So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast
So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast takes an uncensored look at the world of free expression through the law, philosophy, and stories that define your right to free speech. Hosted by FIRE's Nico Perrino. New episodes post every other Thursday.
info_outline
Ep. 212: Should the First Amendment protect hate speech?
04/25/2024
Ep. 212: Should the First Amendment protect hate speech?
In America, hate speech is generally protected by the First Amendment. But should it be? Today’s guest is out with a new book, “.” W. Wat Hopkins is emeritus professor of communication at Virginia Tech, where he taught communication law and cyberspace law. Transcript of Interview: Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 5:34 Why write about hate speech?8:50 Has the Supreme Court ruled on hate speech? 13:56 What speech falls outside First Amendment protection? 16:44 The history of the First Amendment 20:00 Fighting words and Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942) 24:00 How does the Supreme Court determine what speech is protected? 35:24 Defining hate speech 38:54 Debating the value of hate speech 44:02 Defining hate speech (again) 50:30 Abuses of hate speech codes 1:00:10 Skokie 1:02:39 Current Supreme Court and hate speech 1:06:00 Outro Show Notes “” by Nadine Strossen
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/30984978
info_outline
Ep. 211: Generational differences and civil liberties with Neil Howe
04/11/2024
Ep. 211: Generational differences and civil liberties with Neil Howe
In late 2013, some of us at FIRE started noticing a change on college campuses. Students, who were previously the strongest constituency for free speech on campus, were turning against free speech. They began appealing to administrators more frequently for protection from different speakers and using the language of trauma and safety to justify censorship. What changed? Neil Howe may have an answer. He is a historian, economist, and demographer who speaks frequently on generational change. His most recent book, “,” was published last year. Howe argues that history has seasonal rhythms of growth, maturation, entropy, and rebirth and that different generations take on different attributes reflecting their place in the cycle. Joining Howe and host Nico Perrino for the conversation is FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, co-author of “." Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 6:10 Neil’s intent with his book, “Generations” 13:12 Pattern in American history 17:08 The nomad archetype 25:00 Covid and the younger generation 27:28 Do people shape events? 35:35 Gen-Xers and Millennials 41:45 The Fourth Turning 50:24 William James’ “The Moral Equivalent of War” 57:08 Are Gen-Z actually Millennials? 58:10 Dominant generations 01:06:40 How do generational cycles impact civil liberties? 01:10:57 Summary of Millennials 01:18:15 Peaceful periods lead to greater inequality 1:19:16 Outro Show Notes Neil Howe’s Substack, “” Greg Lukianoff’s Substack, “”
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/30780563
info_outline
Ep. 210: The First Amendment at the Supreme Court
03/29/2024
Ep. 210: The First Amendment at the Supreme Court
“I have never seen a Supreme Court term that is as consequential as this one is going to be,” said FIRE Chief Counsel Bob Corn-Revere, this term’s First Amendment cases. On today’s show, we analyze the oral arguments in four of those cases: NRA v. Vullo, Murthy v. Missouri (formerly Missouri v. Biden), Moody v. NetChoice, LLC, and NetChoice, LLC, v. Paxton. We also discuss the court’s decision in two cases involving government officials blocking their critics on social media. Joining the show are Corn-Revere, FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London, and FIRE Director of Public Advocacy Aaron Terr. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 3:29 NRA v. Vullo 26:05 Murthy v. Missouri 50:41 Netchoice cases 1:11:26 Lindke v. Freed and O’Connor-Ratcliff v. Garnier 1:21:24 Outro Show Notes ‘
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/30595358
info_outline
Ep. 209: ‘Is money speech?’ with Robert Breedlove
03/25/2024
Ep. 209: ‘Is money speech?’ with Robert Breedlove
There is a recurring debate in the free speech community regarding whether money is speech. Bitcoin-focused entrepreneur, writer, and philosopher Robert Breedlove joins us today to help resolve the debate. Describing money as “the language of human action,” Robert makes the case that money, like the cryptocurrency Bitcoin, is information and should be free from government regulation and manipulation. During this longer-than-usual episode, Robert and Nico discuss everything from Keynesian economics and 3D-printed firearms to the Chinese Communist Party. Robert is the host of the popular podcast, “The ‘What is Money?’ Show,” which dives into the nature of money by asking guests one simple question: What is money? In 2020, he co-authored the book, “Thank God for Bitcoin: The Creation, Corruption and Redemption of Money.” Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 3:56 Robert’s background 19:21 What is Austrian economics? 24:23 Is money speech? 44:48 Can money express irrational things? 51:59 Is access to perfect information always a good thing? 1:05:17 Bitcoin and anonymity 1:18:14 Prediction markets 1:31:49 Is code speech? 1:39:59 Is economic freedom more fundamental than freedom of speech? 1:49:13 Regulating bitcoin 1:55:16 Bitcoin ETFs 1:57:03 Rapid-fire Bitcoin questions 2:03:15 Does more access to information make the world a better place? 2:06:53 Outro Show Notes “” “” by G Edward Griffin “” by Saifedean Ammous “” by Friedrich Hayek “” by Karl Popper “” by John Milton
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/30534583
info_outline
Ep. 208: Dodging censorship in Russia
03/14/2024
Ep. 208: Dodging censorship in Russia
On today’s episode, we discuss Alexei Navalny’s death, Vladimir Putin, censorship in Russia, and , an anti-censorship platform that grants users living under authoritarian regimes access to news and other censored content. Yevgeny “Genia” Simkin is the co-founder of Samizdat Online and Stanislav “Stas” Kucher is its chief content officer. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 2:25 Alexei Navalny 8:53 The state of Russian opposition 20:48 The origins of Samizdat Online 28:17 How does Samizdat Online circumvent censorship? 35:16 Could Yevgeny Prigozhin have overthrown Putin? 41:03 The progression of Putin’s regime 58:08 How can people help? 59:56 Outro Show notes (nonprofit established by Alexei Navalny) “” by Peter Pomerantsev Past related episodes Ep. 108: Ep. 156: Ep. 157:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/30376213
info_outline
Ep. 207 Free speech news: NetChoice, Taylor Swift, October 7, and Satan
02/29/2024
Ep. 207 Free speech news: NetChoice, Taylor Swift, October 7, and Satan
On today’s free speech news roundup, we discuss the recent NetChoice oral argument, Taylor Swift, doxxing, October 7 fallout on campus, and Satan in Iowa. Joining us on the show are Alex Morey, FIRE director of Campus Rights Advocacy; Aaron Terr, director of Public Advocacy; and Ronnie London, our general counsel. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 0:44 NetChoice oral arguments 19:39 Taylor Swift cease and desist letter 29:20 Publishing unlawfully obtained information 39:28 Harvard and doxxing 47:44 Princeton no contact orders 55:52 Columbia law denies recognition to Law Students Against Antisemitism 1:02:38 Columbia adopts Kalven Report 1:06:06 Indiana University art exhibit canceled, professor suspended 1:14:55 Satan in Iowa 1:21:59 Outro Show Notes
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/30157293
info_outline
Ep. 206: CJ Hopkins compared modern Germany to Nazi Germany. Now he’s standing trial.
02/15/2024
Ep. 206: CJ Hopkins compared modern Germany to Nazi Germany. Now he’s standing trial.
J Hopkins is an American playwright, novelist, and political satirist. He moved to Germany in 2004. He publishes a self-titled blog on and is the editor of Consent Factory Publishing. CJ’s most recent book, “The Rise of the New Normal Reich,” draws a parallel between Nazi Germany and the response to the COVID-19 pandemic. In August 2022, it was banned on Amazon in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands. In the months that followed, CJ was charged by German authorities with violating a section of the German penal code that prohibits “disseminating information, the intention of which is to further the aims of a former National-Socialist organization [the Nazis].” He was recently acquitted, but the prosecutor chose to appeal the decision. In the coming months, CJ will stand trial — again — for a crime he claims he didn’t commit and for which he has already been acquitted. **We are launching on this week! Nothing will change for our listeners. It’s just another way to support the podcast and FIRE. Premium subscribers will receive a FIRE membership and access to our new monthly “Members Only” Zoom chats, where we will discuss free speech news and happenings at FIRE. Members will also be able to ask Nico and other FIRE staffers questions.** Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 2:58 Who is CJ Hopkins? 9:35 CJ moves to Germany 15:02 CJ’s work since 2004 18:23 Berlin in 2020 27:18 “The Rise of the New Normal Reich” 34:01 CJ’s book banned in Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands 37:05 German investigation 47:26 German sensitivities to Nazism 50:17 Why didn’t CJ just pay the fine? 54:03 CJ goes to trial 1:03:29 Double-jeopardy / prosecutorial appeal 1:08:49 Does CJ have regrets? 1:12:50 Conclusion Show Notes “” by William L. Shirer “” by William L. Shirer “” by CJ Hopkins “” by CJ Hopkins, a Substack article about the conclusion of his first trial “” by CJ Hopkins, a Substack article about his book being banned on Amazon
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/29957338
info_outline
Ep. 205: An anarchist’s perspective with Michael Malice
02/01/2024
Ep. 205: An anarchist’s perspective with Michael Malice
Michael Malice is a self-described “anarchist without adjectives” and is the author of several books, including most recently “.” He is also the host of the podcast, “” and the subject of the biographical comic book, “.” Michael joins us today to explain why he hates the term “free speech,” and gives his thoughts on McCarthyism, anarchism, Twitter, and more. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 0:46 Who is Michael Malice? 6:45 What is an anarchist without adjectives? 7:26 The definition of anarchism/prominent anarchists 8:01 How do we have free speech in an anarchist society? 16:54 The McCarthy Era 20:38 Students for Justice in Palestine 24:57 Should we advocate for a culture of free speech? 30:44 “Hitman” 34:01 What is the core right under an anarchist system? 36:26 Elon, Twitter, and free speech 44:38 Emma Goldman and McCarthyism 55:27 Cancel culture 1:01:37 From Emma Goldman to Solzhenitsyn 1:05:31 What is it like to live under an authoritarian regime? 1:12:23 The war in Ukraine 1:15:24 Outro Show Notes “” by Michael Malice “” by Rex Feral (pseud.) “” (Encyclopedia Britannica entry) “” by Emma Goldman “” (1919) “” by Michael Malice “” by Alexandr Solzhenitsyn “” by Michael Malice
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/29750583
info_outline
Ep. 204: “Liar in a Crowded Theater” with Jeff Kosseff
01/18/2024
Ep. 204: “Liar in a Crowded Theater” with Jeff Kosseff
Jeff Kosseff is an associate professor of cybersecurity law in the United States Naval Academy’s Cyber Science Department. He is the author of four books including his most recent, “.” He has also written books about anonymous speech and Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 2:30 Jeff’s focus on the First Amendment 4:27 What is Section 230? 9:30 “Liar in a Crowded Theater” 16:27 What does the First Amendment say about lies? 19:35 What speech isn’t protected? 21:27 The Eminem case 27:33 The Dominion lawsuit 38:44 “The United States of Anonymous” 46:39 The impact of age verification laws 49:43 “The Twenty-Six Words that Created the Internet” 58:40 What’s next for Jeff? 1:01:35 Outro Show Notes (2011) (1917) “” by Jeff Kosseff NBC News: “” “” by Jeff Kosseff (2012)
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/29535188
info_outline
Ep. 203: ‘Undefeated’ with Coach Bill Courtney
01/04/2024
Ep. 203: ‘Undefeated’ with Coach Bill Courtney
Bill Courtney is an American football coach, entrepreneur, author, and the subject of the academy award winning 2011 documentary “,” which tells the story of Courtney leading a high school football team in an economically depressed area of Memphis, Tenn. to the playoffs. Courtney is the host of the podcast, in which he shares stories of “ordinary people doing extraordinary things in and around their communities.” His book “” was released in 2014. In this episode, we discuss coaching, the surprise success of “Undefeated,” and how talking across lines of difference can heal a polarized America. Chapters: 0:00 Introduction 2:25 Courtney’s background 5:41 The influence of coaches 16:50 How Courtney ended up at Manassas High School 18:50 Coaching in difficult environments 24:30 Bridging divides 30:12 Forgiveness and grace 35:57 Daryl Davis 42:45 The “death spiral” of division and polarization 53:15 What happened to Manassas after Courtney left? 54:00 How did the filmmakers find Manassas? 59:21 Was the documentary good for the school and the kids?
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/29326443
info_outline
Ep. 202: The backpage.com saga
12/21/2023
Ep. 202: The backpage.com saga
We’re joined today by Elizabeth Nolan Brown, Robert Corn-Revere, and Ronnie London to discuss the history and verdict of the Backpage trial. Backpage.com was an online classified advertising service founded in 2004. As a chief competitor to Craigslist, Backpage allowed users to post ads to categories such as personals, automotive, rentals, jobs and — most notably — adult services. In 2018, the website domain was seized by the FBI and its executives were prosecuted under federal prostitution and money laundering statutes. The trial concluded this year, resulting in the acquittal and convictions of several key executives. Some First Amendment advocates are concerned that the Backpage case represents a “slippery slope” for the prosecution of protected speech and the rights of websites that host user-generated content. Elizabeth Nolan Brown is a senior editor at Reason Magazine, where she has written about the Backpage case in detail. Robert Corn-Revere is FIRE’s chief counsel and a frequent guest of the show. Prior to joining FIRE, he represented Backpage in private practice. Ronnie London is FIRE’s general counsel and another frequent guest of the show. He also represented Backpage when he was in private practice prior to joining FIRE. Timestamps 00:00 Introduction 06:55 The origins of Backpage 10:40 The significance of classified ads 14:52 Are escort ads protected? 19:07 Federal memos indicating Backpage fought child sex trafficking 23:19 Backpage content moderation 34:44 Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act 42:59 “De-banking” and NRA v. Vullo 52:24 The verdict 1:00:34 Could these convictions be overturned? 1:02:49 Outro Show notes
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/29184788
info_outline
Ep. 201: Crisis on Campus - X Space recording
12/12/2023
Ep. 201: Crisis on Campus - X Space recording
Nico and FIRE President & CEO Greg Lukianoff appeared on an X Space to discuss the fallout from the recent congressional hearing on anti-Semitism involving Harvard President Claudine Gay, MIT President Sally Kornbluth, and former Penn President Liz Magill, who resigned last week following backlash over her testimony. Timestamps 0:00- Introduction 1:53 - History of FIRE 5:40 - MIT/Harvard/Penn presidents’ testimony 11:35 - How speech codes are abused and conflict over the definition of genocide 14:05 - Penn “water buffalo” incident 16:20 - Will universities take the wrong lesson from these hearings? 21:25 - Double standards on campus 23:41 - Standards for hostile environment harassment, Title VI 26:43 - Is there a university that is currently handling the situation well? 31:19 - Institutional neutrality 38:29 - Guidance for donors 41:51 - The mission of the university 47:35 - College admissions and political litmus tests 51:20 - Faculty viewpoint diversity 57:17 - The path forward Show notes “” (“anyone who can blow up the pentagon has my vote”) (neo Nazi protest in Illinois) (Greg’s Substack)
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/29040773
info_outline
Ep. 200: The state of free speech
11/30/2023
Ep. 200: The state of free speech
We’re joined by First Amendment attorney Marc Randazza and British journalist Brendan O’Neill to discuss the state of free speech in the United States and Europe. Randazza is a First Amendment attorney and the managing partner at Randazza Legal Group. He has represented controversial figures throughout his career, including Alex Jones, Mike Cernovich, Chuck Johnson, and founder of the neo-nazi website the Daily Stormer, Andrew Anglin. O’Neill is a British author and journalist who served as editor of Spiked from 2007 to September 2021 and is currently its chief political writer. His book, “,” was released in June. He on the podcast on October 20, 2016. Timestamps 0:00 Introduction 6:35 Do lawyers want to defend their enemies any more? 13:00 The oldest form of intolerance 17:19 Israel/Hamas and double standards 32:28 Hate speech laws in Ireland 51:35 Censorship from internet intermediaries 52:33 Debanking and corporate censorship 55:36 PruneYard case 1:01:44 Social media and the internet 1:05:18 The Digital Services Act Show Notes (1980)
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/28868258
info_outline
Ep. 199: Israel, Hamas, and censorship at home
11/09/2023
Ep. 199: Israel, Hamas, and censorship at home
The FIRE team gets together to discuss the October 7 attacks in Israel and the resulting censorship on college campuses in the United States. FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, Director of Campus Rights Advocacy Alex Morey, and General Counsel Ronnie London join host Nico Perrino for the conversation. ** We will conduct a listener survey starting Monday, Nov. 13. “So to Speak” listeners who subscribe to the show’s email list will receive an email with a link to the survey. If you are not an email subscriber, you can subscribe at the bottom of or by subscribing to the general FIRE email list at and noting that you would also like to subscribe to the “So to Speak” list. We appreciate your feedback: It will help us improve the show! Timestamps 5:13 - October 7 attacks on Israel 6:04 - Greg’s initial thoughts 14:58 - Alex’s initial thoughts 20:29 - Protected vs. unprotected expression 28:11 - Statements from donors, students and faculty; double standards 40:49 - Institutional neutrality and the Kalven Report 51:01 - Combating Anti-Semitism, the Daryl Davis example 54:46 - Students for Justice in Palestine 1:01:48 - Tearing down posters Show Notes (The public-facing Google Doc that originally hosted the letter was deleted.) (after recording this episode, Brandeis University derecognized its campus chapter of SJP. ).
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/28559567
info_outline
Ep. 198: 2023-24 Supreme Court Preview
10/25/2023
Ep. 198: 2023-24 Supreme Court Preview
The Supreme Court handed down some big First Amendment victories last term. What lies ahead for the Court in the upcoming term? FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere and FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London join the show to discuss important First Amendment cases that will be heard during the Court’s 2023-24 session. Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 1:47 - Murthy v. Missouri (government jawboning) 14:40 - NRA v. Vullo (government jawboning) 25:49 - NetChoice cases (social media regulation) 46:39 - Social media blocking cases 56:15 - Vidal v. Elster (trademark registration) 1:05:17 - Gonzalez v. Trevino (First Amendment retaliation) Show Transcript: Cases Discussed: (government jawboning) (social media regulation) (social media regulation) (social media blocking) (social media blocking) (trademark registration) (First Amendment retaliation) (government jawboning)
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/28424012
info_outline
Ep. 197 ‘Are cakes speech?’ with Alliance Defending Freedom’s Kristen Waggoner
10/12/2023
Ep. 197 ‘Are cakes speech?’ with Alliance Defending Freedom’s Kristen Waggoner
President, CEO, and general counsel of the Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristen Waggoner, joins us for a discussion on freedom of speech and religious liberty. ADF has played various roles in 74 U.S. Supreme Court victories and since 2011, has won cases before the Court 15 times. According to its website, “ADF is the world's largest legal organization committed to protecting religious freedom, free speech, marriage and family, parental rights, and the sanctity of life.” ADF has litigated many high profile and controversial free speech cases, including the recent Supreme Court case involving a web designer who didn’t want to be compelled to design websites for same-sex weddings. Before that, ADF litigated the 2018 Masterpiece Cakeshop case, which involved a cake designer who similarly didn’t want to provide his services for same-sex weddings on religious grounds. After the initial conversation was recorded, The Washington Post and The New Yorker released articles critical of ADF. Nico and Kristen recorded an additional, brief conversation to address these articles. That is included at the end of the podcast. Transcript: Timestamps: 0:43 - Introduction 6:16 - Kristen’s path to ADF 12:54 - ADF’s international team 14:20 - Pavi Rasanen controversy 19:24 - What does it mean to be a ministry?/blasphemy laws 22:56 - ADF’s Supreme Court cases 26:58 - 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis 28:56 - Public accommodation laws/Masterpiece Cakeshop 40:40 - Pre-enforcement challenges 42:50 - Facial challenges 47:32 - Test cases or fake cases? 49:44 - Yale incident 57:50 - Other campus shoutdowns 1:00:08 - L.M. v. Town of Middleborough 1:14:27 - Kristen addresses WaPo article 1:15:38 - Kristen addresses New Yorker article Related Articles/Podcasts: “,” Jon Swaine and Beth Reinhard (The Washington Post) “” Lathan Watts (ADF, response to The Washington Post) “,” David D. Kirkpatrick (The New Yorker) to Kristen Waggoner Yale incident to Anne Coulter Cornell incident to Ilya Shapiro Georgetown incident to Ian Haworth UAlbany incident “” (“More Perfect” podcast with Julia Longoria) Cases Discussed: (Animal rights activists lawsuit, 2023) (Finnish lawmaker charged with incitement against gay people) ) YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/28289396
info_outline
Ep. 196 ‘The Identity Trap’ by Yascha Mounk
09/27/2023
Ep. 196 ‘The Identity Trap’ by Yascha Mounk
Writer and academic Yascha Mounk argues that a new set of ideas about race, gender, and sexual orientation have overtaken society, giving rise to a rigid focus on identity in our national debate. In his new book, “,” Yascha seeks to take these ideas seriously, understand their origin, dissect their merits and failings, and offer a path forward to avoid what he calls “the identity trap.” On today’s show, Mounk previews his book and explains how the identity trap harms freedom of speech. Mounk is known for his work on the rise of populism and the crisis of liberal democracy. He is a professor of the practice of international affairs at Johns Hopkins University and the author of five books. He is also the founder of the digital magazine , a contributing editor at The Atlantic, and a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. Transcript: Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 1:35 - Origins of “the identity trap” 8:48 - What is “identity synthesis?” 12:26 - Is “cultural Marxism” a thing? / The intellectual history of identity synthesis 27:47 - Critical race theory 32:30 - Free speech culture 40:22 - Speech and violence 47:58 - The Law of Group Polarization 52:27 - How to escape the identity trap Discussed intellectuals: (Rufo’s book, “,” and Nico’s review, “”) (article: “”) YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/28161011
info_outline
Ep. 195 ‘Don’t Tread on Me,’ misgendering, cancel culture, and three strikes for Texas
09/07/2023
Ep. 195 ‘Don’t Tread on Me,’ misgendering, cancel culture, and three strikes for Texas
FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff and FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London join the show to preview Greg’s new co-authored book on cancel culture and to discuss recent free speech cases and headlines: Transcript: “,” by Greg Lukianoff and Rikki Schlott (out Oct. 17) () YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27973149
info_outline
Ep. 194 Harvey Silverglate, the beatnik criminal defense attorney
08/24/2023
Ep. 194 Harvey Silverglate, the beatnik criminal defense attorney
Harvey Silverglate is a criminal defense and civil liberties attorney. He is also the co-founder of FIRE. On today’s show, Harvey defends the work of criminal defense attorneys, explaining why even guilty people must have the right to a robust legal defense. He also shares stories from his life, from growing up in Brooklyn to defending Vietnam War protesters to co-founding FIRE. YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27836412
info_outline
Ep. 193 Can you still have a debate in high school debate?
08/10/2023
Ep. 193 Can you still have a debate in high school debate?
High school debate is considered an ideal extracurricular activity for aspiring lawyers, politicians, or anyone seeking to learn the tools of effective communication and persuasion. But a slew of recent reports argue that high school debate is being captured by political ideology, rendering certain arguments off-limits, some debate topics undebatable, and ad hominem attacks fair game. Debate judges disclose their judging paradigms by saying things like, “I will listen to conservative-leaning arguments, but be careful,” or, “Before anything else, including being a debate judge, I am a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. . . . I cannot check the revolutionary proletarian science at the door when I’m judging.” Some debates even devolve into personal attacks, spurred on by judges who say they “will consider indictments of an opponent on the basis that they have done [or] said something racist, gendered, [or] -phobic in their personal behavior.” On today’s show, we’re joined by two former high school debaters who are dismayed by these trends. James Fishback is the founder of , which hosts free debate tournaments for students in Florida. Matthew Adelstein is a rising sophomore studying philosophy at the University of Michigan and publishes , a newsletter about utilitarianism. Show notes: “” by James Fishback “” by James Fishback “” by Maya Bodnick Nico’s current reading list on critical theory: “” by Stuart Jeffries and “” by Christopher F. Rufo YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27709005
info_outline
Ep. 192 Free speech at the Supreme Court
07/27/2023
Ep. 192 Free speech at the Supreme Court
We review the Supreme Court’s free speech cases during the 2022-23 term and speculate on what’s in store for the next term. FIRE Vice President of Litigation Darpana Sheth guest hosts and is joined by FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere and FIRE General Counsel Ronnie London. This episode was recorded before a virtual live audience on July 20. . Cases discussed: YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27576567
info_outline
Ep. 191 Civil liberties and Civil War
07/13/2023
Ep. 191 Civil liberties and Civil War
In the last episode of the “So to Speak” podcast, we traced the dramatic story of free speech in the United States from colonial America to the abolitionists' campaign to abolish slavery. In this week’s episode, we pick up where we left off and explore the complicated history and legacy of civil liberties during the American Civil War. Professor and author Joseph R. Fornieri and FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere join the show this week to unpack Abraham Lincoln’s justifications for suspending civil liberties and the important lesson that, in war, civil liberties can be hard to uphold, and our rights can be difficult to defend. Show notes: “” by Allen Guelzo “” by Eve Errickson (The Lincoln Cottage) “” by Mark E. Neeley, Jr. “” by William H. Rehnquist “” (The Bill of Rights Institute) “” (The Gilder-Lehrman Institute) Join FIRE on July 20th at 3:00 PM EST for a special live-streamed episode of the "So to Speak" podcast about the Supreme Court's free speech decisions from this past term. Hear from FIRE’s Darpana Sheth, Bob Corn-Revere, and Ronnie London on what these decisions mean for free expression, (and maybe even for you), and ask the panel anywhatever burning questions you may have. YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27444723
info_outline
Ep. 190 Free speech and Abolitionism
06/28/2023
Ep. 190 Free speech and Abolitionism
Last Constitution Day, we traced the origins of free speech in the United States from colonial America to the ratification of the Bill of Rights in 1791. In this episode, we jump forward to the antebellum period, where abolitionists such as Frederick Douglass, John Quincy Adams, William Lloyd Garrison, and Angelina Grimké clashed with pro-slavery advocates over the monumental issue of slavery. Journalist and author Damon Root, FIRE Senior Fellow Jacob Mchangama, and Washington and Lee University professor Lucas Morel join the show this week to explore how free speech and the free press became the essential tools in the abolitionists’ campaign for freedom. Show notes: “” by Jacob Mchangama “” by Damon Root “” by Lucas Morel (Persuasion) “” by Federick Douglass (National Constitution Center) “” (The First Amendment Encyclopedia) “” by Frederick Douglass (Teaching American History) “” (Ford Foundation) YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27319116
info_outline
Ep. 189 Why should we care about punk rock?
06/14/2023
Ep. 189 Why should we care about punk rock?
Nico knows very little about punk rock. On today’s show, Reason magazine’s Nick Gillespie and FIRE Vice President of Communications Matt Harwood do their best to explain to Nico why he and other free speech advocates should care about punk rock. Transcript: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27148716
info_outline
Ep. 188 How to make a winning free speech argument
06/01/2023
Ep. 188 How to make a winning free speech argument
Winning in the court of public opinion is hard. On today’s show, founder Bob Ewing shares communications strategies that anyone — including free speech advocates — can use to win in the marketplace of ideas. Prior to founding the Ewing School, Bob was director of communications for the Institute for Justice and pioneered a communications training program for the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. Bob is also the author of the Substack, which Nico highly recommends. Bob first shared his ideas on effective communication with host Nico Perrino over lunch in May 2013. Some of those ideas went on to shape FIRE’s communications strategy for the next decade. Transcript: YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/27005733
info_outline
Ep. 187 Dominion vs. Fox lawyers reflect on historic case
05/15/2023
Ep. 187 Dominion vs. Fox lawyers reflect on historic case
On April 18, Fox News to pay Dominion Voting Systems $787.5 million to settle a defamation lawsuit stemming from allegations of voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election. The historic settlement came just before the trial was set to begin in a case many saw as having significant First Amendment implications. In this exclusive conversation, attorneys for Fox and Dominion join First Amendment attorney Lee Levine to reflect on what led to the case, its outcome, and the arguments they would have made had the case gone to trial. is a founding partner of Clare Locke LLP and was counsel to Dominion. is co-executive chairman of Winston & Strawn and was counsel for Fox News. The conversation was organized and presented by on Tuesday, May 9. Show notes: YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/26845926
info_outline
Ep. 186 Killer Mike on free speech, racial justice, and Rap on Trial
04/27/2023
Ep. 186 Killer Mike on free speech, racial justice, and Rap on Trial
Rocking their tuxedos in preparation for the 2023 FIRE gala in New York City, Host Nico Perrino speaks with rapper and free speech advocate Killer Mike about his journey toward learning the value of free expression. They also discuss the importance of free speech in American history, the value of engaging and arguing with those who disagree with us, why free speech was critical to gaining racial equality, defending rappers and artists being prosecuted for their lyrics, and why polarization is more dangerous than anything anybody can say. The interview is followed by Killer Mike’s keynote speech. Watch Killer Mike's keynote speech at the 2023 FIRE Gala in New York City: YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/26671356
info_outline
Ep. 185 Sex, drugs, and free speech (Bob Guccione Jr. and Nick Gillespie)
04/20/2023
Ep. 185 Sex, drugs, and free speech (Bob Guccione Jr. and Nick Gillespie)
Does music censorship still happen in America? Is “sex, drugs, and rock ‘n’ roll” dead? Is transgression in art and culture celebrated anymore (or was it ever)? From Beyonce and Taylor Swift to Ozzy Osbourne and Robin Thicke, SPIN magazine founder Bob Guccione Jr. and Reason magazine Editor at Large Nick Gillespie join a lively discussion of our current moment in pop culture. Bob also shares some war stories from his fight against the Parents Music Resource Center in the 1980s. Transcript: YouTube: Twitter: Facebook: Instagram: Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/26594661
info_outline
Ep. 184 What’s going on in Florida?
03/28/2023
Ep. 184 What’s going on in Florida?
What’s going on in Florida? Host Nico Perrino and his FIRE colleagues break down the latest efforts to censor speech in the Sunshine State. Show notes: “” “” “” “” Miami Herald: “” by Nicholas Nehamas and Ana Ceballos YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/26368512
info_outline
Ep. 183 The Stanford shout-down with David Lat
03/22/2023
Ep. 183 The Stanford shout-down with David Lat
UPDATE: Just as this podcast was to be published, Stanford Law School Dean Jenny Martinez sent to the law school community outlining a path forward for the school, including updating school policies to prevent future speaker disruptions and mandatory student free speech training. She also announced that Associate Dean Tirien Steinbach is on leave. – The heckling began almost as soon as Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals Judge Kyle Duncan started his invited lecture at Stanford Law School on March 9. Signs in the audience read “RESPECT TRANS RIGHTS,” “FEDSUCK,” “BE PRONOUN NOT PRO-BIGOT.” What transpired over the next 40 minutes captured national headlines and raised questions about the state of free speech at America’s law schools. David Lat writes commentary about law and the legal profession for . Until 2019, he was an editor at the legal news website Above the Law, which he founded. Prior to his journalism career, David was a practicing lawyer. Show notes: “” by David Lat “” by David Lat “” by David Lat “” by Nadine Strossen and Greg Lukianoff (University of Chicago report) YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@freespeechtalk Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/freespeechtalk Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freespeechtalk/ Email us:
/episode/index/show/sotospeak/id/26308962