REITs, Housing Policy and the Economy with Mark Kenney | EP138

Mark Kenney is a President and Chief Executive Officer at CAPREIT 
 Mark Kenney joined Canadian Apartment Properties Real Estate Investment Trust (CAPREIT), a TSX listed company, in 1998. In 2019, Mark was appointed President and Chief Executive Officer. 
 
As Canada’s largest publicly traded provider of quality rental housing, CAPREIT currently owns or has interests in approximately 67,000 residential apartment suites, townhomes and manufactured housing community sites well-located across Canada,  the Netherlands and Ireland. In 2020, CAPREIT was included in the S&P/TSX 60 Index. 
 
With over 30 years of experience in the multi-family sector and as President and Chief Executive Officer, Mark is actively involved in creating and implementing the strategic vision for the organization through the direction of company policy and oversight of the crucial divisions within CAPREIT, including property management operations, marketing, procurement, development, and acquisitions. A frequent contributor to BNN Bloomberg and other media, Mark is a passionate advocate for the role of Real Estate investor



In this episode we talked about:
* Mark’s Background and How he Got into Real Estate
* The Comparison of the Commercial Real Estate World of the 80s-90s and nowadays
* Difference between Commercial Real Estate and Residential Real Estate
* Pricing and Valuations of Industrial Multi-Residential
* Supply in Real Estate 
* Real Estate Deals in Suburban and Rural Areas
* Development Costs and Charges
* Areas of Investment into Manufacturing Housing
* CAPREIT Focus in terms of Real Estate Projects
* 2023-2024 Interest Rates Environment
* Advice to Newcomers

Transcription:

Jesse (0s): Welcome to the Working Capital Real Estate Podcast. My name's Jessica Galley, and on this show we discuss all things real estate with investors and experts in a variety of industries that impact real estate. Whether you're looking at your first investment or raising your first fund, join me and let's build that portfolio one square foot at a time. Ladies and gentlemen, my name's Jessica Gallen. You're listening to Working Capital, the Real Estate Podcast. My guest today is Mark Heney, president and Chief Executive Officer at Capri.

 

Mark joined Canadian Apartment Properties real estate investment trust, a TSX listed company in 1998. In 2019, mark was appointed president and chief executive officer as Canada's largest publicly traded provider of quality rental housing. Capri currently owns or has interest in approximately 67,000 residential apartment suites, town homes, and manufactured housing community sites. Well located across Canada, the Netherlands, and Ireland in 2020. Capri was included in the S N P and TSX 60 index.

 

Mark, how you doing today?

 

Mark (1m 3s): Great, Jesse, thanks for having me.

 

Jesse (1m 4s): Yeah, pleasure to have you on. You know, wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the current environment that we're in right now, you know, your background in the industry and, and Capri in general. But I guess, you know, maybe we could start with you have over 30 years experience in multifamily in that sector, and I was just curious to kind of get a little bit of a background of guests that we have on. It's always interesting to see how they got into the wild West. We called real estate.

 

Mark (1m 32s): Yeah, so I, I don't know, like, because I go back in time here to when I was growing up, I think it was very normal for young people to be interested in cars and real estate. It was, so, it wasn't anything that special about being drawn to real estate. I think like a lot of people I would daydream about real estate and back then it was probably just what it would be like to have a pool and a, and a big yard and, and a bit of a fascination how people got there, which kind of always stuck with me, but I didn't want to be a salesperson in real estate.

 

I was obviously just fascinated. Again, nothing unusual about that. And, and I found my, my way into, into real estate primarily because I probably wasn't the best student in the world and I, I really wanted to do this. So the thing I maybe haven't talked about a lot in the past was, it was an incredible opportunity because nobody, there was no competition. So a lot of my friends coming outta school we're lawyers and accountants and, and, and I, I was not the academic overachiever.

 

I really was always focused on just working. I didn't really understand why people went to school unless you're gonna become a doctor. I thought this isn't really helping me. And, and so I went into a field where there wasn't a lot of competition. I was one of the first people to get involved that, that had a degree and I stood out. And so the, the pool of people even today who you're competing with for a great career in real estate, especially on the property management side, I don't think it's fully understood by a lot of people.

 

Young people wanna go into tech, a lot of people wanna go into crypto or sales or something glitzy. But the cautionary tale is like, you know, who are you gonna be competing with in there and where can you really, you know, stand out.

 

Jesse (3m 37s): Yeah, fair enough. I tried to ask every time I have somebody with your amount of experience in the industry, I find I find the late eighties and early nineties commercial real estate world kind of fascinating. Not just in in North America, but specifically in the, in the kind of Toronto environment. And I find that, you know, younger people in, in the industry, I consider myself included in that. I think it's important for us to understand the history of, of some of the times that we've gone through in real estate, whether that's the early nineties, 2000, 2008 and, and what we're currently doing today.

 

But I'd like to just get your perspective. Obviously you're working in the industry during that time. Do you see any, any applications or do you see anything that you know, was happening back then that are reminiscent of, of what we're going through today?

 

Mark (4m 26s): Well, very different back then. Just to touch on what I said a minute ago, apartments in the eighties were the dirty cousin of all real estate sectors. Like nobody wanted to be involved in apartments. So that again, was a reason to go there. And I, I'd like to say I was a visionary and saw that the truth is, I, I got a raise every six months and that's why I stayed in it and by a raise, I mean, all they had to do was throw 500 bucks a year at me and I was there to stay.

 

Most people my age that had gotten into multifamily and it was starting to happen early nineties, would be lured into commercial immediately. Like if a commercial job was to present itself, you'd leave multifamily, go into commercial, and, and that was the general trend as you aspired to get into commercial in some form, especially office in Toronto at the time. So, so for me, I guess partially because I was, you know, excited to get a raise every once in a while I dragged into the sector longer and the longer I stayed, the more experience I had and the more sought after I became.

 

Jesse (5m 41s): So in terms of the kind of the history that you had with, with Kareed in, in the career in general, like I come from the, the office world and you know, I, I find it still kind of amazing today that, you know, we're very specific about when we're talking about real estate, whether it's rentable, square feet, everything's per square foot, and I talked to our apartment team and you know, we're going by either the door if it's, you know, by the unit or by the bed if it's student housing. But how, how have you seen that evolve over the last, even, even 10 years in terms of how it's, I feel like it's, you guys have now kind of been more formulaic than you may have been in the past, but it's, there still seems to be a difference between the pure commercial stuff and an apartment world.

 

Mark (6m 24s): So apartments, I'll give you an idea. Like in 1996, I worked for a company by, by the name of Real start. And one again, one of my career benefits with Real Start is I was hired as one of Canada's first multi province property managers. I was a district manager with Real start, but I was overseeing property in three different provinces. I, I think I was the only one in the country at the time. Okay. So the reason that's important is that the consolidation hadn't even started then.

 

There was the consolidation of big ownership pools in multifamily has only really happened in the last 15 years if at at most. And that's where all the career opportunities come from. So you've got for the first time a handful of big companies that you can have a, you know, a a traditional career of promotion if you're gonna be an employee, but most of the sector is still private. Most of it still is. And, and it's a great ownership path.

 

It's a great investment path. It's not necessarily a career path. And, and I think that now in multifamily there are institutional owners like Capri and Starlight Hazel View. You've got all these different companies that are large or, and you can have a progressive career from the entry level right to the right to the top kind of thing. But imagine a, a sector that's as old as real estate and multi-family in particular, where that opportunity's a new one. Still new, very, very few people when we're looking to hire, I, I can't find people with 10 years experience in the industry for senior jobs.

 

If they have 10 years of experience, they can pretty much name their own price.

 

Jesse (8m 11s): Yeah. And in terms of the last couple years, it's not, it's no surprise industrial multi-res, there's been some key sectors that have been red hot in terms of the demand, the the actual availability of the space. Why don't you give us a sense in terms of the, the last few years for multi-res, the pricing right now, the valuations that, that we saw. Were we just at a frothy time where the valuations were getting a bit disconnected from, from the actual real environment in terms of the rent?

 

Or do you have, do you take a different view on that?

 

Mark (8m 45s): No, I don't think so. I think my view is the institutions called cap rate or others that talk about cap rates, that's our game. The private market looks at price per door. They look at different whole set of different metrics, how much leverage they can get, is there yield spread? They don't care about yields, they just care about paying off their debt and, and they get security when they look at price per door. So when you look at our sector in general, the older assets, like we will say the, the plus 20 year assets are, are even with low capri today, trading at 30% of replacement costs.

 

In some cases it's basically 30 to 50 across the country. So when 97% of the market is private, like the rates are less than 3% of the market. Just to give you an idea, the apartment reach, now there's other institutional owners, but the REIT sector, all of us combined are less than 3%. Well then we'd be fool hearted to pay attention to just cap rates when the market is valuing apartments differently. So today, when you have the kind of housing crisis you have in Canada, this was, this is not gonna get solved overnight.

 

This is a a 10 year journey and we might have a chance of seeing some balance, but as the, as we continue to up our immigration numbers and don't outpace our development, we end up with a more and more pronounced problem. And, and so the fundamentals for multifamily are off the charts positive. The only, the only headwind we have is the potential government regulation and additional regulation which doesn't build homes that will not attract capital.

 

So we're in very, very interesting times right now.

 

Jesse (10m 31s): So I want to touch on that point. We recently had, Richard a Epstein is a professor of nyu and we were kind of talking about the regulatory environment in the US and Canada, the impact of some of these, the different policies that are being put in place. You were, you were on B N N a little earlier in 2022 discussing this, you know, this regulatory environment. We see this constant headline of affordable housing, the way we get to affordable housing, various pres prescriptive type of policies. But like you said, not necessarily addressing the supply constraints.

 

What is your view on that? Where, where do we get to a place where we actually can make an impact on, on housing? You know, the affordability aspect and just actually, like you said, building

 

Mark (11m 14s): Supply is you have to start with supply. Okay, in Canada, we have an affordability crisis and we have a supply crisis. They're, they're siblings, they're not the same thing, but they're absolutely family members. So when it comes to what needs to be done, well supply has to be addressed. So then you go affordability, well that's more of a government decision to help provide supports. Okay. Whether it be building all the housing requirements of Canada, like CMHC puts it at close to $3 trillion of investment that's required.

 

So the government can choose in a country where our, our debt is now our total lifelong country history debt is at a trillion, are we really gonna go 3 trillion further into the hole for the housing problem or are we gonna turn to the housing private sector to say help? So, I don't know, I've never, there's no example on the, on the history of the planet Earth and no example where the Hubble's telescope is ever seen a planet anywhere where taxes build homes, taxes do not build homes, taxes keep capital aside, uncertainty keeps capital at bay.

 

A clear path of investment will bring capital to work. So I think instead of like pointing fingers at who, who the boogeyman is, I think that as a country, if we do not awaken to, to the reality that the private sector has to be a big part of this, then, then the country just stays in, in the washing machine and the problem gets worse. You just can't continue to bring people into the country without, without a housing solution.

 

And we already don't have one for our own people. So we've gotta get focused on supply and, and I've got a lot of different views on, on why that supply problem exists.

 

Jesse (13m 8s): So I'd like to get into a couple of those, those views in terms of the supply, cuz you know, you hear, you hear a number of different reasons that we believe that the, this is the case. Whether it is the regulatory environment not being able to, to build, not be able to build certain asset classes. What do you see, you know, what's, what's your view on that? If you could name a couple on the supply end,

 

Mark (13m 30s): I'll give you one that nobody's talking about and hopefully this is interesting. Sure. Taxes, whatever, we gotta get through that gate. But then it's like, why don't we have affordability in housing in Canada? Well the number one distinguishing factor between Canada and the US is the cost of land. But why is land so expensive? We have a lot of empty land. We have a lot more empty land than the US has.

 

And, and so why? Well, the answer is in part that in Canada, if you need multifamily, it has to be on municipal services. Okay? If it's on municipal services, then you can put multi-family. Now, if you ever thought of it, when you drive in the countryside, you never see an apartment building. Why? Cuz it's not a municipal services. It's not because nobody wants a a sixplex there. It's cuz it's not a municipal services. Okay? So municipal services drives up the cost of land.

 

Cause municipals are doing nothing. Like they're slow, they're bureaucratic. There's a finite amount of land in our municipalities. Okay? So they have to expand hyper fast so that we can get things. So that's the land price issue. Then you have development fees. So before you even break ground, you in Toronto, you got $250,000 of land cost and $200,000 of, of development fees. Why? Because it has to be on municipal services. Okay. So then you go, well what do you do by that mark?

 

Well, if you look at the us you know, they, what, think of a, a very robustly built market, Dallas, Texas. Okay? In Dallas, Texas, they have what, what are called muni municipal utility districts muds. And in Dallas, Texas, there's 58 of them right now. And what those are is private sector building, municipal service hyper fast. So the private sector can do it more efficiently than municipalities can and they can do it faster and they can attract capital to do it.

 

Municipalities are capital constrained, they're efficiency constrained, they're ability constrained. So number one thing we can do is embrace a different way of getting more land to build more. In Canada, we got lots of land. There's no excuse for this. We've got a planning act that makes us put multifamily on municipal services. This is, nobody's talking about this. This is at the core of the affordability issue. Now interest rate Sure. And supply chain issues, sure.

 

But we, we, we, we can solve those problems. The one problem no one's been able to solve in Canada is land costs.

 

Jesse (16m 16s): So I'm thinking about some of these more, you know, suburban or rural areas where you actually don't have services. What does that structure look like in terms of actually getting that paid for in terms of, you know, is that something that you give credits to landowners that are there to have it built, but somebody's ultimately gotta pay for these services to, to get built? So you mentioned mud, so a private sector solution. How would something like that work in, in kind of our, our environment, our environment, let's say Ontario. Okay.

 

Mark (16m 44s): Have you ever been to a cottage? Sure. Have you ever been to a house in the country?

 

Jesse (16m 49s): Yeah.

 

Mark (16m 50s): Every single one of those properties is on a well and a septic, every single one without exception. Maybe it's a holding take, maybe it's a weeping bed, but they're all on wells. Okay. So it can be done. You look at manufactured home communities, they're all on, on their own water system. They all have their own private waste treatment. Okay. I love to talk about the example, the piece of land in Berry Ontario, a building lot in Berry Ontario cost about six to $700,000. That's on municipal services.

 

That exact same size piece of land five minutes away is about $15,000. You can't convince me that it, we know that it costs about $50,000 to private service a lot. Okay. And we know the province overseas, this, this is why I'm such a loud advocate for manufactured housing as part of the solution. It's not the urban solution, but it's part of the solution. We've told government you can have home ownership in Canada for under $200,000. That's the, the cost of a 1300 square foot manufactured home.

 

Sure it's not the traditional home, but people can get into the home ownership market and they're blocking them out of it right now by not permitting the zoning of these kind of communities. So when you think about it, 30 over 30 million Americans live in a manufactured home. It's been used to treat affordability for decades in Canada. We shut down the sector about 30 years ago and said no more. His multifamily needs to be on municipal services.

 

Jesse (18m 21s): So if there's such, like take that example, if that delta is that large between 600,000 and and 15,000, wouldn't there be, I'm thinking for just from an economic standpoint, once you have developers coming in and literally paying for those municipal services specifically per project, or is that just, isn't

 

Mark (18m 37s): That a good idea? That sounds like a good idea.

 

Jesse (18m 39s): You like that one? I just, I just made it up now I

 

Mark (18m 41s): Like he's listening to me. But I think it's a great idea.

 

Jesse (18m 44s): So that, okay, I just on the the other point there, you mentioned development, development cost. So the land cost piece, there's one, they're municipal services on the development cost. I mean, it's just from our, from my point of view, it's so expensive to build in when you hear these stats of how much development cost costs are as a percentage of the project. I don't know how we got to where we got today, but for listeners that don't know, can you talk a little bit about the development charges and costs for doing, you know, any given project, you know, in your portfolio and, and how onerous that is on the, on the developers?

 

Mark (19m 18s): Well, on the big cities it's over 200,000 a unit. 200 to $250,000 a unit. The land is 200 to 250,000 a unit. We haven't built anything yet. Like, so yeah, reduce those costs and then you've got the hard costs. But if we could knock 30, 35% out the cost of home ownership by being efficient, that's a good start. That helps things out. And then, and then overly supplied market will just bring balance into developer profits. That's a good idea.

 

So like, we've got answers here. There's a hundred percent answers. It's just sad that we're not embracing these, these solutions. It's, it's, it's instead, you know, on the manufactured home front, I call them tiny eco homes, like 1300 square feet is not actually tiny. It's a pretty decent size livable space, but they're stigmatized. People like to call trailer parks and all this, but forget that if you saw these new homes, you would, you would really have a hard time convincing anybody that they're, you know, a stigmatized way of living. It's dignified living.

 

Jesse (20m 18s): So we have a, we have a few guests that have come on, just investors in the states, different companies. And manufactured housing is, you know, big topic for a lot of the, a lot of different states for those, you know, when you talk to Canadians about it, it's just something that the average person I find they're not as familiar with and don't even know where it is in Canada. If we even have any you guys have invested in, in manufactured housing, what, what areas are these? You know, are guys everywhere?

 

Mark (20m 45s): Everywhere. They're, they're, they're, they're ideally saluted suited in remote locations where you can't get a carpenter, you can't get a brick builder, you can't get a whatever. They're built in a controlled environment and moved. So they're perfect for those locations. They're also perfect for rural locations. Like I, we have three communities outside of Aurelia and Barry. Okay, perfect locations, they're affordable. The people don't have to buy that $600,000 piece of land. They can rent that land, okay for two or $300 and they can buy a new home for $200,000.

 

This is extreme affordability. They don't have the capital outlay for the land and they do for the home, but they have a serviceable amount of debt less than the cost of rent. So, so why not give people the option? It's regulated by the province. There's with brand new infrastructure, you don't have the risk of aging infrastructure communities. And, and, and it's, it's kind of like there's no excuse quite frankly that we're not doing this and to say, oh, we don't know about it. Well, Canada was doing this for decades until planning acts were changed.

 

So that multi-family had to be on municipal services.

 

Jesse (21m 55s): And when did

 

Mark (21m 56s): All this, all this untapped land,

 

Jesse (21m 58s): When did that, that, sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, when did that happen? Were we, were, we basically mandated that it had to be on municipal

 

Mark (22m 5s): In the eighties when housing was affordable. Hmm. Don't remember in Canada, like immigration was never a topic because we had affordable housing. We've, we've hit the tipping point here, you know, probably 20 years ago and nobody woke up and now we're in a catastrophe and we're making it worse by, by putting more people in ho in homeless situation.

 

Jesse (22m 26s): So what do you see Mark, as the kind of going forward, if, if something isn't done here, is, is it the political will that's, that's kind of inh hindering this is, is it other factors that, that are really stopping us from being able to kind of push forward with some of these prescriptions?

 

Mark (22m 42s): I think, I think the narrative of blaming REITs or blaming parties is failing fast. I think nimbyism is quickly disappearing because the, the, the situation has become dire. So I'm hopeful that it takes a good reset to get, get people thinking I am, I'm frustrated by personality type, but I, I find it hard to believe that when we've got like such obvious examples that we can duplicate like municipal unit utility districts and manufactured homes as a, a solution and, and the whole host of things that we can do.

 

And we're not doing any of it. Not in event like we're talking, but problem. And I think I hopefully we're getting beyond the finger pointing and getting onto solution phase. But anybody in real estate I think owes Canada the obligation of speaking up. And I keep saying this, like we've gotta stop being polite about it. Like people need to start asking hard questions in public about why we're not pursuing solutions. So there are, there, there are, like the province of Ontario has, has, has, has taken action.

 

And, and that's, that's a, a decent step, but I think it, it it's, it's all hands on deck. Like as the, the REIT community, for example, REIT sector in Canada has 230,000 units planned of new, new apartment development. Now that's not just the apartment REITs, that's the, the diversify its as well that's in the pipeline and the government's talking about taxing REITs. So, so that's gonna disappear. So we got a pipeline and a and a and a and a and a solution.

 

But we've got, we've got a narrative around, I don't even know what it's around anymore that REITs are destroying affordability. Like if that's the case, then what's going on in Canada right now?

 

Jesse (24m 29s): When you say tax rates, you're talking about losing the kind of the flow through status that they were pretty much created for.

 

Mark (24m 35s): I think, I think there's a narrative that REITs don't pay tax and that's not true. Our unit holders pay income tax, those income tax rates are higher than corporate tax. Yep. So it's a narrative around big is bad, but we're tiny and, and, and we're not bad. So instead of like picking on big, I think pick on bad behavior is what I'm an advocate for. Like if there is bad behavior by actors out there, then those actors should be, should be corrected. But you can't, you can't chase someone because they're perceived as being a large entity.

 

You need to chase someone cuz their behavior is bad. So I'll give you an example. Cabret is only doing new construction apartments now. That's all we do. We're not buying the value add assets anymore, we're selling them. So how is this bad for Canada at a time when we're like, I don't understand, I'm lost.

 

Jesse (25m 25s): Yeah. Can't have it both ways.

 

Mark (25m 27s): You can't have it both ways.

 

Jesse (25m 29s): So Murray, I wanna be mindful of the time here, but I do want to talk a little bit on a positive note in terms of the, the projects that Capri is working on. Anything exciting in the pipeline that you'd, you'd wanna mention and you know, maybe even touch a little bit? I've know, I know that you're in Ireland in the Netherlands, which is kind of cool. I don't think we hear enough about that locally. So I'll Yeah, I'll let you go there.

 

Mark (25m 52s): Well our focus is really on Canada cuz the crisis is here and, and we have to contribute in any way we can here. So what I get very excited about is that we are still, we're doing quite a bit of disposition work, selling some of the older assets. I'm a big advocate for putting those assets in nonprofit hands. If you want to solve affordability, why not go to a targeted neighborhood that has affordability pro problems? Why not? Why not help those people?

 

And, and, and you can do it now and fast. I don't understand why you build something for a hundred cents on the dollar when you buy for something for 30 cents on the dollar now in a neighborhood that needs help. So I'm excited about that, that conversation and we're getting great, great traction with government finally understanding that this is a, a part of the solution. It's not, not not gonna solve affordability crisis, but it'll help some folks that are distressed potentially. And it's better than building new, I think I'm very excited about.

 

There's been a bit of a move away from Nimbyism and more into getting good entitlement and we're getting that on our land. So I'm very hopeful that those entitlements will, will obviously help the supply scenario whether we build on it or someone else does. We're doing our part in getting it ready for the market. And I feel very, very good about just, you know, always being a Canadian in the fundamentals of Canada. So I think that we're in, you know, living in one of the world's greatest countries and you know, the, the prospects and the fundamentals for real estate in this country are, are best in the world probably.

 

And everybody wants to live here. I think that, you know, as Canadians we are, we, we have proven that we can wake up from time to time and I think we're in that awakening stage right now of really getting serious to solve the problem.

 

Jesse (27m 41s): Fair enough. One thing I'd, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about the, the current interest rate environment and kind of, you know, the feds just announced the 25 basis point raised recently. You mentioned, I I've, I've read an article, either an article or there was something that you were talking about last year where Capri is, if not the leader, one of the longest debt companies. In terms of, in terms of your capital structure on the debt side, what do you see 20 23, 20 24, how do you see this environment playing out in terms of interest rates?

 

Mark (28m 15s): Well, our, we always do 10 year money when we buy. We always model that. We always do that on renewal. We're always inclined to do 10 or 15 year debt. So our ladder is long and our leverage is low. We have the lowest leverage of our peers and we have the longest debt ladder of our peers. That's great. We also have a very active disposition program in the affordable market. We're seeing lots of private buyers. Oddly enough, it's not in the core apartment market, it's in the affordable apartment market.

 

It's a very strange phenomenon and in part it's because a lot of these private guys were never invited to bid in the past and they're just anxious to be able to get their hands on some of this property and they love the price per unit. So as we're selling out of the, of the lowest here rent wise of the market, we are able to defer even further our, our refinancing requirements. So we're staying out of the debt market with the bet that things will improve in, in 2024 and beyond.

 

But it's all, it's all a matter of inflation data. You just gotta watch that inflation data inflation's coming down, then hopefully we see a return to, to more normalized rates. But I think that, you know, we're not gonna settle where we were. I I I see, you know, the return of 10 year high 3% rate money for multifamily.

 

Jesse (29m 41s): That makes sense. So Mark, we always wrap up with a couple quick questions for our guests. I'll, I'll start off here. What would you tell somebody that is getting into our industry, whether it's in multi-res or commercial real estate in general, you know, what advice would you give them?

 

Mark (29m 59s): Stick. Stick. If you love it, stick with it. You know, the advice I had way back in the day was that, you know, points of my career, I love my job and I didn't like my boss. That doesn't mean leave the sector, okay? It means get a new boss. So you do have control of that, but if you don't love what you do, don't do it. You got it's okay to make change and find, find what you love to do. If you do love what you do, don't give up. Stick with it. I, I have without exception, a group of friends go back to high school that have all achieved success.

 

Well, the ones that achieved success and the ones that stuck with, with, with what they like doing and if they stayed in the area, the, the market finds that, that enthusiasm, the market finds the talent. You have a responsibility to go seek out your best option. But don't seek it out too often cuz you had a bad Thursday afternoon. You know, don't be afraid to, to build some grit. But when you have to make those strategic changes, when, when, when it's just not working. If you don't like your boss, change, change your boss.

 

Jesse (31m 4s): What is a book, podcast newsletter that you'd recommend to listeners?

 

Mark (31m 8s): Too busy working. I, I don't, I don't know. This one seems pretty good.

 

Jesse (31m 12s): My guest today has been Mark Kenny. Mark, thanks for being part of Working Capital.

 

Mark (31m 15s): Thanks for having me.

 

Jesse (31m 24s): Thank you so much for listening to Working Capital, the Real Estate podcast. I'm your host, Jesse for Galley. If you like the episode, head on to iTunes and leave us a five star review and share on social media. It really helps us out. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me on Instagram, Jesse for galley, F R A G A L E. Have a good one. Take care.