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The Gun Room: Episode 29

The Gun Room

Release Date: 10/08/2021

TGR: Episode 37, Lars Jacob show art TGR: Episode 37, Lars Jacob

The Gun Room

In Episode 37 of TGR we sit down with Lars Jacob of Wild Surroundings. We speak on hunting out of layout boats, shotgun fitting, bird hunting, and at length about the unique underhammer rifle, which Lars built a number of in his early career. 

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TGR: Episode 36, Diggory Hadoke show art TGR: Episode 36, Diggory Hadoke

The Gun Room

Joel has the opportunity to catch up with Diggory Hadoke, author, shooter, and firearms and hunting advocate. Diggory has written several notable titles focused on vintage British sporting arms including hammer guns, vintage guns, and the British boxlock. Diggory works at vintageguns.co.uk and is an absolute wealth of knowledge when it comes to the history and development of modern cartridge arms. The conversation focuses on the history and development of sporting arms from around 1850 through the turn of the century and beyond. If you have ever had an interest in early cartridge arms...

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The Gun Room: Episode 35 show art The Gun Room: Episode 35

The Gun Room

In this episode of The Gun Room, Joel talks with Brian Dudley of BMD Gunstocks. They talk about Brian's fine art background and how he transitioned into firearms full-time. The conversation covers a variety of topics related to stock making including original finishes, shaping, and finishing stocks including a good conversation about stock checkering.  

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The Gun Room: Episode 34 show art The Gun Room: Episode 34

The Gun Room

Part 2 of a discussion with Nick Larson of The Birdshot Podcast. Nick and Joel talk about Nick's turkey gun project and the jitters surrounding drilling into your gunstock. The discussion moves into progress and updates from the Upland Gun Company where we talk about their new offerings and the process of creating your own upland shotgun.

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The Gun Room: Episode 33 show art The Gun Room: Episode 33

The Gun Room

To me, the Savage 24 represents youth and the carefree existence that places a child in the woods, free to roam as they see fit. It harkens to an older time when this child's feral existence was the norm rather than the exception. Going out the backdoor of a white farmhouse with a few .22LR rounds and a few .410 shells in his coat pockets, looking for a rabbit or maybe a partridge for the table. The gun is kept in the corner of the mudroom, alongside boots and coats, a scruffy dog waits outside the door, tail wagging, waiting to accompany the boy as they head out into the big wide world.

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The Gun Room: Episode 32 show art The Gun Room: Episode 32

The Gun Room

Welcome Back to The Gun Room! We have the opportunity to go to Brays Island in South Carolina where we visit the home of Eric Klein, the keeper of a very fine collection of early American side-by-side shotguns. Both originally from New Jersey, Eric and Joel cover a variety of topics including the philosophy of collecting vs accumulating as well as some good discussion with a focus on Parkers and Ithacas. Eric takes us on a tour of his gun room and shows us some very unique guns in his collection. 

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The Gun Room: Episode 31 show art The Gun Room: Episode 31

The Gun Room

Joel and Gregg have the opportunity to catch up in the midst of the bird hunting season on Episode 31 of The Gun Room. Gregg keeps up the Dogs and Doubles webpage as well as keeping the upland world abreast of some of the better deals in the sporting shotgun market. His posts about 5 guns you shouldn't miss are surely a hit for anyone in the market for a fine shotgun. After a quick season update, Gregg and Joel dive into a discussion surrounding double guns and the current state of the gun market.

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The Gun Room: Episode 30 show art The Gun Room: Episode 30

The Gun Room

Join us for a conversation with Amanda Rutherford of Zeb gunmaking. Amanda attended gunsmithing school in Colorado where a fortuitous trip to the Dallas Safari Club show led to an apprenticeship with Chuck Grace as a stockmaker. Amanda and I discuss some of the finer points of the master/apprentice relationship, the value of gunsmithing school, and her journey to becoming a gun maker on her own. https://www.zebgunmaking.com/

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The Gun Room: Episode 29 show art The Gun Room: Episode 29

The Gun Room

Proof marks can be our best link to a guns history, much like a passport that helps reveal a bit about the gun and its past. They can tell where the gun came from, where it travelled in its lifetime, and so much more. They are certainly one of my favorite aspects of old shotguns and rifles.

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The Gun Room: Episode 28 show art The Gun Room: Episode 28

The Gun Room

One of the most common things folks do when inspecting a potential shotgun purchase is shoulder the gun. It seems an interesting thing that ‘gun mount’ is such a crucial part of the gun purchase, but so many folks simply shoulder a gun and assign a non-quantitative value to it: “oh this shoulders nice” or “feels right”. So many of those folks realize that a gun must ‘fit’ but very few actually know or understand their own dimensions and how they translate to a gunstock.

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 Barrel Proofing

Dad and I were browsing the used gun rack at a big box store on a trip through Pennsylvania a few years back when we happened upon a double gun that caught our eye. The gun was a 12ga with light color walnut stock and forend. On closer inspection, we saw a moderate amount of hand-cut engraving, as well as hand-cut checkering on the buttery walnut stock. An older gun made in Europe, the tag read ‘BLNE’, as it is sometimes referred to in gun parlance or a boxlock non-ejector. We speculated on the country of origins and details of the gun’s specifications until we could get the attention of one of the clerks to ask if it was OK to take the barrels off the action and check the proof marks.

Spend any amount of time in a gun shop that deals with guns from Europe and you will inevitably hear someone say “check the proof marks”. This statement broadly suggests checking the markings on the barrel flats and action watertable(on a shotgun). These are the two areas that gunmakers typically apply stampings pertaining to original specifications of the gun like chamber length or choke. It is also the area where proof houses apply proof marks on a gun. 

Proofing is a type of (potentially) destructive testing whereby a firearm is discharged with appropriate dimension ammunition that has been overloaded with powder on purpose. Shooting a round overcharged with powder produces higher than normal pressure inside the barrels and action when the gun is fired. If the gun can withstand the increased pressure produced by an ‘overloaded’ round, it will withstand the significantly lower pressure of standard factory ammunition. Guns are measured before and after testing and fired remotely while being held in fixtures inside secured rooms for safety reasons. Proofing is a pass or fail test, there is no middle ground. Guns that fail may experience a bulged or split barrel, or in extreme situations, action failure can result in shattered parts.

Proofing firearms began hundreds of years ago in Europe(1637 in the UK) and continues to be conducted as described above. 14 countries in Europe have adopted standards laid out by CIP (think international proofing organization) which now dictate the pressures various firearms need to withstand to make proof.

Each proof house in Europe developed its own proof marks. These marks changed over the years and can help date a gun or determine a gun proofed with black powder or modern smokeless powder. Most European guns were proofed in the country in which they were made, or at least the country where they were assembled to the point that they could be shot. As a result, the proof establishes the maker’s country, and in cases where countries had more than one proof house, will determine which proof house the gun was tested in. For example, 6 different German proof houses are Ulm, Hannover, Kiel, Munich, Cologne, and Berlin each of which has a different proof mark.

Jumping back across the pond, the obvious question becomes, “Where are the proof marks on Granddad’s old Ithaca Flues?(insert any american gun name here)” Despite the fact that Europe developed a comprehensive proof testing standard, the United States has left that responsibility on the shoulders of the manufacturers, who for the most part, have held up their end of the deal. American shotguns and rifles are tested, though the extent of testing is left up to discretion. This is not to imply that American made guns are unsafe, but rather the imputis of burden is on the makers themselves to ensure the end safety of the user. Makers could test every gun, or simply choose random samples to test. And, in todays complex and advanced manufacturing facilities, there are a myriad of other tests that can be done to ensure the quality, durability, and safety of a firearm.

Back in the gun store in Pennsylvania Dad and I took a look at the markings on the double gun that caught our eye. Typically on the flat sections of the action and barrel you will find several different marks. The serial number, if the gun has one, will be located here. Usually it is stamped on both action and barrels of a shotgun, and can also be stamped into the forend iron as well as the forend and stock wood(though always hidden where you have to remove them to see the numbers). On fine guns, many parts are also stamped with the serial number or at a minimum the last three digits of the serial number. On guns where hand fitting is required, not all parts can be transferred between guns; this helps in the factory to ensure the correct internal parts stay with the action in which they fit. The importance here is taking note if these numbers are matching throughout the gun. Mismatched numbers indicates that the gun has been composed of parts that were not originally manufactured together, which in turn can affect the value of the gun.

After the serial number, we typically look for the proof house mark that indicates where the gun was proofed, and its country of origin. The gun in question possessed a LEG proof mark referring to the Liege Proof House in Belgium. Since there was no makers name on the gun, we were left to assume it was a ‘guild gun’. That is to say that it was a gun made by a variety of outworkers- the stock may have been made by one individual, checkered by another. The metal work done by yet another craftsman, and then the parts assembled. Guilds were frequently found in Belgium and Germany, though the idea of outworkers performing various tasks and sending parts back to the primary maker is commonplace in the gun trade.

The next significant mark found was a lion over a “PV” indicating a nitro proof. This is where the proof house markings come in- this nitro proof gives us a good reason to believe the gun will be safe to shoot with smokeless powder. It is not uncommon to see multiple proof house marks, and this is where a knowledge (or good book) can help. Marks changed over time, and occasionally you will see a gun that was originally proofed for black powder, that carries a second set of marks indicating that it was re-proofed for nitro powder. 

It is a requirement that guns be reproffed in Europe depending on what work is done to them. If a gun was orignally a 2.5” chamber, which is lengthened to 2 ¾”, the gun must be reproofed. The same goes for if a gun is sleeved- new barrels put on an old action. Flats on guns like this can seem a jumble of marks but they all tell part of the guns story.

Our gun was also marked with a 12 and a 70 in a circle indicating its 12ga, 2 ¾” chambers. Thinking in metric terms, 65 or 65mm would indicate 2 ½” chambers, with 70 or 70mm being the elongated 2 ¾”. Though those may be what some consider the important marks, there can be many more marks in these areas worth checking out. On the barrel, you will often find the choke designations - this gun had them as numbers- 18.3 and 18.4- metric bore measurements.

There are other marks like a star over a U, a script 3, double stamped numbers and more- these can be preliminary proof marks, final proof marks, controller marks, personal makers marks, or the individual at the proof house that tested the gun. There can also be a number in Kg or kilograms that indicates the weight of the barrels at the time of proofing.

 

Proof marks can be our best link to a guns history, much like a passport that helps reveal a bit about the gun and its past. They can tell where the gun came from, where it travelled in its lifetime, and so much more. They are certainly one of my favorite aspects of old shotguns and rifles. All in all the Belgian guild gun was well worth the $ paid and it is now living happily amongst the other guns on my rest farm for old shotguns. The lesson: a base knowledge of proof marks is a handy thing when assessing used guns and certainly helped solidify my decision to buy, rather than pass, this particular double.