The Resilient Lawyer with Jeena Cho
Practical and actionable information you can use to be a better lawyer. The Resilient Lawyer podcast is inspired by those in the legal profession living with authenticity and courage. Each week, we share tools and strategies for finding more balance, joy, and satisfaction in your professional and personal life! You'll meet lawyers, entrepreneurs, mentors and teachers successfully bridging the gap between their personal and professional lives, connecting the dots between their mental, emotional, physical and spiritual selves. This podcast is about ordinary people making an extraordinary difference.
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[Mindful Pause Sample] Day 2!
11/19/2019
[Mindful Pause Sample] Day 2!
Discount Code: Resilient2020
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Introducing Daily 0.1 Hour Pause and other goodies!
11/19/2019
Introducing Daily 0.1 Hour Pause and other goodies!
Mindful Pause discount code: resilient2020
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RL 122: Sona Tatiyants — Build the Law Firm You Want to See in the World
09/02/2019
RL 122: Sona Tatiyants — Build the Law Firm You Want to See in the World
In this episode, I am excited to have on Sona Tatiyants to talk about building and growing her all-female law firm while navigating life changes. Sona is the founder of Lynk Law, Inc., a law firm (including an all-female staff of seven) dedicated to servicing families and businesses with their estate planning needs. She is also a co-founder of and a board member of the Glendale Education Foundation. In addition to an incredibly rewarding career, Sona is most proud of being part of her local community with her husband Alex and their two young daughters, Emily and Elis. Topics Covered Creating a practice that you want, and why and how she started her law practice nine years ago after transitioning out of a toxic work environment. Changing gears in your practice - as her life and priorities change so does her practice. She gives us an inside look into what her practice looked like when she started, and what it looks like now. How pursuing her passion has made her a better lawyer, and how she has incorporated baking into her practice of law. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 121: Rielly Karsh — Reframing the Label "Just a Mom"
08/05/2019
RL 121: Rielly Karsh — Reframing the Label "Just a Mom"
In this episode, I am excited to have on Rielly Karsh to talk about reframing the conversation around politics and motherhood, and why having more moms in positions of leadership matters. Mom motivator and kid wrangler, Rielly is a former attorney, photographer, and passionate community leader. Lately, she answers to mom and councilwoman. An elected official in Clinton, NJ, where she lives with her husband and two kids, Rielly is dedicated to increasing the political engagement of moms at every level of the political landscape, helping them "run like a mother." Topics Covered Her journey running for office and why having more moms in positions of leadership matter. Why we need more moms to run for office AND serve in leadership roles on campaigns, and how to deal with the nagging feelings of self-doubt. How the process of running for office starts, and what tools Moms Running offers to women to get more moms to run for office. How we help moms and society see beyond the label "just a mom," and see value in who they are and what they do. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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Bonus Episode: Quieting the Negative Inner Chatter
07/29/2019
Bonus Episode: Quieting the Negative Inner Chatter
In this bonus episode, I share 3 concrete strategies for working with the negative inner chatter or the "inner critic." Please join me for my 6 week 20-minute Beyond Anxiety Workshop from 10:30 – 10:50 AM PST starting Monday, August 5th. I’ll be sharing with you with concrete strategies you can immediately implement and each class will have a short exercise that you can do throughout the week. Register here:
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Bonus Episode: Soothing the Anxious Mind
07/25/2019
Bonus Episode: Soothing the Anxious Mind
In this bonus episode, I share how to use the body scan meditation to soothe the worried and anxious mind. Please join me for my 6 week 20-minute Beyond Anxiety Workshop from 10:30 – 10:50 AM PST starting Monday, August 5th. I’ll be sharing with you with concrete strategies you can immediately implement and each class will have a short exercise that you can do throughout the week. Register here:
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RL 120: Jessica Hylton-Leckie — From Law to Food Blogging: How She Transitioned Careers and What Law Taught Her About Starting Her Business
06/17/2019
RL 120: Jessica Hylton-Leckie — From Law to Food Blogging: How She Transitioned Careers and What Law Taught Her About Starting Her Business
In this episode, I am excited to have Jessica Hylton-Leckie on to talk about her journey from law to food blogging, and the resiliency of being a black female entrepreneur. Jessica is the author of the online cookbook "," which helps readers easily transition to a plant-based lifestyle. She is also the founder of , a multi award-winning vegetarian and vegan recipe website, sharing hundreds of whole foods recipes. Jessica has been featured in numerous interviews and websites, including ESSENCE's July 2017 issue, The Huffington Post, SELF magazine, Buzzfeed, Yahoo! Food, and many more. Topics Covered Her history in law and baking, what switching from law to food blogging looked like for her, as well as what her business model and average day looks like. How she successfully switched, unexpected challenges she came across, and how she found her tribe and community. The different aspects and skills that go into being a blogger, and how she finds herself using the skills she learned in law school in her business every day. Find out more about Jessica at: Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 119: Katy Young — Cannabis Law and IVF: How She Stayed On Top of Managing Her Caseload While Undergoing IVF Treatments
06/03/2019
RL 119: Katy Young — Cannabis Law and IVF: How She Stayed On Top of Managing Her Caseload While Undergoing IVF Treatments
In this episode, I am excited to have on Katy Young to continue our parenting series on what her IVF treatment journey looked like while managing her firm and caseload. Katy represents plaintiffs and defendants in business and real estate disputes, including matters for cannabis industry litigants. She graduated from University of the Pacific, and then she went to University of San Francisco for law school. She is a Rising Star for 2014 through 2019. In 2018, she was named to Benchmark Litigation's . She is also the President of the . Topics Covered Both how she found herself working in cannabis law and what that growing segment of law looks like from the inside. What infertility treatments look like while practicing law, and dealing with the associated impatience while having a breast cancer scare that postponed her treatments. How she balanced running her firm, managing her caseload, and the emotional energy that it takes to go through IVF at the same time. Find out more about Katy at: Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 118: Allison Holzman — Balancing Family Law and Being a Single-By-Choice Mother
05/20/2019
RL 118: Allison Holzman — Balancing Family Law and Being a Single-By-Choice Mother
In this episode, I am excited to have on Allison Holzman to continue our parenting series on her journey balancing her career in family law and her 2 sons as a single-by-choice mother. Allison is an attorney at Weinberger Divorce and Family Law Group, a midsize firm in New Jersey. She has been practicing for nearly 18 years and has focused exclusively on family law since 2002. Allison is also a single mom by choice to two adorable boys, ages 2 and 3 months, who make sure her life is never boring. When she isn't running after her boys, she enjoys pilates, Netflix, and warm chocolate chip cookies! Topics Covered Being a single mom by choice as a practicing attorney and the steps one would take in starting down a single mom by choice path. Single mom does not just mean "get some sperm" - Allison goes into the online dating-like process of finding a donor and the many facets of control she had in deciding on the best candidate. Strategies for coping with the loss of pregnancies, and dealing with the waiting and rising out-of-pocket costs. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 117: Nancy Giles — From Big Law to Co-Parenting: Being a Happy Litigator, Mother, and Business Owner
05/06/2019
RL 117: Nancy Giles — From Big Law to Co-Parenting: Being a Happy Litigator, Mother, and Business Owner
In this episode, I am excited to have on Nancy Giles to talk about her journey from big law to starting her own practice and balancing running a practice as a parent. Nancy created Giles Law, PLLC to support, advise, and represent businesses facing legal issues and conflicts. Nancy considers herself a member of her firm's clients' teams, staying in close contact with them to keep their goals and strategies in focus. Equipped with 20 years of experience in commercial litigation, Nancy and her team use inventive and efficient solutions to create exceptional results. Topics Covered Starting out in "Big Law," looking back on the major differences between the different types of law practices, and what her transition looked like. How she ended up being a happy litigator, happy mother, and happy business owner. How her personal journey affected her work and both how she found herself co-parenting and what that looks like for her. What advice she would give to other lawyers feeling stuck, uninspired, or worse. Find the 1-hour webinar on relaxing the thinking mind at Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 116: Lauren Brunswick — Balancing Practicing Law and IVF Treatments: An Inspiring Story of Determination and Mental Fortitude
04/15/2019
RL 116: Lauren Brunswick — Balancing Practicing Law and IVF Treatments: An Inspiring Story of Determination and Mental Fortitude
In this episode, I am excited to have on Lauren Brunswick to continue to explore parenthood, IVF treatments, and the different, individual journeys we find ourselves on in navigating parenthood as practicing attorneys. Lauren is corporate counsel at a national nonprofit organization. She previously practiced law with a large international law firm and a boutique law firm. She is a graduate of Brown University and the University of Pennsylvania School of Law. She lives in Miami with her husband and one-year-old miracle baby, Isabella. Topics Covered Her story on wanting to have a child, navigating the "lawyer timeline" of building her career, and continuing to practice while trying to start and be present with a family. Things she wished she knew before she started her fertility journey - what would she tell her younger self? Tips for navigating the world of fertility treatments while practicing law. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 115: Stephanie Holland — Finding the Right Law Market to Fit Your Family
04/01/2019
RL 115: Stephanie Holland — Finding the Right Law Market to Fit Your Family
In this episode, I am excited to have on Stephanie Holland to talk about career, home, and personal changes to revolutionize what the modern working lawyer parent looks like. Stephanie is a labor and employment attorney with Ernest Law Group in Virginia Beach. She practiced law in Washington, DC for 11 years, then left a stable, well-paying job last summer to build a practice from scratch in Virginia, and find a path with a balance between work and home life. Topics Covered Changing legal markets from a large city to a much smaller market. Going from a salaried position at a mid-sized firm to an "eat what you kill" arrangement, the business model that comes with that arrangement, and what that looks like in terms of balancing work, social, and parenting life. Developing boundaries with work after not having any for years (inspired by having a little one), and realizing you don't want to be like your mentors. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 114: Emily Markos — Fighting Anxiety and Finding Peace Through Mindfulness
02/18/2019
RL 114: Emily Markos — Fighting Anxiety and Finding Peace Through Mindfulness
In this episode, I am excited to have Emily Markos on to talk about fighting anxiety and finding peace through mindfulness. Emily graduated from Rutgers Camden School of Law in 2010. After graduation she clerked in the US District Court in Pennsylvania, and then spent 6 years as a general commercial civil litigator. In 2014 she became a mom, and in 2017 she left private practice to work for the Social Security Administration. She has recently incorporated a mindfulness practice in her life through yoga, and has found a lot of peace and happiness through that practice. Topics Covered Yoga as a mindfulness practice, some misconceptions about yoga, and what to look for if you want to try yoga or if you are looking to deepen your existing practice. Understanding EMDR (eye movement desensitization and reprocessing) and how it is used to help process and reprogram trauma. Some of the common causes of anxiety in lawyers, and discussion on coping skills that can be developed to manage that anxiety and find peace. Postpartum depression and anxiety, erasing the stigma and being open about it. Tips and suggestions to make time for things as a mom and lawyer. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 113: Heather Weigler — Prioritizing Yourself After Motherhood to be a Better You and a Better Lawyer
02/11/2019
RL 113: Heather Weigler — Prioritizing Yourself After Motherhood to be a Better You and a Better Lawyer
In this episode, I am excited to have Heather Weigler to talk about the importance of prioritizing yourself after motherhood - to be a better you and a better lawyer. Heather is a lawyer and stand-up comedian in Portland, Oregon. She works for the Oregon Department of Justice as a Senior Assistant Attorney General, regulating charities and their fundraisers. She also serves on her union's executive committee and volunteers with Oregon Women Lawyers and the Campaign for Equal Justice. She got her start in comedy at a fundraiser for Legal Aid and has since performed in Portland, Los Angeles, Palm Springs, and Las Vegas. Topics Covered Recognizing and dealing with post-partum depression and anxiety, and ways to manage through a regiment of wellness and medication. What work-life balance really means when re-learning to take care of yourself, and reducing the stigma of taking a step back from work so you can regroup and come back at 110%. Finding yourself after motherhood, and how she uses stand-up comedy to be both a better lawyer and a better parent. How she went about forgiving herself for being "imperfect." Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 112: Dineen Wasylik — Utilizing Your "You Time" to Maximize Your Billable Hours
02/04/2019
RL 112: Dineen Wasylik — Utilizing Your "You Time" to Maximize Your Billable Hours
In this episode, I am excited to have Dineen Pashoukos Wasylik on to talk about being an active mother and lawyer, and how utilizing the morning hours can revolutionize your days and allow you to maximize your billable hours. Dineen is the founder of in Tampa, Florida, a boutique intellectual property and appellate litigation firm where her team helps entrepreneurs protect everything that they have worked so hard to create and protects litigants in appellate courts. She is the only lawyer in Florida who is board certified both in intellectual property and in appellate practice. Dineen's husband is also a lawyer-entrepreneur, and they have two teen sons. Topics Covered What her self-care practice looks like and what willing yourself to be a morning person can look like so you can carve out time for your personal health. Fighting the sedentary lawyer nature and utilizing exercise as a key element to mental clarity. Putting yourself first while parenting teens. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 111: Jaime Knepper — Finding Balance: Career Transitions for the Parent Lawyer
01/28/2019
RL 111: Jaime Knepper — Finding Balance: Career Transitions for the Parent Lawyer
In this episode, I am excited to have Jaime Knepper on to talk about how she found balance between her fulfilling career and wonderful family through a transition from law. Jaime is a federal government employee specializing in federal energy market regulation. Her current position is the inverse of her first legal career, advising regulated utilities and pipelines on compliance with federal requirements. Jaime is also married to a wonderful feminist who takes on more than his share of the mental load, and mom to a 3-year-old boy and 11-month-old girl. Topics Covered Deciding if/when to have children, and the difference between not wanting children and wanting children with the right person. How she says she is able to have a fulfilling law career and raise her children due to her supportive husband, and how as lawyers finding the right partner is important for maintaining a work/life balance. Work/life balance – transitioning careers from a law firm to a government position, from the hectic firm to a more family-friendly job. Law school - would she do it again, and advice for people wanting to go to law school. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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[Bonus Episode] Setting Your Intentions
01/22/2019
[Bonus Episode] Setting Your Intentions
Please join me for a 1-hour webinar on January 24th. I’ll go over how mindfulness can help you: Reduce stress and anxiety Boost productivity and focus Reduce mind wandering Let go of negative self-talk Relax the thinking mind Register here:
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RL 110: Jessica Glassburn — Motherhood and Law: Managing Career Transitions with Active Parenting
01/21/2019
RL 110: Jessica Glassburn — Motherhood and Law: Managing Career Transitions with Active Parenting
In this episode, I am excited to have Jessica Glassburn on to talk about juggling career transitions and motherhood. Jessica grew up in Washington D.C. but has spent most of her adult life in the Midwest. She has practiced in family law and worked in law school admissions offices, and currently works as the Program Chair for Paralegal and Legal Studies at Ivy Tech Community College in Fort Wayne, Indiana. She has been happily married for 4 ½ years with an almost 14-year-old, a 2-year-old, and their dog. Topics Covered Career transitions, defining your identity outside of the law, and shifting and balancing your career with family. The trials of online dating, getting married later in life, and dealing with infertility. How her surprise adoption came about and the process of being there for her adopted son's birth. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 109: Jennifer Day — Recognizing How Depression Can Manifest and Staying Vigilant with Self-Care
01/14/2019
RL 109: Jennifer Day — Recognizing How Depression Can Manifest and Staying Vigilant with Self-Care
In this episode, I am excited to have Jennifer Day on to talk about breaking down the stigma that comes with depression and how lawyers are susceptible. Jennifer graduated from law school in 2004. She served as a judicial law clerk in Anchorage, Alaska, then became a prosecutor in 2005 and has never looked back. She has prosecuted a variety of cases, and has also presented on the topic of depression amongst prosecutors across the state of California for the past few years. Her spare time is spent with her family, or you can find her out on a photography adventure. Topics Covered Managing clinical depression with work life, and how much to share at work about being clinically depressed. How depression manifests itself to her, and how she recognizes it. The stigma of discussing depression amongst prosecutors. The difference between compassion fatigue and clinical depression. How it was harder to come out as depressed than it was to come out as gay. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 108: Alexis Robertson — Being Mindful of the Macro and Using Meditation to Combat the Reactive Mind
01/07/2019
RL 108: Alexis Robertson — Being Mindful of the Macro and Using Meditation to Combat the Reactive Mind
In this episode, I am excited to have Alexis Robertson on to talk about the balance of self-care: remaining dutiful to responsibilities without martyring yourself for your work. Alexis is a lawyer turned Diversity and Inclusion professional. She attended the University of Michigan law school and practiced for 7 ½ years at Kirkland & Ellis and Seyfarth Shaw, before leaving practice to become a legal recruiter and subsequently a Diversity and Inclusion professional at Baker & McKenzie. Outside of work, if Alexis isn't listening to a podcast or wrangling her two sons, she can probably be found at her local pilates studio. Topics Covered How big firm lawyers are like pro-athletes and as such, we have to focus on our personal health to perform at our peak. The benefits of receiving formal instruction in meditation (versus self-guided), and the importance of finding a way to meditate that is right for you. The role of meditation/self-care when you have children, and how it helps with combating the knee-jerk reactive mind in stressful situations. Why meditation/mindset is just as important as physical fitness and nutrition. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: Free Webinar Learn to relax the mind, worry less, and decrease stress. MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that so we really appreciate it. Thank you and we look forward to seeing you next week.
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Learn to Relax the Worried Mind
12/18/2018
Learn to Relax the Worried Mind
Please join me for a 1-hour webinar on December 20th. I’ll go over how mindfulness can help you: Reduce stress and anxiety Boost productivity and focus Reduce mind wandering Let go of negative self-talk Relax the thinking mind Register here:
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RL 107: Marcus Shute, Jr. — Redefining the Lawyer Archetype and Self-Honesty
11/05/2018
RL 107: Marcus Shute, Jr. — Redefining the Lawyer Archetype and Self-Honesty
In this episode, I am excited to have Marcus Shute, Jr. on to talk about staying true to yourself and what makes you unique as a lawyer, as compared to the "rubber-stamped" version of what a lawyer should look like. Shute is a sports and entertainment attorney at the Shute Law Office in Nashville, TN. He enjoys leveraging his first-hand experiences and acquired knowledge of the law to shape the legacy of his clients, and his passion for providing legal services for the sports and entertainment industries stems from his love of playing sports and musical instruments. Topics Covered What obstacles he has faced based solely on his appearance, and instances where he has been pressured to alter his appearance or conform. How owning who you are can turn some people off to you, but will help bring you closer to your tribe of those that will be drawn to you. Choosing to enjoy the work you do and shaping your practice in a way that gives you a sense of contentment. How recent tragedies inspired him to overcome some of the intrinsic prejudices his looks can garner in a courtroom and add criminal law to his practice. Learn more and connect with Marcus at: Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:00:01] Inclusion for me began with being able to have a dialogue with somebody and being open with them. And so I use my hair sometimes as a way to start the conversation, to say well let's just challenge these norms that you believe are required to be successful. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today for another episode of the Resilient Lawyer Podcast. I am excited to have Marcus Shute, Jr. on to talk about staying true to yourself and what makes you unique as a lawyer, as compared to the “rubber-stamped” version of what a lawyer should look like. Shute is a sports and entertainment attorney at the Shute Law Office in Nashville, TN. He enjoys leveraging his first-hand experiences and acquired knowledge of the law to shape the legacy of his clients, and his passion for providing legal services for the sports and entertainment industries stems from his love of playing sports and musical instruments. In this episode, we're going to chat about staying true to yourself and perhaps not looking like the rubber stamp version of what a lawyer should look like. I think you'll really enjoy this episode. Before we get into the interview, if you haven’t listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It’s a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don’t have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don’t you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Marcus. Marcus, welcome to the show. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:02:25] Thank you for having me, I’m very excited to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:28] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:02:35] So as you did say, my name is Marcus Shute, Jr. I am a sports and entertainment attorney here in Nashville Tennessee. I’m made of Nashville you know, went to high school here. Moved to Georgia for a brief minute and came back for undergrad and opened up my law practice as soon as I passed the bar. Jeena Cho: [00:02:53] Wow that is a big jump in anxiety. I'm kind of attracted media and want me to chat with you. Is that you all sort of built a brand around you know who you are and especially how you look. So maybe for the listeners out there that, of course, can't speak. Can you just started to describe you know what you look like and what you know your client might see when they come in for their first client interview Jeena Cho: [00:03:50] So you know I certainly remember when I was in law school there was and I went to law school back in the 2000s and there was sort of a lot of talk about you know confirming that you want to look like a lawyer or you want to dress the part. And you know I know that I certainly spent a lot of time sort of trying to look the part I was an assistant state attorney immediately after graduating from law school. And you know when I start and put on a suit and especially because I had to sort of be in the courtroom all the time and I didn't want to be mistaken for you know a court reporter or a Korean language interpreter. So I'm curious you know like Did you ever feel like you felt the pressure to conform you know to cut off your dreads or to cover up your tattoos. Of course, she can't really do much about the color of your skin or your height. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:04:41] Right you're right. Yes. So I did. And actually, it started you know back when I was an undergrad so I was an undergrad in the 2000s and I had a teacher a professor you know say to me that hey if you plan on pursuing your career in law that you're probably going to have to cut your hair. Most law firms won't accept you. And at the time I was a student athlete so I was hoping that I would go pro but it didn't work out that way. So I was still adamant in opposition about why I don't think that I should have to make that change of who I am to fit in or to still practice law. So and also again in law school. I also was told by some teachers there that I should consider changing my hairstyle to fit in to make sure that I'd be able to advance forward in different law firms. So those are things I face. And like you going into courtrooms wanting to make sure that I look the part of an attorney was something I was conscious of because I didn't want my clients you know my potential client in the future to be impacted by somebody presuming that you know I'm not an attorney because I look like I could be a defendant. Jeena Cho: [00:06:00] Right. Well I mean well I guess to back up a little bit. So at what point were you like I am not cutting off my tights and I'm not going to try to look like the rubber stamp fashion of what a billion looks like. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:06:15] I would say in my undergraduate years is kind of when I got that foundation. Now OK this is kind of who I am like most people when they're going through undergrad. You know you're away from your parents is your first time being on your own. So you are learning a lot about yourself. And you know I learned a lot about my history and it was something that is so important for me personally and also it also started conversations so for me you know when we talk about inclusion and I know we'll probably talk about that later but it's inclusion for me began with being able to have a dialogue with somebody being open worker and so I use my hair sometimes as a way to start the conversation to say well let's challenge these norms that you believe are required to be successful. I would say definitely no undergrad. Jeena Cho: [00:08:36] And I think you know do you think the reverse is also how some people are going to look at you look at your Web site and be like Yup he's not only my lawyer. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:08:45] Absolutely. I mean so I mentioned I taught high school so I taught Spanish in government when I taught there. And so you can imagine you know young African-American boys and girls that see somebody who looks like them. They can talk like them but they can also speak another language. And I think that's the same thing that applies to my law practice. When I recruit players or musicians or writers or I go to a writers workshop and my kind of blend in and almost look like I could be one of them and then when I say hey I'm an attorney. Let's talk about you know what you're doing as they do some research and like you said to go to my website and almost immediately feel like they're drawn to me because they can relate to me instantly. Jeena Cho: [00:11:58] You know. Yeah. And especially as lawyers you know there is so much pressure to look the part of a lawyer and that you know and to have a certain type of job and strange type of prestige and you know just on and on and often that's like the end ingredient or unhappiness you know like you. And you can kind of get on that treadmill of just checking all the boxes. But then someplace you look up and you're like wow I'm really unhappy and I think that unhappiness that this content comes from being completely out of touch with yourself you know. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:12:36] So true. So true. Like you know when you are taking the boxes like where I have to do this or I have to drive this type of car I had to practice this type of way where I had to have my office set up this type away and you start running trying to achieve all those goals that you think our goals. And then once you do that you will go back and say wow I'm on the field and that's another thing that you know makes it makes it easier for me to do what I do because I want to enjoy what I do. I wanted to be a passion and I want to feel like I'm just going in punching the clock. I want to you know look forward to every day when I'm getting up to go to work. This is what I'm choosing to do and I enjoy it. Jeena Cho: [00:13:14] So yeah will say more about that about choosing to enjoy the work that you do on shaping your practice in a way that gives you that sense of contentment. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:13:26] So it would help to give a little context of why I chose sports entertainment. I've worked for Fortune 500 companies before been a store manager. And you know I've worked for other companies and help you know reach their goals and metrics and indeed will perform well. But you know I was frustrated because I felt like I was in the field and it didn't bring me joy. It was like oh I did I did something well. I don't feel good about you know what I did. So when I started to look at what area of law I wanted to practice or you know being an attorney period I wanted it to be something that I enjoy doing where there wouldn't be a time where I look up to say I'm frustrated. I'm angry with what I'm doing because if pay if I am then that means I need to refocus on what it is that I chose to do because it's all up to me. [00:14:19] And that's part of the reason why I opted to start my own practice and the law firm as opposed to going to join a big law firm. Although I interviewed I knew that I would be working you know 50 60 hours a week. At the direction of my superiors, whatever case came to the door that you would be my job for the time being. And I learned that if I could find a way to choose the things that I enjoy and it relates to my law practice then it won't feel like work I'll just be challenging myself to be a better version of myself to learn more about certain areas of law and those things have been very helpful. You know it helps keep you away from that thing. We were just talking about checking out those boxes because I'm not looking for accolades because it's my personal enjoyment it's not you know I need a B.A. you know top layer 100 in this area practice because that's not what drives me you know. Jeena Cho: [00:15:20] Yeah. And I always find those warrants are so strange because it's like you pay for it. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:15:29] Right now. Jeena Cho: [00:15:32] Like you're like that and whatever and superstar lawyer and we want you to pass. And in fact, it's like now. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:15:39] Right. Or they give you a tour you go pay a hundred bucks to get Lycett or 250 for this nice little placard 30 50 for a little mini there. And it's like it's you know ego. I don't know how you go. Someone once told me ego means edging God out. And you know just not thinking and the idea that you know it's bigger than you. So what I do is intentional so having my hair like it is having my tattoos like they are is intentional because it's bigger than me it's for those that come behind me so that the obstacles that I face they won't have to. Jeena Cho: [00:16:14] Yeah. Talk a little bit about some of the obstacles that do face because of you know your locks. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:16:21] Yeah. So one particular incident that has kind of been my driving point in WA opened up my practice to criminal law. When I was in law school I interned with a law office and went to court. And when the recess was about to happen the attorney that I was practicing under wanted me to aim once to introduce me to the judge. And so she got the judge's attention and said you know this is Mr. shooty is pregnant under Rule 7 with our office. And the response from the judge in open court was oh I thought that was your client. And it was very disheartening because I had been there all morning had spoken to her on some other Clines cases and so, of course, there were people in the courtroom. So immediately I felt ashamed because of her perception of me and for the beginning of my practice, I didn't do a lot of criminal work because I always would assume that everybody would have her same perception. And so it wasn't until she knows some of the tragedies like Michael Brown Eric Garner happened. I felt inspired to get involved in the criminal justice system and with a law degree what better way than to defend those that are innocent. And so that that would really launch me into it. Now you know I have a very successful you know area of law practice in criminal defense and a lot of that goes to. To me, I think that it helps to change the perception of police officers that I have to question in cross-examination when looking at somebody that normally in their line of work they only are arrested. And now they're having to look at this same type of description that they normally get as an attorney that questions them. So those are some things I'd definitely say some of those obstacles. You know sometimes when I go to different courthouses they don't know that I don't frequent ally sometimes security guards may ask me for my bar card different things like that. But you know just kind of comes with the territory. I've accepted that I will say some of those obstacles. And for me, it's about how I go how I am able to overcome them because I know that someone is always watching and the way that I know proceed through dealing with those obstacles will help somebody else. Jeena Cho: [00:18:44] Yeah. So how do you deal with that? You know how do you deal with watching you know five white Villiers just get way Theriault and then you come up and he's like can I use your marker and I'm presuming you're in a suit like you're in a court and walked it. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:19:00] Absolutely yeah absolutely. Jeena Cho: [00:19:02] How do you deal with that. You said when you say you know I've learned how to overcome those obstacles like what does it look like. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:19:10] So you know the thing to be learned is you can say a lot of things untrue and it's about how you say. So there are some signs where we say speak the truth in love or you know even if you can joke about it a little bit and not take it to heart that they haven't been exposed to a lot of different cultures. For me I was exposed a lot of different cultures and growing up I went to magnet schools and so I learned Spanish at a young age because I was just interested in the culture and because of that, it taught me to respect people that were different from me. Everybody doesn't have that same upbringing. So when you know the security guard say Can I see your bar card as you know out may laugh at him and say Did you forget to ask. You know the other guys are there. And then they may smile sheepishly or something like that and or I may say this new policy that we're doing now. Do we ask everyone you know and if not they try to do it in a way that makes them feel comfortable to wear it? [00:20:18] They will want to respond because then by me asking them that openly question it. It challenges them to give me an answer and they don't want to say oh because you're the black guy because you know you know so you know. But even then a month and then once I do show them your car they never forget me. So that's true and that's why I've learned you know because there were times where I and I have to be honest I'm very transparent. There are times where I didn't respond as well where I would respond with anger and frustration. And I had to learn that that's not the best way for me to handle it. Because what could happen to me. And then too it's a teachable moment for them. So give them the opportunity to learn. Jeena Cho: [00:21:03] Yeah. How do you deal with that, when you're in the courtroom and a juror mistakes you for the defendant? Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:21:10] You know that that was the only time that has happened that I have not had it happened before. I think that now for it at least and most of the courts that are practically in the middle Tennessee area. I've met a lot of the clerks and there are some judges that I haven't been in front of him and some just for good that I have been there from them before there one judge or particular that introduces himself to me every time I mean it's more that I go maybe every two or three months and he's always like Well welcome to the core of this issue in his car just kind of puts her head down like I know I know. [00:21:45] Like we e-mail a lot. So you know sometimes it happens and you know because they're in the position that they're here. You know I always will defer to give them that grace because again at the end of the day I'm advocating for someone else and I have to always keep that in mind. And I want to keep their interest you know at the top of my list. And so you there if there is if it is a time where they say something they do something now wait till the case is concluded and then I'll go speak to the judge in chambers. Jeena Cho: [00:22:18] What do you say when you go into chambers. Marcus Shute, Jr.: [00:22:21] So I'll just ask. You know I got out asked Mike like the one, in particular, that doesn't remember me when we go back to our side. Now I know I don't come here a lot but you know you would think they would be looking at me. You remember me at all the others that come up here and most of the time with their state they laughed like them and said oh you know I just want you know some you know something and I wasn't paying attention. I was looking at the next case or you know and then we just talk about you know other things I use that as an opportunity to advocate for things that I think to change in the law and get their perspective. So sometimes by their mistakes gives me insight and you know gives me a little bit more information that I otherwise may not have got. Had they not made the...
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RL 106: Brittany Allison — Striving for Success that is Coupled with Happiness and Fulfillment
10/29/2018
RL 106: Brittany Allison — Striving for Success that is Coupled with Happiness and Fulfillment
In this episode, I am excited to have Brittany Allison on to talk about how to find joy as a diverse attorney and how to pursue a career you will enjoy. Brittany is a corporate associate at Greenberg Traurig. She focuses on mergers and acquisitions and strategic transactions in healthcare and private equity. Topics Covered Pursuing big changes to build a practice and career you enjoy, that aligns with your skill set, and where you can provide value. What the on-going process of determining how you want your career and practice to look like moving forward can look like. Exercising self-awareness, self-reflection, and purposeful decision-making to find fulfillment in law practice. Building confidence as a diverse attorney. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Brittany Allison: [00:00:03] For me, my mindfulness practice has been very helpful for identifying the feeling that I'm having, and the next step from there is why am I feeling that way. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today. I am so happy to have Brittany Allison. She is a corporate associate at Greenberg Traurig. She focuses on mergers and acquisitions and strategic transactions in healthcare and private equity. Today we're going to chat about how she finds that sense of meaning and purpose in life, and also her experience as a corporate attorney. Before we get into the interview, if you haven’t listened to my last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It’s a preview for my new course, Mindful Pause. So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don’t have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don’t you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Brittany. Brittany, welcome to the show. Brittany Allison: [00:02:00] Thank you so much for having me Jeena. Jeena Cho: [00:02:02] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Brittany Allison: [00:02:09] So as you mentioned I'm currently a transactional attorney at the law firm Greenberg Traurig. I focus on health care and private equity mergers acquisitions and other transaction and I came from a Healthcare Regulatory background. I've worked in-house as well as in law firms. I'm licensed in New York, Washington, D.C. and most recently in Florida. As far as who I am. I'm someone who values both my professional and my outside of work life. I'm someone who strives to make thoughtful and purposeful choices and to pursue success but also happiness and fulfillment. I'm also a diverse attorney and a child of immigrants and for fun I enjoyed venture traveling and being outdoors. Jeena Cho: [00:02:54] Kerry started by chatting about how you go about intentionally creating a career that you enjoy that aligns with your skill sets and also gives you that sense of purpose and value. And that's a really big question. So I guess maybe to start you know at what point did you decide you know this is important to me I'm not going to just let life happen to me but I'm going to be very intentional about how I build a practice that I enjoy. I feel like a lot of lawyers don't really give much thought to that. Brittany Allison: [00:03:29] I think that's exactly right. And I think for me when I was working at a previous law firm it was it was really kind of apparent that we should be thinking about moving forward in business development. You know how we can improve upon our careers. And it just it just kind of hit me that I should really be looking a little bit deeper and if I'm starting to have those conversations professionally I'm starting to have those conversations internally. I really wanted to make sure that I was moving in a direction that I wanted to take my career and that I felt like my career would with my personality with my skills that I would really be able to add value and I could see the kind of the career that I that I had in mind and take the direction. Jeena Cho: [00:04:20] Q I would say more specifically about what that process looks like. Like I think it's one thing to say you know I have decided that having a career that enjoys is important to me. And so I've made those things a priority. But on a day to day or let's say a week to week or even month to month Hector like what doesn't. How does that look? Brittany Allison: [00:04:43] So I started the process really just kind of making the LIST mentally and then making actual physical with of what I enjoyed what I did not enjoy as much the things that interested me the thing that excited me about law practice and some of the things that I was doing that I thought were purposeful and meaningful but did not really fit who I was or where I thought I could add the most value. So you know it's kind of an ongoing process and it is for me a day to day or week to week process to really kind of sit down with myself for maybe an hour a week depending on how busy I am on home and just say just check in with myself and recognize those feelings when for example I'm really excited when a deal closes or. You know I really feel like I use my skills for effective communication throughout the field. It's a process of self-reflection that I think you know can is important to take the time out of your week to sit down and check in with yourself on those things and have that information where you want to take your practice going forward I think we don't always take the time out. You know the time out to sit down with ourselves and go over the things that we're doing sometimes it can kind of be like you're on one of those moving walkways and you just know where you're supposed to be going and you may have metrics for how you can get there and how you can succeed on the path that you're on. But you don't always take the time out to say is this the path I want to be on. Is this something that I'm actually enjoying is this something that I can actually see in terms of a direction from my career or am I just on that moving walkway. Jeena Cho: [00:06:41] You know I often hear from bank law attorneys especially those that are more junior and I think sometimes it can be difficult to find that sense of meaning in them. Especially when you're on a big team and you're working on this huge mega deal so your portion of what you're working on might seem very mundane. Then it's hard to even see the whole picture in terms of how your work contributes to the larger project. So I'm curious if that's an experience that you've had and also how you go about finding meaning and you know in some of the more grindy air projects and I think a lot of lives just like that you know it's just very like grindy. Brittany Allison: [00:07:28] Yeah I mean there is certain kind of days or weeks or months of the project where you may not feel kind of as inspired. But I think the way that you keep that motivation going at least for me I'll be kind of my personal experience is I really love the feeling of being on a team and reaching that finish point and kind of knowing that that's coming. And I think part of finding a practice that that fits your personality is you enjoy a lot of those day to day. And you also are able because you're so interested because you feel like it's a great fit you're able to engage kind of outside of the day today. So you know you're able to take a few minutes out sit down with the shareholder and talk about when you think we'll get to closing or what do you think are some of the big issues that are still on the table or how do you think we're going to be able to solve this problem. Even if you're not the person doing that even if you're are a person, for example, drafting that language or bringing a deal over the finish line if you're engaged and you enjoy what you're doing you know there are those opportunities. And for me, I want to get for that kind of conversation. And you know that that certainly helps me to be motivated and to keep in perspective that. Sure I might not have the biggest role on a certain transaction but I have a role and I'm happy to be part of that team. And I'm interested to learn more about it. Jeena Cho: [00:09:17] Either things that you do outside of work that also gives you that sense of meaning and purpose in life. I also have I know for me at least for the first at least a decade it was just all like kind of work. And as I got older I was like OK. Like I can't expect to work to fill all of those needs that I am a multidimensional human being and not all those other needs. You know creativity or you know that I have to have a sort of hobbies and other things that I do outside of work. So I'm curious how you balance that. Brittany Allison: [00:09:59] Sure absolutely. I'm a nature lover. I recently moved back to Florida and South Florida. I love going to the beach. I love hiking. My last trip was to Colorado to go hiking kayaking in stand up paddleboard. I love getting outside I love being in nature. I also really love spending time with my friends my family and my partner and a lot of times most of the time those conversations have nothing to do with law practice you know and there were other things that we're interested in. So there definitely and know as I mentioned kind of at the beginning I really value my time outside of the office as well. Kind of focus on the focus on some other things and focus on my personal relationship. Jeena Cho: [00:10:50] And they will sort of wrap things up but this question. And you know any now on top of the interview you mentioned that you identify yourself as a first attorney and I am one as well. Now I'm curious how you go about finding your voice or finding that sense of belonging or you know you're just your confidence is that they burst attorney or if you have advice for other papers attorneys out there. Brittany Allison: [00:11:17] I thought a lot about this one because you know you hear a lot about things like impostor syndrome. And I've certainly experienced kind of some of those attacks. And I think everyone goes through moments of insecurity. So I think kind of my advice here is twofold. If you're worried that you can't really relate to someone else you know in a professional environment I have found that ironically enough focusing on the work really helps to start a conversation. So I may not be able to find commonality with someone else kind of just on the outset but I can only talk to that person about their practice. [00:12:06] I can always talk to that person about what it is they're doing what it what it is they're interested in and you know if it's someone you interact with more closely or let's say you're on a transaction with you know you can talk to them about that. And I found that that helps to really open up the conversation and start to build that relationship. You know if you're a little bit nervous that you may not have a lot of things in common with that other individual I've just always found that helpful to come from that place because certainly you can both talk about what you're doing there you know and where you want to take your careers and kind of my second piece of advice. There also is too when you have those willing to really focus on your relationships outside of war. You know I have a strong support system to my friends and my family and my partner. And that really helps to keep things in perspective because a lot of times you know if you're at a big firm or here as an organization and there's a there's great sophisticated work being done. Sometimes you do worry. [00:13:16] And my goodness the people but you can always count on our mom to remind you that you're better than she is. I mean at home and there you know you might be kind of a small fish in a big pond at work but outside of work people can remind you know you're actually great at this or you're actually really interested in and don't get kind of caught up in that environment where you're surrounded by people who are good at it because there's a larger environment where there are other people who you know have not focused on that don't have the same skills that and a lot of times they think you're great you know and I've just been able to anchor myself to my support system outside of work and also and also internally you know I had mentioned before when we spoke previously I believe in meditation a big proponent of meditation. I've found that it's helpful in stressful situations and I have found that help as a practice as a way of just checking in with yourself and talking to yourself and building yourself up when you need it. Those are really kind of the two pieces of advice I would have to give Yeah. Jeena Cho: [00:14:38] I mean I certainly found I curious to hear how it's landed for you is having a regular mindfulness practice gets me out of that really self-destructive and negative way of thinking where I'm constantly thinking like oh I'm not good enough I'm not good enough or I'm not good as these other people especially in like a law firm you know there isn't often that tremendous amount of positive feedback. You know the people in your team might think you're great but they do not necessarily go around and you know consciously tell you how great they are. So I at least for me I found that I was able to when those voices pop up stepped back a little bit and say Is this objectively true or is this just my inner narrator or my inner critic talking and often it was that voice and that you know if I could truly sort of objectively look at the entirety of all the work that I've done and taken the good with the bad and because we had both rights that often I sort of underestimate the good work that I do and places where I do shine like those things just don't matter. It's almost like while I just got lucky by winning that motion or I just got you to know like it wasn't my own doing that. But to that result, versus if something goes wrong then I take it very personally then it's like oh it's because I messed up that we've lost that motion. So you know when you from your mindfulness practice how that helps you to shape it. You know just sort of working with the like in our voices. Brittany Allison: [00:16:18] For me my mindfulness practice has been very helpful for identifying the feeling I'm having. I kind of figured out a couple years ago that I wasn't so great at that, to begin with. You know I could tell I wasn't feeling great but I couldn't really articulate deeper what was going on. And my practice has really helped me to be able to identify right. It's what I'm feeling and kind of the next step from there is why I am feeling that way. Because as you mentioned things can certainly snowball when you get into that kind of negative mindset and you know all of a sudden everything that it was that is your fault. I eat a lot of really take the time to say what am I actually feeling what is actually making me feel that way. And as you mentioned is that true. You know. Is that really true? [00:17:18] And remind me that there's a bigger perspective here. Maybe I made a mistake but maybe I did kind of saying well you know and maybe I'm not you know another big one for me is kind of dealing with learning curves. We don't all know everything you know. And I switched practice areas and there are certain things that I have to learn and I spend a little more time on the catch up to understand slowly just by nature of the fact that some of my colleagues have been doing it you know their whole careers and it's not something I engaged with as much. You know before my current position but I do give myself space to kind of remind myself. All right I may be learning that. Or you know trying to get better at that one thing. But you know what I think been great is the thriller thing. And I think those things provide value in these three ways. And even further I'm going to see if I can find opportunities to contribute that value. So that I feel like a meaningful member of the team even if there's one way. One place where I feel a little weak is not as strong as the rest of the team. I'm going to find a place where I know I can help push us along. And I think that that's part of the mindfulness practice that's part of what self-reflection practice where you just start to really identify the things that you feel like you're really good at or you are uniquely good at or you. You bring to a team. Jeena Cho: [00:19:12] Well Brittany, it was so nice having you here. One final question for you. Before I let you go, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you? Brittany Allison: [00:19:25] Ah, that’s a very good question. To me, a resilient lawyer is someone who takes ownership of their career who is overcoming obstacles or challenges or naysayers whatever the case may be to pursue all the opportunities that they're interested in and build a career that is engaging and fulfilling for that individual. And where that individual can also provide value. Jeena Cho: [00:19:55] Brittany thank you so much. I so enjoyed our conversation. Brittany Allison: [00:20:00] Thank you so much, Jeena for having me. Closing: [00:20:13] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at [email protected]. Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 105: Tiffany Southerland — Owning Your Past for a More Confident Future
10/22/2018
RL 105: Tiffany Southerland — Owning Your Past for a More Confident Future
In this episode, I am excited to have Tiffany Southerland on to talk about owning your past to better understand yourself and your future. Tiffany is a career confidence coach and speaker. She is the founder of , where she helps ambitious professionals leverage their stories and strengths so they can maximize their career success. After practicing law, Tiffany transitioned to higher education and eventually back to a law firm in a recruiting role. She also hosts her own podcast and a local radio show focused on career development and diversity and inclusion. Topics Covered Owning your story by accepting the good and the bad to develop an increased sense of self-awareness, and having a better platform to launch yourself into where you want to be. How she believes confidence is the best tool you can have in your professional toolbox to both make yourself feel more comfortable in stressful situations and help others feel comfortable around you. How her faith and spirituality has shaped her work and her podcast. Making career transitions, and knowing your value and values. Sources Mentioned: Use to contact Tiffany and schedule a time to talk with her. Text "TiffSouth" to 444999 to get her free workbook "The Leverage List" Learn more and connect with Tiffany at: Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Tiffany Southerland: [00:00:03] In my own career journey, I recognized that there was a bit of a disconnect between where I ended up, and how I got there and why. I had to look back before I could figure out how I wanted to move forward. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today In this episode I have Tiffany Southerland. She Is a career confidence coach and speaker. She is a founder of Four Corners Coaching, where she helps ambitious professionals leverage their stories and strength so that they can maximize their career success. After practicing law, Tiffany's transition to higher education and eventually back to a law firm and a recruiting role she also hosts her own podcast. How does she do it in a local radio show focused on career development and diversity and inclusion. [00:01:14] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode. Go back and check it out. A shared a six minute guided meditation practice the like though of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course Mindful Pause and I know you've been hearing me talk about meditation and mindfulness and why it's so important. But really it is the best tool I found to manage stress and anxiety and also increase focus and productivity and so often lawyers ask me Well how much time do I need to dedicate this. And I said you know what just start with six minutes with two minutes if that's all you can fit into your schedule or six minutes of all the hours you dedicate to your clients and others don't you deserve to have at least one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for boys like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily by The to boost your well-being. Head on over to Jeena Cho dot com to learn more. Check it out in the show notes. And with that here's Stephanie Tiffany welcome to the show. Tiffany Southerland: [00:02:13] Thank you so much for having me Jane I'm very happy to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:16] So let's just jump right in and have you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do. Tiffany Southerland: [00:02:22] I like to say that I am a lawyer by training and a change agent at heart and I am a girl from Hempstead Long Island who really loves to help people be their best selves. I am the oldest of four children so that comes with this sort of protective desire to help you know kind of nurture and help people be their best and I love haribo gummy bears which is something that I like to mention to people it is the best brand of gummy bears ever. And I'm just really really excited and grateful to have this conversation with you today. Jeena Cho: [00:02:57] Wonderful it was. I didn't know that you are a long island. They're my parents. They'll live in Huntington and I grew up in Kuwait and said. Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:05] Look at that. Jeena Cho: [00:03:06] Surprised to find out we have this connection. Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:09] Yes. Jeena Cho: [00:03:09] So let's start by talking about owning your story. What does that mean in terms of lawyers specifically. And how do you help your clients find their own story. What does that process. Tiffany Southerland: [00:03:22] So I think owning your story is really about the way this is something that I and I developed this kind of this idea or this concept that it is only your story is not novel to me but in my own career journey I recognized that there was a bit of a disconnect between where I ended up and how I how I got there and and why and what I had to do when I started practice which you know kind of led me to actually leaving practice full time was I had to look back before I could figure out how I wanted to move forward and in order for you to do that. [00:04:00] It starts by you really taking ownership and acceptance of the things that you have been through the things that have contributed to who you are the things that have driven you and pushed you in a direction that maybe you didn't realize you even wanted to go and or that you don't actually want to go in. And then from there being able to then step back and say Okay now that I recognize these things about my past and my present how does that influence the way that I want to show up in my present and my future. [00:04:29] And so when you own your story you are accepting the the good and the bad that has helped shape you shape who you are developing an increased sense of self awareness working to heal working to be honest and authentic and then that really just helps open you up for so many more possibilities that that allow you to show up as a better professional and a better person generally. Jeena Cho: [00:04:52] Hmm thinking about working with boys and I can also say lawyers being like well why does that matter. You know I do transactional law that is out of me only my story. Help me be a better transactional lawyer. Tiffany Southerland: [00:05:05] So that's a great question. And I think what it helps you. What what I do. I do not believe that we operate and live in compartments although we are. We live in a society and in a world that tells us that there is our work self and that there is our home self. And while we are not the same way with our you know colleagues may be as the way we are with our best friends or with our you know our family and things like that. There is this disconnect between how we show up at work and who we are as people and that creates a tension and when you have to put on your work face and put on your work self and not be able to bring in parts of who you are you are you're not being your best self. [00:05:47] You may be a great transactional attorney but are you the best person to work with. Are you the best colleague. Are you even. Are are you joyful in the work that you do. And I think that there's this assumption that as attorneys who do you know very high level sophisticated work that you can't then also be you can't necessarily balance and be more of who you are and not be conservative and sort of buttoned up because this profession and this work is very serious and very high stakes. So I think it matters in the sense that you can bring more of who you are at work and it makes you a better colleague. It makes you better for your clients and it makes you happier and it makes you less exhausted because you're not putting on a front if you will for the sake of just being this work self. Jeena Cho: [00:06:35] Right. It kind of makes me think about that concept of cover saying where you feel like you can't bring all of yourself into your work environment or whatever it might be and now that's something I've been thinking more about recently because I am an immigrant. I came over from Korea when I was 10 years old and then I realized you know I spent so much of my teenage years and certainly my adult years of trying to race the fact that I am an immigrant. [00:07:04] I changed my name. I lost my accent and I worked really hard at it to try to appear mainstream more and are now just more normal or why. Then just more recently I had to be like Oh OK. But what were the pieces that I left behind. And how is that impacting me now and how is that impacting the way I show up for other people. And as I start to sort of reclaim all of those parts that I've you know hidden or left behind that it actually gave me just more of a sense of comfort and also just like feeling just more comfortable in my own skin and then sort of an interesting realization but yeah I'd totally just hear and feel what it is that you're talking about. Tiffany Southerland: [00:07:55] Absolutely. And I think what you mentioned is feeling more comfort comfortable in your own skin and when you're more comfortable in your own skin and can show up to work that way you are a more confident attorney. You are a more confident person. And what we know in this profession confidence is what is what is the thing that that draws people to you. It draws your it draws your colleagues to you to give you more an additional work. [00:08:23] It draws clients to you and it it just makes everyone else feel more comfortable because there's an assumption that comes with confidence competence the assumption of competence comes with confidence in this profession. And so when you are able to show up more full and that's that's what I help my clients do is if I can help you become more confident at your core and be clear about who you are as a person. We can figure out the career stuff that stuff will come. It's the it's though it's the personal stuff that we try to keep separate from our career. That often inhibits us in our in our development in our career. Jeena Cho: [00:08:57] And you know before we started this interview right sharing with me about how you sort of started opening your your own faith and how you actually started talking about that on your podcast so if you can just share with the audience you know how your own faith your own spirituality or religion has sort of shaped who you are and how you approach your work. Tiffany Southerland: [00:09:20] Absolutely. So when I started my podcast three years ago I started it as a really focused a lot on personal development and the frame of reference that I came from was I was this older millennial who felt like I'd gotten dropped into this professional world that school barely prepared before right. And so all of the different pressures and things that come with being an adult knowing how to balance your your finances and your physical health and your profession and your relationships all at the same time. I didn't feel like I had a good handle on that. And so started my podcast really with that kind of frame of reference in mind. [00:09:56] And over time I felt I felt myself growing in my faith. I am a Christian and so I felt that that was becoming a bigger part of my identity. But I kept I was holding it back in my conversations. And once I realized that it was it became difficult for me to talk fully and authentically in that particular vulnerable space without mentioning my faith. I I felt like I was being inauthentic and I felt like I had to to keep myself from you know sharing parts some things that were really important and things that I thought could be helpful to other people. And once I pulled that wall down once I let that fear go then I was able to draw and in an entirely new group of listeners to me. [00:10:40] And I think the lesson for everyone else there is that when you show up more fully as you are in a in an authentic and in a full in a whole way you will draw the people to you that are meant to be drawn to you you will help people in ways that you don't even realize just by simply being more of who you are and so that was that was really how that came through for me because it just became such a natural part of my conversation outside of the podcast. I couldn't I could not talk about it and even at work I don't you know I don't it's I'm obviously very measured about the way that I speak about my faith in the professional environment. But when I'm thinking about the principles that that my face it the reasons why I care about people and things like that those things are connected and so I can't encourage without that perspective in my mind at least. And so that's kind of the frame of reference that kind of keeps me grounded. Jeena Cho: [00:11:35] Was some other reason why you kept the wall up this year. Like go I'm going to turn people off. Tiffany Southerland: [00:11:41] That's a great question. I think I was worry that people would that I would come across as preachy if you will and this and there's something about being a Christian that. And it just is. It's observation and in society that sometimes it comes across as very harsh. It comes across as dogmatic. It comes across as alienating to people and that was my fear was that the exact opposite of what I wanted to do. And so what I recognized though is that my tendency is not to be that way anyway. And so by talking about my faith more I wouldn't automatically become somebody who I wasn't I would become more of who I actually was and I wouldn't Nessus I wouldn't turn people off by virtue of me talking about it in and of itself. It would be maybe that somebody might not be interested in hearing about it and so they would choose to. Jeena Cho: [00:12:25] Now yeah. And I love that that you can define it what that means for you. You know being able to incorporate your faith into the work that you do when you cannot really awesome model for other people what that looks like. I think you're right people do have you know ideas about what it means to be Christian and how especially if they're not Christian how other Christian people behave. And you can also help to maybe take down that stereotype and go Oh I am you know I thought that he meant that as she is showing me that it might actually mean something very different. So yeah I really love that. Tiffany Southerland: [00:13:05] Thank you. Exactly and I think it really is just a matter the way that I try to live my life through the way I engage in social media the way I show up at work is really around the idea that if you are more of who you are and if you can be whole in who you are than other things that you don't even expect will fall into place in ways that you just can't anticipate because we're too busy boxing ourselves into these compartments that we assume we need to be. And that's just not it's just not the case. Jeena Cho: [00:13:35] I'm well let's shift gears a little bit and talk about career transitions. Seems like I've been getting a lot of listener questions about changing careers or not even changing careers. More specifically I get a lot of questions around me. I think you kind of go through life and you check all the boxes right. You go to a school you pass the bar or you get a job you make partner or you buy the house with the white picket fence Yep two kids you have to the car in the garage but then all of a sudden you hit this wall and there's this feeling of like oh I have everything but I'm still just content I have everything but I am still so incredibly unhappy. [00:14:12] I was just talking to a lawyer recently and she said she literally sits in her garage everyday and cries before she goes into the house and she's like but I just don't like I don't even feel like I have a right to feel that way and it just feels so overwhelming to think that you know think that while I put so much work and so much effort to get to where I am and to think that I was all for nothing or all for not. So I know that's a huge bag of topics that I sort of threw out there but you know when someone comes to you when they're just in that state of like I just don't know. You know I got to the end of the rainbow and there's no pot of gold and all I see is just more misery and dread where someone who's in that situation. Tiffany Southerland: [00:15:00] Yeah that's a great question and I definitely have had that conversation many many times with some with them some of the clients that I work with. What it comes down to I start with how let's talk about how you got here because and this is a reflection my of my own career journey. I got to the desire to become an attorney by virtue of me seeing the power that was associated with the with being an attorney. Me also seeing that there is a security of of of of a financial future that came with being an attorney. [00:15:33] And so and I never wavered from that and I never explored anything else. And so when you're talking about kind of why people are unhappy where they are. We have to figure out what got them here first because when you deconstruct why they are where they are today you start to hear them talk about the things that they actually cared about or that they wanted you start to hear about the things that they feel gives them purpose and where that disconnect is why doesn't this job that you're in right now make it light you up. Why don't you feel that it's fulfilling or that you're living intentionally. [00:16:08] And they start to when you're just ask them questions about their journey they tell you answers to what those next they give you at least insights into what those next step might need to be. And it may not mean leaving the profession. It may not mean leaving your law firm it may be asking for some setting harder boundaries. It may be asking for permission to you know become a leader in a different type of way. It may mean making shifts in the way you show up at work every day and it may mean resolving some of the issues that keep you feeling guilty about being successful. [00:16:42] Because again that's it's not that the career the career is is really just it is kind of the surface part of it. We are people before we show up to work every day. We were people before you know where people as attorneys were not just attorneys. Right. And that's and saying just attorneys is not to diminish the profession but it is to say we are people who are attorneys. And so how do you service the whole person who's shows up as an attorney are a jobs are not our identities but we live in a society that makes our job our identity. I'm sure you have encountered you go to a professional networking events or what do you do. Where do you work. It's the way that we label and we attach value to people and if we can't attach value to ourselves outside of our work when our work isn't fulfilling us we will therefore feel like we have less value. Jeena Cho: [00:17:31] Hmm yeah that's some yeah that's Hanako's brings us back full circle to what we started talking about as we have to begin by owning our stories of where our journey has taken us so far. Step after you...
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RL 104: Samara Anderson — How the Mindful Lawyer Recognizes and Utilizes Stress
10/15/2018
RL 104: Samara Anderson — How the Mindful Lawyer Recognizes and Utilizes Stress
In this episode, I am excited to have Samara Anderson on to talk about the effects of stress in the practice of law and the difference proper mitigation of stress can have for the mindful lawyer. Samara is a yoga teacher, Agency of Human Services legal and policy advisor, and an entrepreneur creating a non-profit community farm in Vermont to use farm animals, nature, and mindfulness to heal people. Her legal work has evolved from litigation to public service as an in-house legal and policy advisor with the State of Vermont. Samara has combined her mindfulness practices with the practice of law in her Mindful Practices workshops to reduce stress and increase productivity and happiness. Topics Covered What brought her to incorporate mindfulness into her law practice, and how to use a mindfulness practice to recognize when you are being reactive and triggered. The effects of stress on the practice of law (the power of the mind to hurt and heal). The power of mindfulness in improving your role as an attorney, and using stress and adrenaline to your advantage. How to be more efficient, productive, happier, and have more integrity as an attorney. Learn more about Samara at: Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:23] Hello my friends, thanks for joining me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am really happy to have Samara Anderson. She is a yoga teacher, Agency of Human Services legal and policy adviser, and an entrepreneur at creating a nonprofit community farm in Vermont to use farm animals nature and mindfulness to heal people. Her legal work has a ball from litigation to public service as an in-house legal and policy adviser with the state of Vermont. Samara has combined her mindfulness practice with the practice of law and her mindfulness practices workshop to reduce stress and increase productivity and happiness and who doesn't want that. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new cars mindful pause so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness but they don't have the time and I was hell lawyer start with just six minutes or point one hour of all the hours you dedicate your client's work and others don't deserve to have at least point one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for lawyers like it to fit into your schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to booze show while being head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. Or check it out in the shownotes. And with that, here’s Samara. Samara, welcome to the show. Samara Anderson: [00:01:48] Awesome thank you. I'm really excited to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:01:51] So let's just start by having you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you know. Samara Anderson: [00:01:57] Well I like to refer to myself as a Yagur so I combining Beany yoga teacher with being a lawyer and that started about five years ago. I started my professional legal career as a complex commercial litigator in Manhattan working on securities fraud antitrust violations products liability. Very very stressful work high stakes very wealthy clients and it was very hostile and you know I kind of transitioned out of that environment into being a yoga teacher thinking I would never practice law again. And then I realized I could actually combine the two. I could bring the mindfulness and the healing that I was feeling both physically and mentally from from yoga and meditation into the practice of law. And so I returned to the practice of law as an assistant attorney general here in Vermont which is where I live now doing some really complex challenging family law cases representing people that were being abused neglected or violated as either adults or children with developmental disabilities. So it was a very stressful kind of situation. But I was able to bring the mindfulness into it and that's made all the difference and now I've kind of transitioned into managing some of their complex projects and representing the agency of Human Services. I'm still you know integrating the two. I teach a lot of mindful practices courses to all types of lawyers Vermont Legal Aid. I teach to other government attorneys law firms. And I'm really passionate about combining these two things and helping other lawyers the less stressed and happier. Jeena Cho: [00:03:51] Well it is combining the two books like they did day basis. Know client by client basis how does that look different than what you were doing previously. Samara Anderson: [00:04:04] I think previously I was just I felt like I was in a rat race. I was just I felt like I was just rushing from one thing to the next. Never really even enjoying whatever it was I was doing even if it was something that could be enjoyable I was just in in those moments. I was thinking of other things are planning the next thing or thinking about something that happened before. And so when I look back at my first seven eight years as a lawyer I was essentially not present at all. I think I was physically present. And my mind was engaged but I wasn't actually there. I think I was always somewhere else. And I think you looking back at you know it just didn't allow me to maximize everything I was doing. But now after you know I have a very solid practice. I incorporate our Iveta into my day as well. So I have in our Ubaid it's called a Jeena Cho area it's a routine that's kind of there to support your body to maximize what you eat when you sleep when you exercise. It's kind of this holistic way of approaching you know your health and that. So those things yoga meditation are kind of all combined to now allow me to be present in all of the moments so I'm really there as much as I can be of course I'm human I'm not. You know I'm not completely enlightened yet but I think the moments of mindfulness and being present are much more powerful and I'm getting a lot more of it out of everything I do. So yeah I think that's the biggest difference just in a kind of a general context. Jeena Cho: [00:05:53] Yeah. And can you talk more specifically about you know when you talk about the power of mindfulness and harnessing it to improve your role as an attorney what that looks like. Can you give a specific example of how you may have handled this situation differently before than you do now. Samara Anderson: [00:06:10] I think that the biggest thing is efficiency and that's really coming from self awareness so you know when you become mindful you become a little bit more self aware. You know you start to realize when you're being triggered you start you starting to realize when you're being reactive. And I think you know the biggest thing is starting to look at both efficiency and sustainability so you know let's say looking at my daily tasks. So before I would be sitting at my desk and e-mails would come in and phone calls would come in and I was just a victim to everyone else contacting me. So if I get a phone call I would answer it if I got an e-mail I would read it if I got to it. This is before the time of cell phones they were just starting to pick up and then now that you know when those cell phones came in I had a BlackBerry and so it was you know e-mail notifications and all these notifications and I was just you know kind of rushing from one thing to the next and getting distracted and not being able to focus on anything that was just you know kind of my mind was jumping from one thing to the next. And now I do what's called batching. So I'll bad I'll let all the e-mails you know just accumulate and I'll have a notification that says I check my e-mails three times a day. So I check them one hour in the morning one hour in the afternoon one hour in the evening. And then you know I take that one hour and it's you know I complete the analysis of all the e-mails looking at the e-mails responding to the e-mails and giving them my full attention. It's the same with phone calls so that the phone calls go to voicemail and then you know Habba time that I've said that I've determined I'm going to you know listen to those phone messages and then I'll listen to them and prioritize the responses and let people know I'll get back to them. So I think it's it's just a different way of of actually practicing. And I think that plays out not just being a lawyer but I think you know anyone in the professional context that that kind of distracted practice is not very efficient or sustainable. Jeena Cho: [00:08:19] So it is one of the things that I often will talk to lawyers about is time management and how to structure their time more efficiently and often I'll get something like well but my clients expected to be available 24/7 and if I don't respond right away they get upset. I'm curious when you started to make these changes. Did you get any pushback. And if so how did you deal with that. Samara Anderson: [00:08:40] Yeah I get that a lot from lawyers especially those that are in the criminal context of the civil litigation context where you've got judges you've got cook you know opposing counsel you've got clients and in one of the things I started to kind of look at I have a government client and I think the key is to set their expectation with the client or the expectation with opposing counsel to state that you know I want to give you all of my attention. And if I respond to your e-mails right away it means I'm not giving you all your all the tension that you know you really deserve. And so I'd rather wait give myself space to like schedule the time to do it. I know there is an emergency. You know I will be available. But typically clients are fine with that. I mean once you set the expectation I mean if the expectation is you're always available then you're you know if that's what they expect then that's what you have to provide. And I've had many lawyers even in the Ledet litigation context as I don't actively practice litigation anymore that are able to actually set those expectations with their clients. So I think that's the key. You know just communicating that upfront. And and you know and then allowing the media negotiation to occur with a client to say well you know if they do have something that's urgent then I'll let that come through. You can set up all these different you know an outlook and different e-mails you can set up certain e-mails can come through with the notification that they're important. So you can actually prioritize things that way. Jeena Cho: [00:10:07] So just not have outlook open during the day when you're not supposed to be checking your e-mail or you sort of internally manage that. Samara Anderson: [00:10:17] I just turn the notifications off. So I mean it's there but I'm not actively looking at it. And I think you know the key is to kind of you know take all your time so if you're you know in the office for eight hours to you know kind of schedule everything. So look down at your calendar and schedule that schedule. You know the break that you're going to take I have a little notification that pops up. Be mindful and it pops up at 1:00 and so it's always like I'm always rushing. That is like. Be mindful. And it's just I can just be mindful for one breath if I don't have the time to take the full five minutes. But usually I can take five minutes and then sometimes it's ten. But you know to really maximize it so if you give if you batched everything you've put everything you know in your calendar then you're just then there's less stress too because you know I'm going to get to this. There's my mind isn't racing to be like how did I do this. Did I do that you've already prioritized everything you already know what you have to do and then you just do it when you schedule it. Jeena Cho: [00:11:13] Yeah. And I think also scheduling things kind of you know it's respecting your own energy right because we don't think you know it's lawyers. We like to think that where we can just work and work and work and work but it's not true. So recognizing that there are only so many hours in the day and you know you're going to prioritize those things that are important and make sure that you are able to do those things when you're sort of at your know optimal energy level and that kind of trying and doing you know for me as you say earlier in the morning tends to be sort of my better hours in terms of getting work done and not putting the most important things to be done at 4:00 o'clock. Oh my energy levels is not going to be as high. Samara Anderson: [00:11:58] Exactly. Or 3 o'clock when all over serotonin and dopamine levels drop later. Jeena Cho: [00:12:06] And you know I think that very nicely kind of leads us into the next topic which has the effect of stress on the practice. Applying this ability of the mind to both hurt and heal so say more about that. Samara Anderson: [00:12:23] I think this is this is something that it kind of developed as I started to teach mindfulness because as a lawyer you know we always kind of want to look at it what's the problem like what is the problem what are we what are we dealing with. And then what is a solution. So as always you know I always start with that kind of a two step analysis. What's the problem. What are my you know possible solutions. And so as I started to break down what had really started to fall apart for me both physically and emotionally it was the effects of stress. And it was the you know the physical and the mental effects of stress. So the example I always use when I write teach my mind for practice practices workshops is I ask all the participants you know what causes stress in your life. And they all you know they have different things and they go around the room and then I say Alright imagine that all the things that you just identified as causing stress your so you're mentally saying these things are causing me stress. Physically your body is reacting as though a supportive tigers chasing you because your mind is telling your body. I'm under stress. There is something that is you know coming after me and it could just be a deadline. It could just be you know a phone call an awkward conversation an argument. And so you know I say well if a saber toothed tigers chasing you what are your options like. What do you need to do. And you know everyone's like run. And I said while you could run or you could you know you could you could fight. You know it may not be the best option but maybe you could. Or you could freeze. And all three of those states cause the same exact amount of hormones in the body. So you've got first nor epinephrine an adrenalin are created. Those are the like. I've got to get out of here. I've got I got get moving. And then and then after that cortisol starts to come online and that stays in the body much longer. But they all are meant to get you to run. You're supposed to be running. So all the blood flow is now going out into your extremities. You know your heart rate increases your respiration it increases your hands could get sweaty. You know and so you're having a stress response. And you know when I tell people that I have them in vision that they're getting chased by sabertooth tiger they start to think wow I actually do kind of feel that way. Like when you and I have a deadline or when I'm under stress it's like my body is reacting that way I could just be sitting in a room thinking about something and my body is going to have that response. And so you know I really talk about how powerful the mind body connection is and it really hits home like you know I'll even do the example of just everyone close their eyes and take your awareness to your left index finger and then I'll have them you know just take their awareness their take their energy there and then open their eyes and say well what did it feel like. Did you feel. What did you feel in your left index finger in there like tingly and it felt like buzzing it felt warm. That is your mind. You're just taking your mind and you're putting it on something. And you know that mind body connection is so powerful and so I say well you know if you've got these stress hormones how how do you decrease them you know how do you kind of get out of the sympathetic nervous system and get into what's called the parasympathetic nervous system and then in that system you've got the other three opposing hormones serotonin dopamine and oxytocin and those actually decrease those stress hormones. So you know mindful practices and there's a lot of documented evidence. Lawyers always want to see the evidence so I always have my studies about you know how deep breathing and mindful movement whatever kind of movement it is. Even if you're running if you're doing it mindfully you'll still have the same facts yoga a tight tchi all of these different motions activate the parasympathetic system and they activate those hormones serotonin dopamine and oxytocin so you actually you've got these I almost kind of see it as like stress hormones versus relaxation hormones and like you know which can you start to increase the relaxation and decrease the stress. And what can you do during the day what can you do in the moment. What can you do to to start to to alter that balance so that you know when someone cut you off in traffic you're not reacting you're just thinking what a person must be having a bad day you know you're your reactive state is much different because you're in he start to cultivate this place of of of more relaxation. So that's kind of how I Jeena I generalize that I have a lot of lawyers say we can handle the talking about the prefrontal cortex I'm like well you know that's probably more advanced mindfulness. Let's just stick with the basics right. And a lot of people are blown away just by the basics right. Because it does have a complex. Jeena Cho: [00:17:17] you explain the actual practice. Can you give one example of a practice of filibusterers and that I like I yeah reading she says is totally making sense. But what do I do in that moment. So you're sitting in the office. The phone rings and says to someone that you like low then you know your heart's racing our stomachs tightening up and you just yell like you can sort of feel that adrenaline kicking in. So what's a practice that you can recommend a lawyer try to do in that moment. Samara Anderson: [00:17:49] Well I think the most critical pieces that you actually are aware that you're having a stress response you know and that in itself is extremely powerful. The second you are realizing wow I am I am I'm I'm really upset right now. I can feel my heart beating faster I can feel my breath rate increasing like you don't want to even talk about stress. I have a lot of lawyers say how many people feel stressed just talking about stress syndrome it raised their hands because even like as you describe that I started feeling it. So you know you know and...
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RL 103: Gina Alexandris — Legal Education and How to Manage Transition Out of Law
10/08/2018
RL 103: Gina Alexandris — Legal Education and How to Manage Transition Out of Law
In this episode, I am excited to have Gina Alexandris on to talk about life in and beyond law practice and managing transitions. For over 20 years, Gina has been inspiring and supporting individuals and organizations to strategically define their hopes and achieve their goals. She is an adult educator, coach, public speaker, life-long learner, law school administrator, and former practicing lawyer. Gina is passionate about personal and professional development, diversity and inclusion, and developing strong relationships and networks. She is a proud Greek-Canadian soccer mom living with her family in Toronto. Topics Covered What the legal education life looks like (even beyond the law practice), how she discovered that litigation wasn't right for her, and what about it wasn't suited to whom she is. Dealing with an identity crisis in law, managing transitions at any point in your career, and what that journey looked like for her. What to do with that nagging feeling we can feel when we are pulled in different directions. Emotional intelligence for lawyers, and how we sometimes need to back away from our logic-thinking brain to listen to our inner voice. Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Gina Alexandris: [00:00:06] I think being open and and seeing where things leads you right. So you go down one or it might not be the exact door but another one might have opened during that conversation that you want to explore. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] Hello my friends thanks for being with me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast, I am so glad to have you here. In this episode I am so happy to have Gina Alexandris. She has been inspiring and supporting individuals and organizations to strategically define their hopes and achieve their goals. She is an adult educator coach public speaker a lifelong learner law school administrator and former practicing lawyer Jeena as passionate about personal and professional development diversity and inclusion in developing strong relationships and networks. She is a proud Greek Canadian soccer mom living with her family in Toronto. And in this episode we're going to Chad about law practice and beyond law practice and that she had a little bit about managing transitions I know a lot of Jeena. There have been sending e-mails about managing and changing careers and different you know changes that we go through and especially as we kind of shift from summer to fall I think it's a lovely time to kind of take a pause and reflect on your life and consider all of these big or small transitions. So I'm thrilled to have Jeena before we get into the interview if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my course mindful pause so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice my Pilas but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers start with just six minutes or point one hour of all the hours she'd dedicate to your client's work and others don't you deserve to have at least point one hour to yourself mindful pauses designed for lawyers like you to fit into your head schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to Jeena Cho dot com to learn more or check it out and the shell notes. And with that here's Gina. Gina, welcome to the show. Gina Alexandris: [00:02:38] Thank you Jeena. It is a delight to be here. I love the the mindful pause and the concept of taking just to point one out of your day for yourself. Well-deserved so thank you very much for having me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:48] Thank you. So let's start by having you give us this 30 second introduction of who you are and what you deal. Gina Alexandris: [00:02:54] Absolutely absolutely. And so what I wanted to say to that is that I started off in the practice of law and I did civil litigation and family law for about four years and then realized during that time that something about that just wasn't what I was hoping it would be. And I was looking for other options. And before law school I'd always thought I would go into teaching. What I found as a possibility was to set up are my alma maters Osgoode Hall Law School here in Canada. Career Development Office and so I transition from the practice of law to moving into the law school setting didn't know how long I would be there for. But over the last several years I have been at Osgoode as the starting person for career services. I worked with students Asma as the assistant dean of student services. I've transitioned to one of the other law schools in Toronto the youth of where we had an internationally trained Boyer's program that I began and after some time transition to the Ryerson University where I'm at now where we had a new program that again that I helped to develop Karbalaa practice program. And so I've been in legal education for a lot longer than I was in practice for a buddy here I worked in government again doing the education for lawyers so I've I've certainly been on the side of a practice in various ways for a long time now. Jeena Cho: [00:04:20] So you know it's something that you said is something that I often hear as you know you start your law practice and you have a certain idea of what it's going to be like. And I think it's really hard to know especially doing something like litigation what it's actually like to do litigation day in and day out without actually having done it. And law school is often up or preparatory Skoff actually every year the ins and outs of what that's actually like. So when you said you know just something about litigation wasn't right for me. Can you talk a little bit more about that. How did you know that it wasn't right for you and what about who was just not suited to who you are. Gina Alexandris: [00:05:01] Great question. And I get that over the years by many students and even junior lawyers new lawyers who are finding themselves sort that kind of question. And it's it's also one of the reasons why I think I love the fact that we're starting this new law school here in Rodgerson because trying to get that experience in early on is important. But you don't know until you do it. And I think that's that's really critical too to know. I went to law school and I hear this all the time I read it in personal statements for applicants to law schools. I went into law school. So I wanted to help people. I wanted to help people solve their problem the solutions. And I've been involved in my parents. I'm a child of immigrants and they've been involved in a litigation matter and I didn't like how they experience that process. And that was the resolve for me that I was going to go to law school and do something about that so that others like my parents would never have to deal with that again. So those are the transition from thinking I'd go into teaching to going into law and in practice I really loved meeting with the kid with the. So [00:06:03] I really loved listening to them and hearing what their problems were and trying to find the legal solutions to it. I'm a natural talker and so I enjoyed the preparation for court and you know appearing in court and actually making arguments in favor of my client. The part that I didn't like and it sort of yes it's part of civil litigation and family for sure is that conflict. And while there are a host of lawyers who are practicing who are trying to build their practices and family law and in civil litigation in a less confrontational way nevertheless our current system still still requires that. And for me it just wasn't part of how I wanted to be as a as a person. And I found myself at odds with that. So you know what I thought OK what if I transition to something more solicitor based. I really like the concept of litigation. And for me I don't think I'd want to do more solicitor based work whether it's contract drafting or Wills and the statesetc. and I just found that when I was able to find something within legal Ed it was really I had those aha moments right this is where I really belong. I was able to marry what I really had a passion for with the substance and the materials that I had spent you know learning in law school. Jeena Cho: [00:07:28] You know it is so once you sort of realize hey you know I sort of ended up on a path that isn't suited for me. I know for myself and also just having worked with lawyers over the years that that often comes with a tremendous sense of guilt or even some sort of feeling of failure or you know this feeling like oh I don't know what to do now. You know like the wind that I had so much time preparing or is just not right for me. [00:07:59] So what do I do. They go through cause I think as lawyers we identify so much of who we are what we do. So we as kind of go through some sort of an identity crisis. She goes through with that. And if he did how did you manage it. Gina Alexandris: [00:08:13] Oh boy did I ever. And you know it's interesting because you seek out so and as I said before a child of immigrants I didn't have a lot of role models if any in the legal profession to start with right so that itself is something that I always try and give back to people as much as possible. But nevertheless for me when I decide to go to law school I can tell you the family was proud. Right. They were having a daughter not only go to university but off to law school and then become a lawyer and people whether you know what a lawyer does or not you have this idea that you know what a lawyer does. [00:08:47] Right. And so for me that identity was very strong and very much a part of who I was. And so I spent about four years in practice and of course early on I would hear my supervisors or my senior lawyers saying it's all part of a learning curve. You just have to get over those first four or five years. And I thought OK. So if something miraculously changed after four or five years I wasn't feeling like there was a change. And so in my fourth year I did seek the support of a career counselor a career coach. And I remember her saying at one point when we were chatting and she said something about oh well do you have fun in your work. And I paused. I gave her a strange look and she said to me what's wrong I said Do you remember what I said that I do actually I'm a lawyer and she said yes. And if you can't have fun being a lawyer then maybe we need to look at something else. And so that sort of moment was was a turning point for me. I realized I wanted to find something that I really truly enjoyed doing and if not 70s you know not all the time and then the most part of my working days. And for me I have to tell you when I made the decision and found an opportunity to leave the practice and go into the legal education area the biggest my biggest worry and a huge huge huge weight on my shoulders was how do I tell my father. Here is a man who had you know third grade education back in Greece came to Canada. Building a life for his family so proud of his daughter that you know was a lawyer. How am I going to tell him for me. That conversation was one that I was so nervous about having and Jeena. I remember having him over to the house for dinner and after dinner anxiously cussing said Daddy not that I want to tell you about. I'm going to change jobs new looked and said OK and he said and I said I'm not going to be a lawyer anymore and that those words just saying those words were excruciating to me and he looked at me and he paused and he said are you going to be happy. [00:10:55] And I kind of went I think so it's a good. I hope you are in and tell me about where you're going to work. And I thought well what I worry about all this time around ain't no. But yet it was that identity and that sense of oh I have to keep doing this because everybody thinks I should and I'm carrying it for whoever else you know I'm carrying for was a huge weight. And over the years I realize nobody really is going to. That doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. Jeena Cho: [00:11:22] Right. And even if even if for some reason Ito they were to have some sort of negative reaction. It's also sort of like well that's their reaction and you can't be responsible for other people's reactions. Absolutely. Gina Alexandris: [00:11:36] No absolutely. And reminding myself of that was critical as well. Jeena Cho: [00:11:40] Yeah yeah well yeah I mean it's so funny listening to your story is so much like mine. And when I told my parents are not going well I mean I still practice a little bit but you know and I basically said I have a law is no longer going to be my primary focus and I'm going to teach mindfulness meditation to other lawyers. They just look at me like it's not a race because it's also sort of like a made up job in a way. Gina Alexandris: [00:12:08] Well think about it back then this was over 20 years ago the career development office where I started the creative element opposite our law school and so our colleagues and friends in theU.S. men are you know appreciate that but we didn't have career officers career services offices in Canada back in back about 20 years ago and so I was set to start that. And so figuring out how to describe what I do to people you know my colleagues my friends what's a career development officer career services person what do they do every day. You know over the years I've just found ways to explain what I do and if I have to say I'm a lawyer that's not practicing I do that too right. Jeena Cho: [00:12:47] Yeah. Yeah. And like not having that hail of being a lawyer is surprisingly high. It's one of sort of like the big hurdles that I often have to work with my coaching clients. It's like well like I just like having that title it's need it's clear people understand what that means. It's not like you know if say like oh I help people do at her know I guess career transition or career coach isn't such an unusual job title anymore. [00:13:15] But yet you know. So I think it's it's kind of fine to not have sort of a traditional job title anymore I can put an interesting spin on it. So it's going to go back to your story. How did you go from that sort of recognizing that OK I'm not going to be a lawyer anymore. Finding your way into what you're doing now. What was that journey like. Gina Alexandris: [00:13:38] Oh wow. I find it in retrospect. There are so many similarities. And you know when you look back you can see oh yeah that's not that much of a surprise in fact. So as I said earlier I had always had an interest in teaching. I didn't know what that meant if it was going to be in primary school. High school university but but in education some way shape or form. So when the first opportunity to start the career office came I thought great because I'll be able to help people. And remember that's why I kind of wanted to go to law school. I liked what my career coach had done and I think being able to help guide people in that context was was important and it was in an educational environment again. And my alma mater where I felt really comfortable and and happy to be back. So that was for a couple of years and then at that point the role of Assistant Dean of Student Services came up. We'd had a bit of transition at the school there had been three different people in four years in that role and I thought you know the next person who gets that role might be there for a long time. So I even though I was only in the career office for a couple of years I thought let me put my hat in the ring. Who knows. I'm taking a chance at this point and I did and I got the role. And I was thrilled. And in fact I was the one who was in the role for the next nine years. It was really incredible. It stretched me because I had never really before dealt with administrative work from from a schools perspective. So dealing with the admissions dealing with programs and records dealing with the career office and our financial aid it was it was incredible. And when people would say OK but you're dealing with the same issues year in year out my comment would be twofold. First of all schools make changes regularly. And secondly every year you've got a new group of students with their new with their own interests passions goals challenges. And so it was it was not boring at all being in that kind of environment for those years. But at some point I thought what happens next. Where do I. What do I do next. I was sort of itching for some kind of change in talking about transitions right. There was an opportunity at our at another school in Toronto to start a program for internationally trained lawyers to help them develop skills and build networks. When they're new to the province into the country and wanted to transition to be lawyers in the country and for me that was important for a number of reasons primarily. Again the immigrant experience from my parents perspective is one that I carry with me Jeena and I don't know if you know you or other members of the audience can appreciate it but knowing what my parents have gone through are not necessarily in a context of a professional degree accreditation but just that immigrant experience that as different as it is for people it's also very similar. And I wanted to be able to build something to help support at least a member of some members of that community. Those who were who had legal backgrounds. But what I found was I also liked the entrepreneurial spirit and what I mean by that is you know I kind of like starting things from scratch. I started the career office I started that and I realized by the time I came here to Ryerson that I really do like and I think I'm pretty decent at starting you know looking at the needs looking at the program development requirements and then putting together a team putting together the resources putting together the program and being able to then deliver for a group of people. There's a third role that I had that I have right now is a new program here at Ryerson that well I guess we're five years in I'll still say do that again we started with two people you know four people sharing two offices very little in terms of you know phone space and whatnot and have a great project that's and beneficial to over a thousand you know new or almost new lawyers in the province. And so and we're working on sort of a new law school here at the at the university so that new the ability to create something always within the context for me at least for now in law has been really really invigorating. Jeena Cho: [00:18:12] And so I want to switch gears just a little bit. Kind of staying with that whole career transition and maybe you can offer some tips or suggestions or advice for the listeners out there that are perhaps also struggling with that feeling of like this past this area that I've been to hanging by this thing that I've been doing for such a long time. I went to law school for and now I have student loan data. And on and on and on is no longer right for me and I think...
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RL 102: Janine Sickmeyer — Mindfulness from the Female CEO of a Legal Tech Startup
09/17/2018
RL 102: Janine Sickmeyer — Mindfulness from the Female CEO of a Legal Tech Startup
In this episode, I am excited to have Janine Sickmeyer on to talk about her journey in starting her legal tech business and the importance of mindfulness and wellness for her and her team. Janine is the CEO and Founder of NextChapter, a web application for attorneys to prepare, manage and file their bankruptcy cases online. Janine is particularly fascinated in the intersection between law and technology, and is passionate about sharing her story with female entrepreneurs and business leaders to help them overcome challenges when starting a new venture. In addition to being a legal tech CEO, Janine is also a wife and mother to two, with twins on the way! Topics Covered Both boundaries she sees for female business founders, and how she avoids burnout for herself and her employees in a legal tech startup. How mindfulness plays a role in developing relationships with employees and clients. The importance of philanthropy in your business, and how it aids in personal growth for herself and her employees. Learn more about Janine at: Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Janine Sickmeyer: [00:00:01] When you can take time to think more clearly about it about the situation and just being aware of what the actual problem is and how to resolve that. It's just you know it's going to help the employees and clients. Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends thanks for being with us today. In this episode I'm so happy to have Janine. She is the CEO and founder of Next Chapter a web application for attorneys to prepare manage and filed their bankruptcy cases online. She is particularly fascinated with the intersection between law and technology and is passionate about sharing her story with female entrepreneurs and business leaders to help them overcome challenges when starting a new venture. In addition to being a legal tech CEO she is also white a mother of two with twins on the way. Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and check it out. I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course Mindful Pause. So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they don't have the time. I always tell the lawyers just that it was 6 minutes to a point one hour of all the hours he dedicate to your client work and others don't deserve to have a point one hour to yourself mindful pauses is designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your wellbeing. Head on over to Jeena Cho. Com to learn more. Check it out and the show notes. And with that huge Janine Janine welcome to the show. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:02:08] Hi Jeena thanks so much for having me and thanks for all you do for legal professionals. Jeena Cho: [00:02:15] Thank you so much. So to get us started. Love to have you give us a 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:02:22] Of course. [00:02:23] So as you said I am CEO and founder of Next Chapter and next chapter is a web application for attorneys to prepare and manage their bankruptcy cases online. Prior to this I was a paralegal in the bankruptcy field. It was on the consumer side. I did that for several years and I just I saw a need in the market for something like Next job there a web based application. There are other applications that are a desktop in that space and I created next chapter just out of a need to fill the market. So I've been doing that for almost five years now and we launched about two years ago and it took about two and a half years to build but now that we are. You know kind of established Jeena out there we were just trying new things and to get new clients and adding new products. And it's been been a really fun venture. Jeena Cho: [00:03:23] Yeah I peak you and I connect that because the listeners probably know my husband and I have a bankruptcy. So I think we may have met like net worth. Can get help. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:03:34] Actually yeah actually I remember this because I was in San Francisco for Dreamforce which is a sales force compromise. This was back in 2013. So this was right there as getting started and we met up at Peets Coffee. I sent you an email to see if you would talk with me just about you know. Being a bankruptcy attorney. And I knew that you and your husband were you know innovative and looking into I could just tell from your website. Frankly I believe at the time so when you love from Web sites or you know a little a little dated. And I was like well maybe I could meet up with her and see what she would think about this idea. So I remember meeting with you for coffee and sharing you just sketches and talking about it before it was even a product. Jeena Cho: [00:04:28] So I learned Yeah yeah we remember that. Yeah. Sure. Thanks Janine Sickmeyer: [00:17:07] Yeah it was it was funny because I met with a lot of investors on that trip and basically anyone that I could talk to. I was like I'm going to try to reach out to any bankruptcy attorneys any investors you know potential clients whoever I have. It was like researching kind of. Experience for me. So it was really it was really cool. Jeena Cho: [00:17:24] So you know it's kind of rare being a female founder. I'm curious if you can just share a little bit about that journey of becoming an entrepreneur and starting a tech company. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:17:35] Yes it is. It is a little bit rare especially about five years ago. And in the legal market and even more narrow the bankruptcy market. So there. You know. I feel like it's starting to kind of come around. You know there's a lot more female founders that are starting tech companies but there's still not enough resources out there for them. And I'm actually. Playing with the idea of starting my own typecast and I don't know writing a book to help female founders. And I'm I'm working on that now. It's you know a little bit of a challenge to fit in with my current current position here and also with all the kids on the way. [00:18:13] So it's it may take a little bit of time but I have some pretty good ideas of how you know what women are looking for when they're trying to start a tech company and how challenging it can be I guess to get out in front of investors especially when they're you know kind of wondering when the next step of your life is going to be. And it's you know I don't think that that's always. [00:18:32] That's always important when it comes to business if you're you know looking to start a business. [00:18:36] It's OK if you also want to start a family you know. Right. Jeena Cho: [00:18:39] And of course men do it all the time. We're not the person responsible for raising the children. So yeah. So I know you have like lots of balls in the air that you are juggling you know how do you keep yourself from burning out. How do you go about nourishing yourself and maintaining your well-being. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:18:55] Well it's for me personally. I do a lot of a lot of the physical wellness where I'm going to bar classes. [00:19:01] I do yoga. I'm doing spinning you know running a lot of that really helps me just kind of unwind and you know free balance after a long day either you know with kids or with the business with with work. We actually do a lot. And next chapter to kind of avoid that burnout and help kind of get everyone back together and you know just have a little more human interaction because we're all behind the screens all day long talking to our clients and trying to find new ways to find clients. And we actually we have a lot of remote employees too. So we think our team is 14 right now. And there are six of us in our headquarters so the rest of the team is anywhere from Serbia to New York to California. And we actually we do like annual retreats to bring everyone together to make sure that we're not just working in that set and you know day in and day out. So we do a lot of our annual retreats involve a lot of team building activities and bonding and personal development. And it's it's a lot of fun because it gets us together. And I think that's one of the you know one of the main things that we've been able to help with avoiding burnout for them I know especially our developers and you know the designers and those kind of more task oriented positions. Jeena Cho: [00:20:19] And I know that you are a proponent and a practitioner of mindfulness. How did you end the practice saying that it should go about getting into mindfulness. [00:20:29] Yes. So when I was first starting the next chapter it was very lonely. I feel like you know just building a company from scratch can can just be a difficult thing. And I was working in the coffee shops and you know late nights and I didn't have an office yet. You know and Next Chapter was just this idea that I was like I'm passionate about. But it felt you know very stressful too. [00:20:53] And so as much as I loved it there was a lot of anxiety that came with that and I had a lot of loneliness just developing with a few you know a few people through the Internet. And that was it. So I started to take to mindfulness and work on myself when I you know I found that it was just getting very overwhelming to start a business by yourself. So I started meditating. I. [00:21:16] It's not something that comes easy. That was that was something that I had to practice every day. And you know it's weird at first you're like What am I supposed to be doing or thinking about. Am I doing this right. Well yeah but I feel like after I started to develop this habit it was actually very very enlightening and helped me bring back you know all of that stress and kind of let that go and just spring back you know what my actual goals were and think more clearly about how to resolve issues. I actually do a lot of that now with my children too with Elouise about my daughter. She's two and a half and before bed time she's you know a little wild up or kind of a grumpy mood or something. I will you know I'll say let's sit down together and practice our breathing and just you know dim the lights and all kind of have this exercise together. And we've been doing that since she was you know six seven months old and I was like why don't start now. And then she gets it. You know she's like you know when my son's a little wound up he's only one and a half surely he needs to take three deep breaths relax. Guess cute things you know kind of involve that men and some of their favorite little shows. They also talk about it. You know Daniel Tiger is like OK when you're upset count for you know and so she she can relate to that too. Jeena Cho: [00:22:30] And how have you found your mindfulness practice helping you in terms of how you relate to your employees and your clients. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:22:38] Oh yeah I think I think that's when you can take time to think more clearly about it about the situation. [00:22:45] And a lot of times just being aware of of what the actual problem is and how to resolve it. It's just going in you know it's going to help the employees and and clients feel like you know you're actually encouraging them connecting with them better. It's I mean with my employees now I can you know we have a lot of customer support that we deal with with an application like Next Chapter. And so there's a lot of attorneys that are using our product that you know may have run into a snag or a bog or something like that and it can just be very stressful for everyone in the office because we're in a very tight space. So there's like six of us in a very small room so we kind of feed off of each other. You know if there's a difficult client. All of us are kind of in it. And so I'm like you know we we need to find a way to not let these things bother us and just take a break like Get out go on a walk. Just go to yoga. I mean all like basically everybody goes to work out through the middle of the day must be a great way to come back and feel energized and relaxed and really you know once you come back to that to the desk you're like oh that wasn't actually a big deal. [00:23:52] I just needed to get away for a minute and think about what you know the actual problem is so. And then you know it we like to do a lot of our activities together through the day. I think that it will be things like cooking classes or you know we do a lot of volunteer work together. And I think all of that also helps. The company and ultimately helps our clients just feel like we're connected and better mindset about about the business. Jeena Cho: [00:24:17] What are some of the things that you do in your business that makes your business stand out that makes it unique and makes it different from other perhaps other tech companies. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:24:26] So from the very beginning of the business giving back was something that I really wanted to involve in our company and it was it was something that we were all of us were passionate about who kind of started next chapter. And I wanted to find a way to be able to help debtors you know file these bankruptcies but we didn't want to be a consumer facing product at the time. So we kind of found a way to do that through this this one on one model which is is actually inspired by sales force. They they give back the same way. And it's like an integrated philanthropy. We're able to give 1 percent of our equity 1 percent of our time and 1 percent of our product to those and underserved markets. So for us the way we do that is by allowing the attorneys to use the product for free for any pro bono cases. So it's it's been really nice to be able to include that. And you know I know that it's not easy for every company to be able to get back in the same way I think for technology though you can do that with you know students or you know with us we also allow law school students to use next chapter for free. Sometimes professors ask us for their bankruptcy classes if they can use it to you know have their clients or have their students practice. And I think that's you know I think that's really cool. Jeena Cho: [00:25:43] Now I really loved Tad. Thank you so much for your time and for joining me today. Before I let you go the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer. What does it mean to be The Resilient Lawyer to you. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:25:54] Well I think striving in life after all of the struggles and challenges that it takes to build a company. Jeena Cho: [00:26:01] W. Onderful Janene for the listeners that are out there that want to learn more about you and your company what's the best place for them to go and do that. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:26:08] So you can find next chapter online next chapterB.K. dot com or find us on Twitter. Next chapterB.K. Jeena Cho: [00:26:14] Wonderful. Thank you so much. Janine Sickmeyer: [00:26:16] Oh sure. Thanks so much for having me. Closing: [00:26:17] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at [email protected]. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.
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RL 101: Jane Springer — Physical Health for the Modern Woman Lawyer
09/10/2018
RL 101: Jane Springer — Physical Health for the Modern Woman Lawyer
In this episode, I am excited to have Jane Springer on to talk about physical and mental health for the modern woman lawyer. Jane is a Certified Life, Wellness and Style Coach who works primarily with women lawyers who are struggling with their weight due to stress eating. She helps them manage the stress and the eating by teaching them tools that change the way they think so that they can have more energy, lose weight, and have a calmer mind. Jane also serves on the Florida Bar Mental Health and Wellness Committee. Topics Covered The main stressors for a woman lawyer, the coping mechanisms they use to deal with them (like stress eating), and what the results are. How she helps her clients address the underlying feeling that can trigger their coping mechanisms, and how they can change the way they think and feel so that they get different results. What kind of fuel they need to be feeding their bodies so they get the maximum body and brainpower to handle the stressors. She also talks on which kind of movement will serve them best with a busy law practice. Learn more about Jane at: - [email protected] Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Jane Springer: [00:00:00] All the actions that you do come from a thought about it; you may not realize that it was a thought, but that thought generates a feeling inside you. And that feeling drives an action, which might be to grab some candy, or whatever you might go to. And that always creates the result, and the result will point right back to the original thought that you had. Intro: [00:00:26] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:48] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I am really happy to have Jane Springer. She is a certified life wellness and style coach who works primarily with women lawyers who are struggling with their weight due to stress eating. She helps them manage their stress and the eating by teaching them tools that change the way they think so they can have more energy, lose weight, and have a calmer mind. Jane serves on the Florida Bar Mental Health and Wellness Committee. [00:01:15] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to my last bonus episode go back and . I shared a 6 minute guided meditation practice to help you let go of stress and anxiety. It's a preview for my new course, . So often I hear lawyers say that they know they should practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, just start with six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours that you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamins to boost your well-being. Head on over to to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. [00:01:58] And with that, here's Jane. Jane, welcome to the show. Jane Springer: [00:02:01] Thank you Jeena, it's a pleasure to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:03] So let's start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Jane Springer: [00:02:09] Well my name is Jane Springer, and I am a certified life and wellness coach. I also do style coaching for busy professionals like lawyers, who want to feel put together and confident. So I sort of roll it all into one. My husband is an attorney, so this area of helping women lawyers was really a topic that is of personal interest to me. I have three nieces who are lawyers, so de-stressing and helping women lawyers lose weight is really a sweet spot for me. Jeena Cho: [00:02:48] Great. So when we talk about wellness, what does wellness mean to you? I think so often we think about it in terms of exercise, but to me it means so much more than that. So I'm curious how you would think about wellness, and what that means. Jane Springer : [00:03:03] To me, wellness is an overall, overarching, broad feeling that you are handling your life well, that you're eating well, that you have energy, you have enthusiasm for what you're doing, you're taking care of your body, mind, and spirit. It's a large, overarching viewpoint. Jeena Cho: [00:03:34] And in your work with women lawyers, what are the main stressors that you see them struggling with? And how do they typically deal with it? Jane Springer: [00:03:46] Well I've interviewed many women lawyers (in addition to my own family members), and what I have found is that their main stressors are worrying about deadlines; there's a brief due, there's an order due, there's research due. So deadlines, demanding clients, and demanding partners. And now that you're available 24/7 it's even more so, because they can reach you at any time. Work and family life balance, trying to leave work in time to pick up your children, trying to have time to spend with your spouse, that's another stressor. And then money. If you are an associate, you may not be making the kind of money that you would really like to make, so you may be worrying about money and your family. But also if you're a solo or duo practitioner, you're concerned about the money coming in and the money going out, and how to pay all the bills and pay your employees. There's a lot of stressors going on. Jeena Cho: [00:04:56] And what are the default tools that lawyers use, or what are some of the coping mechanisms that they use to deal with all the stressors? Jane Springer: [00:05:07] What I have found is: stress eating. In the demanding world that they are in, they may reach for something to eat, something sugary, or a carb or processed food that's fast so they can get back to work. So something to give them a little boost of energy. Stress drinking; that when they get home all they want to do is sit down and have their wine, and they may not eat the way they should. They may have very little time for exercise, or make no time for exercise because there's so much going on. And there's anxiety, depression, you may have weight gain because of all that you're doing and trying to cope with. And it may end up in burn out, or even leaving the profession because of all the stresses involved. Jeena Cho: [00:06:07] So these are self-soothing behaviors that they're engaging in that are not helpful, and that are probably actually exacerbating the situation? Jane Springer: [00:06:19] Yes. Jeena Cho: [00:06:19] So when you start to work with a client, what are some of the first steps that you have them take? How can they change the way they think and feel, so that they stop doing the behaviors that they know are not working for them? Jane Springer: [00:06:36] Back to your point that you just made, what they're getting from those ways of coping (like in the eating and the drinking) is a dopamine hit. And yeah, that will give you energy and lift you up for a little while, and then you crash after that. So it is a habit that you develop. So what I like to do when I work with my clients first is have them explain to me what their main issue is; do they want to lose weight, do they want to de-stress? I find out what their needs are. [00:07:14] I also almost right away will teach them a tool that they can use in looking and examining (because lawyers can be very analytical and critical thinkers, so I like to give them something that they can work with right away) that all the actions you do come from a thought about it; you may not realize that it was a thought, but that thought generates a feeling inside you. And that feeling drives an action, which might be to grab some candy, or whatever you go to. And that always creates the result, and the result will point right back up to the original thought that you have. So I like to teach them that first, so that they understand the consequences and the results that they get from the thoughts and the feelings that they have. That's the first thing I do. Jeena Cho: [00:08:10] Okay, so if we can actually drill down a little bit and use a specific example. Let's say it's Friday at 4 pm, I'm getting ready to run out the door and I have weekend plans, and the partner comes up to my desk and says, "Hey, I actually need you to work on this motion to dismiss this weekend." What would be an example of a thought that would trigger this cycle? Jane Springer: [00:08:35] I'll never finish that by 5 pm, or by 6 pm that I have to pick up my child by. Jeena Cho: [00:08:42] Right, and now my weekend is ruined; I'm not going to be able to go away with my girlfriends, or whatever it is that I had planned for the weekend. And then what is the behavior that follows that thought? Jane Springer: [00:08:54] Well the first thing that happens after the thought is a feeling that you get inside. So the feeling would be either anxiety, because you've got this work assignment that you weren't planning on having. But whatever the feeling is, disappointment that you can't do what you were going to do with your family or your girlfriends, but you identify the feeling.. Jeena Cho: [00:09:16] So anger, frustration, outrage. Jane Springer: [00:09:22] Exactly, all those things. And from there, what is the action that you take? You realize you've got to do this work, so you undertake doing the work; you either stay late, or you're tied up over the weekend. But when you're doing it, you are feeling very resentful and under more pressure because your family or friends are disappointed as well, it's affected your whole weekend. So your feeling at that point is resentment, maybe still anger, it could be anything. And then your action is you're doing the work that needs to be done, but you may not do it to the best of your ability or focus, because of the feelings that you have involved. And the result is, you may have a work product that's not your best work; there may be errors in it, and it may not be your best product. Jeena Cho: [00:10:28] And the action could also be, you know what I just don't have the capacity to deal with this right now. I'm going to go home, open up a bottle of wine, and I'm going to treat myself for a few glasses, and then we'll see how I feel in the morning about this whole work situation. Jane Springer: [00:10:44] Exactly, that's exactly what can happen as well. And then the result is your resolve to eat healthy for dinner may go out the window, your interaction with your family may be affected because you're still angry and frustrated. So the results are less than ideal, for sure. Jeena Cho: [00:11:15] So when you're working with your client.. I mean, I understand that obviously going home and drinking to excess, or sitting down with a bag of potato chips or a pint of ice cream or whatever may not be the best way to soothe those feelings. Then I also get that you're then saying try eating some pistachios or cashews, instead of eating that gallon of ice cream. But how do you help the clients actually address that underlying feeling? Jane Springer: [00:11:47] The first thing I do is help them identify the process that they just went through, by using the tool. What I tell them is, let's be curious about this; not with a spirit of condemnation, but with curiosity about how this process happens. And also, be compassionate. Because it always is better for yourself when you're being compassionate than when you're in a negative state of mind about yourself. First of all, we're curious about what drove this action and all that, but then I help them to turn it around. And then we use that tool again, but in a way that has a more positive action end result. [00:12:44] So let's say this happened, your partner came to the door and said I need you to have this done by 8 am on Monday. Instead of immediately reacting, I recommend that they stop; take a pause, as you were talking about you're Mindful Pause, stop and take five deep breaths. Take an inhale, hold it for a little bit, and just let it out so that you can decompress that moment right when that happens. Then think about what drove the thought, but then we're going to think about what might be a better action? And you can attack it from the result-action feeling or thought. Or you can attack at the other direction, what thought would you need to come up with that would be better? Because what you're doing is creating new neuropathways; you're going to really develop and use your brain. [00:13:59] And lawyers are smart, so they're going to be able to identify with this. But you want to develop new neuropathways, and then the more you repeat that thought, that action, that feeling, the old thought is going to recede. So instead of reacting like, he's so he's so thoughtless to do this at the last minute to me, your new thought might be, "Okay I can handle this. I've done it before, I can do it again. Perhaps I can work out a way to finish this and still have some family time." But come up with a thought that turns around your brain, so that you can handle it better. And then from that thought, I can figure this out (that's a good one, I use that one a lot) and maybe still have some time with my family or my friends. And then the feeling from that is definitely calmer, you're not going to have that frustration to that level. And then the action you take is, okay well I'm going to work on this from this to this time, and then from this to this time, I'm the set aside for my friends or my family. And the result is, you get the paper done, but you also got at least some time with your family. So I'm helping them work a model that turns around the negative. Jeena Cho: [00:15:29] Does that also involve sometimes helping the clients to set boundaries? Because I think so often that happens with women lawyers, they let everyone pile work on them, without any consideration as to how much work they can realistically do, and do well. Jane Springer: [00:15:48] Yeah, I totally agree with that. One option, and I know that it's intimidating if you're an associate and it's the partner that comes to your door. But you can say I'm sorry, I need to do this right now, or I have plans for the weekend but I will come in early on Monday morning and do whatever it is that they assigned you to do. So yes, I definitely agree on setting reasonable boundaries for sure. Otherwise, they'll just keep dumping that stuff on you. Jeena Cho: [00:16:21] Right. So let's shift gears a little bit, and talk about actually feeling the body. What are some of the suggestions that you have for feeding the body, so that lawyers can get the maximum body and brain power to handle all of these different stressors? Jane Springer: [00:16:40] Well it probably won't be a popular way of looking at it, but I would say limit your sugar and your flour, your processed foods. And the reason for that is, I mean everybody says you should quit sugar, but your body really does not need them. It wasn't made for them, and it actually drains your natural energy. It's going to give you a boost right away, but then it's going to come right back down. What happens when you raise your blood sugar with sugar or flour products, it raises your blood sugar, but it also raises your insulin level. And insulin is a fat-storing hormone, so you don't want to eat those types of food because the result will be you'll have more fat storing, especially around your middle and liver. So avoiding sugar and flour products, and eating whole foods; having a healthy fat, a protein, green, leafy, colorful vegetables, that will give you your maximum energy. And then my recommendation is to limit your alcohol, but that's always up to the individual. It does take you out of a fat burning state into another state that is not as good for your body, and it also changes your resolve. You're having empty calories; it may relax you, but it's also going to relax you making good choices, in terms of diet and exercise. So yeah, healthy fat, protein, green, leafy, colorful vegetables, and limit your blood sugar, insulin, and alcohol. Jeena Cho: [00:18:32] When you say limit alcohol, now the lawyer in me is like well how much is too much, and what do you mean when you say limit? So if you had to offer some general guideline, in terms of let's say daily consumption, how many servings are we talking about? Jane Springer: [00:18:47] I hate to even say that, because I don't really know. I am not an alcohol drinker myself, so I can't really address that. All I know is that the clients that I work with, they have a very tough time losing weight when they're still consuming two or more glasses of a wine a day. Jeena Cho: [00:19:13] Yeah, you know the food rule that I really like, that I think really kind of keep things simple is.. are you familiar with Michael Pollan? Jane Springer: [00:19:20] Yes. Jeena Cho: [00:19:21] He says, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. And I think that's such a great rule to live by, eat real food. And he also suggests shopping in the outside of the grocery store, not in the middle where all the boxed and canned and frozen stuff lives, and sticking to the outside of the grocery store where all the produce is. So I think having these simple rules, because I feel like we are so bombarded with all these different things that we're trying to keep in our heads, and I think having too many food restrictions is very taxing. At least I find it to be very taxing, to try to remember what it is a grain that I'm supposed to eat and I'm not supposed to eat? And I think obviously finding something that works for you is super important too. Jane Springer: [00:20:17] Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that's pretty much what I do as well. Anything you're going to find in the middle of the aisles is going to be processed food for the most part. Anytime you've crushed and condensed any kind of flour down, down, down, and then made it into some concoction with chemicals and stuff to hold it together so it can stay on the shelf longer, it's going to drive your insulin up. So I totally agree with you. Now I will say that frozen vegetables can be a real handy thing for busy lawyers, because when they freeze those vegetables they do it right away. Sometimes those vegetables are more fresh (as long as you don't cook them to death) than the ones you'll find that have been sitting around out in the outer. Jeena Cho: [00:21:16] Let's talk briefly about movement, and I also notice that you use that word movement and not exercise. I tend to be somewhat allergic to that word exercise because that makes it sound like something that I have to do. Whereas movement is just something that I naturally do. So what kind of movements do you recommend for busy lawyers? Jane Springer: [00:21:38] First of all, I recommend that if you can do it early in the day, before work or on your lunch hour, you're much more likely to continue to do it, because that's when you have the energy. You're going to be less likely to do it in the evenings, put it that way. So the time of day is important. And I recommend walking; even if you're at your desk, you've got an assignment due or a brief to finish or whatever. Getting up and walking around, or getting up and walking the stairs if you're...
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RL 100: Joan Williams — Implicit Bias in the Workplace
09/03/2018
RL 100: Joan Williams — Implicit Bias in the Workplace
In this episode I am excited to have Joan Williams on to talk about gender and race, and how they play out in the workplace through her new "Bias at Work" survey. Joan is a Distinguished Professor of Law and Founding Director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California, Hastings. Her path-breaking work helped create the field of work-family studies and modern workplace flexibility policies. She has been studying the legal profession and how to improve it for decades. Topics Covered She defines implicit bias and examples of the four basic ways they can show up at work: Prove It Again, Tightrope, Maternal Wall, and Tug of War. Why WorkLife Law created the "Bias at Work" survey, and it's goal. How the types of subtle bias that are captured in the "Bias at Work" survey affect lawyers. What law firms and legal organizations can do to stop these subtle biases from affecting their employees. Learn more about Joan at: Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Joan Williams: [00:00:00] Implicit bias is a technical term that I use because most people know it, it implies that the bias that's going around is unconscious and subtle. And I think actually that's quite misleading, I think a lot of it is pretty blatant. And I frankly don't think it's that important, whether the person who's engaged in biased behavior chooses to bring that to their consciousness or not. Intro: [00:00:27] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:47] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I have Joan Williams. She is a Distinguished Professor of Law and Founding Director of the Center for WorkLife Law at the University of California, Hastings. Her path-breaking work helped create the field of work-family studies and modern workplace flexibility policies. She has been studying the legal profession and how to improve it for decades. Joan welcome to the show, I'm so happy to have you. Joan Williams: [00:01:19] I'm delighted to be here, thanks for inviting me. Jeena Cho: [00:01:22] So can you give us a quick 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do? Joan Williams: [00:01:29] I've been a law professor for a very long time, and I've been studying gender for a very long time. I started out studying work-family issues, and now my chief focus is on gender and race in the workplace, and how they play out in subtle ways. Which is why we're excited about our new "" survey that allows people to go in and answer a few questions, and get a quick readout of what kind of bias climate they are reporting at work. Jeena Cho: [00:02:00] And what have you been finding, in terms of bias at work so far? Joan Williams: [00:02:05] Well, the "Bias at Work" survey is part of a larger survey that we've used on that, to assess the bias climate first in engineering, and more recently in the legal profession. I co-wrote a study for the ABA Commission on Women in the Minority Corporate Counsel Association, where we gave the larger survey to a national sample of lawyers, and we're just about to come out with the results. Bottom line is, there's a lot of implicit bias going around. Jeena Cho: [00:02:42] To start off, I think that term implicit bias gets kind of tossed around a lot. What do you mean when you say implicit bias? Joan Williams: [00:02:50] There is really just a lot of gender and racial bias, in addition to bias based on other personal characteristics. Implicit bias is a technical term that I use because most people know it. It implies that the bias that's going around is unconscious and subtle, and I think actually that's quite misleading. I think a lot of it is pretty blatant, and I frankly don't think it's that important whether the person who's engaged in biased behavior chooses to bring that to their consciousness or not. I always say, if you're clueless whose fault is that? Jeena Cho: [00:03:32] What are some examples of how these implicit biases show up at work? Joan Williams: [00:03:38] Well there are four basic types. The first, I call "prove it again." And it's that some people find they need to prove themselves more so than their colleagues. And it's definitely triggered by race, it's triggered by gender, it's triggered by class origin in professions like the legal profession. People who were born in non-elite backgrounds have to prove themselves more than people from elite families. It's also triggered by disability, so that's proved again. The second is quite different, it's called "the tightrope." It stems from research on women that shows that a narrower range of behavior is accepted from women. So women often have to choose between being liked but not respected, or respected but not liked. And when they're assertive they're called aggressive, or worse. Anger is less accepted, self-promotion is less accepted from women than from men. And our research with things like the "Bias at Work" survey shows that a narrower range of behavior is accepted not only by gender, but also by race. So it affects people of color, men as well as women. For example, anger is less likely to be accepted in a professional workplace when it comes from an African-American. Jeena Cho: [00:05:19] Yeah. Joan Williams: [00:05:21] And the third pattern of bias is actually the strongest, it's called "the maternal wall"; its gender bias triggered by motherhood. It affects dads too, if they play an active role in family care. And then the final one is called "the tug of war," and that's when gender or racial bias turns into a conflict within those groups. Jeena Cho: [00:05:46] You know, these issues just seem so big. And so often people aren't aware of it, or you may not be aware that you're treating someone that's a woman or a person of color differently than you do someone who's a white male or looks like you. So how do we begin to become aware of it, and change these behaviors? Joan Williams: [00:06:14] Well actually people are in luck because they can go to our website, which is , and we have a full set of open-sourced toolkits for interrupting bias based on a bias in performance evaluations, in hiring, in meetings, and in assignments. And just going to the website and using the tools for individuals will help give you a very abrupt (and we hope efficient) education on how these patterns of bias commonly play out in the legal profession, and how it interrupt it. Jeena Cho: [00:07:01] I love that, I love that there's a toolkit and people can just go there and look at it. I often feel like, especially being a woman of color and in the legal profession, I always felt like there was so much focus on changing me, or changing us and our behavior. I remember going to these workshops on how to handle interruptions, or how to handle when someone else claims your idea as their own. So how much of this work needs to be done by the people that these behavior's impact, so women and people of color, versus white males? Joan Williams: [00:07:49] Yeah. And I think it's important to point out that for some of these patterns, specifically proven again, white men from non-elite backgrounds may be having the same kinds of problems that women and people of color are having. [00:08:06] I mean we've been working on these problems and supposedly deeply caring about diversity in the legal profession for 20 or 30 years, and almost nothing has happened. When I gave my first program on women in the legal profession in 1997, 17% of a law firm's partners were women. Do you know what it is today, for equity partners? Jeena Cho: [00:08:33] Oh I look at the data, yeah. Joan Williams: [00:08:35] It's, oh my gosh. So what we've been doing hasn't been working, and that's chiefly because the chief tools have been diversity initiatives or women's initiatives. And as you point out, that's totally great if the problem is with the women and people of color, but typically that's not the problem. The problem is that these forms of bias have been constantly transmitted through an organization's basic business systems, which is why the other set of toolkits on that Bias Interrupters web page are tools for organizations, tweaks they can make to their hiring or performance evaluations, systems that will in an evidence-based, metrics-driven way, interrupt this constant transmission of bias through basic business systems and workplace interactions. Jeena Cho: [00:09:33] So for the listeners that are out there that are like, yeah maybe I have some biases and I want to figure out a way to interrupt it, can you give one or two concrete examples or suggestions on how they can change their behavior? Joan Williams: [00:09:54] I actually wrote a whole book on that with my daughter Rachel Dempsey, it's called "." And what I did for that book is just went around to the savviest women I could find, recited the common patterns of gender bias, and said any of that sound familiar? 96% said yes. And what's worked for you? Then that's what works for women at work. And I'll give you some examples. You mentioned the stolen idea, when you mention an idea and someone else gets credit for it. Well the next time that happens, you can do several different things. One is you can just say really mildly or with humor, "So glad you liked that idea, here's the next step." Or you can work behind the scenes if, that happens persistently, and set up a little posse of people who either echo each other's ideas, making it clear who the idea came from. Or when someone steals an idea, they can say, "I'm so glad you like Jenna's idea. I think you've added something important Jim, here's the next step." So what we have and what we gathered in what works for women at work were a lot of low-risk strategies for interrupting bias (on your own or on behalf of others) without spending too much political capital. Jeena Cho: [00:11:32] Yeah, I love that suggestion. What can law firms or legal organizations do to stop these subtle or implicit biases from affecting their employees? Joan Williams: [00:11:44] Well lucky them, because within the month or very early next month will be released a new report that we did for the ABA Commission on Women and Minority Corporate Counsel Association. It's called "You Can't Stop What You Can't See," and it has not only the results of our national survey on racial and gender bias in the legal profession, but also a full set of open source toolkits specifically designed for law firm lawyers and in-house counsel. So they're going to have to toolkits very specifically designed for those environments that will allow them to find out if they have bias through the workplace experiences survey, and then interrupt the biases if they do. I'll give you an example on the issue of assignments, because that's been less talked about. In "What Works for Women at Work," my daughter Rachel Dempsey coined the term "the office housework," and that women do a lot more of the office housework than men. The undervalued work, the literal housework like planning parties, and administrative work like finding a time or place to meet. So one of the toolkits that we have is a toolkit that provides a protocol for an individual manager or department or a whole organization, to find out if there is a fair allocation of the glamour work on one hand, and the office housework on the other. And then to establish a very specific protocol for remedying both problems. If you have nothing but women doing the office housework, there's a protocol for spreading that around more evenly. And if you have nothing but a small group of white men getting the glamour work, there's a step-by-step protocol for remedying that problem. Jeena Cho: [00:13:56] Yeah, I love that. And I think that's something that happens all the time in offices. I remember being given instructions like, don't sit next to the food because you don't want to be responsible for serving the food, and all of these rules that you to keep in your head for just trying to navigate the law firm environment, so you don't end up as the office housewife. Joan Williams: [00:14:19] Yeah, and the bottom line is that takes up brain space, and it has the potential of undercutting women's credibility. Asian American women are under more pressure than any other group of women to behave in feminine ways, and face often more pushback if they don't. And the bottom line is that that shouldn't be your job, to constantly be heading off bias at the pass. That is really the organization's job, to put in systems that seamlessly interrupt those common patterns of bias. Jeena Cho: [00:14:58] Sometimes when I have these conversations I get pushback, and the pushback is why should we treat the women or the people of color special? Why do they get their own retreat, for example, at a law firm? Why do they get their own woman lawyer meetings or groups? And that's somehow biased against the white males. I'm curious what your response is to that? Joan Williams: [00:15:29] We are already treating the women and people of color differently. The nationwide study of engineers found that if you ask American engineers if they feel like they have to prove themselves more than their colleagues, it's true that 1/3 of white men say yes, but 2/3's of women and 2/3's of people of color say yes. So those women's and diversity initiatives are designed, at best, to help women and people of color navigate problems that they face, in that case twice as often as white men. Jeena Cho: [00:16:15] The other place where I often notice is very glaringly, because I spend so much time traveling around the country and speaking, is so many legal conferences. I can probably randomly pick any legal conference (unless it's being put on by a woman's organization or an Asian Bar Association or the Minority Bar Association) and there is not a whole lot of diversity in the pool of the speakers. And often when I point this out to the organizers and say, "Hey you have 80 speakers and you literally had six women and one person of color, me. That's a problem." They will come back and say something like, well we care about diversity but we're not going to sacrifice quality to have diversity, and we just picked the most qualified speaker. What's your response to that? Joan Williams: [00:17:16] You know, it kind of depends on the field. Some fields are very small and they have a certain demography. If that's true, then you should be thinking about what fields are represented at your conference. But most fields in the law are large and diverse, and probably what's happening is.. I remember going into the Dean when I was at Harvard Law School and asking why there was one woman on the faculty as a tenured woman. And he batted his eyelashes at me, bless his heart, and said there's none qualified. And I said, in the whole country? And he said no. So that is a failure of imagination and it's a failure of social networks. Because how do people put together conferences? They're putting them together under time pressure, they go through their networks, and the single strongest determinant of who is in your network is who's similar to you. So they need to either diversify their network, that would be a good idea, or make sure that the planning committee represents diversified networks by adding other people to the planning committee whose networks will help them tap the full pool of talent. Jeena Cho: [00:18:52] Yeah, and also the other thing I often notice is the planning committee will be let's say 10 people, 9 of them will be white males and they'll have one woman or one person of color, and they'll literally tell me, "Well she was responsible for finding us diverse speakers, and she didn't." And I always feel like no, it can't be up to one person within an organization or within a conference planning committee to fix your diversity problem. And I think so often that happens, like in law firms we have people that are Director of Diversity and Inclusion, and that person gets scapegoated if you fail on the diversity and inclusion front. Joan Williams: [00:19:34] That's not called caring about diversity, that's called not caring about diversity. One of the problems and reasons there's been so little progress is that again, the organizational response to the failure to retain and advance women and people of color often has been to hire somebody as a Diversity and Inclusion manager, and give them a budget for programming. Well the reason that women and people of color are falling out of the pipeline is because they have to prove themselves more than the white guys from elite backgrounds, a narrower range of behavior is accepted from the women and people of color, they're under a lot of pressure to play back office roles, they're not given equal access to the glamour work. For women, motherhood is often used as an excuse to sideline women, and the ideal worker still is designed around a man married to a homemaker. Those are not problems that you can solve by hiring a D&I manager and giving her a budget. That response is again showing that you don't care as an organization. Jeena Cho: [00:20:59] Hmm. You just made this point a little while ago, but we do tend to hang out and associate with people that are like us; I think that's sort of a human nature. So if you look around your network and your circle of friends and colleagues and you notice, they all look like me, they went to the same law school. If you're a white male, it's like oh yeah so many people that I work with are white males and they all went to the same law school that I went to. Thoughts or suggestions on how to expand your network? Even just opening your mind to different ideas. I think it's sometimes harder and uncomfortable to try to reach out and make connections. You know, how to be with that discomfort and start to make those positive changes in your life? Joan Williams: [00:21:58] I think it's particularly hard for women, I think it's particularly hard for Asian Americans. It's hard for women because the default model of friendship differs by gender. For women, the default model of friendship is to be a good friend you're very open, you have a deep emotional connection, you share troubles. The default model of friendships among the bros is that you have a broad network of relatively shallow ties, and the fact that you're going to help each other's careers is kind of a given. Whereas, if a woman tries to, for example, get business from a friend, it may be seen as, "Oh my gosh I thought we were talking about emotional issues and having an emotional connection." And that context, particularly for women in law firms who really have to take steps towards rainmaking, that is where the action is in almost all law firms. You need to establish what's called an entrepreneurial network. You need to understand that another genuine way of interacting with people, male as well as female, is to engage in what the guys do. Which is kind of a ritual exchange of favors, like I'll do you this professional good turn and you'll do me this professional good turn. That's not a bad model of friendship, it's just a different default model of friendship. So that's one of...
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RL 99: Billie Tarascio — Operating a Law Firm That Values Wellness
08/27/2018
RL 99: Billie Tarascio — Operating a Law Firm That Values Wellness
In this episode, I am excited to have Billie Tarascio on to talk about starting and operating a law firm that focuses on putting a wellness culture first. Billie is a family law attorney and the owner of Modern Law and Modern Law Practice, LLC in Phoenix, Arizona. Modern Law has been recognized as one of the fastest growing and culture-forward firms in the country through it's focus on employee wellness and whole health. She is a mother of four, a yoga and mind enthusiast, and the author of two books: and Tiger Tactics: Powerful Tools for Successful Attorneys. Topics Covered Starting a small law practice: how she ended up starting her practice and tips/tools she used to navigate such a large life change. She also talks on how she got into family law. How her law firm is organized differently than a traditional firm and how she finds balance, skills she had to learn, and what she wishes she had known. She also talks on time management and how to intentionally carve out time to do the things that need to be done. How she decided to start her own practice, how she chose her practice area, and how although we are not taught to be business owners, it can be easier than you think if you go about it the right way. She talks on marketing, how she figures out what works for her and how law firms should approach marketing. The COBE set of standards that her law firm holds as their core values: Compassion, Optimism, Bravery, and Empathy. Learn more about Billie and Modern Law Practice at: Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! . You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: For more information, visit: Order book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? Transcript Billie Tarascio: [00:00:01] Marketing is about communicating what our clients need to know; to provide information and content that is most relevant to them, talking about broad spectrum problems and issues, and also being very real about who we are and what it is that we can offer and bring to the table. Intro: [00:00:23] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho. Jeena Cho: [00:00:44] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me today. In this episode, I'm so happy to have Billie Tarascio. She is a family law attorney and an owner of and Modern Law Practice in Phoenix, Arizona. Modern Law has been recognized as one of the fastest growing and culture-forward firms in the country, through its focus on employee wellness and whole health. She is the mother of four, a yoga and wine enthusiast, and she's the author of two books: "Tiger Tactics: Powerful Tools for Successful Attorneys" and "." [00:01:18] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode go back and . I shared a 6-minute guided meditation practice to work with loneliness. It's a preview for my new course, . So often I hear from lawyers that they know they should practice mindfulness and meditation, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell lawyers, start with just six minutes or .1 hour. Of all the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have at least .1 hour to yourself? Mindful Pause is designed for lawyers like you, to fit into your very hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being. Head on over to to learn more, or check it out in the show notes. And with that, here's Billie. Billie, welcome to the show. Billie Tarascio: [00:02:07] Thank you so much, glad to be here. Jeena Cho: [00:02:08] So let's just start by having you give us a 30-second introduction of who you are and what you do. Billie Tarascio: [00:02:16] Well, my name's Billie Tarascio. I'm an attorney, a mom, an entrepreneur, a business owner, and I love wine, yoga, and all things outdoors and travel. Jeena Cho: [00:02:30] Wonderful. So maybe we can go back a little bit, did you start your own law practice right out of law school? How did you end up starting this business? Billie Tarascio: [00:02:43] I knew really early on that I did want to own a law firm and start my own practice, and I knew I didn't really want a traditional career path. My oldest son was born my third year in law school, and I knew right away I didn't want to go into big law. So right away I sort of designed a career path that would allow me to learn as much as possible. And I worked for four or so firms as a contractor, different sizes and different types of individuals, and just started studying how they did what they did. Jeena Cho: [00:03:26] And how did you end up focusing on family law? Billie Tarascio: [00:03:31] I knew early on I wanted to do family law. I was probably impacted most by my parent's divorce; they went through a divorce when I was early in college and I knew I wanted to go to law school, and it just seemed like such a real law. Law that really had an impact on people's lives, and was less focused on technical terms and more focused on how do I solve problems and how do I really have an impact on people. Jeena Cho: [00:04:03] Yeah, I think that's the reason why a lot of people end up in their practice areas, because of personal experience. I have talked to criminal defense attorneys and they had some run-ins with the law that also inspired them to do their practice area. [00:04:17] So tell me more about Modern Law, how are you guys organized and how is it different than a traditional law firm? Billie Tarascio: [00:04:26] Sure. Modern Law is a family law firm in the greater Phoenix area, and I think it looks like most modern law firms; we have work-from-home policies, everything's cloud-based, it's very millennial-focused where I'm not asking you to check in a certain time. We work when we need to to get our jobs done, and there's a lot of freedom and a lot of autonomy. And at the same time, there's accountability and structure, meetings, communication, and collaboration. Jeena Cho: [00:05:05] Do you guys have a physical office that you come to, or are you guys completely virtual? Billie Tarascio: [00:05:11] No, we do we have two physical office spaces, but attendance in them is not required. Jeena Cho: [00:05:17] It's just so different than a traditional law firm. I think it's less true now, but I remember when I started practicing law back in 2003 or 2004, face time was very important. There was a lot of emphasis on spending as much time as you possibly can sitting behind your desk, because I don't know why. It was always drilled into me, you should just have like a lot of face time at the office. I remember being like, I don't have any work. Why do I need to be sitting behind my desk? That doesn't make any sense. Billie Tarascio: [00:05:50] No, it doesn't. And it's not that face time isn't important, but face time for the sake of face time is not important. Jeena Cho: [00:05:58] Yeah, great point. So I know you have this law practice, but you also have an interest in having a more balanced lifestyle, especially I would imagine with kids it's always a struggle. So how do you go about finding balance, and what does balance look like to you? Billie Tarascio: [00:06:20] Balance, for me, is spending time on things that are important and most valuable. And by constantly doing that analysis and determining what is the most important thing for me to be spending my time on right now, I find that I can do almost everything that I want to do. Jeena Cho: [00:06:45] What are the top three most important things, and how do you go about actually checking in to make sure that you're prioritizing those things? I think we all kind of intuitively think, I need to have a healthy diet, I need to get some exercise, I need to spend time with family and friends, and I also need to get work done. But just in terms of the day-to-day, "how to prioritize," I think oftentimes we tend to do the thing that feels most pressing and important, rather than taking a step back and saying, "Okay these are my priorities, and how do I actually carve out time?" Because I think things like spending time with friends and family can often go by the wayside. Billie Tarascio: [00:07:30] Right, I completely agree. What happens to me, and probably a lot of people, is things just creep up and we can feel ourselves approaching burn out. We can feel anxiety growing or we're not sleeping, our body is giving us indications that things are out of balance. Sometimes it takes a while before we're like, oh my gosh I'm miserable. And I think we all go through it, but I think it's a great time to say let's take a step back, let's look at all of my tasks, all of my priorities, and reassess and make changes. Because we're not slaves to our circumstances at the moment; we have the ability to make changes, to change priorities, to delegate different tasks, and to be living the life we want to live. It just takes a lot of effort. Jeena Cho: [00:08:34] Yeah. What tools or suggestions do you have for lawyers out there for gaining clarity on those things that are important to you, and also actually intentionally carving out time on a regular basis for including those in your schedule? Billie Tarascio: [00:08:55] Two amazing questions. Let's start with the second one, how do we make sure that we can take the time to do the things we know we need to do, but they're hard to get done? And I think that that all comes down to routine. At Modern Law we close early on Friday's and we bring in a yoga instructor, so that at least every Friday we've got time set aside for physical activity and mental wellness and checking in. I find it really hard to spend as much time doing physical activity as I wish I could. I don't have a great routine for that; it's pretty easy to do on the weekends, it pretty easy to do on Friday afternoon when we close early, but it's challenging to do during the week. And it's challenging to do when I'm traveling, which I've ended up doing more and more. So if you have any tips, I would love to know how to work that in. Jeena Cho: [00:09:56] Yeah, so once a week on Sunday's I look at my week and just see what's in my calendar. And I'm all about scheduling things, so I will regularly put 15-minute breaks in my calendar. Because you know how it goes, if you just allow things to end up on your calendar you'll just devote all of your time to everyone else, and then not yourself. I also like to sign up for things where there is no refund; my local yoga studio, you have to sign up in advance and I hate losing money, so I'll sign up for 2 yoga classes and I just feel terrible if I don't go, so I make myself go. I also try to spend as much time as I possibly can on the weekends outdoors, I think having that connection to nature is so healing. I also have the best insights when I'm out and about and just walking around. I will also schedule personal retreats, I usually try to take a week a couple times a year where it's just.. it's not really a vacation because I feel like when you go on vacation there's a lot of stuff that you do on vacation. But I'll find a little cabin out in the woods somewhere with no internet and bring good reading materials, and just spend a lot of time outdoors. But I think also finding something that works for you is really important. I know for some people it's playing a musical instrument or painting; I think there are just different things that we all need to do to nourish ourselves, and that's such a challenge. It's a struggle for me, and I have yet to meet someone that's like, I've got this wellness thing all figured out. I think it's always a challenge and a struggle. [00:11:55] So one of the things they don't teach you in law school is how to be an entrepreneur, and I certainly found that to be a challenge when I started my own law practice; no one taught me how to do accounting, how to manage a trust account, or how to do marketing. What tips or suggestions do you have for lawyers out there that are thinking about starting their own practice? Billie Tarascio: [00:12:24] Well I'm glad that we're talking about this, because it's something that I'm hugely passionate about. You gave a couple of examples, how to do a trust account, how to do accounting, or how to do marketing. And no, we are not taught how to be business owners, but you can go learn something like accounting or trust accounting; there are directions and rules. But most of law practice there isn't; there is no guidebook, there isn't a standard model that works. When we talk to our mentors who are 30 years older than us, they were living under a different set of conditions and completely different rules for how to practice and how to make practicing work. I happen to just really like this stuff. so I've spent the last 10 years in my law firm experimenting with how we do consultations, how long should intake take, what are the conversion rates from the number of people who contact us to schedule to show up? What is the right AR ratio? All these little, nuanced details of practicing. A projection that I'm working on now in my practice is taking these best practices that I've been able to create, predictability and security in my firm, and plugging them into other law firms to say, does this work across the board? Not every lawyer wants to be an entrepreneur; some lawyers don't want to work for a firm that is outdated and works poorly, but they also don't want to spend the time to figure out everything from scratch. Jeena Cho: [00:14:22] So I guess for the lawyers out there that are like, I want to start my own practice but don't really like the idea of marketing.. and I think also sometimes lawyers have a misunderstanding about what marketing is. They think I don't want my face on a billboard, or they think about doing marketing in a way that doesn't align with who they are. So I'm curious, when you're doing marketing how do you think about doing it and go about figuring out what's going to work for you? Billie Tarascio: [00:15:00] So, we have marketing philosophies that are pretty ingrained, and that's that marketing is about communicating what our clients need to know; to provide information and content that is most relevant to them, talking about broad spectrum problems and issues, and also being very real about who we are and what it is that we can offer and bring to the table. Jeena Cho: [00:15:35] How is your law firm different than other family law firms? When you're doing your 30-second pitch about who you are and what you do, what makes you unique and different? Billie Tarascio: [00:15:52] It all comes down to our values. And it took several years to really uncover these values, but once we did (and it's not that we chose them, it's that we dug down to find them, because they were always there) and they are: whole health, growth, and this acronym called "C.O.B.E.", which stands for compassion, optimism, bravery, and empathy. So we've taken these values and we've written out, what does this really mean? Both internally in how we treat one another, and externally in how we treat our clients. These values are our Constitution, so we are committed to the whole health of our clients. Which means we will not take actions in their divorce that will hurt them or their families long-term. It's not an option. So if you ask us to do something that is outside of our values, then we're not going to do it and you're probably not a good fit for the law firm. So really knowing who we were and communicating to our potential clients who would be a good fit has made all the difference in attracting the right clients, and being able to differentiate us from the lot. Jeena Cho: [00:17:05] Oh, I love that. So let's go through COBE. The first one, compassion; I talk a lot about compassion with lawyers, and usually I get the rolling of the eyes or I can sense the collective cringe in the room. So when you say compassion, what does that mean to you? Billie Tarascio: [00:17:26] It means understanding that even though I've been practicing divorce since 2005, the person sitting across from me is going through this for the first time. So even though I may feel like this doesn't matter or this is routine, it is not routine for them, and the things we take for granted are not things that they may know. And we're going to intentionally set aside our baggage to be present for them, and compassionate for where they're at. Jeena Cho: [00:18:00] So it doesn't mean that you're going to concede to what the other party wants always, or always show up chipper and happy, or you are going to get along with everyone, which is some of the feedback that I get whenever I talk about compression. They're like oh Jeena, I know you live out in California and you do the compassion stuff. And I think the point you made about the things that are important to our clients that we may not even think about is so true. I do bankruptcy law and I'm often surprised that know clients will have these huge concerns about losing their dog or their mother's necklace that they got when their mom passed away. And I'm usually like no you can keep your dog, but I think sometimes we need to pause and dig a little bit and say, tell me about the significance of that. Because I think we can actually end up getting a lot of information and also gain a better understanding of where our clients are coming from. Billie Tarascio: [00:19:06] Right, yeah. So compassion is probably also like curiosity; be there, get to know these people on a human level, and be willing to meet them there on a human level, and then you'll get loyalty and happy clients who are happy to pay their bill. Jeena Cho: [00:19:23] All right, so let's do the O: what does it stand for, and what does it mean to you? Billie Tarascio: [00:19:30] It's optimism, and it means that it can be very easy to get discouraged or to say it's never going to work, what you're asking we're never going to be able to get, and we're not going to practice law that way. Be creative, and being creative and optimistic means we will think about this for a while. If you have something that's really important to you that normally a judge doesn't care about, it does mean we can't get it, it means we need to be a little bit creative and figure out how can we make that happen for this client. Jeena Cho: [00:20:08] How do you maintain optimism in a practice area.. I think in law practice in general, there is a struggle for keeping up your optimism. What do you do on a daily basis to restore and recharge your optimism? Billie Tarascio: [00:20:28] Well, we try to hire people who tend to be naturally optimistic. It's a whole lot easier to be optimistic if that's just how you look at life. And the internal dynamics really, really affect the way each of us feels when we come to work. But also, we read things like and we take time to invest in one another and our clients. We celebrate all of our wins, so any good client feedback that we get goes out to everyone. I think that really helps encourage optimism and help people understand wins. So we celebrate every court win, every client win, all the good feedback, and just try to put positivity into our working measurement. Jeena Cho: [00:21:16] I love it. And the B? Billie Tarascio: [00:21:18] B is bravery, and it's sort of related to optimism. It means that we're not going to get discouraged; it's very easy...
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