The Art of SBA Lending

A podcast for SBA Lenders

Big Updates from Art of SBA HQ 01/15/2025

The Elon Musk of SBA Lending (Season Finale) feat. Chris Hurn | Ep. 170 12/19/2024

The Elon Musk of SBA Lending (Season Finale) feat. Chris Hurn | Ep. 170 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray Drew sits down with Chris Hurn to explore the complexities of entrepreneurship, leadership, and finance. Chris shares the story of winding down his previous company, Fountainhead, navigating the challenges of partnerships, and transitioning to his latest venture—a business bank in West Georgia. From educating clients about SBA loans to building a team that aligns with company culture, Chris highlights the balancing act between growth, innovation, and risk. He also offers insights into: The risks and rewards of entrepreneurship Effective marketing strategies for the modern business landscape Navigating the competitive world of SBA lending and business acquisitions Join Ray and Chris for a candid conversation about the evolving business world, and gain valuable takeaways for your own journey. Be sure to subscribe to keep up with the rest of our Vegas interview series from NAGGL 2024! This episode is sponsored by: The Content Store The Content Store is a video content agency specialized in podcast, YouTube, and short form video editing. Elevate your brand with premium video content today. Go to to get in touch. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34527695

Largest SBA Loan Service Provider Gets Acquired (again) feat. Mike Breckheimer | Ep. 169 12/12/2024

Largest SBA Loan Service Provider Gets Acquired (again) feat. Mike Breckheimer | Ep. 169 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray sits down with Mike Breckheimer at NAGGL 2024 to discuss the ins and outs of starting a lender service provider (LSP) business and navigating the SBA ecosystem. Mike shares his extensive experience building turnkey solutions for banks, credit unions, and other institutions looking to outsource SBA loan operations. He dives into the intricate balance of compliance, relationship building, and patience required to thrive in this niche industry. Key Highlights: Starting an LSP: Learn the essential steps to establish yourself as a trusted SBA lender service provider, including the necessary regulatory steps with OCRM. Sales Strategies for LSPs: Mike explains the long sales cycle when working with banks and credit unions and how patience was the key during the process. Navigating SBA Oversight: Discover the role of OCRM in reviewing lender service provider agreements and maintaining oversight in the SBA ecosystem. Tech & Innovation in SBA Lending: Explore how emerging technology and data analytics are reshaping the SBA lending landscape. Whether you're an aspiring LSP entrepreneur or a seasoned professional curious about industry trends, this episode is packed with valuable insights on the current state of SBA lending. Don’t miss out on our exclusive NAGGL interview series—subscribe now to catch every episode! This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Data Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit . Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34407015

The Fixer: Managing Risk and Taking Names feat. Brent Ciurlino | Ep. 168 11/28/2024

The Fixer: Managing Risk and Taking Names feat. Brent Ciurlino | Ep. 168 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending Ray is joined by Brent Ciurlino at NAGGL as they unpack Brent’s background in risk management and where he got his reputation as: "the fixer” Brent held significant roles, including the Director of Asset Marketing at the FDIC and several senior positions within SBA-regulated entities. His current position is with Velocity, an SBLC, where he oversees the company's strategic growth and risk management operations. Known for his innovative contributions to SBA oversight mechanisms, he has been instrumental in developing key regulatory frameworks. Moreover, Brent explains his contributions to the development of the OCRM's oversight tools like PARIS and SMARt, and his experiences in guiding multiple SBA-licensed entities through times of economic uncertainty. Key Takeaways: Strategic Growth in SBA Lending: Understand the dynamics of expanding SBA lending operations sustainably and effectively. Navigating Non-Bank Lender Challenges: Explore the pressures and regulatory requirements faced by non-bank lenders in the SBA landscape. Advocating for Risk Management: Learn the importance of balanced risk management in preventing institutional failures. Listen in as Brent and Ray explore the evolving market, the significance of risk management, and insights on navigating SBA's complex regulations. Be sure to subscribe to keep up with the rest of our Vegas interview series from NAGGL 2024! This episode is sponsored by: Baker Lewis Baker Lewis is the SBA lending industry’s premier executive search and personnel consulting firm. Schedule a call by reaching out to Dustin Baker at 940-230-4321. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34192185

SBA Operations: The Backbone of The Industry feat. Jackie Bogdan | Ep. 167 11/21/2024

SBA Operations: The Backbone of The Industry feat. Jackie Bogdan | Ep. 167 This week on The Art of SBA Lending Podcast we have another special guest joining us for an interview live from the NAGGL conference in Vegas. Welcome Jackie Bogdan! We’re getting into all things operations, execution and closing. Tune in now and subscribe to stay in the loop for more episodes! This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in lien searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34074316

Adding Value to your Team, Your Bank, & Your Borrowers feat. Michael Johnston | Ep. 166 11/14/2024

Adding Value to your Team, Your Bank, & Your Borrowers feat. Michael Johnston | Ep. 166 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending Ray is joined by Michael Johnston at NAGGL as they explore Michael’s journey from BDO to national sales manager and his approach to driving value at every stage of the SBA lending process. Michael shares his vision of SBA lending in today’s evolving landscape, where efficiency, accountability, and teamwork are non-negotiable. Aiming to streamline small-balance loan processing to as little as 2-5 days, Michael highlights the role of technology, a strong referral network, and consistent credit philosophy. He also provides insight into the qualities he looks for in BDOs—highly motivated “grinders” who are dedicated to getting results. Key Takeaways: Strategic Growth: How Michael leverages digital marketing, a robust broker network, and high-efficiency standards, noting how steady, methodical growth is preferred over rapid expansion that could be difficult to sustain. Team Dynamics: The importance of hiring the right people, fostering a collaborative culture, and maintaining a consistent credit philosophy across the board. Process Efficiency: Practical ways to reduce approval times, enhance productivity, and meet client expectations without sacrificing quality or accuracy. Listen in as Michael and Ray discuss how to bring value to your team, your bank, and your borrowers in this engaging and informative episode. Be sure to subscribe to keep up with the rest of our Vegas interview series from NAGGL 2024! This episode is sponsored by: Baker Lewis Baker Lewis is the SBA lending industry’s premier executive search and personnel consulting firm. Schedule a call by reaching out to Dustin Baker at 940-230-4321. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33926832

The Future of the SBA 7a Program feat. Mike Breckheimer, Charles Rho, & Bob Coleman | Ep. 165 11/07/2024

The Future of the SBA 7a Program feat. Mike Breckheimer, Charles Rho, & Bob Coleman | Ep. 165 This week on The Art of SBA Lending we’re bringing you through the evolution of The SBA. What started as a small-scale government program in 1953 has grown into a $35+ billion industry, touching every corner of U.S. business. In this episode, The Art of SBA Lending explores the dynamic story of SBA 7(a) – and the potential paths it might take. Ray and an expert panel of Art of SBA Contributors discuss: ➡️ Reaction to the bold changes of 2023: whether the concerns surrounding the sweeping changes made in 2023, such as the “Do What You Do” policy and new SBLC licenses, were justified or overblown. ➡️ Zero-subsidy model: Ray asks the panel if they think the zero-subsidy model (where the program is funded through fees, not government appropriations) will continue, considering the government’s massive deficits and spending. ➡️ Emerging technologies: The panel shares thoughts on emerging technologies that could transform the SBA lending space. As well as desired and anticipated changes for the industry over the next 5 years and what it’s going to take to stand out. Join Ray Drew, Bob Coleman, Charles Rho, and Mike Breckheimer as they reflect on where SBA 7(a) is headed next. 🎙️ This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in lien searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33826492

What It Takes to Create Raving Fans in SBA Lending feat. Charles H Green, Chris Hurn, & Javier Jorge | Ep. 164 10/31/2024

What It Takes to Create Raving Fans in SBA Lending feat. Charles H Green, Chris Hurn, & Javier Jorge | Ep. 164 What does it take to make your borrowers so happy that they can’t stop talking about their experience? In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray Drew is joined by a panel of SBA lending pros to discuss how to elevate your customer service game and turn borrowers into raving fans. SBA loans can be complex, and the journey to closing is rarely easy. But top producers know that exceptional service isn’t about avoiding obstacles—it’s about guiding your borrower through them with empathy, attention, and solutions. Today, we’re sharing five proven methods that will not only enhance your borrower’s experience but also create lifelong advocates for your services. Key topics include: Why empathy is a game-changer in borrower relationships The power of doing the unexpected to create a lasting impression Aligning your services with borrower needs to generate true loyalty With expert insights from our panel of Art of SBA Contributors: Chris Hurn, SBA Lending Expert Javier Jorge, Director of Government Guaranteed Lending at Locality Bank Charles Green, SVP at Harvest Small Business Finance Whether you’re an established BDO or just starting out, this episode offers invaluable advice for creating the kind of borrower experience that leads to repeat business and enthusiastic referrals. This episode is sponsored by: The Content Store The Content Store is a video content agency specialized in podcast, YouTube, and short form video editing. Elevate your brand with premium video content today. Go to to get in touch. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33699847

Getting Rid of the "All Available Collateral" Rule feat. Brian Carlson, Bob Coleman, & Darren Davis | Ep. 163 10/24/2024

Getting Rid of the "All Available Collateral" Rule feat. Brian Carlson, Bob Coleman, & Darren Davis | Ep. 163 The Art of SBA Lending Podcast is back this week with a new episode full of big ideas, fresh perspectives, and one (more) especially bold opinion from Ray. Join Ray and an expert panel of contributors as they explore the top trending topics in the SBA industry right now: The “big fish” trend—how top lenders are taking over more of the SBA market, and what that means for small-midsized shops How lenders approach the SOP’s grey areas—practical tips for new and experienced lenders Ray’s proposal to eliminate the all available collateral rule—why it makes sense, and how it will grow the program. This week’s panel of Art of SBA Contributors includes: 🎙️ Bob Coleman - Founder of The Coleman Report 🎙️ Brian Carlson - Managing Director at Mission Valley Bank 🎙️ Darren Davis - President of SBA Lending at Colony Bank Tune in for an insightful conversation on how the industry is evolving, how to navigate its current position, and where it’s headed next. This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Data Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33593332

10 Culture-Killers: A Practical Guide on Building Culture | Ep. 162 10/17/2024

10 Culture-Killers: A Practical Guide on Building Culture | Ep. 162 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, we’re diving into the heart of building a strong and intentional company culture. Ray and our panel of experts discuss why defining a company’s culture goes beyond labeling it as “good” or “bad.” Instead, it’s about identifying what makes your organization unique and aligning it with the values and behaviors you want to see reflected in your team every day. We’ll explore: The importance of crafting clear, actionable core values and how they can serve as the backbone of a successful culture How to embed these values throughout your operations, from hiring practices to daily interactions Ray’s top 10 “culture killers” and the steps you can take to eliminate them from your organization, ensuring a positive and productive work environment Our panel of Art of SBA Contributors bring a wealth of experience and insights to the conversation: -Chris Hurn -Brooke Mirenda, President & CEO of SEDCO -Jeannie Yoder, SBA Regional Executive at United Community Bank. Whether you’re just starting to build a culture from the ground up or looking to refine the one you have, this episode offers essential insights and actionable advice. We’ll share real-world examples, personal experiences, and tested strategies to help you create a place where people want to work, grow, and succeed. Tune in today and let us know what you think! This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in lien searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33495732

Combining 504 and 7(a) into 1 program feat. Ken Rosenthal, Brooke Mirenda, & Mitch Fogel | Ep. 161 10/10/2024

Combining 504 and 7(a) into 1 program feat. Ken Rosenthal, Brooke Mirenda, & Mitch Fogel | Ep. 161 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we’re bringing a big, new idea to the table: what if we could combine the SBA 7a and 504 programs into a single powerhouse loan program? In this episode, Ray Drew and our panel of Art of SBA Contributors explore the possibility of merging these two essential programs to create what Ray calls the “SBA Centaur Loan.” By taking the flexibility of the 7a program and pairing it with the affordability and stability of the 504, could we make SBA lending more accessible and efficient for small businesses? Our expert panel dives into some critical questions, including: The historical roots of 7a and 504: Why were two separate programs created, and do we still need both? Potential benefits for lenders and borrowers: How could a unified program enhance small business lending and streamline the process? Challenges and risks of a merged program: From secondary markets to regulatory impacts, what would a single program mean for the SBA community? Art of SBA Contributors this week: ✨ Brooke Mirenda, President & CEO, SEDCO ✨ Ken Rosenthal, Senior Advisor, Momentus Direct Capital ✨ Mitch Fogel, Managing Partner, Fogel Law Group Join us for an innovative discussion that examines the future of SBA lending, the pros and cons of combining these two programs, and how we might reimagine access to capital for America’s small businesses. Don’t miss this thought-provoking episode and let us know your thoughts! This episode is sponsored by: The Content Store The Content Store is a video content agency specialized in podcast, YouTube, and short form video editing. Elevate your brand with premium video content today. Go to to get in touch. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! .youtube.com Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33401017

BDO Career Paths ft. Jeannie Yoder, Dustin Baker, & Jared Johnson | Ep. 160 10/03/2024

BDO Career Paths ft. Jeannie Yoder, Dustin Baker, & Jared Johnson | Ep. 160 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray tackles a question many top-producing BDOs face: What's next? For those constantly pushing themselves to the next level, it’s not just about the numbers—it’s about growth, challenge, and finding fulfillment in their career. Ray dives into the various career paths for high-performing BDOs and unpacks the unique challenges and opportunities that come with each option: Scaling to the $100 million mark: What does it take, and is it worth the risk of burnout? Transitioning to sales management: Can managing a team offer the next level of satisfaction, or is the pay cut too steep? Becoming a shop director: What does it look like to lead your own SBA department? Can this role provide both the challenge and compensation that top BDOs are seeking? We also explore the emerging idea of the "Mini-Director" role, where BDOs can continue to grow without sacrificing income or independence. This episode is packed with real-world insights from a stellar panel of Art of SBA contributors: Dustin Baker - CEO and Cofounder of Shatterbox Jeannie Yoder - SBA Regional Executive at United Community Bank Jared Johnson - Senior Business Development Officer at First Internet Bank Whether you’re looking to expand your production or explore new career paths, this episode is for you. Tune in to learn how top BDOs are leveling up and what you can do to take the next step in your SBA lending career. Baker Lewis Baker Lewis is the SBA lending industry’s premier executive search and personnel consulting firm. Schedule a call by reaching out to Dustin Baker at 940-230-4321. [Rapid Business Plans] Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33309642

BDO Career Paths ft. Jeannie Yoder, Dustin Baker, & Jared Johnson | Ep. 160 10/03/2024

Incentivizing SBA Closers and Underwriters feat. Chris Kwiatkowski, Dustin Baker, & Darren Davis | Ep. 159 09/26/2024

Incentivizing SBA Closers and Underwriters feat. Chris Kwiatkowski, Dustin Baker, & Darren Davis | Ep. 159 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray Drew tackles the big question that can’t be ignored: Should we be paying underwriters and closers based on production? From bonuses to performance metrics, we’re exploring what it would take to reshape compensation in SBA lending. How do you incentivize underwriters and closers in a way that drives performance without crossing compliance lines? Ray is joined by this weeks Art of SBA Contributors: Dustin Baker, CEO and Co-Founder of Shatterbox Chris Kwiatkowski, President of Government Guaranteed Lending at Dogwood State Bank Darren Davis, President of SBA Lending at Colony Bank We’re covering: Why aligning compensation with performance could improve underwriting and closing speeds The risks and benefits of incentivizing non-BDO roles How incentive plans could attract new talent and boost retention How to navigate SBA compliance when implementing new pay structures 🎧 Tune in to this thought-provoking discussion and see how a shift in compensation could change your shop’s performance dynamics. Listen in today and let us know what you think in the comments or by leaving a review! This episode is sponsored by: Baker Lewis Baker Lewis is the SBA lending industry’s premier executive search and personnel consulting firm. Schedule a call by reaching out to Dustin Baker at 940-230-4321. Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33212617

How to Build a Credit Box feat. Brian Carlson, Jeannie Yoder, & Chris Kwiatkowski | Ep. 158 09/19/2024

How to Build a Credit Box feat. Brian Carlson, Jeannie Yoder, & Chris Kwiatkowski | Ep. 158 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we’re diving deep into the framework that defines SBA lending success—the credit box. Ray is joined by our panel of experts to explore how SBA shops build and refine their credit boxes to manage risk and go to market with a competitive product. What does it take to build a successful SBA credit box? Is your credit box ready for the future? With insights from this weeks Art of SBA panelists: Jeannie Yoder, SBA Regional Executive at United Community Bank Brian Carlson, SBA Managing Director at Mission Valley Bank Chris Kwiatkowski, President of Government Guaranteed Lending at Dogwood State Bank We're covering: -How to design a credit matrix that reflects your risk appetite -The role of competition in shaping your credit guidelines -Balancing conservative vs. aggressive underwriting -Post-close liquidity and its importance in credit risk assessment -The impact of regulatory compliance on your credit box decisions Tune in now for a conversation that could redefine your approach to SBA lending and leave us a review! This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in lien searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33121057

Broker Compensation feat. Charles H. Green, Javier Jorge, & Kay Anderson | Ep. 157 09/12/2024

Broker Compensation feat. Charles H. Green, Javier Jorge, & Kay Anderson | Ep. 157 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, we’re diving into one of the hottest and most complex topics in the industry today: broker compensation in SBA lending. As the competition for volume in the 7(a) space heats up, broker fees are on the rise—sometimes dramatically so. But what does that mean for the industry, lenders, and ultimately, the borrowers? Join us as Ray brings in another panel of expert Art of SBA Contributors to dissect the impact of increasing broker referral fees and the ripple effects they have on SBA lending. Is higher compensation pushing brokers to steer deals toward banks that offer the highest payout rather than the best solution for the borrower? And are those costs being passed on to the small business owner in the form of higher interest rates? In this episode, we’ll break down: The ethics and impact of rising broker compensation How higher referral fees could affect borrower pricing Why banks might be "buying" business rather than earning it A proposed solution to ensure transparency and competition in the industry Joining us are top SBA professionals: Charles Green, SVP at Harvest Kay Anderson, SVP at Live Oak Bank Javier Jorge, CEO of Chatbiz and SBA Director at Locality Bank Tune in for a candid conversation on what’s driving broker compensation trends and what the future of SBA lending might look like if these practices continue. This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Data Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit . ‌ Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to https://rapidbusinessplans.com/art-of-sba Join us at FLAGGL! Catch Ray Drew, Chris Hackney, Alan Peterson, and Sterling Birdsong speak at the FLAGGL conference on September 19th in Orlando, FL Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! ‌ BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33016687

The Great Debate: 504 vs 7(a) for Real Estate feat. Charles H. Green, Ken Rosenthal, & Brooke Mirenda | Ep. 156 09/05/2024

The Great Debate: 504 vs 7(a) for Real Estate feat. Charles H. Green, Ken Rosenthal, & Brooke Mirenda | Ep. 156 This week on The Art of SBA Lending we’re diving into a critical industry debate: the strategic differences between 504 and 7(a) loans for real estate. This episode will explore: Distinct Features: Analyze the structural nuances and financial mechanisms of 504 versus 7(a) loans. Strategic Considerations: Examine scenarios where each loan type offers superior advantages, focusing on factors like loan flexibility, interest rates, and collateral requirements. Impact Analysis: Evaluate how the choice between these loans affects long-term business relationships and portfolio health. Featuring expert insights from leading industry experts and Art of SBA Contributors: Charles Green, SVP at Harvest Ken Rosenthal, Senior Advisor at Momentus Direct Capital Brooke Mirenda, President and CEO of SEDCO 🎧 Join us on The Art of SBA Lending for a session filled with expert analysis and debate designed exclusively for SBA lenders and professionals. Tune in to gain insights that will enhance your professional practice and help navigate your decision-making process in real estate lending. This episode is sponsored by: The Content Store is a video content agency specialized in podcast, YouTube, and short form video editing. Elevate your brand with premium video content today. Go to to get in touch. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to Join us at FLAGGL! Catch Ray Drew, Chris Hackney, Alan Peterson, and Sterling Birdsong speak at the FLAGGL conference on September 19th in Orlando, FL Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! ‌ BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/32909492

Cultivating Your Own Talent (Best Practices) | Ep. 155 08/29/2024

Cultivating Your Own Talent (Best Practices) | Ep. 155 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, we dive into another crucial conversation: how do we not only attract, but also train and retain the next generation of SBA professionals? From the great financial collapse to a $37 billion year in 2021, the landscape has drastically changed. Yet, the challenge remains: cultivating a workforce that is not only skilled, but is also loyal. Welcome our Art of SBA Contributors for this week: Dustin Baker, CEO & Cofounder of Shatterbox Chris Kwiatkowski, President of Government Guaranteed Lending at Dogwood State Bank Javier Jorge, SBA Director at Lake Michigan Credit Union and Founder of ChatBiz Key Topics: Evolution of SBA hiring from post-recession recovery to today's in-demand market. Strategies to attract, train, and retain talented professionals in a competitive landscape. Creating a culture that aligns with modern workforce expectations. Balancing the investment in new employees with the risk of them being poached. Join us as our expert panel explores how successful SBA lenders are addressing these challenges. Our contributors are leaving us with actionable insights and advice, tailored for anyone aiming to enhance their team dynamics and operational success in today's SBA lending environment. This episode is sponsored by: Baker Lewis Baker Lewis is the SBA lending industry’s premier executive search and personnel consulting firm. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/32793887

Business Acquisition Underwriting Standards feat. Brian Carlson, Kay Anderson, & Charles Rho | Ep. 154 08/22/2024

Business Acquisition Underwriting Standards feat. Brian Carlson, Kay Anderson, & Charles Rho | Ep. 154 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray dives deep into the evolving world of business acquisition financing. Are lenders taking on more risk than ever before? Ray kicks things off by examining how underwriting standards for business acquisitions have shifted, allowing for up to 90% financing and bringing a wave of new buyers with little-to-no industry experience. Is this a positive change for the SBA’s mission or does it open the door to more defaults? Ray is joined by an expert panel of Art of SBA Contributors, featuring: Charles Rho, President of Velocity SBA Kay Anderson, Senior VP at Live Oak Bank Brian Carlson, SBA Managing Director at Mission Valley Bank Together, they unpack: The growing trend of self-funded search models Investor-backed injections Whether this new wave of first time entrepreneurs is sustainable With interest rates creeping up and default rates on the rise, this conversation couldn’t come at a better time. Tune in for a thoughtful discussion on the risks, rewards, and future of SBA business acquisition lending. This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in lien searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/32688442

Sourcing Deals Outside of the BDO Channel feat. Chris Hurn, Ken Rosenthal, & Mike Breckheimer | Ep. 153 08/15/2024

The Rise of the Small Loan Program feat. Mike Breckheimer, Christopher Hackney, & Darren Davis | Ep. 152 08/08/2024

The Rise of the Small Loan Program feat. Mike Breckheimer, Christopher Hackney, & Darren Davis | Ep. 152 In this episode, host Ray Drew delves into the transformative changes within the SBA 7(a) Small Loan Program. With the new SOP increasing what they consider a “small loan” from $350,000 to $500,000 and streamlining processes, SBA lending has seen a renaissance in small loans. Key topics covered include: The shift in the secondary market favoring smaller loans The role of major banks in processing these loans How major banks are stepping up their game for small loans Fintechs role in sourcing these small loans Strategies for creating and scaling a sustainable small loan program Ray brings in more Art of SBA Contributors to share their own first-hand experiences with the changes, and break down the essentials of originations, processing and underwriting in the new and growing small loan landscape of our industry. This weeks contributors: Mike Breckheimer, President and CEO of Windsor Advantage Darren Davis, President of SBA Lending at Colony Bank Christopher Hackney, President of SBA Lending at BayFirst and cohost of the BDO Show Tune in to discover how your bank can navigate and thrive in this evolving landscape of SBA small loans. Don’t miss this in-depth analysis and expert panel discussion! Navigate this episode: Introductions 1:30 Ray introduces and this weeks topic: The rise of the SBA Small Loan Program 7:05 Introduction to this weeks Art of SBA Contributors 7:25 How our panelists banks are handling small balance loans currently and moving forward. Discussing Originations 11:30 Sourcing deal flow and partnerships with fintech’s 12:35 Keys to success when working with high volume small loan brokers Discussing Credit 23:00 Creating an efficient, scalable system without taking on more risk 25:20 Auto-decisions for smaller loans 26:55 The possibility of SBA turning into fintech Overall views of the SBA Small Loan Program 32:25 Biggest obstacle SBA shops face heading into this next era 35:33 Bottle necks in SBA 38:40 Success stories and positive impacts on business owners This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Data Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit . Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/32496042

The Impact of the 2024 Election on SBA Lending feat. Bob Coleman, Chris Hurn, & Brooke Mirenda 08/01/2024

The Impact of the 2024 Election on SBA Lending feat. Bob Coleman, Chris Hurn, & Brooke Mirenda Welcome back to The Art of SBA Lending podcast! A place where the most influential leaders in the SBA lending industry come together to debate, discuss, and drive our industry forward. In today's episode, host Ray Drew kicks things off, addressing the increasing impact of politics on SBA lending. From SOP changes to funding challenges, the SBA mission for diverse funding, and the implications of the 2024 presidential elections, no stone is left unturned. Join us as we dive into a dynamic panel discussion with three esteemed Art of SBA Contributors: Brooke Mirenda, President and CEO of SEDCO Bob Coleman, Founder and Publisher at Coleman Report Chris Hurn, entrepreneur and SBA lending veteran Our experts will share their insights on: How politics has permeated SBA lending The potential impact of the 2024 elections on SBA programs The evolving mission of the SBA and its focus on diverse groups Tune in now and let us know your thoughts! Navigate the episode: 1:15 Ray speaks on political implications on SBA and the upcoming election 5:54 Panelist introductions 6:20 Has the SBA gotten more political in recent years? 7:30 Will the party in power change the course of the SBA’s core missions of access to capital and job creation? 8:25 Is there a difference between republican administration vs democrat administration when it comes to getting money out the door for Americas small businesses? 9:45 Should it be a part of prudent lending to consider race or gender when making a decision to lend? 13:50 Is there a lower demand of underserved communities requesting SBA loans? What can be done about it? 24:30 What do the next 4 years look like if Trump wins? 29:22 What do the next 4 years look like if the democratic nominee wins? 33:25 How will whoever wins the election impact the printing of new SBLC licenses? 39:50 Why isn’t there a private version of the SBA 7a loans program? Is that a potential contingency plan for the industry if it goes south? This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Data Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit . Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today with the links below and sign up for our weekly sales advice email series, Sales Ammo! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/32379987

People over Profits: Building a Culture that Retains Talent feat. Kyel Sletten | Ep. 150 06/06/2024

New SBA Shop Setting Eyes on the Top 10 feat. Jonathan Smith | Ep. 149 05/30/2024

Class is Now in Session: New SOP Edition feat. Prof. Lance Sexton | Ep. 148 05/23/2024

Unlocking Efficiency as a BDO feat. Lane Rhodes | Ep. 147 05/16/2024

The Inner Workings of the Secondary Market feat. Karen Bean | Ep. 146 05/09/2024

Raising the limit on the SBA 7a loan program feat. Steve Mariani | Ep. 145 05/02/2024

Director Shares the Secret Sauce of his SBA Program | Ep. 144 | The Art of SBA Lending 04/25/2024

Solving the Talent Gap in SBA (Shatterbox update) | Ep. 143 04/18/2024

The Art of SBA Lending

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