Two Ways of Knowing: How Merging Science & Indigenous Wisdom Fuels New Discoveries with Rosa Vásquez Espinoza
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
Release Date: 11/19/2025
Wide Boundary News: Peak Oil (Not!), Peak Dispatchability, and WEF Risks
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
This week’s Frankly is another edition of Nate’s Wide Boundary News series, where he invites listeners to view the constant churn of headlines through a wider-boundary lens. Today’s edition features reflections on a new peak in crude oil production, the growth of non-dispatchable electricity, and a report recently released by the World Economic Forum assessing global risks. Nate ties each topic to the larger story of the Great Simplification, updating listeners on what pathways might be available to pursue the long-term stability of humanity in the biosphere. What factors have...
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The Consumption Pyramid
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
This week’s Frankly unpacks humans’ current identification with the label “consumer.” Consumption is something much deeper and more nuanced than shopping or spending. Nate highlights the ways that it shows up across our whole lives – from basic needs and stability to status and mental escape. He outlines a “consumption pyramid” framework that acts as a map for the different layers of consumption present in daily life, emphasizing that they vary in dependency, reliability, and necessity. This episode also explores why this understanding is especially relevant in a world that will...
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How to Read the Signs of Collapse: Economic Stagnation, Resource Scarcity, and Europe’s Industrial Decline with Balázs Matics
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
Collapse has long been discussed in the public imagination as something that happens suddenly, immediately turning the world upside down. But history shows that collapse is more often characterized by the slow unraveling of a civilization. Usually, this is due to some combination of resource scarcity, economic stagnation, and compounding disruptions to productive capacity – yet it’s barely perceptible in the day-to-day lives of the people within it. What are the signs that we could be living through such a moment right now, and if we are, how does history tell us to prepare for what’s to...
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A Country of Geniuses: Anthropic CEO’s Warnings, Plus Wide-Boundary Considerations on AI
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
Last week there was so much news Nate recorded two Franklies – this is the second of those, which shares his reflections on a recent seminal essay posted by Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei, likening Artificial Intelligence as a "rite of passage" for the human species rather than just a narrow technological breakthrough. Amodei posits the possibility that we are now in what Carl Sagan once called a phase of “technological adolescence,” wherein humans’ technologies and tools become powerful enough to reshape or destabilize civilization faster than our collective wisdom can keep up. As a...
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Wide Boundary News: Japan, Silver, Venezuela, and More – the Biophysical Phase Shift Cometh
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
This week’s Frankly inaugurates a new category for videos on The Great Simplification platform, Wide Boundary News, in which Nate invites listeners to view the constant churn of headlines through a wider-boundary lens. As we are increasingly inundated with vast quantities of news (and nervous system dysregulation!), it becomes important to be able to tease out a thread on how they interconnect. The stories we tell ourselves about progress, growth, and stability no longer perfectly line up with the biophysical reality beneath them – in Nate’s words, ‘A biophysical phase shift cometh.’...
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The New Generation of Environmental Leadership: Stubborn Optimism, Tending Your Inner Fire, and Why Hope Is Not Enough with Xiye Bastida
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
For many people reading this, the crises we discuss on this podcast – from ecological instability to financial collapse – often feel like a distant problem in the future. But for the youth of today, managing the impact of these situations will define most of their lives, and many have already dedicated their careers to mitigating the worst outcomes. What do the leading young voices envision for the future, and what are they doing today to make that a reality? In this episode, Nate is joined by indigenous environmental justice activist and Planetary Guardian, Xiye Bastida, to discuss...
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The Creature in the Machine | Frankly 120
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
In this week’s episode, Nate reflects on his experience with knee surgery and being a “creature in the machine” (the Superorganism). He touches on the often-forgotten nature of our physical existence in a world dominated by cognitive labor and abstractions, exploring the tension between gratitude for the gains of modern medicine and knowledge of the hidden energetic cost of these technologies. Alongside these personal reflections, Nate unpacks his thoughts on some current political events and considers timely questions of power, legitimacy, and social fragmentation in a post-peak...
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Arms Race or the Human Race? Governance in the Age of AI, Nuclear Threats, and Geopolitical Brinkmanship | RR 21
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
Humans have shaped the world more than any other species in existence, largely due to our ability to coordinate and work together as a unit – in other words, to govern ourselves. This means that, while human societies are at the center of the many crises we face today, we are also the key to navigating through them safely. But this is only possible if we’re able to hold the foundations of our governance together: communication, agency, and remembering our shared humanity. What is the current state of our ability to do this, and what policy mechanisms and agreements are needed to navigate...
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Technology and Wealth: The Straw, the Siphon, and the Sieve | Frankly 119
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
In this week’s Frankly, Nate explores the relationship between technology and wealth when viewed through a global biophysical lens. He uses the visualization of a straw, siphon, and sieve to describe how technology enables the acceleration of physical resource extraction and the concentration and filtering of resulting ‘wealth’ towards the human species. Running contrary to the commonly-held idea that technology automatically creates monetary wealth (and therefore prosperity), this episode asks listeners to view real wealth as the underlying stocks and flows that make life on Earth...
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Why the West Can’t Defend Itself: How Material Scarcity Is Reshaping Global Power with Craig Tindale
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens
For decades, the West has outsourced its own material production to other countries, in favor of lower costs and short-term returns over more expensive, long-duration investments like mining and manufacturing. But while this has seemed like a success on the surface, it has left us with a society based on consumption, unable to produce what we need on our own. What are the deeper costs of this long-term offshoring – including for our geopolitical, climate, and technological ambitions? In this conversation, Nate is joined by materials expert and investor Craig Tindale, who explores the...
info_outlineFor centuries, modern science has relied on the scientific method to better understand the world around us. While helpful in many contexts, the scientific method is also objective, controlled, and reductionist – often breaking down complex systems into smaller parts for analysis and isolating subjects to test hypotheses. In contrast, indigenous wisdom is deeply contextual, rooted in lived experience, and emphasizes a reciprocal, integrated relationship with the rest of the natural world, viewing all parts of the system as interconnected. What becomes possible when we combine the strengths of each of these knowledge systems as we navigate humanity’s biggest challenges?
In this episode, Nate is joined by Rosa Vásquez Espinoza, a Peruvian chemical biologist with Andean-Amazonian indigenous roots, to discuss how she is actively merging modern science and indigenous knowledge through innovative research in the Amazon Rainforest. Rosa explains how the integration of these two ways of knowing unveil more effective paths forward for conservation and ecological wisdom that simultaneously offer economic opportunity for the people who live there. She also shares her biggest successes to date bringing this vision to life, including documenting and protecting Earth’s oldest known bee, the stingless bee.
Were the indigenous people of ancient cultures the original scientists? How can modern science learn from indigenous knowledge – and vice versa? And, rather than siloing ourselves into one ‘right’ way of seeing the world, what types of insights become possible when we learn to embrace the validity and importance of multiple ways of learning and knowing?
(Conversation recorded on October 22nd, 2025)
About Rosa Vásquez Espinoza:
Dr. Rosa Vásquez Espinoza is a Peruvian chemical biologist, National Geographic Explorer, and award-winning artist whose work bridges indigenous knowledge and modern science to protect the Amazon Rainforest and its communities. With Andean-Amazonian indigenous roots, she is the founder of Amazon Research Internacional, where she has pioneered groundbreaking research on extreme Amazonian ecosystems and biodiversity, while advocating for policies that recognize the intrinsic value of nature.
Rosa was the first microbial explorer of the Amazonian Boiling River, led the first chemical analysis of stingless bees and their medicinal honey in Peru, and contributed to scientific advancements that supported Peru’s Law 32235, granting legal protection to stingless bees for the first time. Her work as an International Ambassador for the Ashaninka people further highlights her commitment to conservation and indigenous advocacy. She also co-authored the first scientific paper with Ashaninka leaders, blending traditional wisdom with modern science to safeguard the rainforest.
Rosa’s passion for exploration and conservation is reflected in her new book, The Spirit of the Rainforest: How Indigenous Wisdom and Scientific Curiosity Reconnects Us to the Natural World, which is available now.
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