Animal Personhood: Wayne Hsiung's Legal Battle Beyond the Courtroom

In this inspiring episode, host Alison Burns sits down with Wayne Hsiung, a prominent attorney, co-founder of Direct Action Everywhere (DxE), and the force behind his new initiative, The Simple Heart. Wayne shares his remarkable journey from a top academic and lawyer to a leading animal rights activist. He explains his philosophy that law is not a fixed concept but a dynamic force shaped by social movements.

This conversation explores the pivotal moments that led him to embrace direct action, including a powerful childhood experience with his family's dog and a jarring trip to China. Wayne delves into his strategy of using the courtroom as a stage for public opinion, likening his approach to historical figures like Susan B. Anthony and Martin Luther King Jr.. He also discusses the nuances of legal victories and losses, the significance of his California appeal, and the contrasting approaches of the animal rights movements in the US and the UK. Wayne's insights offer a powerful and hopeful vision for the future of animal law and personhood.

 

 

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Timestamps

• 00:00 - 02:22 — Introduction of Wayne Hsiung and his background.

• 02:22 - 05:18 — The professional background: How a lawyer sees the law as a social construct.

• 05:18 - 09:58 — The personal reason: A childhood experience with bullying and a pivotal moment with a dog in China.

• 09:58 - 18:48 — The pivotal moments: From a failing vegan outreach to entering a slaughterhouse.

• 18:48 - 25:11 — Using the courtroom as a platform: The strategy of combining legal challenges with public opinion.

• 25:11 - 28:03 — The effectiveness of direct action and the attention-grabbing nature of courtroom drama.

• 28:03 - 34:18 — Legal setbacks as a tool for progress: The strategy behind the California appeal and the concept of credibility-enhancing displays.

• 34:18 - 38:46 — The significance of the Nonhuman Rights Project and the legal argument for animal personhood.

• 38:46 - 41:57 — The concept of the "reasonable person" and the opportunity presented by outdated laws.

• 41:57 - 45:17 — International activism: Differences between the animal rights movements in the US and the UK.

• 45:17 - 47:45 — The future of the movement: The importance of institutional scaffolding and learning from past mistakes.

• 47:45 - 52:22 — A hopeful message for the future of the animal rights movement and actionable advice for listeners.

 

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Topics Covered

• The Law as a Social Construct: Wayne’s legal background and the "mythology" that law is a fixed thing. He argues that social movements, not just legislation or judicial decisions, are the primary drivers of legal change.

• Personal Motivation: A childhood marked by bullying and racism shaped his worldview. A transformative trip to China, where he saw a dog in a restaurant, made him realize that if a rule is wrong, it must be broken.

• The Power of Direct Action: Wayne recounts how his early vegan outreach efforts were ineffective. A pivotal experience of walking into a slaughterhouse showed him that these boundaries were not as "impenetrable" as he once believed.

• Courtroom Strategy: The concept of using the courtroom as a platform for public opinion, drawing parallels with historic figures like Susan B. Anthony and her trial.

• Losing to Win: Wayne argues that legal losses can be more valuable than victories. He introduces the concepts of
  credibility-enhancing displays and the backlash effect, explaining how his incarceration and felony conviction in California have generated enormous public support.

• Animal Personhood: The significance of the Nonhuman Rights Project's amicus curiae brief in his appeal. Wayne challenges the legal idea that animals are "something" rather than "someone," and draws a parallel to the Dred Scott case and the fight for personhood for people of color.

• International Differences: The contrast between the US movement's focus on legal defense and the UK movement's emphasis on direct action. Wayne highlights the "dishonesty" element in UK theft law as a huge opportunity for activists and lawyers.

• Hope for the Future: Wayne expresses his confidence that institutionalized animal exploitation will be abolished within his lifetime. He shares his advice for activists: "find your voice, find some friends and fight like hell".

 

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Key Quotes

• "The primary mechanism to which it's changed has been social movements, political movements."

• "If this is the rule, this rule must be broken."

• "There's something about the battle in the courtroom that really draws an enormous amount of attention."

• "I suspect...that losing in court is more valuable than winning."

• "If a corporation can be a person, so can an animal."

• "This is one area where the law just is not in alignment with the basic common sense intuitions that most people have."

• "I would be stunned if by the end of my lifetime, factory farming hadn't been completely abolished."

 

 

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