Are We Here Yet Podcast
We're telling the stories of entrepreneurs artists and other creative class warriors making a go of it in cities and small towns all over the country. The Are We Here Yet? Podcast blends topics of economic development, urban planning and arts and culture. We are the official podcast for SMGravesassociates.com.
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Rural Spotlight: 1Berkshires Ben Lamb
08/08/2025
Rural Spotlight: 1Berkshires Ben Lamb
I’ve wanted to interview Ben Lamb for a few years now and he did not disappoint. We spoke on diversifying revenue streams for his organization's regional work and whether the rapid federal funding changes are having an effect. We also spent considerable time on housing challenges and what it could look like using a growing housing sector to improve the regional economy. We made an argument against de-populating western MA (in fact, Berkshire county is re-populating) and we took a close look at the state of the region’s micro markets, some behind 2000 units or more and how this presents an opportunity. How codes designed for larger urban areas are limiting factors in a region like the Berkshires and where the biggest opportunities are for developers in sectors like senior living and downtown mixed use. What does the current tech and manufacturing sectors look like today 40 years on after the shock of loosing core industries in cities like North Adams and Pittsfield? There is a unique connectedness of rural communities here in New England and we had an opportunity to explore how Berkshire county is taking advantage of that. We hope you enjoy.
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Our Debate and Report on the State of Artificial Intelligence
07/31/2025
Our Debate and Report on the State of Artificial Intelligence
The Innova802 crew sat down to take stock together on where we stand on Artificial Intelligence: Its effect on politics, creativity, industry, labor, culture and the possibility of global destabilization. Have no fear, rather than simply complaining as to the side effects of an inappropriately deployed plan by the tech sector for AI, we delve into each of our insights on how a beneficial future could be wrought through the use of AI. This could be a highly informative episode for our listeners coming on the heels of the United State’s WHite House report, Resources mentioned in our discussion
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This Message Is Imperative: Can We Get Back Building for the Better?
07/30/2025
This Message Is Imperative: Can We Get Back Building for the Better?
In two essays recently published and formed here into a podcast, Scott Graves offers perspective on how to build for the benefit of our society. In he explores the perils of launching a nationwide AI technological effort that continues the predatory business models from our largest tech platforms that has arguably produced one of the more widespread detrimental results for our society and that of the planet. We didn't ask for it, we’ve clearly requested an alternative direction, so why can’t our tech sector respond favorably to what society truly desires? In Scott breaks down the meaning behind one of the most prescient quotes from writer and environmentalist Wendell Berry in order to discover the inner meaning behind the concepts that demonstrate for us why we need to get beyond our simplistic consumerism and how we may benefit from doing so. An exercise he performed recently with a group of high school students in Vermont.
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Consorvia Says It’s Time to Romance Innovation
07/23/2025
Consorvia Says It’s Time to Romance Innovation
Consorvia’s founder, Christina Fedor wants to redefine society’s relationship to the creative sector. With their latest client platform the company is fundamentally bringing the individual and the system together to serve people in their effort to self actualize. Our conversation reached into the benefits of letting people young and old flex their deepest and most creative muscles. Some of the issues with how we interact with tech and the solutions to overcoming these limitations. is an R&D ecosystem primed to answer the really big questions that seem to be converging on us at an accelerated rate none of us has experienced before in our lifetimes. What kind of AI do we truly desire to interact with? How does tech bring the most creative out of us? How do we build whole new systems for better leveraging tech?
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A July Fourth Like No Other
07/17/2025
A July Fourth Like No Other
Our Host Scott M. Graves and his essay offering personal and historical perspective; his take on the privilege of being alive to take part in reinvigorating our belief in the Constitution and the rule of law. Part of a series of essays in the .
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Innovative Funding Leaders Compound Good Launch!
07/15/2025
Innovative Funding Leaders Compound Good Launch!
Innova802 Crew Member Will Jeffries represented the team for the Burlington, VT premiere of a new and innovative funding organization, Compound good. Compound Good is a nonprofit fund that allows donors to make impact investments with philanthropy, unlocking capital for social entrepreneurs. Founders include Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies (VCET), Sage Software and Lawson’s Finest Liquids while supported ventures include , and a company familiar to the Innova802 podcast, and founder Meagan Downey. Following a viewing of their latest launch video, they sat down with Will Jeffries in front of a live studio audience.
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Do We Have A Housing Crisis? Two Perspectives from behind the front lines Plus our Tribute to Sly Stone & Brian Wilson
07/09/2025
Do We Have A Housing Crisis? Two Perspectives from behind the front lines Plus our Tribute to Sly Stone & Brian Wilson
I had the distinct pleasure to sit down with two leading voices from the Congress for New Urbanism this past spring for a frank conversation on our current housing crisis. Their different ages and life experiences offer us a wealth of perspective to learn from and leverage. Let’s dive right in to learn together in order to better each of our efforts to solve the issues of housing in America. Todd Zimmerman and his partner Laurie Volk founded four decades ago, to address the walkability and economic viability of cities and towns throughout the United States. They developed over that time their own methodology for completing the work they performed. Both got their start as journalists and like so many of us who came to development from a non-traditional background, leveraged their skills to bring fresh ideas to the realm of the built environment. Carlos Sainz Caccia is a Mexican born Urban planner living and working in Boston Massachusetts for the leading firm . His perspective particularly caught my attention in the fall of 2024 as I participated in a debate on the merits of CNU’s voice in solving the current housing crisis during CNU’s regional conference in Providence, RI. We start our discussion with Carlos’s take on what’s driving housing’s unaffordability. These conversations often quickly stream into the social, financial, cultural and other worlds that contribute to the problem but inform possible solutions. We then move to a broader look at the issues contributing with Todd. We’re going to present these conversations over several episodes. Thanks for our friends at the for suggesting these interviews and introducing us to Carlos and Todd. We hope you enjoy.
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Tribute to the Music of Sly Stone & Brian Wilson
07/03/2025
Tribute to the Music of Sly Stone & Brian Wilson
Are We Here Yet? Host Scott Graves chosen profession was as a performing artist. In this episode he pays tribute to two of his idols who recently passed away, Sly Stone of Sly and the Family Stone fame and Brian Wilson, songwriter and member of the California iconic Beach Boys.
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The Church of Temporal Naturalism Pt II
06/24/2025
The Church of Temporal Naturalism Pt II
When you connect with a born to be entrepreneur you know it. In our experience we place all creatives; the artists, the dreamers, the community builders in this category of human experience. Our guest for this two part episode exemplifies what we’re talking about. In a little more than an hour, and co-hosts Scott Graves and Ryan Munn explored Ron’s development of digital solutions for aiding mission-driven organizations, really community building in Web3 that is meaningful to the human world, focusing on Ron’s work with AI for social impact ( and ), philanthropy reform, and the challenges of synthesizing beneficial aspects of various traditions while avoiding past pitfalls. We talked about Ron’s work to develop The Church of Temporal Naturalism which we explored in depth, particularly in part II. But what we loved the most about talking with Ron was how he has spent the time necessary to understand and allow others into his understanding for why? What’s behind the importance of understanding how and why we desire to respond to others needs. His work is asking the question ‘can we have meaningful connection and build a more spiritual, less transactional world through the digital realm? You hear us talk a lot on our podcasts about tech’s proper place in our society. Ron lives this every day. This discussion was insightful, exhilarating and left us with considerable items for self-reflection. We hope it does the same for you as well.
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The Church of Temporal Naturalism Pt I
06/24/2025
The Church of Temporal Naturalism Pt I
When you connect with a born to be entrepreneur you know it. In our experience we place all creatives; the artists, the dreamers, the community builders in this category of human experience. Our guest for this two part episode exemplifies what we’re talking about. In a little more than an hour, and co-hosts Scott Graves and Ryan Munn explored Ron’s development of digital solutions for aiding mission-driven organizations, really community building in Web3 that is meaningful to the human world, focusing on Ron’s work with AI for social impact ( and ), philanthropy reform, and the challenges of synthesizing beneficial aspects of various traditions while avoiding past pitfalls. We talked about Ron’s work to develop The Church of Temporal Naturalism which we explored in depth, particularly in part II. But what we loved the most about talking with Ron was how he has spent the time necessary to understand and allow others into his understanding for why? What’s behind the importance of understanding how and why we desire to respond to others needs. His work is asking the question ‘can we have meaningful connection and build a more spiritual, less transactional world through the digital realm? You hear us talk a lot on our podcasts about tech’s proper place in our society. Ron lives this every day. This discussion was insightful, exhilarating and left us with considerable items for self-reflection. We hope it does the same for you as well.s
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What Artificial Intelligence Could Be w/ AIGO.AI founder Peter Voss
06/18/2025
What Artificial Intelligence Could Be w/ AIGO.AI founder Peter Voss
It was a high point for co-hosts Ryan Munn and Scott M. Graves when they were joined last week by founder Peter Voss. Peter’s a long-time innovator, founder, advocate and thinker concerning Artificial Intelligence(he coined the term artificial general intelligence) whose insights shared with us are making us think further, dig deeper into our own advocacy for the best use of AI in order to realize a benefit to a maximum spectrum of the worlds’ population. This is your opportunity to invest with one of the world’s most thoughtful innovation leaders in artificial intelligence. Find out more by engaging . So what exactly does Peter Voss think about the current state of Artificial Intelligence? Are our current tech sector leaders, politicians and business leaders making the most and for the benefit of all humanity? Listen now for the answers to these and more questions. We hope we can offer some answers to you while helping you generate your own new and thoughtful questions on the subject of artificial intelligence.
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Market Rate Housing is the Affordable Housing Solution
06/05/2025
Market Rate Housing is the Affordable Housing Solution
Host Scott Graves is once again joined by Stephen Box, Scott’s partner in Partners in Housing, small scale housing developments in Vermont and columnist under the column header, the accidental activist. Stephen is also our co-host for The Housers Podcast. Stephen and Scott explain for listeners how a more aggressive approach to building market rate housing in the US could benefit the affordable housing market. Our ideas are backed by We also touch upon why providing economic development programming to empower local residents, coupled with increasing home values in a given market is the antidote to gentrification. t
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Checking in with the Vermont Futures Project
05/08/2025
Checking in with the Vermont Futures Project
Vermont isn't just shrinking in population, its aging. The state has 30,000 fewer working age citizens between 25-40 then it did 25 years ago. This, while modest population gains during the Covid-19 pandemic has reversed. For those of us at the Innova802 Crew, we see the effects every day. Many citizens on fixed incomes, who represent a larger share of the population, cannot afford increases to taxes for education, infrastructure and public healthcare subsidies. For many, the gut reaction is to say, no new Vermont citizens, no new Vermont students, no new Vermont employers taking in public investment dollars. While this may seem intuitively correct, it is in fact the path to a downward economic cycle that becomes very challenging to reverse, especially for rural states. We hosted Kevin Chu, Executive Director of the Vermont Futures Project during . One year later, the Innova802 crew had him back to talk about the effort to get all Vermonters on the same page, writing a book of growth in order to create a more livable Vermont bursting at the seams with opportunity and the right balance between caring for our neighbors and having the ability to pay for it. This Are We Here Yet? podcast is in association with the Innova802 podcast.
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The Four G’s of Open Innovation
04/29/2025
The Four G’s of Open Innovation
Open Innovation has become essential to good science being completed by our institutions. Our guest this week, Steve Rader speaks with experience on how open innovation, rather crowdsourcing has and will shape good science work moving forward. Steven recently retired from NASA and is an expert in open innovation after 36 years with NASA at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, TX. We discussed his experiences leveraging crowdsourcing and open innovation to achieve significant cost savings and accelerate technological advancements at NASA, including nearly 900 successful challenges within his career. He highlighted the importance of understanding a problem’s root causes before brainstorming solutions and the four "G's" driving participation (Gold, Guts, Glory, and Good) by thousands of our neighbors passionate about the work of science. . This Are We Here Yet? podcast is in association with the Innova802 podcast.
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Know, Like & Trust
04/22/2025
Know, Like & Trust
Sharing the mic with Interchain.Live and fellow Innova802 crew member Ryan Munn brought Richard Lowe to our virtual studios for a discussion regarding Rich’s experience as a The discussion quickly deepened to include his perspective on building the bionic worker: getting business to leverage tech to support workers as opposed to leveraging tech to replace them. The importance of leveraging older workers who are living longer and what experienced professionals bring to the table for companies and society. Rich is a deep well of experience on a number of important topics that we encourage you to think more on after listening. Find our discussion on the Podcast roster as well as and
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Why is Affordable Housing Unaffordable to Build?
04/09/2025
Why is Affordable Housing Unaffordable to Build?
Host and founder Scott Graves is asking some tough questions for all of us to ask in our own communities. How do we get beyond a place of manufactured scarcity and support all forms of private and public housing development to meet our middle market needs? Find Scott’s Latest Essays from An Artist Audio recording on and the . Find his housing advocacy work, along with Housers Stephen Box and Mike Waugh at
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Building, Inc’s Matt Schneider
03/18/2025
Building, Inc’s Matt Schneider
Athens, GA is home to Building, Inc and founder Matthew Schneider. Matthew is no stranger to a multi-disciplinary approach to solving some of the toughest challenges for real estate developers and tech leaders alike. Our discussion hit upon some real-world solutions-oriented work he and his team has done and sage perspective on software use in real estate, on raising and using capital, on building your business to be truly market-responsive.
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The Cities We Need: A Talk with Gabrielle Bendiner-Viani
03/09/2025
The Cities We Need: A Talk with Gabrielle Bendiner-Viani
has spent 20+ years working to understand what’s in a neighborhood by asking the question, ‘Where would you take someone on a guided tour of your neighborhood?’ In her 2024 book, Viani walks us through the tours she participated in from dozens of her neighbors in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn and Mosswood in Oakland, CA, two cities she and her family spent time getting to know intimately. As a photographer, urbanist and keen storyteller Gabrielle brings to our attention important considerations that truly make you think hard about what makes a neighborhood. What it means to be a part of a place or really what makes our everyday lives worth living. Our conversation made me think hard here at the Are We Here Yet? podcast about what kind of a society we want to build and who we want to be in the decades ahead. How can we learn from our mistakes? How can we appreciate the micro-moments that make our lives in a neighborhood worth living and how do we steward a place to provide that for all citizens? You know a book and a conversation is good when it leaves you asking more questions than providing answers. And our conversation with Gabrielle was just such an experience.
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AWHY: Why you should Care about BlockChain Tech
02/25/2025
AWHY: Why you should Care about BlockChain Tech
Hosts Ryan Munn and Scott Graves are joined by Justin Loranger of in what we’re sure you’ll find to be an excellent primer on why blockchain is the key to transforming crypto into accepted currency, offering security and stability. Why should you anticipate the value of your name and that of your company in the digital realm? Lots to learn for building our rural economies (you don’t need to be in a city to leverage this tech to your benefit). In collaboration with and
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AWHY - A $100 Billion Strategy for Rural Massachusetts
02/06/2025
AWHY - A $100 Billion Strategy for Rural Massachusetts
Production notes: Please add the following voiceover to end: Do download your copy of ‘Pioneer Valley Knowledge Towns Strategy Proposal’ go to Dominic Endicott joins us for a second time on the AWHY? Podcast to discuss a white paper co-published by Dominic and AWHY? Host Scott Graves, detailing a $100 billion dollar strategy for transforming the regional economy for Massachusetts, specifically the western third of the Commonwealth. By focusing on two top components of their proposal, housing and venture capital growth, listeners will understand the real potential for the region and a bit of how to start working on their own plan for the place they call home. Dominic Endicott is co-author of 2023’s Knowledge Towns: Colleges and Universities as Talent Magnets along with Prof. David J. Staley of the Ohio State University. Scott M. Graves is a real estate developer working in the Pioneer Valley and nationally in the youth urban and senior living markets.
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We Can’t Park in Rutland, Vermont! Plus new podcast announcement ‘Housers’
01/24/2025
We Can’t Park in Rutland, Vermont! Plus new podcast announcement ‘Housers’
Host Scott Graves is joined by fellow Vermont houser Stephen Box of Rutland. Our discussion focused on both the local discussion and a more global look at how parking is affecting housing in all of our communities in the United States. Stephan, a loyal resident recently received a parking ticket in front of his own house due to a winter parking ban (we know you listeners in Florida are scratching your heads). And our city is in the midst of discussion around a . At the local level, how can we craft our parking ordinances to encourage housing growth? And with the global discussion including , are we at the vanguard of a more sane approach to parking nation-wide? New Podcast announcement! Stephen and Scott and a few of their friends are launching ‘Housers’ for Spring 2025. A project of M the Media Project and Interchain Live. We’re telling the stories and featuring the heroes in our own small scale landlord and developer community in central Vermont because we know you’re out there making it happen in your own communities, and we could all use a monthly dose of smart solutions and moral support. Housers is in conjunction with which will feature our stories in print and the digital paper under the column ‘802 words’.
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Our Season Closer: The Jazz Room & Female Instrumentalists
12/24/2024
Our Season Closer: The Jazz Room & Female Instrumentalists
And in today's episode we show you some of the leading examples today. We end our season ten with host Joan Watson Jones look into some of Jazz’s unsung heroes. Women representing a wide range of ethnic and social backgrounds have always been vital to the jazz community. With that said, most folks focus on the jazz vocalists like Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughn. In this Jazz Room we look to the women as instrumentalists and largely from current times including Carol Sudhalter, Linda Presgrave, Jan Lear, Marion McPartland, Shirley Horn (yes, she is a piano player of renown) and Emily Remler plus a host of their male counterparts. Join us once again in The Jazz Room!
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Re-thinking Commerce: Enter the Gifting Grove
12/19/2024
Re-thinking Commerce: Enter the Gifting Grove
As we enter the winter solstice, exploring the dark that inevitably comes before the light, we’re considering new ways to think about gifting, yes, and what of commerce? What of a community that reverses the epidemic of loneliness pervasive in our modern society? Can we do better? That’s up in the latest Are We Here Yet? Podcast to close season X and 2024. I’m joined by Veronica Mangio, founder of the Minneapolis-based and once again by my good friend from Grand Isle County, Vermont based Byron Garcia of Natural Designs. Veronica is the inspiring founder of Gifting Grove, a company dedicated to facilitating community that can involve creating meaningful, sustainable, and handcrafted gifts that leave a lasting impact, sharing time, and skills. Her vision is rooted in promoting conscious gifting, empathy in an epidemic of loneliness, and supporting local artisans/organizations, fostering environmental and social well-being. Veronica has turned her passion for sustainability and community into a thriving business redefining how we think about giving. Referenced in our episode
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The Can-Do of Camden, IN- Neil Mylet
12/13/2024
The Can-Do of Camden, IN- Neil Mylet
Neil Mylet is a do-er. He’s a farmer, a tech advocate and connecting rod. Neil is also putting his money and his talents where his mouth is, funding his own project, Camden Castle and ensuring a wide spectrum of top-tier programming and connections for his 600 neighbors in the village of Camden, Indiana. Neil sees great opportunity in a future rural economy leveraging AI, blockchain, among other tech and tech-enabled products and services yet to be developed. Students and their families from this village of are given opportunities to intern and engage with organizations in the United States such as the Tulsa Innovation Labs and MIT and internationally with tech centers like the RDI Labs of Ireland. "It’s very challenging in rural America to access a competitive advantage, resources, in a comfortable environment and we need to change that…" This conversation was all about how folks like Neil, yours truly, and you our faithful listeners build access into your own local projects; how do we stay the course on what is important to us as a project of economic development and physical space development despite all the challenges. Listen in to learn, grab some ideas and make them your own. Mentioned in our episode: , , , ,
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Innova802: Pt II New Frameworks Plus The Jazz Room Celebrates the Saxophone
12/02/2024
Innova802: Pt II New Frameworks Plus The Jazz Room Celebrates the Saxophone
We joined Ace McCarleton of Vermont-based to talk about their panelized building innovations for the housing marketplace. New Frameworks practices high performance natural building towards the construction of climate justice and regeneration. Innovation is expressed in their home construction products and processes, their sourcing of materials, for sure. But it’s also in their employee-ownership model, their steadfast dedication to inclusion and more. Learn in two episodes their origin story, Ace’s thoughts on housing innovation, employee ownership and how to grow a company that consistently leads through example. Explore New Frameworks And the The Jazz Room… We celebrate the Saxophonists! Our episode includes the likes of Billy Pierce, Jackie MacLean, Coleman Hawkins and John Coltrane.
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Innova802: New Frameworks Plus The Jazz Room on Drummers
11/27/2024
Innova802: New Frameworks Plus The Jazz Room on Drummers
We joined Ace McCarleton of Vermont-based to talk about their panelized building innovations for the housing marketplace. New Frameworks practices high performance natural building towards the construction of climate justice and regeneration. Innovation is expressed in their home construction products and processes, their sourcing of materials, for sure. But it’s also in their employee-ownership model, their steadfast dedication to inclusion and more. Learn in two episodes their origin story, Ace’s thoughts on housing innovation, employee ownership and how to grow a company that consistently leads through example. Plus in The Jazz Room we celebrate the Drummers! Host Joan Watson-Jones dedication to drummers. Though she did not have the pleasure of interviewing the great Roy Haynes who passed away last week, we have many of his friends to celebrate in this episode.
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Innova802: Snap, Crackle, Pop! Plus a Tribute to the legend Quincy Jones
11/21/2024
Innova802: Snap, Crackle, Pop! Plus a Tribute to the legend Quincy Jones
is a construction materials company manufacturing foam glass gravel, or in company parlance GLAVEL. CEO Rob Conboy sat down with the Innova802 crew to discuss what it took to bring this technology to market in the US. How are they leading in recycling and carbon sequestration, excellence in innovative construction materials how they plan for growth and what effect they can have contributing to solve the housing crisis. We recently toured their facility and give credit to the Glavel team for epitomizing what a Vermont rural innovation company should look like. Shout out to those mentioned who helped this team and many other Innova802 guests along the way including , and . Stay on the line for host Scott M. Graves’s personal tribute to one of his inspirations, the legendary composer, arranger, producer and entrepreneur Quincy Jones. Jones passed away at his home in Los Angeles on November 3 at the age of 91.
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AWHY? Music feature Extra: We Remember Saxophonist Lou Donaldson
11/17/2024
AWHY? Music feature Extra: We Remember Saxophonist Lou Donaldson
Lou Donaldson passed away on November 10, 2024. In a career spanning more than seven decades, the alto saxophonist began as a stylist devotee to the bop of Charlie Parker, quickly evolving into a soulful and bluesy player which became his signature. Joan Watson Jones, host of the AWHY? Music feature The Jazz Room sat down to interview Lou in 2020 at Studio 952 in Harlem, New York City. In Part 1 of their interview Lou tells us how he got started in the business and why he took up the Saxophone. In Part 2 he tells us about working with Miles Davis, Jimmy Smith and offers his own observations on the future of Jazz.
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AWHY? Music feature: Celebrating Gershwin in Jazz
11/14/2024
AWHY? Music feature: Celebrating Gershwin in Jazz
Our music feature, The Jazz Room returns for a feature of the great American composer George Gershwin. Host Joan Watson Jones features many great musicians from a long list of recordings featuring the work of George Gershwin, one of the most prized composers of the American song book. For jazz musicians, Gershwin represents an endless source to be mined to create great improvisations and has been for over a century.
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The Case for Incremental Development
11/06/2024
The Case for Incremental Development
Our guest is Noah Harper. I met Noah at the conference in Providence, RI. We were tasked by the organization to debate whether the Congress is positioned well as a leading voice in the current housing challenge before us all. Thus sparked some great discussion. Noah has been featured in He is a community planner for the firm J.M. Goldson. Noah is a strong advocate for incremental development and we're sure you will find inspiration in his seamless movement through themes of design excellence, craftsmanship to equity and democracy. In his own words, We are, broadly, in a crisis of housing affordability, of which one notable piece is the lack of supply. The question to me then becomes: how should we solve the supply issue? We’ve been experimenting with a lot of different methods of building in the last century, but a return to a more traditional way of building might yield the best result. I’m really interested in the work and writing of Christopher Alexander, an architecture professor working in the sixties and seventies who wrote a book called “The Timeless Way of Building.” It’s on many planners and architects' shelves, but I think some of the biggest ideas have been overlooked (at least until now). I like to think of it in terms of music. How did we arrive at different genres? How do they evolve over time? By people playing them, innovating, copying off one another. A mutually agreed-upon structure, but also room to innovate, for participation, for call and response. Memes are another great example too—order and variation and innovation. And one of Alexander’s big ideas is that our places grew up in the same way, too. It’s why so many of our towns and villages have a certain quality, and yet they’re not quite the same. This decentralized, memetic, fundamentally creative act is what motivates me as a planner and writer and advocate. It’s the way we achieve beauty and a more democratic order in our built environment, through more people building and taking part in their place. And, beyond the sort of beauty argument, I think you can make a really strong moral and economic case for it too.
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