nothing to do with God because I can take care of it myself, is the one that God must oppose pose because he always. Opposes that which is prideful, and so it makes sense. Then if he opposes the proud, if that is in a way, an enemy that he will ultimately defeat, it cannot stand up against him that shouldn't. That in that path is both destruction that is internally derived and chosen, but also destruction that comes externally because it will be defeated. Then the best thing that God's people could be is to be humble. And so the question I think then persists, can God be humble? Is God. Humble. One of the things that is clear in scripture, again, this is the testimony of the entire arc of the salvific story of God and his recu of his people. Um, the coming and drawing close giving of himself so that he might draw people onto himself. Is that the testimony of humility is both positive and negative in the scriptures. So we could look at examples of those who humbled themselves. That's what the scripture says, like Josiah, Hezekiah, Rebo, Ahab, Vanessa, and then there, of course, you could probably think of as just as many negative examples who did not. What comes to my mind, of course, is Pharaoh. Or am Amen or Zetia. So what becomes clear though is when you look at those examples that the humbling first belongs to the hand of God. That even here, once again, God's doing all the verbs. That's exactly what he does. And so this idea of even like humbling yourself. Has like a precursor, there's an antecedent. And is God doing some kind of great work to allow for this humbling to even take place? He initiates the humbling of his creatures. And once he has, then the question confronts us, uh, which is, are we going to receive it? How will we bear up underneath it? Will we submit ourselves to it because God has allowed us, or has humbled ourselves first so that we don't respond in kind. So in response to his humbling hand. Will we kick against him? Or as the, you know, king James version says, will we kick against the gods or are we going to come and humble ourselves before God? So this idea, I think of humbling ourselves isn't just like you wake up one day and you say, no, it'd be really fantastic. Is my life would be better if I was just humble. I, I hear that God opposed to the proud, I don't wanna get. Lost in that. I don't wanna get wrapped in that. I would rather, instead I just become more humble. Even the ability to humble oneself first comes from this humbling hand of God, which is of course the greatest gift. And so of course Peter writes, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God. I mean, that's where I'm drawing this from and. That is the first descent of humility. The first coming down is a word that God would do that for us, will put us in a place that we might be humbled. And then the creature has somewhat in his turn kind of imperfect language, but somehow in his response that God is humbling me. Will I embrace it? Will I humble myself? So given that background, I think you know exactly where I'm about to go in the scripture, and that is. The pretty, I would say, epic passage of humility, which is Philippians two. It's one of the most striking assertions in all of scriptures. That Christ himself, Jesus the Savior, the one who is truly God and truly man, he humbled himself and God himself truly divine, truly human, and the person of his son, he humbles himself. And I think that is worth the slow meditation and a little bit of marveling again, as we consider that in light of. All that happens in these parables about lostness and ness is coming from in some way this first humility. And I think that's just so critical because it's not just context, it's the air in which we breathe and operate and understand who we are and who we are in Christ. And so I think before like we even assume. I wanna assume like too much about like this idea of humility and then getting it ultimately to this question is God humble, which you may think I just answered by reading Philippians two eight, but in fact I think it's even more complex and more beautiful and more deeply layered than all of that. I think it's worth for a second, just thinking about this idea of like, what is humility? [00:08:35] Pharaoh's Pride vs. Humility [00:08:35] Jesse Schwamb: And as far as I can tell, really the first mention of humility outright, like outright mention explicit notation in the scriptures comes in that showdown between Egypt's Pharaoh and Yahweh mediated through Moses and. And I picked this because it's really instructive for getting a sense of how the Bible, how the scripture, the Holy Spirit is apprehending this word and driving it into the context so that we might learn from it, so that later on we're told that we ought to exhibit humility, put on humility that we understand it in the way that God has taught it to us. And so you'll remember. Probably that Moses dared to appear before Pharaoh. He is an Exodus five, and he speaks on Yahweh's behalf, and it's that famous sentence, that famous imperative, let my people go to, which Pharaoh replies in my paraphrase, listen, I don't know who Yahweh is. I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't listen to his voice. I don't acknowledge him, and therefore you can't go. It's just not gonna happen. What is incredible about this. What I think is like really illustrative for our lives is that Pharaoh swollen in pride here, and again, God's gonna pose him swollen with all of this. Pride has, it's not that he hasn't thought through what he's saying here, it's just that he's made an incredible miscalculation. He actually did a little mathematics here as the creature, and he decides that. As a creature in relation to the creator God that he does not need to obey. In other words, he does not acknowledge or recognize or know this God, and because he doesn't know any of those things about Yahweh, then he's well within his reason to come to the conclusion that he does not need to obey and therefore he refuses. The reason why I think that's so critical and a little bit wild is that is exactly what the natural man is prone to do to make this miscalculation built on even some kind of reasonable logic, so to speak. That says, well, because I don't understand it, because I don't see it, because I can't acknowledge it because I've never heard it. Therefore, it cannot exist. It doesn't exist. It's not worthy of being obeyed. It's a bit like saying, just because I've never seen fire, that's not hot. And so it's crazy here that in the midst of all of that, we could say Pharaoh has made this enormous miscalculation. And so what he's going to do is he's going to essentially oppose God. He refuses to obey, and then of course, Exodus 10 as we move. This story describes this call to humility, and it is a call to humility, which when I was thinking back through this, I was like, this is wild. Because we tend to think this story as like submission and beating down and humility might not be the principle word. That comes to our mind when we think about how Har Pharaoh has to ultimately respond. But after seven plagues on the cusp of the eighth plague, God speaks to Pharaoh, and again, he's listen. He says to him, how long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? So fascinating because we have this. Humbling, mighty hand of God, the outstretched work of God, his hand and arm going out into the world of his creation and putting Pharaoh in a particular place and position. And the piercing question in this context of this extended powerful encounter gives us this glimpse into the heart of humility, which I think is this humility recognizes and obeys the one who is truly. God. So there's not just an intellectual scent, but an experiential knowledge that comes from the revelation of who God is that is under his purview granted to his people, and that then causes us to acknowledge and obey the one who's truly Lord. It's exact opposite of affairs response, which again says, I don't know that voice. I've never heard it. Who is Yahweh? And instead it's replaced with a humility that acknowledges that God is Lord of all, that Jesus Christ is one only son, and that his Holy Spirit is with and indwells his people and that he is truly Lord. So humility entails this kind of right view, I think of self. Because Pharaoh Miscalculates, but the humble person makes the right calculus, the one who is created by God and accountable to God, which requires the right view of God as creator and this authority in relation to all his creatures. And so humility then is of course, like not a preoccupation with self or one's, even one's own lowness only in so much as it's in relation to what we just mentioned. That's a right view of self. It's an agreement with God. Of course confession coming alongside agreeing with God, but it's a mindful and conscious understanding of who God is and his highness, his holiness, that he's high and lifted up, and then the self in respect to his position. You know, that's one of the things that I think always strikes me about humility is that it's this idea and this acknowledgement that God is high and lifted up. And so while we don't come too hard on ourselves merely because we want to create a pity party, it's a recognition that. Aside from the mediator work of Christ to to stand in the presence of God would to be literally torn asunder by the molecule because his holiness cannot be, or rather, I would say our sinfulness cannot be in this presence of the one who is perfect in majesty and in righteousness, in intellect, and in in comprehension and creativity. We cannot exist in that space apart from this mediated work of Christ the beautiful. Be editorial, like benevolent distance, so to speak, that Christ creates so that we might come into the presence of God, as Hebrew says, running as it were, coming in, not haphazardly, but purposefully into the throne room of God because. And his holiness. He's a way to, he's made a way for him to be just and justifier. That is incredible. Loved ones. It's beautiful. And that is all. Again, I think just underneath this parable, it's starting with this sense of humility has brought all of this into play, and it's a critical part of God's design and plan. There's a condescension, but I think even here, underneath that condescension is something about humility. That is worth discussing. And there is, the question again, is God humble. So put it another way. Humility, I think embraces the reality that you and I. We're not God. You know, pride led to humanity's fall when Adam and Eve desired to be like God, which is contrary to his command and humility would have obeyed his command, which is what we'll see when we come to Christ and especially Christ's work. So. [00:15:06] Christ's Humility and Obedience [00:15:06] Jesse Schwamb:...
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Grace That Makes Us Willing
12/12/2025
Grace That Makes Us Willing
In this solo episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores the profound theological underpinnings of Jesus' parables in Luke 15. With co-host Tony Arsenal absent due to illness, Jesse takes listeners through the "deleted scenes" – insights and reflections that often occur off-mic – about the parables of the Lost Sheep and Lost Coin. These stories reveal God's relentless pursuit of sinners and set the stage for the upcoming discussion of the Prodigal Son parable. Jesse unpacks how these parables demonstrate not just God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active seeking of them – a grace that doesn't merely find us willing but makes us willing. This episode serves as a theological bridge, slowing listeners down to fully appreciate the scandal of God's love before diving into Jesus' most famous parable. Key Takeaways Context Matters: The parables of Luke 15 are Jesus' response to the Pharisees' grumbling about Him receiving sinners and eating with them. This historical context reveals the radical nature of Christ's ministry compared to the religious establishment. Grace Makes Us Willing: Drawing from Thomas Watson's quote, Jesse explains that God's grace doesn't find us willing to repent but actually creates that willingness in us – a foundational concept in Reformed theology. The Initiative of God: In all three parables, God is portrayed as the active seeker. The shepherd searches for the sheep, the woman sweeps for the coin, demonstrating that salvation begins with God's initiative, not ours. The Scandalous Love of Jesus: Christ's approach to sinners appeared scandalous to religious leaders because it violated their understanding of who deserved God's attention. Christ's Sympathetic Identification: Jesus doesn't just save us from a distance but enters into our suffering, identifying with us in our pain while remaining sinless. Heaven's Joy Over Salvation: The parables reveal God's extraordinary joy over each individual sinner who is saved, showing that the entire cost of redemption would be worth it even for just one person. From Death to Life: Drawing from Colossians 2, Jesse emphasizes that Jesus didn't come to make bad people good but to make dead people alive, canceling our certificate of debt through His cross. The Scandal of Divine Initiative The religious establishment of Jesus' day operated on the principle that religion was for "good people" – those who could maintain moral standards and ritual purity. When tax collectors and sinners were drawn to Jesus, the Pharisees were scandalized not just by Jesus' association with them, but by the possibility that these "hopeless cases" might be included in God's kingdom. This context sets up the revolutionary nature of Jesus' parables. As Jesse explains, "Religion by itself cannot help any of those people. Can't help pariahs in that way, and so it did no good then to command the good people to mix with the bad people, and then to treat them kindly and tell them of new possibilities." What makes Christianity utterly unique is that it begins not with human initiative but with divine pursuit. God in Christ actively seeks those who are lost, not waiting for them to clean themselves up or take the first step. This complete reversal of religious expectations demonstrates why these parables were and remain so radical. Grace That Transforms Our Unwillingness The Reformed theological principle that Jesse highlights through Thomas Watson's quote – "Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing" – strikes at the heart of human pride and misconception about salvation. Left to ourselves, we don't merely lack the ability to come to God; we actively resist Him. Jesse elaborates: "How good of God that He would send His Son unto us while we were yet His enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against Him." The wonder of grace is not just that God forgives when we repent, but that He creates the very repentance within us. This is why the shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to find the one – the sheep doesn't find its own way home. This is the beating heart of Reformed soteriology: salvation is entirely of the Lord, from first to last, which makes it secure and gives all glory to God alone. Memorable Quotes "God seeking us is the foundation of seeking Him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes us willing. That is the Reformed theology." "He's not this like sinless Superman. What I mean by that is... it takes out the humanity of Christ. It takes out this feeling heart of Christ as if to like separate him so much from us. But the beauty of these parables is... Christ puts himself close to us in that he feels like us, though he is not us, and that is the heart. That is where his power of coming to save is brought into our lives." "Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He also has taken it out of the way. Having nailed it to the cross. How good is that sentence?" Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: It reminds me of this quote from. Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes. Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him. Welcome to episode 473 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for Lost Sheep and Lost Coins. Hey, brothers and sisters, you're listening to another episode of The Reformed Brotherhoodhood, but you've probably already noticed. That we are missing my co-host and my brother Tony, who regrettably was taken up ill this week, and so in his convalescence, I'm coming at you with a solo episode and what are you probably asking is worth listening to in the solo episode? Well, I have a proposal for you. So often what happens is when Tony and I sit down. And we record a beautiful, robust conversation, the definitive kind of talk on some topic. We shut off the microphone. And then of course he and I continue to talk to one another. And what often happens is somehow, like a second or a third episode basically starts because we go back to what we were talking about before and we have some kind of new insight or something new that we wanted to say that didn't make it into the episode. [00:01:56] Deleted Scenes and Parables Overview [00:01:56] Jesse Schwamb: And so this episode is gonna be about some of those deleted scenes if you were, were like the things that. We talked about, but didn't make it into some of our recent conversations about the parables, these three parables of the Lost Sheep, the lost coin, and now The Lost Son. Now I know what you're thinking, and I made a promise to Tony. We're not gonna get to the Prodigal son on this episode. That is something he and I are looking forward to discussing with one another and with you. So that will be next week. But on this little episode, I thought it was best to slow down just for a second and to give you, again, some of those things we've been talking about as we've been thinking about lostness, and to set that up as a precursor to wet your appetite just a little bit for this biggest of all of the parables, maybe the most well-known parable in the entire universe. The parable of the prodigal son, which again, is coming for you, but not on this one. Don't even get me started. How dare you. Now, normally if this were a traditional episode, you would hear that ous segue from me that goes something like this. Hey Tony, are you affirming with or denying again, something on this episode? And because it's just me, it'd be super weird to do something atenol with just myself. [00:03:17] Affirmations and Community Engagement [00:03:17] Jesse Schwamb: I figured it is high time for me to give you a particular affirmation, so here's what I'm gonna do. I am affirming with you like you brother and sister listening. I truly am affirming with you because as the year draws to close, I was thinking just again, how grateful I am for everybody who hangs out, everybody who listens, everybody who gives to the reformed brotherhood, because we all do it together. Nothing happens by accident. Nothing shows up in your podcast feed without somebody taking care of the attendant costs, without people lending their voices, without conversation around it. And if you're wondering, well, who are these other people? Because I thought it was just you too. There are brothers and sisters from all over the world who are looking to follow closely after Lord Jesus Christ, wanting to process theology and wanting to do so in a way that makes us better and more obedient toward our loving savior. And in serving those around us. And the good news is you also can just connect with us and with them. And the best way to do that, as we've said so many times before, but I'm gonna say it one more time for everybody in the back, is you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just a messaging app, and we've carved out just a little corner of that app so that people that are listening to the podcast can come hang out and talk about. Whatever you want. So the way to do that is go to any browser, pick your favorite one, and just type in t me slash reform brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood, and that link will get you there. You can also do another thing. You can go to reform brotherhood.com. The podcast does have a website, believe it or not, and on that website, reform brotherhood.com live, all of the other episodes we have ever recorded. And so you can search those by topic about what's going on in them. You can find all kinds of different things to listen to. You'll also find a link there if in fact you would like to also support the podcast. So we are so grateful for so many brothers and sisters. Who have decided, you know what? I've been blessed by the conversations by the community, and I wanna make sure that it remains that way free of charge to everyone. And they're the ones along with us that are shouldering that burden, and I'm so grateful. So you can find a link there if in fact you are so inclined to give so. Brothers and sisters, I'm affirming with you it's time that I did that, and I'm so grateful for all of you. And again, the purpose of this little episode is to spend a little bit of time getting ready, getting after it. [00:05:42] The Parables' Context and Significance [00:05:42] Jesse Schwamb: For this, the biggest of all, the granddaddy of all the parables, the parable of the prodigal son and I, as I was thinking about this episode, it occurred to me it's a bit like, I don't know where you live. Where I live, there are these signs on the road that can script the speed at which you can travel on those roads at least legally. Right, and I was thinking about this as I was driving the other day, that I have a road with a speed limit. Say it's 50 miles an hour, but there is a bend in this road. And on that bend as I approach it, there's another sign of a different color that's more suggestive and it's a lower speed limit. It's as if to say, listen, I know you can travel at 50, but what might be wise right now is to slow it down so that you don't veer off the road because. As you take this turn, what's best practice, what's most safe for you is to slow down for a second. And I was kind of thinking about that as we were going into these parables. We wanna get to the parable of the prodigal sun. It's dramatic, it's dynamic. There's all kinds of lovely details in it. It's exciting. We've got people now finally, whereas we had intimate objects in agriculture, now we're getting to human family dynamics and interrelations and all this activity. And it's good. We should wanna get there, but I'm kind of feeling like it's a bit like that sign that says, you know what? We might wanna slow down for a second before you turn into this parable. Why don't you take this curve at a slightly slower speed? And so hence this little tiny episode to bring to you again, some of those deleted scenes. Some of the things that Tony, I've been talking about that never have quite made it into all of the recordings, because they probably happened before afterwards and the recording button had already been disabled. So. Let me give you the thing that I think, Tony, I've been talking about a lot and we've definitely been thinking about, and that is again, going back to like, why did these parables even come up? Like was it Jesus volition just to start talking about this stuff? Why is it that there are three versions of it? Why are they kind of escalating and growing in magnitude? There's clearly a crescendo coming. Hopefully you're hearing it. Like it's picking up, the pace is moving, the volume is increasing, and the stakes are getting higher and higher and higher. So what gives why all of this? And I think we gotta go back to Luke 15. Of course. We gotta look at just that first verse because to me. [00:08:00] The Heart of Reformed Theology [00:08:00] Jesse Schwamb: In Luke 15, this is some of like the best comfort food of the gospel, don't you think? I mean, in this, it's like the warmest, richest passage, almost all the gospels in terms of the presentation of this really good news. And you know, these stories aren't just sentimental tales. They actually reveal the beating heart of reform, theology, the beating, passionate love. And heart of Christ for his people. This truth that God is the one who seeks, saves, and rejoices over sinners. And so we gotta start in context because it's precisely because of that beating heart, that initiative, that volition, that Christ brings all of this up, but he brings it up in response to something that's happening. And that's where we get in verse one. Now, the tax collectors and sinners we're all drawing near to him. I think sometimes we run, at least I do way too past. Fast past that verse, the tax collectors and the sinners we're all drawing near to him. It should be the kind of thing like talk about things that make you go, Hmm, why? Why are we getting that now? That specific indicator here that they're drawing near. And then not only that it's being told to us, but of course what was it about Christ that drew these people? Because traditionally there, there was a lot of religion happening in Jesus' day. In some ways something special and different is happening here, that while the religion was not drawing these people, that the, the superstructures there, the participants, the leaders were not drawing this crowd by design. Instead, they're drawn to Jesus. There's something not just in the teaching but who he is, and Luke tells us tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to him. He goes on to say, and the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled saying, this man receives sinners and eats with them. As a result of this, Jesus tells then these three parables. It's almost like Jesus essentially saying to the Pharisees, listen, you're accusing me of receiving sinners. Yes, you are exactly right, but I want you to know why. What a beautiful thing for him to explain and then to explain it in these thrice kind of implications and stories and metaphors. It's a beautiful thing. It reminds me of this quote from. Period in Thomas Watson who said, God seeking us is the foundation of seeking him. Grace does not find us willing, but grace makes us willing, and I think that's exactly what we're getting in this first advent of Christ. By way of these stories, of course, this grace that makes. Us willing. That is the reform of theology. How good of God that he would send his son unto us while we were yet his enemies. In other words, while that clenched fist was within us, while we saw God as only a threat, while we wanted to be covenant breakers, that's what we wanted. We want to rebel against him. And it's an incredible thing. It's far better, not that grace finds us willing, but that grace makes us willing, that grace compels us because we do not even know what's the best for ourselves. And so here again, Jesus tells us these three parables, these three stories to convey this incredible point. And that is that there is surely hope for all. God's love extends even to these sinners. That the glorious truth, that glorious truth shines out in all of these parables, and it's meant to be impressed upon us in like increasing degree that God's amazing love is both in its scope and its reach, and especially contrast. The ideas of then these. Pharisees and the scribes on this subject, he comes at them hard with these series of events and these stories. Tony, I've been talking about that a lot. Like we just can't get beyond that. I can't even, I wish I could comprehend it in a more deep way. You know, the first two parables are, it's dying to impress upon us that the love of God. Is this activity. It is effort and fire and reach and going after and passion and love, and it seeks out the sinner and it takes like infinite trouble in order to find him and rescue him. It's willing to pursue all to love, all, to take up the cost of all, and then to show the joy of God and all the hosts of heaven when even just one. Soul is saved. So it's not even this massive effort undertaking, which weighs the benefits and the costs and says, well, it's gonna be worth it in the end because the dividends earned from making this investment will be far greater than the investment itself. And what God does in Christ is he sends his son not. Reservedly, not like arms reach, so he could snatch him back up when harm beel him, but he gives him so unreservedly in passive and active obedience so that the sinner might be saved. Even just one and one, just one is saved. All of heaven rejoices there. There is a full consummate expression of happiness and completeness and joy of just one. Being saved and brought into God's kingdom. In other words, if that entire cost were for just one, God would still be willing to bear it. Jesus would still come in his active and past obedience to accomplish that very thing. And it's all of this that's moving us, of course, to the parable of the prodigal son, but I cannot even get there. Don't, don't even try to get me to go there. I know you're all doing it. So there is this great and incredible outstanding point. [00:13:20] The Scandalous Love of Jesus [00:13:20] Jesse Schwamb: It's something else that Tony had been talking about is that there's a simplicity, of course in all of these accounts, but there's also like this great complexity, especially because of this context. And I think as well what we've been really. Settling on in our conversations outside of the podcast is just how scandalous this makes Jesus seem and appear like that Jesus does appear or he should appear to us like too good to be true, too loving, too kind, too recklessly spend thrift. And again, that's what we're gonna find in the next parable, but that that is for real and it doesn't make him weak. It might be an expression of meekness, a power under control, but it shows that the humility of God in Christ is really beyond our ability to comprehend in reach that is so thorough and so full, and so rich and so warm that Christ is, as it were, experiencing a great, great joy. In the sinner coming and being saved, and him identifying with the sinner to such a degree and going out and...
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Rejoicing in Being Found: The Divine Delight in Redemption
12/05/2025
Rejoicing in Being Found: The Divine Delight in Redemption
In this theologically rich episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony delve into the Parable of the Lost Coin from Luke 15:8-10. They explore how this parable reveals God's passionate pursuit of His elect and the divine joy that erupts when they are found. Building on their previous discussion of the Lost Sheep, the brothers examine how Jesus uses this second parable to further emphasize God's sovereign grace in salvation. The conversation highlights the theological implications of God's ownership of His people even before their redemption, the diligent efforts He undertakes to find them, and the heavenly celebration that follows. This episode offers profound insights into God's relentless love and the true nature of divine joy in redemption. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Lost Coin emphasizes that God actively and diligently searches for those who belong to Him, sparing no effort to recover what is rightfully His. Jesus uses three sequential parables in Luke 15 to progressively reveal different aspects of God's heart toward sinners, with escalating emphasis on divine joy. The coin represents something of significant value that already belonged to the woman, illustrating that God's elect belong to Him even before their redemption. Unlike finding something new, the joy depicted is specifically about recovering something that was already yours but had been lost, highlighting God's eternal claim on His people. The spiritual inability of the sinner is represented by the coin's passivity - it cannot find its own way back and must be sought out by its owner. Angels rejoice over salvation not independently but because they share in God's delight at the effectiveness of His saving power. The parable challenges believers to recover their joy in salvation and to share it with others, much like the woman who called her neighbors to celebrate with her. Expanded Insights God's Determined Pursuit of What Already Belongs to Him The Parable of the Lost Coin reveals a profound theological truth about God's relationship to His elect. As Tony and Jesse discuss, this isn't a story about finding something new, but recovering something that already belongs to the owner. The woman in the parable doesn't rejoice because she discovered unexpected treasure; she rejoices because she recovered what was already hers. This illustrates the Reformed understanding that God's people have eternally belonged to Him. While justification occurs in time, there's a real sense in which God has been considering us as His people in eternity past. The parable therefore supports the doctrines of election and particular redemption - God is not creating conditions people can move into or out of, but is zealously reclaiming a specific people who are already His in His eternal decree. The searching, sweeping, and diligent pursuit represent not a general call, but an effectual calling that accomplishes its purpose. The Divine Joy in Recovering Sinners One of the most striking aspects of this parable is the overwhelming joy that accompanies finding the lost coin. The brothers highlight that this joy isn't reluctant or begrudging, but enthusiastic and overflowing. The woman calls her friends and neighbors to celebrate with her - a seemingly excessive response to finding a coin, unless we understand the theological significance. This reveals that God takes genuine delight in the redemption of sinners, to the extent that Jesus describes it as causing joy "in the presence of the angels of God." As Jesse and Tony note, this challenges our perception that God might save us begrudgingly. Instead, the parable teaches us that God's "alien work" is wrath, while His delight is in mercy. This should profoundly impact how believers view their own salvation and should inspire a contagious joy that spreads to others - a joy that many Christians, by Tony's own admission, need to recover in their daily walk. Memorable Quotes "Christ love is an act of love and it's always being acted upon the sinner, the one who has to be redeemed, his child whom he goes after. So in the same way, we have Christ showing the self-denying love." - Jesse Schwamb "The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace... The reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased, is because God has this real pleasure to pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire." - Jesse Schwamb "These parables are calling us to rejoice, right? Christ is using these parables to shame the Pharisees and the scribes who refuse to rejoice over the salvation of sinners. How often do we not rejoice over our own salvation sufficiently?" - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: There still is like the sovereign grace of God who's initiating the salvation and there is a kind of effect of calling that God doesn't merely invite, he finds, he goes after he affects the very thing. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that here. The sinner, spiritual inability. There's an utter passivity until found. The coin doesn't seek the woman. The woman seeks the coin. And in this way, I think we see God's act of searching grace. It's all there for us. And the reason why I think it leads to joy, why God is so pleased is because God has this real pleasure. To pluck sinners as brands from the burning fire. Welcome to episode 472 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:57] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. [00:01:02] Jesus and the Parable of the Lost Coin [00:01:02] Jesse Schwamb: So there was this time, maybe actually more than one time, but at least this one time that we've been looking at where Jesus is hanging out and the religious incumbents, the Pharisees, they come to him and they say, you are a friend of sinners, and. Instead of taking offense to this, Jesus turns this all around. Uses this as a label, appropriates it for himself and his glorious character. And we know this because he gives us this thrice repeated sense of what it means to see his heart, his volition, his passion, his love, his going after his people, and he does it. Three little parables and we looked at one last time and we're coming up to round two of the same and similar, but also different and interesting. And so today we're looking at the parable of the lost coin or the Lost dma, or I suppose, whatever kind of currency you wanna insert in there. But once again, something's lost and we're gonna see how our savior comes to find it by way of explaining it. In metaphor. So there's more things that are lost and more things to be found on this episode. That's how we do it. It's true. It's true. So that's how Jesus does it. So [00:02:12] Tony Arsenal: yeah. So it should be how we do it. [00:02:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Yeah, exactly. I cut to like Montel Jordan now is the only thing going through my head. Tell Jordan. Yeah. Isn't he the one that's like, this is how we do it, that song, this is [00:02:28] Tony Arsenal: how we do it. I, I don't know who sings it. Apparently it's me right now. That was actually really good. That was fantastic. [00:02:36] Jesse Schwamb: Hopefully never auto tuned. Not even once. I'm sure that'll make an appearance now and the rest, somebody [00:02:42] Tony Arsenal: should take that and auto tune it for me. [00:02:44] Jesse Schwamb: That would be fantastic. Listen, it doesn't need it. That was perfect. That was right off the cuff, right off the top. It was beautiful. It was ous. [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yes. [00:02:51] Affirmations and Denials [00:02:51] Jesse Schwamb: I'm hoping that appearance, [00:02:53] Tony Arsenal: before we jump into our, our favorite segment here in affirmations of Denials, I just wanted to take a second to, uh, thank all of our listeners. Uh, we have the best listeners in the world. That's true, and we've also got a really great place to get together and chat about things. That's also true. Uh, we have a little telegram chat, which is just a little chat, um, program that run on your phone or in a browser. Really any device you have, you can go to t Me slash Reform Brotherhood and join that, uh, little chat group. And there's lots of stuff going on there. We don't need to get into all the details, but it's a friendly little place. Lots of good people, lots of good conversation. And just lots of good digital fellowship, if that's even a thing. I think it is. So please do join us there. It's a great place to discuss, uh, the episodes or what you're learning or what you'd like to learn. There's all sorts of, uh, little nooks and crannies and things to do in there. [00:03:43] Jesse Schwamb: So if you're looking for a little df and you know that you are coming out, we won't get into details, but you definitely should. Take Tony's advice, please. You, you will not be disappointed. It, it's a fun, fun time together. True. Just like you're about to have with us chatting it up and going through a little affirmations and denials. So, as usual, Tony, what are you, are you affirming with something or are you denying again, something? I'm, I'm on the edge of my seat. I'm ready. [00:04:06] Tony Arsenal: Okay. Uh, it is, I thought that was going somewhere else. Uh, I'm, I'm affirming something. [00:04:13] AI and Problem Solving [00:04:13] Tony Arsenal: People are gonna get so sick of me doing like AI affirmations, but I, it's like I learned a new thing to do with AI every couple of weeks. I ran across an article the other day, uh, that I don't remember where the article was. I didn't save it, but I did read it. And one of the things that pointed out is that a lot of times you're not getting the most out of AI because you don't really know how to ask the questions. True. One of the things it was was getting through is a lot of people will ask, they'll have a problem that they're encountering and they'll just ask AI like, how do I fix this problem? And a lot of times what that yields is like very superficial, basic, uh, generic advice or generic kind of, uh, directions for resolving a problem. And the, I don't remember the exact phrasing, 'cause it was a little while ago since I read it, but it basically said something like, I'm encountering X problem. And despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to resolve it. And by using sort of these extra phrases. What it does is it sort of like pushes the AI to ask you questions about what you've already tried to do, and so it's gonna tailor its advice or its directions to your specific situation a little bit more. So, for example, I was doing this today. We, um, we just had the time change, right? Stupidest thing in the world doesn't make any sense and my kids don't understand that the time has changed and we're now like three or four weeks past the, the time change and their, their schedule still have not adjusted. So my son Augie, who is uh, like three and three quarters, uh, I don't know how many months it is. When do you stop? I don't even know. When you stop counting in months. He's three and a quarter, three quarters. And he will regularly wake up between four 30 and five 30. And when we really, what we really want is for him to be sleeping, uh, from uh, until like six or six 30 at the latest. So he's like a full hour, sometimes two hours ahead of time, which then he wakes up, it's a small house. He's noisy 'cause he's a three and a half year old. So he wakes up the baby. The baby wakes up. My wife, and then we're all awake and then we're cranky and it's miserable. So I, I put that little prompt into, um, into Google Gemini, which is right now is my, um, AI of choice, but works very similar. If you use something like chat, GPT or CLO or whatever, you know, grok, whatever AI tool you have access to, put that little prompt in. You know, something like since the time change, my son has been waking up at four 30 in the morning, despite all efforts to the contrary, I have not been able to, uh, adjust his schedule. And so it started asking me questions like, how much light is in the room? What time does he go to bed? How much does he nap? And it, so it's, it's pulling from the internet. This is why I like Google Geminis. It's actually pulling from the internet to identify like common, common. Related issues. And so it starts to probe and ask questions. And by the time it was done, what it came out with was like a step-by-step two week plan. Basically like, do this tonight, do this tomorrow morning. Um, and it was able to identify what it believes is the problem. We'll see if it actually is, but the beauty now is now that I've got a plan that I've got in this ai, I can start, you know, tomorrow morning I'm gonna try to do what it said and I can tell. The ai, how things went, and it can now adjust the plan based on whether or not, you know, this worked or didn't work. So it's a good way to sort of, um, push an ai, uh, chat bot to probe your situation a little bit more. So you could do this really for anything, right. You could do something like I'm having, I'm having trouble losing weight despite all efforts to the contrary. Um, can you help me identify what the, you know, root problem is? So think about different ways that you can use this. It's a pretty cool way to sort of like, push the, the AI to get a little deeper into the specifics without like a lot of extra heavy lifting. I'm sure there's probably other ways you could drive it to do this, but this was just one clever way that I, that this article pointed out to accomplish this. [00:08:07] Jesse Schwamb: It's a great exercise to have AI optimize itself. Yeah. By you turning your prompts around and asking it to ask you a number of questions, sufficient number, until it can provide an optimize answer for you. So lots, almost every bot has some kind of, you can have it analyze your prompts essentially, but some like copilot actually have a prompt agent, which will help you construct the prompt in an optimal way. Yeah, and that again, is kind of question and answer. So I'm with you. I will often turn it around and say. Here's my goal. Ask me sufficient number of questions so that you can provide the right insight to accomplish said goal. Or like you're saying, if you can create this like, massive conversation that keeps all this history. So I, I've heard of people using this for their exercise or running plans. Famously, somebody a, a, um, journalist, the Wall Street Journal, use it, train for a marathon. You can almost have it do anything for you. Of course, you want to test all of that and interact with it reasonably and ably, right? At the same time, what it does best is respond to like natural language interaction. And so by turning it around and basically saying, help me help you do the best job possible, providing the information, it's like the weirdest way of querying stuff because we're so used to providing explicit direction ourselves, right? So to turn it around, it's kind of a new experience, but it's super fun, really interesting, really effective. [00:09:22] Tony Arsenal: And it because you are allowing, in a certain sense, you're sort of asking the AI to drive the conversation. This, this particular prompt, I know the article I read went into details about why this prompt is powerful and the reason this prompt is powerful is not because of anything the AI's doing necessarily, right. It's because you're basically telling the AI. To find what you've missed. And so it's asking you questions. Like if I was to sit down and go like, all right, what are all the things that's wrong, that's causing my son to be awake? Like obviously I didn't figure it out on my own, so it's asking me what I've already tried and what it found out. And then of course when it tells me what it is, it's like the most obvious thing when it figures out what it is. It's identifying something that I already haven't identified because I've told it. I've already tried everything I can think of, and so it's prompting me to try to figure out what it is that I haven't thought of. So those are, like I said, there's lots of ways to sort of get the ais to do that exercise. Um, it's not, it's not just about prompt engineering, although that there's a lot of science now and a lot of like. Specifics on how you do prompt engineering, um, you know, like building a persona for the ai. Like there's all sorts of things you can do and you can add that, like, I could have said something like, um. Uh, you are a pediatric sleep expert, right? And when you tell it that what it's gonna do is it's gonna start to use more technical language, it's gonna, it's gonna speak to you back as though it's a, and this, this is where AI can get a little bit dangerous and really downright scary in some instances. But with that particular prompt, it's gonna start to speak back to you as though it was a clinician of some sort, diagnosing a medical situation, which again. That is definitely not something I would ever endorse. Like, don't let an AI be your doctor. That's just not, like WebMD was already scary enough when you were just telling you what your symptoms were and it was just cross checking it. Um, but you could do something like, and I use these kinds of prompts for our show notes where I'm like, you're an expert at SEO, like at um, podcast show notes. Utilizing SEO search terms, like that's part of the prompt that I use when I use, um, in, in this case, I use notion to generate most of our show notes. Um, it, it starts to change the way that it looks at things and the way that it, I, it responds to you based on different prompts. So I think it, it's a little bit scary, uh, AI. Can be a strange, strange place. And there's some, they're doing some research that is a little bit frightening. They did a study and actually, like, they, they basically like unlocked an AI and gave it access to a pretend company with emails and stuff and said that a particular employee was gonna shut out, was gonna delete the ai. And the first thing it did was try to like blackmail the employee with like a risk, like a scandalous email. It had. Then after that they, they engineered a scenario where the AI actually had the ability to kill the employee. And despite like explicit instructions not to do anything illegal, it still tried to kill the employee. So there's some scary things that are coming up if we're not, you know, if, if the science is not able to get that under control. But right now it's just a lot of fun. Like it's, we're, we're probably not at the point where it's dangerous yet and hopefully. Hopefully it won't get to that point, but we'll see. We'll see. That got dark real fast, fast, fast. Jesse, you gotta get this. And that was an affirmation. I guess I'm affirming killer murder ais that are gonna kill us all, but uh, we're gonna have fun with it until they do at least. [00:12:52] Jesse Schwamb: Thanks for not making that deny against. 'cause I can only imagine the direction that one to taken. [00:12:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. At least when the AI hears this, it's gonna know that I'm on its side, so, oh, for sure. I, for one, welcome our new AI overlords. So as do Iye. [00:13:05] Christmas Hymns and Music Recommendations [00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: But Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today to get me out of this pit here? [00:13:09] Jesse Schwamb: So, lemme start with a question. Do you have a favorite Christmas hymn? And if so, what is it? [00:13:16] Tony Arsenal: Ooh, that's a tough one. Um, I think I've always been really partial to Oh, holy Night. But, uh, there's, there's not anything that really jumps to mind my, as I've become older and crankier and more Scottish in spirit, I just, Christmas hymns just aren't as. If they're not as prominent in my mind, but oh, holy night or come coming, Emanuel is probably a really good one too. [00:13:38] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. Those are the,...
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The Lost Sheep and the Seeking Shepherd
11/28/2025
The Lost Sheep and the Seeking Shepherd
In episode 471 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal begin a multi-part series on Jesus's parables of lost things in Luke 15. This first installment focuses on the Parable of the Lost Sheep, exploring how Jesus uses this story to reveal God's disposition toward sinners. The hosts examine the contextual significance of this teaching as Jesus's response to the Pharisees' criticism of his fellowship with tax collectors and sinners. Through careful analysis of the text, they unpack how this parable not only rebukes religious self-righteousness but also reveals the active, seeking love of Christ for His own. The discussion highlights the profound theological truth that God's joy is made complete in the restoration of His lost children. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Lost Sheep demonstrates Christ's heart for sinners, showing that seeking the lost is not exceptional behavior but the expected norm for those who understand God's character. Jesus positions this parable as a direct response to the Pharisees' criticism, turning their accusation ("he eats with sinners") into an affirmation of His mission and identity. The lost sheep represents those who belong to Christ but have gone astray; the shepherd's pursuit illustrates Christ's commitment to recover all whom the Father has given Him. God's rejoicing over one repentant sinner reveals a profound theological truth: divine joy increases in the act of showing mercy and restoring the lost. The shepherd's willingness to leave the 99 to find the one reflects not recklessness but the infinite value God places on each of His children. Regular worship practices, including family worship and congregational singing, reflect the same disposition of praise that heaven displays when sinners return to God. The parable serves not only as a comfort to sinners but as a challenge to believers to adopt God's heart toward the lost rather than the judgmental attitude of the Pharisees. Understanding the Shepherd's Heart The central focus of the Parable of the Lost Sheep is not simply God's willingness to receive sinners, but His active pursuit of them. As Tony Arsenal points out, Jesus presents the shepherd's search not as an extraordinary act of sacrifice, but as the obvious and expected response: "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the one that is lost?" Jesus frames this as the normal behavior that any shepherd would exhibit, making the Pharisees' lack of concern for "lost sheep" appear not just uncompassionate but utterly irrational. This reveals a profound truth about God's character: He is not passively waiting for sinners to find their way back to Him; He is actively seeking them out. As Jesse Schwamb emphasizes, "Christ's love is an active, working love." The shepherd does not merely hope the sheep will return; he goes after it until he finds it. This reflects God's covenant commitment to His people—those whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world. The parable thus powerfully illustrates the doctrines of divine election and effectual calling within a deeply personal and relational framework. The Divine Joy in Restoration Perhaps the most striking element of this parable is the emphasis on the shepherd's joy upon finding his lost sheep. This isn't merely relief at recovering lost property, but profound celebration that calls for community participation: "Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost." Jesse highlights Thomas Goodwin's profound insight that "Christ's own joy, comfort, happiness, and glory are increased and enlarged by his showing grace and mercy." This suggests something remarkable about God's relationship with His people—that in some mysterious way, God's joy is made more complete in the act of showing mercy and restoring sinners. The hosts point out that this doesn't imply any deficiency in God, but rather reveals the relational nature of His love. When Jesus states that "there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance," He's indicating that divine celebration isn't prompted merely by moral perfection but by restoration and reconciliation. This understanding transforms how we approach God when we've strayed. As Jesse notes, "Jesus is never tired, flustered, or frustrated when we come to him for fresh forgiveness or renewed pardon." Our repentance doesn't merely avoid punishment; it actually brings joy to the heart of God. This is a profound comfort for believers struggling with sin and failure, assuring us that our return is met not with divine disappointment but with heavenly celebration. Memorable Quotes "This parable of the lost sheep gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children. It's really an exceptional and special window into God's design, his loving compassion for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us, for his children who are lost." - Jesse Schwamb "He wants us to draw on his grace and mercy because it is inherently who he is. And he drew near to us in this incarnation so that his joy and ours could rise and fall together, which is insane that God would come and condescend to that degree that in his giving mercy and in ours receiving it, Christ gets more joy and comfort than we do when we come to him for help and mercy." - Jesse Schwamb "Christ's love is an active working love. Just as the shepherd did not sit still, wailing for his lost sheep, so our blessed Lord did not sit still in heaven pitying sinners. He comes to us, he came to us, and he continues to draw to himself those who are sheep, who hear his voice." - Jesse Schwamb Host Information Jesse Schwamb and Tony Arsenal are the hosts of The Reformed Brotherhood, a podcast that explores Reformed theology and its application to the Christian life. With a blend of theological depth and practical insight, they examine Scripture through the lens of historic Reformed doctrine, offering accessible teaching for believers seeking to grow in their understanding of the faith. Resources Mentioned Scripture: Luke 15:1-7, Matthew 18, John 10 Worship Resource: Sing The Worship Initiative () Theological Reference: Thomas Goodwin's writings on Christ's joy in redemption Brad Kafer and Michael Lewis, The Theocast Tragedy, episode 75, with guest Jeremy Marshall, November 16, 2025, . Joshua Lewis and Michael Rowntree, The Theocast Split: Examining Christian Unity and Theological Differences, November 11, 2025, . Daniel Vincent, Fallout of Theocast, November 15, 2025, . Tony Arsenal, “A Refutation of Reformed Fringe,” Reformed Arsenal, November 2025, . Tony Arsenal, “The Quest For Illegitimate Religious Gnosis: How ‘Fringe’ Theology Deforms Christology,” Heidelblog, November 24, 2025, . Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design. His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, Welcome to episode 471 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:56] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:01:01] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. You know, it seems like sometimes we could just summarize the teaching of Jesus like this. You get a parable and you get a parable, and you get a parable, and we've already, by looking at some of these parables, gotten to see what the kingdom of God means. The kingdom of God is Jesus coming in His power. It's here, but also not yet. The kingdom of God is the judgment of God. The kingdom of God is a blessing of God. The kingdom of God is the treasure of God. And what's special about the series? Parables that we're about to look at is it gives us the beating heart of God, his normative disposition toward his children, which is not like, we haven't seen some of that already, but this is, I think, really an exceptional and special window into God's design. His loving can compare for us, his heart of ministry and seeking for us for his children who are lost. It's really unequal in all the parables and probably among some of the most famous, and I think we'll probably have some maybe like semi hot takes, maybe some like mid hot takes as the young kids say. [00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Mid hot takes. [00:02:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:02:08] Tony Arsenal: So like [00:02:09] Jesse Schwamb: lukewarm takes, well my thought is like, what is a hot take that's not heretical? Do you know what I mean? So it's gotta be, yeah, [00:02:16] Tony Arsenal: there you go. [00:02:16] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It's like, listen, we want to be orthodox in our approach here, but I think we gotta, we gotta chew these up a little bit. Like we gotta digest them, we gotta move them around in our gut and really take everything that we've, we thought we knew about these, we just heard and they've been written on cards or postcards or crocheted into, I guess you're not crocheting bible verses, but like cross stitching Bible verses on pillows and really go deep because I think there's so much here for us, and if this were like for, for everybody that wants to say that, sometimes we take a little bit too long with our series. Again, I do have a question, simple question for all of those people. And that question is how dare you? And the second thing I would say is, you're lucky that you're not listening to a Puritan podcast. Maybe you never would, like at the Puritans in a podcast, the series would never end. They'd start with like a single verse and be like, we're gonna do two episodes on this. And then they'd be getting to the like, you know, 4 71 and they still wouldn't have left like the, the first five words. [00:03:11] Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. We move a little bit faster than that. Pace. Not much. Yeah. Way, [00:03:15] Jesse Schwamb: listen, way faster. By like Puritan standards, we are cruising. Like we're, we're just like NASCAR going through these parables. And to that end, I'll try to keep us moving though. I've already delayed us already because we're, we're late for affirmations. [00:03:30] Affirmations and Denials [00:03:30] Jesse Schwamb: Denials. The time is ripe. It is Now. The fields are gleaning with affirmations and denials. So let's, let's bring them in. Tony, are you denying against, are you affirming with something? [00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: It's a little bit of both, I guess. Um, do it. [00:03:44] Controversial Theology Discussion [00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: A little while ago, uh, it was maybe back in September, I did an episode on, uh, some theology that was being propagated by a podcast called Reformed Fringe. Um, it was a solo episode, so if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. The affirmation here comes in, in, uh, the form of a show called, I think it's called The Reclamation Cast. Um, there are a series of podcasts that have addressed some of the same issues. For those who haven't been following it, which I would assume is probably most of you, the issue is kind of blown up online. Um, Theo Cast, which was a pretty big a, a really big podcast in the, uh, sort of reformed ish, particular Baptist world. Um, they actually split because of this. And so John Moffitt was one of the hosts. Justin Perdue was the other. And then John was also on this show called Reform Fringe with Doug Van Dorn. So I'm affirming some of these other podcasts that have covered the same issue, and I would encourage you to seek them out and listen to them. I can can pull some links together for the show notes today. Um, more or less the, the issue that I identified, um, is beyond just sort of what's known as Divine Counsel Theology, which was made, made, really made popular by, um, Michael Heiser. I don't know that he would, we could say that he was necessarily like the. Architect or inventor of that. I'm sure there are people who've had similar thoughts before that, but he's really the main name. Um, he's passed on now, but, um, Doug Van Dorn was a, uh, he's a Baptist pastor outta Col, uh, Colorado, who took his views and actually sort of like cranked him up and particularly. Uh, troubling is the way he handles, um, the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. Um, I won't go into all of the details, but he wants to argue and he has argued in writing actually, and he, he published the paper first in 2015, and then again in 2024, he published it again, uh, with very minimal changes and nothing substantial. It was really kind of contextual stuff. Um, he actually argues that in the Old Testament, when we see the angel of the Lord, it's not just, not just God appearing as an angel, it's God actually becoming an angel. And in his paper, at least, he argues, um, more or less that this is a sort of hypostatic union. It's not just a temporary taking on of some sort of like outward appearance. Um, it's an actual, uh, uh, assumption of properties into the person of the sun. And the whole reason he makes this argument, which is why it's a little disingenuine, that now he's saying that's not what his argument was. He makes this argument in order to make it so the angel of the Lord can genuinely suffer, experience passions, change his mind, um, enter into covenant, come to know new knowledge, like there's all sorts of things that he wants the angel of the Lord to be able to actually do, not just accommodated, but actually. Experience. Um, and he does that by having the angel of the Lord be an appropriation of angelic properties into the person of the sun, what we would call a hypostatic union. And in his paper, he actually says like, I would want to use all of the same language of, uh, of this union as I do of the incarnation. He intentionally uses the words image and form kind of drawing from Philippians two. So the, the affirmation comes in and there are other podcasts that have identified this. So it's not just me. I would encourage people to go find them. Where the denial comes in is, um, there have been many people, including myself, who have attempted to engage with Doug Van Dorn, like publicly, directly, um, through private messaging. There are many people who've tried to reach out to him, and he has just sort of waved all of them away. Which is one thing, if like you just say like, I don't really care to interact with you. I don't really care to have this discussion. But then he is also presenting the situation as though he, he is totally open to having these conversations and nobody is trying to reach out to him. So I would encourage everyone, you're all reasonable people, search the scriptures, read what he has to say. The paper that he wrote is called Passing the Impassable pa or impassable Impasse, which is hard to say, but it's a very clever title. Um, and it was, it actually was written, I don't know a lot about this controversy and maybe I need to do a little bit more research. It was actually written during a time where, um, the particular Baptist conventions that were out out west where experiencing a lot of internal controversy regarding impassability, and this was his proposal for how, how biblically you can still maintain the divine attributes of changeness and impassability all these things, uh, without compromising the real, the real passable, um, appearance that we see of the, of God in the Bible. So. I don't wanna belabor the point. This is not the point of the show. We, I already did a whole episode on this. I've published, I wrote many blog articles. There's a lot that I've, I've put out on this. Um, so check it out, look at it. Wait for yourself. Um, the only reason I've been, this has come up in our telegram chat. People have encountered this theology. Um, one, one guy was asking about it, 'cause I think like his mom or his aunt or someone close to him had, has been sort of reading Michael Heider's work. Michael Heiser was very instrumental at logos. He was on staff at Logos for quite a while. So a lot of their, um, more speculative theological articles that you might find on their website are written by him. Um, he was a, one of the main people behind the sort of proprietary translation that, um, Laro uses the Lham, um, English Bible. So. It's not a neutral point. Pretty significant theological consequences if, uh, if our reading of what Doug is saying is correct. Um, and there doesn't seem to be any real openness to discussing that. He has to be fair, he has published a series of affirmations and denials, um, affirming his a his orthodoxy saying he affirms the change changeness of the son. He denies that there was a hypothetic union. So that's encouraging. It's great to see that when it comes down to it. He's willing to make affirmations, uh, of orthodox things and to deny unorthodox things, but it doesn't really help the situation when those things and those affirmations, denials are still at very least difficult to reconcile with what he wrote. I think in point of fact, they're actually contradictory to what he wrote. So the, the proper course of action would be for him to say, well, no, that's not what I meant. Or, or, yes, I wrote that, but that's not what I believe. Um, rather than to just try say, trying to say like, well, you all got it wrong. There's a lot of people reading these papers looking at it going, Ooh, it sure seems like the sun took on an angelic nature, even if that was temporary. That's, that's got some pretty weird consequences for your theology. And one of the shows I was listening to made this point that I thought was interesting and a little scary is this is like an utterly new theology. Um, no one that I've talked to who is aware of this, who studied these issues. Is aware of anyone ever saying anywhere that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was some sort of like assumption of actual angelic properties into the person of the sun. Almost everywhere that you read. It's either a manifestation view where the sun is kind of appearing as an angel, um, but it's not actually becoming an angel. It's, it's sort of taking on created medium, uh, in order to reveal himself or an instrumental view, which would be something like there's an angel that is used instrumentally by the Lord, and so we can say that it the angel of the Lord is the Lord in an instrumental sense, kind of like saying like if I pick up a hammer. Use that hammer for as long as I'm using that hammer. The hammer is actually sort of an extension of me. I'm moving it, I'm motivating it, I'm controlling it, it's connected to me, and then I put it down when I'm finished. Those are kind of the two main views that people, people would argue in the Old Testament, if they want to even say that the angel of the Lord is a Christoph, it would either be this manifestation view or this instrumental view, this sort of weird novel assumption of properties view. I'm, I've never encountered anything like that and I've studied this, this, this particular issue at some length. So check out the other episodes, I'll pull together some links, uh, of ones that have done it, both that have been, uh, critical of Doug's position. And also there was one, um, on remnant radio, which I never heard of, but, um, that was acknowledging that there are some question marks, but sort of saying like, this really is an overblown controversy. Um, and then I'll link to Doug's podcast too, so you can listen to his own words and, and sort of think through it yourself. [00:11:51] Jesse Schwamb: Some point I have this volition,...
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Caught in the Net: Living Faithfully Until the Final Sorting
11/21/2025
Caught in the Net: Living Faithfully Until the Final Sorting
In this thought-provoking episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Jesus's parable of the dragnet from Matthew 13:47-50. They examine how this often-overlooked parable reveals profound truths about God's kingdom, final judgment, and the ultimate separation of the righteous from the wicked. The hosts explore the rich Old Testament connections, particularly to Habakkuk, and demonstrate how this parable complements the parable of the wheat and tares while emphasizing the judgment aspect of God's kingdom. Through careful textual analysis and theological reflection, they remind listeners that God's sovereignty extends over both salvation and judgment, challenging believers to live faithfully in light of the coming sorting. Key Takeaways The kingdom of Heaven encompasses both salvation for the righteous and judgment for the wicked - it's not merely about blessing but also includes God's sovereign rule over all outcomes. The dragnet imagery teaches that no one will escape God's judgment - everyone will be gathered and sorted, with no possibility of evasion. Hell is not the "absence of God" but rather experiencing God's presence without His grace - the unmediated wrath of God upon sinners. Jesus's use of fishing and "clean/unclean" imagery connects to Old Testament purity laws, reinforcing the idea that only those cleansed by Christ will be kept. While the parable of the wheat and tares focuses on present patience, the dragnet emphasizes the future judgment and final separation. Old Testament connections, particularly from Habakkuk and Ezekiel, show how God has consistently used "net" imagery to describe His sovereign judgment. Careful meditation on Scripture, especially Jesus's parables, reveals profound theological truths that casual reading might miss. Expanded Explanations The Kingdom Encompasses Both Salvation and Judgment The hosts identify a paradigm-shifting perspective in this parable: the kingdom of Heaven includes not just the blessing of the righteous but also the judgment of the wicked. Tony notes that Christians often think of God's kingdom only in terms of the elect enjoying fellowship with God, but this parable reveals that God's sovereignty and kingship extend to His judgment as well. The dragnet gathers everything in its path - both the "good" and "bad" fish - demonstrating that all people will be brought under Christ's authority for evaluation. This understanding challenges the common notion that hell is somehow outside God's domain. Rather, even the punishment of the wicked falls under God's sovereign reign. This more comprehensive view of God's kingdom reminds believers that God's authority is absolute and extends to every corner of creation and every spiritual reality. The Inescapable Net of God's Judgment Jesse highlights how the specific term "dragnet" (as translated in the LSB) carries significant theological weight. Unlike a typical fishing net cast from a single location, a dragnet was stretched between two boats and systematically pulled toward shore, catching everything in its path. This imagery powerfully communicates that no one will escape God's judgment - the net catches all kinds of fish indiscriminately. The hosts connect this to Old Testament passages, particularly in Habakkuk, where God's judgment is described as a net that captures entire nations. This emphasis on the comprehensive nature of judgment confronts our culture's belief that individuals might somehow avoid accountability before God. The parable teaches that all people will face judgment, with the difference being not whether they are caught in the net, but how they are categorized once caught. For believers, this underscores the necessity of being found "in Christ" when the sorting occurs. Memorable Quotes "Either way, you can't escape the net. This is profound because I think so much of our culture thinks they're gonna escape the net or the nets. They're gonna be able to get outside of the net." - Jesse Schwamb "Hell is the absence of, is the presence of God absent grace, right? Unmediated... It's God's unmediated, absolute entire wrath poured out on wicked sinners. That's what hell is." - Tony Arsenal "We gotta sit down at the table, take our time... Have the family style dinner passed around. Talk to everybody and set aside the time... We're taking our time to enjoy and to savor. And I think you and I are always trying to grow in that to some degree. But here again, we have just a lovely excuse to do a little savoring of the scripture." - Jesse Schwamb Resources Mentioned - The Parable of the Dragnet - Old Testament "net" imagery - God's judgment as a net - Clean and unclean animals The Legacy Standard Bible (LSB) - Recommended Bible translation "The Will of the Many" by James Islington "The Strength of the Few" by James Islington Reformed Brotherhood Telegram Channel - Full Transcript [Full transcript available on our website]
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Counting the Cost, Gaining Everything: The Joy of Kingdom Surrender
11/14/2025
Counting the Cost, Gaining Everything: The Joy of Kingdom Surrender
In this thought-provoking episode, Tony and Jesse delve into Jesus's twin parables of the hidden treasure and the pearl of great price from Matthew 13:44-46. They explore the profound economic metaphor Jesus uses to illustrate the incomparable value of the Kingdom of Heaven. Through careful examination of both parables, they discuss what it means to "count the cost" of following Christ while simultaneously recognizing that no earthly sacrifice can compare to the infinite worth of gaining Christ. The conversation moves between practical application—considering how believers assess value in their spiritual lives—and deeper theological reflections on Christ's perfect sacrifice that makes our entrance into the Kingdom possible in the first place. Key Takeaways The Kingdom of Heaven has such surpassing value that sacrificing everything to obtain it is considered a joyful exchange, not a loss. Both parables show different paths to discovering the Kingdom (unexpected finding vs. intentional seeking), but identical responses: selling everything to obtain the treasure. The parables are not primarily commanding material poverty, but rather illustrating the "sold-outness" required in pursuing the Kingdom of God. Counting the cost of discipleship is not only permissible but necessary to fully appreciate the value of what we gain in Christ. The ultimate treasure we receive in salvation is not merely benefits like eternal life, but God Himself—union with Christ and fellowship with the Trinity. Christ Himself is the one who ultimately fulfills these parables perfectly, giving everything to purchase us as His treasure. The irresistible draw of the Kingdom illustrates how God's grace works in the heart of believers, compelling joyful surrender. Exploring the Incomparable Value of the Kingdom The economic metaphor Jesus employs in these parables is striking—both the hidden treasure and the pearl are deemed so valuable that the discoverers "sell all they have" to obtain them. As Tony and Jesse point out, this transaction reveals something profound about how we should view the Kingdom of Heaven. It's not simply that the Kingdom is valuable; it's that its value so far exceeds anything else we possess that the comparison becomes almost absurd. As Tony notes, "For sure the worth of the kingdom of heaven surpasses anything we could imagine... there's no measure that is satisfying, there's no measure that can actually show us how worthwhile it is." This perspective transforms how we understand sacrifice in the Christian life. When opportunities or comforts are foregone because of our faith, we're not simply losing something—we're experiencing the reality that we've chosen something infinitely more valuable. The parables teach us to view these moments not with regret but with a clearer vision of the treasure we've received in Christ. The Ultimate Prize: God Himself Perhaps the most powerful insight from the discussion is the realization that the ultimate treasure of salvation is not the benefits we receive, but God Himself. As Tony eloquently states: "All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God... we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that." This perspective reshapes how we understand the value proposition of the gospel. It's not merely that we receive eternal life, freedom from suffering, or other benefits—though these are real. The pearl of great price is relationship with God Himself. This helps explain why both men in the parables respond with such dramatic, all-encompassing sacrifice. When we truly grasp what's being offered, nothing seems too great a price to pay. Memorable Quotes "What we get in salvation ultimately is we get God. We get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We get swept up into the life of the Trinity... We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that." — Tony Arsenal "I often say in my own line of work, that cost only matters in the absence of value... it's like at the end of days when we think about the worthiness of our God, that there's no one like him, that he's unequal, that he has no rival, that the gospel is the sweetest message that we're rescued literally from the pit. We'll just say no matter what the cost of us personally, great or small, totally worth it." — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: All of those things are attending gifts. But what we get in salvation ultimately is we get God we get union with God, we get fellowship with Jesus Christ in the, the power of the Holy Spirit. We, we get swept up into the life of the, the God of the universe. Like the life of the Trinity indwells us. And we, we become a part of that. We get swept up into that. We gain the relationship that the son has with the father by nature. We gain that by grace and nothing can compare to that. [00:00:47] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 469 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. [00:00:54] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. [00:00:59] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Discussing the Value of the Kingdom of Heaven [00:01:00] Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of ears to hear, we're back at it again with a whole new, or let's say different parable from our Lord and Savior Jesus. And we've been talking about how really these parables give us this view of the face of heaven through these earthly glasses. And I am pretty interested in our conversation about what's coming up because sometimes we don't like to put too fine a points to our, our point of question to our faith. And in this case, we're gonna get to ask the question, what is it all worth, this kingdom of heaven, this rule and reign of Christ? What is it all about? Who are the beneficiaries of it? And what is it all actually worth? There's a little bit of economics in this, so we're gonna get there. And while we talk and do a little affirming or denying, you should just go ahead write to just skip, go. Do not collect $200 or maybe. Pass, go and collect $200. I dunno. But just go to Matthew chapter 13 and hang out there for just a second. Affirmations and Denials [00:01:58] Jesse Schwamb: But first, I'm always curious to know whenever we talk, are you gonna affirm with something or are you gonna die against something? We've been on a string of lots of affirmations, but I'd like to think that's just because we're fun, loving, optimistic people. But there was a day where we had to do both. And now that I only have to choose one, I do find myself gravitating almost naturally toward the affirming width. But I leave it to you, Tony, are you affirming with or denying against? [00:02:22] Tony Arsenal: I, unfortunately am denying tonight. Technical Issues with Apple Podcasts [00:02:25] Tony Arsenal: So you and I already talked about it a little bit, but uh, I'm denying Apple Podcast Connect. Oh yes. So, uh, I. Obviously, like if you're affected by this, you're not hearing the episode 'cause it's not updating for you. But, uh, if you happen to be using Apple to listen to the podcast and for some reason you're listening somewhere else, maybe you realize that the podcast has not been updating for several weeks. And so you went to a different podcast catcher. Um, apple just decided for some reason that none of our feeds were gonna update. No good reason. So I've got a ticket out to Apple and hopefully we'll get it fixed. Uh, if you do know someone who listens to the show and they use Apple, please tell them to subscribe to something else or to, uh, go to the website. You can get all of the, all of the episodes on our website. You could go to Spotify, you could do something like, uh, overcast or PocketCasts. Um, it really is just Apple. It's, it's the actual account that we use to, uh, to access. Apple's Directory is not pulling new episodes and it's not pulling new episodes on another show that I run as well. So, uh, it's not just this show, it's not our RSS feed. These things happen. It'll, you know, you'll get four or five episodes all at one time. When it, when it corrects itself, usually they're pretty quick. I put in a ticket like late on Friday afternoon, so I didn't expect them to get to it on, uh, Saturday or Sunday. So hopefully by the time you're hearing this, uh, it's resolved. I would hope so, because that means it would be about a week from today. Um, so hopefully they'll have a resolve. But yeah, it's just th thorns and thistles. This is our own, our own, uh, manifestation of the curse here in this little labor that we do. It's, it's thorns and thistles right now, but no big deal. Just, uh, catch up when you can. And, uh, yeah, so denying Apple Podcasts now, really, it's, it's a great service and this is a, a little glitch. It's, it's just a little frustrating. [00:04:20] Jesse Schwamb: The sweat of our brow. Yes. Here it is. We're just toiling over getting Apple to please release our episodes. Well, it'll be your happy day if you use Apple Podcasts and then get a bunch of them all at once. That's fantastic. It's like the gift that is over in abundance. Supporting The Reformed Brotherhood [00:04:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it is a good reminder that you just said, Tony, that everybody should go, just take some time. Head on over to our form brotherhood.com. You can find all the other 400 some odd episodes living over there. And while you're over there and you're perusing or searching by topic to see what we've talked about before, you're probably gonna think to yourself, this is so incredible. How is this compendium, this omnibus of all these episodes just hanging out here free of cost? And I'm so glad you're thinking about that because there are so many lovely brothers and sisters who have decided just to give a little bit to make sure that all that stuff gets hosted for free for you Yeah. And for us, so that anybody can go and explore it and find content that we hope will be edifying. So if that's something you're interested in, maybe you've been listening for a while and thought, you know what? I would like to give a little bit one time or reoccurring, we would love to, for you to join us in that mission. You can go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood, and there's all the information for you to give if that's something that you feel you would like to do, and we would be grateful for you to do it. [00:05:32] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. We, we have a group of people who support the show. They make it possible for your, uh, your ear holes to be filled with our voices. And, uh, but again, you know, the costs are going up all around and, and we would, uh, certainly love to have people partner with us. Um, we've committed to making show that the, making sure that the show is free and available. Um, it's never our intention to put anything behind a paywall or to, to barrier and in that way, but we can only do that if there's people who are supporting the show and making, making sure that we've got the funding that we need to, to keep going. So, thank you to everybody who gives, thank you to anyone who's considering it, uh, and thanking anybody who decides to, uh, jump on board with that. [00:06:11] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. We're appreciative who we really are. [00:06:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So Jesse, what are you affirming or denying today? Exploring Open Webcam DB [00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, this is what I've kind of done before, but I think I've found a new place for it. I just am continually impressed and fall in love with how great and big and lovely God's world is. So I love these types of sites that give you insight into this great big world, even if it's in unexpected places or maybe in strange places. So I'm affirming with a website called Open webcam db.com. Open webcam db.com. And it's exactly like what it sounds like. It's a database that has something like 2000 live cameras streaming daily from over 50 countries, all searchable by a category. So you can find natural landscapes, airports, construction sites, and one of my recent favorites, honestly, and this is. It's so strange, but kind of awesome is this warehouse, it's called Chinese Robotic Warehouse Buzz, and it's just robots moving pallets around or like stacks of all of these items. It's mesmerizing. But I would encourage you go to open webcam db.com, search for like your stage or your country. You'll find so many amazing things. So I've sat and just watched, you know, between tasks or when you know you just need a break or you're just curious about the world. Like I look, I watched the Krakow Maine Market Square quite a bit because it's. Beautiful and brilliant, and to think about the people moving to and fro and what they're doing, what their lives are like. There's some great scenes from San Francisco Bay. There is a bird feeder in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania that I often watch. So of course, like go out as we've said, and live and breathe and be in your own communities. And as well, if you're looking at scratch that itch of just seeing all these different places, all the different things that are happening in God's created world, I can firmly and unreservedly recommend open webcam db.com for that. [00:07:58] Tony Arsenal: Nice, nice, uh, little known fact at one point, Dartmouth Hitchcock, which is the hospital that I worked for, had to block a penguin cam, uh, because it was causing such a productivity drain combined with an actual measurable decrease in internet bandwidth at the hospital. 'cause so many people were watching this little penguin cam at some zoo in Boston. I think it probably was. Yeah, I, I love this kind of stuff. I think this kind of stuff is great. Uh, I use, uh, Dartmouth College has a, like a live one that I use all the time, especially when we're trying to figure out what the weather's gonna do. You can see it on the camera. Uh, we, we often will, you know, see, especially as we get closer to the season when we're talking about traveling to the beach and whatnot, uh, often look at the ocean grove. Oh, that's right. Uh, pier cam. So yeah, check it out. Uh, sounds like a fun time. Do not share it with too many of your friends at work. Or it may crash the network and Yeah. But [00:08:53] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, for [00:08:54] Tony Arsenal: sure. That was a funny email that they had to send out. I remember that [00:08:57] Jesse Schwamb: for sure. Use, use the penguin cam responsibly. I just did a quick search. There are four different penguin cams. Uh, three of them are in the United States, one is in New Zealand, and you better believe I'm gonna be checking those bad boys out. Yes. I didn't even think about. The penguin feature here and penguins are an amazing animal. Like we could stop right now and just shift our topic to penguins if you want to. [00:09:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. ' [00:09:16] Jesse Schwamb: cause there's so much there. And the spiritual truths are so broad and deep, but I just think penguins are kind of undervalued. Birds. Everybody should go check them out. [00:09:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're pretty cool. [00:09:28] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Um, I'm like, I will watch any Penguin documentary and just be astounded by Penguin. Like, whether they're Emperor Penguins or South African Penguin, wherever. I just think they're phenomenal and hilarious and seem to be living the dream. And he doesn't want a little bit of that. [00:09:46] Tony Arsenal: You just gotta get Morgan Freeman to do the voiceover in any documentary or, or nature documentary is better with Morgan Freeman doing the voiceover. [00:09:55] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I all, this might be a deep cut real quick, but I just learned this, and I'm guessing some of our listening brothers and sisters probably already know this. Maybe you do too, Tony. So, Benedict Cumberbatch, do you know where I'm going with this? Yep, [00:10:06] Tony Arsenal: yep. Pen wing. [00:10:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I didn't. I cannot say that word or stumbles over its pronunciation. He did some kind of big documentary in which Penguins played at least some part. Yeah. And they were in an interview. They were giving him such a hard time because they played his reading of it like within the same kind of five minutes. And his, the word just kept degenerating in his mouth every time he said it. So it became like almost undistinguishable from the actual word. And it's like initial pronunciation. It was so hilarious. Apparently it's a big joke on the internet and I just didn't know it. [00:10:38] Tony Arsenal: Especially for someone like Bent Cumberbatch who just is, uh, like he's a world-class voice actor. [00:10:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And like a super smart ude guy and he just can't say the word penguin and penguin. Yeah. [00:10:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. He said, you got everybody go look it up. 'cause it is super hilarious. And now it's kind of gotten stuck in my head. But um, again, this suddenly became like the All Penguin episode all of a sudden. [00:11:01] Tony Arsenal: I mean like, he can pronounce his own last name just fine, but the word penguin escapes him. I like to call 'em blueberry crumble bottom or whatever. Crumble bunch. [00:11:11] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, see that's the good stuff right there. That's what everybody we know. This is what you all tune in for. This is what you're missing when Apple Podcast doesn't send everything out on time. Yeah. You're welcome. [00:11:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. The Parable of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl [00:11:23] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, why don't we, why don't we get into it? Because you know it, it's interesting. Let's [00:11:27] Jesse Schwamb: get into it. [00:11:28] Tony Arsenal: Well, it's interesting because when you, you know, you kind of, we, we sort of do the little lead to the episode and I, I suddenly realized that I think I've been interpreting this parable very differently than maybe you have or other people. Great. Do, uh, because I, I think I, I think I might have a different take on it. Let, let's do it. Yeah. So let's get into it. Uh, do you have the, the text in friend you wanna read? Uh, why don't we just do 44 all the way through 46? We'll do both parables in one reading. We'll come back and talk about it. [00:11:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Sorry, everybody. So here's a two for one for you. Beginning in where we're in verse 44 of Matthew chapter 13. This is Jesus speaking. The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy, he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field again. The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it. Interpreting the Parables [00:12:22] Tony Arsenal: I think maybe this is the, like the beauty of parables, uh, when Christ doesn't give us a interpretation. I, I think we're, we're, we're not free to like make up whatever we want, but these kinds of teaching tools are useful because the fact that there can be multiple interpretations actually is, is probably intentional. [00:12:43] Jesse Schwamb: Right. [00:12:43] Tony Arsenal: So it's funny because I think when you intro the episode here, it sounds like you're going to the kingdom of Heaven being a treasure hidden in a field, being something that we should sell everything we have and go after. And when I read this, I read it as the kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure hidden a field. And the man who is Jesus goes and sells all that. He has. He gives all that he has and buys the field. So, and I, I think this is one of those ones where like. Probably both...
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When Weakness Becomes Strength: Finding Hope in the Quiet Work of God's Kingdom
11/07/2025
When Weakness Becomes Strength: Finding Hope in the Quiet Work of God's Kingdom
In this illuminating episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse and Tony explore Jesus' parables of the mustard seed and leaven found in Matthew 13. These seemingly simple parables reveal profound truths about God's kingdom—how it begins imperceptibly, grows irresistibly, and transforms completely. The hosts delve into what these parables teach us about God's sovereign work in both our individual spiritual lives and the broader advance of His kingdom in the world. Believers can find hope in understanding that God intentionally works through what appears weak and insignificant to accomplish His purposes. This episode offers practical encouragement for Christians who may feel discouraged by the apparent smallness of their faith or ministry impact. Key Takeaways The kingdom of heaven begins in small, hidden, or seemingly insignificant ways, but grows powerfully through God's sovereign work. The mustard seed illustrates the kingdom's visible expansion (extensive growth), while the leaven highlights its internal transformative influence (intensive growth). Both parables emphasize that God's kingdom often appears to "disappear" initially but produces outsized results through His work, not our own. These parables provide encouragement for times when the church feels weak or our personal faith feels insufficient—God's power is made perfect in weakness. God's kingdom transforms both outwardly (extensive growth illustrated by the mustard seed) and inwardly (intensive growth shown by the leaven). Cultural transformation happens most effectively through ordinary Christian faithfulness rather than flashy or provocative engagement. Christians should not despise small beginnings, recognizing that faithfulness rather than visibility is the true measure of fruitfulness. Understanding Kingdom Growth: From Imperceptible to Unstoppable The parables of the mustard seed and leaven powerfully illustrate the paradoxical nature of God's kingdom. In both cases, something tiny and seemingly insignificant produces results far beyond what anyone would expect. As Tony noted in the discussion, what's critical is understanding the full comparison Jesus makes—the kingdom isn't simply like a seed or leaven in isolation, but like the entire process of planting and growth. Both parables involve something that initially "disappears" from sight (the seed buried in soil, the leaven mixed into dough) before producing its effect. This reflects the upside-down nature of God's kingdom work, where what appears weak becomes the channel of divine power. For first-century Jewish listeners expecting a triumphant, militaristic Messiah, Jesus' description of the kingdom as beginning small would have seemed offensive or disappointing. Yet this is precisely God's pattern—beginning with what appears weak to demonstrate His sovereign power. This same pattern is evident in the incarnation itself, where God's kingdom arrived not through military conquest but through a humble birth and ultimately through the cross. Finding Hope When Faith Feels Small One of the most practical applications from these parables is the encouragement they offer when we feel our faith is insufficient or when the church appears weak. As Jesse noted, "God is always working. Even when we don't feel or see that He is, He's always working." The kingdom of God advances not through human strength or visibility but through God's sovereign work. These parables remind us that spiritual growth often happens imperceptibly—like bread rising or a seed growing. We may go through seasons where our spiritual life feels dry or stagnant, yet God continues His sanctifying work. Just as a baker must be patient while bread rises, we must trust the invisible work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the church. When we feel discouraged by apparent lack of progress, these parables assure us that God's kingdom—both in our hearts and in the world—is advancing according to His perfect timing and plan. As Tony explained, "The fact that it feels and looks and may actually be very small does not rob it of its power...in actuality that smallness is its power." God deliberately works through weakness to display His glory, making these parables powerful reminders for believers in any era who may feel their impact is too small to matter. Memorable Quotes "We shouldn't despise small beginnings. Let's not despise whatever it is that you're doing in service to God, to your family, to your churches, especially in the proclamation of the gospel... Faithfulness and not visibility—that's the measure of fruitfulness." — Jesse Schwamb "The Kingdom of Heaven is at work not only in our midst as a corporate body, but in each of us as well. God's grace and His special providence and His spirit of sanctification, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of holiness and the one who makes us holy. He is doing that whether it feels like it or not, whether we see outward progress or not." — Tony Arsenal "What cultural transformation looks like is a man who gets married and loves his wife well, serves her and sacrifices for her, and makes a bunch of babies and brings them to church... We transform culture by being honest, having integrity, by working hard... without a lot of fanfare, without seeking a lot of accolades." — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 468 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother, you and I have said it over and over again. One of the incredible truths that the Bible conveys about the kingdom of God is that it's inaugurated in weakness. It's hidden. It advances irresistibly by the sovereign work of God through the Word and the Spirit. It transforms both individuals and nations until Christ's reign is fully revealed in glory. And so as we're about to talk about parables today, I can't help but think if that's one of the central positions of the Bible, and I think we both say it is how would you communicate that? And here we find Jesus, the son of God, our great savior, you know where he goes. He goes, mustard seeds and yeast. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. And if you're just joining us maybe for the first time or you're jumping into this little series, which is to say, we do know tiny series, this long series on parables, you, I go back to the last episode, which is kind of a two-parter because Tony and I tried this experiment where we basically each separately recorded our own thoughts and conversation, almost an inner monologue as we digested each of those parables, both the one of the mustard seed and then the leaven sequentially and separately. And now we're coming together in this episode to kind of talk about it together and to see what we thought of the individual work and to bring it all together in this grand conversation about the kingdom of God that's inaugurated and weakness and hiddenness. [00:02:31] Affirmations and Denials Explained Jesse Schwamb: So that's this episode, but it wouldn't be a episode without a little affirming. And a little denying it seems, 22, we should this, every now and again we pause to say why we do the affirmations and denials. Why, why do we do this? What, what is this whole thing? Why are we bringing it into our little conversation every time? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, it, it, at its core, it's kind of like a recommendation or an anti recommendation segment. We take something that we like or we don't like and we spend a little bit of time talking about it. Usually it ends up taking a little bit of a theological bent just 'cause that's who we are and that's what we do. And we use the language of affirmations and denials, uh, because that's classic, like reformed confessional language. Right? If you look at something like the, um. I dunno, like the Chicago statement on Biblical and Errancy, which was primarily written by RC sprawl, um, it usually has a, a statement, uh, of doctrine in the form of things that we affirm and things that we deny. Um, or you look at someone like Turin, a lot of times in his, uh, institutes of elected theology. He'll have something like, we affirm this with the Lutherans, or we affirm that or de deny that against the papus or something like that. So it's just a, a little bit of a fun gimmick that we've added on top of this to sort of give it a little bit of its own reformed flavor, uh, onto something that's otherwise somewhat, um, Baal or, or I don't know, sort of vanilla. So we like it. It's a good chance for us to chat, kind of timestamps the episode with where we are in time. And usually, usually, like I said, we end up with something sort of theological out of it. 'cause that's, that's just the nature of us and that's, that's the way it goes. That's, and that's what happens, like when we're talking about stuff we. Like when we're together at Christmas or at the beach, like things take that theological shift because that's just who, who we are, and that's what we're thinking about. Jesse Schwamb: By the way, that sounds like a new CBS drama coming this fall. The nature of us. Tony Arsenal: The nature of us? Yeah. Or like a, like a hallmark channel. Jesse Schwamb: It does, uh, Tony Arsenal: it's like a a, I'm picturing like the, the big city girl who moves out to take a job as a journalist in like Yosemite and falls in love with the park ranger and it's called The Nature of Us. Jesse Schwamb: The nature of us Yes. Coming this fall to CBS 9:00 PM on Thursdays. Yeah. I love it. Well, this is our homage to that great theological tradition of the affirming with, or the denying against. So what do you got this week? Are you affirming with something or you denying against something? [00:04:55] No Quarters November Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming. This is a little cheeky. I'm not gonna throw too much, much, uh, too much explanation. Uh, along with it. I'm affirming something. I'm calling no quarters, November. So, you know, normally I'm very careful to use quarters. I'm very careful to make sure that I'm, I'm saving them and using them appropriately. And for the month of November, I'm just not gonna use any quarters. So there'll be no 25 cent pieces in my banking inventory for the month. Oh. So I'm, I'm making a little bit of fun. Of course. Obviously no, quarter November is a tradition that Doug Wilson does, where he just is even more of a jerk than he usually is. Um, and he, he paints it in language that, like, normally I'm very careful and I qualify everything and I have all sorts of nuance. But in November, I'm just gonna be a bull in a China shop, um, as though he's not already just a bull in a China shop 95% of the time. So I'm affirming no corridors. November maybe. No corners November. Everything should be rounded. Jesse Schwamb: That's good too. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. No, no. Quatro November. Like we don't do anything in Spanish. No fours in Spanish. I don't know. Okay. I'm just making fun of that. I'm just making fun of the whole thing. It's such a silly, dumb enterprise. There's nothing I can do except to make fun of it. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's fair. That's basically the response it deserves. This time, we, we brought it up for several years going, it's such a strange thing. [00:06:13] Critique of Doug Wilson's Approach Jesse Schwamb: It's hard not to see this thing as complete liberty to be sinful and then to acknowledge that. Yeah. As if somehow that gives you, reinforces that liberty that you're taking it, it's so strange. It's as if like, this is what is necessary and probably we'll get to this actually, but this is what is necessary for like the gospel or the kingdom of God to go forward is that kind of attitude at times. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I will say this, I do always look forward every year to seeing what he sets on fire. 'cause the, the videos are pretty great. I'm not gonna lie. Like the video quality is, is certainly compelling. Um, and you could say it's lit is another little punny way to get at it. Uh, I, I haven't seen it this year. I mean, that's, we're recording this on November 1st, so I'm sure that it's out. Uh, I just haven't seen it yet. But yeah, I mean, it's kind of, kind of ridiculous, uh, that anyone believes that Doug Wilson is restraining himself or engaging in lots of fine distinctions and nuance. You know, like the rest of the year and November is the time that he really like holds back, uh, or really doesn't hold back. That's, that's just a silly, it's just a silly gimmick. It's a silly, like, I dunno, it's a gimmick and it's dumb and so I'm gonna make fun of it 'cause that's what it deserves. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think that's right. You know, I was thinking recently because as you said, the counter just rolled over. And generally this time of year I end up always watching that documentary that Ligonier put together on Martin Luther, which is quite good. And I think it does, has a fair treatment of him, including the fact that he was so bombastic and that he was very caustic with his language. And I think they treat that fairly by saying, oh, that some of the same things that we admire in somebody can be some of the very same things which pull them into sinful behavior. And there's no excuse for that. And, and, and if that's true for him, then it's true for all of us, of course. And it's definitely true for Luther. So I think this idea, we need to be guarding our tongues all the time and to just make up some excuse to say, I'm not gonna do that. And in some way implying that there's some kind of hidden. Piety in that is what I think is just so disturbing. And I think most of us see through that for what exactly it is. It's clickbaits. It's this idea of trying to draw attention by being bombastic and literally setting things on fire. Like the video where he sets the boat on fire is crazy because all I can think of is like, so if you judge me, one more thing on this, Tony, 'cause I, I, when you said that, I thought about this video, the boat video implicitly, and I've thought about this a lot since then. There's a clip of him, he sets the boat on fire and it's kind of like him sitting on the boat that is engulfed in flames looking out into the sea, so, so calmly as if it's like an embodiment of that mean this is fine, everything is fine, this is fine. Right? Yeah. And all I can think of is that was great for probably like the two seconds that somebody filmed that, but guess what happened immediately after that? Somebody rescued you by putting out the fire on the boat. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: It's just like insanity to presume that, encapsulating that single moment and somehow conveying that he is a great champion, pioneer advocate of things of the gospel by essentially coming in and disrupting and being caustic and that him setting thing on fire makes everything better is a mockery, because that's not even exactly how that shoot took place. Yeah. So I, I just really struggle with that, with the perspective he is trying to bring forward. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I'm dubious whether or not there was actually any fire involved. Well, that's, I think 95% of it is probably camera magic, which is fine. Like, I don't know. That's fine. Like, I don't want Doug Wilson to burn up. That's, that wouldn't be cool either. But, um, yeah, I mean, like the fruit of the spirit is love, joy piece patience, kindness, good as gentleness, setting things on fire and being a jerk in November, apparently. And I, I just don't, I, I've never fully understood the argument. Um, and this is coming from someone who can be sarcastic and can go over the top and go too far. And, and I recognize that about myself. I've just never understood the argument that like, it's okay to be a jerk sometimes. Or, or not even just, okay. It's necessary to be a jerk sometimes. Exactly. Um, there's a difference between boldness and being a jerk. And, you know, I think, um, the people who, who know me well are gonna like fall off their chairs. I say this like, Michael Foster is actually someone who I think. Does the boldness with a little bit of an edge. I think he actually does it really well. And just like all of us, I, you know, he, he probably goes over the line, uh, on occasion. Um, and, and, but I think he does the, I'm just going to be direct and straightforward and bold. And sometimes that might offend you because sometimes the truth is offensive. Um, I think he does that well. I think where we go sideways is when we try to couch everything in sort of this offensive posture, right? Where, where even the things that shouldn't be offensive, uh, somehow need to be made offensive. It, it's just, it's dumb. It's just, um, and I'm, I'm not saying we should be nice just for the sake of being nice. I think sometimes being nice is. When I say nice, I mean like saccharin sweet, like, like overly uh, I don't know, like sappy sweets. Like we don't have to be that. And uh, there are times where it's not even appropriate to be that. Um, but that's different than just, you know, it's almost like the same error in the wrong direction, right? To be, just to be a jerk all the time. Sometimes our words and our behavior and our actions have to have a hard edge. And sometimes that's going to offend people because sometimes the truth, especially the gospel truth is offensive. Um, but when what you're known for is being a jerk and being rude and just being offensive for the sake of being offensive. Um, right. And, and I'll even say this, and this will be the last thing I say. 'cause I didn't, I, I really intend this just to be like a, a jokey joke. No quarters, November. I'm not gonna spend any quarters. Um, I don't know why I was foolish enough to think we weren't gonna get into it, but, um. When your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk. Even if that isn't true, it tells you that something is wrong with the way you're doing things. Right. Because I think there are times where, and I'll say this to be charitable, there are times where Doug Wilson says something with a little bit of an edge, and people make way too big of a deal out of it. Like they, they go over the top and try to condemn it, and they, they make everything like the worst possible offense. And sometimes, sometimes it's, it's just not. Um, and there are even times where Doug says things that are winsome and they're helpful and, um, but, but when your reputation is that you are a jerk just to be a jerk, or that you are inflammatory just to get a reaction, um, there's something wrong with your approach. And then to top it off, when you claim that for November, like you explicitly claim that identity as though that's not already kind of your shtick the rest of the year. Um, and just, it's just. Frustrating and dumb and you know, this is the guy that like, is like planting a church in DC and is like going on cnn. It's just really frustrating to see that sort of the worst that the reformed world has to offer in terms of the way we interact with people sometimes is getting the most attention. So, right. Anyway, don't, don't be a pirate. N November is still my way. I celebrate and, uh, yeah, that's, that's that. Jesse Schwamb: That's well said. Again, all things we're thinking about because we all have tendency to be that person from time to time. So I think it's important for us to be reminded that the gospel doesn't belong to us. So that means like that sharp edge, that conviction belongs to Christ, not to our personalities. So if it's tilted toward our personalities, even toward our communication style, then it means that we are acting in sin. And so it's hard for us to see that sometimes. So it does take somebody to say, whoa. Back it down a little bit there and you may need to process. Well, I'm trying to communicate and convey this particular truth. Well, again, the objective that we had before us is always...
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Small Yet Mighty: The Quiet Power of Christ's Kingdom in Matthew 13
10/31/2025
Small Yet Mighty: The Quiet Power of Christ's Kingdom in Matthew 13
In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal explores Jesus' parable of the leaven from Matthew 13:33, revealing profound insights about the nature of God's kingdom on earth. This short but powerful parable illustrates how the kingdom of heaven operates not through outward glory or conquest, but as a hidden, transformative influence throughout the world. Tony examines how this parable connects thematically with other parables in Matthew 13, showing that believers are called to be like leaven - seemingly small and hidden, yet profoundly impacting the entire "loaf" of society. This teaching offers a refreshing perspective on how Christians can understand their role in the world and how God's redemptive purposes work through His people. Key Takeaways The kingdom of heaven operates not through outward glory but as a hidden, transformative influence in the world Just as leaven permeates an entire batch of dough, Christians are called to influence the whole world around them The parable of leaven shares thematic connections with the parables of the sower and the wheat and tares in Matthew 13 God preserves the world (the "whole loaf") because of His redemptive purposes for those within it The seemingly small presence of believers in the world has a disproportionate impact, similar to how a small amount of leaven affects a large amount of flour Common grace benefits both believers and unbelievers as part of God's redemptive plan The church may not always appear dominant in society, but its influence continues to work invisibly and powerfully Understanding the Parable of Leaven The parable in Matthew 13:33 is deceptively simple: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour till it was all leavened." Tony notes that just as leaven is often the same color as flour but with a different texture, and just as a small amount can affect an entire batch, the kingdom of heaven may seem small and unassuming in the world, yet its influence permeates everything around it. This parable teaches us that God's kingdom doesn't operate through visible conquest or outward glory. Rather, it works quietly from within, transforming the whole of society as believers live out their faith in various contexts - whether at work, with family, or in other relationships. The impact of the kingdom, like leaven, is not always immediately visible but ultimately transforms everything it touches. The Kingdom's Hidden Presence This parable helps us understand that while the church may not always be the dominant visible institution in the world, its influence continues to work powerfully. Tony explains how this connects with the parable of the wheat and tares, where both grow together until the harvest. Similarly, the kingdom of heaven is present within the world, often hidden from plain sight but still exerting tremendous influence. This perspective counters triumphalistic views that expect Christianity to always visibly dominate culture, while also rejecting defeatist attitudes that minimize the church's impact. Instead, it offers a balanced understanding that even when believers are in the minority, they serve as God's means of leavening the whole of society with kingdom values and influence. Memorable Quotes "We should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests, accoutrements or accolades." "As we go into our workday, as we interact with our family, whether that's our immediate family, our wives or children, our parents, or it's our extended family, some of whom may not even know Christ, as we interact with our fellow Christians in the church or online, as we interact with unbelievers online, we are to be like leaven that is hidden in the flower and our presence in the flower, our presence in the world actually leavens the whole world." "If it were not for God's intent and desire to save a remnant from fallen humanity, if it was not for the covenant of redemption in which the father, son and the spirit pacted together to redeem a people for their very own, God would've had no reason not to just destroy the whole thing and start over. But because he has seen fit to redeem out of the fallen whole, a portion, he is leavening the whole with that portion." Full Transcript we should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests accoutrements or accolades. [00:00:21] Introduction and Experiment Setup Welcome back to episode 467 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Tony and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters, if you are joining us for this second part of, uh, episode 467, any of you have not listened to Jesse's contribution, then you are like me. I also have not listened to Jesse's contribution yet, but, uh, you should go back and listen because, uh, we're doing a fun little experiment this week, Jesse and I. Our schedules didn't quite line up, so we thought we would do something interesting. [00:01:03] Exploring the Parables of Christ Uh, we've been working through the parables of Christ, which has been an absolute joy, and we come to these two sort of little micro parables that, um, commentators and editors often clump together. And Justin and I thought it would be a fun experiment for us each two separately talk about, uh, one of the parables. Uh, and then next week, uh, we're gonna come back together and we will probably talk through all of it after we've had some chances to, uh, process and marinate in it a little bit. We thought it'd be fun to see kind of how the two episodes gel together or don't gel together, uh, when uh, we have not talked about it and did not record together. So I'm gonna go ahead and kick off. I don't know if Jesse did affirmations or denials. I don't know what Jesse did. I, all I know is he recorded an episode and I'm sure that it's amazing. Uh, but I'm just gonna go ahead and kick off right into the, uh, the. Uh, reading here. So we're looking at Matthew chapter 13. Uh, we've spent our entire time in this series so far in Matthew chapter 13, and I'm gonna pick it up at verse 33. It reads here, he told them another parable. The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, that a woman took and hid in three measures of flower till it was all leavened. Now this is a short parable. Uh, it's, it's pretty straightforward. And this episode will be a little bit shorter. I don't know how long Jesse went. I mean, I, I guess I kind of have an idea 'cause I edited the, uh, episode, but I dunno how long you went. So I'm gonna keep this short and sweet and we're gonna talk more about all of this next week. So I just wanna share a few observations with you first. I think it's important for us to sort of recognize that. Matthew as the inspired, uh, writer of this, uh, gospel and in some ways, uh, as an inspired compiler and editor of Christ's public Ministry. Right. He's writing the gospel, but he's also a witness to the events. He is probably, um, ordering things in particular ways to make a theological point. Christ probably also taught this same message multiple times in multiple venues, so there's nothing shady or a historical going on. Um, but Matthew is. Putting together these, uh, counts and particularly these parables, which probably were all given at the same time. Um, Christ probably deliver them all at the same time as well. And there's some good reasons in the text to think that. But these parables all fall within the context of each other. So when we talked about the parable of, uh, the soils, um, or the parable of the sower, we, we recognize, um, that the kingdom of heaven is not as obvious as we would think, right? The sower sows the seed, um, he sows it promiscuously a across various different kinds of soils, fully knowing that some of it will not be receptive. And then of course, we saw the outcome. And then when we looked at the parable of the weed, weed, uh, wheat and the tears, uh, we see that, you know, the, the good sower recognizes that the wheat and the weed will grow up next to each other, and that at the end of all things, he will separate those things and will, you know, destroy the wicked and will reward the righteous. And an interesting feature of this chapter is that Christ often tells a parable, and then there's either some commentary, or in this case today, there's actually additional parables in sort of inserted, and then Christ gives the, uh, interpretation of the parable. So the, the parable of the mustard seed immediately follows in the parable of the 11, kind of considering those together. Immediately follows the parable of, uh, the explanation, or no, sorry, the parable of, um, the weed and the weeds. And so he gives us this parable right in the middle there. Then he gives us a little explanation and a second, you know, explanation of why he speaks in parables. And then he goes on to interpret and. There's a, a technique that was often used in ancient text, in ancient documents called an iuso, where they would start an account. Uh, they would start sort of a literary segment with, um, a phrase or a concept. Then they would explain, you know, they would give all their explanation and then they would close that same section with a similar theme or a similar, um, kind of, um, concept. We see this in Luke, right? We see at the beginning of Luke. There's a statement that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature. Then we see the, um, the account of Jesus in the temple. And then we see again at the end of that, it says again, he grew in wisdom and stature. And so Luke, there is telling us that we should read that whole section, that whole area as a, a single unit. And the theme of that unit is Jesus growing in, um, wisdom and stature. A similar thing is happening here. So we have the, the parable of the sower. We have some commentary, then we have the interpretation of the parable of sower. Then we have the parable of the wheat and the tears, and then we have this in the middle, the parable of the weed of the, um, mustard seed and the lemon. And then we have the explanation or the interpretation of the parable of the wheat and the tears. So we should see this parable as part of that literary unit. That's, that's what Matthew is doing here. So we have to interpret it in light of that. [00:06:17] The Kingdom of Heaven and Its Implications And so what do we see in the first, uh, parable that we talked about? Well, we see that the kingdom of heaven is, uh, is sort of hidden within the world. We see that God sows or the, the good sower sows his seed. The master of the household sows his good seed into the world. The field is the world and it starts to grow, and then the enemy comes and he sows his seed into the world, and that starts to grow. And until the end of things, um, the good weeds, the good wheat is sort of hidden among the weeds just as the weed is hidden among the good wheat, the, the parable of the mustard seed, um, Jesse, I'm sure explain. We'll find out. Um, explain that the, the mustard seed is small. And so when it's planted into the garden, it becomes kind of hidden and it's an unexpected, um, influence on the, the rest of the garden. Not only does it grow, but it becomes, uh, it becomes a central feature of the garden. Uh, it gives shade to things. It, you know, birds come and live in it. Um. It becomes a central feature in an unexpected way. And the Parable of 11 is, in my opinion, is really just a restatement in some ways of the parable of, uh, the wheat and the tears. It says the kingdom of heaven is like 11 that the woman took and hid. In three measures of flour till it was all lemon. So Jesse could tell you more about baking bread than I could. Uh, he, he probably would've been better to give you this parable and, and if we did any sort of planning at all, we would've thought about that, but. Lemon is often, um, the same color as flour. Um, it's a different texture as flour, but it takes just a very small amount of it in a large portion of flour or bread dough or whatever you're putting into to then permeate and affect the whole thing. So you might have, you might have a pound of flour. Um, or in this case, three measures of flour, which I, I don't know off the top of my head how much that is. Um, my logos Bible software is, is not helping me all that much here. But you may have a, a large quantity of flour, say a pound of flour, you might put just a few, um, a few grams into that flour, and once you've mixed it all up. Even though that lemon, uh, that lemon is, is at a much lower ratio than the flour, it still affects the entire, the entire outcome and the entire loaf of that, uh, bread that you're making. So, in one sense, what Christ is saying is that the kingdom of heaven, uh, it's it's small. It's, it's unassuming. It is hidden in this broader bunch, just like the wheat is in the good field. Um, it's hidden in the good field in that when you first, you first sow it, you don't see it. And as it starts to grow alongside the weeds, it's hidden among the weeds just as the weeds are hidden among the weeds because you can't tell the difference. In this case, the lemon is, is hidden among the measures of flower, and that's what the kingdom of heaven is like. And so we should look at this parable and think about how the kingdom of heaven on this earth is not going to be about outward glory. It's not gonna be about outward conquests or outward, um, accoutrements or accolades. Um, it certainly should be visible, right? Christ also says that, uh, the kingdom of heaven is like a city on a hill, and we'll get to that when we get to that, or we'll talk about that at some point. But it's not as though this parable is saying The kingdom of heaven should be invisible. But it's not, um, it's not going to be the dominant outward force in the world, just as the wheat in the first parable we talk, or in the second parable we talked about is not gonna be outwardly, uh, visible and apparent. Um, but it's still present in the world and it's still. Part of the reason that the master retains the field instead of just burning it over. If, um, if we saw that an entire loaf was ruined, we'd throw it away. But because the leaven is present in the loaf or it's present in the three measures, it, it permeates that. And the second thing that I think that we should think about, uh, and this will be where I close here, is the kingdom of heaven is, um, is not an, an inert force in the world. Even though it's not going to be outwardly dominant, dominant, it's not going to be the primary, uh, visible institution in the world. Um, it, it certainly has been at points if, if you equate the. The visible church with the Kingdom of Heaven, which our tradition certainly does to a certain extent, but regardless of how present or hidden it, it visually appears and how apparent it is, it still is leavening the whole loaf. So when we read passages like God so loved the world, we don't have to do exegetical gymnastics to try to say, well, God so loved part of the world, or the world only means the elect. We can say without, you know, crossing our fingers or talking outta both sides of our mouth, that God loved the world, the whole world, but part of the reason he loved the whole world is because. One, he created it. But his love for the world in that passage and his sending of the sun is a particular love for the whole world. On the account of all of those who would believe so the, the, the parable here, just like the parable of the weeds. Or maybe as an extension of the parable of the wheat and the tears is teaching us that Christians, particularly the sons of the Kingdom, to use the language from the, the parable of the wheat, the sons of the Kingdom of God are hidden among the world. And just as we are commanded to be salt and light earlier in the gospel, here we are to leaven the whole world. So as we go into our workday, honestly, I'm sitting in my office at work recording this episode right now 'cause it's the most quiet place I can get. Um. As we go into our workday, as we interact with our family, whether that's our immediate family, our wives or children, our parents, or it's our extended family, some of whom may not even know Christ as we interact with our, our fellow Christians in the church or on online. As we interact with unbelievers online, we are to be like leaven that is hidden in the flower and our presence in the flower. Our presence in the world actually leavens the whole world if it were not for God's intent and desire to save a remnant from fallen humanity. It was not for the covenant of redemption in which the father, son and the spirit, uh, pacted together to redeem a people for their very own. If it were not for that, God would've had no reason, would have no reason not to just destroy the whole thing and start over. But because he has seen fit to redeem. Out of the fallen hole, a portion he is leavening the hole with that portion. So I'm obviously not arguing for some kind of universal salvation, but the the common grace that the fact that the rain falls on the just and the unjust or the fact that we all have air to breathe and there's food to eat and that. Uh, evil is restrained, uh, to a certain extent and, and that, um, the good things in life are preserved and that even, even the unbelievers can experience good and pleasurable things like marriage and good food and drink and, and other, um, common grace pleasures that God has provided. All of that is on account of, and because of his desire to redeem the whole, to have a kingdom of God on Earth. So I'm gonna leave you there and it'll be an interesting, fun experiment once these, uh, two dueling episodes come out to, to compare notes and to see how close Jesse and I. Are in interpreting these and where we overlap and where we may even disagree. And we will come back next week and see, uh, where we go when we start to discuss the two together. So thank you for bearing with us with this sort of interesting, unorthodox experiment. I hope that you've enjoyed this, and until next time, honor everyone. Love that brotherhood.
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The Theology of the Ordinary: How Jesus Reveals God's Kingdom Through Mustard Seeds
10/31/2025
The Theology of the Ordinary: How Jesus Reveals God's Kingdom Through Mustard Seeds
In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Jesse Schwamb explores Jesus' parable of the mustard seed from Matthew 13. The seemingly insignificant mustard seed grows into a mighty tree, providing a profound metaphor for God's kingdom—beginning in humble, ordinary ways yet expanding to glorious fulfillment. Jesse unpacks how this parable challenges our expectations of power and glory, revealing that God intentionally works through what appears small and insignificant to manifest His mighty power. This episode offers a meditation on God's kingdom, which operates contrary to human expectations, growing unstoppably between Christ's first and second comings despite opposition, and ultimately providing shelter for all nations. Key Takeaways The kingdom of God begins with something small and seemingly insignificant (a mustard seed) yet grows to become greater than all garden plants Jesus deliberately uses ordinary, humble elements to describe God's kingdom, contrasting with human expectations of power and glory The theology of the cross consistently looks to normal, ordinary means rather than what people perceive as great and powerful There is significant growth of God's kingdom between Christ's first advent and His eventual return God's kingdom cannot be stopped by opposition; attempts to destroy it actually facilitate its growth Biblical meditation on Jesus' parables is essential for deeper understanding and application The parable connects to Old Testament imagery (particularly in Daniel and Ezekiel) where trees represent kingdoms The Theology of Ordinary Means The parable of the mustard seed demonstrates what Jesse refers to as "the theology of the cross" versus "the theology of glory." God consistently chooses to work through what appears weak, small, and insignificant rather than through impressive displays of worldly power. As Jesse explains, "The theology of Cross is always looking to these normal, ordinary insignificant things. It's God's stacking the deck against himself to show his great power that he works not... in the circumstance of what people perceive to be great and powerful, but the exact opposite." This approach reveals God's sovereignty—He needs no human advantage, political power, or military might to accomplish His purposes. The kingdom that began with Jesus' seemingly humble first advent will culminate in His glorious return, showing that God's power is made perfect in weakness. The Unstoppable Growth of God's Kingdom One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it portrays the inevitability of the kingdom's growth. Just as a mustard seed inevitably grows into a tree according to its nature, God's kingdom advances despite opposition. Jesse notes how throughout history, attempts to destroy Christianity have always failed: "History is replete with those... who have tried in their own way to silence God, to destroy the scriptures or to somehow eradicate Christianity. And of course, history will be filled up with all of their failures." Even the martyrdom of Stephen in the early church, which seemed like a defeat, actually caused the gospel to spread beyond Jerusalem as believers were scattered. This illustrates Jesus' promise that "the gates of hell will not prevail against his church" (Matthew 16:18). The kingdom continues to grow by God's power until its final consummation when Christ returns. Memorable Quotes "The humble inauguration was not a mistake. This is planned by God and it is for his great purpose. It shows His great power, his love for his people, and the ordinary way in which he brings about all of these things." - Jesse Schwamb "This unassuming seed, which God plants, continues to grow by his power, his volition, his sustenance, until it takes over all things." - Jesse Schwamb "The one who took on flesh and was born in a humble state will return in splendor and judgment to consummate this kingdom." - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript the theology of Cross is always looking to these. Normal, ordinary insignificant things. It's, God's stacking the deck against himself to show his great power that he works not with great po, not in the circumstance of what people perceive us to be. Great and powerful, but the exact opposite. Welcome to episode 467 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brothers and sisters. Well, we're back at it again. [00:00:48] Exploring the Kingdom of God Through Parables On this episode, we're talking about seeds and leave. In what other ways would Jesus describe the kingdom of God? And we're gonna get to all of that, but in a slightly different format. Something special for everybody on this episode. It may have noticed that. Right at the top. Tony is missing, but fear not. He's still here. We're doing something different on this episode and that is we're gonna speak about the kingdom of God as Jesus describes it in parable form with the mustard seed and the leave. And so what we decided to do is I'm gonna give a quick little primer, my thoughts, my observations. On the mustard soup parable, and then Tony will be right behind me to talk about the leaven. And then in the next episode, we're coming together and we're gonna see how all of our different explanations kind of come, came together and coalesced around single themes. So this is a fun little game where you're gonna hear from. You're gonna hear from Tony, and we're gonna see how all of this comes together in the end, because neither of us is having the conversation in real time, but I'm sure that we're gonna have a lot of the similar things to say and it'll be a fun little game of seeing how all of this comes together. So if you wanna play along. And you definitely should come hang out with us in Matthew chapter 13. [00:02:04] The Mustard Seed Parable So we've gone through a couple parables already and the beauty of looking at these parables, of course, one of the many beauties, I guess I should say, is that we're getting some direct teaching from Jesus, which is always great, and we're getting it directly about the Kingdom of God. The God perspective on salvation. Clear, concise, in parable form. And so we found ourselves looking at fields, looking at planting, looking at weeds, looking at tears, looking at wheats. And now after all of that, we're coming back. To in some ways, at least for me, a familiar form. And that is we're back to seeds again. And this time it's a particular type of seed. It's the mustard seed, and Tony's gonna handle something new, a total change in direction, a totally different comparison. He's gonna get into lemon and bread making and all that kinda good stuff. But in either case, what we're finding is Jesus is specifically coming to us once again. With these finely tuned stories to help explain to us the kingdom of God. And of course, like this is clear because in all of Jesus' teaching, the kingdom of God holds this like high and lifted up this prominent position. It gets hegemony in all the other topics. And as he goes about his earthly ministry, wherever gospel you look, you're gonna find that he's proclaiming his coming to earth and that this coming meant that the kingdom of God was at hand. Now, I can only imagine, and you ought to as well, that if you were in that time, if you were listening to Jesus. What an incredible thing that would be that you're trying to understand and really discern what the he means about this kingdom of God. And perhaps like you, I would have my own perceptions of what that was, and if he's inaugurating it, I'm waiting for that thing to happen. And a kingdom is a powerful representation of ownership. Power in hierarchy in a place that's clearly manifested. And so as Jesus is in the midst of all these hears, these disciples that are gathering around the throngs of people that are trying to understand what he has to say. If he's coming and saying, I am here to inaugurate the kingdom of God, then my first question would be. Where is it? Tell us what it's gonna look like. Show me what you mean when you say that the kingdom of God is here, that you're ushering it in. And so how strange and unusual then for Jesus to say something like the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, or the kingdom of God is like lemon in bread. So it seems altogether fitting that Jesus would want to and would have to explain what exactly he means. It's a little bit though mysterious that he uses these elements. To bring about that kind of explanation. I find that endlessly fascinating. [00:04:32] Meditation on Jesus' Teachings Speaking of which, I think one of the reasons why Tony and I are discovering that we're loving these parables so much is that it forces us to do something that sometimes is Modern Christians we're honestly just not that good at it, not skilled and often not practiced because our lives are filled with many things. And we prefer not to do this, and that is to actually meditate on what he's saying, to actually like turn it over in our minds to think about it. Like personally, practically, seriously, and earnestly to understand how the truth of God's words should look in life. And it just dawned on me this week that really the parable forces us into that rubric, whether we want to or not, because the whole purpose is to take what he's saying and to dwell on it to such degree that we receive something of the promises that are therein. By chewing on them. And it's just too easy to read the scriptures, of course, and to take with you as you pass by those words, something of a little bit of the knowledge that's contained within something about the phraseology or about the facts of it. But really what God's after here is this idea that we would spend time meditating on the words of Jesus, so that we might truly understand what he means by the kingdom of God. And then we might take that kingdom into our own realm, as it were, into our own sphere of influence to manifest it. And to worship him through it and to be obedient in it. Be not because of works on the righteousness, of course, but because we already have been saved by a great savior for this kingdom. And now we know something about what it's actually like by way of these beautiful metaphors. And of course, like the metaphors, even if they're straightforward. As we're about to find in this one, still force us into them to really say, well, what? What does it mean? We're gonna talk about seeds and mustard plants, and where else we find trees in the scriptures. Without meditation, we lose so much of this without meditation. Truths are maybe devoured, but they're never digested. I like what the great Puritan Watson wrote. He said, it's better to meditate on one sermon than to hear. Five sermons. Many complain that they do not profit from sermons. This may be the chief reason, because they do not chew the cud. They do not meditate on what they have heard. And I think one of the great goals that Tony have in this series is that even as we're thinking about this before we have conversation with each other and present it all to you, that we really wanna spend time truly meditating on it, thinking practically, deeply for a long period of time. On what is being said here, what Jesus means by it, that it is for us, that it is a gift that he gives to us. And so I really totally resonate with what Watson is saying here, that when a Christian enters into meditation through the scriptures, that they receive healing, they receive power from God, that receive insights and wisdom, that receive his comforts, that receive his direction for life, and that all of that is, or most of that. Rather is lost if we move too quickly by it. We tend to gather a lot of knowledge, but maybe not a lot of the wisdom that's contained in there. So even if this sounds simple, this little parable that's before us, it's just a couple of verses. Loved ones that there is so much in it for us to understand and to chew on. I don't think we can expect to get all the understanding in one go and that's okay. We keep coming back to it. Certainly. I'm not gonna cover it all here. This is definitely not going to be, though. You might expect it, the definitive episode. On the parable of the mustard seed in the lemon. It can't be really, and that's because there's just so much for us to understand here and to receive from God. So that is the longest intro ever. So let me cut it there and let's just go right to the scripture, which of course is the best part of this podcast. Always. So this is Matthew chapter 13, beginning in verse 31, just a couple of verses. Jesus put another parable before them saying The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed than a man took and sowed in his field. It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown, it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree. So that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches. Lovely. Right. It's wild because it's such quick language there. It's so brief and already I wanted to go further, but I would be into Tony's verses, which he's gonna hit with us in just a second for. But it's really compact statement of just a couple of things. One, can we just agree that I love the way that this particular little passage begins? It just starts by saying, Jesus put another parable before them. What beautiful language that he's really throwing before his disciples placing for them to evaluate again, to meditate on these beautiful words of his that express what the kingdom of heaven is like. It's of course, well within God's purview. To not have given us any kind of direct revelation here, or direct expression or even metaphorical or comparative expression of his kingdom. How kind that he does this. And then I think there is something for us to study in this, again, to chew the cut, as Watson would say, on what it means for us to think about heaven as this grain of mustard seed and that a man took it. And he sewed it in his field. It's very small, yet it grew larger than all of the other garden plants that would probably be in that field. It became a tree, and then as a result of that, the birds of the air come and make its nest in its branches. So you can see that there's all this interesting, logical pro progression throughout this passage. And we're talking about really just two verses, really, just that many sentences. It's really exceptional thing, you know. [00:09:52] The Growth of God's Kingdom I find it interesting that this illustration progresses this idea of the kingdom of God between its inauguration and consummation. There's something built in there, and like I said, I think it's realistic to assume that so many who are hearing these words we're really, truly trying to understand. Where was this kingdom, Jesus, that you're bringing in as the Son of David, show us this kingdom and its power and my own expectation. I still don't mean to put this on. Those who would've been there would've been that this kingdom would've come in power. I was waiting for it to be manifested with this sense that it would be very clear that Jesus was in. That all things, all realities both here and now in spiritual principalities will be clearly under his foot. We were looking for, we want to see the serpent crusher, the head crusher the better. David, the one that comes inlays Goliath Finally. Where is that pump and where is that power? And interestingly, Jesus says, no, actually, it's more like a mustard seed. And of course, I mean, you don't need to know much about seeds, but if you haven't looked up a mustard seed at this point, you definitely should because it's very tiny. That's obviously implied from the text, but it is very tiny, like crazy tiny, like almost so tiny that when I look at a mustard seed, whether you're like, you're looking at your. From your like spice rack or you go and Google one, it almost seems inconceivable that any size plant could come forth from that very, very tiny seed. It's so mundane and insignificant that the idea that Jesus would say, this is what this glorious kingdom of God is like, is almost mind boggling. Like even now it's mind boggling. And if it's not, it's because you have not looked at a mustard seed. Go check that bad boy out. It's so small. And so of course like Mustard would've been a common agricultural product that grew quite prolifically in that particular area. You know, the variety of mustard seed growth in PA in Palestine is probably similar, I imagine to like maybe most of like the northern hemisphere. There's various. Kind of varieties, of course of mustard seed. What I've learned since trying to chew on this text, and they grow in very all kinds of varieties, but this idea that this small seed can become something that you put in your garden, that grows to such a great extent that it dwarfs all of the other things. And of course it starts. In the most, I don't wanna say humble, that's like, that's almost too much. The most insignificant way is incredible. So the fact that, again, we have, I think in this something that Tony and I have come back to quite often, and that is the difference between the theology of glory and the theology of the cross. That the theology of Cross is always looking to these. Normal, ordinary means these insignificant things. It's, as we've said before, God's stacking the deck constantly against himself to show his great power that he works not with great po, not in the circumstance of what people perceive us to be. Great and powerful, but the exact opposite. And I think not just as the Bible communicates, not just to display his mighty power, but also to shore forth his great glory that he needs no other thing. And because he needs no other thing, he doesn't need things to go right for him. He doesn't need the right political leaders to be involved. He does not need armies. He does not need kingdoms. He inaugurates his own. And his own is so great and so powerful that it became, it can begin in the most insignificant way because the power is not itself in the planting of that thing, but in the thing that makes it grow. And so here we have this clean and clear delineation when it comes to trees that God, again, is doing the planting and this tree is gonna grow to such a great extent that dwarfs all the others besides it. And that not just that, it becomes a resting place. It becomes a living place, a place that provides shelter. And so. It's, that is a common theme that we find, like throughout all of the scriptures. In fact, I, I often think like God has a thing for, for a couple of different items. One is tense. God loves tense, loves sojourning jam. Then the third would be trees. I mean, look throughout the scripture and see where God is either using trees directly or using, this becomes like a grand metaphor explanation for so many of other great spiritual and theological principles. That's whether we go back all the way to the beginning in the guided and we see the tree of good evil, tree of knowledge of good and evil. Tree of Life rather. In addition to that, then we have all these other references, especially in the Old Testament, but I mean, whether it's Abraham and he's souring and he's, we're getting way points by way of trees, for instance, or whether we are in the New Testament and we're talking about fig trees. There are all these references to trees. They're embedded and impounded in the lifeblood of God's work and the story that he's telling, the grand narrative of salvation of his people. [00:14:35] Historical and Biblical Context And nowhere is this, I'd say more true than in places in the Old Testament, especially when we're speaking about like the book of Daniel Daniel, chapter four. So for instance, if you go back there, you're gonna find that this description here in some ways. Has it. I think parallel is probably not strong enough a word. There's like this direct connection between what God talks about and through...
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Cultivating True Assurance: What Jesus Teaches Us Through the Parable of the Tares
10/24/2025
Cultivating True Assurance: What Jesus Teaches Us Through the Parable of the Tares
In this profound episode of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb delve deeply into the Parable of the Tares (Matthew 13:24-30), exploring its implications for Christian assurance. Building on their previous discussion, they examine how this parable speaks to the mixed nature of the visible church, the sovereignty of Christ over His kingdom, and most significantly, the doctrine of assurance. Through careful theological reflection, the hosts unpack how true believers can find solid ground for assurance not in their own works or fruit-checking, but in the promises of Christ and the testimony of the Holy Spirit. This episode offers both encouragement for those struggling with doubts and a sobering challenge to those resting in false assurance. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Tares teaches that the visible church will be mixed until the final judgment, containing both true believers (wheat) and false professors (tares) who may appear outwardly similar. True assurance is not based primarily on good works but on the promises of Christ, the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit, and the evidences of grace in our lives. False assurance is a real danger, as many who think they belong to Christ will discover at the final judgment that they never truly knew Him. The Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 18) provides a helpful framework for understanding biblical assurance as the proper possession of every Christian. Christ's role as the divine Master of the house (the world) and Lord of the angels is subtly yet powerfully affirmed in this parable, grounding our assurance in His sovereignty. Good works are the fruit of assurance, not its cause—when we are secure in our salvation, we are freed to serve Christ joyfully rather than anxiously trying to earn assurance. The final judgment will bring perfect clarity, revealing what was hidden and separating the wheat from the tares with divine precision that humans cannot achieve now. The Doctrine of Assurance: Reformed Understanding The Reformed tradition has always emphasized that believers can and should have assurance of their salvation—a conviction recovered during the Reformation in contrast to Rome's teaching. As Tony noted when reading from the Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 18), this assurance is "not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation." This assurance rests on three pillars: the promises of God in Scripture, the inward evidence of grace, and the testimony of the Holy Spirit witnessing with our spirit. What makes this understanding particularly comforting is that it shifts the foundation of assurance away from our performance to God's faithfulness. While self-examination has its place, the Reformed understanding recognizes that looking too intensely at our own hearts and works can lead either to despair or to false confidence. Instead, we're directed to look primarily to Christ and His finished work, finding in Him the anchor for our souls. The Problem of False Assurance One of the most sobering aspects of the Parable of the Tares is its implicit warning about false assurance. Just as the tares resemble wheat until maturity reveals their true nature, many professing Christians may outwardly appear to belong to Christ while inwardly remaining unregenerate. As Jesse observed, "The tares typically live under false assurance. They may attend church, confess belief, appear righteous, yet their hearts are unregenerate. Their faith is maybe historical, it's not saving, it could be intellectual, but it's not spiritual." This echoes Jesus' warning in Matthew 7 that many will say to Him, "Lord, Lord," but will hear the devastating response, "I never knew you." The parable teaches us that this self-deception is not always conscious hypocrisy but often the result of spiritual blindness. As Jesse noted, referencing Romans 1, Ephesians 4, and 1 Corinthians 2, the unregenerate are "not merely ignorant, they're blinded... to the spiritual truth by nature and by Satan." This understanding should prompt humble self-examination while simultaneously driving us to depend not on our own discernment but on Christ's perfect knowledge and saving work. Memorable Quotes "Assurance is the believer's arc where he sits Noah alike quiets and still in the midst of all distractions and destructions, commotions and confusions." - Thomas Brooks, quoted by Jesse Schwamb "When we are confessing, repenting, seeking like our status in Christ because of Christ, then we have confidence that we are in fact part of the children of God. When everything is stripped away from us and all we're crying out is only and completely and solely and unequivocally Jesus Christ, then I think we have great reason to understand that we should be confident in our assurance." - Jesse Schwamb "The sacrifice and the service that a husband performs for his wife, whom he loves and trusts and is committed to and knows that she's faithful and committed to him, that is not causing that faithfulness. It's not causing that trust and that love. It is the outcome and the outflow of it." - Tony Arsenal on how good works flow from assurance rather than cause it Resources Mentioned Scripture: Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1, Ephesians 4, 1 Corinthians 2, 2 Timothy 3:5 Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 18 "Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation" Thomas Brooks: "Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices" YouTube Channel: My Wild Backyard Khan Academy: Educational resource recommended during "Affirmations and Denials" segment Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 466 of the Reform the Brotherhood. I'm Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. We're going back to the farm again. Can't stop. Won't stop. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I'm stoked. [00:01:02] Discussion on the Parable of the Tears Tony Arsenal: The last week's discussion was interesting and I think, um, it's gonna be nice to sort of round it out and talk about some things you might not think about, uh, when you first read this parable. So I'm, I'm pretty excited. Jesse Schwamb: Oh, what a tease that is. So if you're wondering what Tony's talking about, we're hanging out. In Matthew 13, we are just really enjoying these teachings of Jesus. And they are shocking and they're challenging, and they're encouraging, and they're awesome, of course. And so we're gonna be finishing out the Parable of the Tears and you need to go back and listen to the previous conversation. This, this is all set up because we have some unfinished business. We didn't talk about the eschatological implications. We have this really big this, this matza ball hanging over us. So to speak, which was the, do the TAs in this parable even know that they are tarry, that they are the TAs? And so in this parable, the disciples learn that the kingdom itself, God's kingdom, the kingdom that Jesus is enumerating and explaining and bringing into being, they are learning that it's gonna be mixed in character. So that's correcting this expectation that the kingdom would be perfectly pure and would have, would evolve righteous rule over all of the unrighteous world. And so it's a little bit shocking that Jesus says, listen, they're gonna be. Tears within the wheats that is in the world, the seed that God himself, the sun has planted and that they're gonna exist side by side for a long time. And so we, they have to wait patiently and give ourselves to building up the wheats as the sons of the kingdom and be careful in their judgment, not to harm those who are believers. We covered a lot of that last week, but left so much unsaid we couldn't even fit it in. This is gonna be jam packed, so I'm gonna stop giving the tees instead start moving us into affirmations and denials. [00:02:45] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: It's of course that time in our conversation where we either affirm with something really like or we think is undervalued or we deny against something that we don't really like or is a little overvalued. So as I usually say to you, Tony, what have you got for us? [00:03:00] YouTube Channel Recommendation: My Wild Backyard Tony Arsenal: I am affirming a YouTube channel. Um, I, I think the algorithm goes through these cycles where it wants me to learn about bugs and things because I get Okay, like videos about bugs. And so I'm, I'm interested. There's been this, uh, channel that's been coming up on my algorithm lately called My Wild Backyard, and it, it's a guy, he's like an entomologist. He seems like a, a like a legit academic, but what he does is he basically goes through and he talks about different bugs, creepy crawlies, looks at like snakes, all that kinds of stuff. It seems like his wheelhouse is the stuff that can kill you or hurt you pretty bad. Nice. But, um, it's interesting and it's. It's good educational content. It's, you know, it's not sensationalized, it's not, uh, it's not dramatized. Um, it's very real. There's occasionally an instance where he, he's not, sometimes he will intentionally get bit or stung by an, uh, by an animal to show you what it does. So he can experience and explain what he's experiencing. And sometimes he just accidentally gets bit or stung. And so those are some of the most interesting ones. So like, for example, just looking at his, his channel, his most recent, um, his most recent video is called The most venomous Desert Creatures in the US ranked the one previous was. The world's most terrifying arachni isn't a spider. And then previous to that was what happens if a giant centipede bites you? So it's interesting stuff. If you are one of those people that likes bugs and likes creepy crawlies and things, um, this is definitely the channel for you if you're not one of those people. I actually think this probably is the channel for you too. 'cause it kind of demystifies a lot of this stuff. Um. You know, for example, he, he will commonly point out that, um, spiders don't wanna bite you and they just wanna leave you alone. And, and as long as you leave them alone, even, even something like a black widow, which people are terrified of, and I think, right, rightfully so. I mean, they can be scary. Those can be scary bites. He'll, he'll handle those, no problem. And as long as he's not like putting downward pressure on them, uh, they have no interest in biting, they really just want to get away. So even seeing that kind of stuff, I think can help demystify and, and sort of, uh, make it a little bit easier. So my Wild Backyard, he can find it on YouTube. Um, he's safe for kids. He's not, he's not cussing even. I mean, I think occasionally when he gets bit on accident, you might, you know, you might have a beep here or there, but, um, he's not, he's not regularly swearing or things like that. And he does a pretty good job of adding that stuff out. Jesse Schwamb: What a great title for that, isn't it? This, yeah. Confluence of your backyard. That space that seems domesticated is also stealing its own. Right. Wild. And there's a be Yeah. Both those things coming together. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's interesting stuff and it's really good. I mean, it's really compelling videography. He does a good job of taking good photos. You'll see insects that you usually won't see, or spiders you usually won't see. Um, so yeah, it's cool. Check it out. [00:05:51] Discussion on Spiders and Creepy Crawlies Jesse Schwamb: What are you, uh, yeah, I myself would like to become more comfortable with the arachni variety. If only be, I mean, I don't know. It's, it's a weird creature, so my instinct is to be like, kill them all. And then if I can't find them and I know they're around, then we just burn everything that we own. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: They just can't sink into the ground fast enough. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. There's something about the way they move, like their, their bodies don't move the way you would anticipate them to. Right. And it freaks, it just weirds out human sensibilities, so. Right. Jesse Schwamb: They're also like, I find them to be very surprising. Often. It's not kind of a, a very like, kind of measured welcome into your life. It's like you just go to get in the shower and there's a giant spider. Yeah. Oh yeah. Although I guess that spider, he's, he or she's probably like, whoa, where'd you come from? You know, like, yeah. He's like, I was just taking a Tony Arsenal: shower. You know what's interesting? Um, I saw another video was on a different channel, um, like common jumping spiders. Yeah. Which there are like hundreds of species of common jumping spiders. Jesse Schwamb: True. Tony Arsenal: Um, but spiders and jumping spiders specifically, actually you can form almost like a pet bond with, so like the, that jumping spider that like lives in your house and sees you every day. He, he probably knows who you are and is like, comfortable with you. And they've done studies that like you can actually domesticate jumping spiders, so they're not as foreign and alien as you might think. Although they certainly do look a little bit strange and weird. And the way their bodies move is almost designed to weird out people like it just the skinness, like the way their legs skitter and move it, it just is, it's, it triggers something very primal in us to That's wild. Be weirded out by it. Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: It's wild. I love it. That's a good, a affirmation. I'm definitely gonna check that out. I, any, anything? I really want to know what the, what like the terrifying arachni is. That's not a spider. Tony Arsenal: It's a, well, it's called a camel spider, but it's not really a spider. Oh, Jesse Schwamb: I know what you're talking about. That is kind of terrifying. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. They, they actually don't have any venom. Um, yeah. Check out the video. I mean, it, it was a good video. Um, but yeah, they're freaky looking and, um, but even that, like he was handling it No problem. Yeah. Like it wasn't, it wasn't aggressive with him once Wow. Once it figured out it wasn't, he wasn't trying to hurt him and, and that it couldn't eat him. Um, it, it just sort of like hung out until he let it go. So Jesse Schwamb: yeah, just be careful if you watch it one before bed or while in bed. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Probably not right before bed. Yeah. You'll, you'll get the creepy crawlies all night. Jesse Schwamb: I love it. But there's something somewhat. Like invigorating about that isn't there? Like it's, it's kind of a natural, just like kind of holy respect for the world that God has created, that they're these features that are so different, so wild, so interesting and a little bit frightening, but in the sense that we just draw off from them because they're so different than what we are. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse Schwamb: And you know, again, there's places you would be happy to see them, but maybe your bathtub or like shooting out, like, you know, like where you live, the jumping spiders are legit and they will just pop out on you, you know? Yeah. You're just doing your own thing and then all of a sudden they're popping out. I think part of that is just that what, what gets me is like them just, you know, like I remember in my basement here, once one popped out from a rafter and then I was holding, happened to be holding up broom. My instinct just naturally was to hit it. I hit it with the broom and it went across the room and fell on an empty box and sounded like a silver dollar had hit the box. Like it was just a massive, I mean, again, like, it's like fish stories, like it's a massive spider. It was a big spider. Yeah. But you just don't expect to, to see that kind of thing. Or maybe, maybe I should, but anything that moves in that way, and again, like centipedes, man, forget it. We have those too, like in our basement. Like the long ones. Oh yeah. Yeah. That thing will come like squiggling down the wall at you, like eye level and you just wanna run up the stairs screaming like a little girl. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, you do run up the stairs screaming like a little girl. It's not that you want to, it's that usually you do. I don't mean like you specifically, although probably you specifically. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There's, yeah, you just react. Well, j Jesse enough freaking out. I mean, we're getting close to Halloween, so I suppose it's appropriate, but, uh, enough of that. What are you affirming or denying today? Jesse Schwamb: Once again, without like any coordination, mine is not unlike yours. I know you and I, we talk about the world in which we live, which God has created, and this lovely command, this ammunition to take dominion over that. And one of the things I appreciate about our conversations is I think you and I often have maybe not like a novel. Kinda perspective on that, but one that I don't hear talked about often and that is this idea of taking dominion over what it is possible to know and to appropriate, and then to apply onto wisdom. [00:10:27] Affirmation: Khan Academy Jesse Schwamb: And so my information is in that realm. It's another form of taking ownership of what's in the wild of knowledge that you can possess. And again, equal parts. What an amazing time to be alive. So I'm affirming with the website, Khan Academy, which I'm sure many are familiar with. And this website offers like. Thousands of hours. Uh, and materials of free instructional videos, practice exercises, quizzes, all these like really bespoke, personalized learning modules you can create for topics like math, science, computing, economics, history, art. I think it goes like even starting at like. Elementary age all the way up into like early college can help you study for things like the SAT, the LSAT AP courses, and I was revisiting it. I have an open account with them that I keep in love and I go back to it from time to time. And I was working on some stuff where I wanted to rehearse some knowledge in like the calculus space, do some things by hand, which I haven't done. And I was just like, I'm blown away at how good this stuff is. And it's all for free. I mean, you should donate if you. You get something from this because it's a nonprofit, but the fact that there are these amazing instructional videos out there that can help us get a better understanding of either things we already know and we can rehearse the knowledge or to learn something brand new essentially for free. But somebody's done all the hard work to curate a pedagogy for you. Honestly, this is incredible. So if you haven't looked at that website in a long time or maybe ever, and you might be thinking, what, what do I really wanna learn? Lemme tell you. There's a lot of interesting stuff there and it's so approachable and it's such a good website for teaching. And if you have children in particular, even if you're looking for help, either helping them with their own coursework or maybe to have like kind of a tutor on the side, this is so good. So I can't say enough good things recently about Khan Academy 'cause it's been so helpful to me and super fun to like just sit and have your own paced study and in the private and comfort of your own home or your desk at work or wherever it is that you need to learn it. To be able to have somebody teach you some things, to do a little practice exercises, and then to go on to the world and to apply the things you've learned. Ah, it's so good. Tony Arsenal: Nice. Yeah, I've, I've never done anything with Khan Academy. I'll have to check it out. There's, um, there's some skills of needing to brush up on, uh, at work that I am probably not gonna be able to find in my normal channels, so I'll have to see if there is anything going on there. Um, but yeah, that's, that's good stuff. And it's free. Love freestyle. It's,...
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The Wheat Among Weeds: Christ's Call to Faithful Endurance
10/17/2025
The Wheat Among Weeds: Christ's Call to Faithful Endurance
In episode 465 of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb explore Jesus's parable of the wheat and tares (weeds) from Matthew 13. This thought-provoking discussion examines Christ's startling teaching that good and evil will always coexist within the visible church until the end of time. The brothers carefully unpack the theological implications of Jesus's command not to separate wheat from weeds prematurely, challenging our natural tendency to judge others while offering wisdom about God's sovereign plan for final judgment. This episode wrestles with difficult questions about church purity, assurance of salvation, and how believers should approach the reality of false professors within Christ's church—providing biblical guidance for faithfully enduring in a mixed communion. Key Takeaways The Coexistence of True and False Believers: Jesus teaches that the visible church will always contain a mixture of genuine believers and false professors until the final judgment. The Danger of Premature Judgment: Christ explicitly warns against attempting to completely purify the church before the harvest (end of age) because doing so would damage the wheat (true believers). Proper Biblical Interpretation: Unlike some parables, Jesus provides a detailed allegorical explanation of this parable—the sower is Christ, the field is the world, the good seed represents believers, and the weeds are the sons of the evil one. The Challenge of Discernment: One of the most difficult theological pills to swallow is that it's often impossible to perfectly distinguish between true and false believers. Final Judgment as God's Prerogative: The separation of wheat from weeds is reserved for the angels at the end of the age, not for current church leaders or members. The Reality of False Assurance: Some professing Christians may have false assurance of salvation while genuinely believing they are saved. The Importance of Theological Integrity: Public theologians and pastors have a moral responsibility to be transparent about their theological convictions and changes in their beliefs. Deeper Explanations The Difficult Reality of a Mixed Church Jesus's teaching in the parable of the wheat and weeds directly challenges our natural desire for a perfectly pure church. By instructing the servants not to pull up the weeds lest they damage the wheat, Christ is establishing an important ecclesiological principle that will hold true until His return. This means that no matter how rigorously we apply church discipline or how carefully we examine profession of faith, we will never achieve a perfectly pure communion this side of eternity. The visible church—which can be understood as those who profess faith and are baptized—will always include both true and false believers. This reality should cultivate humility in how we approach church membership and discipline. Jesus isn't suggesting that all attempts at church purity are wrong (as other Scripture passages clearly call for church discipline), but rather that perfect purification is impossible and attempts at achieving it will inevitably damage true believers. This teaching directly refutes movements throughout church history (like Donatism) that have sought absolute purity in the visible church. The Problem of Discernment and Assurance One of the most challenging aspects of this parable is Christ's implicit teaching that true and false professors can appear nearly identical, especially in their early development. Like tares growing alongside wheat, false believers can profess orthodox doctrine, participate in church life, and exhibit what appears to be spiritual fruit. This creates profound implications for how we understand assurance of salvation. As Tony notes, while "assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian," there's also the sobering reality of false assurance. Some may sincerely believe they are saved when they are not, raising difficult questions about self-examination and spiritual discernment. This doesn't mean believers should live in perpetual doubt, but rather that we should approach assurance with both confidence in God's promises and healthy self-examination. True assurance must be grounded in the finished work of Christ rather than merely in our experiences or behaviors, while false assurance often lacks this proper foundation. The brothers wisely note that final judgment belongs to God alone, who perfectly knows who belongs to Him. Memorable Quotes "The visible church is set before us as a mixed body. Maybe everybody else's churches, but certainly not my church, like the one that I actually go to on the Lord's day. So it seems like there might be this shocking statement possibly that he has for us, whether you're Episcopalian or Presbyterian or independent or Baptist or Christian life assembly, whatever it is, that no matter what we do to purify the church, our churches, we're never gonna succeed in obtaining a perfectly pure communion." - Jesse Schwamb "I think that's what I find shocking. It is like a massive statement of reality that is at equal points totally sensible. And other times we would think, 'well, surely not in the church Lord, like of all the places, like aren't we talking about a kind of purity of your people?' ...and what I think he's striking at, which I do find a little bit wild, is that Jesus is essentially saying, at least to my ear, anything we try to do, even the purest preaching of the gospel, is not gonna prevent this in every age of the church." - Jesse Schwamb "I'm affirming that assurance is the proper and rightful possession and inheritance of every Christian." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 465 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Guess what? It looks like you and I are taking another trip back to the farm on this episode. Tony Arsenal: Yes. For a couple episodes. Jesse Schwamb: For a couple episodes. Yeah. [00:01:01] Exploring Jesus' Parables in Matthew 13 Jesse Schwamb: Because what, Jesus will not stop leading us there. We're looking at his teachings, specifically the parables, and we're gonna be looking in Matthew chapter 13, where it seems like, is it possible that Jesus, once again has something very shocking for us to hear? That is for all the ages. 'cause it seems like he might actually be saying, Tony, that good and evil will always be found together in the professing church until the end of the world. Like in other words, that the visible church is set before a mixed body. I mean. Maybe everybody else chose churches, but certainly not my church, like the one that I actually go to on the Lord's day. So it seems like there might be this shocking statement possibly that he has for us, whether you're Episcopalian or Presbyterian or independent or Baptist or Christian life assembly, whatever it is, that no matter what we do to purify the church, our churches, we're never gonna succeed in obtaining a perfectly pure communion. Could that possibly be what Jesus is saying to us? I don't know what we're gonna find out. Tony Arsenal: We are. We are gonna find out. Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be definitive. And if now that makes sense. If you don't even know why we're looking at Jesus' teachings, you could do us a favor even before you go any further. And that is just head on over in your favor, interwebs browser to or reform brotherhood.com, and you can find out all of the other episodes, all 464 that are living out there. There's all kinds of good stuff, at least we think so, or at least entertaining stuff for you to listen to. And when you're done with all of that in a year or two, then we'll pick it up right back here where we're about to go with some affirmations or some denials. [00:02:39] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: So Tony, before we figure out what Jesus has for us in Matthew 13, in the parable of the weeds, or the tears, or the tears in the weed, what gets all of that? Are you affirming with, are you denying against, Tony Arsenal: I am denying. First of all, I'm denying whatever this thing is that's going on with my throat. Sorry for the rest of the episode, everyone. Um, I'm denying something that I, I think it is. How do I want to phrase this? Um, maybe I'll call it theological integrity, and maybe that's too strong of a word, but maybe not. So the listener who's been with us for a little while will remember that a while back. Um, you know, we've, we've talked about Matthew Barrett and he was a Baptist, uh, who's heavily involved in sort of the theology, proper controversies. He wrote Simply Trinity, which is just a fantastic book. He was a teacher or a professor at Midwestern, um, Baptist Theological Seminary. And he recently, um, uh, converted is not the right word. I hate calling it a conversion when you go from one faithful Bible tradition to another. But he recently, um, changed his perspective and joined the Anglican Church. And at the time I kind of, you know, I kind of talked about it as like, it's a little bit disappointing, like the reasons he cited. [00:03:57] Theological Integrity and Public Disclosure Tony Arsenal: Where I'm bringing this into a matter of sort of theological integrity. And it's not, it's not just Matthew Barrett. Um, there's other elements of things going on that I'll, I'll point to too is it's often the case when someone who is in some form of professional theological work or professional vocational ministry, that as they start to change perspectives, um, there comes to be like an inflection point where they should notify whoever it is that they are accountable to in that job or vocation, uh, uh, and then do the right thing and step down. Right? And so with Matthew Barrett, um. He continued to teach systematic theology at a Baptist Theological Seminary, which has a faith statement which he was obligated to affirm and hold in good faith. He continued to teach there for quite some time, if, you know, when he, when he published the timeline and he's the one that put all the timelines out there. So it's not like people had to go digging for this. Um, he continued to teach under contract and under that, that faith statement, um, for quite some time after his positions changed. I remember in college, um, sim very similar situation, one of my professors, um, and I went to a Baptist college. It was a General Baptist college. Um, one of my professors became Roman Catholic and for quite some time he continued to teach without telling anyone that he had converted to Roman Catholicism. Um. And I think that there's a, there's a, a level of integrity that public theologians need to have. Um, and it, it really makes it difficult when something like this happens to be able to say that this is not a moral failing or some sort of failure. Um, you know, James White has jumped on the bandwagon very quickly to say, of course we told you that this was the way it was gonna lead. That if you affirm the great tradition, you know, he was very quick to say like, this is the road to Rome. And I think in his mind, um, Canterbury is just sort of one, one stop on that trip. Um, it becomes very hard after the fact to not have this color and tarnish all of your work before. 'cause it starts to be questions like, well, when, when did you start to hold these views? Were you writing, were you, were you publicizing Baptist theology when you no longer believed it to be the truth? Were you teaching theology students that this is what the Bible teaches when you no longer thought that to be true? Um. Were you secretly attending Anglican services and even teaching and, and helping deliver the service when you were, you know, still outwardly affirming a Baptist faith statement. And the reason I, I'll point out one other thing, 'cause I don't want this to be entirely about Matthew Barrett, but there's a big, uh, hub glue going on in the PCA right now. Um, a guy named Michael Foster, who some of our audience will probably be familiar with, um, he and I have had our desktops in the past, but I think he and I have come to a little bit of a, of a uneasy truce on certain things. He, uh, went to work compiling a, a list and there's some problems with the data, like it's, it's not clean data, so take it for what it's worth. But he compiled a list of. Every publicly available church website in the PCA. So something like 1800 websites or something like that. Huge numbers. And he went and looked at all of the staff and leadership directories, and he cataloged all the churches that had some sort of office or some sort of position that appeared to have a, a woman leading in a way that the Bible restricts. And that more importantly, and starting to say it this way, but more importantly, that the PCA itself restricts. So we're not talking about him going to random church websites and making assessments of their polity. We're talking about a, a denomination that has stated standards for who can bear office and it's not women. Um. So he compiled this and people in the PCA are coming out of the woodwork to basically defend the practice of having shepherdess and deacons. There was one that he cataloged where, um, the website actually said, uh, that was the pastor's wife and the title was Pastor of Women. Um, and then as soon as it became public that this was the case, they very quickly went in and changed the title to Shepherd of Women or Shepherdess of Women or something like that. So it's, it's really the same phenomena, not commenting, you know, I think we've been clear where we stand on the ordination of female officers and things like that, but not that all that withstanding, um, when you are going to be a part of a body that has a stated perspective on something and then just decide not to follow it, the right thing to do the, the upstanding morally. Uh, in full of integrity move would be to simply go to another denomination where your views align more closely. PCA churches, it's not super easy, but it's not impossible to leave the PCA as an entire congregation and then go somewhere like the EPC, which is the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, which still on the spectrum of things is still relatively conservative, but is in general is in favor of, uh, female officers, elders, and diegans. So I, I think, you know, and you see this with podcasters, there was the big, there was a big fu and Les became a Presbyterian, and then when Tanner became a Presbyterian on the pub, I think it is, um, incumbent on people who do any form of public theology and that that would include me and Jesse when our views change. There comes a point where we need to disclose that, be honest about it, um, and not try to pretend that we continue to hold a view that we don't be just because it's convenient or because it might be super inconvenient to make a change. I don't even want to pretend to imagine the pressures, uh, that someone like Matthew Barrett would face. I mean, you're talking about losing your entire livelihood. I, I understand that from an intellectual perspective, how difficult that must be, but in some ways, like that kind of comes with the territory. Same thing with a pastor. You have a Baptist pastor or a Presbyterian pastor. It can go both ways, I think. I'm more familiar with Baptist becoming Presbyterians. I don't, I don't see as many going the other direction. But you have a, a Baptist pastor who comes to pay to Baptist convictions and then continues to minister in their church for, I've, I've seen cases where they continue to minister for years, um, because they don't, they don't have the ability to now just go get a job in a Presbyterian context because there's all sorts of, um, training and certification and ordination process that needs to happen. Um, so they just continue ministering where they are, even though they no longer believe the church's state of, you know, state of faith statement. So that's a lot to say. Like, let your yes be yes and your no be no, and when we really all boil it down. So I think that's enough of that. It, it just sort of got in my craw this week and I couldn't really stop thinking about it. 'cause it's been very frustrating. And now there are stories coming out of. Doctoral students that, um, that Barrett was teaching who have now also become Anglican. Um, so, you know, there starts to be questions of like, was he actively pros? I mean, this is like Jacob Arminius did this stuff and, and like the reform tradition would look down on it, where he was in secret in like sort of small group private settings. He was teaching convictions very different than the uni. I'm talking about Arminius now. Not necessarily Barrett. He was teaching convictions very different than the, the stated theology of the university he taught for, and then in public he was sort of towing the line. You have to ask the question and it is just a question. There's been no confirmation that I'm aware of, but you have to ask the question if that was what was going on with Barrett, was he teaching Baptist theology publicly and then meeting with, with PhD students privately and, and sort of convincing them of Anglican theology. I don't know. I'm not speculating on that, but I think it, the situation definitely right, brings that question to mind. It forces us to ask it. Um, and had he. Been transparent about his theological shifts sooner than that may not be a, a question we have to ask. Um, the situation may not be all that different, but we wouldn't have to ask the question. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, disclosure is important in lots of places in life and we shouldn't think that theological dis disclosure, especially like you're saying among our teachers, among our pastors, it is a critical thing. It's helpful for people to know when perspectives have changed, especially when they're looking to their leaders who are exhibiting trust and care over their discipleship or their education to express that difference. If there's been a mark, change it. It's worth it. Disclose, I'm guessing you don't have to over disclose, but that we're talking about a critical, we're talking about like subversive anglicanism, allegedly. Yeah. Then. It would be more than helpful to know that that is now shaping not just perspective, but of course like major doctrine, major understanding. Yeah. And then of course by necessary conviction and extension, everything that's being promulgated or proclamation in the public sphere from that person is likely now been permeated by that. And we'd expect so. Right. If convictions change, and especially like you're talking about, we're just talking about moving from, especially among like Bible believing traditions, just raise the hand and say loved ones, uh, this is my firm conviction now. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I think if someone walks up to you and says, do you think that we should baptize babies? And you're like, yeah, I think so. Then you probably shouldn't be teaching at a Baptist seminary anymore. Like, seems like a reasonable standard. And that seems to be what happened, at least for some period of time. Um, you know, and, and it, that's not to say like, I think, I think there are instances where the church, a given church or um, or a university or seminary or, or whatever the situation might be, can be gracious and recognize like, yeah, people's perspectives change and maybe we can find a way for you to continue to finish out the semester or, you know, we can bridge you for a little while until you can find a new, a new job. Um, you know, we'll, we'll only have you teach certain courses or we'll have a guest lecturer come in when you have to cover this subject that is at variance and like, we'll make sure we're all clear about it, but it doesn't seem like any of that happened. And that's, um, that's no...
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