Music Therapy Conversations

The podcast of the British Association for Music Therapy: Conversations with music therapists and other people about music therapy and related topics.

Ep 91 - Crystal Luk-Worrall 10/29/2024

Ep 90 Helen Wallace-Bell 09/24/2024

Ep 90 Helen Wallace-Bell In this podcast, Martin Lawes talks to Helen Wallace-Bell about SMI and RMI which are part of the contemporary spectrum of Guided Imagery and Music (GIM) and Music and Imagery (MI) methods Helen explains what these approaches are and how the recorded music used is chosen collaboratively to help the client develop their inner resources or work on issues. Helen is involved in MI training which also gets discussed. In addition, Helen talks about her work with clients who have PTSD and about online groupwork with carers. She discusses various music used in this work including Breezin’ (George Benson, ), Angels Nest (Peter Kater, ), and Darkest Hour (Sevdaliza, ). The podcast begins with Martin explaining how GIM in contemporary practice is a spectrum of different methods and approaches including MI. He outlines what the Bonny Method of GIM is, as the original GIM method, and how MI has been developed in part to meet the needs of clients where GIM is contra-indicated or is in other ways unsuitable. For music therapists wishing to use GIM with their existing clients, the MI methods are especially important. Helen Wallace-Bell, MA, BA (Hons), FAMI, MIT(Dip.), IMBP(Dip.) trained as a Music Therapist at the University of Roehampton, qualifying in 2007. She then worked for many years with adults with a learning disability. During this time, Helen began training in GIM, an experience she found transformative and enlightening both professionally and personally. She is now a GIM Fellow and MI Therapist (MIT) working in mental health, trauma, personal development, and group work (). She is also an Independent Music Breathing Practitioner, Assistant Trainer and Supervisor at The Integrative GIM Training Programme (), and a BAMT registered supervisor. Helen’s GIM training cohort were the first to be trained in SMI and RMI in the UK and she is passionate about the efficacy and value of MI as a therapy process. She has presented case studies at a number of conferences, including sharing the results of an SMI groupwork pilot project undertaken with music therapy organisation Whole Step CIC during Covid-19 lockdowns, and her own experience as a trainee using MI to process transference/counter-transference. In her spare time, Helen enjoys living by the sea, and is a singer, songwriter, and percussionist in a folk trio. References Wallace, H. (2010) 'An Inquiry into an Integrated Approach to Music Therapy for Children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder & Sensory Integration Dysfunction'. MA research project, Roehampton University (unpublished). Margetts, L., Wallace, H. & Young, E. (2013) 'A Potential Space: Approaching "Outsider Research" with Classroom Practitioners working with Children with Complex Needs in Belarus', British Journal of Music Therapy, Vol.27, 2 p.6-23 (Co-Author) Wallace, H. (2018) 'A Whirlwind of Being', Music & Imagery Therapy Case Study outlining MI to process transference/counter-transference), presented at the 13th European GIM Conference, European Association of Music and Imagery (EAMI) Wallace, H (2021) 'Containment Through Collaboration: Online Therapy During Lockdown - A Pilot Project', Music & Imagery Therapy Groupwork Case Study, presented as part of a roundtable (Supportive Music & Imagery: Integrating Artwork & Imagery into Music Therapy practice), at The British Association for Music Therapy's annual conference (theme: 'Open Ground: Music Therapy in Collaboration & Exchange) Wallace, H (2022) 'The Way We Were: A multi-method approach to Music Therapy to support an adult with Learning Disability through bereavement', Music Therapy & Music & Imagery Therapy Case Study, presented at the 12th European Music Therapy Conference (theme: 'Music Therapy in Progress - Please Disturb') Wallace, H (2022) 'Online Group Music & Imagery Therapy During Lockdown', presented as part of a roundtable (The Use of Music & Imagery Methods as stand-alone interventions and as part of the continuum model), at the 12th European Music Therapy Conference Wallace, H. & Jakubauskas, R. (2022) 'A Sense of Belonging: Piloting an online Supportive Music & Imagery Therapy Group for Adult Carers during Covid-19', poster presentation at the 12th European Music Therapy Conference Wallace, H (2022) 'Reclaiming Jocelyn: One Woman's Journey Back to her Self through Music & Imagery Therapy', poster presentation at the 12th European Music Therapy Conference Wallace, H, & Jakubauskas, R (2023) 'Piloting Online Group Music & Imagery Therapy for Adult Carers during Covid-19', poster presentation at the World Federation of Music Therapy World Congress of Music Therapy /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/33176122

Ep 89 Emi Booth 08/27/2024

Ep 88 BAMT Conference 2024 Roundtable Discussion 07/23/2024

Ep 87 Karen Goodman 06/25/2024

Ep 87 Karen Goodman Karen D. Goodman, PhD., Professor Emerita of Music, Montclair State University, Montclair, New Jersey, USA., has been the primary figure in designing and developing both the former undergraduate and graduate music therapy programs at Montclair over forty years. Professor Goodman’s research-based clinical work, at ten clinical settings, includes music therapy practice in child and adult psychiatry and developmental disabilities at New York Hospital- Cornell Medical Center, Creative Arts Rehabilitation Center-NYC and educational programs in the Greater New York area. Currently an Associate Editor for Psychology of Music, Professor Goodman has served as Editor of Music Therapy: The Journal of the American Association for Music Therapy and other journals in education. Her publications include two widely acclaimed books: Music Therapy Groupwork with Special Needs Children: The Evolving Process (2007) and Music Therapy Education and Training: From Theory to Practice (2011) as well as two edited books International Perspectives in Music Therapy Education and Training: Adapting to a Changing World (2015) and Developing Issues in Music Therapy Education and Training: A Plurality of Views (2023). A frequent presenter at international music therapy conferences over many years, she lectures and consults internationally on topics related to her clinical work and higher education and the relationships between these, most recently her lifespan developmental stage model for music therapy supervision (Goodman, 2023). Her outreach services for clinical supervision, program design, editing, teaching and both book and grant review are described here: References Arieti, S., (1955) Interpretation of schizophrenia. Goodman, K.D. (2023) The Music Therapy Supervisor: Developmental Perspectives. Aalborg, Denmark: Aalborg University Goodman, K.D. (Ed.) (2023) Developing Issues in World Music Therapy Education and Training. Springfield, Illinois: Charles C Thomas Publisher. Goodman, K.D. (Ed.) (2015) International Perspectives in Music Therapy Education and Training: Adapting to a Changing World. Springfield, Illinois: Charles C Thomas Publisher. Goodman, K.D. (2011) Music Therapy Education and Training: Theory to Practice. Springfield, Illinois: Charles C Thomas Publisher. Goodman, K.D (2007) Music Therapy Groupwork with Special Needs Children: The Evolving Process. Springfield, Illinois: Charles C Thomas Publisher. Goodman, K.D. (2015) Book Publication in Music Therapy (In) K.D. Goodman (Ed.) International Perspectives on Music Therapy Education and Training: Adapting to a Changing World. Springfield, Illinois: Charles C Thomas. Kaufman, D. L. & Goodman, K.D. Cracking Up and Back Again: Transformation through Music and Poetry. In Z. Li & T.L. Long, (Eds.) (2010) The Meaning Management Challenge: Making Sense of Health, Illness and Disease, Oxford, UK: Inter-Disciplinary Press, pp. 117-129. Goodman, K.D. (1981) Music Therapy, Chapter 29. In S. Arieti (Ed.) The American Handbook of Psychiatry. New York: Basic Books Goodman, K.D. (2008) Cracking Up and Back Again: Book Review. Arts in Psychotherapy. 35(2) Goodman, K.D. (1989) Music Therapy Evaluation of Emotionally Disturbed. Children. Arts in Psychotherapy. 16(2), 179-192. Goodman, K.D. (1986) Book reviews. Journal of Music Therapy, 23 (1). /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/31840477

Ep 86 Holly Shirra 05/28/2024

Ep 85 Jessica Leza 04/23/2024

Ep 84 Den Vecchio 03/26/2024

Ep 83 Evelyn Mason 02/20/2024

Ep 83 Evelyn Mason Evelyn Mason is an experienced music therapist and Vice-Chancellor’s PhD Student at the Cambridge Institute for Music Therapy Research at Anglia Ruskin University (ARU) in Cambridge. Chroma Therapies and the Independent Neurorehabilitation Providers Alliance (INPA) are collaborating with ARU on this study which focuses on music therapy to address the emotional challenges of family caregivers of people with Huntington’s disease. As a practising clinician, she has specialisms in brain injury rehabilitation, adoption, dementia, learning disability and hospice care. Having completed her MA Music Therapy training at ARU in 2008, she worked for the Northern Ireland Music Therapy Trust in Belfast, with children with learning difficulties in Chennai, India, for Methodist Homes Association (MHA) in central England, for Chroma Therapies with individual adoption cases, and currently works with Chroma Therapies as a Neurologic Music Therapist at a brain injury rehabilitation unit in Bristol. Evelyn employs an integrative approach in her clinical work. At times, she uses psychodynamic processes at the pre-assessment phase to understand relational or engagement issues with the client. Evelyn seeks to adopt a desire-based approach by putting the client’s choices at the core of the therapeutic journey. She works within the scientific theory model when carrying out her rehabilitation work, seeking to enable the client to benefit from inter-disciplinary working and patient-centred rather than discipline-centred programs. Evelyn's future research interests are related to the field of neuro-disability. They include: Developing musical techniques to address neurologically-induced sensations. Examining music therapy techniques to address speech deficits in stroke patients diagnosed with aphasia. Analysing connections between social issues and acquired brain injury. Developing online music therapy models for carers of people with neurodegenerative conditions. References/links: Bruscia, K.E. (2014) Defining music therapy. 3rd ed. Gilsum, NH: Barcelona Publishers. Rolvsjord, R. (2016) Resource-Oriented Perspectives in Music Therapy. Oxford University Press. Thaut, M. and Hœmberg, V. (2016) Handbook of neurologic music therapy. Oxford: Oxford University Press. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/30015673

Ep 82 Elaine Streeter 01/23/2024

Ep 82 Elaine Streeter Elaine is a BAMT registered clinical supervisor, and consultant lead visitor for the HCPC. She studied piano and composition at GSMD, and trained as a music therapist with Dr Paul Nordoff and Dr Clive Robbins in London. After running the music therapy service at the CDC, Charing Cross Hospital for several years, and completing an MA research thesis in music therapy at the University of York, Elaine was appointed Senior Lecturer at the Roehampton Institute where she developed a new post-graduate course in Music Therapy. Her music therapy practice with children, young people, and adults ran alongside her lecturing work, She trained as a psychodynamic counsellor at the Westminster Pastoral Foundation and taught various aspects of music therapy at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama for many years, including clinical improvisation. Following a Churchill Research Fellowship in the 1980's, Elaine initiated, developed and coordinated the BAMT (formerly APMT) post training supervision scheme for registered music therapists in the UK. She has an established supervision practice working with individual therapists and small group supervision for and supervisors working in the UK and abroad. Previous Roles Acting Head of Music Therapy, Guildhall School of Music and Drama, London. Visiting Professor of Music Therapy Guildhall School of Music and Drama, London. Senior Lecturer in Music Therapy, Clinical Tutor, and Clinical Music Improvisation Tutor, Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge. Head of Music Therapy Training, Senior Lecturer, University of Roehampton UK. Initiator and Coordinator of the Association of Professional Music Therapists* Post-Diploma Supervision Scheme, UK. Music Therapy Group Training Therapist for students studying for Masters in Music Therapy degrees at : Guildhall School of Music and Drama, the Nordoff Robbins Centre London, University of the West of England, and Anglia Ruskin University, Cambridge. Music Therapy Charity Ph,D. Research Fellowship at the University of York. University of York PhD Research Fellowship in Music Therapy, Churchill Fellowship in Music Therapy. Clinical Music Improvisation Tutor, Nordoff Robbins Institute at Southlands College. Head Music Therapist, Child Development Centre, Paediatric Department, Charing Cross Hospital, London. References Streeter, E. et al: The Arts in Psychotherapy 39 (2012) 1–10 'Computer aided music therapy evaluation: Testing the Music Therapy Logbook prototype 1 system' Streeter, E. (2011) 'From Trainee to Practitioner: the supervision of registered music therapists' Chapter 13 in Karen D Goodman's 'Music Therapy Education and Training: from Theory to Practice' Charles C Thomas publisher USA ‘Streeter, E. (2010) ‘Computer-Aided Music Therapy Evaluation: Investigating and Testing the Music Therapy Logbook Prototype I’ Ph,D. Thesis (York) Streeter, E. (2006). What Are We Doing to Ourselves? The Branding of Music Therapy in Academia. In: Hadley, S. (Ed), Feminist Perspectives in Music Therapy. Gilsum, NH: Barcelona Publishers. p.359. Streeter, E. (2001). Making Music with the Young Child with Special Needs: A Guide for Parents. Revised Edition London: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Streeter, E. (1999) Finding a balance between psychological thinking and musical awareness in music therapy theory — a psychoanalytic perspective. British Journal of Music Therapy Streeter, E. (1999) Definition and Use of the Musical Transference Relationship. In: Wigram, T. & De Backer, J. (Eds), Clinical Applications of Music Therapy in Psychiatry. London: Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Chap.15, p.84-90. Streeter, E. (1981).Towards a Theoretical Understanding of Rhythmic Responses in Music Therapy. British Society of Music Therapy. Monograph. Available from: British Association of Music Therapy, UK. Streeter, E. (1979). A Theoretical Background to the Interpretation of Rhythmic Skills, with Particular Reference to the Use of Music Therapy as an Aid to the Clinical Assessment of Pre-School Children. MA Thesis. Department of Music, University of York. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/29574543

Ep 81 Professor Gitta Strehlow 12/19/2023

Ep 81 Professor Gitta Strehlow Prof. Dr. Gitta Strehlow is Professor of Music Therapy at the University of Music and Drama Hamburg in Germany and a Music therapist at the Clinic for Psychiatry and Psychotherapy at the AGAPLESION Bethesda Hospital Hamburg-Bergedorf, Germany. Her research areas include: psychodynamic music therapy, trauma, psychiatry and mentalization. She undertook special education teacher training with music as a subject, University of Hamburg and Hamburg University of Music and Drama (1986-1994), field research in Indonesia exploring gamelan music (1994-1995). She was a teacher at a special school (1997-2000) before embarking on a diploma in music therapy at the University of Music and Theater Hamburg (1997-2000). Practical research: music therapy with sexually abused children and adolescents, Institute for Music Therapy at the University of Music and Theatre Hamburg (Prof. Dr. Decker-Voigt) in conjunction with the association Dunkelziffer e.V. (1997-2005). Self-employed there. Music therapist from 2005. Gitta has been a music therapist at the Clinic for Psychiatry and Psychotherapy at Bethesda Hospital Hamburg-Bergedorf (since 2000). Further training in psychodynamic-imaginative trauma therapy (2002). National and international lecturing and teaching activities (since 2004). Further training in Mentalization-Based-Treatment (MBT) with P. Fonagy and A. Bateman (2007). Her doctorate was entitled "Töne an der Grenze, Interaktionsmuster in der musiktherapeutischen Begegnung mit Patienteninnen, die unter einer Borderline-Pönlichkeitsstörung leiden" (“Tones on the borderline, interaction patterns in music therapy encounters with patients who suffer from borderline personality disorder“). She has also conducted post-doctoral research into Borderline personality disorder patients in music therapy in Belfast in 2015). She has held a part-time professorship "Psychoanalysis/Psychodynamic Theory and Practice" at the Institute for Music Therapy at the Hamburg University of Music and Drama since October 2019. Webpage: PUBLICATIONS Strehlow, G. (2023 in press) Selected contemporary approaches to music therapy in psychiatry. Music & Medicine, Volume 15/ 4 Strehlow, G. (2023) Alliance Rupture in Musiktherapie In. Die Psychotherapie, 68/4, S. 289-295 Strehlow, G. (2023) Hamburg Institute for Music Therapy: A Model for free Improvisation within Psychodynamic Music Therapy. In: K. Goodman (Ed.) Developing Issues in World Music Therapy Education and Training: A Plurality of Views. Charles C. Thomas. P. 49-71. Strehlow, G. (2021) Trust development is essential in music therapy, Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, Vol. 30, No1,97-99. DOI: Strehlow, G. (2021). Trauma, Mentalisierung und künstlerische Therapien, Band Trauma II, Forum für Kunsttherapien, Fachverband für Gestaltende Psychotherapie und Kunsttherapie, Schweiz (S. 13-18) Strehlow, G. (2021). Stichwörter „Borderline-Persönlichkeitsstörung“ und „Mentalisierung“. In: H.-H. Decker-Voigt & E. Weymann (Hg): Lexikon Musiktherapie, 3. Auflage Göttingen u.a.: Hogrefe Verlag, S. 83-88; 340-346. Strehlow, G. & Spitzer C. (2020). Dissoziative Störungen. In U. Schmidt, T. Stegemann, C. Spitzer (Hg.): Musiktherapie bei psychiatrischen und psychosomatischen Störungen. München: Elsevier Urban & Fischer, S. 112-118 Strehlow, G. & Schmidt, U. (2020). Borderline-Persönlichkeitsstörungen. In: U. Schmidt, T. Stegemann, C. Spitzer (Hg.): Musiktherapie bei psychischen und psychosomatischen Störungen. Elsevier Urban & Fischer, S. 135-138 Strehlow, G. (2020). Musiktherapie mit Opfern sexueller Gewalt. In: A.Wölfl & S. Siebert (Hg.). Musiktherapie mit Opfern von Missbrauch und Gewalt. Wiesbaden: Reichert Verlag. S. 47-59 Strehlow, G. (2020). Traumata und deren Auswirkung. In: Spektrum der Musiktherapie. VdM (Verband deutscher Musikschulen). S. 84-86 Strehlow, G. (2019). How Neuro Research supports Music Therapy with Children who have experienced Sexual Abuse. In: Music Therapy Today, open access, music-therapy-today, special issue: Trauma. S. 59-77 (Mentalising) Strehlow, G. (2019): Musiktherapeutische Cochrane Studien im Bereich der Psychiatrie. In: GMS Journal of Arts Therapies – Journal of Art-, Music-, Dance-, Drama- and Poetry-Therapy. GMS J Art Ther 2019;1:Doc04 Strehlow, G. & Hannibal, N. (2019). Mentalizing in improvisational music therapy, In: Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, 28:4, 333-346, DOI: Keller, J.; Strehlow, G.; Wiesmüller, E.; Wolf, H.G. & Wölfl, A. (2018): Methodische Modifikationen für die musiktherapeutische Behandlung von Patientinnen mit Traumafolgestörungen. In: MU, 39(1), S. 12-22 Fenner, F.; Abdelazim, R.; Bräuninger I.; Strehlow, G. & Seifert, S. (2017): Provision of arts therapies for people with severe mental illness. In: Curr Opin Psychiatry, 30, 306 – 311 Strehlow, G. & Schmidt, U. (2017): Musiktherapie bei Patienten mit Borderline-Persönlichkeitsstörung. In PTT, Schattauer 2, S. 129-138. Strehlow, G. (2016). Traumatische Erfahrungen und ihre Behandlungsmöglichkeiten in der Musiktherapie. Musik und Gesundheit, Hg. Decker-Voigt. Wiesbaden: Reichert Verlag. 30, S.14-18 Strehlow, G. & Lindner, R. (2016): Music therapy interaction patterns in relation to Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) patients. In: Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, 2, 134-158. Strehlow, G. & Schmidt, U. (2015). Musiktherapie bei Patienten mit Borderline-Persönlichkeitsstörung – ein Überblick. Musik und Gesundsein, Hg. Decker-Voigt, Wiesbaden: Reichert Verlag. S. 15-21. Strehlow, G. (2014): Förderung der Mentalisierungsfähigkeit in der Gruppenmusiktherapie. Hg. (DMtG) Jahrbuch Musiktherapie. Wiesbaden: Reichert, S. 197-214 Strehlow, G. (2013): Music versus shard. In: Metzner, S. (Ed.): Reflected Sounds. Case Studies from Music Therapy. E-book. Gießen: Psychosozial-Verlag. Übersetzung von 2007 Strehlow, G. (2013): Mentalisierung und ihr Bezug zur Musiktherapie. In: MU, 34(2), S. 135-145 Strehlow, G. (2012): Scham und Musiktherapie bezogen auf die Problematik des sexuellen Missbrauchs. In: MU, 33(3), S. 228-237. Monographie: Strehlow, G. (2011): Töne an der Grenze. Interaktionsmuster in der musiktherapeutischen Begegnung mit Patientinnen, die unter einer Borderline-Persönlichkeitsstörung leiden. Online Veröffentlichung der Dissertation: Strehlow, G. (2009a): Mentalisierung und ihr Nutzen für die Musiktherapie. In: MU, 30(2), S.89-101. Strehlow, G. (2009b): The use of music therapy in treating sexually abused children. In: Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, 18(2), S. 167–183. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/29144608

Ep 80 Georgina Aasgaard 11/28/2023

Ep 80 Georgina Aasgaard Georgina Aasgaard Cellist and Music and Health Practitioner is a Liverpool based Cellist and Music and Health practitioner who has a passion for bringing Music from the concert platform to challenging and more intimate environments. She has 20 years of experience delivering music interventions in a broad range of health and social settings such as hospitals, mental health units, prisons, homes for the elderly as well as community centres for refugees and the homeless. Her practice includes 15-year partnerships with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, Mersey Care NHS Foundation Trust, Alder Hey NHS Foundation Trust and Live Music Now. She has also aworked for 10 years with DadaFest and Drake Music, engaging with people with disabilities through music making and technology . As a musician in residence, she has led innovative and groundbreaking programmes which include both one to one interaction on intensive care units and group work in mental health units. She has co-created recovery courses, co-produced performances, exploring skills such as improvisation, composition, songwriting, music technology, and including employability opportunities. Her activities have been measured through co-evaluation methods and continuous contact with patients and service users. These collaborations have enabled her to draw on her experiences to create context specific training and mentoring programmes. She is currently developing a toolkit for musicians working in healthcare, informed by her collaborative work over the years and her research activities. Georgina was awarded a Pre-doctoral Local Authority Fellowship by the , as a Director of Training and Development Research for Live Music Now, working in partnership with the University of Liverpool to investigate the influence of non-clinical music interventions on mental health. She currently works in close collaboration with at the University of Liverpool aiming to foster critical inquiry, dialogue and creativity to build new knowledge about enabling creative communities through music collaboration and cross-sector partnerships. As part of this collaboration, she has been granted a new (CIP) award funded by the to investigate how collaborations between academics and partners from across different sectors can work to benefit health and wellbeing. Awards and Honorary Fellowship · 05/07/2022: Festival of Learning Awards: Winner of the President’s Award. Music and Mental Health Programme at the Life Rooms, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, Lead musician · 01/02/2021: Liverpool City Region Culture and Creativity Awards: Winner of the Impact Award on Health and Wellbeing Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, Lead Musician · 01/05/2019: Winner of the Merseyside Woman of the Year in the category of Arts, Culture and Media · 01/03/2016: NHS Award in Health and Care - Certificate of Recognition for Commitment to learning in Health and Care · 01/09/2011: University of Liverpool Honorary Fellowship, Music and Wellbeing · 01/09/2010: NHS Positive achievement Award in Mental Health /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/28826948

Ep 79 Katie Bycroft 10/24/2023

Ep 78 Beth Pickard 09/19/2023

Ep 78 Beth Pickard Beth Pickard is a Senior Lecturer, Researcher and PhD Supervisor at the University of South Wales. Her music therapy teaching and practice is heavily informed by her research in Critical Disability Studies. Beth’s research explores how disability is socially constructed, interpreted and represented across disciplines and pedagogy. Beth is a passionate ally, activist and advocate of social justice and anti-oppressive practice. She is also currently a consultant for the National Music Service for Wales on developing access to musical opportunities for children and young people with additional learning needs, a researcher for Live Music Now across a range of projects informed by the Sounds of Intent framework and an evaluator for The Amber Trust's portfolio of inclusive music schemes. Beth is currently involved in a research project with Hilary Davies about the lived experiences of disabled music therapists in the UK, and with counselling psychologist Rachel Davies about service user engagement in curriculum development processes. Luke spoke to Beth in person at USW, Newport, in July 2023. References Low, M. Y. et al., (2023), 'Exploring the Lived Experiences of Young Autistic Adults in Nordoff-Robbins Music Therapy: An Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis', Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, 32(4), p. 341-364. Pickard, B. (2022), ‘The Importance of Collaboration: Valuing the Expertise of Disabled People Through Social Confluence’ in King, H. (Ed), Developing Expertise for Teaching in Higher Education: Practical Ideas for Professional Learning and Development, SEDA / Routledge. pp. 69-84. Pickard, B. (2022), 'Anti-Oppressive Pedagogy as an Opportunity for Consciousness Raising in the Music Therapy Profession: A Critical Disability Studies Perspective', British Journal of Music Therapy, Special Issue: Equality, Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging. 36(1), p. 5-15. Pickard, B. (2020), 'Challenging Deficit Based Discourse in Higher Education Through a Social Connection Model of Disability: A Critical Disability Studies Perspective', PhD by Portfolio, University of South Wales, Available at Pickard, B. (2020), ‘A Critical Reflection on the HCPC Standards of Proficiency for Arts Therapists: A Critical Disability Studies Perspective’, British Journal of Music Therapy, 34(2), p. 82-94, Young, I. M. (2006), ‘Responsibility and Global Justice: A Social Connection Model’, Social Philosophy and Policy, 23(1), p. 102-130. Young, I. M. (1990), Justice and the Politics of Difference, New Jersey: Princeton University Press. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/28056852

Ep 77 Alphonso Archer 08/22/2023

Ep 77 Alphonso Archer Luke spoke to music therapist Alphonso Archer about his career in music, music education, music therapy, and football coaching. This has included big personal challenges, inspiring moments and the development of innovative and creative approaches. Alphonso says: I spent over 25 years immersed in IT, Software, and Artificial Intelligence, building a career rooted in technological expertise. However, a personal diagnosis of prostate cancer and a brain arteriovenous malformation (AVM) in 2016 marked a pivotal moment, guiding me towards the world of music therapy. My transition was also profoundly influenced by my personal experiences. Growing up with a father diagnosed with schizophrenia offered me firsthand insights into the complexities of mental health. My academic exploration in this area led to a dissertation titled "Ambiguities in the Diagnosis of Schizophrenia Amongst Ethnic Minorities", shedding light on mental health nuances within the black community. I trained as a music therapist at the University of the West of England (UWE), graduating with distinction in 2022. As a newly qualified freelance music therapist, I work with neurodiverse children, particularly those with autism and other co-occurring conditions. My therapeutic approach also encompasses adults with autism and those managing mental health challenges. Collaborating with a cancer charity, I facilitate music therapy sessions tailored for those navigating the aftermath of a cancer diagnosis. I am publishing my master's dissertation, which centres on "How Black Men Use Music to Cope with the Psychosocial Symptoms of Their Prostate Cancer Post Treatment". This research underscores my interest and commitment to understanding the intricate connections between music, therapy, race, and health outcomes. At the 2022 European Music Therapy Conference, I had the opportunity to co-present with Dr Kate Jones, who introduced her music therapy toolkit designed for children with selective mutism. I was also involved in workshops and discussions surrounding race and belonging, social dreaming matrix and shared my thoughts on the future trajectory of the music therapy profession. Music has been a constant as a multi-instrumentalist, starting in church and rich experiences such as playing guitar in the Derbyshire Youth Jazz Orchestra to jazz piano lessons with composer and recitalist James Harpham. For over two decades, I have taught piano, guitar and bass, instruments that I've been connected to since my early years. You can contact me via my new website: Twitter: @AlphieArcher /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/27817494

Ep 76 Hilary Davies 07/18/2023

Ep 76 Hilary Davies In this episode, Luke talks to Hilary Davies, with a focus on music therapy and neurodiversity. Hilary Davies is a freelance music therapist currently specialising in working with autistic adults, including recently-diagnosed autistic adults and autistic adults with co-occurring conditions such as complex PTSD. She is also working towards a PhD on the topic of neurodiversity paradigm-informed music therapy practice with autistic people at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, funded by the Guildhall EDI in Music Therapy PhD Studentship. Hilary has also worked in a variety of other music therapy roles, including setting up and leading projects for Music Place North West (in hospice care) and Entelechy Arts. Hilary trained as a music therapist at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, graduating with distinction in 2019. She also studied Music at the University of Cambridge (Gonville and Caius College). Prior to training as a music therapist, Hilary worked as a music teacher and freelance performer for more than a decade. Alongside her research on music therapy with autistic people from a neurodiversity paradigm-perspective (a topic on which she has published as well as presenting at various conferences including BAMT 2021, European Music Therapy Conference 2022, World Music Therapy Congress 2023 and guest lecturing at various universities) Hilary has research interests in music therapy with adults with profound and multiple learning disabilities, and music therapy and disability studies, including the experience of disabled music therapists (she is currently involved in a Music Therapy Charity funded research project on this topic with Beth Pickard). She is the founder and co-ordinator of the BAMT Support Network for Disabled Music Therapists, and advocates in various ways for the increased inclusion and understanding of disabled people within the music therapy profession. Links Amanda Baggs - ‘In My Language’ - References Davies, H. (2022) “Autism is a way of being”: An Insider Perspective on Neurodiversity, music therapy and social justice” in British Journal of Music Therapy 36 (1). Devlin K (2018) “How do i see you, and what does that mean for us? An autoethnographic study” in Music Therapy Perspectives 36(2). Harris, T. A. (2012). I'm OK, you're OK. Random House. Milton, D. (2012) “On the ontological status of autism: the ‘double empathy problem’” in Disability & Society 27 (6) Pickard B, Thompson G, Metell M, Roginsky E., Elefant C. (2020) “‘It’s Not What’s Done, But Why It’s Done’: Music therapists’ understanding of normalisation, maximisation and the neurodiversity movement” in Voices: A World Forum for Music Therapy 20(3) Price, D (2022) Unmasking Autism: The Power of Embracing our Hidden Neurodiversity New York: Penguin Random House Singer, J (1998 / 2017) NeuroDiversity: The Birth of an Idea. Kindle Edition. Shiloh, C.J. & Blythe Lagasse, A. (2014) “Sensory Friendly Concerts: A community music therapy initiative to promote Neurodiversity” in International Journal of Community Music 7 (1) Walker, N. (2012) “Throw Away the Master’s Tools: Liberating Ourselves from the Pathology Paradigm” in J. Bascom (ed.)Loud Hands: Autistic People, Speaking Washington: Autistic Self-Advocacy Network. Walker, N. (2021) Neuroqueer Heresies: Notes on the Neurodiversity Paradigm, Autistic Empowerment, and Postnormal Possibilities Fort Worth: Autonomous Press. Winter P (2012) Loud hands and loud voices. In: Bascom J (ed.) Loud Hands: Autistic People, Speaking. Washington, DC: Autistic Self-Advocacy Network. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/27486576

Ep 75 Robert Mitchell 06/20/2023

Ep 75 Robert Mitchell Luke spoke to the musician Robert Mitchell about his life as a creative artist and the importance of music and other arts to society and, more broadly, for humankind. Robert Mitchell is one of the most significant voices in British jazz. Multi-faceted creator, pianist, keyboardist, composer, improviser, writer, poet and so much more. He is a relentless seeker and thinker, encompassing many art forms, musical genres and constantly pushing the envelope. In the last year he has released the extremely contrasting albums “Hold The Light/The New Resistance' DOF004 (from his unit TRUE THINK) and 'Towards The Flame' 577 Records (from the improv trio The Flame). He has released 13 albums. Robert is a throwback to the powerful tradition of artistic mastery in pursuit of transcendence. He is proud to have been a Steinway artist since 2009. He was MD on the successful BBC4 television programme ‘Jazz 625 Live: For One Night Only’ which won the British Broadcasting Award. He has played with Billy Harper, Greg Osby, Courtney Pine CBE, Alicia Olatuja, Orphy Robinson, Steve Coleman, Phil Ranelin, Omar Puente, Ernesto Simpson, Daymé Arocena, Jason Rebello, Shirley Smart, Basement Jaxx, Dub Colossus, Daniel Casimir, Joshua Redman, Jacqui Dankworth MBE, and many others. Robert Mitchell’s works have been performed by the Grammy-winning Bournemouth Symphony Chorus and the London Sinfonietta, amongst others. He is a sought-for composer and known as an innovator with a distinct, unique voice. Robert has performed solo piano since the 90s. Recent concerts include Romania, Derby, Coventry, London with more on the way this year in Newcastle, Brighton and Bristol. His 2020 album The Rainbow Mountain/Can We Care' - was a near 40 min improvisation (completed with one of his original songs - live at the Jazz Cafe, London). Solo performances now include original music, Classical, Jazz, improvisations, left hand only, inside piano and poetry. He releases his second collection of poetry later this year - on Common Tone Press. Robert is a Professor of Jazz Piano (Guildhall School Of Music And Drama), Piano Lecturer (Leeds Conservatoire) and Piano teacher at YMM. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/27194259

Ep 74 Preet Kalsi 05/23/2023

Ep 74 Preet Kalsi Luke spoke to Preet Kalsi about her musical upbringing, and her training and subsequent work as a music therapist. The conversation also explored the relationship between psychodynamic and indigenous perspectives in her work. Gurpreet Kaur Kalsi is from Sabah, Malaysian Borneo, and of Punjabi and Kadazan (Indigenous to Sabah) heritage. She is a music therapist and GIM therapist. She works with clients of all ages with psychiatric and medical conditions in healthcare, community, education, and corporate settings. Her work navigates psychodynamic approaches with culture and Indigenous concepts towards the dynamics of life and healing within oneself, the community, and the environment. She has recently begun incorporating EMDR with music therapy and GIM in the treatment of trauma. Instruments referred to during the conversation - the knobbed gongs that are played communally. It accompanies the Sumazau dance at Pesta Magavau, the rice Harvest Festival in May, and at all social events and gatherings. - the sompoton. played by blowing and drawing air. - the tongkungon - a bamboo zither for playing the 'tagung' (gong) rhythm pattern. The strings are bamboo strips cut from the bamboo node. References Colonialism and Music Therapy Interlocutors (CAMTI) Collective (2022) Colonialism and Music Therapy. Barcelona Publishers. Pugh-Kitingan, Jacqueline. (2014). Balancing the Human and Spiritual Worlds: Ritual, Music and Dance Among Dusunic Societies in Sabah. Yearbook for Traditional Music, 46:172-192. Pugh-Kitingan, Jacqueline, Hanafi Hussin & Judeth John Baptist. (2009). Symbolic Interactions between the Seen and the Unseen through Gong Music and Dance in the Lotud Mamahui Pogun. Borneo Research Journal, 3:221-237. Pugh-Kitingan, Jacqueline, Hanafi Hussin & Judeth John Baptist. (2009). A Conduit Between the Seen and Unseen: Comparing the Ritual Roles of Drumming and Gong Ensemble Music in the Mamahui Pogun of the Lotud of Tuaran and the Monogit of the Kadazan of Penampang, Sabah. Tirai Panggung. Jurnal Seni Persembahan, 9:98-123. Pugh-Kitingan, Jacqueline & Judeth John Baptist. (2009). Music for Cleansing the Universe—Drumming and Gong Ensemble Music in the Mamahui Pogun Ceremonies of the Lotud Dusun of Tuaran, Sabah, Malaysia. Borneo Research Bulletin. 40:249-276. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/26927850

Ep 73 Giorgos Tsiris 04/18/2023

Ep 73 Giorgos Tsiris This episode is Luke's conversation with Giorgos Tsiris, with a focus on spirituality and music therapy. Born and raised in Athens, Greece, Giorgos moved to London in 2007 for his music therapy training. For the past 14 years, he has worked as a music therapist in diverse palliative care contexts for adults with incurable illnesses, their families and their local communities. He has developed collaborative community and intergenerational projects disrupting societal assumptions about death and dying, and his work has received national awards and informed similar arts initiatives internationally. Alongside his practice, Giorgos has a multifaceted research portfolio with extensive experience in issues pertaining to service evaluation and professionalisation in music therapy and within the wider field of arts and health, and in 2014 he co-authored two books on service evaluation and research ethics respectively. His doctorate focused on spirituality and its place in music therapy. Through an ethnographic lens, his research has brought to the fore the ‘doing’ of spirituality, its messiness and its performance within everyday music therapy contexts. Giorgos is the founding editor of Approaches: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Music Therapy, and in 2022 he co-chaired the 12th European Music Therapy Conference. He currently serves as Senior Lecturer in Music Therapy at Queen Margaret University and the Arts Lead at St Columba’s Hospice Care, Edinburgh, Scotland. References: Bucar, L. (2022). Stealing my religion: Not just any cultural appropriation. Harvard University Press. MacKian, S. (2012). Everyday spirituality: Social and spatial worlds of enchantment. Palgrave Macmillan. Tsiris, G. (2017). Music therapy and spirituality: An international survey of music therapists’ perceptions. Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, 26(4), 293-319. Tsiris, G. (2018). Performing spirituality in music therapy: Towards action, context and the everyday (Doctoral dissertation, Goldsmiths, University of London). Tsiris, G. (2021). Tracing spirituality in everyday music therapy contexts: Methodological reflections. In K. Hendricks & J. Boyce-Tillman & (Eds.), Authentic connection: Music, spirituality and wellbeing (Chapter 10). Peter Lang. Tsiris, G., & Ansdell, G. (2019). Exploring the spiritual in music. Approaches: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Music Therapy, 11(1), 3-8. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/26530848

Ep 72 Dr Dwight Turner 03/14/2023

Ep 71 Denise Wong 02/21/2023

Ep 70 Inge Nygaard Pedersen 01/18/2023

Ep 69 Revd Jide Macaulay 12/20/2022

Ep 68 Hakeem Leonard 11/22/2022

Ep 68 Hakeem Leonard “We’re doing music therapy because of people’s humanity, not because of what people lack” Luke spoke to Hakeem Leonard at the EMTC conference, Queen Margaret University, Edinburgh, in June 2022. Hakeem Leonard is an Associate Professor of Music Therapy and the Assistant Provost for Inclusion, Diversity, and Equity at Shenandoah University in Winchester, Virginia (United States). In his music therapy role, he has taught a range of courses, but most enjoys his social justice in music/arts and psychology of music courses, where the nexus of his current research focus lies in developing a desire-based, lifespan developmental framework to shape education, training, and personhood in and beyond music therapy. His published scholarship includes rehabilitation work as well as work rooted in anti-racist and culturally sustaining perspectives. Those include the article “The Problematic Conflation of Justice and Equality: The Case for Equity in Music Therapy” and his most recent co-authored chapter in the new Colonialism and Music Therapy text. He has a passion for walking alongside students in their developmental growth process as culturally reflexive, confident, whole persons, with excellent music therapy knowledge and skills. He likes to stay grounded through various practices of listening and to experience joy through rest, creating things, and vibing with experiences and people. He is invested in conversations of anti-colonial and anti-oppressive practice from a place of intuition, desire, sustenance, love, wholeness, and relationship. He is active on Instagram (@musicallman) where he shares about life, music therapy, and inclusion. References Devlin, K. (2018). How do I see you, and what does that mean for us? An autoethnographic study. Music Therapy Perspectives, 36(2), 234-242. Dissanayake, E. (1993). Homo aestheticus: Where art comes from and why. University of Washington Press. Du Bois, W. E. B. (1903). The souls of black folk. Chicago: McClurg. Fisher, C. & Leonard, H. (2022). Unsettling the classroom and the session: Anticolonial framing for Hip hop music therapy education and clinical work. In CAMTI Collective, Colonialism and music therapy (p. 305-334). Barcelona Publishers. Kenny, C. (2014, March). The field of play: An ecology of being in music therapy. In Voices: A World Forum for Music Therapy, 14(1). The Colonialism, & Music Therapy Interlocutor’s (CAMTI) Collective. (2022). Colonialism and Music Therapy. Barcelona Publishers. Trondalen, G. (2016). Relational music therapy: An intersubjective perspective. Barcelona Publishers. Persons Referenced Clifford K. Madsen Jayne Standley Tom Sweitzer /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/25048734

Ep 67 Penny Rogers 10/18/2022

Ep 66 Victoria Clarke 09/20/2022

Ep 65 Tilly Mütter interviews students at #emtc2022 08/17/2022

Ep 64 Simon Purcell 07/20/2022

Ep 64 Simon Purcell Jazz pianist, composer and educator, Simon Purcell came to prominence during the UK jazz boom of the 1980s. After working in East London schools, as a passionate music educator and thinker, Simon has been active in the conservatoire sector since 1985, first as a senior lecturer at GSMD between 1987-2005, Head of Jazz at Trinity Laban Conservatoire of Dance and Music between 2005-2017 and returning to GSMD as International Chair in Improvisation in 2018. He has contributed to the development of jazz education in the UK for many years and in 2006 was awarded Jazz Educator of the Year by the All Party Parliamentary Jazz Appreciation Group. Simon was a member of the Working Group for the Pop and Jazz Platform within the Association of European Conservatoires (2009-2018) and his research into teacher-development in jazz education was published by Ashgate in 2005. His work in jazz education has taken him to Brazil, China, New Zealand and many parts of Europe and current research interests are: teacher-education in jazz, jazz within wider music education and neurologically informed pedagogy. For more information see Luke spoke with Simon in March 2022. Taking face to face in an actual room, they discussed improvisation and how to teach it, comparing perspectives in music therapy and jazz education. How is music experienced? What are the best ways to understand it? And how would you go about teaching improvisation badly? References Green, B., & Gallwey, W. T. (1987). The inner game of music. Pan Macmillan. Helding, L. (2020). The musician's mind: Teaching, learning, and performance in the age of brain science. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. McCrary, J. M., Altenmüller, E., Kretschmer, C., & Scholz, D. S. (2022). Association of Music Interventions With Health-Related Quality of Life. JAMA, (3) Paton, R. (2011) Lifemusic: Connecting People to Time. Archive Publishing. Werner, K., & Aebersold, J. (1996). Effortless mastery. New Albany, IN: Jamey Aebersold Jazz. /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/23756882

Ep 63 Karan Casey 06/22/2022

Ep 63 Karan Casey Karan Casey Does Singing Songs Make a Difference? This episode is a recording of Karan Casey’s keynote presentation at the close of the conference of the European Music Therapy Confederation in Edinburgh, 8-12 June 2022. Karan talked about songs and social justice, arts practice research, and about her own life and experiences as a performer and campaigner on social issues. She performed a number of songs as part of the presentation, and then had a conversation with Luke Annesley to explore these issues further. It was an inspiring ending to a varied and exciting conference. About Karan: Singing songs charged with a sense of social responsibility in a career spanning over 25 years Karan Casey has released eleven albums as well as contributing to numerous other artists’ projects – appearing on more than 50 albums in total. She has toured extensively throughout North America, Europe and Japan, performing with her own band as well as collaborating with such diverse musicians as Maura O’Connell, James Taylor, Bela Fleck, Boston Pops Orchestra, Kate Ellis, Niall Vallely, Pauline Scanlon, The Chieftains, The Dubliners, Peggy Seeger, Karen Matheson, Mick Flannery, Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin, Tim O’Brien, Solas and Lúnasa. In 2018 Karan helped found FairPlé which is an organization aimed at achieving fairness and gender balance for female performers in Irish traditional and folk musics. Karan tours with her band Niamh Dunne, Sean Óg Graham and Niall Vallely. Karan’s most recent album Hieroglyphs That Tell the Tale was released on the Vertical Records Label. Her song “Down in the Glen” was nominated for Best Original Folk Song at the RTE Folk Awards 2019 and she completed a . Karan has recently performed her new show with Director Sophie Motley called I Walked into My Head which was premiered at the Kilkenny Arts Festival 2021. Karan is currently working on a new stage show to be produced at the Everyman Theatre in Cork in early 2023 as well as an album of new songs about women in the Irish revolutionary period. Please note: As we are awaiting permission to include the performance of 'The King's Shilling' in this episode, here is a . Reviews of Karan's music: "Karan Casey’s latest album is revelatory. She’s always been a singer of songs that tell a story and show their muscle…This is a strikingly three-dimensional work that stands the test of intensive and repeated listening with ease. A vivid and dazzling snapshot of Casey invincible, at the height of her powers.” Siobhán Long, Irish Times “Casey’s voice is among the loveliest in folk music and she’s a wonderful interpreter of both contemporary and traditional material.” BOSTON GLOBE “Karan Casey's latest solo venture is a thing of rare beauty.” SING OUT "The most soulful singer to emerge in Irish traditional music in the past decade." THE GLASGOW HERALD “If ever any doubt existed about who's the best Irish traditional woman singer today, "Exiles Return" sweeps aside all pretenders…Karan Casey has no vocal peer.” IRISH ECHO Songs Siúil a Rúin (trad.) The King's Shilling (Ian Sinclair) Rocks of Bawn (trad.) Ballad of Accounting (Ewen MacColl) I'm Still Standing Here (Janis Ian) Hear How the Music it Heals (trad.) Bog Braon (trad.) Other links and references: Casey, K. (2017, September). In Voices: A World Forum for Music Therapy (Vol. 17, No. 3). Davis, A. Y. (2011). Blues Legacies and Black Feminism: Gertrude Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, and Billie Holiday. Vintage. Lyrics Siúil a Rúin I wish I was on yonder hill 'Tis there I would sit and cry my fill Until every tear it would turn a mill Is go dté tú mo mhúirnín slán I would sell my rock, I would sell my reel I would sell my only spinning wheel For to buy my love a sword of steel Is go dté tú mo mhúirnín slán Siúil, siúil, siúil a rúin Siúil go sochair agus siúil go ciúin Siúil go doras agus éalaigh liom Is go dté tú mo mhúirnín slán And now my love he has gone to France To try his fortune to advance And if he returns, 'tis but a chance Is go dté tú mo mhúirnín slán Siúil, siúil, siúil a rúin Siúil go sochair agus siúil go ciúin Siúil go doras agus éalaigh liom Is go dté tú mo mhúirnín slán I wish, I wish, I wish in vain I wish I had my heart again And it’s vainly I think that I would not complain Is go dté tú mo mhúirnín slán The King’s Shilling Oh my love has left me with bairnes twa And that's the last of him I ever saw He's joined the army and marched to war He took the shilling He took the shilling and he’s off to war Come laddies come, hear the cannons roar Take the King's shilling and you’re off to war Well did he look as he marched along With his kilt and sporran and his musket gun And the ladies tipped him as he marched along He sailed out by He sailed out by the Broomielaw The pipes did play as he marched along And the soldiers sang out a battle song March on, march on, cried the Captain gay And for King and country For King and country we will fight today Come laddies come, hear the cannons roar Take the King's shilling and we're off to war The battle rattled to the sound of guns And the bayonets flashed in the morning sun The drums did beat and the cannons roared And the shilling didn't seem Oh the shilling didn't seem much worth the war Come laddies come, hear the cannons roar Take the King's shilling and we're off to war Well the men they fought and the men did fall Cut down by bayonets and musket ball And many of these brave young men Would never fight for Would never fight for the King again Come laddies come, hear the cannons roar Take the King's shilling and we're off to war Come laddies come, hear the cannons roar Take the King's shilling and you’ll die in war Rocks of Bawn Come all ye loyal heroes wherever you may be. Don't hire with any master till you know what your work will be You will rise up early from the clear day light till the dawn and you never will be able for to plough the Rocks of Bawn. Rise up, gallant Sweeney, and give your horse some hay And give them a good feed of oats before they stray away Don't feed them on soft turnip put them out on your green lawn Or they never will be able for to plough the Rocks of Bawn. My curse upon you, Sweeney boy, you have me nearly robbed You're sitting by the fireside with your dúidín in your gob You're sitting by the fireside now from clear daylight till the dawn And you never will be able for to plough the Rocks of Bawn My shoes they are worn and my stockings they are thin My heart is always trembling for fear they might give in My heart is always trembling from the clear daylight till the dawn And I never will be able for to plough the Rocks of Bawn. I wish the Queen of England she would call for me in time And place me in some regiment all in my youth and prime I'd fight for Ireland's glory from the clear daylight till dawn And I never would return again to plough the Rocks of Bawn. Ballad of Accounting In the morning we built the city In the afternoon walked through its streets Evening saw us leaving We wandered through our days as if they would never e All of us imagined we had endless time to spend We hardly saw the crossroads And small attention gave To landmarks on the journey from the cradle to the grave, cradle to the grave, cradle to the grave Did you learn to dream in the morning? Abandon dreams in the afternoon? Wait without hope in the evening? Did you stand there in the traces and let them feed you lies? Did you trail along behind them wearing blinkers on your eyes? Did you kiss the foot that kicked you? Did you thank them for their scorn? Did you ask for their forgiveness for the act of being born, act of being born, act of being born? Did you alter the face of the city? Did you make any change in the world you found? Or did you observe all the warnings? Did you read the trespass notices did you keep off the grass? Did you shuffle off the pavement just to let your betters pass? Did you learn to keep your mouth shut, Were you seen and never heard? Did you learn to be obedient and jump to at a word, jump to at a word, jump to at a word? Did you ever demand any answers? The who, the what or the reason why? Did you ever question the setup? Did you stand aside and let them choose while you took second best? Did you let them skim the cream off and then give to you the rest? Did you settle for the shoddy? Did you think it right To let them rob you right and left and never make a fight, never make a fight, never make a fight? What did you learn in the morning? How much did you know in the afternoon? Were you content in the evening? Did they teach you how to question when you were at the school? Did the factory help you grow, were you the maker or the tool? Did the place where you were living Enrich your life and then Did you reach some understanding of all your fellow men, all your fellow men, all your fellow men? I’m Still Standing Here See these lines upon my face They’re a map of where I’ve been In the deep they are traced a deeper life has settled in How do we survive living out our lives I wouldn’t trade a line make it smooth or fine Or pretend that time stands still I want to rest my soul here where it can grow without fear Another line another year I’m still standing here See these marks upon my skin They’re the lyric of my life Every story that begins Means another ends in sight Only lover’s understand Skin just covers who I am I wouldn’t trade a line make it smooth or fine Or pretend that time stands still I want to rest my soul here where it can grow without fear Another line another year I’m still standing here See these bruises see these scars Hieroglyphs that tell the tale You can read them in the dark Through your fingertips like braille I wouldn’t trade a line make it smooth or fine Or pretend that time stands still I want to rest my soul here where it can grow without fear Another line another year I’m still standing here /episode/index/show/jazztoad/id/23458241

Ep 62 Lesley Schatzberger 05/18/2022

Music Therapy Conversations

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