Typology
Welcome to Typology, a podcast that explores the mystery of the human personality and how we can use the Enneagram typing system as a tool to become our most authentic selves. Hosted by author, speaker, and counselor, Ian Morgan Cron, Typology features interviews with recognized Enneagram teachers, bestselling authors, psychologists, theologians, artists, business leaders, neuroscientists, and others who are using the Enneagram as a path for personal transformation.
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Courageous Conversations: Why We Struggle to Ask for What We Want (and How to Change It) with Attia Qureshi
04/09/2026
Courageous Conversations: Why We Struggle to Ask for What We Want (and How to Change It) with Attia Qureshi
Last week, we kicked off our Courageous Conversations series with a fresh look at building emotional confidence. This week, we lay the groundwork for how personality, emotional regulation, and awareness all play into navigating conversations that matter. I sat down with Attia Qureshi—an expert in negotiation and persuasion—but what unfolds isn’t just about getting what you want. It’s about why we want what we want…and what’s really driving us underneath it all. Attia shares a moment of deep rejection from her childhood that led her to build what she calls an “exoskeleton” of strength. And as we talked, it became clear how many of us are still walking around with some version of that same armor—negotiating, relating, and even loving from a place of protection rather than connection. We explored how that plays out in everyday life—how we handle conflict, how we ask for what we need, how we respond when we feel threatened or unseen. And what I appreciated most about Attia is that she doesn’t just talk about tactics—she talks about transformation. About moving from control to curiosity. From winning to understanding. From guarding yourself…to actually showing up. This is such an interesting topic that we invited Attia back for a second episode, where we go even deeper into her book Never Settle and unpack how her core negotiation strategies apply to each Enneagram type. Think of it as taking everything we talk about today and making it incredibly practical and personal for how you move through the world. And to help you get started, Attia has put together a fantastic Negotiation by Enneagram Type cheat sheet you can grab at attiaqureshi.com/typology. Pull up a chair. This one’s going to get under the hood—in the best possible way.
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Courageous Conversations: The Inner Work that Builds Confidence
04/02/2026
Courageous Conversations: The Inner Work that Builds Confidence
This week, we're kicking off a multi-week series on how to have courageous conversations. We'll be digging into the foundations of emotional confidence, strategies for negotiation, and how to have difficult conversations. Today, we’re taking a fresh look at our conversation with Alicia Michelle to learn how to slow down your inner world and regulate your thoughts, your emotions, and your reactions before you ever step into a hard conversation. We’re talking about building emotional confidence. Not the loud, chest-thumping kind. I mean the quiet, grounded ability to stay present when things get uncomfortable…when the stakes are high, the emotions are rising, and every instinct in your body is telling you to either shut down or go on the attack. Here’s the truth: every meaningful relationship—at home, at work, in leadership—requires negotiation. Not just contracts and deals, but expectations, needs, boundaries, and repair. And if you don’t have emotional confidence, those conversations can go sideways fast. That’s why today’s guest, Alicia Michelle, is such a gift. She brings wisdom, honesty, and a kind of steady clarity that helps us see what’s really happening underneath our reactions—and how to show up differently. Because the goal isn’t to win the conversation. It’s to stay in it…with courage, curiosity, and just enough self-awareness to not blow the whole thing up. So if you’ve been avoiding a conversation, replaying one that didn’t go well, or gearing up for one you know is coming—this episode is for you. Let’s dive in.
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Replay: When the Life You Built Breaks Open w/Jen Hatmaker
03/26/2026
Replay: When the Life You Built Breaks Open w/Jen Hatmaker
What happens when the life you built—carefully, faithfully, and very publicly—splits down the middle in a single night? This week on Typology, we’re revisiting one of the most powerful conversations we’ve had on the show—a replay of my interview with bestselling author and cultural truth-teller Jen Hatmaker. Jen, an Enneagram Three with a courageous edge that sometimes looks a lot like an Eight, joined me to talk about her memoir Awake and the “before-and-after date” that changed everything—July 11, 2020— when her 26-year marriage ended and the life she knew cracked wide open. In this conversation, we explore what it means to wake up in midlife: to grief and betrayal, to shedding scripts you never consciously chose, to loosening your grip on approval, and to discovering what actually matters in the second half of life. We also dig into how Threes navigate identity, success, and failure—especially when life refuses to follow the plan. Jen shares how therapy, embodiment work, and radical honesty helped her rebuild—not for optics, but for something sturdier and truer. If you’re in a season of change—or if life has recently pulled the rug out from under you—this episode still hits with the same quiet force. Think of it as a hand on your shoulder and a light for the next few steps. ABOUT JEN HATMAKER Jen Hatmaker is a bestselling author, award-winning podcaster, speaker, and fierce advocate for women living in freedom and agency. With 14 books—including four New York Times bestsellers—along with her beloved For the Love podcast, Jen Hatmaker Book Club, and more, she reaches millions with her signature mix of humor, vulnerability, and wisdom. Her newest book, , (released on September 23, 2025), chronicles her raw, real-time journey through the shocking end of her 26-year marriage and surprising reinvention. She lives in a creaky old farmhouse, loves 90s country, and drinks Almond Joy creamer like it’s a personality trait. Find her at JenHatmaker.com.
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Feeling Different? A Deep Dive into the Enneagram 4 Experience with Dudley Delffs
03/19/2026
Feeling Different? A Deep Dive into the Enneagram 4 Experience with Dudley Delffs
There are some conversations that don’t just inform you—they find you. This was one of those for me. In this episode, I sit down with my friend Dudley Delffs—author, therapist, and a fellow self-preservation Four—and what unfolds is less of an interview and more of an honest, unguarded conversation between two people who’ve spent a lifetime trying to tell the truth about their lives…and sometimes wondering what it costs to do that. We talk about the long journey of being a Four—the early years of feeling different, the instinct to hide parts of your story, and the slow, sometimes painful work of learning how to bring those parts into the light. Along the way, we wander into territory that might feel familiar: creativity, envy, addiction, belonging, and that quiet, persistent question many of us carry: What have I done with my life? And yet, this isn’t a heavy conversation—it’s a human one. There’s laughter, there’s tenderness, and there are a few moments where something deeper breaks through…the kind of moments that remind me why I love doing this work in the first place. If you’ve ever felt like you don’t quite fit—even in rooms where you clearly do… If you’ve wrestled with whether your story is too much—or somehow not enough… Or if you’re trying to make peace with your past without losing who you are in the process… I think this conversation might meet you right where you are. Come listen.
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How the Enneagram Transforms Leadership and Workplace Culture
03/12/2026
How the Enneagram Transforms Leadership and Workplace Culture
Most leaders think workplace problems are about strategy, performance, or communication. But what if the real issue is something deeper—something invisible shaping how people interpret everything that happens at work? In this episode of Typology, Anthony and I explore how the Enneagram reveals the hidden motivations driving behavior inside teams and leadership groups. When people begin to understand why they—and their colleagues—think, react, and communicate the way they do, everything starts to shift. We talk about what happens when organizations move beyond personality labels and start using the Enneagram as a practical tool for leadership, conflict, and culture. If you lead people, work on a team, or have ever wondered why certain workplace dynamics keep repeating themselves… this conversation might change the way you see your office forever.
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Part 2: The Enneagram in Therapy (What It Looks Like in the Room)
03/05/2026
Part 2: The Enneagram in Therapy (What It Looks Like in the Room)
In Part 2 of our conversation on using the Enneagram in therapy, we move from theory to lived experience in the room. Anthony and I discuss how type can be understood as an adaptive survival strategy shaped by early attachment and trauma—and how that framing reduces shame instead of reinforcing it. We talk about what it looks like when the Enneagram is actually working in session: increased self-observation, greater emotional regulation, and more compassion. As a therapist, your type doesn't clock out when the session starts, so we dig into the importance of self-awareness and countertransference, explore how the Enneagram can either heal or harm in couples work, depending on whether it increases curiosity or contempt. Whether you’re a clinician or someone doing your own inner work, this episode invites you to hold the Enneagram lightly—and people reverently. When it’s used well, it doesn’t replace therapy. It deepens it. ============================================== Download the free Check out the Follow Ian on social at @ianmorgancron and @typologypodcast
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The Enneagram in Therapy (Part 1): How to Use It With Care, Clarity, and Clinical Wisdom
02/26/2026
The Enneagram in Therapy (Part 1): How to Use It With Care, Clarity, and Clinical Wisdom
What does it mean to use the Enneagram in therapy responsibly? In Part 1 of this two-part conversation on Typology, Anthony Skinner and I lay the groundwork for therapists, counselors, and coaches who want to responsibly integrate the Enneagram into clinical practice with wisdom and care. Together, we unpack what the Enneagram is—and what it isn’t—in the therapy room. It’s not a diagnosis. It’s not a substitute for evidence-based modalities. And it should never flatten complexity or bypass deeper trauma work. I also share practical wisdom from decades of work as a therapist, priest, and Enneagram teacher, offering guidance for using the Enneagram in a way that increases compassion rather than contempt, flexibility rather than rigidity, and insight rather than shame. At its best, the Enneagram helps us see people not as problems to solve, but as stories shaped by fear, longing, and adaptation. Used wisely, it becomes a powerful reflective tool that deepens emotional intelligence, strengthens therapeutic relationships, and supports real transformation. When the Enneagram is used well, it doesn’t replace therapy. It deepens it.
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The Future of Mental Health: Psychedelics, Trauma Recovery, and the Enneagram
02/12/2026
The Future of Mental Health: Psychedelics, Trauma Recovery, and the Enneagram
There are conversations that stretch you a little. And then there are conversations that gently but firmly rearrange the furniture in your mind. This week, I sat down with Keith Kurlander and Will Van Derveer—co-founders of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute—to talk about something that’s generating a lot of curiosity and, let’s be honest, some anxiety: psychedelic-assisted therapy. Before you brace yourself, this isn’t a hype session. It’s a thoughtful, grounded conversation about trauma, the nervous system, and what happens when traditional therapy isn’t enough to reach the deepest layers of pain we carry. We explored how trauma shapes our personalities, how it imprints on the body, and why insight alone often doesn’t create lasting change. As someone who cares deeply about the Enneagram and recovery, I found this especially compelling. So much of our personality structure is built around adaptation—strategies that once kept us safe but now quietly run the show. Keith and Will explain how psychedelic-assisted therapy, when done legally and in carefully structured clinical settings, may help people access and heal places that feel otherwise unreachable. We also talk about the risks, the ethics, and the importance of discernment. This isn’t about chasing peak experiences. It’s about healing what’s unfinished. If you’ve ever felt stuck in patterns that insight alone couldn’t untangle… if you’ve wondered whether deeper healing is possible… this conversation might open a door. LEARN MORE ABOUT WILL AND KEITH WILL VAN DERVEER, MD, is a leader in the adoption of integrative psychiatry practices to treat mental health issues. He is cofounder of the Integrative Psychiatry Institute and Integrative Psychiatry Centers and cohost of The Higher Practice Podcast for Optimal Mental Health. He has published research on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Dr. Van Derveer has published research on MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD [1] and written book chapters in the fields of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy and other clinical applications of psychedelic compounds. His passion is finding effective relief from psychological suffering using a vast array of the most natural approaches possible. In addition to traditional medical training, He is a meditation instructor and has trained in shamanism, EMDR, somatic experiencing, internal family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy, and hypnosis. KEITH KURLANDER, MA, LPC, is cofounder of the and and cohost of . He graduated Naropa University in 2005 with a master’s degree in Transpersonal Counseling Psychology, and he has practiced integrative psychotherapy and coaching with individuals, couples and groups for over 15 years. Keith’s work as a coach focuses on celebrities, influencers, entrepreneurs, and CEOs who want to make huge changes in their lives, overcome long-standing patterns, and achieve greater levels of fulfillment. Keith specializes in helping individuals achieve optimal mental health and peak potential. Social Links & Website (for promotional use) - Keith Kurlander, MA, LPC (Keith) | (Will) (Keith) | (Will) (Shambhala; March 31, 2026),
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When Therapy Speak Goes Too Far, with Joe Nucci
02/06/2026
When Therapy Speak Goes Too Far, with Joe Nucci
In this episode of Typology, I sit down with therapist and author Joe Nucci for a thoughtful, wide-ranging conversation about the Enneagram, mental health, and the growing misuse of therapeutic language in our culture. Joe—an Enneagram Three—shares his own journey with the Enneagram, the hidden shame dynamics of Threes, and how public success can quietly pull us toward performance instead of integrity. Together, we explore why tools like the Enneagram work best as maps, not MRIs—helpful for self-awareness and empathy, but dangerous when they turn into rigid labels. We also dig into Joe’s new book, Psycho Babble, discussing how clinical terms like narcissist, OCD, and trauma have become everyday adjectives—and what it costs us when labels replace discernment, curiosity, and real relationship. This is a grounded, honest conversation about growth, character, and what it actually means to become a healthier version of yourself—without turning self-awareness into self-avoidance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT JOE NUCCI Joe Nucci is an expert in breaking down how people talk about mental health. He’s a psychotherapist who corrects widely misused terms, adds valuable nuance and explains complex ideas in ways anyone can understand. He can take a mental health lens to any hot button issue. Anyone who listens to him will walk away knowing themselves and others a little better. Joe reached over 10 million people in his first 6 months of posting content. His book "Psychobabble" explores why mental health information is so confusing to navigate and how to more easily understand different perspectives about mental health. He also has an upcoming podcast, being produced by Luminary Podcasts, where he will take deeper dives into the different mental health topics that he explores on Instagram, Facebook and Tiktok @joenuccitherapy
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The Defender’s Way: How Enneagram Eights Can Build Cultures of Care Without Losing Power”
01/30/2026
The Defender’s Way: How Enneagram Eights Can Build Cultures of Care Without Losing Power”
What happens when Enneagram Eight energy grows up, softens its edges, and learns to lead with both strength and soul? In this episode of Typology, Ian Morgan Cron sits down with restaurateur, entrepreneur, and conscious capitalism advocate Dan Simons, co-owner of Founding Farmers, for a wide-ranging, deeply human conversation about power, protection, and what it really means to build a culture of care. Dan is brand-new to the Enneagram—and quickly discovers he’s an Eight with a strong Nine wing, a compelling combination that blends moral clarity with empathy, decisiveness with nuance, and fire with calm. Together, Ian and Dan explore how Eights aren’t just challengers—they’re often defenders: leaders shaped by early experiences of injustice who instinctively stand up for the vulnerable. Along the way, they talk candidly about: Why anger can be a tool rather than a liability when it’s consciously harnessed How leadership failures are often listening failures (and the three most powerful words a leader can say) How putting emotional well-being on equal footing with profit actually increases performance, retention, and long-term value What a healthy workplace should feel like when you walk through the door (hint: think Labrador retriever, not shark tank) This is a masterclass in evolved leadership and a hopeful vision of capitalism done with conscience. If you’re a leader, an Enneagram Eight, or someone longing for work cultures that don’t crush the human spirit, this conversation will leave you both challenged and encouraged—in the best possible way. Listen in and pull up a chair. There’s a seat for you at this table. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Dan Simons Dan Simons is regarded as a leading voice in mission-driven business practices, known for championing people-centric culture and responsible industry standards while developing systems that deliver profitability. He and his partner, Michael Vucurevich, are Co-Owners of Founding Farmers Restaurant Group in partnership with the North Dakota Farmers Union. Their goal is to generate profits for American family farmers, earn farmers a larger share of the food dollar, and influence the sourcing decisions of suppliers and others in the hospitality industry. They operate eight sustainably run restaurants, one DC-based distillery, and a full service catering and event design company. He teaches courses at The George Washington University, hosts a podcast (Founding DC), and sits on the advisory boards of the DC chapter of Conscious Capitalism, OpenTable, and the Health Action Alliance Women's Health at Work Program. He blogs at and can be found across most social channels @DanSimonsSays. Visit to learn more.
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Enneagram Six Wisdom: Songwriter Brad Warren on Anxiety, Humor, Faith, and Healing After Loss
01/16/2026
Enneagram Six Wisdom: Songwriter Brad Warren on Anxiety, Humor, Faith, and Healing After Loss
What happens when the worst thing you’ve been afraid of actually happens—and you’re still standing? In this episode of Typology, I sit down with songwriter Brad Warren—an Enneagram Six, a man in long-term recovery, a husband, a father, and someone who has walked straight through unimaginable grief and come out the other side with humility, humor, and hard-won wisdom. Brad is the kind of person who tells the truth without posturing, who can laugh at himself without diminishing himself, and who understands—deeply—that fear doesn’t disappear just because you name it. But naming it does change the game. We talk about the Enneagram Six’s instinct to scan the horizon for danger, to rehearse conversations that never happen, and to catastrophize not because they’re weak—but because they care. A lot. Brad shares how losing a child forced him to face his worst fears head-on, and how recovery, faith, and accountability helped him learn the difference between imagined catastrophe and lived reality. There’s a kind of quiet courage in the way he describes trusting God—not a God who’s looking to smite him, but one who’s patiently inviting him to rest. Along the way, we explore humor as both a survival strategy and a spiritual practice, the surprising connection between humility and laughter, and how Sixes learn to move from fear-driven vigilance to faith-filled presence. We also touch on marriage, loyalty, religious deconstruction with gratitude instead of bitterness, and the life-saving power of people who are willing to tell you the truth when your mind is lying to you. This episode is funny, tender, honest, and deeply human. It’s about fear—but it’s even more about trust. And what it looks like, day by day, to choose it anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Brad Warren Brad Warren is a Nashville-based songwriter and artist best known as one half of the hitmaking Warren Brothers. He has co-written major country hits recorded by Tim McGraw, Toby Keith , Keith Urban, Faith Hill , Martina McBride, Dierks Bentley, Jason Aldean and more. Brad is also the host of the Good Grief Good God podcast. He and his wife Michelle lost their oldest son Sage in 2020 and the podcast is in honor of him. Brad covers an array of other topics (recovery, God, mental and physical health, and The Music Business) as well as grief. Guests have ranged from Sheryl Crow and Amy Grant to Scott Hamilton and Charles Esten.
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The Hidden Cost of Performance: Steve Cuss on Anxiety, the Enneagram Three, and Becoming Your True Self
01/08/2026
The Hidden Cost of Performance: Steve Cuss on Anxiety, the Enneagram Three, and Becoming Your True Self
What happens when the need to appear competent becomes the very thing that disconnects us from others—and from ourselves? In this deeply honest and surprisingly funny conversation, Ian welcomes author, speaker, and Enneagram Three, Steve Cuss for a wide-ranging dialogue on anxiety, performance, false self, and the quiet freedom that comes with becoming more human-sized. Drawing from Steve’s experience as a hospital chaplain, pastor, and leadership consultant, they explore why our most polished coping strategies often come from fear, how predictable patterns keep us stuck, and why anxiety is so contagious in families, churches, and organizations. Along the way, they unpack the Enneagram Three’s drive to succeed, the exhaustion of self-presentation, the difference between ambition and authenticity, and why true maturity looks a lot like being relaxed—no masks required. Expect stories, laughs, hard-earned wisdom, and a refreshing reminder that you don’t have to win the room to belong in it. If your nervous system needs a deep breath and your soul could use some permission to stand down from proving itself, this episode is for you. About Steve Cuss Steve Cuss, M.Div. is a pastor, former chaplain, and founder of Capable Life, which helps people lower internal and relational anxiety in the workplace and homeplace. Steve is a Spiritual Care Professional in the Association of Clinical Pastoral Education, holding 1600 hours of supervised ministry in CPE and a Masters degree focusing on Family Systems Theory and Theology. Steve, his wife, Lisa, and their two sons and a daughter live in Erie, Colorado. Connect with Steve at: Website: and Soul Care Intensives: Podcast: |
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Jimmy Carter, the Enneagram, and the Life That Comes After Striving, with Andrew Greer
01/01/2026
Jimmy Carter, the Enneagram, and the Life That Comes After Striving, with Andrew Greer
What if your most meaningful work begins after you stop striving to prove yourself? In this warm, wide-ranging conversation, I sit down with old friend, songwriter, filmmaker, and Enneagram Two Andrew Greer for a heartful exploration of loneliness, love, boundaries, creativity, and what it really means to live a good life. Andrew opens up about the hidden sadness behind the Enneagram Two’s gift for connection—the ache that often fuels the desire to help, anticipate, and care for others. Together, we unpack how pride, control, and fear of being a burden can quietly shape relationships, and how learning to receive may be the most courageous spiritual practice of all. We also dive into Andrew’s new book, More Than a President, and explore Jimmy Carter as a quintessential Enneagram One—principled, disciplined, justice-driven, and far more impactful after the presidency than during it. This episode is a meditation on personality, vocation, and maturity—on shifting focus from résumé to soul, from achievement to love, from striving to rest. It’s thoughtful, funny, deeply human, and quietly challenging. Pull up a chair. This one stays with you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- About Andrew Greer Author, musician, and filmmaker, Andrew Greer has published three books, released multiple chart-topping recordings, and directed the PBS documentary Plainspoken, a film inspired by the lives of Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter and their neighbors in Plains, Georgia. A Texas native, and longtime Nashvillian, Greer now makes his home in Plains. Website: New Book: Instagram: Facebook:
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Rediscover the Christmas Story You Thought You Knew, with AJ Sherrill (Replay)
12/25/2025
Rediscover the Christmas Story You Thought You Knew, with AJ Sherrill (Replay)
This Christmas, we’re delighted to bring back one of our most beloved conversations with Enneagram Three, pastor, and author AJ Sherrill. In this replay, AJ joins me to revisit the Nativity story—not as the sentimental tale we often breeze past each year, but as a rich, multilayered narrative pulsing with mystery, courage, vulnerability, and divine surprise. AJ shares his own journey into spiritual direction, what it’s teaching him about listening, presence, and compassion, and how the Enneagram continues to shape his inner world. We explore why the season invites us to slow down, pay attention, and resist the frantic pace that so easily numbs our capacity for wonder. Together, we dig beneath the familiar Christmas imagery to uncover the often-misunderstood characters who surround the manger—the homeowner who offered radical hospitality, Zechariah rediscovering awe through silence, and even Herod, whose shadow side has more to teach us than we might expect. Their stories echo our own desires, fears, and growth edges in striking ways. We also have some fun speculating about the Enneagram archetypes present in the Christmas narrative—Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, and others—and how their unique postures toward God can inspire our own transformation. This episode is thoughtful, illuminating, and sprinkled with the kind of laughter and honesty that always seems to show up when AJ is with us. A perfect listen for Christmas Day. Settle in, take a breath, and join us as we rediscover the story beneath the story—and the God who meets us there.
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Caring for Every Type at Christmas: A Holiday Conversation with Christina Wilcox (Replay)
12/18/2025
Caring for Every Type at Christmas: A Holiday Conversation with Christina Wilcox (Replay)
With the holidays just around the corner, we’re bringing back a conversation that continues to deliver relational gold. Whether you heard it the first time or you’re discovering it now, this replay with author and Enneagram teacher Christina Wilcox offers a beautifully practical and deeply compassionate look at how the Enneagram can transform the way we show up for one another during the most emotionally charged season of the year. In this episode, Christina shares her journey of discovering herself as an Enneagram Six—along with the courage, clarity, and self-understanding that followed. Together, we explore how each type navigates holiday stress, joy, expectation, and connection…and how you can care for the people you love in ways that truly meet them where they are. You’ll learn: How to support friends and family of every Enneagram type through the busyness and emotional intensity of the holidays Practical tools for managing social anxiety, especially for Sixes Why presence and gratitude matter so deeply, particularly for Fours—and how all of us can cultivate them Simple, insightful practices for building healthier, more attuned relationships this time of year Whether you’re hoping to deepen your emotional intelligence, strengthen your closest relationships, or simply bring more kindness and awareness into your holiday rhythms, this episode is a gift worth unwrapping again. Lean in, listen well, and let the Enneagram help you love the people in your life a little better this Christmas. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ P.S. For a limited time, take 40% off all Enneagram Courses through the holidays. Use the discount code HOLIDAY40 .
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Awakening in the Second Half: Jen Hatmaker on Loss, Love, and Letting Go
12/11/2025
Awakening in the Second Half: Jen Hatmaker on Loss, Love, and Letting Go
What happens when the life you built—carefully, faithfully, and publicly—splits down the middle in a single night? On this episode of Typology, I sit down with bestselling author and beloved cultural commentator Jen Hatmaker to talk about her stunning new memoir, Awake. Jen, an Enneagram Three with a courageous streak that can look a whole lot like an Eight, opens up about the “before-and-after date” that changed everything—July 11, 2020—when her 26-year marriage ended, and her whole world cracked open. Together, we explore what it means to wake up in midlife: to grief and betrayal, to leaving behind scripts you never chose, to freedom from needing to be liked, to discovering what really matters in the “second half of life.” We dive into the Enneagram and the unique way Threes navigate identity, image, success, and failure—especially when life doesn’t cooperate with the plan. Jen shares how therapy, embodiment work, and raw honesty helped her rebuild, and why this memoir isn’t about spectacle, but about hope. This is a conversation about midlife transition, spiritual awakening, and the quiet miracle of becoming more fully yourself—right when you thought everything was falling apart. If you’re navigating change, heartbreak, faith shifts, or a midlife renaissance of your own, this episode will feel like a hand on your shoulder and a light on the path. ---------------------------------------------- ABOUT JEN HATMAKER Jen Hatmaker is a bestselling author, award-winning podcaster, speaker, and fierce advocate for women living in freedom and agency. With 14 books—including four New York Times bestsellers—along with her beloved For the Love podcast, Jen Hatmaker Book Club, and more, she reaches millions with her signature mix of humor, vulnerability, and wisdom. Her newest book, AWAKE: A Memoir, (released on September 23, 2025), chronicles her raw, real-time journey through the shocking end of her 26-year marriage and surprising reinvention. She lives in a creaky old farmhouse, loves 90s country, and drinks Almond Joy creamer like it’s a personality trait. Find her at JenHatmaker.com. CONNECT WITH IAN Follow Ian on Facebook or Instagram at @ianmorgancron and @typologypodcast. Check out Ian's website at **Interested in a 30-minute one-on-one virtual coaching session with Ian? Fill out this and we'll be in touch.
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Lynn Smith on Leadership Confidence and Overcoming the Brain Bully (Enneagram 3)
12/04/2025
Lynn Smith on Leadership Confidence and Overcoming the Brain Bully (Enneagram 3)
This week on Typology, we welcomed the incomparable Lynn Smith—former national news anchor turned communications strategist, executive coach, and proud (and newly discovered) Enneagram Three with a Two wing. And friends… buckle up. This conversation is a masterclass in emotional intelligence, presence, and what it means to pursue success without losing yourself in the chase. Fresh off taking the Typology Assessment, Lynn joined us in that familiar Three-ish blend of humor, candor, and high-octane energy, joking that the results made her want to immediately call her therapist. What unfolded from there was a remarkably vulnerable exploration of people-pleasing, approval-seeking, identity, and the hidden costs of a lifetime spent earning applause. Lynn pulled back the curtain on her years in broadcast news—an industry where worth is measured in seconds, headlines, and flawless delivery—and revealed the deeper story beneath her polished exterior: a lifelong drive to achieve, a tenderness inherited from her family’s immigrant narrative, and a powerful desire to help others communicate with confidence and authenticity. But the real gem of this episode is Lynn’s groundbreaking work on what she calls “the brain bully.” That inner critic. That saboteur whispering that you’re one misstep away from failure. That internal voice Threes know far too well. Lynn not only names it—she teaches you how to outsmart it. Her framework for dismantling fear and building resilient confidence is practical, empowering, and deeply human. And when she reveals her own brain bully’s name—“Bob”—you can’t help but laugh and exhale. Sometimes the most powerful breakthroughs come with a wink. We also wandered into a juicy conversation about magnetism versus authenticity, why your energy enters a room a full tenth of a second before you do, and how the Enneagram can radically improve communication across teams, industries, and families. Connect with Lynn Smith at or on socials at @lynnsmithtv CONNECT WITH IAN Learn more about the Enneagram at or follow Ian at @ianmorgancron and @typologypodcast on Instagram and Facebook P.S. Interested in a 30-minute one-on-one virtual coaching session with Ian? Fill out our interest form .
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Gratitude for each Enneagram Type
11/28/2025
Gratitude for each Enneagram Type
German-born spiritual teacher and self-help author Eckhart Tolle once wrote, "Acknowledging the good that you already have in your life is the foundation for all abundance." I found this to be true in my life as well, and as it turns out, expressing gratitude isn't just a sound spiritual practice. It's essential to our emotional and physical well-being. According to a recent study performed at Harvard Medical School, "Gratitude is strongly and consistently associated with greater happiness. Gratitude helps people feel more positive emotions, relish good experiences, improve their health, deal with adversity, and build strong relationships." How can you reap the benefits? While there are many beneficial exercises that can help you cultivate an attitude of gratitude, such as journaling, morning or evening reflections, and performing acts of kindness, many people focus their thoughts outward (Ex: I’m grateful for my children, a roof over my head, my job, etc.).It’s easy to lose sight of the good in ourselves. Instead, let’s focus inward. Tune in as Anthony and I share what we’re grateful for about each Enneagram type and why you should be too.
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The Sacred Ache and Beauty of Becoming with Heath Hardesty
11/20/2025
The Sacred Ache and Beauty of Becoming with Heath Hardesty
What happens when an Enneagram Two (or…maybe a Four?) takes a deep dive into the ache beneath our desire to be good, loved, and whole? This week, I sit down with Heath Hardesty, pastor and author of . What begins as a conversation about the Enneagram Two’s longing to help soon unfurls into an exploration of the soul — the ache for beauty, the mystery of shame, and what it means to live authentically before God. Together we explore: The difference between helping and hiding Why our “ache” might actually be a form of divine homesickness How beauty, poetry, and the transcendent lead us toward wholeness What dies — and what’s reborn — as we grow older and surrender our false selves The sacred invitation to move from doing ministry to stewarding mystery It’s equal parts theology, therapy, and literary love letter. Whether you’re a Two, a Four, or simply a human being trying to make sense of your inner world, this episode will remind you that becoming whole is less about striving and more about awakening. 🎙️ Listen now and discover the sacred ache that pulls us home. ABOUT HEATH HARDESTY Heath Hardesty is the author of All Things Together: How Apprenticeship to Jesus is the Way of Flourishing in a Fragmented World (Multnomah; 10/14/25). He serves as the lead pastor of Valley Community Church and is the founder of Inklings Coffee & Tea in the heart of downtown Pleasanton, California. Heath grew up in a blue-collar home and was a plumber’s apprentice in Colorado before becoming a pastor on the edge of Silicon Valley where he, his wife, and four kids now reside. He holds degrees in literature, leadership, biblical studies, and theology from the University of Colorado Boulder and Western Seminary in Portland. Visit him on IG@heathhardesty.
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Steve Taylor on Maturity, Mindfulness & Meaning (Enneagram 7)
11/13/2025
Steve Taylor on Maturity, Mindfulness & Meaning (Enneagram 7)
In this heartfelt, humorous, and deeply human conversation, Ian sits down with longtime friend — artist, filmmaker, professor, and Enneagram Seven — Steve Taylor. You may know him as the legendary provocateur who “invented irony for Christians,” but in this episode, we explore the terrain beneath the creativity, the energy, and the relentless forward motion that has defined so much of his life. Together we wade into the deeper waters of the second half of life — aging, character, grief, spiritual maturity, limitations, and the sacred invitation to move from doing to being. Steve speaks candidly about the shifting landscape of life at 67: the habits that no longer serve him the tender emergence of compassion learning to sit with grief rather than outrun it the uncomfortable art of slowing down how filmmaking and teaching have reshaped his inner life and the courageous (and often comical) struggle of a Seven learning to live in the present moment We talk about marriage, mortality, the ache of unfinished dreams, the sweetness of gratitude, the pains and gifts of aging, and the spiritual practices that are slowly rewiring Steve’s relationship with presence. Tune in to hear this rich conversation about Enneagram transformation, emotional intelligence, creativity, and the inner work of becoming whole. ABOUT STEVE TAYLOR Steve Taylor is a filmmaker, writer, producer and recording artist who earned his “Renaissance Man” stripes (Prism Magazine) from a body of work that’s garnered him multiple Grammy, Billboard, Telly, Addy and Dove awards and nominations. A southern California native, he was raised in Denver, Colo., and studied music and film at Colorado University. In 1983, Taylor began a career as a recording artist that spanned 12 years, selling over one million albums worldwide and garnering him two Grammy nominations for “Meltdown” (1984) and “Squint” (1993). In the process, he made history as the only artist to twice win Billboard Music Video Awards for self-directed music videos. As a concert artist, Taylor headlined four international tours, including acclaimed appearances at L.A.’s Universal Amphitheater and London’s Hammersmith Odeon. He was also lead singer in the MCA-signed modern rock band Chagall Guevara. Follow on or
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Wild Courage and the Heart of the Enneagram Three, with Jenny Wood and Carlina Daugherty
11/06/2025
Wild Courage and the Heart of the Enneagram Three, with Jenny Wood and Carlina Daugherty
What happens when two high-achieving Enneagram Threes sit down with an Enneagram Four? You get an electric, honest, and surprisingly tender conversation about ambition, fear, and what it really means to live courageously. In this episode, Ian sits down with Jenny Wood, former Google executive and author of Wild Courage: Go After What You Want and Get It, and her Chief of Staff, Carlina Daugherty, for an unfiltered look at the drive and depth behind the Enneagram Three. Together, they explore: · Why fear — not talent — is often the real barrier to success · The nine “wild” traits that fuel courageous leadership (and how to keep them from derailing you) · How two Threes with different subtypes actually make the perfect team · Jenny’s raw reflections on control, comparison, and rediscovering what “enough” really means · The second half of life — and why it’s less about achievement and more about awakening It’s an episode packed with laughter, candor, and the kind of vulnerability that reminds us: success without self-awareness isn’t success at all. 🎙️ Listen in and learn how to move from human doing to human being — with a dash of wild courage.
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Joel Miller on the Inner World of the Enneagram Five and the Power of Ideas
10/30/2025
Joel Miller on the Inner World of the Enneagram Five and the Power of Ideas
), a popular Substack celebrating literary culture. He is the author of several books, including (forthcoming, November 2025). His writing has appeared in Reason, the Washington Post, American Spectator, and National Review. He lives outside Nashville, Tennessee, with his wife, kids, dogs, and more books than space. Available now for pre-order: Follow on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player to learn more about the Enneagram and personal growth.
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Bad Thoughts: When a Preacher and a Shrink Team Up to Heal the Mind and Soul, with Judah Smith and Dr. Les Parrott and
10/23/2025
Bad Thoughts: When a Preacher and a Shrink Team Up to Heal the Mind and Soul, with Judah Smith and Dr. Les Parrott and
On this week’s episode of Typology, I’m joined by two remarkable guests who sit right at the intersection of faith and psychology: Dr. Les Parrott, a clinical psychologist and author, and pastor Judah Smith, who brings a preacher’s honesty and a comedian’s timing to our conversation. Together, they’ve written a new book called . It’s a lively and deeply honest dialogue between theology and therapy—between the pulpit and the couch. We dive into what Les calls the five “toxic thought patterns” that keep us stuck—guilt, shame, insecurity, entitlement, and unworthiness—and how reframing those internal narratives can lead to genuine healing. Judah opens up with surprising candor about his own inner critic, the pressure of ministry, and why he believes the future of the church might look a lot more like AA than Sunday morning at 10 a.m. It’s part Enneagram session (spoiler: Judah’s possibly a Seven), part theology class, and part group therapy—equal parts laughter, humility, and grace. You’ll hear Les explain why awareness is curative, Judah describe what it’s like to feel “freer in his soul,” and me wrestling right alongside them with what it really means to change our minds. If you’ve ever wondered how psychology and spirituality can work together to transform our lives—and not against each other—this conversation is for you. ABOUT OUR GUESTS Judah Smith is the lead communicator of , a thriving community with multiple locations and a global app, known for its cultural relevance and deep love for Jesus. He is the New York Times bestselling author of . Judah and his wife, Chelsea, live in Seattle, Washington. Dr. Les Parrott is a #1 New York Times bestselling author and psychologist who has been featured on Oprah, CBS This Morning, the Today Show, CNN, and The View, as well as in USA Today and The New York Times. His books, which include and many others, have sold over five million copies. Les and his wife, Leslie, a marriage therapist, are the creators of , a resource for couples. Les and Leslie live in Seattle, Washington.
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How Empathy Helps Us Experience Love Deeply, with Drs. Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
10/16/2025
How Empathy Helps Us Experience Love Deeply, with Drs. Bill & Kristi Gaultiere
What if the real key to spiritual transformation isn’t trying harder—but receiving love more deeply? In this heartfelt conversation, I sit down once again with Drs. Bill and Kristi Gaultiere—spiritual directors, therapists, and founders of Soul Shepherding—to explore what it means to truly receive and reflect God’s empathy. Drawing from their new book, Deeply Loved, the Gaultieres invite us to consider a radical truth: that spiritual transformation begins not with striving or self-critique, but with allowing ourselves to be seen, known, and loved—just as we are. Together, we unpack how shame, unconscious resistance, and old emotional wounds can block us from receiving love—from God, from others, and even from ourselves. Through vulnerable stories and spiritual wisdom, Bill and Kristi reveal how empathy heals the deepest fractures in our souls, allowing us to move from performance and perfectionism into grace-filled presence. We explore: Why self-empathy is essential to emotional and spiritual health. How each Enneagram type misses empathy in distinct ways. The difference between tactical and transformational empathy. How empathy, truth, and responsibility work together to produce growth. What it looks like to experience God’s empathy even in suffering and loss.
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Discover Your Instinctual Stack, with Elan Benami, EnneaApp Creator
10/09/2025
Discover Your Instinctual Stack, with Elan Benami, EnneaApp Creator
What is an Instinctual Stack? Do you know yours? We all have three instincts. None of us are absent one. However, one does tend to be dominant. But what are instincts and how do they influence how each type shows up in the world? In today’s episode, we revisit our conversation with Elan Benami, creator of the EnneaApp and author of Enneagram Patterns & Poetics, to provide you with a great overview of Instincts, Subtypes, and the Instinctual Stack and how they can play out in your personal and professional life. About Elan: Elan is an LPC with a MA in Transpersonal Counseling Psychology and BA in Philosophy. In addition to his own private counseling practice, Elan is the Clinical Director of - a non-profit that provides affordable counseling in Colorado. Elan was introduced to the Enneagram in 2008 by his first therapist. He then did intense studying with Lori Ohlson, who was his supervisor. Claudio Naranjo was Lori's primary teacher, so there is a deep kinship with his work. Other major Enneagram teachers who have shaped Elan include Helen Palmer, Russ Hudson, Don Riso, and Sandra Maitri. Elan and Lori Ohlson have co-facilitated many Enneagram classes/workshops, most of them in the narrative tradition. Through Lori’s Enneagram material (of over 25 years of teaching the Enneagram), Elan created the , initially for the purpose of having something to quickly reference between sessions. Through the years, he has adapted the content to be more reflective of his own experience while also preserving Lori’s lineage. The app has over 1.5 million downloads.
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Why Love Feels Addictive: Enneagram Insights with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby
10/02/2025
Why Love Feels Addictive: Enneagram Insights with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby
What if the ways we keep getting stuck in relationships aren’t just bad habits, but the natural outworking of how we’re wired to bond—and to protect ourselves from pain? In this episode of Typology, I sit down with psychologist and couples counselor Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby (a freshly discovered Seven with an Eight wing) to talk about the intersection of attachment, addiction to love, and the Enneagram. We explore why love itself can feel addictive, how that longing for connection sometimes binds us to the wrong person or pattern, and why recovery communities often work—they help us reattach to what’s good, true, and life-giving. Along the way we dig into common Enneagram pairings, the myth of perfect compatibility, and the real gift of learning to honor differences, see blind spots, and practice repair. If you’ve ever wondered why you tend to chase, withdraw, fix, or move on too quickly—and how to love with more courage and steadiness—you’ll find this conversation both practical and deeply hopeful. ABOUT DR. LISA MARIE BOBBY Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby is a licensed marriage and family therapist, psychologist, board certified coach and author of Exaholics: Breaking Your Addiction to an Ex Love. She is the founder of Growing Self Counseling and Coaching, an internationally recognized practice focused on love, happiness, and success. With over 120K monthly podcast downloads on Love, Happiness, and Success, she offers expert advice on relationships, personal development, and professional growth. Dr. Bobby has been featured in Oprahdaily.com, The New York Times, CNBC, Women’s Health, and Real Simple, making her a trusted authority in the media on all things love, life design, and self-improvement.
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One Choice Away: Justin and Trisha Davis on Marriage, Forgiveness, and the Enneagram (Types 8 & 3)
09/25/2025
One Choice Away: Justin and Trisha Davis on Marriage, Forgiveness, and the Enneagram (Types 8 & 3)
Today, we’re joined by Justin (8w7) and Trisha Davis (3w2), a couple whose story holds both heartbreak and a hard-won hope. We talk honestly about the Eight–Three dance in marriage—intensity, drive, image, and protection—and how those same strengths can be magic when we’re healthy and toxic when we’re not. We also dive into their new book, One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles that Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. They remind us that real transformation isn’t about muscling through—it’s about naming the wound, choosing presence over performance, and practicing honest vulnerability. Justin shares how confusing help with weakness fueled secrecy and performance—and how grief became a doorway to healing. Trisha reflects on the Three’s chameleon move, learning to show up without over-achieving, and a wise reframing of the Enneagram as “not a weapon and not an excuse.” Together, they walk us through surviving an affair, pastoring through COVID, late-in-life family revelations, and the truth that forgiveness is not a one-and-done event. Their North Star: when they’re healthy, they’re magic; when they’re not, they’re toxic—and daily choices make the difference. If you’ve tried to achieve your way out of pain or sprinted past grief because it felt inefficient, this conversation will meet you in the messy middle. We explore relief vs. recovery, acting our way into new feelings, and why you can’t heal a wound you won’t name. It’s tender, practical, and full of hope. I hope you'll tune in. About our guests Justin and Trisha Davis are pastors, authors, speakers, and the founders of RefineUs Ministries. They’re not perfect. They’re not interested in pretending. They are passionate about helping others experience real healing and deeper connection. Together, they co-authored Beyond Ordinary: When a Good Marriage Just Isn’t Good Enough, and Justin’s book Being Real > Being Perfect: How Transparency Leads to Transformation is a USA Today bestseller. Justin and Trisha have been married for 30 years, have five kids and live in Indianapolis. — available wherever books are sold Justin & Trisha’s Website: http://justinandtrisha.com
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Wired for Relationship: Attachment Theory and Spiritual Growth with Dr. Todd Hall
09/19/2025
Wired for Relationship: Attachment Theory and Spiritual Growth with Dr. Todd Hall
In this episode of Typology, I sit down with Dr. Todd Hall to explore the profound ways attachment theory shapes not only our personal relationships but also our spirituality. Together, we unpack how the early bonds we form with caregivers influence our emotional health, the ways we relate to others, and even how we connect with God. Todd shares insights from his groundbreaking research on relational spirituality, reminding us that true spiritual formation is not just about what we know—it’s about how we experience love, connection, and trust in real relationships. We discuss the different attachment styles—secure, anxious, avoidant, and fearful—and how they show up in daily life and in faith. Along the way, Todd offers hope: insecure attachment styles are not destiny. Through healing relationships and spiritual practices, our relational patterns can be rewired toward greater security, freedom, and love. If you’ve ever wondered why relationships are so hard, why intimacy feels risky, or why your connection with God sometimes feels distant or fragile, this conversation will help you see yourself with fresh compassion—and invite you into a more integrated path of personal and spiritual growth. ABOUT TODD W. HALL, Ph.D. Todd W. Hall, Ph.D. is Professor of Psychology at Biola University’s Rosemead School of Psychology, a Faculty Affiliate in the Harvard Human Flourishing Program, and a licensed psychologist. He is the author of numerous books, including Relational Spirituality and The Connected Life. Dr. Hall is the founder of the Relational Spirituality Academy, which trains Christian leaders in the Relational Spirituality model of spiritual formation and coaching (). Connect on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn at @drtoddwhall
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The Art of Listening: An Eight Step Approach to Connection with Emily Kasriel
09/11/2025
The Art of Listening: An Eight Step Approach to Connection with Emily Kasriel
This week, we explore the art of listening and the complexities of human personality through the lens of the Enneagram with Emily Kasriel, an award-winning journalist, executive coach, and author of the new book, Deep Listening: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends, and Foes. Emily shares her journey of self-awareness and the importance of deep listening in our everyday interactions. She discusses her experiences at the BBC, the challenges of listening in high-stakes situations, and the powerful eight-step approach to deep listening outlined in her book. Discover how to create psychological safety in conversations, the significance of being present, and the value of curiosity in understanding others. We also examine the nuances of the Enneagram, helping listeners discern their personality types and how they can enhance their listening skills. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or a seasoned enthusiast, this episode is packed with insights that can transform your relationships and deepen your understanding of yourself and others. Key Highlights: The concept of deep listening and its importance in today's world The eight-step process for effective deep listening Personal anecdotes and reflections on self-awareness The interplay between personality types and listening styles Don't forget to grab a copy of Emily's book, Deep Listening, and join the conversation about how we can all become better listeners! Subscribe to Typology for more insights on personality and relationships!
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How to Lead with Courage and Vulnerability, feat. Dr. Terence Lester (Enneagram 8)
09/04/2025
How to Lead with Courage and Vulnerability, feat. Dr. Terence Lester (Enneagram 8)
In this week’s episode of Typology, I sit down with Dr. Terence Lester—an Enneagram Eight, author of From Dropout to Doctorate, and the visionary founder of Love Beyond Walls. Terence’s story is as powerful as it is inspiring. From his early years in Atlanta to leading a movement that uplifts those experiencing poverty and homelessness, his journey embodies both courage and compassion. Together, we explore what it means to be an Enneagram Eight in the trenches of community work—wrestling with control, burnout, and the temptation to over-function. Terence opens up about a devastating car accident that reshaped his sense of identity, his relationship with productivity, and ultimately, his capacity for gratitude. We also dive into the intersection of action and contemplation, the influence of Henri Nouwen on Terence’s life, and the healing power of reconciliation in his own family story. Along the way, Terence reminds us that leadership isn’t about posturing but about vulnerability, presence, and the willingness to walk alongside others in their pain. This conversation is an invitation to rethink how we serve, how we love, and how we grow. You’ll walk away with profound insights about resilience, healing, and the transformative power of the Enneagram. ABOUT OUR GUEST Dr. Terence Lester is a storyteller, public scholar, speaker, community activist and author of . He is the founder and executive director of , a nonprofit organization focused on raising awareness about poverty, homelessness and community mobilization. He serves as the director of public policy and social change and as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky (HBCU). He received his PhD with a concentration in public policy and social change from Union Institute and University. Terence has authored four additional books with IVP, including one with his sixteen-year-old daughter, Zion, titled Zion Learns to See: Opening Our Eyes to Homelessness. The other titles include I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, and All God’s Children: How Confronting Buried History Can Build Racial Solidarity. Terence is known for nationwide campaigns that bring awareness to homelessness, poverty and economic inequality. His awareness campaigns have been featured on ML K50, CNN, Good Morning America, Essence, TEDx, TVONE, Creative Mornings, USA Today, NBC News, Black Enterprise, Rolling Out, Upworthy and more. These campaigns have been viewed by millions of people worldwide. Terence is happily married to his best friend, Cecilia, and they have two amazing children, Zion Joy and Terence II. Learn more about Dr. Lester by visiting his website at or follow on social media at @imterencelester or @lovebeyondwalls.
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