The Innovation Show
A Global weekly show interviewing authors to inspire, educate and inform the business world and the curious. Presented by the author of "Undisruptable", this Global show speaks of something greater beyond innovation, disruption and technology. It speaks to the human need to learn: how to adapt to and love a changing world. It embraces the spirit of constant change, of staying receptive, of always learning.
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Ep 666: Shuo Chen — Fractional Founders, Frontier Firms and Why Enterprise Data Is AI's Gold
09/17/2026
Ep 666: Shuo Chen — Fractional Founders, Frontier Firms and Why Enterprise Data Is AI's Gold
"They don't quit their job cold turkey. That's not what I've observed firsthand." Only twelve companies have ever been worth more than a trillion dollars. Ten of them are American. Eight of those ten were started fractionally, by people who were still in a job or still in school when they built the first version. Shuo Chen is a General Partner at IOVC in the Bay Area, where she has made over 150 early-stage investments across a decade, with around a dozen exits through IPO and acquisition by Fortune 50 companies. She was one of the earliest investors in Instacart and has sold companies to Goldman Sachs, Ford and Caterpillar. She also teaches entrepreneurship at Stanford and UC Berkeley, and writes the Monthly Note. She joins Aidan McCullen to explain fractional founders, the people who de-risk an idea before they ever hand in their notice. In this conversation, Shuo reveals: - Why 8 of the 10 American trillion-dollar companies were built fractionally, and 1 in 4 of the Fortune 500 too - The Salesforce story most people get wrong: Larry Ellison wrote Marc Benioff a cheque to go and compete - How Jensen Huang and his co-founders designed NVIDIA after work, while still employed in semiconductors - Why "the organism rejects the organ" explains almost every intrapreneur who ends up leaving - What frontier firms actually are, and why giving staff access to AI tools now counts for nothing - Why revenue per employee has become the number startups check before every single hire - The human-to-agent leverage ratio, and why this is the last generation of leaders who manage only people - How Spirit Airlines' bankruptcy revealed that decades of internal data was its most valuable asset - Why 95% of the world's data sits inside private enterprise databases, and why that is gold to AI labs Chapters: 00:00 Fractional Founder Myth 03:04 Meet Shuo Chen 05:12 Why Founders Side Hustle 08:28 Proof From Trillion Firms 10:15 Keeping Intrapreneurs Close 13:15 Frontier Firms Defined 15:53 Revenue Per Employee Era 22:22 Advice For Students 28:58 AI Writing And Learning 34:58 Spirit Airlines Data Gold 41:20 Tool Spotlight Woolf 47:12 Wrap Up And Links About Shuo Chen: Shuo Chen is a General Partner at IOVC, an early-stage venture firm investing in the future of work, and teaches entrepreneurship at Stanford and UC Berkeley. Read her Monthly Note at https://shuo.iovc.io and connect on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/shuo-c About the Host: Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more at https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for the weekly essay behind the show: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
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EP 665 Paul Nunes — Motorola, Combinatorial Innovation and the Treasure in the Trash
09/11/2026
EP 665 Paul Nunes — Motorola, Combinatorial Innovation and the Treasure in the Trash
"When's the last time you thought about your suppliers as your partner in innovation?" Paul Nunes, co-author of Jumping the S-Curve, Big Bang Disruption and Pivot to the Future, returns to talk to Aidan McCullen about the companies that come back from the dead. Motorola is the case study, combinatorial innovation is the engine, and the uncomfortable question underneath it all is what your company would actually be worth in pieces. In this conversation, Paul reveals: → What a Lazarus taxon is, and why a handful of companies reappear decades after everyone wrote them off → How Motorola collapsed, sold to Google largely for its patents, and found a second life under Lenovo → Why a drone is really a phone camera, a gyroscope and some software, and what that means for your R&D budget → The $180 to $200 phone strategy that won the markets Apple and Samsung were not designing for → Why Kodak kept making billions long after everyone declared it dead → The million-dollar Porsche nobody could restore, and why somebody bought it anyway → Why Shockley Semiconductor should be a household name, and what the Traitorous Eight really cost it → Why putting your name on a stadium or a football shirt may be the first signal of decline → The line every chief strategy officer eventually says: it wasn't that we didn't know what to do, we no longer had the people to do it → Why the man who built the Learjet also built the car radio that became Motorola → Why price deflation, not competition, may be the fundamental strategy problem of the next decade 00:00 Innovation And Downfall 01:13 Sponsor And Guest Intro 02:18 Lazarus Companies Explained 05:54 Motorola Rebirth Story 07:30 Combinatorial Innovation Basics 14:41 Modularity And Supplier Innovation 19:18 Partners Turn Competitors 24:33 Motorola And Nonconsumers 27:56 IP And Hidden Value 34:57 Vanity Marketing Signals 39:32 Talent Curves And Seed Corn 44:44 Deflation And Strategy Pressure 48:01 Closing Thoughts And Wrap About Paul Nunes Paul F. Nunes is co-author of Jumping the S-Curve, Big Bang Disruption, Pivot to the Future and Mass Affluence, and spent years as Global Managing Director of Research at the Accenture Institute for High Performance. His research on growth, disruption and reinvention has been covered by the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and Forbes. Find Paul Nunes on LinkedIn: About the Host Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more about Aidan at https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of one of Paul's books, with thanks to Kyndryl. About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Connect: 🌐 https://theinnovationshow.io 📨 Substack (Thursday Thought): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com 🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 ▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen #Innovation #PaulNunes #CombinatorialInnovation #JumpingTheSCurve #Motorola #Disruption #Leadership #Strategy #Modularity #Podcast #AidanMcCullen #TheInnovationShow #Thinkers50 #Reinvention
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Dov Baron — The Art of Belonging and Identity Addiction
09/07/2026
Dov Baron — The Art of Belonging and Identity Addiction
"You don't want innovation. What you want is a tweak that won't be too uncomfortable." Dov Baron, five-time Top 30 Global Leadership Guru and author of The Art of Belonging, sits down with Aidan McCullen in Vancouver to explain why identity addiction is the hidden reason behavioural change fails — in athletes, in leaders and in entire organisations. From a childhood of poverty in Salford to a 1990 free-climbing fall near Whistler in which he died five times, Dov traces how identity forms, why we get neurochemically hooked on it, and what it takes to build a culture where people belong rather than fit in. In this conversation, Dov reveals: The five levels of the emotional source code — and why most behavioural change fails at the identity level What identity addiction is, and why a retired Olympian, a triple-bypass survivor and a burnt-out CEO all suffer from the same thing How a 120-foot fall, ten reconstructive surgeries and a dead cat on the couch forced Dov to choose between three lives Why "success creates atrophy" and real innovation only happens when things are hard The one-day-a-month experiment that gets people wanting to come back to the office Why the Great Resignation and COVID's "great pause" were a crisis of meaning, not pay Why a boss's sideways look is enough to kill an idea — and what psychological safety really means Why the superstar responsible for 40% of your sales may be costing you money The "when you did X, I felt Y" exercise that turns conflict into connection 00:00 Belonging Over Fitting In 02:03 Meet Dov Baron 02:28 Early Life And Spiritual Roots 04:50 From Therapy To Source Code 08:46 Identity Addiction Explained 12:37 Near Death Wake Up Call 17:17 Cat Moment And Purpose 23:19 Parallel Dave And Choices 26:03 Pain Drives Change 35:50 Innovation Needs Discomfort 37:51 Building Workplace Community 39:21 Great Resignation Meaning Crisis 41:25 Meaning Over Metrics 42:41 AI And Human Work 44:59 Practice Not Luck 49:33 Psychological Safety 55:10 Lenses And Belonging 01:00:01 Leaders In Transition 01:01:09 Toxic Stars And Meaning 01:09:31 Conflict As Connection 01:18:23 Closing And Sponsor About Dov Baron: keynote speaker, five-time Top 30 Global Leadership Guru, twice named to Inc. Magazine's Top 100 Leadership Speakers, creator of the Emotional Source Code framework and author of The Art of Belonging: How Conformity Silences Genius and How to Unleash It. Find the book and the Cultures of Belonging course at About the host: Aidan McCullen is a 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more at https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com and https://www.kyndryl.com/institute Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of The Art of Belonging, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
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Ep 663: Alex Osterwalder — Why the Core Business Kills Innovation (Explore vs Exploit, Part 3)
08/25/2026
Ep 663: Alex Osterwalder — Why the Core Business Kills Innovation (Explore vs Exploit, Part 3)
"Exploitation pays your salary. Exploration pays your pension." — Steve Blank In Part 3 of The Innovation Show's Strategyzer series, Alex Osterwalder returns to tackle the problem every leadership team quietly struggles with: the core business kills everything that looks different. Building on James March's exploration vs exploitation, Tushman and O'Reilly's Lead and Disrupt, and Clay Christensen's Innovator's Dilemma, Alex explains why good people with no ill intent still strangle new products, new channels and new business models — and what leaders must do about it. In this conversation, Alex reveals: → Why the core business kills everything that looks different — and why nobody involved is acting in bad faith → The SonoSite story: why a CEO sat in a sales meeting and watched his top salesperson never take out the product customers were asking for → Why exploration is a top-down challenge — and why bottom-up passion isn't enough without the right governance → How Logitech's Bracken Darrell used "trees, plants and seeds" to proactively shift 70% of resources out of the core → Why Jeff Bezos was obsessed with Amazon dying while it was at the very top — and what Day One culture really protects → The "Rita McGrath test": what a CEO's agenda reveals about what a company actually values → What Alex told a bank CEO about exploration: "I don't even care what you do, as long as people think you're working on it" → Inside the workshop Alex is designing for a luxury hotel chain — mapping city hotels, beach resorts, island retreats, yachts and private jets on a business model portfolio → Why luxury hospitality's shift from lodging to experiences is an exploration problem, not an operations problem → Hubert Joly on Best Buy: when a turnaround must come before exploration — and why everyone else should start exploring today 00:00 Why Innovation Stalls 00:47 Sponsor Message 01:19 Explore Versus Exploit 02:46 Osterwalder Law Returns 05:52 Sales Incentives Trap 09:15 Seeds Plants Trees 12:23 Governance In Practice 15:29 Luxury Hotel Workshop 18:29 Portfolio Map Exercise 24:46 Tools And Playbooks 26:11 Wrap Up And Sponsor Find the business model portfolio map and many more free tools at — Innovation Show listeners get 20% off the paid playbook library with code INNOVATIONSHOW20. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win one of Alex Osterwalder's books, with thanks to Kyndryl: About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Alex Osterwalder — Value Proposition Design in the Age of AI (Part 2)
08/19/2026
Alex Osterwalder — Value Proposition Design in the Age of AI (Part 2)
"You're gonna run up a hundred wrong hills, and you're still not gonna get a good understanding of the map." Alexander Osterwalder, co-author of Value Proposition Design and founder of Strategyzer, returns for Part 2 of our series. Last week: which projects to retire. This week: value proposition design in the age of AI — why generative AI can formulate a brilliant value proposition, but only if you've done the homework it cannot do for you. In this conversation, Alex reveals: Why building fast with AI without validated customer jobs, pains and gains is "running up a hundred wrong hills" The four foundations of an irresistible value proposition — and why even world-class brands can't show quantitative evidence for the first one Why teams differentiate against competitors instead of through the customer's eyes The Value Stack, Strategyzer's new tool for prioritising the benefits customers actually care about Should you feed your secret formula into enterprise AI? Alex's two answers to the data-privacy dilemma Why the fear of AI handing your value proposition to competitors is — for now — irrational Why marketing teams "shouldn't be writing a word" — and how to turn Gen AI into rocket fuel instead of a shortcut The B2B trap: designing for users when decision-makers sign the cheque How a solo inventor should ABC-test differentiators and pricing with three landing pages The Roger Federer analogy: why e-learning alone will never make you world-class Why growth is a profession you learn, not a creative gift 00:00 Building Fast Up the Wrong Hill 00:25 Validate Customers with Evidence 01:07 A Word from Our Sponsor, Kyndryl 01:45 How Teams Misuse AI in Value Proposition Design 02:59 Why a Value Proposition Is Not a Writing Exercise 03:55 The Four Ingredients of an Irresistible Value Proposition 05:59 Benefits Backed by Proof 06:50 Differentiate Through the Customer's Eyes 07:58 The Process and the Playbook 10:06 AI Only Works After the Homework 11:55 The Data Privacy Dilemma 13:04 Safe Models and Why Your Value Proposition Is Unique 16:41 Stop Wordsmithing, Start Iterating 17:05 The Gen AI Playbook, Step by Step 18:58 Inside the Playbook Library 19:52 B2B: Users vs Decision-Makers 22:05 Listener Discount and Webinar Details 23:07 Advice for Builders and Entrepreneurs 26:11 Discipline Beats Creativity 27:02 The Roger Federer Coach Analogy 30:07 The Party Trick: Evaluating Business Ideas 31:51 Wrap Up and Thanks to Kyndryl Explore the Strategyzer playbook library at — Innovation Show listeners get 20% off with the code INNOVATIONSHOW20. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Sign up for the Kyndryl Institute at and send us a screenshot for a chance to win a copy of Value Proposition Design, with thanks to Kyndryl. About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: Substack (Thursday Thought): Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Alex Osterwalder — Which Projects to Fund and Which to Kill
08/13/2026
Alex Osterwalder — Which Projects to Fund and Which to Kill
"Spreadsheets are a fantasy made explicit. They're not a metric. What you can measure is the evidence that the business case could work." Alexander Osterwalder, creator of the Business Model Canvas, CEO of Strategyzer and author of The Invincible Company, Testing Business Ideas and Value Proposition Design, returns to The Innovation Show. He walks Aidan McCullen through the evidence-based innovation playbook he uses with companies like Honeywell to decide which growth projects to fund, which to change, and which to retire — so you get a real funnel, not a tunnel. In this conversation, Alex reveals: • Why every upfront business case is "pure fantasy" — and what to measure instead • The five levels of evidence, from what customers say to what they actually do • How Honeywell's Growth Symposiums fund projects on scorecards of evidence, not opinions • Why LEGO Movies started at zero on every score while LEGO Friends started at level-five feasibility • The explore vs exploit trap: why 90% of companies judge new ideas with "exploit glasses" on • Amazon's scale from new warehouses to Kindle to AWS — and why AWS was never a business case • Why engineers build too fast in the age of AI, and why needs and willingness to pay come first • The "Mark said we know" technique that makes faith-based investing explicit • What makes an entrepreneurial leader, from Jeff Bezos to Logitech's Bracken Darrell • The move from books to playbooks: the say-do cycle and the market-readiness assessment, demonstrated live Chapters: 00:00 Scorecard Of Evidence 02:00 Oscar The Cat 03:00 Welcoming Alex Osterwalder 04:00 From Books To Playbooks 06:00 Honeywell Growth Symposiums 08:00 Business Cases Are Fantasy 10:00 Test Needs And Willingness To Pay 13:00 Five Levels Of Evidence 16:00 Evidence Scorecards Per Idea 17:00 LEGO Movies Versus LEGO Friends 20:00 Explore Versus Exploit Mindset 24:00 The Dual Mindset Leader 27:00 Innovation Theatre Confession 30:00 Playbook Demo Market Readiness 32:38 Scoring Customer Evidence 34:09 Leader Evidence Conversations 36:19 Practical Wrap Up 39:00 Where To Find Alex Find Alex and the Strategyzer playbook library at https://www.strategyzer.com This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com. Win a copy of one of Alex Osterwalder's books: sign up for the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com/institute and send us a screenshot to be in with a chance, with thanks to Kyndryl. About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Substack (Thursday Thought): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
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Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez — Powered by Projects and the Project-Driven Organization
08/07/2026
Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez — Powered by Projects and the Project-Driven Organization
"If you launch more projects than you finish, you're a bad leader. Your role is not about launching projects — it's about finishing them." Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez, creator of the project economy concept and author of Powered by Projects, joins Aidan McCullen to explain why agile — a 20-year-old idea — is no longer enough, and why the next evolution is the project-driven organization (PDO): a company rearchitected around dynamic, empowered, cross-functional project teams. In this conversation, Antonio reveals: Why EY's Project Everest collapsed despite a perfect plan — and what it says about ego at the top The structural blind spot that undermined Nike's digital transformation The robot hairdresser that shocked a luxury company's C-suite — and why "safe" jobs aren't Why COVID briefly turned every surviving company into a project-driven organization How Bill Anderson is dismantling hierarchy and approval steps at Bayer The insurance company that ring-fenced €50 million for crazy ideas — and why employees only asked for €2 million The bank that had Revolut's idea first, then killed it in the budgeting cycle Why "are you crazy?" is the best compliment an idea can receive The Toyota-style kill switch every transformation needs — and why 90% done is done How Alan Mulally's all-green KPIs at Ford exposed a culture that couldn't ask for help Chapters: 00:00 Lead Through Transformation 01:13 Sponsor Message Kyndryl 01:40 Why Projects Really Fail 02:03 Meet Antonio And Project Economy 07:04 Projects As Your Future 08:33 Case Study EY Project Everest 10:29 Case Study Nike Structure Fails 13:09 Rethinking Org Structure For AI 15:02 AI And Robots Disrupt Work 17:29 From Agile To Project Driven 21:57 Change Fatigue Too Many Projects 26:02 Co Creation And Leadership Focus 27:37 Great Resignation And PDO Shift 29:09 Burnout After Covid 30:12 Bayer And Haier Blueprint 34:09 Empower Teams To Stop 36:09 From Projects To PDO 39:19 Finish Early Kill Fast 42:42 Exponential Crazy Bets 50:40 Transparency And Town Halls 56:09 Final Advice And Wrap Find Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez at and on LinkedIn. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Powered by Projects, with thanks to Kyndryl: About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Rita McGrath & Sangeet Paul Choudary — Rule Makers, Rule Takers and Structural Uncertainty
07/29/2026
Rita McGrath & Sangeet Paul Choudary — Rule Makers, Rule Takers and Structural Uncertainty
"Structural uncertainty is simple. The game itself is in question. The playing field is in question. You're no longer playing with uncertainty inside the rules — the rules are the thing that's moving." Rita McGrath wrote The End of Competitive Advantage and gave us transient advantage. Sangeet Paul Choudary wrote Reshuffle and won the 2025 Thinkers50 Strategy Award. Aidan McCullen puts them in the same room to ask a question neither can answer alone: in an age of AI, is advantage getting shorter, or are a small number of firms locking in something far more durable by making the rules everyone else has to play by? In this conversation, Rita and Sangeet reveal: Why the two founding assumptions of strategy — that industries have boundaries, and that equilibrium is normal — are now absurd What Carlota Perez's turning point framework says about where we are, and why data and intelligence are the new oil The investor who always bet against Netflix, and the one thing he never believed the film studios would be stupid enough to do How Netflix beat Blockbuster before streaming existed, by serving local demand with national supply Why Tesla went vertically integrated in the decade everyone else preached openness How Reliance Jio commoditised its own cash cow, took 400 million users, and collapsed an industry from 17 players to three The difference between a rule maker and a rule taker, and why rule takers are condemned to run from one transient advantage to the next Why roughly 93% of corporate assets were tangible in 1975 and almost exactly the reverse is true today How Binah.ai deleted the blood draw, the lab, the chemicals and the actuary from life insurance pricing Sangeet's test for anyone using AI at work: are you working for the model, or is the model working for you? Why translators are now paid half as much to do the harder half of the job Rita's SDSS times two: stop doing stupid stuff, then start doing smart stuff 00:00 Sponsor Message 00:25 Strategy Rules Rewritten 01:26 Meet Rita and Sangeet 03:22 Strategy Origins and Transience 05:25 Turning Point in Capitalism 07:25 Capabilities and Competitive Insulation 10:38 Platforms and Network Effects 16:09 Seeing Hidden Advantages 21:14 No Silver Bullets in Strategy 27:38 Policy and Regulation in Transition 32:33 Social Unrest Warning Signs 34:35 Outsourcing Strategic Lens 36:40 Structural Uncertainty Era 38:41 Reliance Jio Rulemaking 42:17 Challenging Strategy Frameworks 44:04 Beyond Five Forces Today 48:26 First Principles Over Models 54:07 Learning Discipline In AI 58:15 Make AI Work For You 01:03:16 Wrap Up And Resources About Rita McGrath Rita McGrath is a longtime professor at Columbia Business School, a Thinkers50 top-ten management thinker and winner of their number one award for strategy. She is the author of The End of Competitive Advantage, Seeing Around Corners, Discovery-Driven Growth, MarketBusters and The Entrepreneurial Mindset, and she hosts the Thought Sparks podcast. About Sangeet Paul Choudary Sangeet Paul Choudary is the founder of Platformation Labs and the author of Reshuffle: Who Wins When AI Restacks the Knowledge Economy, winner of the 2025 Thinkers50 Strategy Award. He co-authored Platform Revolution and wrote Platform Scale, and his work on platforms has been named by Harvard Business Review as one of the top ten ideas in strategy. and About the Host Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Reshuffle, with thanks to Kyndryl: About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Keith McCandless — The Surprising Power of Liberating Structures
07/24/2026
Keith McCandless — The Surprising Power of Liberating Structures
"You don't have to be a methodological genius. These are patterns — 43 simple patterns that anyone can use to include every voice in shaping what happens next." Keith McCandless, co-developer of Liberating Structures and co-author of The Surprising Power of Liberating Structures, joins Aidan McCullen to explain why most meetings are either over-controlled or under-controlled — and how simple shifts in everyday interaction can unleash a culture of innovation from the frontline to the C-suite. In this conversation, Keith reveals: Why the first field test of Liberating Structures happened in hospitals fighting superbugs — with fifteen languages spoken on a single unit The Big Five conventional structures (presentation, managed discussion, status report, brainstorm, open discussion) — and why every one of them quietly fails How one father went from a year of monosyllabic answers to an hour-long conversation with his teenage daughter using Creative Destruction Why 1-2-4-All fixed a two-year meeting nightmare for twenty project managers in Paris in half an hour Why repetition is a source of innovation — and how thinking alone first defeats anchoring bias The Ecocycle map a healthcare group crumpled, covered in Post-its, and reused every quarter for a year The VA hospital leader who declared mid-session, "All the decisions we just made are final" Why influencing culture beats changing culture — and what the adjacent possible has to do with it How Liberating Structures moved online with nothing more than a tech host and breakout rooms The lesson from Dee Hock, the chaordic organisation, and the war language that limits our world 00:00 Sponsor Message 00:27 Liberating Structures Intro 01:27 Messy Work Environments 02:21 Superbugs Field Test 03:35 What Are They 05:02 Complexity Lens 07:52 Influencing Culture 12:31 Adjacent Possible Innovation 14:18 Personal Life Applications 15:59 Creative Destruction TRIZ 19:28 Neurodiversity Inclusion 22:58 Big Five Meeting Traps 30:27 Microstructures Online 32:26 Online Facilitation Tips 36:50 1-2-4-All In Action 42:25 Eco Cycle Strategy Map 47:39 Liberating Leadership 52:45 Wrap Up And Resources 53:54 Sponsor Thanks Outro Find Keith McCandless at — the full repertoire, the app (with at least 33 structures on your phone), and the new Liberating Structures Fieldbook, co-authored with Nancy White. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack: About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. About the Host: Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Usman Sheikh — How AI Will Reshape Consulting: The End of the Pyramid
07/15/2026
Usman Sheikh — How AI Will Reshape Consulting: The End of the Pyramid
"AI doesn't have judgment in it — it produces judgment-shaped artifacts." Usman Sheikh, founder of High Output Ventures and author of the Framebreak newsletter, has spent years writing about how AI will reshape professional services — and the world has now caught up with the puck. In this conversation with Aidan McCullen, he explains why the consulting pyramid — the structure behind every major firm — is coming apart, and what replaces it. In this conversation, Usman reveals: Why firms became pyramids: leverage, margin, and a talent academy paid for by the client's billable hours How AI pulls all three apart at once What "judgment-shaped artifacts" are — and why AI is fundamentally different from offshoring and RPA "Fluent but substitutable": why leaning on an LLM turns your career into a slot machine The digital twin trap — why a frozen snapshot of a senior partner decays fast The Concentrix vs Sierra story: AI voice agents in regulated industries growing from $100M to $200M in revenue in four months The "AI discount": why KPMG asked its own auditor for a price cut — and how the surplus drains to clients and platforms Why Palantir and Microsoft are suddenly preaching sovereignty over your data and models The intelligence core: the feedback loop that turns pyramids into rings How firms build tomorrow's bench — simulators, shadowing, apprenticeships — and why partners near retirement have no incentive to bother Chapters: 00:00 Sponsor Message 00:31 Guest Introduction 03:10 Why Firms Became Pyramids 05:13 AI Breaks The Model 05:53 Digital Twins And Hiring 07:38 Training Juniors With AI 11:50 Fluent But Substitutable 15:19 Offshoring To AI Shift 20:18 Macro Jobs And Demand 23:14 Who Captures The Gains 28:04 Learning In The AI Era 34:33 Intelligence Core And Rings 40:49 AI Discount And Value Drain 45:21 Building The Future Bench 50:11 Wrap Up And Where To Find 51:16 Final Thanks And Outro About Usman Sheikh Usman Sheikh is the founder and managing director of High Output Ventures, a venture studio building and backing technology-augmented service firms, and the author of Framebreak, a weekly newsletter on strategy, consulting and the knowledge-work economy. Read his work at and connect on LinkedIn: About the Host Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, a keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more: This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack: About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Carla Johnson — RE:Think Innovation and the Wheel of Innovation
07/09/2026
Carla Johnson — RE:Think Innovation and the Wheel of Innovation
"Innovation isn't a gift. It's a simple, repeatable five-step process that anyone, at any level, can learn — with nothing more than a stack of Post-it notes." Carla Johnson, author of RE:Think Innovation, is on a mission to teach one million people to consistently come up with new, great and reliable ideas. In this anniversary-edition conversation, she takes Aidan McCullen through her updated Wheel of Innovation — observe, distill, relate, generate, pitch — and the cautionary tales that show why so many good ideas die in the boardroom. In this conversation, Carla reveals: Why a pet-flavoured water startup failed — and the warning signs it ignored The "CF-uh-O" who killed a Disney-inspired pitch, and what it teaches about how ideas are packaged What brand detachment disorder is — and why "that would never work here" is your most expensive excuse How Big Ass Fans transplanted the customer experience of Zingerman's Deli into an industrial fan company How the CDC's zombie apocalypse campaign got 60,000 hits in an hour and put Dr. Ali Khan on stage at Comic-Con Why Great Ormond Street Hospital brought in Ferrari's Formula 1 pit crew to cut surgical handover errors How Tim Washer turned the Cisco ASR 9000 router launch into a Valentine's Day love story Why real creativity only starts after your first 200 ideas The "how might we" language shift that stops your brain killing ideas before they're born How to give feedback that builds perpetual innovators instead of silencing them Chapters: 00:00 Innovation Is A Process 00:49 Why RE Think Matters 02:10 Thirsty Pet Cautionary Tale 05:01 Defining Innovation Clearly 07:29 New Great Reliable Ideas 09:54 Perpetual Innovators Explained 11:03 Mentorina Pitch Gone Wrong 15:10 Brand Detachment Disorder 18:29 Complexity Bias In Innovation 22:07 Brand Transplant Big Ass Fans 25:38 Constraints And If Onlys 28:23 CDC Zombie Preparedness Win 33:18 Wheel Of Innovation Update 33:53 Constraints Spark Creativity 34:27 Cisco Router Love Story 39:32 Observation Drives Innovation 45:01 Distill Dots Into Patterns 48:05 Relate Ideas To Brand 53:00 Generate 200 Ideas 55:50 Pitch The Idea Journey 59:32 Feedback That Builds 01:04:19 Where To Find Carla Find Carla Johnson at — take the innovation archetype assessment and sign up for her fortnightly newsletter. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership. Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Carliss Baldwin & Kim Clark — Design Rules: How IBM Created Ecosystems (and Competitors)
07/03/2026
Carliss Baldwin & Kim Clark — Design Rules: How IBM Created Ecosystems (and Competitors)
"The act of modularizing your product is the very act of inviting your future competitors into existence." Carliss Baldwin and Kim Clark, authors of the landmark Design Rules: The Power of Modularity, join Aidan McCullen for an Innovation Show exclusive. Their book is the Rosetta Stone of platform strategy — the mechanic underneath the Innovator's Dilemma — and it has never been more relevant than in this age of AI. In this conversation, Carliss and Kim reveal: Why the power of modularity underpins Moore's Law — and everything digital around us How IBM engineers, locked in a Connecticut motel before Christmas, invented the first conscious modular platform strategy How the System/360 turned IBM from a competitor into "the environment" Why the engineers who walked out of IBM's San Jose plant spawned the entire disk-drive industry How IBM owned 30% of Intel and contracted Microsoft — yet failed to own the only two sources of profit in the PC ecosystem Why "the game is never incontestably won" Why Sears couldn't become Walmart, and Walmart couldn't become Amazon The Chevy Vega that shook itself apart on the test track — and the cost of losing tacit knowledge Why AI agents are forcing companies to map their workflows for the first time How Haier replaced twelve layers of management with 4,000 entrepreneurial teams Why leadership is the operating system of the organisation 00:00 Why This Book Matters 00:33 Modularity For Founders Investors 01:39 Meet The Authors 02:25 What Are Design Rules 03:43 Design Rules Everywhere 06:50 Digital Tech Meets Software 10:52 IBM System 360 Breakthrough 14:22 Artifacts And Interfaces 20:55 Ecosystem Value Migration 26:10 Capturing Value In Platforms 30:23 AI And Measuring Modularity 34:08 Architectural Change And Retail 37:37 Why Incumbents Survive Or Die 43:28 Modularity Creates Options 44:48 Incumbents Miss Nuances 47:09 AI Needs Workflow Maps 52:18 Tacit Knowledge Lost 54:13 Small Car Hood Failures 59:00 Why Ideas Bomb 01:01:28 History Constrains Firms 01:05:52 Modular Organisations Rise 01:08:58 Haier Team Ecosystems 01:17:41 Leadership As Operating System 01:21:55 Spandrels And Tech Reality 01:27:53 Closing Reflections About the Guests Carliss Y. Baldwin is the William L. White Professor of Business Administration, Emerita, at Harvard Business School and author of Design Rules, Volume 2: How Technology Shapes Organizations (MIT Press). Kim B. Clark is a former Dean of Harvard Business School, NAC Distinguished Professor of Management at BYU Marriott School of Business, co-author of Leading Through, and co-founder of the Leading Through Institute. Together they wrote Design Rules, Volume 1: The Power of Modularity (MIT Press). Design Rules, Volume 2: Leading Through Institute: About the Host Aidan McCullen is a 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). More at About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack: Connect:
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Jennifer Chatman — Transformational Leader or Narcissist?
06/24/2026
Jennifer Chatman — Transformational Leader or Narcissist?
"Narcissists do draw people in. They start with really appealing visions — and then the wheels come off." About 2% of people are narcissists. Among CEOs, it's roughly 16%. Jennifer Chatman — Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and one of the world's leading scholars of organisational culture — joins Aidan McCullen to explain why narcissistic leadership is so often mistaken for visionary leadership, and how to tell the two apart before one wrecks your company. Drawing on her widely cited article with Stanford's Charles O'Reilly, "Transformational Leader or Narcissist?", and her new book Making Organizational Culture Great, Jennifer separates the grandiose vision we admire from the exploitation that comes attached to it. This episode follows directly on from the two-part Geoffrey Cain series on Steve Jobs in exile — because Jobs is one of the case studies. In this conversation, Jennifer reveals: Why a narcissistic CEO's pay quietly pulls away from their team's over time — and what that gap really measures The single interview question that exposes a narcissist: "Who did you bring along with you?" Why Steve Jobs ended his career with 13 senior leaders who'd stayed 13 years — and what that says about him How "grandiose vision" and "narcissism" overlap on a Venn diagram — and where they split The "dark triad" that turns confidence into damage: narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism Why narcissistic CEOs file far more lawsuits — yet win no more of them The counter-intuitive team move: group your narcissists together Why narcissism's damage to a culture is "sticky" — it lingers long after the leader leaves How to shield yourself when you can't leave — and when to look for the exit Why chaos and uncertainty are a narcissist's favourite weather Chapters 00:00 Cold open: how narcissist CEOs pull away from their teams 02:00 Welcome Jennifer Chatman, and the Steve Jobs connection 04:00 Kalanick, Holmes, Trump: the quotes that give a narcissist away 05:00 Why 16% of CEOs are narcissists — and how they draw you in 07:00 The delayed damage: pay, credit, and the dark triad 16:00 The one question that exposes a narcissist 19:00 Risk, lawsuits, and the denial of failure 24:00 Ethics, collaboration, and the sticky cost to culture 27:00 How to protect yourself, and Making Organizational Culture Great (Timestamps follow the transcript markers — shift after the final edit.) About the Host Aidan McCullen, 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI/disruption/innovation/change, host of The Innovation Show, author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Links: About the Guest Jennifer A. Chatman is the Bank of America Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and a leading scholar of organisational culture and narcissistic leadership. She co-created the Organizational Culture Profile and co-hosts the podcast The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer. With Stanford's Charles O'Reilly she wrote the widely cited article "Transformational Leader or Narcissist? How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create and Destroy Organizations and Institutions," and with Glenn Carroll she is the author of Making Organizational Culture Great: Moving Beyond Popular Beliefs (Columbia Business School Publishing, 2026). Link: About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Making Organizational Culture Great, with thanks to Kyndryl: Connect: Website: Substack (Thursday Thought): Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile, Part 2: NeXT's Failures, Pixar's Lifeline and the Road Back to Apple
06/15/2026
Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile, Part 2: NeXT's Failures, Pixar's Lifeline and the Road Back to Apple
Steve Jobs sold barely 100 computers a month at NeXT — and told his team they'd sell 100,000. This is the decade everyone skips. Author Geoffrey Cain joins Aidan McCullen for part two on Steve Jobs in Exile, the story of the wilderness years between Jobs' 1985 ousting from Apple and his return. Cain reframes the NeXT era not as a triumphant hero's journey but as a cascade of failure, ego and self-sabotage that quietly forged the leader Jobs became. In this conversation, Geoffrey reveals: Why the "reality distortion field" stopped working the moment the $6,500 NeXTcube shipped How Jobs sabotaged an IBM deal that could have made NeXTSTEP, not Windows, the world's operating system The airport moment he abandoned his own salesman in front of 800 IBM engineers Why he killed Ross Perot's pipeline to the CIA, NSA and Pentagon with five words: "I don't like the feds" How a Daffy Duck demo blew up a Disney deal worth thousands of computers Why Tim Berners-Lee built the entire World Wide Web on a single NeXTcube in 1990 How the creators of Doom were turned away because Jobs "didn't like games" The advisor's warning Jobs ignored for a decade: "your assets have feet" Why putting on a grey suit to sell enterprise software was the moment he finally grew up The random mid-level phone call — not Jobs' idea — that put him back on the road to Apple Chapters: 00:00 Think beyond use cases 00:38 Sponsor message 01:03 Part two begins 01:54 NeXT revenge era 03:48 Reality distorts back 04:56 Cube launch hype 05:59 Sales reality check 06:48 Founder market lesson 08:04 The hero–shithead rollercoaster 12:09 Carrot and stick leadership 13:25 Assets have feet 14:57 Co-founders depart 17:50 Buggy cube problems 18:53 Writing the donut hole 19:57 Canon investment drama 21:33 IBM deal sabotage 25:40 Ross Perot fallout 28:13 No feds market 28:48 Disney deal blow-up 31:03 NeXT powers the web 32:32 Doom and missed gaming 33:28 Lesson for AI builders 35:32 Motorola dumps NeXT 38:40 Rock bottom pivot 40:07 Enterprise sales Jobs 43:34 WebObjects breakthrough 48:06 Pixar vindication 51:05 Phone call to Apple 54:47 Wrap up and sponsor About Geoffrey Cain: Geoffrey Cain is an author and investigative journalist. His book Steve Jobs in Exile chronicles the NeXT and Pixar years, and he also wrote Samsung Rising. Website: Substack (The Burner Files): X: About The Innovation Show: The Innovation Show is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for extra content and webinars. Connect: Website: Substack: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn: About the Author Geoffrey Cain is an author and investigative journalist, and the author of Steve Jobs in Exile and Samsung Rising. https://geoffreycain.net — About the Host Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley).
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Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile: NeXT, Failure, Revenge and the Remaking of a Visionary
06/10/2026
Geoffrey Cain — Steve Jobs in Exile: NeXT, Failure, Revenge and the Remaking of a Visionary
Steve Jobs was nearly bankrupt — down to his last $150 million, burning $50 million a year, with every product failing and every investor gone. Award-winning journalist Geoffrey Cain, author of Steve Jobs in Exile: The Untold Story of NeXT and the Remaking of a Technology Visionary, joins Aidan McCullen to tell the story the official Jobs narrative leaves out: the dozen years between his firing from Apple in 1985 and his triumphant return. Drawing on unbroadcast NeXT footage, new interviews and internal documents, Cain reveals the failures, the revenge and the near-misses that forged the leader who saved Apple. In this conversation, Geoffrey reveals: Why Steve Jobs was three years from bankruptcy in the early 1990s The "low-level employees" lie that made Apple sue its own co-founder Why the lawsuit backfired and handed Jobs exactly what he wanted How a Bill Gates talk about CD-ROMs accidentally named NeXT Why revenge on John Sculley — not changing the world — drove the founding of NeXT The "hero–shithead rollercoaster" every NeXT executive insisted Cain had to understand The "deep shit list" Jobs ran the company on — and the mindset shift that replaced it How George Lucas's divorce handed Jobs Pixar at a fire-sale price Why Ross Perot bet $20 million on a company with no product "Steve on a Stick" — the celebrity sales act that kept NeXT alive Chapters: 00:00 Failures Before Fame 01:03 Sponsor Message 01:36 NeXT Years Overview 02:50 Meet Geoffrey Cain 06:46 Survivorship Bias Lens 08:59 Near Bankruptcy Stakes 11:50 Fired From Apple 1985 14:37 Summer In Exile 19:11 Rival Jean-Louis Gassée 22:22 Dan'l Lewin And Education 27:32 Revenge Fuels NeXT 30:52 Apple Sues Steve Jobs 34:37 Lawsuit Backfires 36:23 Naming NeXT 39:02 Betting Careers On Steve 42:08 Pixar Fire Sale Bet 45:28 Working With Steve 46:31 Hero Shithead Rollercoaster 49:11 NeXT Talent Hierarchy 53:14 Luxury Spending Spree 58:32 Ross Perot Big Check 01:02:04 Deep Shit List Management 01:08:28 Canon Optical Disk Gamble 01:13:38 Businessland Sales Fallout 01:17:22 Wrap Up And Sponsor Find Geoffrey Cain at , on X at @Geoffrey_Cain and on LinkedIn (GCain). This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Steve Jobs in Exile, with thanks to Kyndryl: About The Innovation Show: The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Aidan McCullen hosts world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. About the Host: Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more at Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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AI Is Rewiring Organizations — McGrath, Osterwalder, Amla & Sheikh
06/03/2026
AI Is Rewiring Organizations — McGrath, Osterwalder, Amla & Sheikh
One developer. Six months. An $80 million sale to Wix. That's not the future of work — it's already here. In this special panel from the Kyndryl Institute and The Innovation Show, host Aidan McCullen brings together four of the world's sharpest minds on strategy, innovation and disruption to explain why most leaders are using AI completely wrong — and what to do instead. Rita McGrath (Columbia, author of The Entrepreneurial Mindset and originator of "transient advantage"), Alexander Osterwalder (creator of the Business Model Canvas, CEO of Strategyzer), Ismail Amla (SVP at Kyndryl, author of From Incremental to Exponential) and Usman Sheikh (author of Frame Break, MD of High Output Ventures) map how work, value and power are being redrawn. In this conversation, the panel reveals: Why painting over a rusty gate explains how most companies are misusing AI How a single developer sold an $80 million company to Wix after six months of solo work What Jensen Huang does every Sunday night to stay connected to NVIDIA's front line Why Bayer put its whole workforce on 90-day cycles — and how it kills office politics The "verification bottleneck" that quietly cancels out every speed gain from AI Why one firm tracking staff AI logins for promotions missed the point entirely How the billable hour is dying — and what replaces it Why labour arbitrage flipped from advantage to liability in just twelve months What a Korean fintech founded by a dentist (Toss) teaches us about permissionless teams Where incumbents still hold a moat that AI-native startups can't touch Chapters: 00:00 AI Moment Opens 00:35 Meet The Panel 02:20 Rewiring Organisations 03:36 Rusty Gate Lesson 04:25 Entrepreneurial CEO Return 06:28 Permissionless Transition 08:39 One-Person Unicorns 10:13 Power Redefined 13:17 Verification Bottleneck 15:46 Agents In The Enterprise 20:22 Gaming AI Metrics 22:54 Death Of The Billable Hour 24:23 Electricity Era Analogy 26:18 Business Model Fundamentals 28:04 Rethinking Business Models 29:04 AI Native vs Legacy 29:49 Services Industry Upended 33:40 First Steps For Incumbents 37:51 Toss And Team Autonomy 41:17 Incentives And Accountability 45:42 Incumbent Data Moats 47:50 Elevator Pitches And Wrap-Up The panel: Rita McGrath — Alexander Osterwalder / Strategyzer — Ismail Amla, From Incremental to Exponential — Usman Sheikh, Frame Break — This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack : About The Innovation Show: The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Each week, Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners to explore disruption, innovation, change, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow. About the host: Aidan McCullen — 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Follow and subscribe: Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Eric Ries — How to Build an Incorruptible Organisation
05/27/2026
Eric Ries — How to Build an Incorruptible Organisation
What if the best practices taught in every business school are quietly destroying the organisations that follow them? Eric Ries — author of Incorruptible: Why Good Companies Go Bad and How Great Companies Stay Great and founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange — joins Aidan McCullen to expose the hidden forces that corrupt mission-driven organisations, and to reveal the structural defences that keep outliers like Costco immune. About Eric Ries Eric Ries is an entrepreneur and the bestselling author of The Lean Startup. His new book, Incorruptible, maps the structural forces that destroy company missions and lays out a blueprint for building organisations that resist them. He is also the founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange (LTSE). About Aidan McCullen Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50-recognised host, keynote speaker, author of Undisruptable, and former professional athlete. He is the founder and host of The Innovation Show — the podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. In this conversation, Eric reveals: Why mission drift and bureaucracy are really corruption — and why naming them that changes everything How financial gravity silently pulls every organisation toward value extraction unless actively resisted The professor story that launched the book — and the question that haunts every founder: is it even possible to build an incorruptible organisation? The LTSE ambush: how Eric's team chose potential bankruptcy over compromising their principles — and why that decision ultimately saved the company Why the founder hero story and the market story are the same story told backwards — and how that confusion destroys organisations from the inside The golden goose paradox: why Sol Price and Robert Owen kept losing control of the very organisations they built The Costco governance fortress — how Jim Sinegal created a structure that protects the fiduciary-to-the-customer ethos no matter how hard Wall Street pushes back 00:00 Sponsor Message 00:26 Naming Corruption 02:32 Why Best Practices Fail 05:08 Professor Story Wake Up Call 09:57 Financial Gravity And Strength 12:26 LTSE Ambush And Principles 19:14 Founder Hero Vs Market Story 23:56 Golden Goose And Case Studies 25:19 Sol Price And Robert Owen 30:46 Costco Governance Fortress 33:15 Wrap Up And Resources 34:26 Sponsor Outro Guest links: Book: More resources: Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Incorruptible, with thanks to Kyndryl: Subscribe and follow: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Bruce Vojak — Identifying, Developing and Managing Serial Innovators (Part 3 of 3)
05/20/2026
Bruce Vojak — Identifying, Developing and Managing Serial Innovators (Part 3 of 3)
"I don't like J work." That was Andy — a top serial innovator at SAIC — telling his manager Dennis what he needed to be protected from. J work, in Andy's field of computational electromagnetics, is the imaginary part of a number. To Andy, it meant the imaginary work: staff meetings, budget reviews, formal reporting. Dennis's job was to keep him in real work. Most managers do the opposite. In part three of our Serial Innovators series, Bruce Vojak closes the loop. After two episodes on who serial innovators are and how they navigate the politics, this one is about how organisations find them, develop them — and how managers can stop accidentally driving them out the door. Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms (with Ray Price and Abby Griffin), founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. In this conversation, Bruce reveals: • Why mechanistic, CV-screening HR processes — and now AI-powered hiring filters — systematically screen out your future innovators • The four engagement filters that actually identify a serial innovator: how they engage with problems, projects, business, and people • The five core traits — systems thinking, above-average (but not extreme) creativity, innate curiosity, deep-expertise intuition, and the intrinsic drive to make things better • Why π-shaped (pi-shaped) workers — broad across domains AND deep in multiple specialisms — beat T-shaped specialists • Why innovators spot innovators — and why your best HR move is letting your existing serial innovators sit in on hires • The career-phase development model: hard problems early, breadth via exposure, apprenticeship over mentorship, and burnout as a real risk if you don't choose your battles • Golden handcuffs — and the "fur-lined mousetrap" most serial innovators eventually walk into • The Dennis-and-Andy story at DEMACO/SAIC — and what Dennis did right that almost every other manager gets wrong • The pheasant hunting in Iowa metaphor — why over-managed budgets leave no nesting ground for the future of your business • The five things a manager has to do — air cover, patience, running interference, no bureaucratic J work, no daily progress reports • Why phase-gate control is the slow death of breakthrough innovation • Where Bruce respectfully diverges from Clay Christensen on whether innovation can survive inside the organisation — or has to be spun out • The incentive traps that quietly destroy serial innovators — and why "I'm doing what's best for the company and you're giving me crap for it" is the line every serial innovator says to themselves at least once Chapters: 00:00 Executive Innovator Balance 00:37 Sponsor Message 01:03 Serial Innovators Intro 01:08 HR Screening Problem 03:02 Four Engagement Filters 04:46 Engaging With Problems 05:28 Projects Tenacity 06:29 Business Mindset 07:16 People And Customers 08:33 Research Method War Room 10:46 Five Core Traits 12:12 Innovators Spot Innovators 14:05 Career Phases 0 To 10 17:06 Hard Problems Early 17:58 Apprenticeship Model 18:52 Burnout And Choosing Battles 22:33 Innovator Versus Inventor 24:24 Nurturing Through Exposure 27:05 Budget Barriers Story 29:59 AI Hiring And Hidden Signals 31:44 HR Triads And Policy Limits 33:04 Golden Handcuffs Risk 34:34 Managing For Impact Setup 35:52 Relational Management Style 37:41 Innovation As Dance 38:09 Incentives And Motivation 40:51 Demco SAIC Case Study 44:08 Pheasant Metaphor Budgets 47:12 Avoiding J Work 49:55 Manager Air Cover Tips 52:03 Phase Gates And Control 55:53 Ego And Incentive Traps 59:54 Christensen Inside Vs Spinout 01:03:58 Pi Shaped Innovators 01:08:16 No Excuses Innovation Preview 01:11:33 Wrap Up And Where To Find About Bruce Vojak Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators and Innovation Code, founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. He advises executive teams and boards on how to find, support and unleash serial innovators inside mature firms. Website: https://breakthrough-innovation-advisors.com Book: Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast hosted by Aidan McCullen — 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker, author of Undisruptable — where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Conversations with the world's leading authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI, creativity and the ideas shaping tomorrow. About the host Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable (Wiley). Learn more or enquire about booking him for a keynote: https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen/ Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Serial Innovators, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com Follow and listen: Website: https://theinnovationshow.io About the host: https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen/ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
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Bruce Vojak — Navigating the Politics of Breakthrough Innovation (Part 2 of 3)
05/14/2026
Bruce Vojak — Navigating the Politics of Breakthrough Innovation (Part 2 of 3)
"I see dead people." That was Nancy Dawes' answer when Bruce Vojak asked her how she did it. The chemical engineer who took Olay from a dying brand to a billion-dollar product line wasn't being mysterious — she was telling him she saw patterns no-one else did. And the real burden, she realised, wasn't seeing them. It was getting an entire organisation to see them too. In part two of our Serial Innovators series, Bruce Vojak returns to unpack the chapter most innovators learn the hard way: the politics. In over 90% of a mature firm, resources, people and management attention are locked onto today's products. Breakthrough innovation has to fight all of it — for capital, for headcount, for strategic oxygen — and that fight is political by design. Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms (with Ray Price and Abby Griffin), founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. In this conversation, Bruce reveals: The Galileo scenario — why a serial innovator looks at the same data as everyone else and sees a completely different solution Why politics loses its negative meaning the moment you realise it is the only way to actually serve the customer Strategic coherence vs tactical coherence — and the one question to ask before you push any breakthrough idea into your firm "Crossing the bridge" from the naïve view (invention is sufficient, the manager will recognise it) to political pragmatism The four elements of trust — competence, reliability, openness, concern — that buy a serial innovator the right to be heard Why every breakthrough story Bruce found came from an emergent team, not a pre-formed innovation team The "Stone Soup" model of recruiting allies one favour at a time The Disneyland queue problem of selling internally — you think you've got buy-in, and then there are ten more people behind the next corner Soft influence (planting seeds, telling stories, "people tolerate my conclusions but act on their own conclusions") and hard influence (data, prototypes, signed purchase orders, customer pull-through) "The best marketing research is a signed purchase order" — the line Bruce still uses as a filter today Buckminster Fuller's outlaw quote, and his trim tab metaphor — how one person, properly placed, can move the whole ship Chuck House's HP defiance and the line that captures every serial innovator who ever risked their job for the work: "I wasn't trying to be defiant. I just wanted a success for HP. It never occurred to me it might cost me my job." 00:00 Sponsor Message 00:25 Why Breakthroughs Stall 01:15 Meet Bruce Vojak 02:36 Seeing Hidden Patterns 06:14 Innovation Lenses 09:28 Strategic vs Tactical Coherence 10:37 Reframing Politics 11:57 QWERTY Switching Costs 14:27 Owning the Political Work 18:00 Trust and Early Wins 21:14 Crossing the Bridge 30:04 Convincing Many Stakeholders 31:40 Engaging Allies Slowly 33:01 Emergent Teams Not Assigned 38:21 Innovation as Team Sport 39:10 Positioning for Strategy Fit 43:26 Too Many Innovators 44:38 Proof via Purchase Orders 46:25 Outlaw Area and Trim Tab 50:17 Politics Navigation Diagram 53:15 Manager Perspective Teaser 55:46 Wrap Up and Sponsor About Bruce Vojak Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators and Innovation Code, founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. He advises executive teams and boards on how to find, support and unleash serial innovators inside mature firms. Website: Book: Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast hosted by Aidan McCullen — author of Undisruptable, keynote speaker and former pro athlete — where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Conversations with the world's leading authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI, creativity and the ideas shaping tomorrow. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. Kyndryl helps leaders harness AI-powered consulting and managed-service capability for smarter decisions, faster innovation and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Serial Innovators, with thanks to Kyndryl: Follow and listen: Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Bruce Vojak — The Hourglass Model of Breakthrough Innovation
05/13/2026
Bruce Vojak — The Hourglass Model of Breakthrough Innovation
Most companies think innovation is a straight line. Bruce Vojak spent years studying the people who prove otherwise. Bruce Vojak is co-author of Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms (Oxford University Press). In this bonus episode of The Innovation Show, he joins Aidan McCullen for a focused look at the Hourglass Innovation Model — the descriptive framework that maps how serial innovators actually move from an interesting problem to a flawless product launch. In this conversation, Bruce reveals: Why the Hourglass Model is descriptive, not prescriptive — and why that matters How serial innovators often redefine the problem before they solve it The Tom Osborne story — how reframing a feminine hygiene brief from diaper to garment changed everything Why serial innovators can appear completely unproductive for months — and why that is actually the work How they were practising customer empathy and design thinking before those ideas had names Why Execute — the stage most firms obsess over — is just one of five tasks How to use the model as an honest self-diagnostic: am I doing these things, or is it really the organisation? Chapter topics 00:00 Hourglass Model Intro 00:31 Stage Gate vs Hourglass 01:15 Redefining the Problem 04:16 Pragmatism and Empathy 06:27 Deep Dive Understanding 07:49 Experiment and Iterate 08:39 Nonlinear Flow Explained 10:02 Org Maturity and Politics 11:47 Normalize and Self Assess 12:53 Wrap Up and Sponsor About The Innovation Show The Innovation Show with Aidan McCullen is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Conversations with world-class authors, scientists, and practitioners on disruption, innovation, leadership, and the ideas shaping tomorrow. About Bruce Vojak Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators and Innovation Code, founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. He advises executive teams and boards on how to find, support and unleash serial innovators inside mature firms. Website: https://breakthrough-innovation-advisors.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bvojak/ Book: Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms https://amzn.to/4f7Y85q This episode is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. Learn more at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Serial Innovators, with thanks to Kyndryl: Listen and follow: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Bruce Vojak — Serial Innovators: The Hidden Power Inside Mature Firms (Part 1)
05/07/2026
Bruce Vojak — Serial Innovators: The Hidden Power Inside Mature Firms (Part 1)
"These are the most important people you've never heard of." After interviewing more than 50 serial innovators inside the world's largest mature companies, Bruce Vojak knows something most boards don't: a tiny minority of people — roughly 1 in 500 inside a large firm — quietly create the breakthrough products that fund everything else. They have no formal mandate. They are often almost fired. And without them, the S-curve flatlines. Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms (with Ray Price and Abby Griffin), founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and a former engineering executive who has spent over a decade studying how breakthrough innovation actually happens inside big organisations. This is part one of a multi-part series with host Aidan McCullen on Bruce's life's work. In this conversation, Bruce reveals: Why the humble carrot peeler is the clearest example of how innovation redefines the basis of competition How Tom Osborne at Procter & Gamble almost lost his job twice — before launching the billion-dollar Always Ultra brand The Tom Osborne quote every product team should hang on the wall: his products were "love letters to his customers" Why it is not marketing, it is "customering" — and why customer-driven beats market-driven every time The three roles inside the stage-gate process — inventor, champion, implementer — and why serial innovators play across all three Why stage-gate is brilliant for incremental innovation and lethal for breakthrough work The MP5 model: motivation, personality, perspectives, preparation, process and politics — what serial innovators bring vs. what they develop Why the politics is the work — and why pushing the boulder up the hill is Sisyphean by design The hiring insight that changes everything: "I want people who want to do the work innovators do, not people who want to be an innovator" How Iain McGilchrist's master and emissary, Charles Handy's S-curves and Thomas Kuhn's paradigms all converge inside one good innovator Why early success is a curse — and what to do when your organisation has forgotten how it found its first product Chapters: 00:00 Why Serial Innovators Matter 00:31 Sponsor and Series Setup 01:11 Meet Bruce Vojak 02:45 Defining Innovation 04:08 Carrot Peeler Breakthroughs 05:54 Market Expansion Examples 07:56 What Is a Serial Innovator 08:44 Hiring and Spotting Innovators 10:32 Curse of Early Success 15:19 Punished for Innovating 17:34 Tom Osborne at P&G 19:53 Digging Deep for Insight 22:18 Bootlegging to Launch Ultra 27:25 When Innovators Check Out 33:17 Incremental vs Breakthrough 36:04 S Curves and Culture Tension 42:03 Stage Gate vs Iteration 43:24 Switch to Video and Diagrams 44:30 Stage Gate Overview 45:09 Stage Gate Basics 46:58 Innovation Roles Explained 48:21 Serial Innovators Across Roles 50:34 Customer Driven Discovery Loop 53:37 Seeing Patterns Metaphors 55:13 Motivation And Role Friction 01:02:50 MP5 Model Origins 01:04:33 Traits Motivation Politics 01:16:07 Innovation Process Diagram 1.7 01:21:57 Wrap Up Sponsor Outro About Bruce Vojak Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators and Innovation Code, founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. He advises executive teams and boards on how to find, support and unleash serial innovators inside mature firms. Website: LinkedIn: Book: Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast hosted by Aidan McCullen — author of Undisruptable, keynote speaker and former pro athlete — where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Conversations with the world's leading authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI, creativity and the ideas shaping tomorrow. This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Serial Innovators, with thanks to Kyndryl: Follow and listen: Website: Apple Podcasts: Spotify: YouTube: LinkedIn:
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Jeff & Staney DeGraff — The Art of Change (DeGraff Trilogy Finale)
04/27/2026
Jeff & Staney DeGraff — The Art of Change (DeGraff Trilogy Finale)
"Organisations love innovation, but they hate their innovators." Jeff and Staney DeGraff return to The Innovation Show to close out Aidan McCullen's DeGraff trilogy with their book The Art of Change. Their argument is direct: change rarely fails because of bad strategy or weak execution. It fails because leaders bring the wrong mindset — treating change like a linear project when change is actually a paradox to be held. In this conversation, Jeff and Staney reveal: Why the man who saved Operation Warp Speed got passed over for promotion — and what his story tells every innovator about the cost of being right The Jonas Salk warning every change-maker should hear: they won't notice, then they'll say you're doing it wrong, then they'll call you unprofessional, then they'll take credit for your work Why apathy and alignment are the deadliest signs in any organisation The seven core paradoxes of change — and the four-step paradox mindset cycle that breaks the deadlock Why facts don't change minds (the Harriet Beecher Stowe story Lincoln told to prove it) How Sears actually invented the digital economy and how mindset cost them the future Why "deviance first, alignment later" is the funnel every leader gets backwards The CIO joke that isn't funny: Career Is Over as soon as you take the job Why the first pancake is never a good pancake — and what FAIL really stands for Chapters: 00:00 Innovation in the AI era 01:03 Sponsor and book intro 01:40 Why change fails 02:36 Trilogy origins 06:12 Paradox and mindset 07:58 Why organisations punish their innovators 10:28 Luis, Rapid X, and Operation Warp Speed 16:52 Meaning over happiness 18:06 Time, not targets 19:45 The paradox mindset cycle 24:34 Marriage and money paradox 28:15 Conflict fuels change 32:27 Missed futures examples 36:44 Practice beats theatre 38:04 Builders versus bureaucrats 41:05 Skin in the game 42:35 Blocked by superiors 43:45 Leaders spot talent 44:49 Disruptors and failure 48:05 Boundaries create freedom 51:43 Innovation needs hideouts 53:59 Stories build culture 59:45 The seven paradoxes explained 01:07:38 Deviance, then alignment 01:13:10 The paradox mindset cycle 01:18:26 Final takeaways and wrap About Jeff and Staney DeGraff Jeff DeGraff is the "Dean of Innovation" — Clinical Professor of Management at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, founder of the Innovatrium, and author of multiple bestselling books on creative leadership. Staney DeGraff is co-founder of the Innovatrium and Jeff's longtime collaborator. Together they've worked with half the Fortune 500 on what it actually takes to make change stick. 📘 The Art of Change — 🌐 About The Innovation Show The Innovation Show with Aidan McCullen is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Each week, Aidan sits down with world-class authors, scientists, and practitioners to call out the "Emperor is naked" moments and explore disruption, transformation, leadership, and the ideas shaping tomorrow. Connect 🌐 📨 Substack (and a chance to win a copy of The Creative Mindset): 🎧 Apple Podcasts: 🎧 Spotify: 🔗 LinkedIn: Sponsor This series is brought to you by Kyndryl. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at . #ParadoxMindset #JeffDeGraff #TheArtOfChange #Innovation #ChangeManagement #Leadership #TheInnovationShow #AidanMcCullen #Thinkers50 #InnovationPodcast #LeadershipPodcast #DisruptionTheory
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Creativity Is a Skill: Jeff & Staney DeGraff on the C.R.E.A.T.E. Method (Clarify to Evaluate)
04/22/2026
Creativity Is a Skill: Jeff & Staney DeGraff on the C.R.E.A.T.E. Method (Clarify to Evaluate)
Description: Creativity isn’t reserved for geniuses—it’s a skill you can learn, practice, and compound over time. In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen sits down with Jeff and Staney DeGraff to explore their practical framework for everyday creativity: the C.R.E.A.T.E. method. Based on decades of research and real-world application, they break down how innovation actually happens—not through lightning bolts, but through small, iterative wins. From clarifying the real problem to evaluating ideas effectively, this conversation reframes creativity as a disciplined, learnable process. Sponsored by Kyndryl, this episode also includes a giveaway for subscribers. What You’ll Learn: Why creativity is a learnable skill (not a talent) The power of small wins and iterative thinking How to identify the real problem before solving it Techniques like SCAMPER, analogies, and storyboarding Why evaluation—not ideation—often determines success How constraints and failure fuel innovation The C.R.E.A.T.E. Framework: Clarify – Define the real problem through iteration Replicate – Reapply ideas across domains Elaborate – Generate ideas using creative techniques Associate – Connect ideas through analogy and systems thinking Translate – Turn ideas into compelling stories Evaluate – Select the best ideas using structured methods Timestamps: 00:00 Sponsor and Giveaway 00:45 Creativity as Learnable Skill 04:59 Find Your Creative Rhythm 11:11 Constraints and Small Wins 20:57 Clarify the Real Problem 25:25 Replicate and Reapply Ideas 29:01 Elaborate With Wordplay 36:43 Associate Through Analogies 40:43 Translate Into Story 46:09 Evaluate Ideas Wisely Featured Book: The Creative Mindset by Jeff & Staney DeGraff Find the DeGraffs: Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50 Innovation Award winner, keynote speaker Ireland, and host of The Innovation Show—the only podcast ever to receive a Thinkers50 award.
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Innovation Isn’t Harmony—It’s Conflict | The Innovation Code Explained
04/15/2026
Innovation Isn’t Harmony—It’s Conflict | The Innovation Code Explained
What if the real driver of innovation isn’t alignment—but conflict? In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen is joined by Jeff and Staney DeGraff, co-authors of The Innovation Code, to explore a powerful idea: innovation emerges from the tension between opposing perspectives—not from consensus. Drawing on decades of research and real-world application, they introduce four archetypes that shape how individuals and organisations innovate: The Artist (creation & ideas) The Engineer (process & execution) The Athlete (performance & results) The Sage (values & culture) Each brings strengths—and blind spots. The key? Not eliminating conflict—but orchestrating it. In this episode: Why alignment can actually kill innovation The role of constructive conflict in high-performing teams How different mindsets clash—and why that’s essential The lifecycle of innovation and who leads at each stage Why organisations fail when they can’t change their worldview How to build cultures of adaptability and reinvention Featured Book: The Innovation Code by Jeff & Staney DeGraff Find the DeGraffs: Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50 Innovation Award winner, keynote speaker Ireland, and host of The Innovation Show—the only podcast ever to receive a Thinkers50 award.
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AI and the Octopus Organization: Autonomy, Distributed Intelligence, and Faster Decision-Making
04/08/2026
AI and the Octopus Organization: Autonomy, Distributed Intelligence, and Faster Decision-Making
AI is triggering a “big bang” in how organizations operate—and those that adapt fastest will win. In this episode, Stephen Wunker and Jonathan Brill explore the concept of the Octopus Organization, where intelligence is distributed, decisions happen at the edge, and workflows—not jobs—are automated. Drawing on biology, they explain how autonomy, governance, and visibility can coexist to unlock speed, resilience, and innovation. The discussion dives into overcoming organizational debt, avoiding groupthink and analysis paralysis, and shifting from rigid hierarchies to adaptive “kill web” structures. Real-world examples—from L’Oréal’s rapid product cycles to AI-powered patent creation at Deep Invent—highlight how companies are already transforming. This episode is essential listening for leaders looking to redesign their organizations for the AI era.
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Split the Pie: Barry Nalebuff on Fair Negotiation, Game Theory, and Better Deals
04/01/2026
Split the Pie: Barry Nalebuff on Fair Negotiation, Game Theory, and Better Deals
How do you negotiate firmly, fairly, and effectively — without becoming a jerk? In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen speaks with Barry Nalebuff — Yale professor, entrepreneur, and author of Split the Pie — about a principled approach to negotiation built around one simple idea: identify the pie, the extra value created only when both sides reach agreement, and split it equally. Rather than relying on pressure, posturing, or arbitrary bargaining, Barry shows how negotiation can become a logical, ethical, and data-driven process. Drawing on cooperative game theory and real-world business experience, he explains why most people misunderstand what is actually being negotiated — and how that confusion leads to bad deals and bad relationships. The conversation includes examples from: Barry’s mother buying her rented home, Coca-Cola’s acquisition of Honest Tea, a negotiation with a domain-name squatter, grant funding and workload-sharing examples, lease-breaking, tax-loss mergers, and everyday fairness disputes. This is a practical episode for founders, executives, investors, academics, negotiators, and anyone who wants to create better outcomes through principle instead of power plays. What you’ll learn in this episode: What Barry Nalebuff means by “the pie” Why fairness starts with understanding the real source of value How to negotiate without aggression or manipulation Why principles beat arbitrary numbers How game theory can improve business and life decisions How to avoid accepting less than your fair share Timestamps 00:00 Sponsor Message 00:28 Negotiation Without Jerk 01:50 Split The Pie Idea 03:29 Dollar Bill Example 05:15 Mom House Deal 11:49 Talmud Cloth Principle 14:22 Honest Tea Coke Bottles 17:16 Coke Buyout Terms 22:02 Domain Troll Negotiation 27:33 Holding Firm on Fairness 28:36 Principles Over Arbitrary Numbers 31:17 Anju and Bharat Interest Puzzle 35:35 Power and Hidden Pie Ethics 37:23 Game Theory and Spock Logic 42:09 Sisyphus Grant Split Example 48:46 Breaking the Lease Loss Pie 52:01 Mergers Tax Losses and Equality 53:12 Fairness Equity and Negotiation Ethics 56:28 Where to Find Barry 57:29 Sponsor and Sign Off
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Nokia Saw iPhone Coming - So What Went Wrong?
03/24/2026
Nokia Saw iPhone Coming - So What Went Wrong?
What if Nokia saw the iPhone coming and still couldn’t stop it? In this episode, strategy professor Timo Partanen, former Nokia market intelligence leader (2001–2009), reveals what was really inside Nokia’s internal iPhone threat briefing presented to senior leadership. Nokia had tracked Apple for years. They saw the signals like touchscreen innovation, strategic hires, and shifting user expectations. The iPhone’s hardware wasn’t the surprise. The real shock was Apple’s ecosystem. From its exclusive partnership with Cingular (AT&T) to alliances with Google and Yahoo, Apple didn’t just launch a product, it launched a new business model. One that exposed Nokia’s blind spot: a hardware-first culture in a platform-driven world. We explore why clear warnings didn’t lead to action, how strategy broke down between leadership and execution, and what today’s companies can learn about disruption, partnerships, and transformation. This is a story about missed shifts, internal friction, and the difficulty of turning insight into impact.
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Nokia’s Comeback Explained: Emotion, Strategy & Boardroom Decisions
03/18/2026
Nokia’s Comeback Explained: Emotion, Strategy & Boardroom Decisions
How did Nokia survive one of the most dramatic collapses in business history? In this episode, we explore the hidden driver of strategy under pressure: emotion. Drawing on research based on 100+ interviews inside Nokia between 2007 and 2013 , INSEAD’s Quy Huy and Aalto University’s Timo Vuori join Aidan McCullen to explain how large organizations can execute radical pivots—not just through analysis, but through structured emotion regulation. We unpack how Nokia moved from denial, fear, and rigid thinking to a disciplined, data-driven, and emotionally aware strategy process that enabled it to exit mobile phones and rebuild around networks and 5G. You’ll learn: Why strategy fails when emotions go unmanaged How boards can shape better decisions by regulating—not suppressing—emotion The role of consultants, teams, and partners in expanding strategic thinking Why discussing failure systematically leads to better outcomes How to design strategy processes that work under uncertainty This is not just a story about Nokia—it’s a blueprint for any organization navigating disruption, uncertainty, and high-stakes decisions. Sponsored by Kyndryl – helping the world’s leading organizations modernize and run mission-critical systems for smarter decisions and lasting competitive advantage.
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Everyone Thinks the iPhone Killed Nokia. They're Wrong!
03/10/2026
Everyone Thinks the iPhone Killed Nokia. They're Wrong!
Most people believe the iPhone killed Nokia. But the real story behind Nokia’s collapse is far more complex — and much more human. At its peak Nokia controlled nearly 50% of the global mobile phone market and had over one billion customers. Yet within a few years the company lost the smartphone war as Apple and Google reshaped the industry. In this episode we continue our deep dive into the research of Quy Huy and Timo Vuori, whose study reveals how fear inside Nokia distorted communication and decision-making. Senior leaders felt intense pressure from competitors and investors, while middle managers feared delivering bad news. The result was silence, denial, and what the researchers call “collective lies.” We explore how Nokia became trapped by its Symbian platform, how short-term financial pressures undermined long-term innovation, and why leadership dynamics and organizational culture can determine the fate of even the most dominant companies. The lesson: strategy often fails not because of technology — but because leaders stop hearing the truth.
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Who Killed Nokia? How Fear and Emotion Derail Strategy, Innovation, and Truth-Telling.
03/05/2026
Who Killed Nokia? How Fear and Emotion Derail Strategy, Innovation, and Truth-Telling.
Nokia didn’t lose the smartphone battle because it lacked smart people or a strategy deck. It lost because fear and shared emotions quietly reshaped attention, filtered information, and weakened truth-telling. Quy Huy (INSEAD) and Timo Vuori (Aalto University)—authors of the 2016 research on Nokia’s collapse—explain how leaders hid emotions behind “technology and finance talk,” how dissent was punished, and how misaligned fearformed: executives feared competitors and shareholders while middle managers feared their bosses. We connect the dots to psychological safety, power traps, poker-face leadership, burnout, and what this teaches leaders facing AI disruption today. Find Quy Find Timo
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