Not Even Mad

Approaching the news from distinctly different points on the political spectrum, host Mike Pesca, and panelists Liz Wolfe and Michael A. Cohen, attempt to change each other’s minds on the most important stories of the day. Often unsuccessfully. Between the non-stop election cycle and torrents of cancellations (real or imagined), there is a ton to argue about. But don’t worry. In the end, they’re NOT EVEN MAD.

EP 21 | Allison Schraeger and Matt Yglesias 06/12/2025

EP 21 | Allison Schraeger and Matt Yglesias Economist Allison Schraeger and Slow Boring’s Matt Yglesias join Mike to discuss the unrest in Los Angeles — and how to protest without giving Donald Trump a win. Then, the trio surveys the NYC mayoral mess — or, if not a mess, whatever government-run grocery stores are. Plus, the Big Beautiful Bill is only one of those things, and it’s the worse one. Goat Grinders: summer smells, promiscuous earbuds, and that final month of school when they stop even pretending to educate the children. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980835

EP 20 | Michael Cohen & Eli Lake 05/21/2025

EP 20 | Michael Cohen & Eli Lake Eli Lake and Michael A. Cohen take stock of the Biden health debate—diagnosis, exaggeration, and whether it’s actually affected his presidency. Michael pushes back on what he calls the “decline industrial complex,” while Eli says its denial to think Biden was up to the job. Then they turn to Donald Trump’s proudly post-moral foreign policy, where human rights don’t even make the brochure and alliances are strictly optional. Realpolitik or just real reckless? Either way, they’re not even mad. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980840

EP 19 | Austin Berg & Eric Zorn 05/08/2025

EP 19 | Austin Berg & Eric Zorn Austin Berg and Eric Zorn are Not Even Mad as we discuss mayoral overcrowding and Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, the supposed new MAGA slayer. Plus: a few thoughts on our new American spiritual leader—not the pope, but the Surgeon General. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980850

EP 18 | Bryan Green and Carine Hajjar 04/17/2025

EP 18 | Bryan Green and Carine Hajjar Boston Globe columnist Carine Hajjar and The Commercial Break’s Bryan Green debate whether Joe Rogan’s platforming of antisemitic conspiracies signals a deeper rot—or just the cost of open conversation. Plus: should Harvard be defunded? And will Kilmar Abrego Garcia stay in a Salvadoran prison? In Goat Grinders, we take aim at student driver bumper stickers, White Lotus star Aimee Lou Wood’s biting critique of SNL, and nothing left to stream. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980855

EP 17 | Sarah Isgur and Sarada Peri 04/03/2025

EP 17 | Sarah Isgur and Sarada Peri In this “Not Even Mad” episode, Sarah Isgur of The Dispatch and former Obama speech writer Sarada Peri dig into “massive cuts under DOGE, Cory Booker’s latest stemwinder, recent election results, and somehow, Chester A. Arthur crashes the party. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980860

EP 16 | Anthony Weiner and Nick Gillespie 03/20/2025

EP 16 | Anthony Weiner and Nick Gillespie Former Congressman (and current NYC Council candidate) Anthony Weiner and Reason Editor-at-Large Nick Gillespie square off over whether the national debt is an true crisis, if Chuck Schumer made the best of a bad hand, and whether government can—or should—ever shrink. Plus, in Goat Grinders, we take on Walter Cronkite’s legacy, the absurd NCAA tournament gripes, and the myth of “wanting it more.” /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980865

EP 15 | Tariffs and Doge's Dodgy Dogma 03/06/2025

EP 15 | Tariffs and Doge's Dodgy Dogma On this episode of Not Even Mad, Michael Cohen and Liz Wolfe dissect Trump’s State of the Union-ish spectacle, where he barely asked for forbearance on tariffs and delivered a slew of inaccuracies. We debate whether the Democrats’ paddle-waving protest theater was cringeworthy or just ineffective. Plus, in Goat Grinders, playground break-ins, Icelandair’s deplaning procedures, and the forced obligation of pretending to care about the Oscars. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980870

EP 14 | NYC Mayor Eric Adams & The War In Ukraine 02/20/2025

EP 14 | NYC Mayor Eric Adams & The War In Ukraine On Not Even Mad, Noam Dworman—owner of the Comedy Cellar and host of Live from the Table—and Dan Savage—of Savage Love and Savage Lovecast—join to debate the non-prosecution of NYC Mayor Eric Adams, and the potential for negotiating an end to the war in Ukraine. Plus, we dive into "goat grinders" on Adrien Grenier, mirror pronouns, media credibility, and—somehow—dental dams. And because you’ve subscribed directly, enjoy a bonus segment on the most offensive SNL sketches featured in the /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980875

EP 13 | Trump’s Overreach & the Democrats’ Lack of Reach 02/06/2025

EP 13 | Trump’s Overreach & the Democrats’ Lack of Reach Katie Herzog, co-host of Blocked and Reported, and Jonah Goldberg, editor-in-chief of The Dispatch, discuss if Donald Trump's attempts to blame DEI for a tragic military plane crash and Elon Musk's unplugging of USAID will wind up hurting the Trumpian agenda. Also discussed, the Democrats’ disastrous brand - what can a party that once prided itself on broad appeal do to find favor with voters? /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980880

EP 12 | Trump's First Four Days 01/23/2025

EP 12 | Trump's First Four Days Mike is joined by Michael A. Cohen of the Truth and Consequences Substack and MSNBC, along with Matt Welch, Editor-at-Large of Reason magazine, for another installment of Not Even Mad. The trio discusses Trump’s inauguration, executive actions, refugee policy, DEI, and the eventful first few days of his second term as POTUS. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980885

EP 11 | Hiatus Over! The Pardon Of Hunter Biden 12/06/2024

EP 11 | Hiatus Over! The Pardon Of Hunter Biden We reconstitute Not Even Mad with panelists Liz Wolfe (Reason and the Just Asking Questions podcast) and Michael A. Cohen (MSNBC columnist and author of the Truth and Consequences newsletter) to discuss and debate the pardon of Hunter Biden and all the many, many explanations for the Democrats poor showing on election day 2024. Plus, goats are grinded over Standard Time, "Increasingly," and Pamela Anderson with or without makeup. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980890

EP 10 | Hiatus? They Didn’t Even Get To Know Us 02/17/2023

EP 10 | Hiatus? They Didn’t Even Get To Know Us On the final episode of Not Even Mad (well, at least for now), hosts Mike Pesca, David French, and Lara Bazelon discuss the idea the show was founded on, and then Mike signs off. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980895

EP 09 | Puppy Play Purloiner, Jan 6 Criminal Referrals, Republican Deadliness 12/21/2022

EP 09 | Puppy Play Purloiner, Jan 6 Criminal Referrals, Republican Deadliness Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Jamie Kirchick, and Dan Savage discuss the January 6th committee's criminal referrals, two new studies that correlate Republican policies and politicians with higher mortality, and debate the case of Samuel Brinton the self-proclaimed first openly genderfluid federal government employee, who was arrested for stealing luggage from two different airports. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980900

EP 08 | Senator Sinema’s Democratic Party Defection, Merchant of Death for Brittney Griner swap, and Twitter Moderation: Futility vs. Utility 12/14/2022

EP 08 | Senator Sinema’s Democratic Party Defection, Merchant of Death for Brittney Griner swap, and Twitter Moderation: Futility vs. Utility EP 08 Senator Sinema’s Democratic Party Defection, Merchant of Death for Brittney Griner swap, and Twitter Moderation: Futility vs. UtilityToday on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Jamie Kirchick, and Sarada Peri discuss Arizona Senator Krysten Sinema's switch to Independent, the prisoner swap that gave Russia back a notorious arms dealer, and what new batches of "The Twitter Files" say about the impossibility of satisfactory content moderation. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980905

EP 07 | Oath Keeper Conviction, Christian Web Designer disinclinations, and Laptop non-revelations 12/07/2022

EP 07 | Oath Keeper Conviction, Christian Web Designer disinclinations, and Laptop non-revelations Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, David French, and Lara Bazelon discuss the speech and discrimination implications of 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis; the not-terribly-difficult task of getting a seditious conspiracy conviction, and ask if Matt Taibbi could wring any more recriminations over coverage of Hunter Biden's Laptop. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980910

EP 06 | Mass Shooting Motivations, Biden 2024, and Cancel Court: James Webb Space Telescope 11/30/2022

EP 06 | Mass Shooting Motivations, Biden 2024, and Cancel Court: James Webb Space Telescope Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss narratives around mass shootings, the likelihood of Joe Biden’s 2024 bid, and the man with a space telescope named after him goes to Cancel Court. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980915

EP 05 | SBF’s Woke-Washing, Red Card For Qatar, and Cancel Court: Leana Wen 11/23/2022

EP 05 | SBF’s Woke-Washing, Red Card For Qatar, and Cancel Court: Leana Wen Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick ponder the idea that woke Democrats may have enabled SBF’s fraud crypto exchange, analyze the decision to participate in Qatar’s World Cup, and then don the robes of the Cancel Court to debate the cancellation of former public health official Leana Wen for her Covid-19 stance. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980920

EP 04 | Trump 2024, Campaigning Against Wokeness, and White Lotus Politics 11/16/2022

EP 04 | Trump 2024, Campaigning Against Wokeness, and White Lotus Politics Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss Donald Trump announcing his run for President again, whether the 2022 election results will be seen as a death knell to CRT and wokeness as an election issue, and the gender politics in this season of White Lotus. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980925

EP 03 | Mid-Term ClusterTrump, Kyrie Irving Goes To Cancel Court 11/10/2022

EP 03 | Mid-Term ClusterTrump, Kyrie Irving Goes To Cancel Court Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick search for the lessons of Tuesday’s midterms and marvel at the poor performance of Donald Trump’s hand-picked candidates and what their showings say about his hold on the Republican Party. Then they put the Brooklyn Nets’ Kyrie Irving before the Cancel Court. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980935

EP 02 | Twitter Takeover, Fear Of Crime, and Cancel Court 11/02/2022

EP 02 | Twitter Takeover, Fear Of Crime, and Cancel Court Today on Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss Twitter’s future under the command of Elon Musk and the politics of crime statistics, then they issue a ruling on whether former New York Times Op-Ed page editor James Bennet was canceled or not. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980940

EP 01 | Herschel Walker, Queer Labeling, and Republican Racism 10/26/2022

EP 01 | Herschel Walker, Queer Labeling, and Republican Racism Today, on the launch episode of Not Even Mad, hosts Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick discuss the candidacies of Kari Lake and Herschel Walker, ponder the label “queer,” and ask if present day Republicanism is inextricably racist. /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980945

Not Even Mad Trailer 10/21/2022

Not Even Mad Trailer Not Even Mad is a weekly 1-hour podcast dedicated to joyful disagreement. The 3 hosts: Mike Pesca, Virginia Heffernan, and Jamie Kirchick address issues from different political perspectives, but they wear their ideologies loosely and are just as likely to disagree with established doctrine as they are with each other. Mike conceived this podcast as a remedy to other news and opinion shows that offer only agreeable dialogue among hosts and guests. There are no shows which offer well-rounded, informed discu /episode/index/show/dd953db1-df47-43cc-8647-579752c4103f/id/36980950

Not Even Mad

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