Navigating the Age of Chaos Part 1 with Jamais Cascio And Bob Johansen
Release Date: 11/20/2025
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Mastering Chaos: Navigating the BANI Future with Bob Johansen & Jamais Cascio 🎙️ Episode Title: Mastering Chaos: Navigating the BANI Future 👥 Guests: Bob Johansen & Jamais Cascio 💡 Sponsored by: Kyndryl | Reimagining the tech systems powering global enterprise innovation. In this episode, Bob Johansen and Jamais Cascio return to explore their book Navigating the Age of Chaos: A Sensemaking Guide to a BANI World. They dive into the evolution from VUCA (Volatile, Uncertain, Complex, Ambiguous) to BANI (Brittle, Anxious, Nonlinear, Incomprehensible) and its...
info_outlineEpisode Summary:
In Part 1 of this two-episode series, Aidan McCullen is joined by futurists Bob Johansen and Jamais Cascio, co-authors of Navigating the Age of Chaos: A Sensemaking Guide to a BANI World That Doesn’t Make Sense. The trio unpacks the BANI Framework — Brittle, Anxious, Nonlinear, Incomprehensible — and explores how it helps us make sense of a world where traditional models like VUCA no longer apply.
Discover how anxiety, complexity, systemic fragility, and incomprehensible change are reshaping our lives and futures — and what we can do to adapt and thrive in the face of it all.
Key Discussion Points:
From VUCA to BANI: Why old models fail
System fragility and the myth of stability
Psychological burnout in the age of anxiety
Non-linear risk and delayed cause-effect dynamics
Incomprehensibility and the collapse of trust in truth
Links & Resources:
🌐 Book: Navigating the Age of Chaos – https://ageofbani.com
📘 Bob Johansen – https://www.iftf.org
🧠 Jamais Cascio – https://www.openthefuture.com
🎙️ Sponsored by Kyndryl – https://kyndryl.com
🎓 Host and Irish Keynote Speaker Aidan McCullen and The Innovation Show is the first podcast to be recognised by Thinkers50, the global ranking body for management thinkers.
For those wondering what the anime mentioned by Jamais is: One Piece, in particular the group in the series called the “Straw Hat Pirates."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Piece_(1999_TV_series)
https://www.npr.org/2025/10/05/nx-s1-5560980/gen-z-protesters-one-piece-pirate-flag
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message
00:21 Reflecting on the Decade: 2015-2025
01:41 Introducing the B.A.N.I. Framework
02:24 Meet the Authors: Bob Johansen and Jamais Cascio
04:29 The Evolution from VUCA to BANI
16:18 Understanding Brittle in BANI
30:14 Exploring Anxious in BANI
37:03 Alan Watts and the Timeless Nature of Anxiety
38:18 Resilience in the Face of Extinction
39:30 The Persistent Relevance of VUCA
39:52 The Unique Challenges of BANI
41:13 Interconnected Crises and Their Compounding Effects
44:30 The Participatory Panopticon and Surveillance
49:28 Non-Linearity and Climate Hysteresis
01:00:23 Stochastic Terrorism and Its Implications
01:02:44 Incomprehensibility in a BANI World
01:10:37 Conclusion and Further Resources
Coming Soon:
👉 Part 2: BANI Plus – Flipping the Framework Positive