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Ep. 197 ‘Are cakes speech?’ with Alliance Defending Freedom’s Kristen Waggoner

Release Date: 10/12/2023

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

On May 1, the U.S. House of Representatives passed the Antisemitism Awareness Act by a vote of 320 to 91. Proponents of the law say it is necessary to address anti-Semitic discrimination on college campuses. Opponents argue it threatens free speech. Who’s right? Kenneth Stern was the lead drafter of the definition of anti-Semitism used in the act. But he said the definition was never meant to punish speech. Rather, it was drafted to help data collectors write reports. Stern is the director of the Bard Center for the Study of Hate. His most recent book is titled, “.”...

Ep. 213: Campus unrest - live webinar

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Host Nico Perrino joins his FIRE colleagues Will Creeley and Alex Morey to answer questions about the recent campus unrest and its First Amendment implications. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 0:41 What is FIRE?/campus unrest 5:44 What are the basic First Amendment principles for campus protest? 11:30 Student encampments 18:09 Exceptions to the First Amendment 29:01 Can administrators limit access to non-students/faculty? 34:13 Denying recognition to Students for Justice in Palestine 36:26 Were protesters at UT Austin doing anything illegal? 40:54 The USC...

Ep. 212: Should the First Amendment protect hate speech?

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

In America, hate speech is generally protected by the First Amendment. But should it be? Today’s guest is out with a new book, “.” W. Wat Hopkins is emeritus professor of communication at Virginia Tech, where he taught communication law and cyberspace law. Transcript of Interview: Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 5:34 Why write about hate speech?8:50 Has the Supreme Court ruled on hate speech? 13:56 What speech falls outside First Amendment protection? 16:44 The history of the First Amendment 20:00 Fighting words and Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942) 24:00 How does the Supreme Court...

Ep. 211: Generational differences and civil liberties with Neil Howe

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

In late 2013, some of us at FIRE started noticing a change on college campuses. Students, who were previously the strongest constituency for free speech on campus, were turning against free speech. They began appealing to administrators more frequently for protection from different speakers and using the language of trauma and safety to justify censorship. What changed? Neil Howe may have an answer. He is a historian, economist, and demographer who speaks frequently on generational change. His most recent book, “,” was published last year. Howe argues that history has seasonal...

Ep. 210: The First Amendment at the Supreme Court

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

“I have never seen a Supreme Court term that is as consequential as this one is going to be,” said FIRE Chief Counsel Bob Corn-Revere, this term’s First Amendment cases. On today’s show, we analyze the oral arguments in four of those cases: NRA v. Vullo, Murthy v. Missouri (formerly Missouri v. Biden), Moody v. NetChoice, LLC, and NetChoice, LLC, v. Paxton. We also discuss the court’s decision in two cases involving government officials blocking their critics on social media. Joining the show are Corn-Revere, FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London, and FIRE Director of Public Advocacy...

Ep. 209: ‘Is money speech?’ with Robert Breedlove

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

There is a recurring debate in the free speech community regarding whether money is speech. Bitcoin-focused entrepreneur, writer, and philosopher Robert Breedlove joins us today to help resolve the debate. Describing money as “the language of human action,” Robert makes the case that money, like the cryptocurrency Bitcoin, is information and should be free from government regulation and manipulation. During this longer-than-usual episode, Robert and Nico discuss everything from Keynesian economics and 3D-printed firearms to the Chinese Communist Party. Robert is...

Ep. 208: Dodging censorship in Russia

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

On today’s episode, we discuss Alexei Navalny’s death, Vladimir Putin, censorship in Russia, and , an anti-censorship platform that grants users living under authoritarian regimes access to news and other censored content. Yevgeny “Genia” Simkin is the co-founder of Samizdat Online and Stanislav “Stas” Kucher is its chief content officer. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 2:25 Alexei Navalny 8:53 The state of Russian opposition 20:48 The origins of Samizdat Online 28:17 How does Samizdat Online circumvent censorship? 35:16 Could Yevgeny Prigozhin have...

Ep. 207 Free speech news: NetChoice, Taylor Swift, October 7, and Satan

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

On today’s free speech news roundup, we discuss the recent NetChoice oral argument, Taylor Swift, doxxing, October 7 fallout on campus, and Satan in Iowa. Joining us on the show are Alex Morey, FIRE director of Campus Rights Advocacy; Aaron Terr, director of Public Advocacy; and Ronnie London, our general counsel. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 0:44 NetChoice oral arguments 19:39 Taylor Swift cease and desist letter 29:20 Publishing unlawfully obtained information 39:28 Harvard and doxxing 47:44 Princeton no contact orders 55:52 Columbia law denies...

Ep. 206: CJ Hopkins compared modern Germany to Nazi Germany. Now he’s standing trial.

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

J Hopkins is an American playwright, novelist, and political satirist. He moved to Germany in 2004. He publishes a self-titled blog on and is the editor of Consent Factory Publishing. CJ’s most recent book, “The Rise of the New Normal Reich,” draws a parallel between Nazi Germany and the response to the COVID-19 pandemic. In August 2022, it was banned on Amazon in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands. In the months that followed, CJ was charged by German authorities with violating a section of the German penal code that prohibits “disseminating information, the intention...

Ep. 205: An anarchist’s perspective with Michael Malice

So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Michael Malice is a self-described “anarchist without adjectives” and is the author of several books, including most recently “.” He is also the host of the podcast, “” and the subject of the biographical comic book, “.” Michael joins us today to explain why he hates the term “free speech,” and gives his thoughts on McCarthyism, anarchism, Twitter, and more. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 0:46 Who is Michael Malice? 6:45 What is an anarchist without adjectives? 7:26 The definition of anarchism/prominent anarchists 8:01 How do we have...

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President, CEO, and general counsel of the Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristen Waggoner, joins us for a discussion on freedom of speech and religious liberty. ADF has played various roles in 74 U.S. Supreme Court victories and since 2011, has won cases before the Court 15 times.

According to its website, “ADF is the world's largest legal organization committed to protecting religious freedom, free speech, marriage and family, parental rights, and the sanctity of life.”

ADF has litigated many high profile and controversial free speech cases, including the recent Supreme Court case involving a web designer who didn’t want to be compelled to design websites for same-sex weddings. Before that, ADF litigated the 2018 Masterpiece Cakeshop case, which involved a cake designer who similarly didn’t want to provide his services for same-sex weddings on religious grounds.

After the initial conversation was recorded, The Washington Post and The New Yorker released articles critical of ADF. Nico and Kristen recorded an additional, brief conversation to address these articles. That is included at the end of the podcast.

Transcript:

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-are-cakes-speech-alliance-defending-freedoms-kristen

Timestamps:

0:43 - Introduction

6:16 - Kristen’s path to ADF

12:54 - ADF’s international team

14:20 - Pavi Rasanen controversy

19:24 - What does it mean to be a ministry?/blasphemy laws

22:56 - ADF’s Supreme Court cases

26:58 - 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis

28:56 - Public accommodation laws/Masterpiece Cakeshop

40:40 - Pre-enforcement challenges

42:50 - Facial challenges

47:32 - Test cases or fake cases?

49:44 - Yale incident

57:50 - Other campus shoutdowns

1:00:08 - L.M. v. Town of Middleborough

1:14:27 - Kristen addresses WaPo article

1:15:38 - Kristen addresses New Yorker article

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