The Art of SBA Lending

A podcast for SBA Lenders

Final Episode: Revisiting My Roots (MCC Reunion) | Ep. 191 11/13/2025

Final Episode: Revisiting My Roots (MCC Reunion) | Ep. 191 This week marks the finale of The Art of SBA Lending podcast, and Ray Drew brings it home by reuniting with his original mentors and colleagues from the era that shaped his career: the Mercantile Capital team. Listen as they reminisce about the "good old days" of 2011–2013, an era defined by reinventing business after the 2008 crash. The panel discusses how Mercantile Capital was built around the niche business of 504 interim lending (an industry they essentially invented). They recall the unique office culture, characterized by healthy competition, daily in-person mentoring sessions, frequent celebration of birthdays, and bizarre marketing tactics (shiny envelopes and stress-ball brains). The alumni highlight the competitive, yet collaborative, environment where young talent was actively taught the business. The episode features hilarious and nostalgic stories, including the infamous "Find My iPhone" conference incident involving a police car and a hungover apartment owner. Tony shares lessons learned from the creative ways he structured deals, while Carolyn explains how she fell in love with SBA lending by serving small business owners. 🎯 In this episode: The Startup Grind: How the team pivoted after the 2008 crash to focus on the ultra-niche 504 interim lending space. The Last Chapter of the "Good Old Days": Remembering a pre-virtual, pre-AI era of paper packages, fax machines, and in-person mentorship. Learning the Ropes: The harsh but valuable lessons learned from veteran lenders, including don't pretend to know the answer and "let's shorten that up a little bit". Culture, Competition, and Camaraderie: How working together to navigate uncertainty created a special bond and connection within the team. 💬 What's your favorite memory of a mentor helping you out with a deal? Share your story in the comments. 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full-service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to https://rapidbusinessplans.com/art-of-sba /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/39019610

The Chip Mahan Interview: CEO of Live Oak Bank | Ep. 190 10/30/2025

The Chip Mahan Interview: CEO of Live Oak Bank | Ep. 190 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we sit down with Live Oak Bank CEO and founder, Chip Mahan, to discuss the revolutionary ideas that transformed the SBA landscape. Chip Mahan, who started the bank in 2008, disrupted the existing SBA playbook by focusing on nationwide industry vertical lending. Chip details the bank's founding during the 2008 financial crisis , when he was told by the FDIC to liquidate the bank. He reveals the unique philosophy that led to the bank becoming a top SBA lender, including: rejecting the traditional commission-based compensation model to properly align interests , developing a "theory of verticality" by targeting specialized industries like veterinarians and chicken farmers , and using data from the Freedom of Information Act to determine which industries pay back their loans. He argues that a floating rate 7(a) loan is the "best asset that anybody can put on any bank's books.” The episode also covers the bank's commitment to technology, the importance of perfecting the "handoff" between the lender, underwriter, closer, and servicer , and the future of banking in the age of Artificial Intelligence. Chip explains how AI will dramatically affect determining SBA loan eligibility and create an "automatic credit memo". 🎯 In this episode: Founding Under Fire: The story of getting a bank charter in May 2008 and being told to liquidate the bank in March 2009 by the head of the FDIC in Atlanta. The Verticality Edge: Why Live Oak focused on niche industries and hired domain experts to create an "unbeatable" credit box. No Commissions: Why a compensation model based on stock and growth is superior to commissions, citing Charlie Munger's famous quote on incentive plans. The Future of SBA: Chip's prediction on the future of the 7(a) program and why he believes the loan size limit should be increased to $10 or $20 million. AI & Banking: How artificial intelligence will automate the credit memo, cash flow analysis, and dramatically simplify SBA eligibility determination. 💬 Do you agree that the floating rate 7(a) loan is the best asset for any bank's books? Let us know in the comments! 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/38840750

Winding Down a Shop while Battling a Major Health Crisis feat. Heidi Whitesell | Ep. 189 10/16/2025

Winding Down a Shop while Battling a Major Health Crisis feat. Heidi Whitesell | Ep. 189 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we go behind the scenes with Heidi Whitesell to unpack the leadership, culture, challenges, and ultimate wind-down of a successful SBA lending division. Ray Drew sits down with Heidi, who he calls one of the best leaders he's ever worked for, to discuss the philosophy that created a legendary, family-like culture in a fully virtual, non-bank setting. Heidi shares the vision for her former venture, Fund-Ex, which quickly climbed the national rankings without losing its unique team culture. She reveals her leadership principles, including the powerful belief that "love always works," and explains how relentless positivity, transparency, and providing resources ahead of revenue were the keys to their success—even in a highly complex industry. The conversation takes a raw and emotional turn as Heidi opens up about navigating the intense, uncertain process of a company sale and eventual wind-down while privately battling a serious health crisis, revealing why she chose to stay and fight for her team. 🎯 In this episode: The Vision for Culture: How a fully virtual SBA team built a top-25 lending operation with a "family" culture using the principles of People, Process, and Product. Leadership Secrets: The power of transparency, collaboration, and why staying positive and putting the team first are non-negotiable for a leader. The Resource Strategy: Why investing in resources before revenue is essential for speed and service, and how this investment combats costly employee turnover. The Ultimate Test: Heidi's emotional account of leading the company through the stress of a sudden sale, a liquidity crisis, and the difficult process of a year-long wind-down. A Leader's Sacrifice: The incredible story of how a commitment to her team kept her fighting while undergoing chemotherapy. 💬 What do you think is the hardest part about building a strong culture in a virtual environment? Share your thoughts below! 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full-service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call, go to . Find out why so many top-producing BDOs recommend Rapid to their small business borrowers. Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/38601770

USDA Lending: The Last Frontier? feat. Jason Hoerr, Steve Small, & Charles Conoley| Ep. 188 10/02/2025

USDA Lending: The Last Frontier? feat. Jason Hoerr, Steve Small, & Charles Conoley| Ep. 188 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we explore the world of USDA Business & Industry (B&I) lending, often considered the "last frontier" of government-guaranteed small business finance. Host Ray Drew, who admits to knowing very little about the program, is joined by a panel of USDA experts—Steve Small, Jason Hoerr, and Charles Conoley—to demystify this often misunderstood loan program. The panel provides a deep dive into the B&I program, which is designed to stimulate economic activity and job creation in rural areas (populations of 50,000 or less). They reveal key advantages over the SBA 7(a), including larger loan amounts (up to $25 million), 30-year terms on real estate, and eligibility for investment real estate and non-profits. We tackle the common misconception that USDA loans take forever, clarifying that acquisitions can be approved in 2-4 weeks after bank approval. The panel explains why the USDA culture is fundamentally different from the SBA, acting more as a participant in a conventional loan rather than a strict insurer. Finally, we dive into the controversial question: Should the USDA B&I program be absorbed by the SBA? 🎯 In this episode: An overview of the USDA B&I program and its mission to create jobs in rural communities. Why the USDA guarantee of 80% up to $25 million is a "magic bullet" for rural commercial finance. The big cultural difference between USDA and SBA, and why USDA almost never repairs a guarantee. The value of a loan packager in navigating the "never-ending" nuances of state-by-state USDA processes. The biggest pain points: from outdated environmental regulations to staffing upheaval and inconsistent policy. 💬 Should the USDA B&I program be absorbed by the SBA? Let us know your thoughts in the comments! 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. Also, make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/38438685

Money Store Reunion feat. Joe Weiner, John Handmaker, Sam Renta, & Vince Calicchia | Ep. 187 09/25/2025

Money Store Reunion feat. Joe Weiner, John Handmaker, Sam Renta, & Vince Calicchia | Ep. 187 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're doing something special: a Money Store reunion episode. The Money Store pioneered the Business Development Officer (BDO) model and revolutionized the SBA lending industry, holding the top position for 16 consecutive years. Host Ray Drew brings together four Money Store alumni-John Handmaker, Vince Calicchia, Joe Weiner, and Sam Renta-to share stories and insights from the company that changed SBA lending forever. The panel reminisces about the legendary BDO boot camps, the company's aggressive marketing, and its commitment to a sales-driven culture. They discuss what made The Money Store so successful and how that culture has influenced a generation of SBA lenders. From Mark Turtletaub's visionary leadership and theatrical flair to the infamous "Purple Palace," the alumni provide a rare glimpse into the "good old days" of SBA lending. The episode also features a surprise appearance from Mark Rattfield, a former underwriter who became a successful BDO after being inspired by a colleague's W-2 form. 🎯 In this episode: The origins of The Money Store and how they became the number one SBA lender in the country. The "sensationalized" marketing that made them famous, including co-branded signs and the BDO boot camp. The "cookie story," a lesson in focusing on a company's specific credit box. How a sales-driven culture and a shared vision created a sense of purpose and synergy among the team. The big difference between SBA lending then and now, from paper packages to referral fee culture. 💬 What's your take on the referral fee debate? Did The Money Store-era BDOs have it better, or are today's lenders more equipped for success? Join the debate in the comments. 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full-service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call, go to . Find out why so many top-producing BDOs recommend Rapid to their small business borrowers. Link to “A day in the life” video: Link to “Mad to make loans” music video: Join Ray and some of the Money Store alum LIVE on LinkedIn September 26th at 3pm ET for a trip down memory lane: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/38348735

The Loan Broker Panel | Ep. 186 09/18/2025

The Loan Broker Panel | Ep. 186 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're getting a unique look at the state of the SBA marketplace from the perspective of the loan broker. Host Ray Drew brings together a panel of top-producing SBA loan brokers whose combined volume would rank them among the top 1 or 2% of all SBA shops. Joining the conversation are Matthias Smith from Pioneer Capital Advisory, Jerry Freedman from Freedom Business Financing, and Zach Renta from SBA Loan HQ. The panel discusses why the traditional BDO model is becoming outdated as brokers build sophisticated operations and gain direct access to information and lenders. They reveal which lenders are winning and losing in today's competitive landscape, and why the old way of doing business — relying on personal relationships over product competitiveness — is no longer enough to succeed. The conversation gets candid as the brokers air their biggest pet peeves about working with lenders, from slow response times to a lack of respect for the work they put into a deal. 🎯 In this episode: The rise of the loan broker and why they are becoming more important than the BDO in controlling deal flow. The three categories of lenders and why a more conservative bank might still be the right choice. Why time kills deals, and how a broker's job is to ensure certainty of close. The pros and cons of lenders using Loan Service Providers (LSPs) and why it can lead to a "disastrous" experience for the borrower. 💬 What do you think is the biggest challenge when working with a BDO or a broker? Drop a comment below and join the debate. 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. Also, make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/38265055

The Untold Story of Lendistry's Rise in 7(a) Lending feat. Everett Sands | Ep. 185 09/04/2025

The Untold Story of Lendistry's Rise in 7(a) Lending feat. Everett Sands | Ep. 185 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we sit down with Everett Sands, a leader who successfully propelled Lendistry into the top tier of the nation's SBA 7(a) lenders. Everett explains his approach to SBA lending, which involves applying lessons learned from other industries like residential and auto lending to an industry he feels is decades behind. As a fintech and a CDFI, Lendistry occupies a unique space in the market. Everett discusses how his company is leveraging technology and a mission-driven approach to win customers by offering a better, more user-friendly experience than predatory online lenders. He challenges the traditional, anecdote-driven banking model and argues that by embracing data, AI, and streamlined processes, the industry can better serve the small business community and protect its "home turf" from bad actors. 🎯 In this episode: ➡️ Why Everett views the financial industry's resistance to technology as "losing at home". ➡️ The surprising decline of banks in the U.S. and how it's created a gap in lending to small businesses. ➡️ How a company can handle 344,000 applications in just 15 days. ➡️ Why the mission to help small businesses is the key to embracing change and innovation. ➡️ A creative solution to the MCA refinance problem that protects both lenders and borrowers. 💬 Is it possible for traditional SBA lenders and fintechs to meet in the middle to better serve small businesses? Join the conversation in the comments below. The BDO Retreat is back for its fifth and final year, and this time, we’re taking you to Key Largo, Florida, on January 16th and 17th. Join us for a weekend of BDO workshops, exclusive networking, and, as always, a few surprises: https://www.artofsba.com/bdo-retreat 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full-service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call, go to . Find out why so many top-producing BDOs recommend Rapid to their small business borrowers. Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/38084100

Casca Has Arrived (and Will Drastically Change How We Make SBA Loans) feat. Lukas Haffer | Ep. 184 08/28/2025

Casca Has Arrived (and Will Drastically Change How We Make SBA Loans) feat. Lukas Haffer | Ep. 184 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're joined by Lukas Haffer, co-founder of Casca, to discuss how AI is set to revolutionize small business lending. With a unique background that includes building software for major European banks and earning Standform MBA, Lukas brings a fresh, outside-the-box perspective to our industry. He shares how his company is taking on the "disaster" of small business financing by arming SBA lenders with cutting-edge technology to fight back against predatory online lenders. We dive deep into how new technology can solve the industry's biggest pain points, from a closing process that takes months, to underwriters bogged down with manual data entry. Lukas reveals how his team's mission-driven approach and dedication to understanding the day-to-day work of lenders led them to build a solution that automates the tedious tasks and lets professionals focus on what they do best: building relationships and solving complex financial puzzles. 🎯 In this episode: How a software CEO "walked a mile in a lender's shoes" to understand the industry's problems firsthand. The key to building a seamless borrower experience and why 63% of applications start on nights and weekends. Why a simple online form is a game-changer for reducing human error and saving weeks of back-and-forth. The future of SBA roles and why the traditional "assembly line" model is due for an upgrade. Why the mission to empower entrepreneurs is what truly drives innovation in this space. 💬 If you could automate one task in your lending process, what would it be? Drop a comment below! If you’re interested in learning more about Casca, email Lukas Haffer at lukas@cascading.ai The BDO Retreat is back for its fifth and final year, and this time, we’re taking you to Key Largo, Florida, on January 16th and 17th. Join us for a weekend of BDO workshops, exclusive networking, and, as always, a few surprises: 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. Also, make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/37991565

Quitting the Bank: Closing 100 Deals in 24 Months feat Heather Endresen | Ep. 183 08/21/2025

Quitting the Bank: Closing 100 Deals in 24 Months feat Heather Endresen | Ep. 183 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're joined by Heather Endersen, a true veteran of the SBA world with a career spanning decades. Having managed SBA departments and pioneered business acquisition lending, Heather shares her journey and explains why she made the leap from a top-producing BDO at a bank to launching her own brokerage. Heather gets candid about the shift in the SBA landscape, from the rise of business acquisition loans to the changing dynamics between lenders and borrowers. She also pulls back the curtain on the brokerage model, explaining why it's a more efficient way to get deals done and how it's poised to be the next big thing for lenders who have built a strong personal brand. We also dive into the current challenges facing the industry, including the controversial new policies on preferred equity and seller guarantees. 🎯 In this episode: ➡️ The surprising data on business acquisition loan default rates. ➡️ Why a low rate on a real estate loan can be a "hamster wheel" for lenders. ➡️ The key difference between a BDO who is a "vendor" and one who is a "value add". ➡️ Why borrowers are now challenging lenders on their interpretation of the SOP. ➡️ The biggest policy change Heather would make to the SBA today. 💬 What's your take? Should a seller be required to personally guarantee a loan on a partial change of ownership? Join the debate in the comments! The BDO Retreat is back for its fifth and final year, and this time, we’re taking you to Key Largo, Florida, on January 16th and 17th. Join us for a weekend of BDO workshops, exclusive networking, and, as always, a few surprises: 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full-service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call, go to . Find out why so many top-producing BDOs recommend Rapid to their small business borrowers. Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/37901145

Lending with Heart: Sharing 30 Years of Lessons Learned feat. Diane Heyden | Ep. 182 08/14/2025

Lending with Heart: Sharing 30 Years of Lessons Learned feat. Diane Heyden | Ep. 182 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, I’m sitting down with Diane Heyden to get her take on leadership, career shifts, and the evolving landscape of small business lending. Diane, a seasoned veteran who has worked as a BDO, sales manager, and division manager, shares her unique perspective on what it takes to succeed in an industry where no two people are alike. From a memorable but short-lived move to a bank in Iowa to taking on a new role with a beloved team on the West Coast, Diane unpacks the lessons learned from her own career journey. We also dive into the state of the industry, debating the impact of Fintechs, the "do what you do" era, and the crucial role of "heart" in a numbers-driven world. 🎯 In this episode: ➡️ The real value of a bank's core deposits and what it's doing to lending strategies ➡️ Why BDOs are like "snowflakes," and the right way to manage them ➡️ Looking back at the aftermath of “do what you do” SBA policy ➡️ Why a marriage of old-school lending values and new technology is the key to the future ➡️ A heartwarming story of a rock climbing gym owner who is the "poster child for SBA" 💬 What's the biggest challenge you've faced in your SBA career? Share your story in the comments. 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week! Head to http://www.artofsba.com for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/37812635

A.I. Disruption: Time to Throw Out The Old Playbook ft. David Tinsley | Ep. 181 06/12/2025

A.I. Disruption: Time to Throw Out The Old Playbook ft. David Tinsley | Ep. 181 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, Ray Drew sits down with David Tinsley of Lenders Cooperative to unravel the shifting landscape of SBA lending and the role of technology and LSPs in shaping its future. Recorded live from the MALC conference, they dive into the buzz surrounding the unannounced new SOP and what it means for lenders. From the challenges of scaling an SBA division to the surprising dominance of AI in industry conversations, Ray and David explore how to navigate growth, manage risk, and foster innovation — "throwing the whole playbook out". They also tackle the ongoing debate of in-house operations versus leveraging Lender Service Providers (LSPs). 🎯 In this episode: ➡️ The "come what may" attitude of SBA lenders embracing change ➡️ How LSPs offer a lifeline for smaller banks to compete and scale ➡️ The critical role of AI and automation in streamlining SBA processes ➡️ Dispelling myths about SBA lending: "It's not as scary as they have worked it up to be" ➡️ The future of small business and SBA's opportunity to become a household name 💬 Are you ready to adapt to the new era of SBA lending, or are you holding onto the old ways? Join the conversation! 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full-service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call, go to . Find out why so many top-producing BDOs recommend Rapid to their small business borrowers. Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/36966045

On Track to Break $100 million feat. Alan Peterson | Ep. 180 05/29/2025

On Track to Break $100 million feat. Alan Peterson | Ep. 180 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, I sit down with the incredible Alan Peterson, BDO from First Internet Bank. Alan isn't just closing deals; he's redefining what it means to be a top producer in SBA lending, reaching over $30 million year-to-date and tracking towards an astonishing $120 million annually! Ray Drew and Alan dive deep into the mindset of a high-volume BDO, the strategic art of saying "no" to grow faster, and why true business value isn't always what it seems. They discuss navigating the complexities of deals, the crucial role of data and innovation in banking, and why being a trusted advisor is paramount. 🎯 In this episode: The Power of "No": How strategic selectivity leads to massive growth. MBA vs. Blue Collar: Understanding true business ownership and cash flow beyond the books. The Innovation Imperative: Why banks embracing data (like Lumos) are set to dominate the future of lending. Beyond the Brokers: Why sourcing 85% of your own deals makes you a more objective and effective advisor. Sleep Well Deals: The difference between simply buying a business and buying one you can actually sleep on. The Evolution of a Lender: How perspective and gratitude reshape your approach to the "hard" parts of the job. 💬 What are your thoughts on growing by saying "no" more often? Share your take in the comments! 🎙 This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/36765225

On Track to Break $100 million feat. Alan Peterson | Ep. 180 05/29/2025

Untold Stories: The Rise and Fall of an SBLC feat. Kirk Beason | Ep. 179 05/15/2025

Untold Stories: The Rise and Fall of an SBLC feat. Kirk Beason | Ep. 179 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're sitting down with a true SBA powerhouse: Kirk Beeson, SBA Managing Director at Veritex Community Bank, and former Chief Credit Officer (and so much more!) at Fund-Ex Solutions Group. Ray Drew and Kirk take a deep dive into the inside story of Fund-Ex: from its promising start-up days to navigating the chaos of PPP and the eventual sale. What does it really take to build an SBA shop from the ground up? How do you maintain culture while scaling at lightning speed? And when do you know it's time to step away? 🎯 In this episode: ➡️The secrets to building a winning SBA culture (and why it matters) ➡️Navigating the PPP whirlwind: Lessons learned from the front lines ➡️The dangers of burnout and how to avoid them ➡️Why interviewing your credit officer is non-negotiable for BDOs considering making a move ➡️Kirk's insights on leadership, strategy, and the future of SBA lending 💬 What are your biggest takeaways from Kirk's journey? Join the conversation in the comments! 🎙️ This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! The SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to http://www.artofsba.com for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/36574195

The Model Has Changed: Rethinking SBA Operations ft. Mike Breckheimer, Brian Carlson & Chris Kwiatkowski | Ep. 178 05/01/2025

The Model Has Changed: Rethinking SBA Operations ft. Mike Breckheimer, Brian Carlson & Chris Kwiatkowski | Ep. 178 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're confronting the hard truth: the traditional SBA lending model no longer works. Rising overhead, margin compression, and tighter audits have flipped the economics, and now, shops across the country are closing or scrambling to restructure. So what’s the new model? And how do you scale without losing control? Ray Drew is joined by three SBA leaders navigating this shift in real time. Mike Breckheimer, Brian Carlson, and Chris Kwiatkowski are coming together to unpack the numbers, the pitfalls, and the path forward. 🎯 In this episode: ➡️ Why SBA shops under $100MM are being forced to adapt or exit ➡️ How the LSP model is evolving (and where it still falls short) ➡️ The new math of SBA lending: headcount, volume, and cost per deal ➡️ Scaling smart with culture, compliance, and contingency planning ➡️ The role of AI, tariffs, and talent in shaping tomorrow’s strategy 💬 The SBA world is changing fast: are you adjusting with it? Listen now and let us know how your model is holding up. 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit lumosdata.com. Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! The SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/36384095

MCA Debate: Ryan Kroge and Joe Alam vs John Dicanio and Jerry Cocuzzo | Ep. 177 04/17/2025

MCA Debate: Ryan Kroge and Joe Alam vs John Dicanio and Jerry Cocuzzo | Ep. 177 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're diving headfirst into one of the most controversial topics in small business finance: Merchant Cash Advances (MCAs). Are they a necessary lifeline—or a dangerous trap? Ray Drew brings together a panel of experienced lenders and brokers to debate the role of MCAs in today’s lending landscape. Featuring Ryan Kroge (First Internet Bank), Joseph Alam III (Midstates Advisors), John DiCanio (Fund My Biz), and Jerry Cocuzzo (FundAll Capital), the group tackles: ➡️ The pros, cons, and misconceptions of MCA lending ➡️ Why MCAs exploded post-2008 and during COVID ➡️ The rise of “stacking” and what it’s doing to small businesses ➡️ SBA vs. MCA—what’s really faster, safer, and more sustainable? ➡️ Is regulation overdue in the MCA space? From payday-style loans to structured SBA debt, this candid roundtable doesn’t hold back. Whether you’re team SBA, team MCA, or just trying to keep your borrowers afloat—this is one episode you don’t want to miss. 💬 What’s your take? Are MCAs helping or hurting Main Street? Drop a comment below and join the debate. 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to a and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to support@corp-smart.com to learn more about their services. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! The SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/36200535

Ray’s Top 10 Priorities for the SBA ft. Charles Green, Jeannie Yoder, and Shane Pierson | Ep. 176 04/03/2025

Ray’s Top 10 Priorities for the SBA ft. Charles Green, Jeannie Yoder, and Shane Pierson | Ep. 176 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, Ray is laying out his own list of top 10 priorities for the SBA, several of which might shock you. But hey, if the SBA wants change, let's give em change. Joined by Ray is a panel of Art of SBA contributors: Charles Green, Jeannie Yoder, and Shane Pierson to discuss: ➡️ Changes to SBA 7a policy ➡️ Some fresh ideas that could streamline the program ➡️ How to avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater ➡️ Timeline for the new SOP that is inevitably dropping ➡️ Predictions for the SBA landscape in the next 12 months Join Ray and his expert panel as they break down each priority one by one. 💬 What do you think is the biggest priority should be for the SBA? Drop your thoughts in the comments! 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit lumosdata.com. Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! The SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/35989765

Addressing the SBA Default Crisis ft. Jane Castro, Kay Anderson, and Mike Breckheimer | Ep. 175 03/20/2025

Addressing the SBA Default Crisis ft. Jane Castro, Kay Anderson, and Mike Breckheimer | Ep. 175 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we're tackling one of the hottest topics in the industry: the rising SBA default rates. With concerns mounting over repayment trends, economic conditions, and policy shifts, it's time to cut through the noise and get to the facts. Ray Drew and an expert panel of Art of SBA contributors discuss: ➡️ The 3.69% default rate—how bad is it, really? ➡️ Why defaults are rising and whether it's just economic cycles catching up ➡️ How lenders can proactively manage risk and prevent unnecessary losses ➡️ The impact of interest rate hikes vs. SBA rule changes—what’s really to blame? ➡️ Portfolio management strategies that separate top-performing lenders from the rest Join Ray Drew, Jane Castro, Kay Anderson, and Mike Breckheimer as they analyze the numbers, break down borrower trends, and debate what lenders should be doing right now to navigate the shifting landscape. 💬 Is the concern overblown, or should lenders be worried? Drop your thoughts in the comments! 🎙This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART Want to win over your closing team? Next time you pick up a deal involving titled assets, go to a and request a quote for tax, tag, and title so you can structure your loan correctly right from the jump. When it comes to titling vehicles, boats, and aircrafts, CORPSMART has the knowledge to assist you confidently. CORPSMART offers full service titling solutions, working directly with the local agencies to get your titles processed accurately and on-time. If you’ve struggled with recording titles, reach out to to learn more about their services. Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! The SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/35782940

The Dogefather Strikes at the SBA ft. Darren Davis, Javier Jorge, and Brooke Mirenda | Ep. 174 03/06/2025

The Dogefather Strikes at the SBA ft. Darren Davis, Javier Jorge, and Brooke Mirenda | Ep. 174 This week on The Art of SBA Lending, we’re diving into the Twitter war of the century: Elon Musk vs. the SBA. It all started when Musk called the Small Business Administration the "Shady Business Administration" and claimed that only 8% of SBA loans get paid back. Naturally, we had to set the record straight. Ray Drew and an expert panel of Art of SBA Contributors discuss: ➡️ The impact of Musk’s comments and whether misinformation could disrupt the SBA ➡️ The reality of SBA loan repayment rates (spoiler: it’s not 8%) ➡️ What happens if the SBA 7(a) program is eliminated—would private lenders fill the gap? ➡️ The efficiency of the SBA and whether emerging tech (like AI) could make lending faster ➡️ The future of Community Advantage loans, SBLCs, and potential policy changes Join Ray Drew, Darren Davis, Javier Jorge, and Brooke Mirenda as they unpack the chaos, misinformation, and possible shake-ups in the world of SBA lending. 💬 Drop your thoughts in the comments! Should we be worried about the SBA’s future? 🎙This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit . Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to The Director’s Retreat Join us May 4-5 in Savannah, Georgia, for an exclusive event tailored to the heads of SBA 7(a) lending programs. This retreat is your chance to collaborate with peers, share insights, and tackle the unique challenges of leading SBA lending programs. Don’t miss out—register now to secure your spot! SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! The SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/35555115

BDO Power Panel: Live from the BDO Retreat ft. Glenn Giro, Alan Peterson & Jared W Johnson | Ep. 173 02/20/2025

BDO Power Panel: Live from the BDO Retreat ft. Glenn Giro, Alan Peterson & Jared W Johnson | Ep. 173 What does it take to rise as a leader in the competitive and ever-changing SBA lending space? In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, we’re joined by Glenn Giro, Alan Peterson, and Jared W. Johnson—three industry leaders who share their insights into navigating the dynamic world of SBA lending, overcoming challenges, and seizing new opportunities. SBA lending is full of growth potential, but it’s not without its challenges. Today, we dive into how these experts are leading the charge, adapting to market changes, and embracing innovation to stay ahead. Key topics include: • Overcoming the latest challenges in SBA lending • The importance of mentorship in shaping your career • How Increased competition is reshaping the industry • Navigating difficult situations in your day to day Whether you're an emerging lender or a seasoned professional, this episode is packed with actionable advice to help you navigate the evolving SBA landscape and lead with confidence. This episode is sponsored by: Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to The Director’s Retreat Join us May 4-5 in Savannah, Georgia, for an exclusive event tailored to the heads of SBA 7(a) lending programs. This retreat is your chance to collaborate with peers, share insights, and tackle the unique challenges of leading SBA lending programs. Don’t miss out—register now to secure your spot! SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! The SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/35344585

NexGen Panel (Part 2): Fresh Perspectives on SBA Lending Featuring 3 Rising Stars | Ep. 172 02/06/2025

NexGen Panel (Part 2): Fresh Perspectives on SBA Lending Featuring 3 Rising Stars | Ep. 172 The conversation continues! In Part 2 of this special The Art of SBA Lending series, Ray Drew picks up where we left off with Molly Harder, Rob Parkin, and Jane Castro—three rising leaders in SBA lending—to dive deeper into the challenges, innovations, and hard-earned wisdom that define their careers. SBA lending is evolving, and those who adapt will lead the way. In this episode, we discuss the role of mentorship, the impact of AI, and how today’s trends—like rising interest rates and small loan programs—are shaping the future of the industry. Key topics include: • The role of mentorship in long-term career success • The impact of AI and automation on SBA lending—opportunities and concerns • How industry trends like rising interest rates and small loan programs are shaping the future • The need for innovation and how up-and-coming leaders can drive change With candid insights and practical advice from: Molly Harder, SBA Risk Compliance Manager at First Horizon Rob Parkin, SBA Credit Director at Truliant Jane Castro, SBA Portfolio Manager at Fund-Ex Solutions Group If you enjoyed Part 1, you won’t want to miss the rest of this insightful discussion. Whether you’re a veteran in the space or just starting out, this episode offers a forward-looking perspective on where SBA lending is headed—and how to be part of its evolution. This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in line searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to The Director's Retreat Join us May 4-5 in Savannah, Georgia, for an exclusive event tailored to the heads of SBA 7(a) lending programs. This retreat is your chance to collaborate with peers, share insights, and tackle the unique challenges of leading SBA lending programs. Don’t miss out—register now to secure your spot! SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/35170825

NexGen Panel: Fresh Perspectives on SBA Lending Featuring 3 Rising Stars (Part 1) | Ep. 171 01/30/2025

NexGen Panel: Fresh Perspectives on SBA Lending Featuring 3 Rising Stars (Part 1) | Ep. 171 What does it take to rise as a leader in the competitive and ever-changing SBA lending space? In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray Drew is joined by Molly Harder, Rob Parkin, and Jane Castro—three of the brightest up-and-coming leaders in SBA lending—to explore their journeys, challenges, and visions for the future of the industry. SBA lending is complex, but it’s also filled with opportunities to grow, innovate, and leave a lasting impact. Today, we’re diving into how these professionals are navigating career bottlenecks, leveraging mentorship, and balancing the demands of leadership while maintaining strong relationships. Key topics include: Overcoming early challenges and finding inspiration in mentorship The biggest trends shaping SBA lending, from technology to industry shakeups How to foster a collaborative, positive culture in SBA divisions Strategies for balancing production goals with strong client relationships With candid insights and actionable advice from: Molly Harder, SBA Risk Compliance Manager Rob Parkin, SBA Credit Director at Truliant Jane Castro, SBA Lending Professional Whether you’re a seasoned BDO or just beginning your career in SBA lending, this episode offers invaluable perspectives on building a legacy of leadership and innovation in the industry. This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit . Shatterbox Learn how Shatterbox can help you hire and invest in bright young talent without breaking the bank. Go to and set up a discovery call today. SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/35076950

Big Updates from Art of SBA HQ 01/15/2025

The Elon Musk of SBA Lending (Season Finale) feat. Chris Hurn | Ep. 170 12/19/2024

The Elon Musk of SBA Lending (Season Finale) feat. Chris Hurn | Ep. 170 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray Drew sits down with Chris Hurn to explore the complexities of entrepreneurship, leadership, and finance. Chris shares the story of winding down his previous company, Fountainhead, navigating the challenges of partnerships, and transitioning to his latest venture—a business bank in West Georgia. From educating clients about SBA loans to building a team that aligns with company culture, Chris highlights the balancing act between growth, innovation, and risk. He also offers insights into: The risks and rewards of entrepreneurship Effective marketing strategies for the modern business landscape Navigating the competitive world of SBA lending and business acquisitions Join Ray and Chris for a candid conversation about the evolving business world, and gain valuable takeaways for your own journey. Be sure to subscribe to keep up with the rest of our Vegas interview series from NAGGL 2024! This episode is sponsored by: The Content Store The Content Store is a video content agency specialized in podcast, YouTube, and short form video editing. Elevate your brand with premium video content today. Go to to get in touch. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34527695

Largest SBA Loan Service Provider Gets Acquired (again) feat. Mike Breckheimer | Ep. 169 12/12/2024

Largest SBA Loan Service Provider Gets Acquired (again) feat. Mike Breckheimer | Ep. 169 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray sits down with Mike Breckheimer at NAGGL 2024 to discuss the ins and outs of starting a lender service provider (LSP) business and navigating the SBA ecosystem. Mike shares his extensive experience building turnkey solutions for banks, credit unions, and other institutions looking to outsource SBA loan operations. He dives into the intricate balance of compliance, relationship building, and patience required to thrive in this niche industry. Key Highlights: Starting an LSP: Learn the essential steps to establish yourself as a trusted SBA lender service provider, including the necessary regulatory steps with OCRM. Sales Strategies for LSPs: Mike explains the long sales cycle when working with banks and credit unions and how patience was the key during the process. Navigating SBA Oversight: Discover the role of OCRM in reviewing lender service provider agreements and maintaining oversight in the SBA ecosystem. Tech & Innovation in SBA Lending: Explore how emerging technology and data analytics are reshaping the SBA lending landscape. Whether you're an aspiring LSP entrepreneur or a seasoned professional curious about industry trends, this episode is packed with valuable insights on the current state of SBA lending. Don’t miss out on our exclusive NAGGL interview series—subscribe now to catch every episode! This episode is sponsored by: Lumos Data Lumos empowers your small business lending growth with cutting-edge analytics and streamlined applications that optimize your performance. If you're ready to take your small business lending to the next level with cutting edge analytics visit . Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new Art of SBA Website | BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34407015

The Fixer: Managing Risk and Taking Names feat. Brent Ciurlino | Ep. 168 11/28/2024

The Fixer: Managing Risk and Taking Names feat. Brent Ciurlino | Ep. 168 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending Ray is joined by Brent Ciurlino at NAGGL as they unpack Brent’s background in risk management and where he got his reputation as: "the fixer” Brent held significant roles, including the Director of Asset Marketing at the FDIC and several senior positions within SBA-regulated entities. His current position is with Velocity, an SBLC, where he oversees the company's strategic growth and risk management operations. Known for his innovative contributions to SBA oversight mechanisms, he has been instrumental in developing key regulatory frameworks. Moreover, Brent explains his contributions to the development of the OCRM's oversight tools like PARIS and SMARt, and his experiences in guiding multiple SBA-licensed entities through times of economic uncertainty. Key Takeaways: Strategic Growth in SBA Lending: Understand the dynamics of expanding SBA lending operations sustainably and effectively. Navigating Non-Bank Lender Challenges: Explore the pressures and regulatory requirements faced by non-bank lenders in the SBA landscape. Advocating for Risk Management: Learn the importance of balanced risk management in preventing institutional failures. Listen in as Brent and Ray explore the evolving market, the significance of risk management, and insights on navigating SBA's complex regulations. Be sure to subscribe to keep up with the rest of our Vegas interview series from NAGGL 2024! This episode is sponsored by: Baker Lewis Baker Lewis is the SBA lending industry’s premier executive search and personnel consulting firm. Schedule a call by reaching out to Dustin Baker at 940-230-4321. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34192185

SBA Operations: The Backbone of The Industry feat. Jackie Bogdan | Ep. 167 11/21/2024

SBA Operations: The Backbone of The Industry feat. Jackie Bogdan | Ep. 167 This week on The Art of SBA Lending Podcast we have another special guest joining us for an interview live from the NAGGL conference in Vegas. Welcome Jackie Bogdan! We’re getting into all things operations, execution and closing. Tune in now and subscribe to stay in the loop for more episodes! This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in lien searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/34074316

Adding Value to your Team, Your Bank, & Your Borrowers feat. Michael Johnston | Ep. 166 11/14/2024

Adding Value to your Team, Your Bank, & Your Borrowers feat. Michael Johnston | Ep. 166 In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending Ray is joined by Michael Johnston at NAGGL as they explore Michael’s journey from BDO to national sales manager and his approach to driving value at every stage of the SBA lending process. Michael shares his vision of SBA lending in today’s evolving landscape, where efficiency, accountability, and teamwork are non-negotiable. Aiming to streamline small-balance loan processing to as little as 2-5 days, Michael highlights the role of technology, a strong referral network, and consistent credit philosophy. He also provides insight into the qualities he looks for in BDOs—highly motivated “grinders” who are dedicated to getting results. Key Takeaways: Strategic Growth: How Michael leverages digital marketing, a robust broker network, and high-efficiency standards, noting how steady, methodical growth is preferred over rapid expansion that could be difficult to sustain. Team Dynamics: The importance of hiring the right people, fostering a collaborative culture, and maintaining a consistent credit philosophy across the board. Process Efficiency: Practical ways to reduce approval times, enhance productivity, and meet client expectations without sacrificing quality or accuracy. Listen in as Michael and Ray discuss how to bring value to your team, your bank, and your borrowers in this engaging and informative episode. Be sure to subscribe to keep up with the rest of our Vegas interview series from NAGGL 2024! This episode is sponsored by: Baker Lewis Baker Lewis is the SBA lending industry’s premier executive search and personnel consulting firm. Schedule a call by reaching out to Dustin Baker at 940-230-4321. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to SBA Jobs Board Hiring for your SBA department? We’ve got you covered! SBA Jobs Board is here to bridge the gap between you and top SBA talent. Our Art of SBA Lending audience is packed with experts ready for their next career move. List your openings with us to connect with the best in the industry and find the right fit for your team. Live now on our new BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33926832

The Future of the SBA 7a Program feat. Mike Breckheimer, Charles Rho, & Bob Coleman | Ep. 165 11/07/2024

The Future of the SBA 7a Program feat. Mike Breckheimer, Charles Rho, & Bob Coleman | Ep. 165 This week on The Art of SBA Lending we’re bringing you through the evolution of The SBA. What started as a small-scale government program in 1953 has grown into a $35+ billion industry, touching every corner of U.S. business. In this episode, The Art of SBA Lending explores the dynamic story of SBA 7(a) – and the potential paths it might take. Ray and an expert panel of Art of SBA Contributors discuss: ➡️ Reaction to the bold changes of 2023: whether the concerns surrounding the sweeping changes made in 2023, such as the “Do What You Do” policy and new SBLC licenses, were justified or overblown. ➡️ Zero-subsidy model: Ray asks the panel if they think the zero-subsidy model (where the program is funded through fees, not government appropriations) will continue, considering the government’s massive deficits and spending. ➡️ Emerging technologies: The panel shares thoughts on emerging technologies that could transform the SBA lending space. As well as desired and anticipated changes for the industry over the next 5 years and what it’s going to take to stand out. Join Ray Drew, Bob Coleman, Charles Rho, and Mike Breckheimer as they reflect on where SBA 7(a) is headed next. 🎙️ This episode is sponsored by: CORPSMART CORPSMART is a due diligence group that specializes in lien searching, UCC filing, DMV title recordings and more. If you're looking to streamline your process, the CORPSMART team is the best resource, offering a wide range of services, capability to directly integrate with your in-house systems, and the icing on the cake, their over-the-top customer service, making every deal that much easier to close To discuss your due diligence needs visit the CORPSMART website at for more information or to set up a get acquainted call, email McKenna Weiks at - and let them know that the Art of SBA sent you! Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33826492

What It Takes to Create Raving Fans in SBA Lending feat. Charles H Green, Chris Hurn, & Javier Jorge | Ep. 164 10/31/2024

What It Takes to Create Raving Fans in SBA Lending feat. Charles H Green, Chris Hurn, & Javier Jorge | Ep. 164 What does it take to make your borrowers so happy that they can’t stop talking about their experience? In this episode of The Art of SBA Lending, Ray Drew is joined by a panel of SBA lending pros to discuss how to elevate your customer service game and turn borrowers into raving fans. SBA loans can be complex, and the journey to closing is rarely easy. But top producers know that exceptional service isn’t about avoiding obstacles—it’s about guiding your borrower through them with empathy, attention, and solutions. Today, we’re sharing five proven methods that will not only enhance your borrower’s experience but also create lifelong advocates for your services. Key topics include: Why empathy is a game-changer in borrower relationships The power of doing the unexpected to create a lasting impression Aligning your services with borrower needs to generate true loyalty With expert insights from our panel of Art of SBA Contributors: Chris Hurn, SBA Lending Expert Javier Jorge, Director of Government Guaranteed Lending at Locality Bank Charles Green, SVP at Harvest Small Business Finance Whether you’re an established BDO or just starting out, this episode offers invaluable advice for creating the kind of borrower experience that leads to repeat business and enthusiastic referrals. This episode is sponsored by: The Content Store The Content Store is a video content agency specialized in podcast, YouTube, and short form video editing. Elevate your brand with premium video content today. Go to to get in touch. Rapid Business Plans Rapid Business Plans is the go-to provider of business plans and feasibility studies for government guaranteed small business lenders. For more information, or to set up a Get Acquainted call go to BDO’s…let’s start your weeks strong! Sign up for our weekly sales advice series, Sales Ammo. Every Monday morning wake up to a piece of Rays sales advice in your inbox to help you rise to the top. Subscribe here: Loving The Art of SBA Lending episodes? Make sure to follow along with our sister shows, The BDO Show and SBA Today, each week with the links below! Head to for more information and to sign up for our must-read monthly newsletter to stay up to date with The Art of SBA Lending. /episode/index/show/theartofsbalending/id/33699847

The Art of SBA Lending

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