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The Gun Room: Episode 20

The Gun Room

Release Date: 08/06/2021

TGR: Episode 37, Lars Jacob show art TGR: Episode 37, Lars Jacob

The Gun Room

In Episode 37 of TGR we sit down with Lars Jacob of Wild Surroundings. We speak on hunting out of layout boats, shotgun fitting, bird hunting, and at length about the unique underhammer rifle, which Lars built a number of in his early career. 

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TGR: Episode 36, Diggory Hadoke show art TGR: Episode 36, Diggory Hadoke

The Gun Room

Joel has the opportunity to catch up with Diggory Hadoke, author, shooter, and firearms and hunting advocate. Diggory has written several notable titles focused on vintage British sporting arms including hammer guns, vintage guns, and the British boxlock. Diggory works at vintageguns.co.uk and is an absolute wealth of knowledge when it comes to the history and development of modern cartridge arms. The conversation focuses on the history and development of sporting arms from around 1850 through the turn of the century and beyond. If you have ever had an interest in early cartridge arms...

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The Gun Room: Episode 35 show art The Gun Room: Episode 35

The Gun Room

In this episode of The Gun Room, Joel talks with Brian Dudley of BMD Gunstocks. They talk about Brian's fine art background and how he transitioned into firearms full-time. The conversation covers a variety of topics related to stock making including original finishes, shaping, and finishing stocks including a good conversation about stock checkering.  

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The Gun Room: Episode 34 show art The Gun Room: Episode 34

The Gun Room

Part 2 of a discussion with Nick Larson of The Birdshot Podcast. Nick and Joel talk about Nick's turkey gun project and the jitters surrounding drilling into your gunstock. The discussion moves into progress and updates from the Upland Gun Company where we talk about their new offerings and the process of creating your own upland shotgun.

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The Gun Room: Episode 33 show art The Gun Room: Episode 33

The Gun Room

To me, the Savage 24 represents youth and the carefree existence that places a child in the woods, free to roam as they see fit. It harkens to an older time when this child's feral existence was the norm rather than the exception. Going out the backdoor of a white farmhouse with a few .22LR rounds and a few .410 shells in his coat pockets, looking for a rabbit or maybe a partridge for the table. The gun is kept in the corner of the mudroom, alongside boots and coats, a scruffy dog waits outside the door, tail wagging, waiting to accompany the boy as they head out into the big wide world.

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The Gun Room: Episode 32 show art The Gun Room: Episode 32

The Gun Room

Welcome Back to The Gun Room! We have the opportunity to go to Brays Island in South Carolina where we visit the home of Eric Klein, the keeper of a very fine collection of early American side-by-side shotguns. Both originally from New Jersey, Eric and Joel cover a variety of topics including the philosophy of collecting vs accumulating as well as some good discussion with a focus on Parkers and Ithacas. Eric takes us on a tour of his gun room and shows us some very unique guns in his collection. 

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The Gun Room: Episode 31 show art The Gun Room: Episode 31

The Gun Room

Joel and Gregg have the opportunity to catch up in the midst of the bird hunting season on Episode 31 of The Gun Room. Gregg keeps up the Dogs and Doubles webpage as well as keeping the upland world abreast of some of the better deals in the sporting shotgun market. His posts about 5 guns you shouldn't miss are surely a hit for anyone in the market for a fine shotgun. After a quick season update, Gregg and Joel dive into a discussion surrounding double guns and the current state of the gun market.

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The Gun Room: Episode 30 show art The Gun Room: Episode 30

The Gun Room

Join us for a conversation with Amanda Rutherford of Zeb gunmaking. Amanda attended gunsmithing school in Colorado where a fortuitous trip to the Dallas Safari Club show led to an apprenticeship with Chuck Grace as a stockmaker. Amanda and I discuss some of the finer points of the master/apprentice relationship, the value of gunsmithing school, and her journey to becoming a gun maker on her own. https://www.zebgunmaking.com/

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The Gun Room: Episode 29 show art The Gun Room: Episode 29

The Gun Room

Proof marks can be our best link to a guns history, much like a passport that helps reveal a bit about the gun and its past. They can tell where the gun came from, where it travelled in its lifetime, and so much more. They are certainly one of my favorite aspects of old shotguns and rifles.

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The Gun Room: Episode 28 show art The Gun Room: Episode 28

The Gun Room

One of the most common things folks do when inspecting a potential shotgun purchase is shoulder the gun. It seems an interesting thing that ‘gun mount’ is such a crucial part of the gun purchase, but so many folks simply shoulder a gun and assign a non-quantitative value to it: “oh this shoulders nice” or “feels right”. So many of those folks realize that a gun must ‘fit’ but very few actually know or understand their own dimensions and how they translate to a gunstock.

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The 2021 Barret Jackson Auto Auction in Las Vegas was one to remember. With a record-breaking $48 million in sales, it would seem that there is quite a market for unique automobiles. It has always intrigued me that in the auto world it seems that the items of the highest auction block value can be relatively new production cars or just as easily classics from 70 years ago. In this most recent auction, three wildly different autos broke the 1 million dollar ceiling. They were a 2015 Mclaren P1, a 1957 Mercedes 300SL Roadster, and a 2019 Ford GT. All amazing vehicles, feats of modern engineering and technology, lovingly cared for, and I’d imagine prized possessions of their owners. I am Joel Penkala and this is 10 Minutes on the Philosophy of Gun Restoration.

You might be saying, what’s this got to do with guns, but bear with me. From what I can gather, the McLaren and the Ford GT are likely original condition vehicles. The GT had 21 miles on the odometer so that’s a safe bet. The 2015 McLaren probably had more miles, but chances are it was still near original. Now we come to the 1957 Mercedes 300SL. The Mercedes, though a stunning original example, is clearly no longer in original condition. I pulled a bit from the write up on the auction website 

After a careful mechanical overview, new sway bar bushings and new motor mounts were installed, and the brakes were serviced, cleaned and adjusted. During the brake inspection, it was noted that there were no leaks and correct materials were used during restoration. Finished in the iconic 300SL color combination of DB 180 Silver Gray Metallic with a red leather interior. The silver paint was mixed with the correct metallic flake and was uniformly applied. The finish remains glossy and smooth with only light signs of use since the restoration.”

I would argue that based on this single example (forgive the small sample size) that restored vehicles can and do command attention and dollars on the auction block. It seems though, in the world of classic firearms, a “restored” version commands a different value than one in “original condition” even if “proper finish and the correct materials”  are used during restoration.

I’ll admit that I am looking at this question of gun restoration from the ruby lens of my own experience. I got into gunsmithing and have spent countless hours performing restoration services on my own guns. Dad and I were always looking for a ”gunsmith special”; a shotgun or rifle that was abused and misused, but still had the potential to be brought back. This desire was motivated by our own financial limitations, or I should say my financial limitations restricted what I could buy. Any gun in high condition was hard to justify. Not to mention they did not afford the opportunity to do what it was that we set out to do- work on guns. Tear them down, learn how they work. Fix parts, replace parts, make parts. We endeavored to find a project that represented a challenge and pitted our own abilities (pun intended) against these relics relegated to the parts pile.

It would be hard to condemn us for what we did. The majority of our projects were inoperable, sold to us as ‘parts guns’. More than once I had to sign a paper that stated that I would not use a gun I was buying until I had it looked at by a competent gunsmith. But, in my reading, I would come to find that there was a contingent of folks in the gun world that seemed to question the philosophy of restoration. If they didn’t, why was it so important that a Parker I looked at on gunsinternational was a “DelGrego restoration”. And why is that restoration deemed less valuable than an original gun? 

Perhaps I am a victum of my own desire, creating my own reality so to speak. I know that even in those early days I could recognize a ‘hack job’ garage special. A replaced forearm that is clearly not to original spec. Maybe made of maple instead of walnut. Or an action that has been blued where the original was case color- or worse, spraypainted black. I’d like to think that the work we did was at the very least, in the image of the guns original condition. Sure I didn’t have the ability to case harden the action on my single shot 20ga project. It was early in the Dad and Lad gunsmithign days, and heat treating was beyond our abilities at the time. Even still, we determined how to chemical color the action using some heat and products at our disposal. Is it truly original? No of course not, but the results provided created a gun that is far more pleasing to the eye.

I have had the opportunity to hold a number of restorations, from a variety of talented folks. I do believe that if a restoration is completed in a way that remains true to how the guns were delivered from the factory, there is merit to this work. There is so much nuance to this process though, starting from knowing exactly what a gun looked like, from the factory. What shades and colors were produced by factory case hardening? Were the patterns striped or blotchy? Were the barrels a deep dark blue or were they more black? Shiny or a bit dull? What checkering patterns were used and what lines per inch were they?

I am as guilty of this lack of knowledge as any other hack job garage smith. I don’t necessarily know what the gun looked like when I start my work. Perhaps this is because I understand that my work will never be a true restoration in that sense. I am in the business of bringing a gun back from the grave. Perhaps, with a lifetime of practice, I could hone my skills to the level of factory original. At this point in time, I don’t have the desire or inclination to replicate the work of the original craftsmen. My restorations are my own and will carry my mistakes and lack of abilities along with them.

A field grade LC Smith, 12 gauge, with no case color, little blue, and checkering so worn that the lines are nearly gone carries little value. When the gun came to me it was inoperable. I am in the process of recutting the checkering, and to be honest, rather than sanding off what is clearly non-original lines, I am simply chasing what is there. This would be a travesty for some folks, and so it may be. It is my belief that this gun might have had a worse fate if it had not landed in my hands. A restored field grade LC does not carry the value to justify the cost (aka time) to do a proper restoration. Unless of course, the gun carries other value- sentimental value most likely- that might justify the expense.

In my time working in a gunsmithing shop, there were several guns that came to us needing copious amounts of work, that would far exceed the value of the gun- restored or not. It was my job to explain to those folks that they were on the losing end of a deal, and to do so gently so as not to offend anyone’s sensibilities. Typically the discussion would go about as I have laid out so far though the x-factor was always the history with the gun. Was it your fathers, or grandfather’s? Had it been handed down over many generations? I saw guns that had been damaged at the hands of their current custodians. The guilt of damaging a family heirloom is a strong motivator to open one’s wallet and spend the money required to make repairs. 

History and provenance always factor into perceived value. The Mclaren sold at the Barret Auction was owned by Deadmau5, a very successful DJ. I am sure that the celebrity history of the vehicle added to its value. The same way that a particular F Grade AH Fox Shotgun could sell for a whopping $862,500. Now, at the time of this podcast, William Larken Moore has a very fine 12 gauge AH Fox FE for sale- a Philly gun made in 1907. It’s likely that you guessed what I am driving at- the difference between these two guns mechanically may be small, but the difference between these guns owners is very large indeed and reflected in their price. I suspect that the William Larken Gun was never owned by Teddy Roosevelt.

For fun, I looked at the most expensive Fox on Gunsinternational. A $64,000 12 gauge Fox made for William Gough, serial number 6500. William Gough was an engraver himself and an engraver’s son. He worked on Fox, Parker, Winchester, Remington, Marlin, Colt, Meriden, and Aubrey and is a celebrity of note in the gun world. The most interesting thing about this gun though - it is a copy. It has been upgraded and made to look like the original gun. This is noted in the Gunsinternational listing but brings up the not so pretty topic of fakes, imitations, humped-up guns. The underbelly of the gun world- and the art world, fashion world, car world, and so on. I do believe this is part of the issue folks have with restorations. For all but the well trained, a gun can be made to look original, or more than original, a Field Grade gun can be upgraded to a lettered grade. Or as is the case here, upgraded to mirror a gun with history- with provenance. 

And herein lies the bigger issue with restored guns. Its a catch 22 of sorts. A good restoration is one that brings the gun back to its original condition- as it was the day it left the factory. And the best restoration may pass as an original. The problem is when people take advantage of the fact that restorations can be done so well, it is nearly, if not completely impossible to tell the difference. 

It is worth noting that in Europe, particularly in England, it was commonplace to send your gun back to the maker for upkeep. They did not call this a restoration- primarily because the gun was returning to the maker- the original manufacturer - for reapplication of the original finish. Barrels were rebrowned or reblacked. Stocks were attended to- dings and dents steamed and removed, checkering pointed and oil finishes reapplied. Although I am sure there are original examples of guns from across the pond, it is clear that most guns were cleaned up over the years and the view of what it meant to have a gun in original condition is rather different than here in the states. Most guns here never made it back to the factory for refurbishing- either because the service was not offered or because the maker was no out of business.

The complexities of the collector gun world abound. Original, restored, or upgraded, with provenance and celebrity status or not, guns like cars will always have a value that is not simply based on their mechanics. Upgrading a gun may be a gateway to have a facsimile of an original, at a fraction of the price, although like many human endeavors it is when nefarious intent clouds one’s vision that this practice goes off the rails. It is one thing to upgrade a gun and represent it as such. It is completely different to upgrade a gun and/or knowingly misrepresent it as original.

The world of firearms restoration is multifaceted, the idea of upgrading guns even more so. I believe that there is certainly a place for firearm restoration. The idea of bringing something back to life appeals to those of us who enjoy shotguns and rifles both in the field AND when they are apart on our bench. Not to mention the joy I find when I hunt with a gun that I have restored to function. There is something special in those moments afield, which for me, have been inextricably woven into the fabric of my life.