How to Lead with Courage and Vulnerability, feat. Dr. Terence Lester (Enneagram 8)
Release Date: 09/04/2025
The Enneagram in Therapy (Part 1): How to Use It With Care, Clarity, and Clinical Wisdom
Typology
What does it mean to use the Enneagram in therapy responsibly? In Part 1 of this two-part conversation on Typology, Anthony Skinner and I lay the groundwork for therapists, counselors, and coaches who want to responsibly integrate the Enneagram into clinical practice with wisdom and care. Together, we unpack what the Enneagram is—and what it isn’t—in the therapy room. It’s not a diagnosis. It’s not a substitute for evidence-based modalities. And it should never flatten complexity or bypass deeper trauma work. I also share practical wisdom from decades of work as a therapist,...
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The Future of Mental Health: Psychedelics, Trauma Recovery, and the Enneagram
Typology
There are conversations that stretch you a little. And then there are conversations that gently but firmly rearrange the furniture in your mind. This week, I sat down with Keith Kurlander and Will Van Derveer—co-founders of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute—to talk about something that’s generating a lot of curiosity and, let’s be honest, some anxiety: psychedelic-assisted therapy. Before you brace yourself, this isn’t a hype session. It’s a thoughtful, grounded conversation about trauma, the nervous system, and what happens when traditional therapy isn’t enough to reach the...
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When Therapy Speak Goes Too Far, with Joe Nucci
Typology
In this episode of Typology, I sit down with therapist and author Joe Nucci for a thoughtful, wide-ranging conversation about the Enneagram, mental health, and the growing misuse of therapeutic language in our culture. Joe—an Enneagram Three—shares his own journey with the Enneagram, the hidden shame dynamics of Threes, and how public success can quietly pull us toward performance instead of integrity. Together, we explore why tools like the Enneagram work best as maps, not MRIs—helpful for self-awareness and empathy, but dangerous when they turn into rigid labels. We also dig into...
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The Defender’s Way: How Enneagram Eights Can Build Cultures of Care Without Losing Power”
Typology
What happens when Enneagram Eight energy grows up, softens its edges, and learns to lead with both strength and soul? In this episode of Typology, Ian Morgan Cron sits down with restaurateur, entrepreneur, and conscious capitalism advocate Dan Simons, co-owner of Founding Farmers, for a wide-ranging, deeply human conversation about power, protection, and what it really means to build a culture of care. Dan is brand-new to the Enneagram—and quickly discovers he’s an Eight with a strong Nine wing, a compelling combination that blends moral clarity with empathy, decisiveness with nuance, and...
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Enneagram Six Wisdom: Songwriter Brad Warren on Anxiety, Humor, Faith, and Healing After Loss
Typology
What happens when the worst thing you’ve been afraid of actually happens—and you’re still standing? In this episode of Typology, I sit down with songwriter Brad Warren—an Enneagram Six, a man in long-term recovery, a husband, a father, and someone who has walked straight through unimaginable grief and come out the other side with humility, humor, and hard-won wisdom. Brad is the kind of person who tells the truth without posturing, who can laugh at himself without diminishing himself, and who understands—deeply—that fear doesn’t disappear just because you name it. But naming it...
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The Hidden Cost of Performance: Steve Cuss on Anxiety, the Enneagram Three, and Becoming Your True Self
Typology
What happens when the need to appear competent becomes the very thing that disconnects us from others—and from ourselves? In this deeply honest and surprisingly funny conversation, Ian welcomes author, speaker, and Enneagram Three, Steve Cuss for a wide-ranging dialogue on anxiety, performance, false self, and the quiet freedom that comes with becoming more human-sized. Drawing from Steve’s experience as a hospital chaplain, pastor, and leadership consultant, they explore why our most polished coping strategies often come from fear, how predictable patterns keep us stuck, and why anxiety...
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Jimmy Carter, the Enneagram, and the Life That Comes After Striving, with Andrew Greer
Typology
What if your most meaningful work begins after you stop striving to prove yourself? In this warm, wide-ranging conversation, I sit down with old friend, songwriter, filmmaker, and Enneagram Two Andrew Greer for a heartful exploration of loneliness, love, boundaries, creativity, and what it really means to live a good life. Andrew opens up about the hidden sadness behind the Enneagram Two’s gift for connection—the ache that often fuels the desire to help, anticipate, and care for others. Together, we unpack how pride, control, and fear of being a burden can quietly shape relationships,...
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Rediscover the Christmas Story You Thought You Knew, with AJ Sherrill (Replay)
Typology
This Christmas, we’re delighted to bring back one of our most beloved conversations with Enneagram Three, pastor, and author AJ Sherrill. In this replay, AJ joins me to revisit the Nativity story—not as the sentimental tale we often breeze past each year, but as a rich, multilayered narrative pulsing with mystery, courage, vulnerability, and divine surprise. AJ shares his own journey into spiritual direction, what it’s teaching him about listening, presence, and compassion, and how the Enneagram continues to shape his inner world. We explore why the season invites us to slow down, pay...
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Caring for Every Type at Christmas: A Holiday Conversation with Christina Wilcox (Replay)
Typology
With the holidays just around the corner, we’re bringing back a conversation that continues to deliver relational gold. Whether you heard it the first time or you’re discovering it now, this replay with author and Enneagram teacher Christina Wilcox offers a beautifully practical and deeply compassionate look at how the Enneagram can transform the way we show up for one another during the most emotionally charged season of the year. In this episode, Christina shares her journey of discovering herself as an Enneagram Six—along with the courage, clarity, and self-understanding that...
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Awakening in the Second Half: Jen Hatmaker on Loss, Love, and Letting Go
Typology
What happens when the life you built—carefully, faithfully, and publicly—splits down the middle in a single night? On this episode of Typology, I sit down with bestselling author and beloved cultural commentator Jen Hatmaker to talk about her stunning new memoir, Awake. Jen, an Enneagram Three with a courageous streak that can look a whole lot like an Eight, opens up about the “before-and-after date” that changed everything—July 11, 2020—when her 26-year marriage ended, and her whole world cracked open. Together, we explore what it means to wake up in midlife: to grief and...
info_outlineIn this week’s episode of Typology, I sit down with Dr. Terence Lester—an Enneagram Eight, author of From Dropout to Doctorate, and the visionary founder of Love Beyond Walls. Terence’s story is as powerful as it is inspiring. From his early years in Atlanta to leading a movement that uplifts those experiencing poverty and homelessness, his journey embodies both courage and compassion.
Together, we explore what it means to be an Enneagram Eight in the trenches of community work—wrestling with control, burnout, and the temptation to over-function. Terence opens up about a devastating car accident that reshaped his sense of identity, his relationship with productivity, and ultimately, his capacity for gratitude.
We also dive into the intersection of action and contemplation, the influence of Henri Nouwen on Terence’s life, and the healing power of reconciliation in his own family story. Along the way, Terence reminds us that leadership isn’t about posturing but about vulnerability, presence, and the willingness to walk alongside others in their pain.
This conversation is an invitation to rethink how we serve, how we love, and how we grow. You’ll walk away with profound insights about resilience, healing, and the transformative power of the Enneagram.
ABOUT OUR GUEST
Dr. Terence Lester is a storyteller, public scholar, speaker, community activist and author of From Dropout to Doctorate. He is the founder and executive director of Love Beyond Walls, a nonprofit organization focused on raising awareness about poverty, homelessness and community mobilization. He serves as the director of public policy and social change and as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky (HBCU). He received his PhD with a concentration in public policy and social change from Union Institute and University. Terence has authored four additional books with IVP, including one with his sixteen-year-old daughter, Zion, titled Zion Learns to See: Opening Our Eyes to Homelessness. The other titles include I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, and All God’s Children: How Confronting Buried History Can Build Racial Solidarity.
Terence is known for nationwide campaigns that bring awareness to homelessness, poverty and economic inequality. His awareness campaigns have been featured on ML K50, CNN, Good Morning America, Essence, TEDx, TVONE, Creative Mornings, USA Today, NBC News, Black Enterprise, Rolling Out, Upworthy and more. These campaigns have been viewed by millions of people worldwide. Terence is happily married to his best friend, Cecilia, and they have two amazing children, Zion Joy and Terence II.
Learn more about Dr. Lester by visiting his website at www.terencelester.org or follow on social media at @imterencelester or @lovebeyondwalls.