The SelfWork Podcast

I'm Dr. Margaret, a psychologist for over 25 years and the author of Perfectly Hidden Depression. I created The SelfWork Podcast in 2016 to explain mental health treatment, and to give you the chance to consider therapy without thinking it's weird or somehow suggests you can't "fix" your own problems. My team is so honored that five years later, SelfWork has earned nearly 3.5 million downloads! Each episode features the popular listener question. And, once a month, you’ll hear a “You Get the Gist” segment - a five minute run-down of a current topic - as well as an interview with an outstanding guest author or expert, adding to the wide diversity of topics listeners so appreciate. Regularly rated as one of the top mental health/depression podcasts out there, I keep it short and casual - and I'd love to hear from you. Please join me.

382 SelfWork: The Many Gifts of Fear 02/23/2024

382 SelfWork: The Many Gifts of Fear I remember my dad telling me that the main thing he feared in life was to have a heart attack when he was still young. His dad had had that happen and it killed him when my father was only a teenager. My dad, when I was 16, had a heart attack. It didn’t kill him but I so remember the look in his eyes, one of acceptance but also one of demoralization. He lived until his early 80’s but his life changed – and thus our family’s life changed due to that event. Today we’re going to be talking about coping with fear, its difference from anxiety, and the unexpected gifts it has to offer. I’ll offer several stories of people I’ve seen and what helped them begin to cope with their fear, whether it’s fear of failure, fear of being away from family, fear like in a phobia, fears of public speaking (one of the most common), fear of death. The range of fear we can feel is immense – but in this episode, we’ll focus on some of the positive aspects of fear. The listener voicemail is from a listener who watched my YouTube video with Lewis Howes as well as seeing my and being a part of some FB Lives that I was doing at the time. What he noticed was that I seemed “different” during the interview than I did in the FB Live session… and he’d learned something positive from that. So we’ll feature his comments a bit later! Vital Links: Excellent article by Carey Rossi on in the Washington Post Get your SelfWork merch Advertiser’s Links: Have you been putting off getting help? It's 2024, and BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/30067283

381 SelfWork: How to Talk About Your Depression 02/16/2024

381 SelfWork: How to Talk About Your Depression I was honored to offer a TEDx talk this past year in Boca Raton, Florida. It's entitled and in it, I describe clients I've seen who'd never have seemed depressed to anyone around them. Two in particular are featured: one tried to take her life; the other came in well before that happened, but admitted he'd also had thoughts about doing the same. Having thoughts about wishing for the end of your life is much more common than many people realize—and we, as a culture, need to talk about those thoughts with one another much more transparently. Without judgment. It's also imperative that those with an intent to die by suicide should get the help they desperately need. Yet the distinction between having thoughts about it and having a suicidal plan to carry it out is vital to understand. The first is a conversation; the second requires immediate action by whatever mental health provider or family member is told. But if you don't feel safe to reveal such thoughts, how are those conversations ever going to happen? And that's what this episode is all about - how to talk about your depression. The listener email is from a woman in Poland who's choosing to estrange herself from her abusive father; trust is earned not given, and there are certainly times when deciding that having no relationship - or estrangement - is the best way to protect yourself. If you or someone you love is contemplating suicide, seek help immediately. For help 24/7, dial 988 for the , or reach out to the by texting TALK to 741741. To find a therapist near you, visit the ZAZZLE LINK!!! NEW SELFWORK PRODUCTS! NEW PRODUCTS! Support SelfWork and Click Vital Links! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29978593

380 SelfWork: How to Get to Forgiveness - Through Anger and Empathy 02/09/2024

380 SelfWork: How to Get to Forgiveness - Through Anger and Empathy I’ve stayed away from the topic of forgiveness here on SelfWork. Why? Because the word itself means very different things to different people – especially due to your culture or religious belief. But this week, I received an email from a listener that was so poignant AND was about forgiveness, that I’ve decided to talk about it, I've learned that there are emotions that are are important to acknowledge and work through in order to “get” to forgiveness. What are those emotions? Anger. And empathy. Let me say first… forgiveness isn’t an emotion. It’s a decision. A decision based on your beliefs, yes. But also based on information and emotional processing. And forgiveness doesn’t mean returning to or trying to be okay with abuse or manipulation. So today once again, thank you to this listener for allowing us into her life in such a meaningful way. And I invite all of you to do the same – email me at . Vital Links: on anger and forgiveness. Advertiser’s Links: Have you been putting off getting help? It's 2024, and BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29859083

379 SelfWork: What's the Better Way of Saying "My Feelings Are Hurt"? 02/02/2024

378 SelfWork: Tina Turner Takes A Seat: How to Accept Change In Your Family 01/26/2024

378 SelfWork: Tina Turner Takes A Seat: How to Accept Change In Your Family I’ve pulled what is the most downloaded episode of SelfWork’s history today because I've had to step off the stage again in my work to allow my body and mind to heal. Two weeks ago, I was in a huge hurry, bounding down my staircase, talking to my husband over my shoulder, in my clumsy Uggs boots – and I managed to pull off a head over heels tumble down the steps, eight or nine of them – and landed on a slate floor. Broken collarbone, mild concussion, and so many bumps and bruises... we won’t even go there. I’m doing okay. Having some nightmares – which I suspected I would. My body is healing. My husband has been incredible. But I obviously got way behind – and so today I turn to Tina Turner who died this past year for a little inspiration for all of you. This episode is about a night in my own life, when I realized that I needed to take a different role in my family. It’s what happens in healthy families. The change felt odd. But I realize now that it was the beginning of what should have been and needed to be. I think I love this concept so much because it uses a stage analogy. Roles change in families. And accepting those changes is part of being healthy in your own role, both on your own stage and the stage of your family. Advertiser’s Links: Have you been putting off getting help? It's 2024, and BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29647353

377 SelfWork: Recognizing When Worry and "What If" Questions Paralyze You 01/19/2024

377 SelfWork: Recognizing When Worry and "What If" Questions Paralyze You So many of us are living "what if" lives, meaning that we're not looking at the present and for opportunities that might be right in front of us. Instead we're worrying about the "what ifs" or "what if nots" of the world. And that can keep you in a constant state a perpetual indecisiveness. Of course, foggy thinking is a part of depression and worry is typically a huge part of anxiety. So we'll weave all that together on this episode of SelfWork. Our SpeakPipe voicemail for today is also about anxiety; she's talking about anticipatory anxiety as she stutters and experiences fear of ridicule because of that. Understandably. So, I'm going to include her excellent question in our discussion of anxiety. Vital Links: - a book of poetry by Rudy Francisco Link to Advertisers’ Links: We have a brand new sponsor of SelfWork – moonbird. What is it? It’s the world’s first, tactile breathing coach designed to fit in the palm of your hand. To try it yourself, click and use the code SELFWORK! Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29550498

376 SelfWork: Three Unexpected Facets of Grief 01/12/2024

376 SelfWork: Three Unexpected Facets of Grief Norman Lear is someone whose work, talent, and creativity I’ve admired for a long time. I've used an interview that he gave before he died as my inspiration for this episode, when he said about his own mortality, "It's not the going... it's the leaving that's hard." So today on SW, we’re going to focus on endings and grieving and three facets of grief that may be surprising: When grief is harder the second year and facing the future is hard When your grief means that you fear risking loving again When grief is characterized by "counterfactuals" - "what if's" for example - that keep you paralyzed and living the same life you did when the deceased was alive Our Speakpipe voicemail today is from a daughter who’s looking for answers for her mom – after her mother has moved in with her own mother (the listener’s grandmother). “She feels a heavy energy…”. And asks how I can help… Vital Links: “The reality is that you will grieve forever. You will not ‘get over’ the loss of a loved one; you will learn to live with it. You will heal and you will rebuild yourself around the loss you have suffered. You will be whole again but you will never be the same. Nor should you be the same nor would you want to.” ― Elizabeth Kubler-Ross and David Kessler Advertiser’s Links: Have you been putting off getting help? It's 2024, and BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! . /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29445608

375 SelfWork: Knowing You're 'Mom Enough": A Conversation with Author Rachel Marie Martin 01/05/2024

375 SelfWork: Knowing You're 'Mom Enough": A Conversation with Author Rachel Marie Martin When I heard the name of the book my SelfWork guest - Rachel Marie Martin - has written, I knew I wanted her on the show. What's the title? (Dexterity, September 26, 2023). In it you'll find greatly affirming letters written for moms at various stages of motherhood, from the melancholic to the "tear your hair out" to the poignant. Mom enough. It reminded me of an early psychological researcher, Winnicott, who was the first guy to stop blaming moms for all their children's psychological problems. He called it, "the good enough mother." And I know that's what I tried to be. Good enough. A Rachel is also the founder of the popular social media community FindingJoy.net, as well as an author and host of the very popular I loved having her on SelfWork - and I know you'll enjoy her thoughts about everything about motherhood. And realizing just how hard it is. Advertiser's Link: Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Vital Links: You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29347138

374 SelfWork: How to Stop Chasing The Next Best Thing: Moving from FOMO to JOMO 12/29/2023

374 SelfWork: How to Stop Chasing The Next Best Thing: Moving from FOMO to JOMO You’re getting back (or will be soon) to the office or to work or school.. and you start hearing about what everyone else did over the holidays. Maybe you’ve already seen stuff on social media that seems to tell their story. Maybe you’ve scrolled Instagram reels or watched hilarious TikToks. Your own life may shrink in comparison - especially if you're living in fear. That's the topic for today. How to confront your fear of missing out (FOMO) or how to stop chasing the "next best thing" and instead, to live in joy (JOMO) or at least contentment. Here's Lauren Cook's and Dr. Cathy Sullivan Windt's definition of JOMO: "JOMO is the satisfaction one feels in the current moment, with accompanying acceptance of what one doesn’t have in that moment.” (their article is linked below...). Vital Links: An earlier SelfWork episode on FOMO Advertiser’s Links: Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Have you been putting off getting help? It's 2024, and BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29264518

373 SelfWork: What's Inner Child Work? And Why Do It? 12/22/2023

373 SelfWork: What's Inner Child Work? And Why Do It? Today we’re going to focus on how the inner child model of therapy has been used and what exactly does it mean. Simply put (which to me is always the best way), how much does a client realize and connect with the idea that their past is influencing their present. I’ll offer a story about how that connection is made in therapy if it has not been so far. It’s definitely something that many struggle with – as they battle the belief that what happened years ago might be impacting who they think of themselves now. The listener voicemail for today is one I somehow missed last year – and I apologize for that! Because it’s an excellent comment: How do therapists experience their own struggles with what the listener called “moral injury,” compassion fatigue and burnout? I’ll look forward to talking about my own struggles and way of trying to achieve, or I should say maintain, my own stability as a therapist. Advertisers' Links: We have a brand new sponsor of SelfWork - moonbird. What is it? It's the world’s first, tactile breathing coach designed to fit in the palm of your hand. To try it yourself, click and use the code SELFWORK! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! Vital Links: on inner child work You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29189358

372 SelfWork: Getting Out of Your Comfort Zone: A Conversation with the "Failfluencer" Erin Diehl 12/15/2023

372 SelfWork: Getting Out of Your Comfort Zone: A Conversation with the "Failfluencer" Erin Diehl I've never laughed harder than in this interview with the self-proclaimed "failfluencer" Erin Diehl! Erin is a Top 1% podcast host, Founder & CEO of and one of the most electric keynote speakers in the world, using her work as an improvisational actor to teach you and me how our bodies are trying to give us messages about the healing that needs to happen. She's been on global stages with companies like Amazon, LinkedIn, and The Obama Foundation. As a graduate from Clemson University, a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional, and a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago--including The Second City, Erin can speak to anything from how every day of your life is an "improv scene" to the moment she discovered her chronic back pain was a result of unresolved emotional trauma. Advertiser's Link: Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Vital Links: You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/29087748

371 SelfWork: Hopelessness and Helplessness: When Depression Seems Impossible to Heal 12/08/2023

371 SelfWork: Hopelessness and Helplessness: When Depression Seems Impossible to Heal I received an email from one of you that saddened me. It opened with, “Listening to today’s podcast has left me feeling more hopeless than ever.” Hopelessness. Feeling despair. And its counterpart – helplessness, which is believing that nothing can be done to prevent what’s happening - are two of the worst feelings of depression, and two of the ones non-depressed people often can’t seem to understand. Maybe even my own mantra that I repeat in almost every episode, “Look for what you can do about," for those who are fighting these two demons – sounds like I’m skimming the surface of deeper depressions and not talking about the heavy burden and darkness that you might feel. Since I’ll be using much of this one listener’s email, we won’t feature another for today. I promise you this listener’s life holds much to be understood, and to have compassion for. She did say toward the end, “I felt the need to write this. Much of it has never seen the light of day. Perhaps that alone might help? I can only hope that featuring her email might help as well. Advertisers' Links: We have a brand new sponsor of SelfWork - moonbird. What is it? It's the world’s first, tactile breathing coach designed to fit in the palm of your hand. To try it yourself, click and use the code SELFWORK! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! Vital Links: You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28977913

370 SelfWork: Finding Resilience: Can You Learn to Enjoy Life After Tremendous Loss? 12/01/2023

370 SelfWork: Finding Resilience: Can You Learn to Enjoy Life After Tremendous Loss? One of the reasons why many people suffer during the so-called “holiday” season is because it’s the first - or one more of many holidays - that they’re actively grieving a loved one’s death within the last year or even farther away – and they cannot seem to work through their grief enough to want to step back into life. Into living this moment that’s right before them. I tuned into a this week that discussed a recently researched concept of grief in a very personal way, as resilience researcher Lucy Hone told the story of her own nightmare - the death of one of her children. So, I wanted to pass her ideas on to you – as you might be one of those people who are struggling with grief – and not knowing how to get out from under its shadow. Our listener email is a from a listener who says he’s been diagnosed with what’s called “schizoaffective disorder” – and wonders if I know much about – or can help him with – intrusive thoughts that he can’t seem to rid himself of. Advertiser's Link: Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Vital Links: , by Lucy Hone, 2017 My own You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28877023

369 SelfWork: Dumps, Humps, and Slumps: Are They Depression? 11/24/2023

369 SelfWork: Dumps, Humps, and Slumps: Are They Depression? Here at SelfWork, we focus on what you can do about it - right? I preach and I encourage all of you to figure out the one thing that’s in your control and make a change that will help you with your sense of wellness. Like all of you, I laugh at memes and try to take myself with a grain of salt. Usually, I think I’m pretty good at this… but not the last few weeks. I’ve been in the dumps. So today we're going to spend some time talking about being in the dumps and the slumps - as well as getting over the humps (the murky middle of a journey where you can lose sight of hope. And as always, "what you can do about it." Our Speakpipe voicemail of the week is from a woman who checks in with my website and left a message there – which all of you can do at drmargaretrutherford.com! Love her question about whether to “let someone with apparent BPD” know that you’ve learned what they did in a fit of rage. It feels like you’re keeping a secret.. and a powerful one… But what makes it so powerful? That’s where my answer will lie – how does this voicemailer want to use that power? Advertisers' Links: We have a brand new sponsor of SelfWork - moonbird. What is it? It's the world’s first, tactile breathing coach designed to fit in the palm of your hand, which provides real-time biofeedback. Created for those grappling with stress, anxiety, autism, or insomnia, it's a compact device that aids users through soothing breathwork exercises. For their special Black Friday offer of 20% off (November 20-27th, 2023) or 10% off after Black Friday, click and use the code SELFWORK! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28760433

SelfWork YGTG: A New SelfWork Sponsor and Sensational Black Friday Week Double Discount Offer! 11/19/2023

368 SelfWork: What's Glowing Up, Bed Rotting, and Lucky Girl Syndrome? A Conversation with Social Media Expert Dr. Sanam Hafeez 11/17/2023

368 SelfWork: What's Glowing Up, Bed Rotting, and Lucky Girl Syndrome? A Conversation with Social Media Expert Dr. Sanam Hafeez As TikTok has taken over the world of social media throughout the last few years, many psychological trends have become increasingly popular, and could be more harmful than helpful. Glowing up, bed rotting, and lucky girl syndrome are only three of the harmful effects the so-called "psychological help" on TikTok and other outlets can bring - and we have a fantastic expert here today on SelfWork to discuss them. Dr. Sanam Hafeez is an NYC based licensed clinical psychologist, and the founder and Clinical Director of Comprehensive Consultation Psychological Services, P.C. a neuropsychological, developmental and educational center in Manhattan and Queens. Dr. Hafeez masterfully applies her years of experience connecting psychological implications to address some of today’s common issues such as body image, social media addiction, relationships, workplace stress, parenting and psychopathology, and often shares her credible expertise to various news outlets in New York City and frequently appears on CNN and Dr.Oz. Advertisers' Links: Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28672808

367 SelfWork: Putting Self-Reflection Into Action: Five Questions to Answer 11/10/2023

367 SelfWork: Putting Self-Reflection Into Action: Five Questions to Answer Out of curiosity, l listened to an older voicemail this week. It was from "this time last year." How many times have you said that to yourself, "This time last year I... " Maybe the end of that sentence is joyful. Maybe it's sad. But it's an exercise in self-reflection - which is the topic for today's SelfWork. This particular question is a sort of time travel in your own head and heart. Self-reflection isn't about over self-involvement: it’s what we humans can do to get perspective and learn ways you might be getting in your own way of creating the life you want. Show you how to move out of depression or anxiety. And when you pair self-reflection with action - it can lead to healing change. So here are the self-reflective questions that lead to action that we’re looking at today. What am I needing to still learn? What have I learned? When do I recognize that I need to put something new in place? Where was I last year at this time? What did I learn? What did I find out about myself? Why am I doing what I’m doing? What’s my purpose? How do I want to put the answers to these questions in place in very real ways in my life? Advertisers' Link: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28577693

366 SelfWork: The Risk of Self-Transparency: What Are You Afraid People Will See? 11/03/2023

366 SelfWork: The Risk of Self-Transparency: What Are You Afraid People Will See? Today we’re focusing on your choice to be transparent and how it can be important in your mental health. Self-transparency. Think of it like this – if you put a lot of energy into covering up – into not allowing anyone to see your own struggles. There can be repercussions from that. You’re living in fear of being known – of being seen. What are you so afraid of people seeing? And what would have to happen for you to risk transparency? The SpeakPipe voicemail is from a listener who wants to know how she can determine her own diagnosis, if it’s CPTSD or BPD. She’s worried about her own kids – so I’ll do my best to answer her. But let’s just say – anyone who’s concerned about their impact on their children already may have my vote as NOT having BPD – but we’ll talk more about that dynamic. Advertisers' Links: Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28496810

365 SelfWork: Healthy Narcissism, Self-Confidence, and the Powerful Role of Humility 10/27/2023

365 SelfWork: Healthy Narcissism, Self-Confidence, and the Powerful Role of Humility Talking about narcissism has become somewhat of a national pastime in the US at least. Everyone is calling someone who used them or who they felt manipulated by a narcissist. And perhaps they are – or were. But what exactly is narcissism and how is it different than healthy self-esteem? Is it on a spectrum or can it ever be helpful? Is it necessary to have a bit of it to have self-confidence? And how does humility play into this? Or is "humility" weakness? I’ve seen some dramatic examples in the last few years of things going wrong for my clients– when the focus on self and the need to be and look successful has led to a huge escalation of depression (sometimes silent as in perfectly hidden depression) due to way over-the-top feelings of failure – rather than allowing that to be an example of making a mistake and learning from it. Or of life handing you some hard, even cruel, or tragic experiences. In our self-focused world, this kind of acceptance can be punitively described as accepting failure - instead of what humility truly is – recognizing your true place in the universe, not buying in too much to your successes, your desires, or your failings. To me, humility is the moderating factor to prevent narcissism from becoming destructive, and instead promotes self-esteem and self-love rather than self-worship or self-centeredness. The listener email today is about finding out about a spouse’s affair with a work colleague and how to discuss whether the spouse should leave that workplace or not. It’s a sticky discussion and one I’ve witnessed many times in my office as a couple tries to balance regaining trust with other factors, like financial stability. People have tried some very unhealthy solutions which’ve only created more distrust, not less. Regaining and rebuilding trust can be a full-time job, but months of hypervigilance isn’t going to be helpful. Vital Links: on healthy versus unhealthy narcissism Article by Dr. Dimitrios Tsatiris https://drmargaretrutherford.com/005-selfwork-after-an-affair-the-essential-steps-of-regaining-trust/ Advertisers' Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product! Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28435628

364 SelfWork: Compatibility vs Commitment, Facing Constant Anger, and Feeling Abandoned: Your Questions My Thoughts 10/20/2023

364 SelfWork: Compatibility vs Commitment, Facing Constant Anger, and Feeling Abandoned: Your Questions My Thoughts I could think of no better way to continue this 8th season of SelfWork than to feature your questions and comments! Whether you communicate through email or voicemail or through my website contact form, YOU are the lifeblood of SelfWork. Yes, it’s true I often use what my own clients either have gone through or are going through as my “inspiration” for these episodes. Yet hearing from you means so much. It’s like turning up the lights in an auditorium so the person speaking can see the audience – it helps me see you. And your three topics for today are compatibility vs commitment, facing constant anger from your partner, and feeling abandoned by friends. So thank you! All of these listeners are dealing with situations that have been ongoing for months if not years – so even though they don’t necessarily say “I’m depressed,” yet these kinds of relationship problems that drag on and on can certainly be a set-up for symptoms of depression, like hopelessness or helplessness. All three are about boundaries – the difficulty of setting them, of maintaining them, and when you get hurt by or don't understand them. Advertisers' Links: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28368989

363 SelfWork: Ditching the 7 Year Itch (And Itching to Celebrate 7 Years of SW!) 10/13/2023

363 SelfWork: Ditching the 7 Year Itch (And Itching to Celebrate 7 Years of SW!) Come celebrate with us! SelfWork is having its seventh anniversary so we're celebrating by bringing on the whole team! Please join me, Christine Mathias and John Crowley for a completely spontaneous conversation (which you'll be able to tell...) about our topic for today - the seven year itch! (Sounds appropriate don't you think?) I'm offering seven ideas (keeping in the swing of things): three on how to avoid the itch altogether; one to use if you feel the itch to leave or to not act out what you know is best; and three more to help you keep on keeping on, growing in trust and intimacy with one another. I'll announce the winner of Marriage Is Not for Chickens as well! Advertiser's Link: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! Research Links! on the seven year itch oday about seven year itch You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast. Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it’s available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28300640

362 SelfWork: How to Recognize Inattentive ADHD: A Conversation with IADHD Author Cynthia Hammer 10/06/2023

362 SelfWork: How to Recognize Inattentive ADHD: A Conversation with IADHD Author Cynthia Hammer October is ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) Awareness Month. SelfWork has never focused on this very difficult disorder, often affecting children who are what's now called "neurodivergent" but in the past, have been unjustly stigmatized as "lazy, stupid, or crazy" which was finally described in 2006 for the actual processing difference it is in the now classic book, But ADHD contains hyperactivity as a symptom of the disorder; what used to be called ADD, or simple attention deficit disorder, is now labeled as inattentive ADHD. And these kids (and adults) often slip through the cracks of adult recognition, because they're seen more as daydreamers, or unmotivated, not causing the classroom behavioral problems that hyperactive kids can seem to create. But they still can truly struggle and... go unseen. Cynthia Hammer has a new book, , where she offers her own hard-earned wisdom of living with IADHD. I found the book at times chilling because of the dangers she could put herself in, poignant as she lives through tremendous sorrow of the accidental death of her first child, and hopeful, as - at almost age 80 - she shares what she's learned about surviving and thriving. Advertiser's Link: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28236005

361 SelfWork (Second Time Around): Your Amazing Mind/Body Connection 09/29/2023

361 SelfWork (Second Time Around): Your Amazing Mind/Body Connection John Crowley, my audio engineer/editor extraordinaire, chose this episode this week as I'm getting back from vacation. My gratitude to him for many, many things! But he gives you some info on what this episode's message was for him and what I hoped it would be. Today we’re focusing on the mind/body interaction – how your brain processes physical and emotional pain – as well as a brief touch on what are called somatic disorders. But what I want to focus on how your body might be expressing the pain or trauma you’ve experienced in your life. It's an intriguing topic and one I hope you'll enjoy. The listener voicemail is from a daughter who believes her mom may have something to do with her being ill and not knowing how to leave or get other help. This could be something called “munchausen’s syndrome by proxy” which is a very complicated dynamic – but it might also be that this daughter’s mom has been part of her trauma. I’ll offer suggestions for both.. Advertisers' Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product! Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Scads of Important Links! A … discussing how your brain processes physical and social pain. (SelfWork Podcast) (SelfWork) An article on somatic disorders found on I don’t have time sadly to discuss all of it... that you can try to "get at" your body's holding on to trauma. And encouraging it to let go. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28168133

360 SelfWork (Second Time Around): 15 Questions to Ask Your Potential Therapist 09/22/2023

360 SelfWork (Second Time Around): 15 Questions to Ask Your Potential Therapist I have such a fantastic production team in Christine Mathias, my communications manager, and John Crowley, my audio engineer. And so I want to thank them for pulling the next two episodes off for me while I'm on vacation with my family! This was Christine's choice as one of her favorites, and she introduces this week's episode in this "second time around" listen. The focus is on how to interview a potential therapist, a task which stop SO many people from even trying therapy. I agree with her about how important this info is. So I hope - actually we hope - it's great info for you. The listener voicemail today is from a woman who’d read one of articles on challenging or working through the shame that you've carried around, quite without rational or reason, because you felt invisible to others, and thought whatever happened to cause your shame was somehow your 'fault.' Advertisers' Links: Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Vital Links: The , My first An explaining licensure and training differences between therapists My The that you can adopt and play You can hear more of many other topics by listening to my podcast, . Subscribe to and receive one weekly newsletter including my weekly blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available and you can order Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And here's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28104659

359 SelfWork: Talking About Sibling Sexual Abuse: A Conversation with TEDx Speaker Jane Epstein 09/15/2023

359 SelfWork: Talking About Sibling Sexual Abuse: A Conversation with TEDx Speaker Jane Epstein Trigger Warning: We're talking about sibling sexual abuse in this episode. The links for sexual abuse hotlines are below. I’ve had so many guest interviews on SelfWork – really wonderful researchers and authors, therapists and thinkers. But there’s something very special about someone coming forth to share their message when they’ve learned something the hard way – and they want to help others either through what they went through or to avoid it in the first place. Jane Epstein is this kind of person. She tells her story in this episode about how her life was dramatically impacted by her brother sexually abusing her. It took her years to put the pieces of the puzzle together, making connections between past and present that were difficult and painful to make – but also were freeing. Many of you who are listening may have experienced something similar – and have tried, as Jane did for many years – to sweep it under the rug. A stepsister or stepbrother, an older sibling – and you’ve blamed yourself. Or felt a shameful heaviness. Please know, you are far, far from alone. Advertiser's Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product! Vital Links: : Great sexual abuse : The 501-3-C non-profit - Jane's (and others) website for support International I want to thank Jane and all other survivors of abuse who’ve come forward. It takes tremendous courage. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast. Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it’s available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript: Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford, and we have a wonderful guest for you today. I wanna make sure you hear however, that this episode does discuss sexual abuse, sibling sexual abuse. So please heed a trigger warning and we'll have sexual abuse hotline suggestions in the show notes. You know, I've had so many guest interviews here on Selfwork, really wonderful researchers and authors, therapists and thinkers. But there's something very special about someone coming forth to share their message when they've learned something the hard way, and they want to help others, either through what they went through or to avoid the experience in the first place. Jane Epstein is this kind of person. She tells her story in this episode about how her life was dramatically impacted by her brother sexually abusing her for a six year period of time. It took her years to put the pieces of the puzzle together, making connections between past and present that were difficult and painful to make, but also were very freeing. And I want to quickly say, many of you who are listening may have experienced something similar and have tried, as Jane did for many years, to sweep the memories under the rug. Maybe it was a stepsister or stepbrother, an older sibling, and you've blamed yourself or felt a shameful heaviness. So that's what we're talking about today on SelfWork. But before we continue, let's hear a brief message from Magnesium Breakthrough. You wanna give their product a try if you have too many sleepless nights, maybe from your own troubling memories. Magnesium Breakthrough Ad: I hope you truly enjoyed some time with family and friends this summer and got to take a break from the daily grind and enjoy your life. Perhaps you've indulged a bit on ice cream to beat the heat, or a margarita or two. Gosh, lots of indulgence may become the norm, but now kids are back in school and it's time to get back on track. If you struggle to return to your health routine, there are three major things to prioritize healthy eating, exercise, and above all, quality sleep. 'cause sleep is the key to your body's rejuvenation and repair process. It actually controls hunger and weight loss hormones, boosts energy levels, and it impacts countless other functions. That's why I take Magnesium daily, but not any supplement. I got Magnesium Breakthrough because it's just better. It's made by BIOptimizers and I, I highly recommend it. It has seven forms of magnesium designed help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. And guess what? If you get more sleep, you're gonna find out that your healthy eating and exercise may be a little easier to do. So visit magbreakthrough.com/selfwork. Don't forget to enter Code SelfWork10 for 10% off any order. Once again, it's magbreakthrough.com/selfwork. Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret I should tell you before we begin, how I met Jane Epstein. She actually did a TEDx talk for Boca Ratone and I watched it and we had the same coach. That's sort of a neat bond for us to share, but we talk about our TEDx experience a little bit here too. So please listen to this episode. Please click the link to Jane's TEDx talk, which will be in the show notes, or go to my website, drmargaretrutherford.com, and you can find it there. Another website that Jane has told me about, which is really wonderful is www.siblingsexualtrauma.com. But just know you are far, far from alone. Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret I couldn't be happier to have you on SelfWork Jane, because I have listened to your TEDx many, many times. And we shared a coach, which was kind of fun. And so I, I looked at yours as to say, well, what would it be like to to work with Brian Miller? But I personally today wanna hear more about your story. About one of my questions as I looked at it is, how did you talk to your family about it? Or, or did you say, "No, it's my story to tell." Just what and what made you, what brought you to TEDx in the first place? Speaker 2: Jane Epstein First of all, thank you for having me on your show. Of course, I, I have listened to a couple of your podcasts and I, I've listened to you and I've listened to your TEDx and you are very trauma informed, and you are very kind and compassionate and lots of wisdom. So I appreciate being on your puck. Thank you. First thing, what brought me to TEDx and how did I tell my family? Me, I don't remember the exact timeline, but I started Googling sibling sexual abuse and trauma, and I couldn't find anything on it. And I, I had this feeling that I wasn't the only one. I thought, I can't be the only person. 'cause I found two outdated articles that stated that it's a silent epidemic, right? I was, okay, well, if it's an epidemic, I'm clearly not the only six year old little girl. My my sibling who was 12 at the time, is not the only 12 year old child who, who an abused a sibling. So I just was called to start talking about it, and I reached out to my sibling. It was very awkward. And I expressed to him, I said, "I feel called to start talking about this and sharing my story because no one's talking about it. And it's a silent epidemic." And he said he understood and that he would support me in whatever way he can. Speaker 1: I get chill bumps when I hear that. Speaker 2: Yes. He, I'm, I have a very unique situation. I've been able to forgive him. I can call him and ask him questions. I'll say, I had this memory, is this true? And he's very careful to not give me more information. Mm-hmm. , because he knows I have enough to work with. I don't need any more triggers. I don't need any more memories. Mm-hmm. . And I also think that because of what happened between us, that he's hypervigilant and that he's got his eyes on other families, and that he sees that there could potentially be problems and sexual abuse occurring. And because sibling sexual abuse is so prevalent and not talked about, I think we are seeing things and not always able to put our finger on it. In Speaker 1: Your talk, you quote in your talk, you quote statistics like it's three to five times - It happens three to five times more than father daughter abuse, which is incredible. It starts earlier. It lasts for years often. So you're right. And it, it is something I, I remember I wrote a post on sex, uh, sibling sexual abuse. I got all kinds of comments. So yes, you're exactly right. Speaker 2: Yes. I listened to your podcast on the sibling sexual abuse, and it was very well done. Thank you. You're, you're very informed, . Thank you. So I started talking to my brother and I said, I need, we need to talk about this. We need to, we need to do this. Um, or I need to do this. And I had these great grand visions because there's so much work that needs to be done. Well, it's a marathon on its front . So I started pitching the media, it, my emails were either not opened or not responded to. One response was, "Well, we haven't ever talked about that, but if we do, we'll reach out". And I'm thinking, you're not gonna talk about it. So I come across a video with Brian Kenneth Miller, our joint TEDx coach. And he had gone through, what is a TEDx? What is a TEDx? Speaker 2: What is not a TEDx? Because I thought, "Well, I'll go on TEDx and I'll share my story and I'll raise the alarm bell." Well, TEDx is not sharing your story, but I thought, well, I'll book a call with him anyways. So I booked a call with him and he said, "A tough topic, but I think we could come up with something." So we started talking about it, and it is, it's a tough topic, it's a dark topic. And Brian was never told me this, but he was concerned, how am I gonna get on the TEDx stage? Mm-hmm. . So we started going down the path of how to support someone who's been through a traumatic event. And I was gonna slide sibling sexual abuse and trauma through the back door. Okay. Which would not have been a great talk because there's lots of how to support people who've gone through trauma. It would not have been Speaker 1: Not unique, Speaker 2: Impactful, not unique, not impactful. It might have gotten on stage, but not likely. So then I heard from TEDx Boca Raton, and I sat down with Eric and Eric said, look, you know, we like your idea, but we really wanna know more about the sibling sexual abuse and trauma. Can you talk just about that? And I said, yes, I can. And I pointed to all my research books and I started spouting off all these statistics. And he said, "Great, that's what we want you to talk about". And I said, excellent. And that's how it all started. And I didn't mean to be on the TEDx, it's just that's kind of where I landed. And I, you know, once I was approved and started practicing my TEDx talk, I started having all the anxieties of speaking in front of a large crowd, but practiced and practiced and practiced. And the day I got on that stage, I just, they basically, there's something magical about that red dot. Maybe it's true. I got on that red dot and all was okay. But I was shaking.. Speaker 1: Oh, I was perfectly calm. . Speaker 2: It's amazing what you can make, even though the camera, you know, the camera shows all, oh, it was done. Well, you did aYou did a really wonderful job. Speaker 1: And, and one of the things that I thought was so powerful about it, again, you've already mentioned it, was that your, your brother had, he had apologized, but then he had, you had written to him years later and he said, "Oh gosh, I didn't know this was still a thing for you." So I'm sure this solidified for him, again, the seriousness of the trauma, the impact that that had had on you, uh, and that it had, it had, uh, impacted your choices as an adult. And when you left home and it was, it was a elegant story. Well, it's, call it elegant is missing the point of that. It was very painfully uh, impactful. So, um, yeah, I mean, you made, you made some career choices that were obviously you trying to get back in control, but it didn't work. Speaker 2: Right. Right. And I'm not sure he understands the full impact. We've never sat down and, and talked about it. It's, it's like, it's a, it's a strained relationship. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: Um, but it, it's friendly enough in that I can reach out to him. I haven't reached out to him for a while, but I would can reach out to him and say, "I had this memory, is this a false memory? Is this true? Is this what happened?" And he is very careful the way he answers it, because he does, doesn't wanna trigger me and give me more memories. 'cause I have plenty to work with. Sure. He understands why I'm so public. He's not exactly thrilled about it. But, you know, I was in the People magazine and I had to run that by him. And, and the pictures, I ran the pictures by him. And that, it's hard. Uh, it's hard because it's putting him in a, in a, in a tough situation. But in my situation, in my story, my sibling is not a monster. My sibling is not a pedophile. My sibling caused a lot of harm, caused a lot of damage, caused a lot of trauma. And I, I have forgiven him. Um, and I'm not telling every survivor, you have to forgive to heal. That is not my, that's not my thing. It's just that's what worked for me. And it started by forgiving the little girl first, my little girl myself. And then I was able to forgive him. Speaker 1: Well, an aspect of this that I wanted to talk to you about a little bit more was you opened the talk by saying that you were in marital work with your husband, and your therapist turned to you and said, "I, I just don't get where all this anger is coming from. It doesn't seem to fit the situation." And, and then ask the very astute question of, "Is there something that might be, is triggered by what's going on with your husband? And that's what's, that's what we're seeing". And you, did you, did you connect the dots right then? Or did it take you a while? It took a while. It was your sexual abuse that was getting somehow, maybe you can talk about that a little bit. What was getting triggered with your husband? Speaker 2: Right. Many years before, before we were in counseling, something happened in the bedroom that, that triggered a memory. And that memory would not go away. Usually memories would come and go and I could put them away. And I thought it was just two kids being curious. That's not my problem. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: I thought because I'd lost, I lost my first husband to cancer and I got remarried to my, my husband. Now I try not to use current husband 'cause he doesn't like to be the current husband. . Speaker 1: Well, my husband calls Speaker 2: Himself Speaker 1: ) . We've been married 33 years, and he calls himself my current husband. So , Speaker 2: He's a good sport then. Yeah. . Yeah. So I had thought, I knew we had two small children. He had a stressful job. I had, I was still dealing with grief. And I thought, that's why I'm angry. That's why I am upset. That's why I was not depressed in my brain. I was not depressed because no, I had survived burying my first husband, and I survived that. So there's no way I could be depressed. Speaker 1: I have a, I have a book for you to read, . I know Speaker 2: You do. I am in that category. So we eventually went to marriage counseling and I went into the marriage counseling thinking, okay, he's gonna fix my husband, gonna fix him. Well, I had work to do too, fix too, when it comes to that. So we were in counseling for five years and we really had made a lot of progress. But I was still very, very angry. And I had asked myself, I had dug down and I thought, maybe it's something inside of me. I've tried to turn over every stone that maybe there's something inside of me that needs work. Mm-hmm. . So when the marriage counselor asked that question, I thought, well, there is this. My brother sexually abused me. There's that. And I approached it as, it can't be that because I participated. Right. So who am I to be messed up over that? Speaker 2: And the counselor, I kind of describe it as the deer in the headlights look. He's kinda like trying to sit still and kind of leaning in and trying to be very calm, realizing, okay, this is a big deal. No, what happened is a big deal. Right. And that it went on and off for six years. And that No, that was a big deal. And he said, "You're gonna need to tell Steve". And I said, huh. Steve's my husband. Mm-hmm. Current husband mm-hmm. . I said, oh, no, because then he'll be able to blame all our marriage problems on me. And he said, you need to be able to tell him to protect yourself in order and to, to be able to heal. So that's how that all started. And then I started a whole new healing process. Speaker 1: It's amazing. I've told a story on, on SelfWork about a woman. Um, and I already put a cautionary warning before we started. So great. Uh, a woman came in to see me who, um, it was the local community center. I literally had just gotten to Arkansas where I live now. And, and she said, you know, she told me about sexually abu abuse that her father had, um, had done to her. And then she, and there was this huge sense of relief. And then she came in the next week and she said, I've got something worse to tell you. So I sat back and said, all right. And she said, my dad made me do things to my brother . And she, she was a tough cowboy kind of woman. She had boots and, you know, she was farm girl. I mean, she was tough as nails. Speaker 1: And she teared up and, and we talked about it. And then she, she canceled her next appointment. And I called her and said, I'm, you've, you've shared so much with me, I'm a little concerned that you're not coming back in. Yeah. She said, well, okay, I'll come back in one more time. And she looked at me, Jane, and she said, I thought I would, I knew the look that would be on your face when I told you that I had done something to my brother. Because from her perspective, she had participated rather than being coerced herself. You know, it was, it was her doing something to her brother. And I said, you know, so, and she said, but the look on your face was not condemnation. It was, well, of course you did what your dad told you to do. Right. Um, and then there are other instances I I, uh, I mentioned before when we were just talking about a, a little girl who wore a red nightgown for her brother. Um, because she, she said, I enjoyed the attention. I knew something was wrong, but I, I didn't get any attention from anybody except from him. And so it was very complex and very complicated. But that whole idea of participation is so, um, is, is so confounding for any victim of sexual abuse, but especially with sibling sexual abuse, I think. Speaker 2: Yeah. And I, I wanna share with you that I've actually had some people who, when I, when I speak about the child who caused harm, there are situations where the child causes a lot more than harm. And I try and, and, and lower it a little bit so that parents hear me. Mm-hmm. , because if I scream your child, the pedophile or your child, the monster, your child, the perpetrator, they're not... /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28033203

SelfWork YGTG: Marriage Is Not For Chickens - A Giveaway! 09/13/2023

SelfWork YGTG: Marriage Is Not For Chickens - A Giveaway! Hello my friends! This September (2023) we're giving away two(2) copies of a little book Christine Mathias and I worked on called Marriage Is Not For Chickens. A post by the same name, when it appeared in HuffPost, earned over 200,000 views and over 50,000 shares... Wow! (Of course, I didn't get a call to be on a morning talk show... lolol) This book may take you two minutes to read because it's meant to be a gift for someone who's getting married or deciding to commit to a relationship - or maybe to someone who's having an anniversary. The photos that fit all 24 statements of "what marriage is" and "what marriage is not" were either taken by Christine or my old high school friend Deborah Strauss. The images are breath-taking, poignant, evocative, or simply "right." We're very proud of it - and hope it will give you and yours joy. So, all you have to do is leave a written review on the SelfWork page on Apple Podcasts to be included in the drawing! But I realized, you might need to hear what it's all about. So that's what today's quick YGTG (You Get The Gist) is all about! Listen in, smile, and I hope you enter the contest - so you can give it away, keep it, or have fun with it in some way or the other. Vital Links: (now with 155,000 views!) You can listen to Dr. Margaret's TEDxBocaRaton Talk on perfectly hidden depression and the Immediate need for greater transparency in talking about emotional pain and suicidal feelings. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast. Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it’s available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/28023270

358 SelfWork: What You've Been Taught About Grief May Be Wrong 09/08/2023

358 SelfWork: What You've Been Taught About Grief May Be Wrong We certainly have had – and the world has had – our fair share of reasons to grieve. Wherever you live, you felt the fear and loss of the pandemic. Add on to that, the impact of hurricanes, tornados, drought, fires, floods, war, racism, political unrest, violence… we’ve got it all - some countries more than others. But these events are also a backdrop for whatever happens in our personal lives – people who we’ve loved dying, losing a job, having to move or even to escape from where you’ve lived, developing a severe mental or physical illness or one that’s chronically debilitating, being abused… The list goes on and on. And we need to grieve. Yet, one of the ironies is that the model we’ve been taught – in a very “this is how you should be grieving” kind of way – was created to help us understand what the person dying might feel and wasn't created to describe the grief of people who are alive and grieving loss. What’s grief really like? How do the stages that Kübler-Ross help? How do they hurt? What are the effects of your culture or faith alter your experience of grief? How is the Internet changing the way we grieve? The listener email for today is from a woman whose sense of emotional stability has decreased after the death of her father – and she has no relationship with her mom. She uses the term, “I feel orphaned.” So as always, we’ll talk about what you can do about it. Before we go on, I’d like to invite you to listen and watch .. Here’s one of the many reviews… "Dr. Rutherford, what a beautiful talk. I watched it several times. We can all learn to recognize the signs and be ready to support those who might be silently struggling. This TEDx talk is a powerful reminder to be more attentive to the people around us, listen beyond the surface, and offer support without judgment." Click to listen! Advertisers Links: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! Vital Links: Article: . You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast. Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it’s available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript: Intro: This is SelfWork and I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Ruthford. I'm so glad you're here. I started this podcast almost seven years ago now to extend the walls of my practice to those of you who are already interested maybe in therapy or you were just interested in psychological stuff, to those of you who might have just been diagnosed or you're looking for some answers. And to those of you who might just be a little skeptical about the whole mental health horizon, so welcome, welcome to all of you. We certainly have had, and the world has had their fair share of reasons to grieve recently. Wherever you live, you felt the fear and loss of the pandemic. Add onto that, the impact of hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, fires, floods, war, racism, political unrest, violence - we've got it all - some countries more than others, but these events are also a backdrop for whatever happens in our personal lives, people who we've loved dying, we lose a job, we have to move or even you, you have to escape where you've lived. You develop a severe mental or physical illness or or that's chronically debilitating or someone you love does or you're being abused. The list goes on and on and we need to grieve. And yet one of the ironies, and what I want to address in today's SelfWork is that the model we've had taught to us in a very "this is how you should be grieving" kind of way, was initially met or designed to describe the stages of grief for the person who is terminally ill or dying themselves. It's Elizabeth Kübler Ross's five stages of grief. It was never meant for the people who were alive in grieving a loss. So that's what we're gonna talk about today. What's grief really like? How did the stages that Kübler Ross suggests help? How do they hurt? What are the effects of your culture or faith and how does that alter your experience of grief? How is the internet changing the way we grieve? That's an interesting kind of subject. The listener mail for today is from a woman whose sense of emotional stability has decreased after the death of her father, and she has no relationship with her mom. She uses the term, "I feel orphaned." I've heard so many people say this, so we're gonna talk about it today on SelfWork. Before we go on, I'd like to invite you to listen and watch my TEDxBocaRaton talk. Here's one of the many reviews, "Dr. Margaret Rutherford. What a beautiful talk. I watched it several times. We can all learn to recognize the signs and be ready to support those who might be silently struggling. This TEDx talk is a powerful reminder to be more attentive to the people around us. Listen beyond the surface and offer support without judgment. Together we can break mental health stigma and create a more compassionate and understanding society." So I will have the link in the show notes or you can just put in Dr. Margaret Rutherford TEDx and it'll lead you right with my YouTube. And of course, if you like it, please say you do or check that off and even leave a review. I'm beginning to get asked to speak about perfectly in depression directly because of this TEDx talk. And so that's a wonderful and very helpful way you can help me spread what I believe is a very important message. Thanks, my gratitude to y'all. Episode Elizabeth Kübler-Ross, the psychiatrist who first developed and wrote about five stages of grief, gathered her ideas from conversations with dying patients. She talked to them and she watched the grief that they go through. And yet it was snapped up by others to describe what everyone who is grieving must go through. In fact, it doesn't make a lot of sense when you think of it and it's even becomes something you should be going through, which is really ridiculous. For one thing, the stages are interactive, but somehow people have felt bad that those stages weren't part of their experience. In an article put out by McGill entitled, it's Time to Let the Five Stages of Grief Die. The author state and I quote while she was a psychiatry resident in New York, Kubler Ross realized how little attention was paid by hospital staff to terminally ill patients and how little medical knowledge there was regarding the psychological aspects besetting patients facing death. She worked extensively with terminally ill patients throughout her medical school career and continued to study and teach about such topics. She was also criticized by academic researchers for not running a real study. Instead, she used conversations with a dying as her basis for putting the stages forth and wanting medical staff to be a better attuned to what was going on with these patients. Now, what are those stages that she was describing? You may have thought I needed to know this way before now, but here we go. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. She asserted that these stages weren't rigid. You could feel or express them at any time. Denial that you were dying or that you had a serious illness might make you not seek treatment or refuse treatment. Keep how serious your illness was out of your consciousness. Anger is the second one, anger that it feels unfair that you're not ready to die, that you have more life to live. The third one is bargaining. If I can just get better, I'll never do X, Y, or Z again, or I'll start doing X, Y, or Z. Then there's depression, sadness over past choices, sadness over not having control, sadness that you're leaving the people you love, the life you've been fulfilled by and thus acceptance, realizing there's truly no more you can do. Acceptance that you won't see your grandchild born or your kid graduating from high school. Of course, how you grieve is shaped so much by the culture you live in or in the rituals, the religion you follow or that you have faith in general. Dr. Marissa Franco, who we've had here as SelfWork as a guest, she's really cool, writes in Psychology Today that research suggests that when we're helping our loved ones cope with grief, we should consider what they find. Most supportive people in the Asian and Asian American communities for example, may prefer spending time with close others without talking about their grief. While people in the European American community may want more explicit emotional support. So she's pointing out that we need to understand and be aware of how a certain person may be grieving, how their culture influences them, how their faith influences them, and what you may need or want to do to be respectful of that because that's what's important. Even with the best of intentions, you may make someone's experience of grief more difficult or if they really want that kind of support from you, they want to talk about their loved one who's gone. Then you hold back obvious emotional support and you don't wanna do that, or at least most of us don't. <laugh> actually to know what's truly helpful. You could of course ask and not assume, how would you like for me to support you? So what role does a belief in life after death have on grief? I looked at several different studies but was drawn to one whose results showed that people reporting no spiritual belief had not resolved their grief. By 14 months after the death, participants with strong spiritual beliefs resolved their grief progressively over the same period. And then people with low levels of belief showed little change in the first nine months but thereafter resolved their grief. So basically a spiritual belief seemed to increase the likelihood that you'll resolve your grief earlier and even a small bit of relief helped to resolve grief more quickly. That's important. But let me quickly say that's not necessarily been what I've seen in my own clients, and I've watched many people grieve. Because so much of what matters is the timing or the way someone died. Did you have a chance to do what's called anticipatory grieving? Allowing yourself to feel what it's going to feel like to lose someone you love, whether you got to say goodbye, whether you feel to blame or partially responsible for their death or you were told that you were responsible. Grief can often challenge your belief in some of these instances. If there's a God, then how did this happen? Now for those of you listening who say, if you believe in heaven, if you believe in life after death or if your religion is Buddhist or Hindu or whatever it is, that may of course be very comforting. I'm not saying that, but here's an example. I worked with a man years ago whose alcoholic parents had told him he was to blame for a sibling's death when he had been only a child himself. When it occurred they were inside drinking and this 10 year old boy was tasked with watching his four younger siblings and one of them got hit by a car. So obviously when you're blamed, when you have a terrible time processing your own grief, or maybe you lose contact with others who you might be grieving with, you've got to go back to college or you've got a new job or you've quickly moved to a new home. So those that you might be grieving with are no longer there. Of course, our modern technology helps with that, but still, but there's also the possibility that you are not even allowed to speak of your mom who died because your father has remarried. So many factors affect your grief, how you are encouraged to express it or how you're not allowed to do so again, faith, a certain structure of what happens after death. If you believe, that can certainly be helpful, but from my perspective at in my experience, that suddenly you just don't grieve. That's far too simplistic. Let's stop for a moment for a brief message and offer from BetterHelp where you just might turn in this kind of grieving situation or time. BetterHelp Ad I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you and you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help and if you use the code or link betterhelp.com/selfwork, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did that. Link again is betterhelp.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of surfaces. Episode Continues Sometimes when I'm looking into a topic like I did today, I realize that someone has said something born from their their own experience and expertise that I just can't say better. So when I read this Atlantic article by a grieving mother who's also a researcher, Heidi Bastian, I knew I was having that experience again. She went looking after her 38 year old son's sudden death for help. She found everything from you'll never survive This grief to the idea that there is a time period when grief will be at its strongest but will abate. I want to share this with you because it's the wisest thing I've read on my journey to bring you this episode. So I'm going to be directly quoting from Heidi Bastian's Atlantic article, and if you want to read all of it, I will have it in the show notes. So I quote, "For most people, after most deaths, grief starts to ease after a few weeks and continues to reduce. From there, there can still be tough times ahead, but in most circumstances, by the time you reach six months, you're unlikely to be in a constant state of severe grief. Although most people will experience grief when they lose someone close to them, they won't be overwhelmed by it. For roughly half the bereaved grief is mild or moderate and then subsides among those who experience high levels of grief at the outset, distress will usually begin to ease in a few weeks or months to, it's not a straight line where each day is better than the one before, but the overall level of suffering does go down over time" "Some bereaved people thought about 10% according to the research will be in severe grief for six months or longer. The risk of remaining in deep grief for more than a year is higher for those under socioeconomic stress or who experience the loss of a spouse and it's even higher still after the loss of a child or a sudden death via accident, suicide or homicide." That's kind of what I was saying before. So for example, I worked with someone last year who lost her older child in a plane wreck and her husband was also on that plane - and he survived. So where does grief get expressed in that family? Often grieve isn't a solo event others lived through. So again, is there a right way to grieve? No, no, no. Also, to chime in with Ms. Bastian, I have found that grief sort of comes in waves and I've talked about this on the podcast. And you'll wonder and even be afraid what's happening when you get hit by what seems like a stronger wave than ever when your grief had been subsiding. "Oh my, I'm going all the way back to where I was in the first place." That's not my experience with grief. Grief comes in waves and some are stronger than others and then all of a sudden you can get hit by a rogue wave when you get triggered in some way. That's also grief. But let's talk about when it becomes more severe in penetrating, and I'm gonna go back to Miss Bastian's article. "Adults who face this long-running, even severe distress are experiencing what many clinicians and researchers term prolonged or complicated grief. This increases their chances of having serious mental and physical health problems, including premature death and suicidal thoughts. Even if we don't personally know someone who died within a couple of years of a major loss, we've probably all heard stories of it". So back to just me talking <laugh>, there is a new diagnosis called complicated grief and it's still very controversial 'cause it seems to be pathologizing really deep grief and they give it some sort of one year cutoff. If you're still grieving after one year, then you should be given a diagnosis of complicated grief. The Washington Post op-ed argued why set expectations on its pace or texture. Why pathologize love? Now I'm back to Miss Bastian. Okay, so basically Adam was the name of her son, and I'm gonna go back to this part of her article. "When Adam died, I needed hope that a vibrant life was within my reach. The science showed me that it might be closer than I could even imagine. So I tried to look forward, forward as I did so I held onto a thought about my boy that helped me face a future without him." And this is incredibly profound. So please listen closely. Ms. Baston: "He had loved me his whole life, that love is precious and it's for keeps. I will not waste it." So what she seems to be saying is she's reached a space or place in her heart and her mind where emotionally dying herself from the pain of losing her son would devalue his love for her. I remember a woman I worked with many years ago or several years ago, lost her daughter in a tragic accident, completely shocking and a little more than a year after her death, she went to a wedding of one of her daughter's really good friends and they had a picture of her daughter there because she was supposed to have been in the wedding. And she came back into therapy and said something very similar to Ms. Bastian. She said, "I realized I was there because everyone there had loved my daughter and I loved my daughter, and I was there to honor her as hard as it was for her to go." Deciding you're not going to emotionally die along with your your son or your brother, or your mother or your friend is so important. I see this so much. It's a choice to continue living and in so doing, honoring the person who died. I get a Christmas card every year, in fact, from a family I saw years ago, a couple who'd lost their second child days after his birth.One of them became very angry as his faith was temporarily shattered. The other focused on their living child while also grieving and they had a bit of struggle trying to understand and accept that their separate ways of grieving... /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/27972519

357 SelfWork: How A Couple Can Destroy Their Relationship in Four Painfully Easy Steps... Or Not 09/01/2023

357 SelfWork: How A Couple Can Destroy Their Relationship in Four Painfully Easy Steps... Or Not I was shocked to see this past week that I'd never done an episode on the four most well-researched communication patterns that can predict a couple will divorce or end their relationship. And I talk about them in couples therapy all the time! These four have been written about extensively by the well-known pair of researchers John and Julie Gottman – and I think their work is right on target, given what I sadly see on a regular basis in my office. And I’ll offer the most recent ways these four distinct behaviors can appear in the modern partnership. Sadly, if you or your partner don’t see these things as problems, then that is a tremendous issue. But if you’re not aware of the danger of these, then you may not know the quicksand your relationship is in – and sinking fast. The listener voicemail is from someone who was taught that everything in her life had to appear “perfect” – even saying that if someone comes over for dinner, there need to be five courses and the house has got to be spotless. That is truly a prison and she wants out! But… she lives in the same city as her mother – who taught her all this – and she fears moving away from those choices and what her mother’s reactions might be. I so love the questions y’all send in so keep them coming! Advertisers Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just Make sure you use the code “selfwork10” to check out free product Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 – with bonus product with your subscription! Vital Links: You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast. Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it’s available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there’s another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript Dr. Margaret: This is SelfWork and I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork’ we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm so glad you're here. I hope you've enjoyed the last few interviews. I thought especially Dr. Priyanka Wali’s interview was really fascinating, a doctor and a comedian. She also just had some wonderful thoughts - that was last week. Hope you get a chance to listen to that if you haven't. I was commenting on an Instagram post the other day about someone giving their partner this silent treatment, which is something we all hear about. And I was looking for podcast episodes I'd done on marriage. I thought surely there'd be a whole bunch of them. And to my shock. I found ONE on stonewalling, but not much else. I was really looking for talking about problems in marriages that cause maybe divorce or something like that. And there are actually very well researched bad habits. There are four of them that can predict divorce. So that's the topic for today. These four have been written about extensively by the well-known pair of researchers, John and Julie Gottman, and I think their work is right on target, given what I sadly see on a regular basis in my office. We'll focus on the Gottman's four candidates and you can see what you and your partner may be guilty of. Sadly, if you or your partner don't see these things as problems, then that itself is a tremendous issue. But if you're not aware of the danger of these habits, then you may not know the quicksand your relationship actually could be in and you could be sinking fast. Now, I'm not a researcher, but I'll also add a few more thoughts of my own about what these look like in the modern 2023 relationships. The listener voicemail is from someone who was taught that everything in her life had to appear perfect. Even saying that if someone comes over for dinner, there need to be five courses and the house has got to be spotless. That's truly a prison and she wants out, but she lives in the same city as her mother who taught her all this, and she fears moving away from those choices and what her mother's reactions might be. I love these questions that y'all send in. So please send a message over SpeakPipe, which is a voicemail, and I get to listen to your inflections and your voices and I love that. And the SpeakPipe option is in your show notes, but it's also on my website, drmargaretrutherford.com. It's right at the top. Let's hear first from SelfWorknsponsor Magnesium breakthrough. Ad from Magnesium Breakthrough I hope you truly enjoyed some time with family and friends this summer and got to take a break from the daily grind and enjoy your life. Perhaps you've indulged a bit on ice cream to beat the heat or a margarita or two. Gosh, lots of indulgence may become the norm, but now kids are back in school and it's time to get back on track. If you struggle to return to your health routine, there are three major things to prioritize healthy eating, exercise, and above all, quality sleep. 'cause sleep is the key to your body's rejuvenation and repair process. It actually controls hunger and weight loss hormones, boosts energy levels, and it impacts countless other functions. That's why I take magnesium daily, but not any supplement. I got magnesium breakthrough because it's just better. It's made by BIOptimizers and I highly recommend it. It has seven forms of magnesium designed to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up refreshed. And guess what? If you get more sleep, you're gonna find out that your healthy eating and exercise may be a little easier to do. So visit magbreakthrough.com/ self-work. Don't forget to enter code selfwork10 for 10% off any order. Once again, it's magbreakthrough.com/selfwork. Body of Episode: So let's talk about ways that you can really screw up your marriage, Dr. Margaret – Speaker 2 Marital work or couples work. Any kind of couple really is something I love to do. It's very challenging to help both people feel heard and understood - not always agreed with of course, but as long as I don't have one or both people looking at me and saying, “Please help them see how wrong they are”. <Laugh>, I feel pretty hopeful - in most cases at least. But sometimes that's exactly what's on one or both people's agenda. They've come to therapy way after they should have, it's really, it's not too late, but gosh, they've come in after multiple fights and threats of divorce or “I'm taking the children”, after affairs or betrayals of some kind have happened, be they financial or emotional or whatever. And they sit and argue in front of me at least for a while. I allow it to go on because I want to see the pattern that is as long as it doesn't get physically or verbally assaulted. If it does, I have to cool things down and sometimes this is what I'll do. To cool them down. I'll ask them both, “What do you think are the four greatest predictors of divorce?” Usually I get answers like fighting or your in-laws or trust kinds of answers. And that's not wrong. But the best research out there, in fact, the most rigorous that has been done is by Julie and John Gottman and what they call the four horsemen of the apocalypse - in this case, meaning the end of the partnership or marriage, are well-regarded as true predictors in the field of psychology. So I look at the couple and by now they have kind of settled down, because remember, they probably wouldn't be in my office if they truly wanted a divorce. So they're open to hear, “Well, okay, what are the predictors?” And I say very slowly in order of importance. Stonewalling is number four. That's when one or both of you goes for hours or days refusing to communicate with the other. Usually someone looks kind of sheepish at that point. They may have even told me there are times, like even days, we barely say anything to each other because it's such a relief from the fighting. Or I've seen people kind of smirk like somehow stonewalling their partner is a really cool way to gain control works every time they'll say, which I would usually answer, “Well, if it worked really well, I don't think you'd be here.” What's number three..Blaming. And not to be mean, but to make my point. I'll repeat a few phrases from what I've just listened to that I would call blaming. Or when you don't take your share or the responsibility for whatever problems there are, you're focused on the other one you think you're not or never to blame or you're quick to blame, you don't apologize. You're quick to angrily yell, “Whose fault is this? Who did this? “ So, your focus is mostly on other people and what they're doing wrong and not taking responsibility for yourself. Number two, let me let you think, if you can guess for a second, what could be number two, it's close to blaming…criticism - and now the room is getting even more quiet. What's the difference between blaming and criticizing? They usually are wrapped up together, but you can have one or the other that predominates like blaming is this is your fault. “This wouldn't have happened if you hadn't X, Y, or Z.” Where criticism isn't as much about fault, but about correcting them saying they're wrong. And you're right, you can hear shades of gaslighting here. “Why didn't you pay that bill?” Or, “ Why do you change the baby's diaper that way?” Lots of why questions, which puts everybody on the defense by the way, and why questions that infer criticism or there's downright criticism – “ The way you did that was just dumb” or labeling your partner, “You're so lazy “or bringing in the kids, “The children are on my side” here, or “All our friends agree with me.” Making sure you establish yourself as more right than your partner. More put together. You're like a healthier, more likable human being. So that gives you the right to criticize your partner. I think the worst thing, no, not the worst, maybe the funniest in many ways was one couple came in and they have one of those strings that come down in their garage so when they pull in, they know when to stop, you know, it kind of hits their windshield. And she was saying that thing would hit the windshield. He had a certain timing that if she didn't turn off the car like two seconds after that or a second after that, he told her, “You just don't know how to park.” It was really a little trivial <laugh>. She wasn't running into the wall. So what do you think the last one is? Guesses. The last one is contempt. Now what does contempt sound like? And I either pull from what they've already said or I make up my own examples. Like , “I can't believe I married someone like you. No one would ever guess just how disgusting you can be.” “How could you be so stupid?” Or it can be nonverbal stuff l- ike eye-rolling. But it's you have a disdain, a contempt, a huge disrespect for the other person. So this couple is sitting in front of me now looking maybe a little ashamed, maybe a little surprised, maybe a little shocked. And a few seconds later, one of them might say to me, “We do all of those.” And I say, “So we've got our work cut out for us, right?” But guess what? Sometimes one of them will say, “Well, I never do any of those things”, or I” wouldn't do it if she didn't do it or he didn't do it or they didn't do it Well guess what? That's blaming, right? <Laugh> or even contempt. And I point that out. Oh, so you just blamed her for all the problems or him. Now before I go on, let me say that we probably all make these errors. We all have bad days. We say mean things. We may even know what criticisms to use that will really get our partner something like, you know, you're sounding just like your mother. Oh, I thought you told me you were gonna try to change that in Margaret's office. I don't really see it. That's contempt and we use it on purpose. But if a couple doesn't see these four things as problems or one of them doesn't or refuses to, that may likely reflect that there's true emotional abuse going on, which of course reflects another level of problem. It's not a bad habit that they've gotten into that's gotten out of hand. It could be a choice to be in control and sabotage the worth and emotional stability of your partner and the absolute denial of blame or responsibility for any problem can be a destructive character trait that may not respond to therapeutic suggestion at all. Like in some of the personality disorders, borderline histrionic, narcissistic sociopathic, some of those problems if you are married to someone like that or partnered with them, it can take them some time to understand the impact they have on others if they can at all. But that's not the topic for today. We're talking about two pretty normal folks who've just gotten into some bad habits and may not recognize the horrible impact they can have. One couple comes to mind immediately, but before I talk about them, let’s hear from AG1. Your support of these products helps us make and produce SelfWork. So remember that as you listen and if you think it might benefit you, then please go for it. AG1 Advertisement Our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it literally every day. I gave AG1 a try because I wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases every day. I wanted better gut health, a boost in energy immune system support. I take it in the morning before starting my day and I make sure and leave it out for my husband because he tends to forget. I love knowing that I'm starting my day so incredibly well and I wouldn't change a thing because it's really helped me the last two or three years I've taken it. And here's a fact, since 2010, they've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making this nutrition supplement possible and the best it can be. So if you wanna take ownership of your health, it starts with ag one. Try ag one and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/selfwork and that's a new link. DrinkAG1.com/selfwork. Check it out. Speaker 2: Okay, so back to this couple. They came in only a few times together. She'd come to therapy to talk about feeling blamed for her husband's affairs that he'd had for years. “But he doesn't call them affairs,” she said, “They're all prostitutes. He says he only goes once a month. Sometimes they have sex, but most of the time he simply wants to be held. But he says it's my fault because I don't make love with him the right way, but I do love him and I'm willing to try.” I'd asked her if he'd come in with her and much to my surprise, he said yes he would. When he came in, he looked and sounded extremely depressed and sure enough he'd had treatment after treatment for depression. He tried all kinds of medicines. He'd even tried E C T, which is electroconvulsive therapy, and he was still suicidal. Frequently. I won't go into all of his story, but there was definite emotional abuse in his childhood by his mother and in therapy he stated that he hated himself for going to these prostitutes, hated his inability to stop, hated himself so much that that's what was behind the suicidality. This is an interesting fact. He'd never told any of the other treating doctors about this self-loathing or this behavior around going to prostitutes and how it was likely tied to continued suicidal thinking. Instead, he opted to keep going and keep hating himself and blaming his wife who he said he loved. He was so sad to hear and watch these two people in these patterns. I tried to give them both as much understanding and support as I could while also not justifying the hurt he was causing. What he couldn't see was how his present, very painful behavior was strongly linked or at least could be strongly linked to his anger, never expressed against his own mother. Just look at it. He could express disdain and contempt for a woman, his wife, while still receiving comfort from both her and the prostitutes. He hinted that there were other painful secrets he was keeping. He could almost see it. I could see it in his eyes, but then he looked at me when I suggested treatment like I was out of my mind. I even found a one week intensive program that served professionals like him. No one would have to know or suspect anything, but he was on a vacation. His wife looked hopeful. He never came back. His wife came in one more time. She said, “This is my last session. I think coming to you was the worst thing I could have done. All you talked about were the painful things in our marriage and we have a really great marriage.” I listened and told her I understood that I regretted if she felt that it only focused on their pain and she left. Speaker 2: You could hear the problems, the four horsemen of the apocalypse. They would go a long time without talking to one another. He blamed her for a lot of his behavior, but he also hated himself. He was very critical of her. And of course there was some contempt as well as he didn't understand why she just couldn't accept his behavior. And I do remember looking at her and saying, that is an option for you to just accept that this is what is going on. And she said, I'll try, but I don't know. But obviously when she came in and was angry with me or that's where she focused, her anger was on me, which is okay, you know, that happens. She needed to feel like they had a really great marriage and you know, they're probably still married to one another now in the community. This couple is considered a great couple, but neither of them were at a place where they could see or chose to look for what was underneath their very painful patterns with each other. I said earlier that I was gonna talk about some other more modern versions of these problems, so I'll do that now. Stonewalling, for example, it's basic withdrawal in order to feel in control. Non-communication. I think this can take the form interestingly enough of an intense focus on children where your child's life takes up so much of your time, you quote unquote, barely have any energy for your partner. Or it could be about work - you stonewall through work. Your attention to work could be so dominant in the relationship and you can justify it, right? Somebody's gotta make a living around here. But you can see perhaps that both could be related to stonewalling or they have a similar effect. You are not available for your partner, which you justify by saying that the children or your work or your major responsibility, but all the conflict you might have arguing, the criticism, the blaming, none of that ever gets worked out. You don't sit down and have a talk with one another about what's going on between the two of you. Now, it could also be in the form of absorption and video games or Instagram or TikTok. These can also draw... /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/27907659

356 SelfWork: What You Can Learn From Laughter and Fear: A Conversation with Dr. AND Comedian Priyanka Wali 08/25/2023

356 SelfWork: What You Can Learn From Laughter and Fear: A Conversation with Dr. AND Comedian Priyanka Wali I’ve long been one to say to someone who’s paralyzed about the direction they see their lives going in or goals they want to achieve – experiences they want to have – to say, “Why not “and?” After they look at me kinda funny, I’ll explain. “Why can’t you be a plumber and a painter? A mother and an ad exec? That’s what this week's SelfWork guest has accomplished. She’s an internal medicine doctor and she’s a comic. A stand-up comic at that. Named by Refinery29 as one of the 50 Female Stand-Up Comedians You Need To Know", Priyanka Wali is a stand-up comic who also believes strongly in mind/body connection and the importance of fear in true transformation. I think you'll love this conversation! She's also the co-host of with Sean Hayes (yes the guy from Will and Grace…). I know you'll enjoy talking about her story and how you might use it as motivation for your own! After all, why can’t life be an “and?” Advertisers' Links: We welcome back BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough as a returning sponsor to SelfWork and they have a new offer! Just Make sure you use the code "selfwork10" to check out free product Click for the NEW fabulous offer from AG1 - with bonus product with your subscription! Episode Transcript: Speaker 2: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. At SelfWork, we'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret and SelfWork is a podcast dedicated to you taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I'm a clinical psychologist, and I started this podcast just about seven years ago to extend the walls of my practice to many of you, some of you very interested in therapy or psychological issues, but also perhaps those of you who are a bit skeptical about the whole thing. So, I have a great interview for today and before beginning, here's a message and an offer from AG1, the Greens mix I take every morning to get my day started on the right track. Okay... Occasionally I miss a day, gotta say that, but I try to remember every day 'cause it makes a difference. AG1 Advertisement: Our next partner is AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole body health. I drink it literally every day. I gave AG1 a try because I wanted a single solution that supports my entire body and covers my nutritional bases every day. I wanted better gut health, a boost in energy immune system support. I take it in the morning before starting my day, and I make sure and leave it out for my husband because he tends to forget. I love knowing that I'm starting my day so incredibly well and I wouldn't change a thing because it's really helped me the last two or three years I've taken it. And here's a fact. Since 2010, they've improved their formula 52 times in the pursuit of making this nutrition supplement possible and the best it can be. So if you wanna take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a free one-year supply of Vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/selfwork, and that's a new link. DrinkAG1.com/selfwork. Check it out. Dr. Margaret I've long been one to say to someone who's paralyzed about the direction they see their lives going in or goals they wanna achieve, experiences they wanna have... They always say, "Well, I've gotta have this or this, but I've gotta make the perfect choice. I've gotta try this or this." And my question to them is, "Why isn't it an "and"? And after they look at me, kind of funny, I'll explain, "wWhy can't you be a plumber AND a painter, a mother AND an ad exec? We don't have to limit ourselves. We can be "AND", not this or this. And that's what our guest has accomplished. She's an internal medicine doctor and she's a comic, a standup comic, by the way, who was named by Refinery 29 as one of the top female standup comedians that you need to know. Her name is Priyanka Wali. And she's the co-host of HypochondriActor with Sean Hayes, the guy from Will and Grace that probably a lot of you know, It's a great, great podcast and I'm delighted to have her on SelfWork as a true "And" - er <laugh>. Here's one more sponsor message. This one from BiOptimizers and Magnesium Breakthrough. I use it every night just like I use AG1e in the morning. And that's my own AND, I guess, Magnesium Breakthrough Advertisement: Hey guys, I wanna share with you that recently I've been working on some very important projects that have very short deadlines, as always, right? It seems everything today is a S A P. Anyway, I have not been able to keep up with all of my self-care routine. I certainly haven't had breaks to have proper meals, and I'm drinking way too much ice tea. I was starting to get really stressed out when I remembered that the magnesium breakthrough I take every night is also a great support for stress management. And I'd kind of forgotten that. In fact, magnesium is responsible for over 300 body reactions. And magnesium breakthrough is the only magnesium formula that delivers all seven different forms of magnesium. I didn't know there were seven forms, one of them being feeling more calm, centered, and in control of our stress. If you are trying to balance life demands, give it a try. Trust me, your mind and your body will thank you for it. What you can do is visit mag breakthrough.com/ self-work and order now. Oh, in addition to the discount you get by using promo code self-work 10. So that's different self-work. 10. They're also amazing gifts with purchase. That's why I love shopping it by optimizers. Again, go to mag breakthrough.com/ self-work to get your magnesium breakthrough and find out this month's gift with purchase. Episode 356 with Priyanka Wali. Realize you can support self-work by supporting our sponsors. And now, Priyanka Wally, Speaker 2: Dr. Margaret I started off my morning by listening to your comedy routine <laugh>. Speaker 3: Dr. Priyanka Wali Oh, which one? Which bit did you check out? Speaker 2: the one on your Website? Speaker 3: The one? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2: And I laughed. I just thought, I've known some in and out guys. Speaker 3: <Laugh> <laugh>. Oh man. Yeah, that takes me back. You know, I haven't, I haven't, you know, after the pandemic hit, you know, obviously comedy changed and performing in person totally changed. And I remember going back on stage in 2021, so, you know, we were kind of used to reentry, we were opening up a little bit, and the vibe was just really different. And so I've, I've slowly been getting my feet Speaker 2: Thought about that. How was it different, Priyanka? Speaker 3: Well, first of all, you know, having, it was an outdoor show and most people were wearing masks. But even if you're doing an indoor show, you, it's hard to see people's facial expressions if they're masked. Right? So that, you know, to me, standup has always been a relationship between the, the performer and the audience. It's a connection. And when you, you know, cover the face for obvious important reasons, safety reasons it, it sort of breaks that connection. And so what I found was that I enjoyed comedy, less enjoyed performing less after the pandemic. And I actually took a break from comedy and I sort of went back to like, "Okay, what does bring me joy? Like, what is this really about?" And I went to France and I actually studied clowning with Philippe Goer, who's a world renowned clowning expert. And I went back to the basics of like, okay, physical comedy, like comedy with your body and not just your neck up mind voice. And then I sort of came into singing parody songs. And that's kind of the new stuff that I'm working on now. Really? Yeah. So I'm taking my comedy and I'm turning it into more parody songs, and I've released a few small clips on Instagram. But I'm planning on releasing a longer video at some point. So that's kind of what I'm working on. And that's like part of the transformation as an artist, which is, it's an incredible journey. Speaker 2: Well, you know and I wanna, I wanna back up and we, we kinda started in the middle, didn't we? Or I did. Yeah. Yeah. And so I wanna back up and, and talk about how you got to be, but you know, I'm a huge advocate of, of, AND kind of lives. I am this AND I'm that, and I'm something else. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I love that you're living your life that way. Oh, thank you. I also listened to the last podcast that you and Sean did. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I thought the story about your either great-grandfather or your grandfather was so touching that Wali is actually the Arabic name. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> healer or helper. Speaker 3: Yeah. Helper. Helper. Or like friend, friend of man, helper of man. Yeah. Yeah. It was a name bestowed upon us. Yeah. Speaker 2: Incredible. Speaker 3: <Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. When I, when I learned that for the first time, and it sort of changed my relationship with my own name, you know, I always thought I didn't really have a relationship, but then once I realized it was sort of like, gifted, I was like, Wow, that's, that's, there was an identity shift and you know, there's a sense of humility and gratitude as well. Speaker 2: You know, when you hear stories like that. My grandmother was named Emma Clayton Robinson, and I remember asking one time why was, why was her middle name Clayton? And the story was that I'm from the south, I'm from Arkansas, and her mother and father's home was taken over by the Yankees during the Civil War by a General Clayton. Speaker 3: Okay. Speaker 2: He was so kind to them that they, when my grandmother was born, she was named Emma Clayton Robinson. Speaker 3: Wow. Speaker 2: And Clayton has become one of our family names, which is just so, I don't know, it adds something to your understanding of your family and what has happened, and of course, Speaker 3: Right. Speaker 2: It's just, I don't know, there's something about that kind of tradition or g legacy that's just fascinating to me. Speaker 3: Yeah. And I'm curious, do you know what, what was the name prior to Clayton before that? Speaker 2: Well, no, she had not been. She was born and then, and then they named her Emma Clayton Robinson. Speaker 3: Wow. Wow. Yeah. There's so many complexities to that story, because on one hand, this, this person was the oppressor. They came in and they took, you know, your family home and your land. Right. And yet they were a kind, oppressor, kind enough for us to name them after them. It's like, there's so many nuances to that, that story. It's, it's very complex. It certainly could, would be totally justifiable to bring up a lot of different set of feelings around that. Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. So I wanna find out about your journey. You are a physician. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you're an internal medicine physician. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And I think you also have training in OB obesity, is that right? Speaker 3: Correct. Yeah. Double board certified. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> double board certified. Speaker 2: And so, and, and then, and you know, you, you've laughed with your co-host Sean, about I really wanna be just a doctor on tv and Yeah. Speaker 3: <Laugh>, I just want a small rule on Grey's Anatomy. Is that too much to ask<Laugh>? I mean, come on. Speaker 2: So I would love to hear you know, there's a lot of doctors in your family and you told that story, but Yeah. How, how did you decide to become a physician? And are you, are, are you American born? Are you, were you born in India or were you born in America? Speaker 3: Yeah, great question. So I was born in the United States, so I'm Kary Pundit. So my family originates from Northern Kashmir, and that region was actually affected by genocide as recent as 1991. And so that led to a diaspora and immigration all over the world. And my family chose the United States. And so I was born in Los Angeles, but I actually spent some early formative years going back and forth between India and the United States up until I was age three. And so, you know, my childhood upbringing you know, my parents were doctors, their siblings are doctors. Their kids are doctors. I mean, and, and the lineage goes further up the chain. So healing was really, we would not have normal dinner discussions. You know, like the, the dinner table discussions were about, like, the cases my dad had and like, you know, all this sort of preventive medicine stuff. And so I joke, you know, like I sort of came out of the womb holding a stethoscope. It was something that I lived, breathed. It wasn't until I went to college that I was like, oh, people can do other things. You know what I mean? And I always had an artistic side to me. And so I always loved performing arts and creative writing, and that's always been a, a very big part of my sort of soul's energy. And at the same time, the science had also would come to me quite easily. And so I found myself you know, going through the pre-med classes and I actually was accepted into a program coming out of high school called a Baccalaureate MD program. It no longer exists, but it was a program where you basically got accepted into medical school coming out of high school. Really? It was a, yeah, it was a very competitive program. They only took, I think like 12 or 15 people all across the United States. And so I knew, I knew out of high school that I was gonna go to med school. Yeah. And I can't say honestly though, that that was what I wanted. I think there was a part of me that really was you know, I loved creative arts. I loved performing. And I couldn't see a path if I were to pursue medicine. But I, I grew up in a very traditional Indian family. Like, I had a tremendous amount of pressure from my parents. Like, no, you have to go to med school. Like, that's gonna happen. Yeah. And so, you know, again, because the science would come to me easily, I decided to, to sort of give it a go and give it a chance. You know, in hindsight I wish I had taken some time off in between undergrad and med school. 'cause I went straight through. And I, I don't necessarily recommend that. I think if I had had more time to sort of develop and simmer as a human being you know, I, I wasn't really a human being by the time I went to HU Med School. I was just this concept, you know, I was so undeveloped as a person. Speaker 2: So you followed the structure that your parents wanted you to follow, and really hadn't had a whole lot of autonomy about Speaker 3: That. Totally. Yeah. And, you know, it would come out in these different ways. Like I, you know, when I was a med student, I joined this local improv troupe in East Los Angeles, you know, and I would have these little pockets of things that I would do to create balance. Sure. And it's funny now because the work that I do as a, as a physician, I, I am very passionate about it now, but I think it's because I've taken much more of a an an identity that this is part of social justice activism in terms of like, what is going on right now with the current medical paradigm and you, what needs to change. I feel like very compelled now to be involved with this and to be a part of this. Because at the end of the day, we're all connected. And I feel like I was given a set of privileges by being born into a family that, you know, was all healthcare providers on some aspect. And I feel like it would really be a, a waste to, to squander those gifts essentially. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so it's funny 'cause now I, I really love what I do and the way I've sort of built my life. I mean, I'm definitely not working like a traditional medical doctor at like, you know, a major hospital or anything like that. I mean, I have my own private practice and I, the way I think about healing, I would say it's, it's more consistent with like a new paradigm as opposed to the older paradigm. You know, in terms of integrated, Speaker 2: More holistic, Speaker 3: More holistic integrative, you know, thinking about issues from a mind body perspective as opposed to the current, you know, the current paradigm is like, you have a heart problem, you go to a heart doctor, you have a kidney problem, you go to a kidney doctor, you have a mind problem, you go to the mind doctor. It's like that. It's very disconnected and, you know, there's no more like general doctors anymore. I mean, it's like, it's a rare dying breed. And so I am really trying to bring a callback to, Hey, let's look at the whole person. Let's treat the whole person. This is not just a mind issue or a body issue. This is a mind body issue. And essentially we are all mind body spirits. Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Couldn't agree more. So I was always interested, and I remember asking my sort of, she's my manager you know, why does Priyanka wanna come on SelfWork? I mean, why does she wanna come on a mental health podcast? And I, I wanna ask you that question. I was so intrigued that, you know, and it sounds like it's very may maybe tied into this, well, one, of course, you're an example of someone who is saying, don't be, don't be governed by, you know, what other people expect of you. But make sure that you're, you're zoning in and really expressing the parts of yourself that bring you joy and, and that kind of thing. Which I think is wonderful. I didn't know if you had any history with depression or anxiety or anything like that, but it also sounds like maybe it's tied in with more of this holistic view of things. Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. So, so yeah. I, I actually, I've talked about this publicly. I think there was an article in Women's Health Magazine where I actually was very depressed in medical school. In fact, I didn't realize that I had the signs and symptoms of clinical depression until my psychiatry rotation in medical training Oh. <Laugh>. Where I was interviewing people. Yeah. I was interviewing people who were severely clinically depressed. And I was walking away from these interviews with individuals and I was like, there's really no difference between me and this person that like, probably needs to be hospitalized. And you know, I, it was then that I, yeah. So it was then that I realized that, you know, I had severe clinical depression and I needed to be on antidepressants for a period of time in medical training. And what, what in hindsight coming out of that, what really was going on is that I was in a very difficult situation. The medical system, the medical training system, it's actually a very oppressive system. And I didn't have the best coping skills. I didn't even know what therapy was at the time. And fortunately that's when I learned about treatments, like cognitive behavioral therapy. And I started therapy. I saw a psychiatrist and was able to get the help that I needed. And then when I graduated medical school, my depression symptoms went away and I was able to get off the meds. And I haven't had a relapse of depression to that severity since then. Speaker 2: So it was probably very situational and that kind of thing. It was Speaker 3: Absolutely situational. Yeah. Speaker 2: I have the fancy title of adjunct professor at University of Arkansas Medical School. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> Medical School of Medical Sciences, I think it's called mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And I laughed and said, I don't even get a parking place with that. So <laugh> Speaker 3: <Laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. And Speaker 2: I, I teach a course that's, you know, an hour and a half in one semester or so, it's very little about psychotherapy to medical students. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> who are psych psychiatry rotation. And one of my major questions is, what do y'all... /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/27844659

355 SelfWork: How Five Types of Perfectionism Can Work For You: A Conversation with Katherine Morgan Schafler 08/18/2023

355 SelfWork: How Five Types of Perfectionism Can Work For You: A Conversation with Katherine Morgan Schafler When I received an email about this new book, I knew I wanted to talk with its author. The book? The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control. The author? Katherine Morgan Schafler, a psychotherapist and former on-site therapist at Google. She's worked with many high-achieving women who are told they need to find "balance" - as if they're doing something wrong! Katherine tells us instead that what's important is to learn about the five different types of constructive perfectionism so that it can work for you! As she says, "You can dare to want more without feeling greedy or ungrateful!" She's an eloquent writer and speaker and it was wonderful having her on SelfWork as she helps these women exchange superficial control for real power. Hope you'll listen in and learn! Advertisers' Links: Have you been putting off getting help? BetterHelp, the #1 online therapy provider, has for you now! Vital Links: My that today has earned 100,000 views! You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, The Selfwork Podcast. Subscribe to and receive my weekly newsletter including a blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression is available Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And it's available in paperback, eBook or as an audiobook! And there's another way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you! Episode Transcript: Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret This is SelfWork. And I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford At Self-Work. We'll discuss psychological and emotional issues common in today's world and what to do about them. I'm Dr. Margaret, and Self-Work is a podcast dedicated to you, taking just a few minutes today for your own selfwork. Hello and welcome or welcome back to SelfWork. I'm Dr. Margaret Rutherford. I started this podcast now, almost seven years ago, to extend the walls of my practice to many of you who've already been in therapy and very interested in psychological and mental issues, emotional issues, to those of you who might have just been diagnosed with something and you're looking for answers. And also to a third group of you that might be a little skeptical about the whole mental health treatment thing. And even admitting to someone that you need help, that's a step in and of itself. So listening to a podcast, it's a real safe way to do that, right? Welcome to all of you. Y'all all know that I've written a book called Perfectly Hidden Depression, where we need to look at perfectionism as it serves as a camouflage for really a lot of inner struggle, despair, loneliness, and even sometimes suicidal thinking. So I was very interested to see a book that's come out talking more about the positive aspects of perfectionism, what I would term constructive perfectionism rather than destructive perfectionism. So there's a new book by Katherine Morgan Schafler called The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. And she says, you know, you don't have to stop being a perfectionist to be healthy. She says, for women who are sick of being given the generic advice that they just need to find balance, her new approach has arrived, and she's categorized these constructive perfectionists in five ways: classic, intense, Parisian, messy or procrastinator. Which one could you be? As you identify your unique perfectionist profile, you'll learn how to manage each form of perfectionism to work for you, not against you. Beyond managing, you'll learn how to embrace and even enjoy your perfectionism. Yes, enjoy. This book is elegantly written. I had to comment at the very beginning of the interview. I think it's one of the best books, at least self-help books that I've ever read, including my own. So Catherine's book is a love letter to the ambitious, high achieving full of life clients who have filled the author's private practice and who changed her life. Ultimately, her book will show you how to make the single greatest trade you'll ever make in your life, which is to exchange superficial control for real power, is what she says. So I was very interested to talk with Katherine, and we talked a few weeks ago, and that's our episode for today, Katherine Morgan Schafler. So this episode is sponsored once again by Better Help, because when you are ready to ask for help, maybe that will be the venue that you turn to because it is so easy, affordable for many, and very, very conducive to whatever lifestyle you are living. So let's hear from Better Help. BetterHelp Ad: I recently heard a fascinating reframe for the idea of asking for help. Maybe you view asking for help as something someone does who's falling apart or who isn't strong. So consider this. What if asking for help means that you won't let anything get in your way of solving an issue, finding out an answer or discovering a better direction? Asking for help is much more about your determination to recognize what needs your attention, or what is getting in your way of having the life you want better help. The number one online therapy provider makes reaching out about as easy as it can get. Within 48 hours, you'll have a professional licensed therapist with whom you can text, email, or talk with to guide you, and you're not having to comb through therapist websites or drive to appointments. It's convenient, inexpensive, and readily available. Now, you can find a therapist that fits your needs with better help. And if you use the code or link Better help.com/selfwork, you get 10% off your first month of sessions. So just do it. You'll be glad you did. That. Link again is better help.com/selfwork to get 10% off your first month of services. And now I want to introduce you to Catherine Morgan Schaeffler, the author of The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control. Interview: Speaker 1: Dr. Margaret Catherine, I I, I was reading your book and, and I will tell you that I, I think you're one of the most eloquent writers that I've ever interviewed and I've interviewed a bunch. Speaker 2: Katherine Schafler Wow, thank you so much. Speaker 1: The way you use language, the way you approach ideas and the way you get them across is really, it makes the book not only very compelling, but it's it's just a pleasure to read. It's, it's a, it's the, it's very evocative and, and I just so enjoyed the way you think and the way you put things. So the process of the book was really good, I thought. 2: Thank you. That is so flattering. I will take that. Thank you so much. 1: Oh, good. So tell SelfWork listeners a little bit about you, who you are, how you get, you know, how you got to be an author, all that kind of thing. 2: Sure. So my name's Katherine Morgan Schafler. I live in New York City, and I'm a psychotherapist and, and I, I think I always secretly wanted to write, but it was never in the forefront of my mind because I really do love being a therapist and, and my private practice was the soul of my work and still is. But I just noticed so many patterns as, as I know you have, because I've read your book as well, which is also fantastic. It was hooked on that intro story, which is every therapist's worst nightmare of Natalie and everything. Anyway, I digress. So, you know, when it is your job to listen to the most intimate pieces of someone's life, unfiltered, uncut and totally honest, that there's something special and sacred about that. And you kind of have your pulse on the zeitgeist in the way that other professions don't necessarily allow. And for me, recognizing patterns across so many clinical settings, across so many de demographics, culturally, socioeconomically, and in all these kinds of ways, really compelled me to contain it somewhere. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, hence the book. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I wrote The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control, A Path to Peace and Power, because that's, I noticed, universal. 1: That's my cue to show it. <Laugh>. Yeah. <Laugh>, yes. 2: So I, I really noticed universal plates around perfectionism that we are not talking about in commercial wellness. And not only are we not talking about them, we are talking about perfectionism. Like we fully understand it, like we know what it is, and you know, it's agreed upon in the research world that we're in the infancy of understanding this construct and that we don't even have a, an a formal clinical definition for so much of this stuff. And that really... 1: I noticed you call it an innate natural human tendency mm-hmm.Yeah. I thought that was interesting. 2: Yeah. You know, I think that it is natural and innate, and natural does not mean immediately healthy. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, you know, like anger is also natural. That doesn't mean that anger is always healthy, but it also doesn't mean that it's not that there aren't wonderful expressions of that impulse within us. And that if we can just harness our natural innate human impulses instead of trying to eradicate them and get rid of them, which doesn't work, it will never work. I'm glad it will never work, because perfectionism is so powerful. Anger is such a powerful tool. All these things that we think are bad. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, they're not bad. They're powerful. 1: Yes. And they can be used in that way. You know, I, of course, I was thinking about my own writing and, and research and work when I was reading your book, and I really loved the juxtaposition of, of what your focus was and what my focus was. Which your focus is much more to a look at the, the beauty of perfectionism and celebrate it in many ways. And, and yet also look for when it's becoming something that, you know, like you said, all the five different types have their pros and their cons. Right. There are things that are great about them, and then there's things that are a little more vulnerable about them. Whereas my work is more talking about trauma and perfectionism and how that can, how perfectionism can at times, certainly not all the time be a camouflage of some kind, something that someone learns how to do in order to cope with the trauma that they have. So they mm-hmm. <Affirmative> Anyway, enough about that. But I, I, I so enjoyed looking at this other side of it. And how did you come up with the five different categories? I mean, is that something just observation, clinical observation? 2: Yes. Well, first, let me say, I really resonate with what you just said, because my first job in this profession was working in residential treatment with kids in LA who had been severely abused and neglected so much so that they were no longer even in foster care because their family of origin had in some way not been fit to parent. And then they were abused and neglected in foster care, and then they became what was called wards of the state. Yes. And I saw so much perfectionism, maladaptive perfectionism of just shape shifting, of being around an adult and immediately trying to assess, "Okay, who do they want me to be?" Speaker 2: Who does this grownup want me to be? How do I, how do I best be whatever they need me to be right in this moment to stay safe. 1: Yeah. It's like a supervisor told me once, if you go into someone's home where you meet a family, always pay attention to the child that is quiet in the corner. <Laugh>. 2: Yeah. I put that in my book too. I had, I had similar advice from my supervisor who said, really specifically, pay attention to the children who are behaving perfectly. And I think that's a common adage in training and therapy, because, you know, kids have natural frenetic energy so often, and they're a little bit all over the place, and, and that's a good thing. But when they are trying to manage so much, they you know, fade themselves out. But to return to your original question, I came up with the five types because I was really trying to understand a phenomenon that I was noticing, which was, you know, I, I worked onsite at Google. I had a private practice on Wall Street. I worked in a rehab in Brooklyn in all these different, you've been <laugh>, all these different settings. And I was able to take a client from my rehab and a client from my private practice on Wall Street and on, and see that they were both going to respond similarly to a certain situation. And those kinds of things started happening all the time. And I'm like, what is the tie that binds this true? Love it. And I thought for a moment, like, is it attachment theory? Is it this, is it what is happening? And how come I can predict with reasonable reliability, how people are going to respond to certain, you know, stimulus? And that's where the five types came from. I said, oh, it's perfectionism that is manifesting here, and it manifests in a patterned way. 1: So the, just to let the listeners know, the five types are: classic, procrastinator, messy, intense, and Parisian. And having lived in Paris for a little while I thought was, that one was very interesting. Oh, I think the French would love that they were some type of <laugh> perfectness. 2: Well, you know, I I came up with that title because, you know, the, the beauty aesthetic for French women is so, so understated and simple in the sense that like, simplicity is the greatest form of sophistication. Like, it's very much signaling a a subtext of I'm not trying too hard. And the Parisian perfectionist really is embarrassed about other people knowing how much they care about something. Oh, that's, you know, and so they wanna be a little bit effortlessly cool. I'm not trying too hard. I don't care if you like me or not. Speaker 2: Meanwhile, they care a lot. And as I talk about in the book, that's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to prioritize connection and relationships and understand the power of those connections that you have. And that is what Parisian perfectionists do. Every perfectionist is chasing an ideal mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And we think of perfectionism in a one dimensional way, as in behavioral perfectionism. So I want everything to be organized and in its place when actually perfectionism is kaleidoscopic. And so perfectionism can show up interpersonally, I want to be perfectly liked by you, or perfectly understood, or I wanna be the perfect mother, the perfect whatever. And that doesn't look like I wanna act and say the perfect things. It's so much more nuanced. That's why I love this subject, because the person is holding in their mind a pie chart of what the perfect mother, let's say, okay. Speaker 2: Behaves like. Right. It's not that she never screams, it's that when she loses her cool, it's only to a certain amount. And then she's immediately able to make successful repair attempts and she's continually, you know, improving and getting better. And, you know, she's, and so when we think of perfect, we think of happy all the time, or never making a mistake, but perfectionism is actually very individualized. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, and it's based on the own person's sense of what is, you know, this shows up another example of emotional perfectionism showing up is like, what is the perfect way to feel when you bump into an X <laugh>? Right? So it's like, I wanna feel 5% nostalgic, 20% just indifferent, and I don't care. And like 50% confident, empowered, and, you know, I wanna forget about it 10 minutes later. And so, you know, that's where we get to the nuance of perfectionism is those, those little pie charts that we walk around with our minds. 1: I, I think that's great. And, and I'm not sure what I would do if <laugh> my heads, I don't think it would be perfect, whatever it was. 2: We don't wanna find out. We don't need to find out. Right. <laugh> that can remain a mystery for us all. 1: It seems more targeted or focused on women. You talk a lot about misogyny, and I totally agree with you. And, and yet how would men be? 2: You know, you're the first person to ask me that question, and I've done so many podcasts. Thank you for asking that, because this is something I wanna talk more about. Unfortunately, like everything can't fit in a book, but perfectionism in men, typically, and I, you know, this is like a heteronormative version of perfectionism in men, typically shows up in like, the perfect response for a man is to be strong, to not cry, to know what to do, and to be able to pretty immediately execute on those actions. Speaker 2: Right? So there's no allowance for inaction. There's no allowance for more feminine qualities of, you know, I need comfort, I need guidance, I need counsel, I need love, I need all the things that men need, but feel unable to either access or ask for, or even recognizing themselves that they need because we've so polarized what it means to be a man and a woman in this, in this ridiculous way that we all know intellectually. But when we are in that position of, of feeling in need, you know, it's hard to be able to operate with a broadened perspective on all that stuff. 1: I was talking to one of my own clients yesterday about asking for help, and I quoted your quote <laugh>. Hmm. He said, asking for help is refusal to give up. And that's how I frame it. I loved that. So anyway, again, there are lots of little, no, not so little just very noteworthy and memorable.Is that a word? Memorable, <laugh> things things, quotes in your book. 2: Well, I'm glad that we're including men 'cause people have asked me that question too. And, and what I've noticed and I, I certainly have men, many men come to mind that I've worked with that Right. Fit into this rubric. So, I mean, I'm sure you've noticed the difference between what happens when men cry in front of you in a session, for example. Right. I mean, it's always vulnerable when clients go there. They're meaning like a very emotionally like live wire place when men do it. There, there is like a palpable sense of shame in the room, you know, of like, oh, I am really out of control right now. I am really losing it. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. 1: Yeah. I, I I love to say to folks, I think tears are about intensity, not weakness. 2: Mm. I like that reframe. We believe. 1: So one of the things that I appreciated so much about your book is that you spend several chapters on what you can do about it, is what I say on SelfWork all time. What can you do about it? Yeah. And I wanna get there, but before I do, I think there were really in this kind of sense of celebrating, but also trying to understand what the underbelly of perfectionism is. You, you said there are two guiding questions mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, how am I striving and why am I striving? Can you talk about that a little bit? 2: Sure. So, you know, mental health and being healthy is not like a coordinate that you just plant your flag in and say, I've arrived. I'm healthy now. And healthy versions of perfectionism and unhealthy versions, like everybody always wants to know, am I healthy, perfectionist or not? And I'm like, let me kill the suspense. You're both, I'm both, anyone who's a perfectionist is both Exactly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I encourage people to think of it on a spectrum, right? And so in instead of a categorical model of I am or am not, the questions of how and why help you really be a little more thoughtful about your level of awareness. So the how it am it skin, it's... /episode/index/show/drmargaretrutherford/id/27785880

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