The Face of the Deep

The Face of the Deep is a podcast that is rooted in psychology but unbound by any single theory. We explore what makes us who we are—from the genes and stories we inherit to the ones we struggle to rewrite. Expect conversations that weave together clinical insight, Jungian thought, behavioral science, and a bit of political and cultural critique. Whether we're talking about trauma, personality, midlife, or the politics of mental health, this show asks deeper questions about the self, the soul, and the systems we live in.

Episode 16: Correlation is Not a Conclusion (Interview with Professor Eric Turkheimer) 07/03/2025

Episode 15 - The Mismeasure of Meaning: Nature, Nurture, and Nuance 06/20/2025

Episode 14: "Cluster B" Kids with Joshua Slocum 06/02/2025

Episode 13: Strained and Estranged - The Mother/Daughter Rupture 03/21/2025

Episode 12: Reclaim Your Inner Outlaw with Jungian Analyst Lisa Marchiano 09/18/2024

Episode 11: The Trouble With Twin Studies - Does DNA Really Make Us Who We Are? (with Jay Joseph) 08/27/2024

Episode 11: The Trouble With Twin Studies - Does DNA Really Make Us Who We Are? (with Jay Joseph) In this episode, I sit down with clinical psychologist Dr. Jay Joseph to discuss the issue of genetic research in IQ, personality, and psychiatric disorders—particularly in the context of the thirtieth anniversary of the publication of "The Bell Curve." While twin studies are exalted by behavioral geneticists as the gold standard research that definitively settles the so-called nature-nurture debate, our conversation explores a variety of problems with such claims. Dr. Joseph offers a strong critique of twin study methodologies and assumptions, and urges a very serious and thoughtful reconsideration of many of the field’s findings in light of psychology’s replication crisis. We discuss the so-called “missing heritability problem” posed by more modern methods of evaluating the genetic influence on IQ and personality, the relationship between ongoing genetic research and big pharma, and why he believes the findings of “The Bell Curve” fail to hold up under scrutiny thirty years later. Jay Joseph, Psy.D. is a clinical psychologist practicing in the San Francisco Bay Area. He has written critically about genetic research in the social and behavioral sciences continuously since the late 1990s, and is critical of medical models of human psychological distress and dysfunction. He is the author of four books, most recently Schizophrenia and Genetics: The End of an Illusion (2023). A complete list of his books, book chapters, and peer-reviewed articles can be found on his website: www.jayjoseph.net. Many of his online articles can be found on the Mad in America website: The Bell Curve at 30: A Closer Look at the Within- and Between-Group IQ Genetic Evidence: https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/jz7ku 5:30: Revisiting problematic assumptions and methodologies in twin studies, focusing on critiques of "The Bell Curve" on its thirtieth anniversary. 10:30: Examining the impact of environmental factors on twins raised in different families and the challenges of teasing out effects in twin studies. 15:52: Controversy surrounding the genetic component of IQ, particularly in relation to ethnic differences and media attention. 21:05: Misuse of genetic research to maintain power and wealth, hindering education system in the US. 26:54: Controversy surrounds the measurement of intelligence by IQ tests, with genetic assumptions challenged. 32:45: Challenges in twin studies due to lack of statistical significance in IQ correlations. 37:36: Issues with research publication pressure and ideological bias in psychology and political science. 42:35: Challenges in genetic research methods impacting heritability estimates. 48:00: Genetic influence in psychiatric disorders and intelligence research questioned. 53:06: Challenges in academic research due to biases, silo mentality, and lack of acknowledgment of conflicts of interest. 58:08: Exploring societal influences on mental health research and the limitations of focusing solely on biological factors. 1:03:31: Challenges with twin studies and their implications on genetic influences. ---- My ebooks: Join my membership community (courses, group coaching, 1:1 connections and messaging, and more): /episode/index/show/8b2c2b56-97ec-4f21-a0d5-6b5ebee55cf4/id/37290585

Episode 10: Introduction to My New Book, "Truth Be Told" 07/05/2024

Episode 9: The Seduction of Certainty 06/17/2024

Episode 8: Gone Girl - Perfectionism, Shame, and the Binge-Restrict Cycle in the Plant-Based World 02/09/2024

Episode 7: Childhood Trauma is Like Learning to Drive 02/02/2024

Episode 6: The Issues in Your Tissues - Somatic Awareness and Healing (with Jenna Pacelli) 01/31/2024

Episode 6: The Issues in Your Tissues - Somatic Awareness and Healing (with Jenna Pacelli) In this episode, I sit down with Jenna Pacelli, a licensed marriage and family therapist and Somatic Experiencing Practitioner for a rapid-fire discussion on a variety of topics and perspectives including: her background in wilderness therapy, early developmental trauma vs. "shock" trauma and what distinguishes them, how and why early trauma can linger in the body, how individuals can begin experimenting with a more embodied practice and approach (and also what doesn't work), the sorry state of therapy on social media, polar bears, and lots of other things. Resources mentioned: Peter Levine, "In an Unspoken Voice:" Alice Miller, "The Drama of the Gifted Child:" The polar bear video we discuss (10:50): To learn more about or to connect with Jenna, here are some places you can find her: jennapacelli.substack.com instagram.com/jennapacelli Timestamps: 0:48: Jenna's background and introduction. 5:26: Understanding trauma and its impact on individuals, with a focus on a somatic approach to healing. 10:35: Understanding predictable defensive responses in animals is crucial to preventing trauma symptoms. 15:11: Understanding trauma responses and resilience based on individual experiences and childhood upbringing. 19:54: Impact of early experiences on nervous system memory and intergenerational trauma. 24:52: The importance of distinguishing coping skills from actual treatment for regulation and healing. 30:05: The emergence of addictive strategies in response to intolerable environments, leading to external regulation of the nervous system. 35:15: Unconscious parental behavior may lead to using children to fulfill unmet needs, which can be perceived as love but has long-term effects. 40:03: Discussion on overcoming dissociation through trauma-informed yoga and body exploration. 45:11: Inconsistent advice in the wellness industry is leading to confusion and lack of progress in personal development. 50:28: Understanding the impact of dissociation and adaptive nervous system responses on individuals. My ebooks: Join my membership community (courses, group coaching, 1:1 connections and messaging, and more): /episode/index/show/8b2c2b56-97ec-4f21-a0d5-6b5ebee55cf4/id/37290945

Episode 5: Misguided Self Care - Understanding Addiction (with Adam Sud) 01/12/2024

Episode 5: Misguided Self Care - Understanding Addiction (with Adam Sud) In this episode I sit down with behavioral wellness and nutritional expert Adam Sud to discuss the roots of addiction and the promise of recovery. Why do some of us become addicted in the first place? Is it just a question of “supernormal stimuli” and unlucky genetic susceptibility, as I had always believed growing up and as we tend to think of these things in evopsych land? Or is addiction solving problems that seem otherwise unsolvable? How much does environmental context—including childhood dynamics—really matter? How do these things all interact with one another? And, most importantly: how can we recover—really recover, not just remain abstinent? How can we live a life free of compulsions of all kinds? As Adam says, it’s about making your life a “safe, secure, hopeful, and exciting” place to be. And that is true whether your rock bottom looks as scary as mine did, or as Adam’s did, or if you’re just trapped in some patterns of self-medication that are compensating for the ways in which you struggle to find that security, hope, and excitement. 0:31: Jen and Adam discuss our parallel paths of addiction and recovery. 5:37: How Adam's struggles with bullying and self-care led to seeking external solutions for feeling okay. 10:53: The initially miraculous effects of Aderall on confidence, energy, and social interactions. 16:35: How Adam sees struggling with substance use as a response to a life that feels meaningless and hopeless. 27:02: Adam's transition to a plant-based diet as a part of self-care during recovery from addiction. 32:07: The importance of self-care and choosing a healthy lifestyle to overcome addiction. 37:48: Understanding the genetic component of addiction and its manifestation in various behaviors and interpersonal relationships. 42:41: Strategies for managing self-criticism and advice from Johann Hari's book. 47:53: Understanding the reasons behind struggles with substance use disorder, anxiety, and depression. 53:02: Addiction as a search for a long-awaited feeling, leading to denial and difficulty in finding a solution. 57:55: Understanding the impact of addiction on meaningful bonds and future priorities. 1:03:02: Challenges in addiction recovery: slow progress, difficult course corrections, and unrealistic expectations. Connect with Adam at https://www.adamsud.com/ and on Instagram at @plantbasedaddict. ----- My ebooks: Join my membership community (courses, group coaching, 1:1 connections and messaging, and more): /episode/index/show/8b2c2b56-97ec-4f21-a0d5-6b5ebee55cf4/id/37291510

Episode 4: Highway to the Discomfort Zone 01/05/2024

Episode 3: The Truth Will Set You Free - Emotional Suppressionand Binge Eating (with Courtney Pool) 12/29/2023

Episode 3: The Truth Will Set You Free - Emotional Suppressionand Binge Eating (with Courtney Pool) My guest this week, Courtney Pool, is a nutritionist and coach who, like so many of us, “tried everything” to resolve the binge eating issues that have been with her since age 5. What finally worked for her was a combination of a healthy plant based diet and also a brutally honest, emotionally-driven investigation directly into her triggers and patterns. We discuss Courtney’s history with compulsive overeating, how she came to experiment with an emotionally-centered approach, and what that process has been like for her. We also talk about simple and practical tips for anyone struggling with addictive behavior to begin experimenting in similar ways themselves. 1:23: Courtney is a nutritionist who shares her journey to veganism, overcoming overeating, and healing emotionally. 5:46: We discuss the emotional and psychological aspects of overeating and the conflicting views on its root causes. 11:13: We discuss the emotional and psychological aspects of compulsive eating and how it can be addressed. 17:14: Courtney shares herjourney of overcoming compulsive eating through self-reflection, meditation, and juice cleansing. 22:51: We discuss the process of pushing oneself into discomfort to trigger emotions and address overeating. 27:51: We explore the importance of feeling intense emotions and practicing radical honesty to address compulsive eating and addiction. 33:34: The importance of being completely honest and open about compulsive eating and the healing process. 48:57: The importance of fully experiencing and expressing emotions, particularly anger, in order to uncover deeper underlying issues. 54:03:The role of family culture in shaping behavior. 59:49: The relationship between anger, emotions, and compulsive eating, and ideas for journaling and small experiments as a way to explore emotions related to food. To connect with Courtney, please visit her at Other resources mentioned: Radical Honesty: Author Geneen Roth: Divine Truth materials: My ebooks: Join my membership community (courses, group coaching, 1:1 connections and messaging, and more): /episode/index/show/8b2c2b56-97ec-4f21-a0d5-6b5ebee55cf4/id/37291555

Episode 2: The Defended Self - Internal Family Systems as a Path of Awareness 12/22/2023

Episode 2: The Defended Self - Internal Family Systems as a Path of Awareness In this episode, I sit down with my good friend Chrissy Benson for a conversation about Internal Family Systems, or IFS. Chrissy is a trained IFS practitioner with a decade of experience in the field, and she is, like myself, someone who has struggled with compulsive overeating/binge eating, and who has found the “beginner's mind” openness and inherent creativity of an IFS approach to be a powerful tool in her own recovery. We talk about what IFS is and how it differs from conventional therapy, and also what it has in common with it—including the cost/benefit analysis model and the “how can we get more information about this problem” approach we take in evo psych. She also shares some tips on how to practice with it yourself, with or without the help of a therapist. For more about Renaissance Woman Chrissy, including more about her “anti-romance romance" novel “Marrying Myself” and her own fabulous podcast, “Vegan Posse," you can visit . 0:12: Overview of internal family systems and the question of its intersection with evolutionary psychology. 5:31: The importance in therapy of holding space for individuals and asking clarifying questions without imposing ideas or solutions. 11:29: How IFS helped Chrissy appreciate and work with her anxiety as a part of herself, not an enemy. 28:05: The importance of building trust and understanding with different parts of oneself, especially for those who may feel disconnected from their emotional landscape. 33:25: The importance of recognizing different parts of oneself in therapeutic work, including the role of an analyzer part in explaining experiences. 38:35: The importance of allowing people to feel free and safe, and not overwhelmed by responsibilities. 49:40: The Internal Family Systems (IFS) model offers a different approach to therapy, providing a safe space to explore and address different parts of oneself. 54:55: Chrissy discusses how letting her "parts" let go of the need to constantly do things leads to a sense of freedom and peace. My ebooks: Join my membership community (courses, group coaching, 1:1 connections and messaging, and more): /episode/index/show/8b2c2b56-97ec-4f21-a0d5-6b5ebee55cf4/id/37291565

Episode 1: The Unbearable Burden of Pleasing 12/15/2023

The Face of the Deep

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