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Mitch Pearlstein, PHD Emeritus, 'Second Chance Hiring'/ Bloomsbury Publishing, NYC/ London 2025
12/04/2025
Mitch Pearlstein, PHD Emeritus, 'Second Chance Hiring'/ Bloomsbury Publishing, NYC/ London 2025
Second Chance Hiring: An Economic and Ethical Necessity Mitch Pearlstein, PH.D. in this interview, recorded Dec.1st, 2025, Mitch Pearlstein discusses the themes of his latest Book ,Second Chance Hiring: An Economic and Ethical Necessity, puiblished Nov. 13, 2025, Bloomsbury Pub. Mitch Pearlstein has a Doctorate in Education and is a Senior Fellow, Center of the American Experiment, a conservative think tank, located in Minnesota. saac Shainblum (00:02) Good afternoon, welcome to Voices from the Other Side. ⁓ This is Isaac and I have a very special guest today. am honored to mention that we have Mitch Pearlstein here. good afternoon Mitch, welcome to Voices from the Other Side. I'm especially fond of your style of darkness such as ⁓ Each of us is more than the worst mistake we have made. Could you elaborate on that a little bit, please? Yeah, I would like to say that the line is original to me. I read it someplace. I'd like to think I also gave the guy credit. We have all made mistakes. And some people, when they make a mistake, they wind up in prison. And other people, when they make a mistake, just about as serious and do not. In each instance, people are better than their worst moments. Okay. Thank you. That's Can you that better? Not to throw a lot of statistics at you this afternoon. ⁓ I'm sorry? I said sure. It's been consistently reported and again I'm sort of semi quoting from your book, your wonderful book, Second Chances. it cover to cover. More than 95 % of all people currently incarcerated nationwide will eventually be built. be released. With the US in need of more workers, ex-offenders are struggling to find good jobs after paying their debt to society. Why do believe this is so difficult for ex-offenders eager to work? ⁓ generalist ⁓ I've written a bunch of books but on family breakdown on education questions and I have only become involved with questions of second chance hiring in the last five six years or so once I joined the board of directors of a very good re-entry program in Minnesota the redemption project and why is difficult? People's fears the problems that people who have been in prison have and that they bring to a possible job, mental illness, lack of adequate literacy skills, math skills, mental health problems of all sorts. I don't think we acknowledge that well enough. And from the side of society employers, fear, fear of crime. fear if a company really wants to be of service and hire as many people as appropriate who have been in prison, they wonder quite frequently if they have the wherewithal, the resources, the services to help people coming out of prison who need help. So it is very difficult. My overall point where all this is concerned is that yes, it is indeed Usually very difficult for a person to come out of prison and get on with their lives in a good way It is possible. It is done every day. Yeah, it is very very difficult every day. Mm-hmm. Okay Thank you for that. Yeah, and a little not a correction but My I'm really come from a field of mental health behavioral health and I'm a peer support specialist And but I many years with this with a podcast here and I got really involved with Reentry and I actually have a friend of mine and incarcerated and she's in there for quite a while And I had been trying to keep in touch with her and send her goodies and things Anyways Thank you for that very interesting For the last 25 years you've written professionally as president of the Center of the American Experiment, a conservative think tank you founded in Minneapolis in 1990. You were also a speechwriter for C.Peter, I think it's McGraw, when he was president of the University of Minnesota as well as for Al Quay. He was governor. Yeah, governor. And you were kind of a more, would you say you're more of a journalist? You would say a generalist kind of. I call myself a generalist now. I've been a reporter though not for a terribly long period of time in upstate New York and Binghamton. I was an editorial writer for four years for the Pioneer Press in St. Paul. I describe my style of writing as academically informed journalism. So at root, ⁓ I like to view myself as a journalist, but I'm academically trained. I have a doctorate in education. ⁓ I like reading the kinds of things that people generally don't like reading. And I try to write conceptually. Which is a fancy way of saying I like writing about ideas as opposed to events let's say. Well I would envision, yeah sorry. No problem, that's it. I would envision that your books would be in universities and that sort, is that true academically? One would hope the best way of getting to them is through Amazon. He's sticking my name, Mitch Pearlstein, and about four of them will show up. They're in great supply at Amazon, and they're usually overpriced. If anybody is interested in ⁓ getting one or three of them, if they can get in touch with me, I can do it usually easier, cheaper than Amazon. But who knows where the books are? I hope they're in various... Yeah, fair enough. was going to ask you about Maybe a little later. ⁓ Thank you for reminding me about you know And I will kind of remind folks listeners to you on how they can also you run through bloom very Yeah, publisher. Yeah, this is my new publisher Which was going to be my regular publisher Roman and Littlefield a bloom Berry About a year or two ago purchased a good chunk of Roman Littlefield a major US publisher where Three of my previous books are found. Okay. So right in the middle of my writing, we changed publishers. Bloomsbury is recognized as a serious academic publisher among other things. I'm very pleased about that. They're in the United States obviously, but also in England. I don't understand. It was pretty fancy. like it. Yeah. Very good. Awesome. Yeah, I was pretty impressed too. ⁓ And your book, by the way, really spoke to me on many levels. Thank you. You're very nice to say that. ⁓ Presently, also, you are on the board of directors of the Redemption Project Reentry Program of the 20th City, is correct? Right. I'm intrigued. You better understand the connection to Prisoner Reentry, the Redemption Project and the idea for your book. Check Second Chances. ⁓ Second-Chance Hidering and economic and ethicalness. Yes, sorry. Yeah. Last time I'll correct you about anything. I have that down somewhere on the... So I know you explained it, but could you go into that a little more on the congruence with the connection to the Prisoner Reentry and how you wrote the book? That's what the Redemption Project does. Reentry... It started, I'd say about six, seven years ago now, by two friends. I had worked with that center, the American Experiment, one of whom was the chair who wound up in prison, federal prison for 14 months. came to believe that ⁓ the people there were better people, frankly, for the most part, than he thought they would be. And his name was Tim Owens. Dwight Constance and they decided after study to start a re-entry program called the Redemption Project. They had a conception of getting people in business to work directly with people who are in prison and then if everything worked well in those conversations, the ex-offenders when they came out, would have jobs with ⁓ those businesses. Well, that proved to be a little too complicated, getting people, business people into prisons and COVID into fear. So it is a program now where there is mentorship, serious mentorship of business people and non-business people. And what distinguishes the program from other re-entry programs, and my aside here is I have the greatest respect for people who... entry programs. ⁓ the Redemption Project uses the cardinal virtues of wisdom and fortitude and temperance and people who are in prison have an opportunity to be in classes led by people in the Redemption Project. And evidently this is working very, very well. It's still a relatively new program and there aren't great numbers of people who have been involved in the program, but it's several hundred now and their recidivism rate is Remarkably low. That's fantastic. Yeah, so I was on the board And it was on the board because of my involvement with Center of the American experiment ⁓ Nonprofits I knew something about nonprofits that they invited me on And somewhere along the way, several years ago, it was suggested to me that I do a said, uh, sounds good. So I started writing the book and one thing led to another and four years later, here we are. Fantastic. Yeah. It's a great book. Again. Thank you. You're very welcome. Um, by the I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. For the camera. Yeah. getting caught in the wires and everything. This is real class when I hold up the book. I'm not sure the video is going to be taken but for our listeners. Thank you. I love the cover by the way. Oh my goodness the cover is magnificent. I it today to a group and I started off by saying please do judge this book by its cover. One of the nice things for me about doing a book, at some point along the way, you get to work with the publisher in coming up with a cover. And in this instance, as I think ⁓ maybe one other time, they sent me, emailed me these graphics, these services where there are hundreds and hundreds of graphics that you can pick for a cover. Interesting. Very cheap for publisher or anybody who wants them to get them, to use them. And I mean, they were hundreds, they were thousands. 10 minutes into my search, I said, that's it. That is perfect. Suggesting what I want to suggest. Freedom. The only thing we changed, the birds originally were flying from right to left. I said, no, we have to reverse it and have the birds fly from left to right. Better show it. Better show it. So very pleased to thank you for that. Oh, you're welcome. No, was fascinated by the, because I come from a kind of an artistic background and I had my podcast designed by a graphic artist. felt that it was really worth it. And I have three barrettes, by the way, in gilded cages. This is kind of my artwork. Well, that's wonderful. Yeah, I really, especially to. Loved the fact about the chain link was kind of like a chain link and the deterrent to bear it. It's fantastic Yeah Moving on Jeffrey Gazanek, that how you pronounce his name? Because then an author of untapped talent how second-chance hiring works for your business in the community asserts that An economy that has too few workers to grow at a robust pace is more than just a slow growing economy his economy forever teetering on the edge of recession. ⁓ Could you comment on how do you see at present time what it's going to take for optimism to return in order to expand the economy ⁓ which ultimately will help incarcerated and ex-repenters? Great question. When I delivered the manuscript to Bloomsbury, ⁓ just about a year ago, I think it ⁓ was right before Christmas of what was last year, 2024, there were more jobs available in the United States than there were people looking for jobs, which usually is not the case, but it had just happened. started happening a short while earlier. And I made the point, is great news for people looking for work. Well, in the year or so since then, there have been other problems with the economy and all of a sudden it was written just about two months ago that there are now more people looking for jobs than available jobs, which is usually the case. I have confidence in this economy that it will... start growing again, it's frankly it's growing now but not as robustly as some would hope. There are jobs out there, there will be jobs out there. Sometimes, and not just for people coming out of prison, they're easier to get or harder to get at other time. But Jeff Kozenik is, ⁓ as as I'm concerned, my leading light where these questions are concerned. He's a banker, he's a very senior banker in Boston who has this interest in helping people coming out of prison, as I say, get on with their lives. And he hits this from not simply an economic perspective, not just a business perspective, but it's very good that he focuses on business and getting jobs and so forth. And he's written, as as I'm concerned, the best book on the subject that I've seen, not that I've seen them all. The difference with my book outside of following up on his themes, I also deal with the ethical side, religious questions and so forth. So I hit it from both an economic and, as I say, in the subtitle, ethical perspective. But Jeff is just first rate. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, I was really fascinated by that. Another book about family fragmentation you had interviewed Ron Haskins of the Brookings Institution. I was really interested about that, how difficult incarceration is for children who become alienated and you were talking about that's a big family fragmentation is a big part of this. ⁓ Could you expand a little upon Haskins as you mentioned powerful comments? Yeah the background for my interest in family breakdown is that I'm of the mind. that as long as the United States has so many kids being born out of wedlock with fathers nowhere to be seen quite frequently. Right now, about 40 % of all American children come into this world outside of marriage. And in many communities, the percentage, as we know, is much, higher. And I'm of the mind, as I mentioned a moment ago, a doctorate in education. And while questions of education policy are important, obviously some programs are better than others. I'm of the mind as long as we have those kinds of out of wedlock birth numbers, there is no way whatsoever we're going to fix education adequately. There's no way whatsoever we're going to reduce crime whatsoever. So that is my perspective. Ron Haskins is an old friend. His doctorate. ⁓ Is in psychology. ⁓ okay. He Was a very senior Official or staffer I should say for a house committee that worked on welfare reform 20 some odd years ago so he's totally immersed in the academic literature and what he sees around him and government works and so forth wonderfully ⁓ ⁓ broad-based and his point is when people men in this instance come out of prison and try to Become involved again in their families It's difficult all around but in this instance very difficult for kids who? May not have seen him had much to do with them for a year or more and ⁓ that time their mothers might be involved with another man. As Ron says, a year in the life of a child can feel like forever. So as we know, it becomes very difficult for that family unit, becomes very difficult for the kids, becomes difficult for everybody. ⁓ I know if you had a chance to see what I sent you some things and I'm sure that Your communications director is that passing along and kudos to ⁓ Nick for helping us out today. Excellent. Yeah And what by the young lady by the name of I've never met her in person, but she's wonderful. I've interviewed her in the Times ⁓ by just one Jessica Lynn ⁓ does go into she started up her own program of ⁓ like re-entry actually in reverse of getting the person, getting the offender, well getting the woman or man about to go into prison ⁓ from the get go right from day one and getting them involved with programs and such. And I think she's onto something pretty cool. Yeah, I would, let me expand on that. One of the points I wanted to make in this conversation, which I very much appreciate. As I say, it's difficult, can be exceedingly difficult. But there are people out there who really want to help. ⁓ I was taken back as I was writing. I would be at a Starbucks someplace and I'd be editing something I've written. And people would ask, well, what are you doing? I said, I'm writing a book about helping guys get on with their lives. And I don't want to overstate this. But the gratitude that they had that I was doing this showed on their face and their people think that this is a good idea. Now, whether or not that can be translated into tangible help is another matter. Taking it from another direction, a second chance hiring. When I went into the project, I thought I would have to make a very strong case. for second chance hiring, trying to convince business people and others that this is really a good, safe idea. ⁓ The idea has won. The intellectual battle, if you want to call it that, has been won. There isn't any movement out there. There isn't a loud voice out there saying this is a bad idea. The trick now is to implement it. And to recognize the difficulties of implementation, also recognize that some people say this is a wonderful idea, that they don't do anything about it, people in business. We all know that. You can call that hypocrisy or whatever you want to call it. In some instances, certainly it is there. But there is no strong opposition to it. I Googled one day something like opposition to second chance hiring. And the first five pieces that came back, all were actually in support of it. were caveats and so forth. But we need to take advantage of the goodwill and the interest that is indeed out there. Indeed if I might add something if that's okay locally Locally locally anecdotally kind of I was talking to well in one of my interviews and ⁓ Very interestingly the comment came up that if you ⁓ do hire a someone that's being hearing like a second chance or They'll They work hard and they'll never forget the opportunity to them. Yeah, there is some ⁓ evidence. I don't know if it's hard. research evidence. because so many people coming out of prison have an extra hard time getting a job, they wind up more loyal, which is exactly what you were just saying. For intrinsic reasons, I'm sure, in many instances, but also fear if they leave, they're going to have that great problem again. So yes, hiring people who are being given a second or third chance ⁓ will lead quite frequently to not just very competent and there's evidence to show that they're every bit as competent as people who generally speaking who have not been in prison but more loyal. interesting. ⁓ Thank you for saying that. If current trends continue future immigrants in the US born children will account for I believe you quoted ⁓ It was reported on some report research that 80, let me try that again, if current trends continue, future immigrants and their US-born children will account for 88 % of the nation's population. And so what I'm getting at kind of what you're getting, kind of infer that. I think growth in the workforce, though I could be wrong about that, but I should not interrupt. No, no, that's fine. I'm sure I, I have to, I kind of get streamed a little bit this morning. I got some things out and I could be wrong on that. So please do correct me on that. The question is the birth rate in the United States, the replacement rate is very low in order for population to stay steady, putting aside. questions of immigration, let's take all that off the table. American women have to have on average 2.1 children. Right now, the number is something like 1.67 children. Meaning, over time, we will indeed lose population, but more specifically in what we're talking about, we won't have enough workers. And I always come back, we need... workers and if we don't have enough the economy stalls. It's a wonderful research operation. Pew sounds terrible. P E W. Yeah, I did see that. Yeah. They have calculated that, given the fact that we're not making enough American babies or babies born on this continent by women who have been here, ⁓ we're born here that, ⁓ The number of new workers will be from families where the mother was actually born here, the immigrant mother, and the child more specifically was born here making the kid a citizen. those children will represent an extraordinarily high of new workers in this country. is an example of why we need more people in the workforce. Indeed. This example of why the argument can be made, and I make it, that part of this vacuum...
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