The Allender Center Podcast
Hosts Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen along with occasional guests, candidly discuss the deep places of heartache and hope that are rarely addressed in our world. Join us to gain refreshing insight on the journey to hope and healing from trauma and abuse. For information on our programs and events, visit theallendercenter.org.
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A Sabbath Summer, Part 1: Anticipating Rest
07/11/2025
A Sabbath Summer, Part 1: Anticipating Rest
What if Sabbath isn’t just a day on your calendar—but a mindset you carry with you into every part of your life? In the first bite-sized episode of our 3-part summer series, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen invite us to anticipate rest and play, not just plan for it. They explore how Sabbath can be more than a scheduled pause—it can be a rhythm woven into your days, your relationships, even a quiet afternoon on the porch. Can you give yourself permission to imagine delight this summer—without immediately turning it into a to-do list? And how do we hold space for the parts of us that know disappointment, that fear the desire might not be fulfilled? This episode is an invitation to lean into your summer not with pragmatism, but with anticipation—allowing hope, imagination, and Sabbath delight to shape what’s possible. Whether you're planning a vacation, navigating a full house, or just trying to find 30 minutes of quiet—we hope this 3-part series will encourage you to pause, reflect, and imagine a new way of being present.
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The Dynamics of DARVO
07/03/2025
The Dynamics of DARVO
DARVO—”Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender”—is a powerful manipulation tactic often used to silence those who speak up about harm. In this episode, Dan and Rachael unpack how DARVO shows up not only in personal relationships but also in churches, politics, and other systems where power is protected at all costs. Together, they explore the deep psychological and spiritual impact of DARVO, particularly in narcissistic relationships or systems. Drawing from Dr. Jennifer Freyd’s work on betrayal trauma, they name the disorientation, grief, and exile that often follow when someone dares to speak what is true. What happens when cruelty masquerades as righteousness? When loyalty is measured by silence? This conversation holds space for those heartbreaks—and offers fierce, grounded hope. In a culture that often gaslights those who cry out for justice, Dan and Rachael remind us: love, truth, and healing are not just possible—they are sacred acts of resistance. And it’s not something we confront alone. With the presence of wise, compassionate others—therapists, pastors, friends, and communities of care—we can learn to trust what is true, reclaim our voice, and boldly participate in the redemptive work of love.
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How to Bring Story Work to Your Faith Community with Petra Malekzadeh
06/27/2025
How to Bring Story Work to Your Faith Community with Petra Malekzadeh
What does it take to cultivate real transformation in a faith community? Not just busier programs or better Bible studies, but real change – mind, body, and soul? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen talk with Petra Malekzadeh, Facilitation Development Manager at the Allender Center, about what it looks like to bring story work into the life of a local church. Drawing on her years of ministry leadership and her training in Narrative Focused Trauma Care®, Petra shares both the challenges and beauty of inviting people to engage their stories as part of discipleship. Listen in to explore: Why story work belongs at the heart of spiritual formation The importance of leadership buy-in and shared language How to navigate resistance and build trust What becomes possible when vulnerability is honored This conversation invites you to imagine a church where story work isn’t a side ministry—it’s how we grow into the people God is calling us to be.
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“Heaven Help Us” with John Kasich
06/20/2025
“Heaven Help Us” with John Kasich
If you like a good story, we think you’ll like this episode. This week, we’re honored to welcome John Kasich—a national leader, lifelong public servant, and gifted storyteller. Throughout his career, he’s met thousands of people, and he’s here to share just a few of the stories that have stayed with him. As the 69th Governor of Ohio (2011–2019), Gov. Kasich led with a focus on unity and problem-solving. He rose to national prominence during his 2016 presidential run and continues to serve today through his work with the Kasich Company, his role as a political analyst for NBC and MSNBC, and as the author of several New York Times bestsellers. His latest book, Heaven Help Us: How Faith Communities Inspire Hope, Strengthen Neighborhoods, and Build the Future, is the heart of this week’s conversation. John shares some of his personal journey—including how the sudden loss of his parents in a car accident became a life-altering moment. He also invites us into the deeply moving stories from his new book—stories of ordinary people in churches, synagogues, and mosques doing extraordinary work to serve their neighbors. These aren’t just heartwarming accounts; they’re powerful reminders of how faith can drive tangible, lasting change. This conversation moves quickly—so we encourage you to grab a copy of Heaven Help Us and spend time with these stories yourself. Join us for a conversation full of hope, challenge, and inspiration—about what’s possible when we come together, rooted in faith, to love our neighbors and build a better world.
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“Experience Jesus. Really.” with John Eldredge
06/13/2025
“Experience Jesus. Really.” with John Eldredge
We’re living in a time that’s quietly—but profoundly—reshaping our souls. Formed by a world of speed, efficiency, and endless information, most of us have been trained to seek quick answers, avoid ambiguity, and live with the belief that if we just do X, then Y will happen. It's not our fault—we’ve been discipled by our cultural moment, where data is king and mystery is often treated with suspicion. In the process, many of us have come to approach faith with an overdeveloped left brain—craving clarity and control, while growing uncomfortable with the unknown, the mystical, the experiential. And yet… something deeper in us still longs for more. In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender is joined by psychologist and New York Times Bestselling Author John Eldredge to explore the themes of John’s new book, “Experience Jesus. Really.” Together, they offer a timely, tender invitation: to recover a life with God that is not only true, but felt—a life rooted in presence, wonder, and communion. This conversation explores: Why our modern world makes it hard to access the presence of God The invitation to become an “ordinary mystic”—someone who experiences God from the inside out What it means to live as an “amphibious” being, rooted in both the physical and spiritual How the presence of Jesus brings refuge, healing, and integration—especially in trauma Why this isn’t just for the spiritual elite—but for all of us, here and now John draws from the wisdom of Christian mystics, scripture, and his own story to illuminate what it means to truly walk with Jesus today—in your body, your story, and your real life. If you’ve ever found yourself saying, “I want to experience more of God, but I don’t know how”—we invite you to listen to this episode. Listener Resources: Be sure to check out John Eldredge’s latest book, “Experience Jesus. Really.” here: Revisit the webinar, “The Power of Jesus in Therapeutic Practice” with Dan Allender and John Eldredge, to discover how to authentically integrate best practices with the healing power and loving care of God in your therapy practice:
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“Saving Face” with Aimee Byrd
06/06/2025
“Saving Face” with Aimee Byrd
Have you ever felt unseen in a place where you were supposed to be known? Or like the more you tried to bring your true self forward, the more you were asked to hide it? Today on the podcast, author Aimee Byrd joins Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to talk about her new book, Saving Face: Finding My Self, God, and One Another Outside a Defaced Church. It’s a deeply personal and theological reflection on spiritual abuse, identity, and healing—especially in the wake of church systems that no longer reflect the face of Christ. Together, they explore what it means to reclaim your face—your personhood, your story, your sacred calling. Aimee draws on the rich insight of philosopher Emmanuel Levinas, who wrote that the face is not merely a physical feature, but the place where we encounter both God and one another. To truly see another’s face is to take responsibility for their dignity and to recognize Christ’s presence there. Aimee shares her story of how a system that promised reform instead left her mocked, erased, and dehumanized. In that disillusionment, she came to a painful but powerful realization: we don’t just need reform. We need resurrection. A death to false forms of power, toxic moralism, and spiritual posturing—and a return to humility, presence, and love. This conversation offers an honest look at the loneliness of holding onto your God-given identity when others turn away, the courage it takes to seek the face of God in others, and the deep hope that emerges when we begin to see—and be seen—face to face. Listen to this week’s episode about “Saving Face” with Aimee Byrd, and be sure to pick up a copy of her book at:
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Trauma, Addiction, and the Twelve Steps – Part 2 with Ian Morgan Cron
05/30/2025
Trauma, Addiction, and the Twelve Steps – Part 2 with Ian Morgan Cron
What if your first addiction wasn’t to a substance, but to someone’s approval? In part two of our conversation with Ian Morgan Cron, we go deeper into the cycle of addiction, codependency, and the hope of recovery. Whether you're struggling with a relationship, a habit, a performance-driven mindset, or just the weight of trying to “be good,” this episode offers a profound invitation: transformation doesn't come from trying harder—it comes from surrender. You'll hear stories about the power of the 12 Steps, why spiritual awakening matters more than willpower, and how our early longings for love and safety often become tangled in the behaviors we’re desperate to change. We talk about ministry, leadership, trauma, boundaries, and what it really means to carry your healing into the lives of others. This isn’t a conversation about fixing people—it’s about engaging your own story so you can show up with greater freedom, compassion, and clarity. Take a breath, take a listen. We hope you’ll hear something that helps you come home to yourself. You can order Ian’s new book here: Please Note: This episode contains some mature language; listener discretion is advised.
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Trauma, Addiction, and the Twelve Steps – Part 1 with Ian Morgan Cron
05/23/2025
Trauma, Addiction, and the Twelve Steps – Part 1 with Ian Morgan Cron
Underneath every addiction is a deeper ache—and a surprising path to healing. Bestselling author, therapist, and Episcopal priest Ian Morgan Cron joins Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to share insights from his newest book, Ian invites us to reconsider the Twelve Steps—not just as a recovery tool for addicts, but as a grace-filled path of spiritual awakening for anyone longing for freedom, connection, and intimacy with God. This conversation is for everyone—not just those who identify as alcoholics or addicts. As Ian says, these steps offer healing to people who struggle with all kinds of attachments and compulsions: workaholism, people-pleasing, tech and porn addiction, codependency, control, food, spending, approval, sports betting… the list goes on. Ian points out that most of us are poly-addicted, caught in multiple patterns that disconnect us from God, ourselves, and each other. So this isn’t about comparing struggles or measuring severity. It’s about asking: Do I want to be free? Do I want to live with more honesty, grace, and surrender? Whether or not you think you “need” the Steps, this conversation is a compassionate, humorous, and deeply spiritual invitation to let go of self-reliance and move toward the healing you were made for. Listen to Part 1 now, and be sure to come back next week for Part 2. In the meantime, you can order Ian’s new book here: Please Note: This episode contains some mature language; listener discretion is advised.
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“How to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in Christian Communities” with Dr. Andrew J. Bauman
05/16/2025
“How to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in Christian Communities” with Dr. Andrew J. Bauman
What happens when a woman names harm in her church community—and instead of support, she’s met with silence, suspicion, or even exile? Too often, the church’s response to abuse and inequity reveals a painful truth: that protecting systems has taken precedence over protecting people. In this powerful and layered conversation, Dr. Andrew J. Bauman joins Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to confront the realities explored in Andrew’s new book Safe Church: How to Guard Against Sexism and Abuse in Christian Communities. Together, they discuss: The cost many women pay for speaking up: isolation, lost community, and spiritual disillusionment How even “progressive” churches can harbor subtle patterns of power and control The stark data that exposes ongoing gender inequity in ministry The personal stories that bring this reality to life—and why representation matters What a truly safe and equitable church could look like This is not just a conversation about what’s broken—it’s a call to build something better. A church where truth is welcomed, not silenced. Where policies protect the vulnerable. Where power is shared, not hoarded. And where the sacred image of God in women is honored, nurtured, and empowered. Whether you’re a survivor, a leader, or someone wrestling with disillusionment, this episode offers a brave and hopeful vision of what the church can become—if we have the courage to tell the truth and move toward change. Related Resources: Order your copy of Dr. Andrew J. Bauman’s . Listen to the Allender Center Podcast episode: Continue to learn with these self-paced online courses from the Allender Center: and the
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The Research Behind Narrative Focused Trauma Care®
05/09/2025
The Research Behind Narrative Focused Trauma Care®
If you’ve experienced the healing power of engaging your story—through a Story Workshop, Recovery Week, Narrative Focused Trauma Care® (NFTC) training, or a Story Group in your own context—you may have found yourself wondering: Why does this work feel so deeply transformative? What’s actually happening here? In this special episode, we’re pulling back the curtain on a groundbreaking, multi-year research project that’s beginning to explore those very questions. Dr. Danielle Zurinsky of the Allender Center and Dr. David C. Wang of Fuller Theological Seminary join Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen to share what they’re discovering so far—and why this moment matters. This work is part of a broader initiative we’re calling the NFTC Model Research & Publication Project. It’s an ambitious, long-term effort to clarify, codify, and formally articulate the core framework of Narrative Focused Trauma Care. Grounded in the decades-long work of Dr. Dan Allender, this project is about more than research—it’s about building a foundation that allows this healing model to be recognized, trusted, and shared more widely. In today’s conversation, we’re letting you in early—before the publications—because we want this process to be rooted in relationship, transparency, and shared vision. Whether you’re a practitioner, a past participant, or someone simply curious about the impact of story, you’re part of this unfolding journey, too! And if your own healing has been shaped by story engagement with NFTC, this is a chance to be part of something bigger. You can support the continuation of this growing body of research—fueling everything from the team of scholars and writers to expanded training opportunities and broader recognition in therapeutic, academic, and spiritual spaces. You can visit to contribute at any financial level. We are currently fundraising to support the next phase of this project’s continuation. Your contribution will help ensure this work continues—so more people, families, and communities can experience the deep transformation that comes through engaging their stories with courage and care. To learn more about NFTC, visit
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“Make Sense of Your Story” with Adam Young, LCSW
05/02/2025
“Make Sense of Your Story” with Adam Young, LCSW
Today Dan and Rachael welcome longtime friend and Allender Center Facilitator Adam Young, LCSW, to the podcast for a deeply moving conversation about the unexpected plot twists that shape our stories—and how they can become sacred invitations to connection, healing, and transformation. Adam, who is a counselor, author, podcast host, and an NFTC Certified Instructor & Facilitator with the Allender Center, joins us to talk about his new book, Make Sense of Your Story: Why Engaging Your Past with Kindness Changes Everything. He vulnerably shares about a life-altering moment that brought him to his knees, and ultimately, into deeper communion with God. Together, Adam, Dan, and Rachael explore why revisiting the painful parts of our stories isn’t a detour from growth, but the very path that helps us make sense of who we are today and imagine who we’re becoming. Whether it's the story of our family of origin, our bodies, our culture, or our relationship with God, Adam offers practical and grace-filled ways to approach our histories with kindness instead of shame. Join us for today’s conversation to consider how you can engage your past with even more courage and kindness—and to discover freedom, healing, and hope along the way. If you haven’t already, don’t wait - order your copy of Adam Young’s new book, Make Sense of Your Story: Why Engaging Your Past with Kindness Changes Everything: or ==== More Resources from the Allender Center: Free Guided Story Exercise – Take the next step in engaging your story with a free guided reflection and writing resource: Join a Story Workshop – Go deeper in your healing journey with others at an upcoming Story Workshop:
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The Support That Ministry Leaders Need with Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman
04/25/2025
The Support That Ministry Leaders Need with Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman
Pastors today are navigating a complex, demanding, and often overwhelming landscape. Beyond the pulpit, they're expected to show up as counselors, administrators, fundraisers, teachers, building caretakers—and more. Some research even suggests pastors are carrying the weight of 13 different roles. It’s no wonder so many feel stretched thin, exhausted, and alone. Today, Rachael and Dan sit down with Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman, Associate Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement, to name the often-unseen burdens pastors and ministry leaders carry—and to explore what it means to create space for care, support, and more sustainable leadership. Whether you're a pastor, a ministry leader, or someone who walks alongside and loves one, this episode offers a deeply human invitation: to reflect on how we care for ourselves, our leaders, and our communities. You’ll find honest stories, thoughtful wisdom, and tangible practices for cultivating resilience—not by striving harder, but by rooting more deeply in connection: with God, with others, and with the truth that we were never meant to carry it all alone. Related Resources: Feeling overwhelmed or isolated in ministry? You’re not alone. The offers tools, support, and community to help you rediscover joy, build resilience, and lead with lasting impact. Find program offerings and resources at and find out more about Resilience Circles at . Self-Facilitated Resilience Retreat Guides: Download this free series to focus on three key areas of resilience: People, Practices, and Purpose. These mini-retreats are flexible and self-paced, providing practical tools to navigate life's challenges and strengthen your resilience. Get your free guides at . Rose cites the work of , a Boston University School of Theology professor of psychology of religion and theology, who has found rates of post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms in clergy at levels higher than those in post-deployment military personnel. : . Rose also recommends looking into the work of Abraham Kuypter on public theology. Find more here:
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The Narrative of Good Friday
04/18/2025
The Narrative of Good Friday
Good Friday is often described as paradoxical—a day of deep sorrow somehow called “good.” In this moving episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen invite us into that paradox, not just as observers of the crucifixion story, but as participants—people whose own stories of betrayal, abandonment, and suffering echo the narrative of Jesus’ final hours. Together, they explore what it means to enter into Good Friday by entering into our own “Fridays”—those dark and disorienting moments of our lives when we've not only been betrayed, but also betrayed others. The conversation invites us to reflect on the intersection between personal pain and collective suffering, and to consider how our experiences of humiliation, violence, and even despair connect us to the story of the cross. But this episode is not one of despair alone. It’s an invitation to sit honestly in the tension of a day when evil seems to win, and yet—somehow—we dare to believe redemption is being forged in the depths of that agony. As Rachael says, it’s a time when we’re forced to confront the death of a dream, the silence between what is and what is promised. And yet, even in the sorrow, there is a movement toward hope. This topic is not easy—but it is so important to engage. We hope today’s conversation offers space to weep, to name, and to consider how our own stories might be met and transformed by the suffering and love of Christ.
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Sibling Dynamics
04/11/2025
Sibling Dynamics
Few relationships shape us like those with our siblings. Whether you have siblings, share a sibling-like bond with a cousin or family friend, or are a parent navigating sibling dynamics, these relationships often play a significant role in defining our identity. Since so many of our listeners have asked us to explore this topic, today on the Allender Center Podcast, Dan and Rachael are diving deep into the messy, beautiful, and sometimes heartbreaking world of sibling dynamics. In today’s episode, we explore how these dynamics often lead to rivalries, alliances, and, at times, painful wounds that can last well into adulthood. These sibling roles aren’t just part of our personal stories—they are deeply rooted in ancient patterns. We see these themes echoed in biblical texts, where stories of favor, envy, and scarcity unfold through generations. From Cain and Abel to Joseph and his brothers, the struggles we face with our siblings have a long, storied history. Tune in to gain fresh perspectives on navigating your sibling relationships, create space for growth, and learn how to honor the complex and beautiful stories each of you is living out.
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Revisiting “The Sex Talk You Never Got” with Sam Jolman
04/04/2025
Revisiting “The Sex Talk You Never Got” with Sam Jolman
Last year, we had a powerful conversation with author Sam Jolman about his book The Sex Talk You Never Got—one of our most-listened-to episodes of the year. Now, Sam returns to share more about the book’s impact and to dive deeper into its themes. This time, he and Dan explore the biblical story of Amnon and Tamar in 2 Samuel 13, a tragic account of lust, power, and sexual violence that resonates deeply with age-old struggles of the human heart. Sam unpacks how a man’s sexuality is shaped not only by personal choices but also by the unspoken legacies of family and culture. He challenges men to move beyond a simplistic “behaving vs. not behaving” mindset and instead engage their own stories with honesty, grief, and healing. Their conversation also examines the cycle of violence—how Absalom’s attempt to avenge Tamar only leads to further destruction. True healing requires humility, repentance, and a willingness to confront painful histories. This conversation is a call to courage: to name harm, seek healing, and embrace a sexuality that honors and protects rather than consumes and destroys. Please note that this episode contains discussions of sexual development and sexual abuse, including rape, and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. === Are you ready to step into a deeper journey of healing? Recovery Week is a transformative, holistic experience designed to create a safe, relational space where survivors of sexual abuse can process their stories with care and courage. Here, you’ll be invited to engage the deep impact of your past while discovering a path toward restoration, connection, and self-compassion. Applications are now open for our Summer 2025 Recovery Weeks. Take the next step toward healing. Visit to learn more.
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Food, Sex, and Shame, Part 2
03/28/2025
Food, Sex, and Shame, Part 2
In part two of this conversation, Dan and Rachael continue their exploration by addressing the profound link between shame, food, and sex. Shame is often leveraged by evil around our core needs for nourishment and intimacy to isolate and create deeper wounds, making it difficult to engage these areas with openness. Dan emphasizes, "Knowing your story’s vulnerability to how you have been harmed, but also how you've used food and sex," is crucial. Rather than allowing shame to silence or control us, Dan and Rachael encourage listeners to confront it with boldness. While shame may never fully disappear, we can engage it—not with harshness or self-destruction, but with a fierce kindness and courageous defiance. Rachael shares: “The Spirit is often inviting me in the disruption of shame, not to power up and go toward fight, flight or freeze as a way to disrupt shame, but to move toward tenderness, to move toward grief, to move toward a kind of righteous anger that leads to a ‘hell no.’” Ultimately, the work of dismantling shame happens within a community of care. Dan reminds us that true healing takes place in a "playground of kindness"—a space where we are seen, known, and deeply loved. Please note that this episode contains discussions of sexual development, sex, body image, and disordered eating, and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
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Food, Sex, and Shame, Part 1
03/21/2025
Food, Sex, and Shame, Part 1
Both food and sex are vital for sustaining life yet are often fraught with complex emotions and struggles. In the first of a two-part conversation, Dan and Rachael invite you to explore these deeply personal topics with curiosity and compassion. While we've previously discussed shame, food, and sex as separate issues, today we’re diving into their powerful connection—and why it matters. Both food and sex are not just about survival; they can also offer comfort, pleasure, and a sense of belonging. From our earliest moments in the womb, these embodied experiences shape our understanding of safety, love, and connection. Yet, many of us know all too well the tension that surrounds them. Cultural messages, systemic oppression, and personal trauma can leave us feeling overwhelmed or disconnected from these vital parts of our humanity. Our hope is that this conversation reminds you: your relationship with food and sexuality is part of your broader story—a journey toward healing and wholeness. As you listen, we invite you to reflect on your own experiences with tenderness and grace, knowing that you are not alone in these struggles. Please note that this episode contains discussions of sexual development, sex, body image, and disordered eating, and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
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Honoring Origin Stories with Pastor James A. White
03/14/2025
Honoring Origin Stories with Pastor James A. White
We’re thrilled to welcome back Pastor James A. White, who challenges us to think deeply about the stories we’ve been told — and the ones we haven’t. Who decides which stories get remembered and which are forgotten? How has a Western lens shaped our understanding of the gospel? And what can happen when we truly honor the origin stories of everyone — individual cultures, histories, and experiences? Pastor White believes that our past holds the key to both understanding the present and shaping a better future. In a world where truth is often distorted or silenced, he calls us to reclaim the power of storytelling — to listen well, read with intention, and resist narratives that erase or exclude. Drawing from the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman, Pastor White highlights how Jesus intentionally crossed cultural divides to connect with and honor another’s story — a powerful example of wisdom, humility, and compassion. The conversation calls for greater humility and curiosity in how we engage with others' stories, especially those shaped by trauma, resistance, and survival, while acknowledging the ways history and power influence how stories are told and remembered.
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Confronting Christian Nationalism - Part 2 with Rev. Dr. David Rice
03/07/2025
Confronting Christian Nationalism - Part 2 with Rev. Dr. David Rice
We’re continuing our conversation with Rev. Dr. David Rice about confronting Christian nationalism—a topic we’re diving into because of the ways that it can deeply affect our faith, our communities, and how we engage with one another in this shifting cultural and political landscape. In our last episode, David shared his personal story—how his upbringing, ministry experiences, and cultural shifts shaped his understanding of faith and politics. We explored the unique challenges pastors face in addressing these issues from the pulpit and the tension of being accused of getting "too political" when speaking out about national concerns. If you haven’t had a chance to listen yet, we encourage you to In this episode, we’ll dig deeper into: What Christian nationalism is and why it’s a critical issue for people of faith, Our collective longing for control—something humanity has wrestled with since the very beginning—and how this longing fuels Christian nationalism, And how we can thoughtfully engage with our friends, neighbors, and fellow believers in conversations about these challenging issues. We hope our conversation with David sparks some new thoughts or insights into how power is being used, where our faith fits into these conversations, and how we can move forward in meaningful, compassionate ways. About Our Guest: is BJC’s digital strategist, leading online engagement for the organization and its campaign. is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization that brings people together to tackle today’s serious threats to religious liberty, including the targeting of religious minorities, the rise of Christian nationalism, and the politicization of houses of worship. Ordained in the American Baptist Churches USA, Rice joined BJC’s staff in 2024 after previously serving in rural parish ministry and starting his own communications consulting firm. Rice earned a Doctor of Ministry degree in missiology and organizational leadership from Western Theological Seminary and a Master of Divinity degree from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. His undergraduate degree is from Huntington University, where he studied youth ministry and Bible. Rice, who has lived on the West Coast and in the UK, now lives in Michigan with his family. He enjoys cycling, gardening, cross-country skiing, sourdough bread baking, traveling, and Arsenal football.
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Confronting Christian Nationalism - Part 1 with Rev. Dr. David Rice
02/28/2025
Confronting Christian Nationalism - Part 1 with Rev. Dr. David Rice
Christian nationalism is a growing issue in the U.S., raising important questions about the relationship between faith and politics. How does our faith shape the way we engage with political issues? And are our political allegiances influencing our faith in ways we may not realize? While we’re certainly not a news or political network, this is a timely and necessary conversation. Power—both religious and political—can be used to bring about justice and healing, but it can also be wielded in ways that cause harm. In the first episode of a two-part conversation, we're joined by Rev. Dr. David Rice, an alumnus of The Seattle School and Digital Strategist for BJC, where he leads online engagement and the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign. David begins by sharing his personal story—how his upbringing, ministry experiences, and cultural influences shaped his understanding of faith and politics. He also speaks to the challenges pastors and faith leaders face when addressing national issues from the pulpit, often being accused of being “too political.” We invite you to come back next week for part two of this conversation as David, Dan, and Rachael dive deeper—defining Christian nationalism, exploring our collective longing for control, and considering how we can engage with our communities in meaningful ways.
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Who Is Your Neighbor? with Dr. J. Derek McNeil
02/21/2025
Who Is Your Neighbor? with Dr. J. Derek McNeil
In this episode, Rachael Clinton Chen welcomes back Dr. J. Derek McNeil, President and Provost of The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, for a thoughtful conversation about navigating today’s fragmented world with hope, kindness, and connection. They explore how uncertainty, institutional distrust, and cultural polarization have left many feeling unmoored. As people of faith, we are called to love God and our neighbors—but how do we do this in a world that feels so divided? Regardless of religious, political, or personal identity, we all feel the effects of fragmentation. We are in search of a new story—a story that can hold us together. Dr. McNeil reflects on the deep need for community and the dangers of isolating in survival mode. Together, they discuss the challenge of living faithfully amid social, political, and relational fractures. If you’re grappling with feelings of disconnection or isolation, or if you’ve been wondering how to engage with others in a fractured world, tune in for a powerful conversation about finding hope, purpose, and co-creating a renewed sense of belonging.
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The Disruptive Power of Kindness
02/14/2025
The Disruptive Power of Kindness
Valentine’s Day is often wrapped in commercialized romance, but what if love is more than sentimentality? In this episode, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen explore an aspect of love that we all need—kindness. But not the shallow, conflict-avoidant “niceness” we often mistake for kindness. Instead, they dive into the disruptive, provocative nature of true kindness—kindness that challenges, disrupts old patterns, and calls us into deeper growth. Kindness asks us to receive care and, sometimes, even risk disconnection for the sake of deeper intimacy. Together, Dan and Rachael unpack how true kindness is an act of restoration. They discuss the surprising, ennobling nature of kindness and how it reflects the heart of God—a love that offers goodness even when we least deserve it. So, as we navigate a day often filled with roses and greeting cards, let’s consider the kind of love that truly transforms—the kind that sees, knows, and calls us toward who we long to become.
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“Roots and Rhythm” with Charlie Peacock
02/07/2025
“Roots and Rhythm” with Charlie Peacock
At the Allender Center, we love stories—and this week, we’re honored to hear from Charlie Peacock as he shares his own. His brand-new memoir, “Roots and Rhythm: A Life in Music,” offers a deep dive into the journey that shaped his legendary career. A Grammy Award-winning music producer whose work has shaped the sound of multiple generations, Charlie opens up about his journey through music, his creative process, and the stories behind his life — and the stories he’s chosen to tell in his memoir. Join us for a conversation that explores artistry, spirituality, identity, and the cost of seeing the world in a different way. You can find Charlie Peacock’s latest book, , wherever books are sold. === Find the transcript for this episode and more at:
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Why Does My Healing Matter?
01/31/2025
Why Does My Healing Matter?
Healing isn’t about “fixing” yourself or completing a checklist. It’s about stepping into the fullness of who you were created to be. It’s about reclaiming the parts of you that trauma, disappointment, or systems of injustice have tried to diminish. As Dan puts it: “Healing can't take over our lives in the sense that you do nothing but heal. But there is something about love—love of your own body and what it can bring others when you are healthier.” Your healing matters because you matter—your story, your relationships, and the unique impact God has called you to make in the world. The journey toward healing can feel messy, nonlinear, and even lonely at times—but it doesn’t have to be. Rachael and Dan remind us that healing isn’t something we’re meant to do alone. Healing happens in connection—with trusted friends, family, care providers, and a supportive community. It’s a process we walk through together—supported by community, grounded in love, and marked by hope. We hope this week’s podcast episode offers wisdom and practical steps to help you reimagine your relationship with healing this year. This episode contains some mild language; listener discretion is advised.
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Story Work: What It Is and Why It Matters with Adam Young, Cathy Loerzel, and Dan Allender
01/24/2025
Story Work: What It Is and Why It Matters with Adam Young, Cathy Loerzel, and Dan Allender
Have you ever wondered what we mean when we say “your story” and why it matters? In this special episode, Adam Young, Cathy Loerzel, and Dan Allender sit down together to unpack the basics. Whether you’re new to this conversation or you’ve been on the journey for a while, this is a perfect place to start—or to revisit the foundation of story work. We’re thrilled to co-release this episode with The Place We Find Ourselves Podcast. Grab a cup of coffee, find a cozy spot, and join us as we explore the transformative power of engaging your story. If this conversation resonates with you, we’d love for you to join us in person (or online!) at the StoryWork Conference in Atlanta, GA, on Saturday, February 22, 2025. Spend a day diving deeper into your story with Dan, Cathy, and Adam. Therapists, CEUs are available! Ready to take the next step? Find all the details at:
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Tending to One Another’s Stories in Marriage with Dan & Becky Allender
01/17/2025
Tending to One Another’s Stories in Marriage with Dan & Becky Allender
To celebrate the forthcoming release of The Deep-Rooted Marriage, co-authored by Dan Allender and Steve Call, Dan and Becky Allender reflect on their own marriage story — its unique dynamics, the challenges they’ve faced, and the redemptive journey they’ve walked together. They open up about how their family-of-origin stories shaped their relationship in ways they didn’t initially realize and the intentional work it took to build new, healthier ways of connecting, particularly over the past decade. Whether you’re married, dating, or reflecting on other relationships in your life, we think Dan and Becky’s vulnerability and hard-earned insights will resonate with anyone who has felt stuck in a pattern or wondered how to move forward toward healing. Their story is a powerful reminder that meaningful growth takes time, courage, kindness, and the willingness to engage your stories — together. Be sure to get your copy of The Deep-Rooted Marriage, available or at your favorite bookseller on January 21, 2025.
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Creating a Better Marriage Through Story with Becky Allender
01/10/2025
Creating a Better Marriage Through Story with Becky Allender
Becky Allender sits down with Rachael Clinton Chen for a one-on-one conversation. Becky reflects on how she and Dan have experienced profound transformation in their marriage, particularly since the Allender Center was founded in 2011. It was during this time that they began practicing the fundamentals of story engagement within their own relationship—a journey that not only changed their lives but also inspired the Marriage offerings at the Allender Center. No matter what season you’re in—whether your relationship is new or you’ve been married for decades like Dan and Becky—there’s always something new to learn. Every step offers a chance to meet one another with greater kindness, compassion, and understanding. Next week, Dan will rejoin the podcast conversation, but today, we hope you enjoy this episode with Becky and Rachael as they share their wisdom and reflections on marriage and connection. Listener Resources: Check out of The Deep-Rooted Marriage by Dan Allender and Steve Call.
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Is Hope Worth the Risk?
01/03/2025
Is Hope Worth the Risk?
As we think about the upcoming year, we know that hope can feel elusive. Weighed down by uncertainty, exhaustion, and a world filled with division and stress, it’s easy to wonder if hope is even worth holding onto. Hope carries heartache. Longing for something better can feel vulnerable, especially when past disappointments and cynicism weigh heavy on our hearts. It can feel safer to let go of hope than to risk the ache of unfulfilled desire. But as Dan Allender shares, hope isn’t passive or naïve. It’s “a kind of patience that does not erase desire, but has a resilience to remain in the movement toward the dream that hope holds, with a kind of defiance—a willingness to say, I don't just wait passively, I wait in a way in which I'm willing to risk on the anticipation of the arrival of what my heart most deeply desires.” Hope doesn’t deny the pain of the past or present; it’s a courageous choice to believe in the future possibility of good. And it often begins small—a moment of gratitude, a glimpse of beauty, or the connection we find with others. This year, we can choose hope—not because it’s easy, but because it opens us up to something deeper, truer, and worth desiring.
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Reflections on the Year with Dr. Dan & Becky Allender
12/27/2024
Reflections on the Year with Dr. Dan & Becky Allender
As we near the close of the year, Dan and Becky Allender are continuing a podcast tradition: sitting down to reflect on their experiences and inviting you, our listeners, to join them in this meaningful practice. Dan and Becky share their own reflections—what they’ve learned, what they’re grieving, and what they’re celebrating—as they prepare to transition into a new season. They’ve also shared a few practical ways you can reflect on your year: Scroll through your photo gallery. Notice the moments that brought you joy, growth, or even challenge. Review your calendar. Whether you logged your events in a digital calendar or on paper, look back on events and milestones from each month. Do you notice any themes? Choose five words. If you could describe your year in just five words, what would they be? We hope you’ll take a moment as we close out the year to pause, reflect, and dream for what’s to come.
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The Complexities of Christmas
12/13/2024
The Complexities of Christmas
With Christmas just around the corner, it’s easy to get lost in the comforts of gifts, gatherings, and familiar holiday carols. Yet in today’s podcast, Dan and Rachael remind us that the true celebration of Christmas means embracing the profound disruption Jesus brought to the world—a call to love, bless, and challenge the status quo, even in a world often defined by hatred and division. This conversation invites us to see Christmas as more than a season of comfort. It’s a time of transformation, calling us to step into the work of love, justice, and restoration. Merry Christmas from all of us here at the Allender Center! We’ll take a short break on the podcast next week, and will return on December 27th with a year-end reflection from Dan and Becky Allender.
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