The Breakup Theory

Conversations about collective liberation and ending things.

The Breakup Theory Episode 30 - WE ARE NOW LIVING IN THE HELLSCAPE OF POETIC SCIENCE w/ P. 01/19/2026

The Breakup Theory Episode 30 - WE ARE NOW LIVING IN THE HELLSCAPE OF POETIC SCIENCE w/ P. In this episode, I talk to my eternal roommate, P, about his new book, God, Artificial Intelligence, and Me. This is a really ambitious text that weaves together personal history with the history of Christianity, colonialism, technology, warfare, and resistance. It is a beautiful object in itself, with illustrations and pictures and innovative layout of text. It looks like a monster of a tome (and it definitely encompasses a cosmos), but P tries to draw the reader in without overwhelming them. I strongly suggesting purchasing the book. And just by luck, P runs a distro, A Boulder on the Tracks () where you can buy this book as well as his first book , which delves into the history of the Northeast around the time of the American War for Independence, detailing “Native self-defense and African defiance to Caribbean pirates and mutinous servants.” On the website, you’ll see a great collection of books all sold on a sliding scale. To get God, Artificial Intelligence, and Me, you can email . In the conversation, we touch on some of themes I just mentioned, but also get into other discussions about guilt and generations and possibilities of militancy. I won’t go too deep into it now, it’s a long enough conversation and yet we didn’t hit everything we planned! I think we’ll do another episode on the idea of the spectacle, coming soon. Here’s a little background on P: P. has lived in the midwest for most of his life. He was raised catholic and has spent many years trying to unpack that. In his latest book P tries to relate the estrangement caused by catholicism to the alienation baked into consumerism, science, and artificial intelligence. P. has been an anarchist since the start of the second Iraq War. He is currently a high school teacher struggling to subvert compulsory education as much as he can. Before we get into the conversation, I’ll do my usual rundown of ways you can support this project. I have been told I need to do a bit more upfront promo, so if you like this podcast, please rate it and follow it on the different apps where you listen to it. That does help boost the potential audience. Also, tell your friends too! I love hearing from people about their thoughts—but as always any questions you might want us to tackle on the show. You can leave us a message at (917) 426-6548 or using the form . Or find me on Instagram @thebreakuptheory and DM me. If you want to access more of my work, as well as the work of the wonderful carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil, you can sign up for our newsletter at . If you subscribe, you will also get access to all of our articles, our discord server where we have discussion, movie nights, writing workshops, and book clubs, and more. Our podcasts, advice column, and zine and sticker library are always free. I am proud of the thing that we are building together, creating a support system for the lonely and often impoverished work of writing—and also finding new ways to engage with new people committed to collective thinking and writing. If you want to reach any of us there, you can email The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, which pulls together a wide variety of shows taking an anarchist perspective on culture, politics, actions, and more. Check them out at You have been listening to The Breakup Theory. Song excerpt credits - The opening few bars from: Paul McCartney and Wings - "Jet" The Who - "Won't Get Fooled Again" Pink Floyd - "Brain Damage" /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/39782755

Episode 29 - Living with Trans Despair with Simon(e) van Saarloos 01/03/2026

Episode 29 - Living with Trans Despair with Simon(e) van Saarloos Today I am presenting a talk that Simon(e) van Saarloos and I did, kind of as a followup to our last talk together at the NYC Art Bookfair, called “Living with Trans Despair.” I’m going to give you the origin and details of the event before I present the edited recording of the event itself., so this is a bit of a long introduction. The idea to make a sequel came in the initial planning of our first talk about Simon’s book, , as we discovered we were both in the process of writing books dealing with despair. The circumstances of the event were particularly special: a friend of ours and amazing artist, Phoebus Osborne, had a show up at the gallery , a four channel video installation called . Phoebus welcomed our talk into part of the series of events he was holding surrounding this exhibition. But to make the talk even more special, we framed it with poetry readings from two beautiful poets, Sahar Khraibani and Rebecca Teich , whose contributions provided a perfect bookend for our talk, which was also surrounded by the intensely beautiful environment created by Phoebus’s installation. To give a better sense of this solo work, I will provide a little description from Phoebus: The exhibition is comprised of an immersive multi-channel video installation that explores underground, interior environments as sites of resistance, intimacy, and imagination. Weaving together footage of limestone caves, cemeteries, bathroom DJ sets, queer beaches, and domestic spaces, the work creates a sensorial field. Within the gallery, sound reverberates and screens and projectors glow, creating a space for reverie for the viewer. The installation insists on interiority—not as a form of withdrawal, but as a radiant space of gathering and potential. The text we wrote to open the talk was this: The liberal bumper sticker reads “If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.” We could equally substitute despair for outrage. Things only seem to get worse, especially for trans people, pregnant people, undocumented people, poor people, racialized people, the list goes on. Whereas outrage is supposed to spur you to canvas and vote, despair is seen as an obstacle to the traditional possibilities of transformation. Taking instead a radical approach to despair, writers Simon(e) van Saarloos and Shuli Branson are working on respective projects that integrate queer nihilism with the openness of transition, delinking hope and change to operate in the shadows of a progressive rainbow that demands assimilation, rationality, and maturity. This discussion will engage the meeting point between Simon(e)’s forthcoming book Trans Despair (AK Press) and Shuli’s Antidote to Despair (Pluto Press) through a look at the creative counterworlds of trans life. Simon and I have found that we have very generative collaborations and conversation, so I hope you find this talk engaging too. It goes into many different places, following the train of our thoughts bouncing off one another. Of course, it doesn’t have a resolution, but opens on to more questions. I have included our responses to audience questions at the end of the talk, but left out the questions themselves to maintain privacy. Before giving you the talk, I want to provide a little more background on all of the people collaborating: You already know me of course, so I’ll skip that. (b. 1984) is an artist based in Queens, NY. His practice engages material traces of nonlinear relationships through a matrix of film, sculpture, performance, drawing, writing, and sound. Extending from his lived experience with chronic pain, he contemplates the accelerating illnesses of the planet at large and considers how modes of relationship can empower resilience and enable repair. His works have been presented within the US and Europe, including commissioned works at Transmediale Berlin, La Caldera Barcelona, SFMoMA, Oakland Museum of California, Lenfest Center for the Arts, and The Poetry Project. is the author of Against Ageism. A Queer Manifesto (2023); Take ‘Em Down. Scattered Monuments and Queer Forgetting (2021) and Playing Monogamy (2019) as well as several books in Dutch. Their writing has appeared in co-edited volumes and academic journals and they also write fiction and theater. They are currently writing a new book for AK Press, titled Trans Despair: Staying Unrelated and Insecure. Van Saarloos also works as an independent curator of public programming and artistic collaborations. is a writer and artist whose work has been presented with Montez Press, The Brooklyn Rail, the Poetry Foundation, and the Poetry Project among others. Sahar is a recipient of the Creative Capital / Arts Writers Grant, a fellowship at The Poetry Project, a MacDowell Fellowship, a 2024 residency at Mass MoCA, and is an alumni of the Whitney Independent Study Program. Sahar teaches at Pratt Institute and is the author of Anatomy of A Refusal (1080PRESS, 2025) and ONE THOUSAND GHOSTS IN THIS FEAST (Wendy's Subway, 2025). is a writer, curator, and PhD student in English at the CUNY Graduate Center. Teich is the recipient of the 2023 Graduate Student Paper Award from the CLAGS and is a 2023 and 2024 archival research fellow through the Lost & Found Archival Research Grant. Teich's writing has been featured in The Kitchen Magazine; Peach Magazine's Invitation to Form: Epic Mix; BOMB Magazine, The LA Review of Books, The Poetry Project Newsletter, and elsewhere. Teich’s first chapbook, Caffeine Chronicles (2021), was published by Portable Press @ YoYo Labs and their collaborative pamphlet, "Shared Discernments," co-written with Kimberly Alidio, was published by 1080 Press in 2025. If you want to access more of my work, as well as the work of the wonderful carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil, you can sign up for our newsletter at . If you subscribe, you will also get access to all of our articles, our discord server where we have discussion, movie nights, writing workshops, and book clubs, and more. Our podcasts, advice column, and zine and sticker library are always free. I am proud of the thing that we are building together, creating a support system for the lonely and often impoverished work of writing—and also finding new ways to engage with new people committed to collective thinking and writing. If you are interested, I will be leading a book club meeting to discuss Avgi Saketopoulou and Ann Pellegrini’s on Wednesday January 14 at 5pm eastern. You are invited to subscribe and join, regardless of your reading of the book. The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, which pulls together a wide variety of shows taking an anarchist perspective on culture, politics, actions, and more. Check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/39601135

Episode 28 - Jaime Grant on What We Can Do Intimately With Each Other 11/07/2025

Episode 28 - Jaime Grant on What We Can Do Intimately With Each Other In this episode, Caroline and I talk to the wonderful Dr. Jaime M. Grant, Sex and Intimacy Coach, Researcher, Writer, and longtime Activist. She has recently published , after her previous contribution to the series, . (Yes, it’s that series!) Jaime has also written a book and been leading a workshop for many years around the world on mapping your desire, helping people get in touch with what they actually like and want and perhaps have not been able to access. Jaime has been involved in queer and racial justice movements for decades, as well as doing survivor support, research on trans discrimination and more. As you will hear, she is a passionate advocate and coach whose work really revolves around inspiring forms of connection through intimacy, relationship, and self-empowerment. Talking with Jaime about kink, poly, and sex was extremely helpful to me for putting into perspective the role of queer sex and intimacy within struggle for liberation, autonomy, and the end of empire. I am always interested in the ways that our relationships reproduce the world around us, but I have sometimes wondered if sex as revolutionary is just a dream. (Perhaps I’ve taught too much Foucault). Our world is structured such that a process of self-discovery involves interrogating your sexuality and gender, so often getting caught up in the traps of identity that end up separating us or becoming modes of punishment. And even though we are told we have unique identities, we are still doing this work under social duress and shame, regardless of more expansive and visible queer communities, more attention to different ways of engaging in sex and relationship, and years of work that people like Jaime have done to support people in these discoveries. Polyamory plays a specific role within anarchist and anti-authoritarian perspectives as giving us ways to relate non-hierarchically, but as with queer love in general, can get caught up in should and should nots, or the miasma of endless processing. Jaime brought a refreshing perspective, that really should be the first way we access these things. Her approach to creating space to discuss issues around sex and intimacy and to be frank about desire is supportive in a way that makes the possibility of naming the hidden and dark parts of you seem much easier. Listening to her wisdom and experience kind of gave me this feeling that things could actually be simpler, that this wisdom could be basic, and that we often make things too complicated. (Maybe that’s just me). I am a theory girl always getting tangled up, so I was also grateful that Caroline brought her professional and personal experience into conversation with Jaime to help contextualize the challenges that people face when trying to create new supportive relationships with poly or kink dynamics. I was genuinely moved by this conversation, not just because of Jaime’s kindness and passion, but by how clearly she was able to show the power of connection and relationship in changing the world—something I’m always thinking about but I can get pessimistic too. I hope you too find it inspiring to hear her practical perspective that helps simplify ways to open up or lives and even be kind to ourselves and the ones we love. Jaime is accessible in many ways: You can find her at , on instagram @jaimemgrant, on facebook J'aime Grant, or email jaimemgrant@gmail.com Her books are out, and she is available for coaching! If you want to access more of my work, as well as the work of the wonderful carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil, you can sign up for our newsletter at . If you subscribe, you will also get access to all of our articles, our discord server where we have discussion, movie nights, writing workshops, and book clubs, and more. Our podcasts, advice column, and zine and sticker library are always free. I am proud of the thing that we are building together, creating a support system for the lonely and often impoverished work of writing—and also finding new ways to engage with new people committed to collective thinking and writing. If you are interested, I will be leading a book club meeting on Emma Heaney’s collection, on November 19 at 5pm eastern. You are invited to subscribe and join! The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, which pulls together a wide variety of shows taking an anarchist perspective on culture, politics, actions, and more. Check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/38950005

Episode 27 - A Conversation with Simon(e) van Saarloos: Disintegrating Linear Timelines -- NY Art Bookfair 10/20/2025

Episode 27 - A Conversation with Simon(e) van Saarloos: Disintegrating Linear Timelines -- NY Art Bookfair CW: This discussion mentions childhood sexual abuse When Simon(e) van Saarloos invited me to be in conversation with them at the surrounding their recently published , I was honored and excited. We had already been discussing recording a conversation for the Breakup Theory, so it was serendipitous that this event came along. I love doing the podcast, but it’s really exciting for me to do public talks and get to engage directly with people. Simon and I met before the event and we found that we were able to really push each other’s thinking into interesting and exciting places, so we anticipated a good conversation. It also turned out that we are both working on books about despair—theirs is the upcoming Trans Despair through . Mine will be out late next year . . . shhhh, it’s a secret. If you haven’t yet had a chance to read Against Ageism, I’ll give a brief set up. Simon writes in a hybrid personal, theoretical, and sometimes academic style (i.e. citations of academic work). This style really invites you in to their deep consideration of embodied existence, age, sex, and gender. The book is very provocative in many ways, which I’ll allow you to hear about in our conversation. It turns out age is a very rich entry point into thinking about a whole tangle of things we take for granted about how we live. Of particular interest for me was the approach to different ways of thinking about time, crip time, linear time, racialized time, queer time all opposed to the cishetero narratives of growing up. I have typically taken an approach to thinking about age from a perspective of youth and youth liberation, specifically addressing the situation of trans kids. In this book, Simon focuses a bit more on the so-called older ages, perception, and relationship—and also death and grief. All of these issues Simon intimately connects to sexuality and desire and the experience of transness and queerness they have had (and that other people might share and understand). This episode comes directly from a recorded conversation at in Queens, NY, so the format is different than normal episodes. I am grateful for MoMA PS 1 and (who hosted the bookfair) making this recording and sharing it with me. Simon and I found this conversation so generative that we are planning another—so if you like this one, look forward to another on a different timeline. Besides sharing this podcast and rating/following it, if you want to access more of my work as well as the work of the wonderful carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil, you can find us at CAW where you can sign up for our newsletter at . If you subscribe, you will also get access to all of our articles, our discord server where we have discussion, movie nights, writing workshops, and book clubs, and more. Our podcasts, advice column, and zine and sticker library are always free. The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, which pulls together a wide variety of shows taking an anarchist perspective on culture, politics, actions, and more. Check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/38638920

Episode 26 - Agony Letter: The Thing That Cracks Us Open 10/04/2025

Episode 26 - Agony Letter: The Thing That Cracks Us Open CW: brief mention of suicidal ideation Oh my god, we are so back! As with everyone, this has been a year of hell, or lead paint, or whatever, and I have only been able to release a few episodes. But let me tell you, I am sitting on a few waiting to be edited and have plans for more, getting back into a regular production. For this episode, I invited the beautiful Dean Spade to respond to a listener letter with me. He has started up a in the wake of his book, with the same name , where has been discussing relationships and giving advice about how we can fight and love together better. This letter came from someone who had a terrible experience with an accountability process and over the years this has caused them to become disenchanted with the ideas of transformative justice, prefigurative politics, community and life . . . It has gotten really bad for them. As Dean has many years of experience with TJ and accountability process, working with different groups in figuring out how to address conflicts, dealing with conflicts in his own groups, I thought that he would be a perfect person to think this through with. We aren’t able to solve the letter writer’s problem of course, but we explore all the ways that it becomes difficult to deal with conflict, to lose faith in accountability and any kind of movement work, and how inability to figure out relationship issues derail us. We discuss the emotional spaces that all of these issues take us into, the trauma and pain we bring into each room, and the ways we get stuck perceiving others’ perceptions of us. I personally share a kind of pessimism on accountability with the letter writer (as you may know if you’ve read some of my work), while Dean offers a more capacious understanding: that transformative justice describes any situation where we don’t involve cops, defer to any authority, and no one gets arrested. It isn’t based on the success so much as the attempts to address conflicts. In this way, many of the problems come from high expectations, lack in skills in conflict or mediation, and lingering liberal models. Some of the advice we do offer pertains more to how someone can try to find healing in themselves and do a process, including grieving, even when people are disappointing them, even alone. As always, I come down to letting people go, letting them and yourself off the hook, and trying to find the simplest soothing such as a hand on your chest. I hope that the writer takes something from this. Their letter is already very insightful about the issue, and so that seems to me to be a step, not towards a reenchantment, but perhaps something else. Just to give another content warning, there is brief mention of suicidal ideation and suicide in the letter. If you want to support me and the making of this podcast, please go over to , my writer-worker collective CAW with carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil. We offer a variety of things, some for paid subscription and some freely available. Podcasts, advice columns, stickers, zines and a regular roundup of our work comes with a free subscription. If you pay $5, you have access to all of our content, including a discord where we offer writing workshops, movie nights, and book clubs. The Breakup Theory is part of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, you can check all of the offerings out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/38465195

Episode 25 - Practices that Do the Unchoosing with Nat Raha and Mijke van der Drift 07/18/2025

Episode 25 - Practices that Do the Unchoosing with Nat Raha and Mijke van der Drift In this episode, I speak with two beautiful trans writers, artists, thinkers, Nat Raha and Mijke van der Drift. They recently published with Pluto Books. Their book describes an expansive ethics of collectivity, care, and complicity from the perspective of trans femme knowledge and experience. Nat and Mijke developed the book over the last number of years through different iterations as a zine and a conference, but also as an offering from many years of organizing, not just for trans liberation, but for all people. In reading the book, I found, you take on a slight altering in language as they inflect words we have used and think we know with a different tone, which creates a web of understanding that helps us find our position in the world. One throughline that I found incredibly important was their thinking of complicity, as this attends to the leftist piety of purity, as well as the guilt of enforced participation in the state and capital. For them complicity just means, as Mijke says in our conversation, we start from “what you do with your body in this world.” From this place, we can then figure out the dynamics of making collectives. It’s a way to address our entanglements with power from all the different positions of vulnerability with an aim of untangling hierarchical power for everyone. But beyond complicity, trans shows us we don’t have to remain stuck in a world or a body not of our choosing. They tell us that trans “does the unchosing,” and, as Nat says, femme “opens up worlds.” We have a really in depth conversations—Nat and Mijke were very generous with their time. We weave together concepts and analysis from their book with Nat and Mijke’s own personal histories of involvement in movements and community. I highly recommend reading Trans Femme Futures—they find a beautiful way of articulating what transness and femmeness can teach us about how to live. You can find it at Pluto Books, or wherever else you get your reading materials. If you want to access more of my work, as well as the work of the wonderful carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil, you can sign up for our newsletter at . If you subscribe, you will also get access to all of our articles, our discord server where we have discussion, movie nights, writing workshops, and book clubs, and more. Our podcasts, advice column, and zine and sticker library are always free. CAW has just put out an invitation for people to contribute to a piece we are constructing around the question, “How Do You Love, How Do We Live.” As we write on the website, the aim of our invitation is to deepen collective mutuality and connections because we know that when we feel more connected and a sense of belonging; our capacities increase, propelling us to show up and do and be more in the now, and into the future. People can either record an audio file of up to one minute, using the Breakup Theory hotline: (917) 426-6548. Or email a text up to 200 words to (please just add How Do You Love, How Do We Live into the subject line). You can remained anonymous or include your name. We want all approaches and genres, so don’t shy of getting freaky if you want. For more information, you can see our Instagram post, or look at the website! The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, which pulls together a wide variety of shows taking an anarchist perspective on culture, politics, actions, and more. Check them out at If you like this show, please rate and follow us, and share with your friends who need help ending things! /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/37457050

Episode 24 - Putting Ghosts in Their Graves (another letter with Caroline) 06/18/2025

Episode 24 - Putting Ghosts in Their Graves (another letter with Caroline) In this episode, Caroline and I respond to a letter from a listener who is trying to navigate a tricky relationship. It is a relationship with a lot of fuzziness, moving from romantic and sexual to friends. There are also attempts at real conversation, though they aren’t always clear, producing a difficult dynamic to understand and find bearings. They know they need to end it—or at least take space from it—but they also are tied into the queer anarchist community in a small town that centers around this person’s house. As they say, they are trying to put the ghost back in its grave, because all of their attempts at clarity and space get lost in confusing communication and signals. This letter really brings up dynamics that are probably familiar to you all: the relationship where one person chases and the other person distances (then flips), the feeling that the end of the relationship will damage your relationships with other people, and of course deep personal connection and history that is hard to let go of, even if it is clearly part of the past. The listener seems to know what they want (they work it out in the letter pretty clearly), but all of these ties and ghosts keep them bound. Caroline and I try to discuss the dynamics from many angles, perhaps not coming to a simple solution, but hopefully giving a helpful perspective for all of our listeners who may be caught in similar situations. I do want to note that when I was listening back to the conversation, there are points where I am not sure I gave enough space to relationality. In other words, I give credence to many of those relationship truisms about centering yourself in a breakup, but feeling yourself can’t really be done without others. You can choose whom to share yourself with, but we are made up of all of these relationships and depend upon them to see and understand ourselves. To check out more of my work head over to , the writer-worker collective I started with carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil. You can subscribe for free to get access to our newsletter, podcasts, advice column, and zine/sticker library. If you pay for a membership, you get access to all of our projects, including writing workshops, book clubs, movie nights, and a thriving Discord community. The Breakup Theory is a member of the of anarchist podcasts. Check out Channel Zero for more shows including interviews, analysis, news, reportbacks, stories, and more. /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/37060815

Episode 23 - Dean Spade on How We Act When Things Get Really Hard 05/15/2025

Episode 23 - Dean Spade on How We Act When Things Get Really Hard Today I’m sharing a conversation I had with one of my favorites, Dean Spade, about his recent book out with Algonquin Books. Dean has been an inspiration for a long time with his commitments to abolition, anti-Zionism, and trans liberation, among other things. His previous book, , came at a perfect moment when people were getting together in response to COVID-19 and the George Floyd Uprising. This new book has also appeared right when we need it, when we feel worn down and scared, and need to find better ways to connect with each other. His thinking here lines up very closely with the things that concern me, namely thinking beyond politics and anarchism as relationships, building bottom up. Dean starts from the idea that all of our movements and struggle are based on our relationships, and if we can’t get those right, how can we expect to work together to end this world and build another. Love in a Fucked Up World finally gives us a self-help book for queer anarchists: it contains so much insight matched with practical suggestions to help guide you through your own stories and the ones you project on others that get in the way of real connection. It really moved me in moments and gelled certain ways to understand myself in relation to others. Our conversation goes into nitty gritty relationship issues and zooms out to the ways these affect our collective work. We talk about how anarchists and leftists deprioritize and avoid doing this internal and interpersonal work, only to find that all of the problems appear in every place you go. It is so important to talk explicitly about our social needs and how our collective work fits into them. We can’t separate politics and love. Meetings are social spaces and our search for political direction is completely enmeshed in our search for intimate connection. But I’ll let Dean tell you more about this—he wrote the book on it. First, I want to announce the official launch of , the writer worker collective that I belong to along with carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil. It is a subscriber based platform where we will share all of our projects, a discord server, and offerings like writing workshops, book clubs, movie nights, as well as a zine and sticker library. If you sign up for free you get access to our weekly newsletter, our advice column, our podcasts, and the zines and stickers. If you subscribe to a paid membership, you have full access to everything. We have various subscription tiers, but everyone who subscribes has the same access. Please go over to to check out what we are doing there, and join if you want! The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts, which brings together important shows with news, analysis, reportbacks, and culture. Check it out at (Note: I incorrectly say thechannelzeronetwork.com. There is no THE in the URL!) /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/36577905

Episode 22 - In Memoriam Joshua Clover, a Rerelease from The Final Straw Radio 2021 05/05/2025

Episode 22 - In Memoriam Joshua Clover, a Rerelease from The Final Straw Radio 2021 Today I’m re-releasing a conversation I recorded for the Final Straw Radio with Joshua Clover in 2021. Our conversation focuses around his 2016 book Riot. Strike. Riot, in part within the context of the George Floyd rebellion. I wanted to present this conversation in memoriam of Joshua, who we learned last week had died. As many of the testimonials you can find online, Joshua was a great friend and comrade to a wide range of people. He is remembered not just as a poet and an academic thinker, but also as someone ready to throw down in the streets. I didn’t know him really beyond his work and this conversation, but I appreciated the depth of his thinking and his willingness to go into it with me. I am rereleasing this episode in its entirety as it was originally released by The Final Straw Radio. I wanted to do so in order to suggest anyone who has not listened to the show to check it out further. This is an essential long-running anarchist podcast that presents conversations with people involved in many different struggles, a necessary tool for us to figure out how to form international solidarities. It also engages with anarchist writing and culture. It’s a unique wide-ranging breadth of subjects. They gave me a chance to dig into wideranging and complex conversations with writers and people on the ground.I highly recommend checking them out, and digging into their past episodes. They also produce transcript zines of many of their conversations. You can find them on all the podcasting platforms or at thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.com Both the Final Straw and the Breakup theory are part of the anarchist network of podcasts Channel Zero. This is another resource for so much great anarchist work. To find more conversations like these, plus totally different approaches, go to channelzeronetwork.com I’ve been away for awhile, but I have new shows to release, and plan to start posting again regularly. As of May 12, I will be moving all of my writing to my new collaborative project CAW, an online journal of autonomous writing. This is a writers collective formed by me, carla joy bergman, Dani Burlison, and Vicky Osterweil. It will be a subscription based service to help support us in devoting more time to our work. In addition to articles, essays, and interviews, we have an advice column and a free library of zines and stickers. Check us out and subscribe at cawshinythings.com. /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/36439275

Episode 21 - Breaking Up With Your Therapist w/ Shuli and Caroline 03/24/2025

Episode 21 - Breaking Up With Your Therapist w/ Shuli and Caroline In today’s episode, Caroline and I respond to a listener’s letter about breaking up with their psychoanalyst after five years. Right now, there is such an emphasis on therapy as a means to address trauma, as well as to adjust to the terror of the current conditions in the world. There is also a whole industry of self-help that coincides with shaming of people by individualizing their faults and failures. We may all need therapy to a certain extent—but when do we end it? Breaking up with a therapist is a kind of practice breakup: it’s a controlled environment where you can exercise your own determination and decision and face the consequences practically and emotionally. As the listener details in their letter, ending things comes with a large dose of ambivalence, and we tend to reason our way through it with pros and cons, or assigning blame and guilt. However, as the breakup theory tries to suggest, we can breakup for no other reason than it is what we feel is right in the moment. Caroline and I have a far reaching discussion about all of these ideas and many others, ultimately as a way to support the listener in their decision and their already well thought out process of marking this ending. But this conversation should be helpful to any listener, in or out of therapy, as another approach to encountering our feelings about the end and our own attempts at power and control. If you haven’t already, please go over to cawshinythings.com and sign up to read the works that Vicky, me, and the amazing carla joy bergman and dani burlison are sharing there. Things have been incredibly difficult for me (and everyone), but I am coming back to regular recording and writing, so stay tuned. My column there is called “she’s not there.” But all of us are posting our articles, essays, writing prompts, and recordings—there is plenty for you to sink your teeth into. And I will be also offering other projects along with my collaborators. The online journal is currently open to subscribers but will pivot soon to a paid subscription service. Check it out and help spread the word. As always, if you want to submit a question, scenario, or problem for us to discuss from an anarchist/autonomous and queer perspective of ending things, you can write us at or call us at (917) 526-6548. We love to hear from you! And if you like this podcast, please share with your friends, rate us, and follow us where it is you receive pods. The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. CZN will help you discover a library of amazing audio projects, so check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/35842855

Episode 20 - What Happens After the End of the Constitutional Republic? 03/09/2025

Episode 20 - What Happens After the End of the Constitutional Republic? On today’s episode, I have a conversation with Vicky Osterweil, a fellow member of our new writing collective, CAW, and the author of the indispensable history and provocation, In Defense of Looting, and a forthcoming book on intellectual property and Disney, called The Extended Universe. We decided to have this conversation in the opening month of the Trump administration to game out some possible scenarios as we observe the administration demolishing the constitutional and administrative state, against all the establishment assurances the the institutions can withstand any attack. Though our conversation does engage the fear and threat of the situation, we also discuss openings for us to take bold action that uses this moment of (bad) revolution to expand our collective power. Vicky is one of my favorite people to talk with. She has a brilliant analytical mind, an incredible story of political history and knowledge, and an inspiring way to read the devastating moments against a belief in the necessity to act. In fact, Vicky emphasizes the potential timeline of power consolidation by these fascist forces and the urgency for us to prepare ourselves for managing our lives and mounting attack. This was recorded at the end of February, so of course there have been new terrible political developments, but the analysis itself still stands as a way for us to assess the possibilities. If you haven’t already, please go over to and sign up to read the works that Vicky, me, and the amazing carla joy bergman and dani burlison are sharing there. Things have been incredibly difficult for me (and everyone), but I am coming back to regular recording and writing, so stay tuned. My column there is called “she’s not there.” But all of us are posting our articles, essays, writing prompts, and recordings—there is plenty for you to sink your teeth into. And I will be also offering other projects along with my collaborators. The online journal is currently open to subscribers but will pivot soon to a subscription service with a pay what you want option. Check it out and help spread the word. As always, if you want to submit a question, scenario, or problem for us to discuss from an anarchist/autonomous and queer perspective of ending things, you can write us at or call us at (917) 526-6548. We have a couple agony letter episodes coming up, and we love to hear from you. If you like this podcast, please share with your friends, rate us, and follow us where it is you receive pods. The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. CZN will help you discover a library of amazing audio projects, so check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/35595510

Episode 19 - Thinking Feeling Doing with Conner Habib 11/15/2024

Episode 19 - Thinking Feeling Doing with Conner Habib Hello everyone! I have been away longer than usual between episodes due to circumstances, and I appreciate you all coming back to listen. As a kind of compensation, this is a long one today—I got to talk to one of my favorite people to get into it with, Conner Habib. We had recorded a along with Dean Spade in the approach to the election in order to reorient people’s thoughts and attention towards politics beyond the state—and so we decided to reconvene, the two of us, post-election, to discuss the relationship of feeling to thinking and doing. There was of course an intensity of feeling after the election, with many claims about how people should respond and act. Instead of going that route, Conner and I try to explore ways of not giving up our feelings and power to the spectacle of politics and everything it demands from us. In doing this, we aim to expand the possibilities of action, and to reconceive our relationship to the political in a way that develops a new language or a new grammar that no long constrains us. Along the way, we talk about nottaking materialism as the only basis for politics, which gets us into both religious forms of power and the consideration of a spiritual relationship to the self and the world. As I say at the end, Conner’s podcast, Against Everyone /w Conner Habib, is an incredible resource that dives into many of these ideas through discussion and thinking. Conner references a recent series of episodes he published as a guide to engaging in a spiritual life. That might be a great place to start if you have not already listened to his podcast. He also wrote the intense novel, Hawk Mountain, which I also highly recommend. Subscribe to Conner’s (), and find Hawk Mountain . Remember, as always, we have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! Our letters episodes are a recurring feature on the show, and we find that our writers appreciate the ways we help think of these situations, so keep writing us! If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my . If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. CZN brings together a slew of amazing audio projects, so check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/33943982

Episode 18 - Decolonization, Whiteness, and the End of Empire 10/15/2024

Episode 18 - Decolonization, Whiteness, and the End of Empire In today’s episode, River and I return to a conversation about Gaza, focusing on the discourse surrounding it, the function of antisemitism in the colonial creation of Israel, the state of resistance and the state of Israel’s genocide, as well as decolonization and the way whiteness and identification with institutions hampers leftist’s solidarity with decolonial movements. Perhaps a fitting epigraph for this episode would be a line from Aimé Césaire that River quotes in our conversation: “Europe is indefensible.” The end of Israel is not enough, we need the end of Europe and the end of the United States. One facet of our discussion is trying to get at the way we can find true solidarity with and inspiration from the resistance in Palestine. How do we bring the decolonial force from the colony to the heart of empire? In thinking about this, we touch on what stops people from having solidarity, or what trips up white leftists in their conceptions of decolonization. We also talk a bit about knowledge production in the academy and writing and thinking during this endless series of horrors surrounding us and escalating every day. But don’t worry, it’s not just doom and gloom: we find hope in the ways that Palestinians and others are teaching us life independent from the state. Remember, as always, we have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! Our letters episodes are a recurring feature on the show, and we find that our writers appreciate the ways we help think of these situations, so keep writing us! If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my patreon patreon.com/thebreakuptheory. If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. CZN brings together a slew of amazing audio projects, so check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/33466722

Episode 17 - You Are Living in a Haunted House (Letters on Ghosts) 09/25/2024

Episode 17 - You Are Living in a Haunted House (Letters on Ghosts) CW - the last part of this episode contains mention and some details around sexual assault We’re back with another entry in our letters episodes! In this conversation, Caroline and I discuss three different dilemmas presented to us by listeners. In the first we address the problems that come with queer longing and the difficulty of living single amidst the horrors of the world and social arrangements for couples. The second letter raises issues of ethics in relation to friendships: do you break up with a friend whose job you have a moral objection to? Are you obligated to tell them? Remember, as the endless merch says, all cops are bastards! And finally, the third letter comes from a haunted house, where the writer is battling ghosts and a very specific and terrible situation with an abusive ex, while still harboring an expansive dream of liberation for all. I want to give a content warning here, the letter discusses sexual assault, with some upsetting details, so if you are not up for that, turn the episode off after the second letter. I really love the chance to discuss your issues, so I am very grateful for everyone who sends them in. I hope that our conversations prove helpful to you, as we look at things from multiple angles: these issues are so often, despite particular details, shared experiences and common struggles. And like with everything else, there are not many places to untangle the conjunction of relationships and our desires for liberation and anarchy, to step out of self-help into collective struggle. We have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my patreon . If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. CZN brings together a slew of amazing audio projects, so check them out at /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/33202862

Episode 16 – Solomon Brager on Ethical Ambivalence, Exceptionalism, and Being Jewishly Gloomy 09/07/2024

Episode 16 – Solomon Brager on Ethical Ambivalence, Exceptionalism, and Being Jewishly Gloomy On today’s episode, I got a chance to talk with Solomon Brager, the artist and author of the recently published graphic memoir, . Solomon Brager is a cartoonist and writer living in Brooklyn, New York. They are a 2023-2025 Jerome Hill Artists Fellow, a member of the Pinko magazine editorial collective and the director of community engagement at Jewish Currents magazine. Heavyweight deals with Solomon’s own search through the archives to learn the story of their German Jewish family fleeing the Nazis and escaping the Holocaust, specifically through Solomon’s elective affinity for a great grandfather, Erich, who was a boxer (and punched Nazis). The book is careful to tell the story of the Holocaust within a larger context of European colonial genocide, so that we see the eventual targeting of Jews, Roma, Sinti, and others as a continuation of German policies in Africa, for example. In this light, as Sol and I discuss, we can also view the eventual statehood of Israel as a culmination of this history of colonialism and violence. Though the book’s focus isn’t on Israel, we do spend time in this conversation analyzing the dynamics of Zionism in relation to the stories and teaching of the Holocaust to American Jews, and the idea of Jewish exceptionalism. One of the things I loved, and that we discuss also, is the way Sol represents in the book their own ambivalence about the this history, both in terms of family relations and scholarly practice, an ambivalence that Sol discusses as an ethical relationship to the past, an openness to being wrong. In this light, I also love the way this book depicts a kind of trans choosing of history and ancestors, as Sol finds a link to a Jewish masculinity in their great-grandfather: this is another ethical ambivalence, one that I think shows us we can tell stories of the past that don’t determine our future as inevitable, while still honoring the complexities of the dead. I highly recommend this book, it is honest, vulnerable, and thoughtful. You can find Solomon Brager at , or on Instagram @jbbrager. I also am linking a comic that Sol did for Jewish Currents debunking claims to Jewish indigeneity, they mention it in our talk, and it’s a text I have also called on in my own writing. I also recommend checking out Pinko and Jewish Currents. As always, We have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my patreon patreon.com/thebreakuptheory. If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! The Breakup Theory is a member of the of anarchist podcasts. Check out this link to find many other important and fun projects, like my buddies, T /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/32953732

Episode 15 - There Will Be Sex On the Barricades: After Consent with Ariel Ajeno 08/24/2024

Episode 15 - There Will Be Sex On the Barricades: After Consent with Ariel Ajeno On today’s episode, I talk with Ariel Ajeno, who recently published an essay in the latest issue of , called : What is the role of consent in a revolution? Ariel Ajeno is a writer, dancer, and independent scholar based in Chicago, IL. The beautiful essay mixes personal experience with theoretical and practical analysis of the benefits and limits of consent and how that relates to the work of transforming the world beyond the principles of oppression that contain us now. Our conversation digs down into some nitty gritty questions about sexual consent, its difference from bodily autonomy, its parallels with revolutionary or resistant actions and organizing, and prefigurative aspects of how we might relate to one another, including experiences with cruising. As Ariel says towards the end of the conversation, There is going to be sex at the barricades, there is going to be sex at the encampment. So we should be honest about how we want to deal with the overlapping of revolutionary and sexual desires. I think that desire or pleasure is often left out of the overly serious conversation of destroying this world and forming other ways of relating, both as a legacy of masculinist authoritarian Marxist party organizations, and in reaction to the failures of gay liberation and radical feminism. But we can’t just dismiss the ways that these earlier militants engaged with these questions, nor the obstacles they faced and created. Having sex at the barricades means we need to be able to step in to difficult, complicated, messy relations that we can’t control or predict—in other words, an anarchist vision of action and change. Assessing the end of the radical gay movement, only a year after it started, Guy Hocquenghem said that they had radically changed the homosexual geography of Paris, where their general assemblies became giant cruising sites, with the police threat removed. And that in itself is not so bad. Thinking after consent really asks us to confront our desire for control and our willingness to experiment and fail, in other words how we must engage with our own power in between us. Ariel’s analysis in the essay and the conversation feels very thorough and generative, and I’m excited to share it. I will link to the essay and to the wonderful Pinko collective in the show notes. You can also find Ariel on Twitter and on Instagram As always, We have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my patreon patreon.com/thebreakuptheory. If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/32724872

Episode 14 - An Anarchism of Despair w/ Cindy Barukh Milstein at Another Carolina Anarchist Bookfair 08/09/2024

Episode 14 - An Anarchism of Despair w/ Cindy Barukh Milstein at Another Carolina Anarchist Bookfair On today’s episode, I am presenting the talk that Cindy Barukh Milstein and I did at the Another Carolina Anarchist Bookfair, which we called An Anarchism of Despair. When we planned to collaborate for the talk, we checked in on where we were mentally, emotionally, and politically in relation to the specific moment, filled with frustrations around anarchists’ involvement in movements, and the walls that we run into time and time again. We wanted to lean into the despair, to look it in the face, and to learn from it how we might consider acting from this position. This is the description we wrote for the talk: After October 7, the upswell of Palestinian solidarity has been heartening. But in the mechanics of the movement itself, we have found ourselves stuck in outdated forms of protest, marching in circles, making demands that will never be heeded. It feels like each iteration of rebellion meets its end at the blatancy of power: we are shown again that those who govern won’t help us. And all this while watching a genocide in real time, feeling desperate and powerless. We have the energy and will, but not the means. What can we do, then, with this spike of liberatory urges? This discussion will interrogate anarchism at this particular moment from the position of despair. Where does it meet its limits? Where does it show up to keep the energy going? Are we endlessly hitting our heads against the wall ? Or does our effort need to be seen in the long view? When faced with the impossibility of liberation and action, where do we go? We organize the talk around three central provocations, which essentially point to the ways our political actions, ideas, and horizons are circumscribed and therefore commit us to walking in circles. We then offer some thoughts about what anarchists actually do well and how we can use those practices to try to leave behind the useless forms of protest. I have included comments from two comrades who attended, Bonn and Jubilee V Debs, who made important contributions to the ideas. I keep coming down to anarchism as something that creates the possibility of action: it doesn’t guarantee the consequences, but drives us to the edge where we can do something, rather than nothing. We turn away when there are no guarantees, stuck in our miserable comforts in this world, whether through the tired tropes of resistance or individual consumption as solace for work. While the state looks at us as if we are already dead, we can instead find a way to act like we are living, in the bursting of a moment that cannot be contained. If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my patreon patreon.com/thebreakuptheory. If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! As always, We have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! The Breakup Theory is a member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. CZN brings together a slew of amazing audio projects, so check them out at And now for some despair . . . /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/32513302

Episode 13 - Can Anyone Get Over It? (More Agony Letters) 07/24/2024

Episode 12 - "We Could Probably Get Away With This" - on the New School Encampment 07/09/2024

Episode 12 - "We Could Probably Get Away With This" - on the New School Encampment In this episode, I talk with a student from the New School about the encampments there and what we can learn from the experience. Students at the New School set up their encampment in the lobby of the University Center in April a few days after the encampment was established at Columbia University and over 100 students were arrested. The New School student encampment last for over two weeks and eventually took the Parsons Building across the street, before President Donna Shalala had the students arrested early one morning. A few days later, faculty at the New Schools set up another encampment at the University that also lasted a couple weeks and eventually took the Welcome Center, holding it a few days before disbanding on the promise of a vote on divestment (which has not been delivered). In this conversation, we talk about the way the university administration dealt with the encampment, using less brute force than many of the other schools, and how this altered the organization of the encampment. In going through the whole experience, we discuss how our groups start mirroring bureaucracies, the use of divestment as a goal, the changing experience of study of revolutionary texts in the context of an encampment as opposed to the classroom, and more. Ultimately, we don’t know where the energy that was invigorated by the encampments will turn up next in resistance to genocide and control. But it is important to look at our actions and name their consequences. If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my patreon . If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! As always, We have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/32066422

Episode 11 - Living with Ghosts 06/20/2024

Episode 10 - Aidan Khamis on the Indiana University Encampment and New Fronts Against Empire 06/06/2024

Episode 10 - Aidan Khamis on the Indiana University Encampment and New Fronts Against Empire On this episode Shuli talked to Aidan Khamis, a Palestinian student at Indiana University Bloomington, about the student encampment established on the campus in solidarity with Gaza (and still existent as of the recording of this episode). Aidan gives a rundown of the initial stages of setting the camp up, the waves of violent repression from the administration and police, as well as the positive experiences of worldbuilding, collective study, and solidarity they experienced. The conversation continues with a deep and wide-ranging discussion about the tactic of encampment, the parallel of police repression and the apartheid state in occupied Palestine, the left’s colonial reservations about resistance, the different fronts of decolonial struggle, and the possibilities of solidarity in the heart of empire. Aidan shares brilliant insights and makes really beautiful connections. This solidarity movement is now in a turning point as most encampments have been packed up or evicted and we move into summer, where life on campus slows down. There is much to learn from the experiences that students and faculty had together, and we don’t know yet how the seeds planted in these experiences will sprout in further forms of resistance to genocide, empire, capital, and the police state. Hopefully this conversation will help spark more fires! CW: mention of violence and sexual assault Aidan shared two forms of possible support: A GoFundMe for Aidan's close friends and family: A friend’s epoetry site that he’s using to help evacuate his family: Please share and send material support! If you like this show, please share with your friends and rate and follow us wherever you get podcasts. You can also support the project and my writing by subscribing to my patreon patreon.com/thebreakuptheory. If you have any extra cash, you can sign up for $5/month, though nothing there is paywalled. On my patreon, I regularly post both short and long written pieces, along with episodes, and other conversations I’m having. I am so grateful for all of you supporting me and this project! As always, We have an online submission form at and a phone line at ‪(917) 426-6548. Please write and call us, to share your break up stories, your questions about ending things, and your hopes for liberation! /episode/index/show/33c7f0df-dac0-43d2-9467-91639c1c3a5c/id/31632322