The Allender Center Podcast
Hosts Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen along with occasional guests, candidly discuss the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed in our world. Join us to gain refreshing insight on the journey to hope and healing from trauma and abuse. For information on our programs and events, visit theallendercenter.org.
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Reframing Good Friday: From Scapegoating to Restoration with Mako Nagasawa
04/03/2026
Reframing Good Friday: From Scapegoating to Restoration with Mako Nagasawa
We all know what it feels like to scapegoat—or to be scapegoated. To shift blame, protect ourselves, and make someone else carry what feels too heavy to hold. So what does that have to do with Good Friday? In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Mako Nagasawa helps us see that what we call “scapegoating” today is actually a distortion of its original biblical meaning. Looking at Leviticus 16, he explains that the scapegoat was never about blaming or punishing a substitute, but about removing what didn’t belong. A way of naming that the problem isn’t who we are, but what has taken hold within us. But over time, we’ve changed that meaning, looking for others to carry the blame instead of facing what’s broken in us. This episode invites us to see the cross differently. Rather than reinforcing blame and punishment, Jesus steps into our cycle of scapegoating to break it, revealing a God who is not looking for someone to punish, but is committed to restoring what’s broken. This is the hope of Good Friday: not a story of blame, but the beginning of restoration. Special Offer for our Listeners: “Scapegoating as a Spiritual Formation Problem:” A free, four-week discussion group led by Mako Nagasawa with The Anástasis Center. Explore how Penal Substitutionary Atonement theology encourages people to accept arbitrary authority and deploy harsh retributive justice. Explore how Medical Substitutionary Atonement theology from Early and Eastern Christianity can heal our souls, relationships, and public witness. Enroll for free (with donations) at: About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at
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Rediscovering the Gospel with Rev. Rob Schenck
03/27/2026
Rediscovering the Gospel with Rev. Rob Schenck
For decades, Rev. Rob Schenck was a leading voice in the religious right, shaping policy and influencing power from the halls of Washington, D.C. But over time, he began to see that the gospel he was serving had become entangled with politics, ambition, and illusion. In this episode, Rob reflects on the experiences that cracked his assumptions: moments of human suffering he couldn’t ignore, the limits of religious influence, and the moral compromises he witnessed in powerful circles. He shares how these experiences—and encounters with people whose realities he had once dismissed—led him to reimagine faith as a call to truth, compassion, and reality rather than fantasy or control. This conversation isn’t really about politics. It’s about confronting hard truths, facing the realities of the world and ourselves, and rediscovering the gospel in a society where our imaginations, privileges, and systems often distort it. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at
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Neurodivergence, Trauma, and Story with Stephanie Isbell, MA, LCPC
03/20/2026
Neurodivergence, Trauma, and Story with Stephanie Isbell, MA, LCPC
Many listeners of the Allender Center Podcast have asked us to explore neurodivergence—especially what it means to parent neurodivergent children or to make sense of a diagnosis in adulthood. We’re pleased to welcome therapist Stephanie Isbell, a Narrative Focused Trauma Care®–trained clinician who works with neurodivergent adults and families. In conversation with Dan and Rachael, she leads us through the complex intersection of neurodivergence, trauma, identity, and story. Neurodivergence—which can include autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and more—points to the many ways human brains process the world differently. For many people, these differences have been misunderstood or pathologized, often leading to experiences of shame, isolation, and relational misunderstanding from early childhood. Stephanie brings both clinical insight and compassionate curiosity to the conversation, helping unpack how neurodivergent people often grow up navigating social miscues, sensory overwhelm, and the pressure to “mask” their natural ways of being in order to fit in. She highlights how considering these experiences as part of a larger story—perhaps our own and perhaps those of the people we love—offers helpful layers of understanding, allowing us to respond with greater compassion. Throughout the conversation, we are invited to cultivate deeper curiosity—about ourselves and about the people we love. For parents, partners, and communities, this means moving beyond forcing conformity and instead learning to ask better questions, listen more carefully, and honor the unique ways each person experiences the world. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: If you and your organization would like to partner with the Allender Center Podcast, please reach out to Clay Clayton at
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Narrative Focused Trauma Care® with Becky Allender
03/13/2026
Narrative Focused Trauma Care® with Becky Allender
Have you been living within a role for years—only to wonder if there is more of you still waiting to be known? For decades, Becky Allender stood faithfully behind the scenes, supporting Dan’s work, praying as an intercessor, helping build what would become the Allender Center. Yet she also carried the ache of being “in the room” without fully feeling she had a seat at the table. In today’s conversation, she names the cost of that tension, and the courage it took to step forward. When Becky chose to participate in Narrative Focused Trauma Care—the very framework her husband helped create—something began to shift. Through the steady presence of skilled facilitators and courageous companions, she encountered grief she hadn’t fully named and discovered a growing kindness toward parts of herself long defended or hidden. What followed was not only personal healing, but relational transformation. Through the language she gained and interactions she experienced, her relationship with Dan deepened. Repair with her daughters became possible. Her love for her parents softened and expanded. And from that engagement with her story emerged a clearer sense of calling—expressed in her teaching, leadership, and her memoir, Hidden in Plain Sight. Perhaps most compelling is this: Becky began this work after decades of marriage, motherhood, and ministry. It was not too late. And it is not too late for you. What might you be missing by staying in the role you’ve always carried? And what new life could unfold if you trusted that your story is still being written? *This episode mentions an incident of rape; listener discretion is advised. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
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“Growing Up Pure” with Lauren D. Sawyer, PhD
03/06/2026
“Growing Up Pure” with Lauren D. Sawyer, PhD
What if healing from purity culture requires more than naming how you were hurt? What if it also means asking how you participated? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen sit down with their colleague Dr. Lauren Sawyer, to explore her new book, Growing Up Pure. Lauren names something many haven’t had language for: as teens, we weren’t only victims of purity culture; we were also moral agents within it. We made choices. We found belonging. We sometimes resisted in small ways. And at times, we participated in systems that harmed others and ourselves. That tension between vulnerability and agency, harm and complicity can feel destabilizing. Yet Lauren invites us to see accountability not as punishment, but as a sacred, even hopeful, practice. What if repentance wasn’t shame-driven, but a pathway toward integration? What if healing meant not only tending to the wounds purity culture caused, but also examining how we were formed by—and sometimes upheld—it? This episode is honest, nuanced, and tender. It creates space to grieve the damage of purity culture while also imagining a different story. One rooted in the belief that we are made in the image of God as embodied, relational, sexual beings… and that restoration is possible. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
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“Eucontamination: Disgust Theology and the Christian Life” with Paul Hoard, PhD, and Billie Hoard
02/27/2026
“Eucontamination: Disgust Theology and the Christian Life” with Paul Hoard, PhD, and Billie Hoard
How often do we think about disgust? Yet it shapes our choices, relationships, and even our faith every day in ways we rarely notice. In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dr. Paul Hoard and Billie Hoard discuss their new book, “Eucontamination: Disgust Theology and the Christian Life,” exploring how this powerful, often overlooked force influences us. Drawing from theology and psychology, they examine how disgust—originally designed to protect us—can become a tool for exclusion when applied to people rather than pathogens. From purity culture to nationalism to everyday relational divides, they consider how “contamination logic” forms the world around us. But the heart of their work is hopeful: Jesus doesn’t abolish disgust—he inverts it. In Christ, holiness is not fragile. Love is stronger than sin. What looks contaminating does not defile him; instead, his presence transforms from within. This conversation invites us to reflect on where disgust may be shaping our reactions, relationships, and theology—and to imagine a discipleship formed by more courageous, more transformative love. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
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Black History Month & the Power of Story with Pastor James A. White
02/20/2026
Black History Month & the Power of Story with Pastor James A. White
Who gets to tell the story? This week, Pastor James A. White returns to the Allender Center Podcast to explore why that question sits at the heart of Black History Month. Marking 100 years since Carter G. Woodson launched Negro History Week in February 1926, this episode examines how history has long been shaped by those in power — and how it remains at risk of erasure when we refuse to name the truth. From the creation of racial categories to modern claims of “colorblindness,” division has been strategically constructed to preserve power, while silence continues to support a distorted narrative. But this conversation isn’t only about what has been. It’s about what is unfolding now. The same grasping for power, the same fear-based narratives, the same temptation to flatten difference are still at work today. Black history reveals both the cost of erasure and the brilliance of resilience. And it invites us to ask: What story are we participating in now? About Our Guest: James White is an architect of identity-driven leadership who designs environments where leaders and organizations align values, systems, and culture for lasting impact. As Senior Pastor of Christ Our King Community Church, he integrates strategy, story, and spiritual formation to develop leaders who strengthen both communities and institutions. James served for more than two decades as an Executive Vice President within large-scale, multi-million-dollar YMCA nonprofit systems—first in the Raleigh–Durham Triangle and later with the YMCA of the North in Minneapolis. In these executive roles, he designed leadership formation systems that developed emerging and senior-level leaders, aligned mission with operational execution, and strengthened organizational culture across complex community-based institutions. He has facilitated cross-sector leadership labs for executive teams in both for-profit and nonprofit sectors, creating learning environments focused on identity clarity, values alignment, governance structure, and systems coherence. Over the course of 40 years, James has engaged audiences across academia, think tanks, business, nonprofit organizations, state and local government, and professional sports organizations throughout the United States and Canada. At the core of his work is a simple conviction: identity shapes leadership, and both individuals and institutions have the opportunity to design a better story. Related Resources: with Pastor James A. White and Linda Royster on the Allender Center Podcast. from the Allender Center. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
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Men, Vulnerability, and the Path to Connection with Jamie Haigh and Blake Roberts
02/13/2026
Men, Vulnerability, and the Path to Connection with Jamie Haigh and Blake Roberts
What if the freedom you long for is hidden in that final 3% of the truth you’re afraid to share? This week, Dan and Rachael are joined by therapists Blake Roberts and Jamie Haigh of the Three Percent Podcast for a thoughtful conversation about holistic masculinity, loneliness, and the risk of real vulnerability. Blake and Jamie share the meaning behind the “three percent”, which references the small but powerful parts of our story we hide in shame, and how naming them opens the door to deeper connection and freedom. Together, they explore why so many men feel alone, the difference between conquering and connecting, and how redemptive risk invites us into a fuller, more honest life. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
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“Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World” with Laurie Krieg
02/06/2026
“Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World” with Laurie Krieg
Talking with kids about sex, pornography, and sexuality can stir up fear, shame, and a deep sense of inadequacy for many parents. In this episode, Dan and Rachael sit down with author and parent-educator Laurie Krieg to think through a steadier, wiser way forward—one rooted in the gospel, attunement, and ongoing relationship rather than one-time “big talks.” Drawing from her new book “Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World,” Laurie shares her own journey as she offers parents help to move from reactivity to intentionality. She names why these conversations feel so overwhelming—often because of our own unresolved stories—and invites parents to do their own work so they can show up with courage and calm. Rather than avoiding hard topics or responding with fear and control, Laurie offers concrete, age-appropriate ways to engage kids through many small conversations over time, helping parents become the trusted “anchor” their children return to when confusion, curiosity, or exposure inevitably arises. This conversation is especially helpful for parents navigating early exposure to pornography, online content, and rapidly changing technology. Laurie shares practical language parents can use, how to reduce shame when kids encounter inappropriate material, and how to frame boundaries not around fear, but around God’s beautiful design for bodies, intimacy, and care. Throughout, the emphasis is clear: it’s never too late to begin, repair matters more than perfection, and wisdom is something parents can grow into—step by step—as they walk alongside their children in a complex world. ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. You can find transcripts, show notes, and more for each episode at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:
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“Liturgies for Resisting Empire” with Kat Armas
01/31/2026
“Liturgies for Resisting Empire” with Kat Armas
In a country that is hurting and fractured by deep division, many of us are wondering how to remain rooted in love. As followers of Jesus, the question before us is not simply what do we think, but how do we stay human, attentive, and faithful in such a time as this? In this thoughtful and spacious conversation, Rachael Clinton Chen welcomes theologian and author Kat Armas into a much-needed dialogue about power, imagination, and what it means to remain grounded and joined together in the way of Jesus. Drawing from her newest book, “Liturgies for Resisting Empire: Seeking Community, Belonging, and Peace in a Dehumanizing World,” Kat invites listeners beyond political binaries and party lines into a deeper reckoning with how power has shaped our stories. Here, empire names more than a political system. It refers to any way of organizing life—political, theological, cultural, or personal—that relies on power and fear to preserve itself, rather than love, humility, and mutual care. Often, its influence goes unnamed, shaping our imaginations, our bodies, our relationships, and even our spirituality. Against this backdrop, Kat offers liturgies as embodied practices that can steady us, give us language when words feel thin, and help us resist dehumanization together. This episode is not about debating political parties or policies. Instead, it invites us to slow down, to notice what’s been “in the water” all along, and to return our attention to Jesus. We hope this conversation offers something more sustaining than easy answers—a holy resistance shaped by presence, community, and love. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: theallendercenter.org/podcast To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit: https://theallendercenter.org/2025/11/podcast-support/
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Reclaiming Faith, Hope, and Love after Spiritual Abuse
01/23/2026
Reclaiming Faith, Hope, and Love after Spiritual Abuse
Faith, hope, and love are beautiful words—but for many of us, they don’t feel simple or safe. When they’ve been wielded to control, silence, or shame, these core concepts can carry weight, confusion, and even fear. In the wake of spiritual abuse, what once promised life can feel distorted or out of reach. Today, Dan and Rachael step tenderly and courageously into what it means to reclaim faith, hope, and love after harm. Rather than treating faith as certainty, hope as optimism, or love as obedience, they reframe these virtues as deeply human, relational realities: faith as trust, hope as imagination for a future shaped by goodness, and love as a force grounded in honor, freedom, and delight. Together, they name how spiritual abuse exploits fear and shame to protect power—fracturing our ability to trust ourselves, others, and even God. Healing doesn’t begin with forcing a set of dogmatic beliefs, but with safety: learning to listen to our bodies, recover discernment, and engage relationships where difference and nuance are welcomed. This conversation is for anyone longing to rediscover a faith that makes room for personhood, courage, and love that does not demand fear in return. ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:
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Why Is It So Hard to Tell the Truth? with Dr. Monique Gadson
01/16/2026
Why Is It So Hard to Tell the Truth? with Dr. Monique Gadson
Most of us say we value the truth—until it unsettles us, costs us something, or asks us to change. Truth has a way of disrupting the stories we use to survive. That’s exactly what we’re talking about on the podcast today. Dr. Monique Gadson joins Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to explore why truth-telling feels so threatening—personally, relationally, and culturally. Drawing from systems theory, theology, and her lived experience, Dr. Gadson names anxiety as the central force that keeps us from truth. When we lack the capacity to tolerate the discomfort truth brings, we turn to projection, delusion, scapegoating, and certainty as coping mechanisms. What begins as an inability to regulate anxiety within families and relationships spills outward into institutions, churches, and society itself, resulting in polarization, blame, and a deep resistance to accountability. The conversation presses especially hard on the role of Christians in this moment. Rather than leading the way in humility, repentance, and truth-bearing love, the church is often entangled in systems that suppress truth to protect power, purity narratives, or a false sense of goodness. Dr. Gadson speaks candidly about the cost of being a truth teller, particularly as a Black woman, and the reality of being scapegoated for disrupting dominant stories. Yet she also offers a grounded hope: freedom comes through differentiation, integrity, and the slow, courageous work of managing anxiety rather than projecting it onto others. Truth, she reminds us, is not about annihilating one another, but about creating the conditions where real relationship, responsibility, and repair are possible. Ultimately, this episode invites us to ask not only what is true, but what does truth stir in us—and can we bear it? As Dan reflects, the truth both attracts and repels us—and our prayer may simply be, “I believe; help my unbelief.” This is a conversation for anyone longing to live with greater integrity, emotional maturity, and faithfulness in a world that increasingly struggles to tell—and receive—the truth. About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:
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“On Holy Ground” with Dr. Keith Anderson
01/09/2026
“On Holy Ground” with Dr. Keith Anderson
“What if the sacred is not somewhere else? What if it’s right here and right now?” In this rich and reflective episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dan and Rachael welcome theologian, author, and beloved mentor Dr. Keith Anderson. Drawing from his book, “On Holy Ground: Your Story of Identity, Belonging, and Sacred Purpose,” Keith invites us to reconsider vocation not as a role, title, or single decision made when you’re young, but as a lifelong relationship with Jesus. It’s one shaped by seasons, suffering, questions, and ordinary faithfulness. Together, they explore how calling is formed not in abstraction, but in the particularity of our stories: our bodies, our sufferings, our relationships, and our hope. If you are asking questions about purpose, identity, belonging, or how to remain open-hearted amid suffering and uncertainty, this episode is a gift. It’s a reminder that vocation is not about getting it right once, but about learning, again and again, how to live your life with God. *This episode contains discussions of addiction and includes a quoted derogatory term. Listener discretion is advised. ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:
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Living in a Distracted World and Following Jesus Into a New Year
01/02/2026
Living in a Distracted World and Following Jesus Into a New Year
The new year can bring the hope of a fresh start… or the dread of more of the same. In this first episode of the year, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen name what many of us are already feeling: life feels heavy, noisy, and hard to keep up with. They talk about the “stone in the shoe” of modern life—how distraction, overwhelm, and unresolved trauma slowly wear us down—and share practical ways to respond. That might look like stepping back from constant media, creating gentle daily rhythms of prayer, worship, and Scripture, or using journaling and writing to slow your thoughts and reconnect with what matters most. At the heart of the conversation is a simple but challenging invitation: to stay awake to suffering without losing hope, and to let love, humility, and courage shape how we live. Reflecting on Romans 12, we’re invited to resist chaos and despair and instead lean into the kind of formation that only comes from following Jesus. This episode is about 40 minutes long. After listening, consider taking a few extra minutes (maybe even more than a few) to reflect on how you want to enter the new year: more grounded, more aware, and more spiritually centered. As Dan says in closing, “It would be great if it's a happy new Year… but may it be one in which our lives are more formed in Jesus.” ===== About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:
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Reflections on the Year 2025 with Dr. Dan and Becky Allender
12/26/2025
Reflections on the Year 2025 with Dr. Dan and Becky Allender
As the year comes to a close, Dan and Becky Allender continue their annual podcast tradition: pausing to reflect on the year that has passed. They share a bit about their own experiences—what they’ve learned, what they’re grieving, and what they’re celebrating—as they prepare to enter a new season. Together, they invite you to also pause and reflect: What moments from your year need remembering? What relationships could use repair or deeper care? What desires and hopes might God be stirring in your heart for the year ahead? We are deeply grateful for your presence and support of the Allender Center Podcast in 2025. As we step into 2026, we look forward to continuing this journey together! About the Allender Center Podcast: For over a decade, the Allender Center Podcast has offered honest, thoughtful conversations about the deep work of healing and transformation. Hosted by Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen, MDiv, this weekly podcast explores the complexities of trauma, abuse recovery, story, relationships, and spiritual formation. Through questions submitted by listeners, stories, interviews, and conversations, we engage the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed so candidly in our culture today. Join the Allender Center Podcast to uncover meaningful perspectives and support for your path to healing and growth. At the Allender Center, we value thoughtful dialogue across a wide range of voices, stories, and lived experiences. In that spirit, our podcast features guests and hosts who may hold differing perspectives. The perspectives shared on this podcast by guests and hosts reflect their own experiences and viewpoints and do not necessarily represent the views, positions, or endorsements of the Allender Center and/or The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology. Stream each episode, plus find transcripts, additional resources, and more at: To become a supporter of the Allender Center Podcast, visit:
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God in Relationship: Advent and the Trinity with Rev. Dr. Michael Chen
12/12/2025
God in Relationship: Advent and the Trinity with Rev. Dr. Michael Chen
This Advent season, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen are joined by Rev. Dr. Michael Chen for a rich and deeply human conversation about the Trinity and what it reveals to us about God, ourselves, and our relationships with others. Together, they explore how the mystery of one God in three persons shapes our understanding of love, relationality, and beauty—particularly in the context of Advent, when we reflect on God’s incarnation and presence in the world. This episode is an invitation to pause, wonder, and engage your heart with the presence of God in this season of anticipation. The podcast will take a short break next week for the holiday, but we’ll be back on December 26 with an end-of-year reflection from Dan and Becky Allender.
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The Story of God With Us: Advent and the Early Church with Blaine Eldredge
12/05/2025
The Story of God With Us: Advent and the Early Church with Blaine Eldredge
As we begin the Advent season, Dan and Rachael welcome writer and theologian Blaine Eldredge back to the podcast for a sweeping, story-rich journey into history, theology, and the fierce hope of the incarnation. If you love church history or the nuance of theological debate, this episode is a feast. And if you don’t consider yourself a scholar, you’re still fully invited in, because the questions raised here reach all of us who long for God-with-us in turbulent times. They approach Advent by way of one of the most compelling figures of the early church: Athanasius, the fourth-century bishop whose devotion to the incarnation shaped Christian belief for generations. This episode invites you to consider what it means that God took on flesh amid conflict, upheaval, and hope that refuses to be extinguished. It’s a rich, timely conversation for this season of waiting and wonder.
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Loneliness, Isolation, and Presence
11/28/2025
Loneliness, Isolation, and Presence
Loneliness is a human experience, but it’s one we don’t always acknowledge honestly. In this deeply personal conversation, Dan and Rachael open up about the moments when loneliness and suffering make us unsure of what we need, what we want, or how to ask for help. They also zoom out: why loneliness is rising, how our culture quietly reinforces isolation, and why recognizing our ache for connection is a sign of our humanity, not our failure. You probably won’t find quick fixes or step-by-step solutions in this conversation. Rather, consider this episode an invitation to reflect on your own ambivalence, your desire for connection, and the quiet, messy courage it takes to reach out—both when you feel lonely and when you sense someone else might be, too. Helps us continue creating thoughtful, trauma-informed, spiritually grounded content.
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How to Not Be Consumed at Thanksgiving
11/21/2025
How to Not Be Consumed at Thanksgiving
Thanksgiving is right around the corner. It can be a day of tradition, family, and connection. It can also bring tension, exhaustion, grief, or even trigger old wounds. Today, Dan and Rachael reflect on the complex reality of the holiday: the joy, the nostalgia, the chaos, and the moments that can leave us feeling overwhelmed or even “devoured” by family dynamics. Drawing on their own stories and looking ahead to this year’s holiday, they explore how to hold gratitude alongside grief, and how to create meaningful connection without losing yourself. Whether you’re hosting, traveling, or creating a quiet space for yourself, this conversation offers gentle guidance and practical tools. You’ll learn how to approach Thanksgiving with intention, better honor your boundaries, and participate with a heart that’s more open to the day, however it unfolds.
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Marriage in the Midst of Difficult Seasons
11/14/2025
Marriage in the Midst of Difficult Seasons
Marriage always carries both joy and challenge… but what happens when life pushes you to the edge? When trauma, illness, loss, stress, or sheer exhaustion stretch your relationship beyond its limits? In this tender and often humorous conversation, Rachael Clinton Chen interviews Dan and Becky Allender to explore what it means to love and be loved through seasons of extremity—those times when the demands of life exceed our capacity to meet them. From everyday frustrations to the deep pain of seasons of loss, physical suffering, and ministry fatigue, Dan and Becky reflect honestly on how marriage can expose both our best and our most broken parts. If you’re wondering how to stay connected when life feels impossible—or how to find beauty and intimacy on the other side of pain—this episode is a gentle invitation to hope. This episode engages the topic of some difficult topics, including pregnancy loss. Listener discretion is advised.
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Trauma & Emotional Dysregulation
11/07/2025
Trauma & Emotional Dysregulation
Ever have a day where everything goes sideways and your body just won’t calm down? In this episode, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen explore emotional dysregulation: why our nervous systems spiral under stress, especially with a history of trauma, and how we can respond with mercy rather than shame. Through humor, real-life stories, and insights from both neuroscience and Scripture, they show that dysregulation isn’t weakness; it’s a signal from your body asking for care and compassion. Their conversation also offers practical ways to tend to your body, mind, and soul. Listener Resources: Read: Aundi Kolber’s Read: Resmaa Manakem’s Listen to: on the Allender Center Podcast Download the free worksheet: from the at The Seattle School
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Psalm 13, Erin Brockovich, and the Debris of Sexual Abuse
10/31/2025
Psalm 13, Erin Brockovich, and the Debris of Sexual Abuse
If you’ve ever wrestled with the long, uneven work of healing, we hope today’s conversation offers courage for the journey. Dan shares his recent reflections on the lament of waiting found in Psalm 13 and the persistent pursuit of justice embodied by Erin Brockovich as he rewatched the 2000 film. He and Rachael explore the tension between justice today and the full restoration that is “not yet,” bringing these insights into the lingering impact of past sexual abuse. Healing after sexual abuse shapes not just your body but your whole affective and relational world. When harm happens in relationships, it distorts your sense of safety, trust, and even goodness. You may notice contempt toward your own body, frustration at emotional reactions, or fear around your own desires. Hypervigilance, self-protection, or numbing can become familiar companions, and trusting others—or even yourself—can feel risky. The work of healing in adult life is laborious, requiring vulnerability, patience, and courage to reclaim desire, goodness, and the capacity to be seen. They consider Psalm 13 as both a cry of lament and a thread of hope. It doesn’t promise immediate relief. It simply says, “I trust in your unfailing love,” leaving open the possibility that this is not the end of the story. Healing is not a linear path or a once-and-done process. It’s a lifelong journey of tending to what remains—the physiological, emotional, relational, and spiritual aftermath of trauma. And yet, even in the hard work, there is invitation: keep choosing life, goodness, and the beauty of your own desire. Every small act of caring for your body, each moment of speaking truth, each return to beauty becomes a protest against despair—a glimpse of the wholeness that is coming. Healing itself is a form of justice. * This episode engages the topic of abuse, particularly sexual abuse and child abuse. Listener discretion is advised.
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“Holy Hurt” with Hillary L. McBride, PhD
10/24/2025
“Holy Hurt” with Hillary L. McBride, PhD
Healing from spiritual abuse and religious trauma is not a simple, linear journey. In this week’s episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Rachael Clinton Chen sits down with Dr. Hillary McBride—psychologist, researcher, and author of “Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing”—to explore the invisible wounds that trauma leaves on our minds, bodies, and spirits. They talk about: How trauma can be reinforced by the very systems meant to guide and protect us. The profound importance of witnessing, connection, and radical welcoming in your recovery journey. Recovering parts of ourselves that were buried under burdens we were never meant to carry. What it means to grieve, to repair, and to show up for ourselves and our communities. This conversation is an invitation to sit tenderly with your own story, to bear witness to your pain, and to glimpse the possibility of love, mercy, and goodness in the midst of it. You can order your copy of “Holy Hurt” by Hillary L. McBride, PhD, here:
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“Sacred Attachment” with Michael John Cusick
10/17/2025
“Sacred Attachment” with Michael John Cusick
In this week’s wise and profoundly human conversation, Dr. Dan Allender sits down with longtime friend and former student Michael John Cusick, founder of Restoring the Soul and author of the new book Sacred Attachment: Escaping Spiritual Exhaustion and Trusting in Divine Love. Together, they explore the link between spiritual exhaustion and divine love, and how attachment, or the way we learn to connect and be connected, shapes our experience of God, ourselves, and one another. Michael shares pieces of his remarkable story: from surviving profound childhood trauma and addiction to discovering the slow, sacred work of healing that unfolds over a lifetime. He reflects on the moments that first revealed divine love to him and later, the painful exposure that became the turning point of his adult life. Dan and Michael talk about what it means to practice attachment—to be seen, soothed, safe, and secure—and how even our deepest wounds can become doorways into God’s relentless, restorative love. This episode engages the topic of abuse, particularly sexual abuse and child abuse. Listener discretion is advised.
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“Surrendered Sexuality” with Dr. Juli Slattery
10/10/2025
“Surrendered Sexuality” with Dr. Juli Slattery
When you hear the words “surrendered sexuality,” what comes to mind—loss, shame, control? In this conversation, you’ll hear a different vision. In this week’s episode, Dr. Dan Allender is joined by clinical psychologist and author Dr. Juli Slattery. Together, they open up a vulnerable and hope-filled dialogue about sexuality—one that goes far beyond rules or “right answers.” Drawing from her new book Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, Juli shares how her own journey, through disruption, prayer, and deepening intimacy with God, led her to recognize the unspoken pain so many of us carry around sexuality. Rather than focusing on behaviors, Dan and Juli invite you to see sexuality as a core part of being human: your body, your emotions, your longing for connection, and ultimately, your intimacy with God. They also reframe what it means to surrender. Instead of shame or control, surrender becomes a gentle, ongoing invitation into the goodness of God—an opening to more pleasure in life, meaningful healing, and deeper trust in Jesus. This isn’t an episode with tidy conclusions or quick fixes. It’s an invitation to step into the mystery of sexuality as part of your discipleship journey, and to discover that in surrender, you don’t lose yourself. You find life: a life that is more whole, more connected, and more deeply rooted in the goodness of God.
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Church & Mental Health with Laura Howe
10/03/2025
Church & Mental Health with Laura Howe
What does it look like for the Church to become a true place of hope, healing, and care when it comes to mental health? In this week’s conversation, Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen are joined by Laura Howe, a clinical social worker and founder of and the , a free online event coming up on October 10, 2025. Laura shares her journey into bridging faith and mental health—born out of frustration and a longing to see the Church rise to its calling as a safe, caring community. Together, they explore the unique role the Church can play in mental health support: not as a replacement for clinical care, but as a vital presence of peer support, belonging, and discipleship that helps people feel seen and held. This episode touches on: How churches can move beyond programs to cultivate a culture of care The power of peer support as the “missing piece” in mental health conversations The theological and cultural obstacles that keep communities from engaging suffering honestly The very real challenges of compassion fatigue and burnout for leaders—and practices for resilience Whether you’re a pastor, ministry leader, caregiver, or someone longing to see your church embody greater compassion, this conversation offers both hope and practical wisdom for building communities where people can truly experience the canopy of care we all need.
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Living Theology
09/26/2025
Living Theology
For many, theology brings to mind dusty bookshelves, abstract arguments, and rigid dogmas. But what if theology wasn’t static? What if it could move, breathe, and shape the way we live, love, and lead in the world? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen are joined by Dr. Lauren D. Sawyer to talk about living theology—a way of engaging God and Scripture that doesn’t stay confined to the context of books, a classroom, or even church, but instead has “feet” that walk into our everyday lives. Lauren shares about The Seattle School’s new Certificate in Living Theology, a one-year online program designed to bring theology into conversation with psychology, culture, story, and community. Together, they explore why theology is never neutral, how our contexts shape what we believe, and why listening and dialogue are as essential as doctrine. You’ll hear how living theology is less about arriving at final answers and more about cultivating a faith that is reflective, embodied, and responsive to the complexities of our time. If you’ve ever longed for a way of doing theology that feels deeply connected to life, justice, and relational depth, this conversation is an invitation to consider what it means for theology to truly come alive. Learn more about the Certificate in Living Theology:
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Recovery Week Reflections
09/19/2025
Recovery Week Reflections
This episode engages the topic of abuse, particularly sexual abuse. Listener discretion is advised. Dr. Dan Allender and Linda Royster, LCMHC—two of the leaders of our Recovery Week experiences—come together to reflect on the heart and history of this sacred work. Dan shares about the origins of Recovery Week in 1988, a gathering that began with a bold hope: that healing is possible for those carrying the wounds of childhood sexual abuse. Linda offers her own story of first encountering The Wounded Heart and the ways it opened her to the possibility of transformation. Together, they invite us into a deeper understanding of what it means to hold both the personal and the collective—acknowledging that no one suffers in isolation, but always within systems and contexts that shape our stories. Linda speaks to the profound intersections of racial trauma and sexual abuse, and the complex layers of shame that can silence and fragment survivors. Recovery Weeks create a space to move toward those particularities of the harm you’ve experienced—where you may want to freeze, minimize, or look away—and to take the courageous step of naming what is true. The goal is not to erase or resolve shame, but to walk through it, opening the way for transformation. This conversation is an honoring of the decades of work poured into Recovery Weeks, and a heartfelt invitation: to those who come, your presence is already a profound act of courage. Our hope is that you might encounter a deeper healing that makes way for new life.
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The Cost and Gift of Creativity in Relationships with John and Sue Cunningham
09/12/2025
The Cost and Gift of Creativity in Relationships with John and Sue Cunningham
We are made in the image of a wildly creative God—and that means creativity lives in each of us. Yet, while it flows freely in childhood, many of us lose touch with it as adults, buried under busyness and productivity. What would it look like to recover creativity—not just for ourselves, but within our closest relationships? This week, Dan and Becky Allender sit down with longtime friends John and Sue Cunningham, who are both creative in their own right. John is a potter, Sue is a poet, and together they’ve discovered both the beauty and the challenges of nurturing creativity in their marriage. Their conversation explores: The vulnerable (and sometimes costly) work of encouraging creativity in one another How creativity can be both communal and connecting, and also deeply individual and isolating The patience, generosity, and curiosity that can support your partner’s creative passions Practical ways to offer meaningful feedback and engagement without shutting each other down Whether you write, paint, play music, garden, or simply long to bring more beauty into your life, this episode will encourage you to see creativity not only as a personal practice—but as a vital part of your relationship.
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Bickering, Kindness, and the Deep Roots of Love
09/05/2025
Bickering, Kindness, and the Deep Roots of Love
Marriage isn’t only shaped by the big events and ruptures—it’s also shaped by the little things. The small arguments that seem to surface again and again, the shifts in family roles as children grow up and move out, and even the physical changes that come with aging can quietly wear away at a relationship if left unspoken. In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dr. Dan and Becky Allender are joined by Dr. Steve and Lisa Call to revisit the topic of marriage following the release earlier this year of their book, The Deep-Rooted Marriage. Together, they name the everyday tensions—like bickering over household tasks or navigating the emotional weight of an empty nest—that can strain a relationship. More importantly, they share how couples can stay “buoyed together” through kindness, curiosity, and honest conversation. From asking simple questions like “What’s going on for you?” to practicing story work that helps us understand the deeper histories beneath our conflicts, this conversation offers hope and guidance for cultivating resilience and intimacy in marriage. Whether you’re facing small resentments, major life transitions, or simply longing for more connection, this episode invites you to consider how kindness, curiosity, and story work can deepen your relationship. Please Note: This episode contains some mature language; listener discretion is advised.
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