Yoga for Breast Cancer with Nanette Labastida

My colleague and friend Nanette has been leading yoga for breast cancer survivors for the past few years in her community of Austin Texas, even as she's navigated the tough journey of recurrent metastatic disease in her bones. I think you'll love her spirit as she shares her story...

Link to yoga4cancer: https://yoga4cancer.com/

Transcript:

Today's guest is Nanette Labastida. She's in Austin, Texas, and she and I have been ambassadors together for Stand Tall AFC over the years. She is a realtor by trade, and her passion is yoga, which we'll talk about at the end of the interview. But I want to start out by asking Nanette about her background, diagnosis, and current, uh, treatment plans. Welcome Nanette.

Hi, I am so excited to be here and chat with you. So yeah my history, my background diagnosis, I was originally diagnosed in 2010. I was 42, um, with breast cancer and it, it was--back then I didn't really pay that much attention to the words-- but I do know that it was ER/PR positive and HER2 negative. And I had chemo, like four rounds of chemo, no radiation. Um, and I had a mastectomy with implants, you know, with, uh, expanders and then implants. And I did tamoxifen for four years. and then in 2019 I explanted to flat. And so that's when I joined that community. It wasn't necessarily through any. um, implant illness Um, it was more like discomfort and never feeling like myself and knowing that at some point they'd need to be changed out and I'd rather not. I had the ability to do it timing wise and insurance wise--zero regrets. And then in 2022, um, I was diagnosed with, uh, stage four metastatic breast cancer. Um, so it was a recurrence, with mets to few spots in my bones, rib pelvis, and a couple on my spine. I think, um, a collarbone lymph node here, which is really the thing that got me into the oncologist. Thank goodness. And pleural effusion around my lungs. Uh oh. And then I started, uh, treatment at that time I was actually qualified for a, a clinical trial. My doctors did some research immediately and just based on like all the factors of my previous treatment and the type of cancer, all the stuff I, I entered this trial called the Serena--I might not remember the exact name of the trial, but the trial was a blind trial in which I was taking (a CDK4/6) Ibrance, taking two other pills. One was. Anastrozole. The other pill was a new drug called "SERD," or a placebo.

So I would take both of them not knowing if I was getting which med I was getting. So I was getting treatment, I just didn't know which one.

Okay. And it turned out in the end. Now, you just recently found out, uh, that you were on the blind arm of the trial, which means you were only taking a CDK4/6 inhibitor.

It turns out I was not taking the SERD, the new trial drug, which was the blinded. So I was taking anastrozole, so I was on what I'd have been on if I wasn't on the trial, like the standard is like almost everybody or you know, a lot of people, they just do the, the CDK4/6 inhibitor and the AI and that's what I ended up being on for three years, almost three years. I didn't get the trial drug, which I've heard that it might be out later this year--a SERD on the market--an oral SERD. It's, it's, I think you had someone recently talking about fluvestrant and that's a SERD.

Um, so it's kind of less, less quality of life and, and they all work a little differently anyway...

For the sake of listeners who don't know what a SERD is, um, I personally got it mixed up with SERM, which is very similar. So there's selective estrogen receptor modulator. Or a SERD is the newer drug, which is a selective estrogen receptor disruptor. I believe those are the words. 

Degrader. 

Degrader, okay. Thank you. So it's, it's actually degrading the receptor site so that the receptor can't receive estrogen, right? Is that the mechanism? 

That's the mechanism, and so it's similar to an AI's to an aromatase inhibitor, but from a different like angle is what I understand.

Well, it's similar to Tamoxifen, I think. Tamoxifen is a SERM where it's a, um, modulator, so it'll, it'll block the receptor so a SERM sits in the receptor and blocks it from receiving any oth other estrogens where a degrader, I think destroys the actual receptor. I love talking about the science.

I, uh, I, I'm learning more and more, you know, especially 'cause I'm sort of such in the depths of it. And I also, like last year, attended the San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium, um, as a patient advocate. And it, I, I'm so glad I did in this progression because I am so aware now you know, and I can bring them up to my doctor. It was. It I thought it was like too much information, but there's definitely some that like settled.

Awesome. Yeah, me too. I'm, I'm hooked. Yeah. Okay. So tell us about what happened. So you had Mets in 22. Okay. That's when you started the trial right away, when you started with your diagnosis of Mets. So that's three years ago. And then just this year in 2025, you had another. Incident or, um, you know, change in your diagnosis. So tell us what that was like and, and how you understand that now.

Yeah. Um, yeah, this was, um, you know, for people that don't totally know some of the terms, progression is when you've had metastatic cancer, You have it and it's been stable or even no evidence of active activity, cancer activity from your treatment, and then some scan or some results of something shows that it's active again and maybe grown in that area or there's a new area. I had a scan that showed it. Yeah, I had a, um, I had a CT scan, which I was having every three months, and an area in my left pelvis that looked larger, but they, it's where I had mets originally. So they were sort of like hesitant to say, or they couldn't tell, like the CT scan doesn't necessarily show that. It just showed that they were like, they were like, maybe it's just bone degeneration from been affected although, and I had had some like hip pain and I was doing this sort of typical cancer survivor sort of thing of like, "Is this bad? Is it just 'cause I'm working out? Is it 'cause I'm 57???" Is it, you know, you know, or, or is it like alarming? I need to bring it up. And you, you always wanna not bring it up even though you probably should.

And I had gotten to this sort of like. Feeling like, Hmm. It's kind of gotten constant. So, then I got this result then, and that was right before going to YSC, which we'll talk about later.

I had to like go anyway and, um. You know, sort of shelf any worry. And then when I came back, I had my sort of actual doctor's appointment and my tumor marker result, like numbers were up a little bit.

Okay.

I immediately, you know, like you sort of put puzzle pieces together. So I was pretty certain, um, that it, there was progression, but I also had to have a, PET scan scheduled and an MRI of the pelvis. And then I had to delay this appointment, but I also have an appoint, had an appointment with a orthopedic oncologist for X-Ray conversation. I love seeing him. This is my second time and he just gets a little nerdier deeper into the bone structure. Um, I. But he's not my primary oncologist. So yeah, it showed activity in my pelvis, um, in the, uh, I can't remember the scientific term, but it's the back of my pelvis. Um, and there's a hole there. Um, and that's why it hurts.

Oh, wow.

And the rest of the bone is like an eggshell. So I'm a fracture risk. Um, and. I also had to have a biopsy of that, which was it, it was not as bad as I thought, but you know, like that really scared me to go get something from my bone. It's so different than a soft tissue, you know?

Right. A marrow biopsy then?

I think it was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I was, you know, semi like twilight sedated, so it really was like, it was like, oh, you're done? Ok. That's not so bad. Um. And that is to, I, I know there's a lot of tangents on this topic, but there are a lot of tangents in this world, and so it just goes this way. So the reason for the biopsy because of mutations that exist in, um, cancer treatments in cancer. . I think largely as a result of being on treatment, but, you know, can, there's these mutations that can come onto your cancer type that completely change the course of treatment, um, if you have them. Um, and so it's, and that's one thing I truly learned like deeply at San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium--the, the need for this knowledge to figure out your next treatment and not just go, oh, you have progression. We'll just try another version of the same drugs...

Which is what we used to do. 

Um, so, the, while waiting for the results of that, because they're actually still not all the way in, he, my doctor did put me on versions of the other drugs. So I started treatment, I started with, um, another. , CDK four inhibitor, verzenio and then flu tran shots, which is the third that we were talking about--it's a different, different manufacturer and it's in a shot. So it's a different version of this, and different manufacturer. Um, and you know, he's just like, we just wanna get some, you know, some treatment Started. And it was interesting because I had a very difficult time getting Verzenio delivered because of insurance. And this is actually another tangent, but like my insurance is actually quite good and I have, when I meet my deductible, I have a hundred percent medical coverage the rest of the year. So I learned I learned from Ibranz that I can get these drugs classified as a medical benefit. And then they'll be a hundred percent covered instead of a benefit. However, getting everybody to understand that on the same plane is really challenging. For some reason, the insurance actually was the first one to like, approve it for that. But the pharmacy needed lots of information and my doctor's office was like still submitting it as a pharmacy because that's all they know, you know, and, and so I had to keep explaining. So it took a really long time. To get the Verzenio. And I was not too upset about that because side effects are rumored to be pretty bad, um, for some people with diarrhea. And I was just like, oh, I've got a yoga retreat. I've got all these things. Anyway, so it did finally come. Um, and I took it for two and a half days because, and I started the fluvestrant shots, um, because some of the results came in from the bi, from the biopsy. I don't know about mutations yet. Except the one thing, and this is so fascinating and weird in that my, the cancer has, um, evolved and it is no longer hormone positive.

That happens. Yeah.

Yeah there's a small expression of estrogen, no progesterone, and there's a small expression of HER2 now, um, and this is where I am right now. I'm in limbo because. There's a drug called enhertu, which maybe you've talked about in the past? So that's, I technically could qualify for that because of that small, HER2 low. However, there's another marker on this biopsy of all the many things that I've never heard of before. I think I have it written down, that we're still waiting to get in, it's called PDL one. I dunno what it means, but if it's over 10%, then I can be treated as triple negative. And so then that would dictate going on, taking Keytruda. So I don't, you know, like I'm still waiting. It's, so I immediately stopped Fluvestrant and, and Verzenio. So now I'm not on any treatment, which again, I'm weirdly peaceful about. 

As long as you're peaceful, that's the main thing. Yeah.

doesn't gimme anxiety. I'm just sort of, I, we could talk about this in depth if you want, but it just helps me double down on, on my emotional and spiritual, um, I. and, and, and peace and you know, like refocus on nutrition and, and just sort of overall health, you know, because you, weirdly, even with stage four cancer, having like good results, you can get really complacent in a lot of things... you would think it would be a constant reminder, but you just wanna, the body, I think human nature is just, um, builds wire to like, just get back to. Your old normal and it's easy to push huge trauma aside if you're feeling kind of normal. 

And probably if you have good mentors that teach you that, it's not the end of the world like you Have you had good mentors in the metastatic community to tell you that? Life goes on, and actually my biggest mentor is the book Radical Remission. I'll have, you know, like I, I listened to it. We listen to it a lot, you know, like, that just reminds me that there's all sorts of different situations in the world and, and there's different ways to, to handle it. And there's an option for everybody to, to handle. I feel like healing my life in ways is more important than thinking about healing cancer can exist from a day-to-day basis in a beautiful way. 

Mm. Well I wanna talk about yoga, but before we go into that, I wanted to hear a little bit about the CT scans. 'cause that was shocking to me when you said you get them every three months, that's a lot of radioactivity. Every three months. Do you get full body CT scans or is it more isolated?

It's like neck area and then, um, like from here to hips

And is that just since your progression or has that been since 2022?

It's been since 2022. And I another thing I actually don't know. It's a good question to ask. I don't know if that protocol was trial protocol or

Oh, okay. Okay. That makes sense that it would be the trail because they'd wanna see, although. Oh, maybe because it's blinded. Like if you're not taking the drug, the trial drug, then why do they need to look? But because it's blinded, you and the doctor are probably both blinded to the fact that you're, weren't on the drug, it's double blind. So then you would get the CT scans as if you were on the drug. Wow.

Yes, and every three months was, you know. Blood, like my blood work was like, uh, the, the kit, you know, so it was like vials and vials and vials of blood that they sent off. So yeah, there was, there was their monitoring of that.

That's like the, the side, the negative side effect of being in such a good quality trial. Uh, double-blinded is, is the best kind of trial to do. But then you get maybe over, over scanned or overtreated in some ways. 

me. But then I'm also like, well then how we wouldn't have found the progression that time. You know, there's, there's pros and cons to being over scanned in a way, you know, like, because to think of like, what if it would've been six months? And I, and I was just thinking I had hip pain and I didn't go to the doctor 'cause that was the kind of person I was or something, you

Yeah, you found it right away because you were having those scans. That's true. Wow. Well, that's mind blowing.

It's mind blowing. It's like it's, there's, it's, that is why working on your, like mental health or your state of, of existing is the most important. Because if I let all of these confusing things derail me, then I would be frozen in everything and I would be upset about the scans, or I would be upset about not having the scans or, you know, and I'd be confused and, and I am still confused, but I, but I, um, I. know, work on letting the confusion just exist. And then I just keep going and I work on trust, you know, spiritual trust or, you know, my higher power. And that's like, that was hard to get back after the progression because it's uh, you know, it's kind of like a f you, but you know, it was just, you have to do whatever it takes in, in your own way, you know.

So other than the book that you mentioned, what else has been. Guiding you or who else has been guiding you through in, in that sense, in, in terms of your, your mental game over these last few years?

You know, I, I'm, yoga is definitely a big part of that. The text of yoga and the philosophies of yoga, you know, really with these things. And, you know, so I have a strong meditation practice. I follow a lot of spiritual teachers. Like I really, really love Gabby Bernstein. She's like, you know. Always really like gotten me through a lot of stuff. Listening to speakers and I went to like a Hay House conference and that was really, like one of the best experiences I ever had. You know, just seeing all these teachers that I had in real life talking and, you know, really lifting me up. That was good. And, then things like, like for example at that conference, it was in Phoenix and I just took myself to the botanical gardens one day. and I'm like, oh, this is something I love. You know, like I was just like walking around like, in wonder of beauty and nature, and I don't, you know, I live in a city, we have nature here, but like, I don't partake that much. And, and so like, you know, just discovering different, different things that are, that are healing. And, one of my prayers I guess, um, every day, or ever since this whole, since me Mets diagnosis is just being like open to receiving. Different forms of healing and knowing the discernment of whether they're for me or not. And that could mean walking in nature, or it could mean mean some weird herb, you know, like, , I'm not angry when people suggest weird stuff to me, like maybe I used to be, or like many people are because it's something going out into the world that was meant to be said to me. And I'll figure out whether it's like, thank you. And in my mind, like, I'll never touch that, or for some reason that sounds interesting, you know, I'll look into it. So I just, you know, yeah. Openness, receiving and discernment or the sort of filter of, of healing for me.

I love that. I love your description of that. It's. It's not too woo woo. It's you're just talking about intuitive, uh, wisdom. 

Yeah, like when you know something. And it's because, you know, the cancer world is an odd place to swirl in, you know, spiritual stuff. 'cause you're gonna come across all the different things, um, you know, alternative things and, so. I don't wanna be closed off to anything. I just wanna do what feels right.

We have some really top-notch oncologists and, and I think mine is amazing. And, and he's, you know, like knows of all the trials and he's just a kind person and I love him.

Did they have an integrative oncology department? 

Like do they, no. And it's even getting worse. Like they just stopped their physical therapy, uh, program.

Oh, no.

Yeah, so that is, that, that is a big lack. And so that stuff has to be sought out yourself and paid for, you know. And a place here called, cancer rehab, and, integrative medicine, and they have acupuncture and physical therapy and exercise and various other things, you know, but it's, you know, they don't take insurance, so you have to, you have to figure that out.

So how does your oncologist feel about you taking herbs and other things? It seems like it would be kind of way more intense in that setting--in the metastatic setting--for you to bring up those options to your oncologist.

Yeah, while I was on the trial, I really couldn't do anything.

Okay.

Uh, you know, I, I'll look up something, you know, I, I, I know like on a CDK 4/6 inhibitor, I know that St. John's wart isn't, isn't. And grapefruit, you know, so like. Finding that out myself. I had a herbal coffee sort of elixir powder that had St. John's Wart. So I was like, oh, I can't take that anymore. You know, so I'm using, I'm, again, discernment and a little bit of research to just trust what's right myself, you know?

I feel like too, in the metastatic setting, you almost have a little bit more authority over your life. You're, you're in that stage where you're like, Hey, my, my days are numbered and I'm going to, I'm going to claim the power over my life. Like I've seen a lot of patients act that way in the metastatic setting too. It's, it is, it's like, and, and you know, that actually is one of the factors in radical remission is, other, other people call it, it a different thing, like being the CEO of your, of your care and, um, you know, and so that either could mean standing up to your doctor and saying things or using that discernment and intuition and, some, and some self-education and knowledge and figuring out what's best. You know, it's just, but you do, you have to kind of forge your own path, I think, when you have metastatic.

Definitely. Yeah. And some of the principles that you're talking about, mind body principles are really, you know, they go across the lines of, of cancer patients and your average everyday stressed out American. Like they're not something that's unique to us as cancer patients. So, but you did, in contrast to that, you did choose to start a program just for cancer patients.

Tell us about that.

Um, yoga, I teach yoga for cancer patients, and I actually am also certified as a, as a coach. I haven't been pursuing that, that angle as much. Because it just, you know, it's, I also am a realtor. Everything, everything's busy. Um, but also, I just need to point out, I haven't said this yet, but because of this progression, I can't actually practice yoga right now.

Oh wow.

I'm, I'm having a lot of grief about that.

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah.

And so, I mean, I have faith that it'll come back, but it's been, but that's been really hard to not. And the, and the movement of so many yoga poses, which would be lunges and bending at the hip, um, are the exact movements that compromise the back of the pelvis. So, there's just, you know, I, yeah, there's just like, almost I can go to the gym and lift weights, know, so I'm, I'm moving and I'm like, you know, like I'm, I'm working through that. But, if I went to a class, I would be doing like probably an eighth of it or, or a 16th of it. Um, so that's been hard. But I can still teach my Yoga4cancer, so I took a, I took a yoga training in 2013 with the idea of doing this, but I never followed through of, of really, I taught a few classes, but it was difficult. when I had the metastatic diagnosis, I renewed that, that passion and vision, and I took a training that I'd always wanted to take, , called Y 4 C, yoga for Cancer, the number four. , and it's founded by this woman named And she wrote a book and she developed this training. , and it is very science backed and oncology based. Um. And all, you know, and then also community based because it's, you know, well, not every teacher actually is a yoga is a cancer survivor, but many are.

And, and so I feel, so for me, that's one of the biggest aspects is creating a community in the, in the room, with me, you know, as part of a community so I did that training online and, yeah. And so now I'm teaching regularly once a month in Austin, a free class that I'm able to do thanks to a studio that donates it once a month. And a nonprofit called Moving Beyond Cancer Collaborative, who offer exercise and, and, and wellness, to cancer survivors. And so that means I get paid, which is lovely, and I get to offer it for free. So that's one of the ways where I do it. Um, and then I'm also, . Starting to teach and open to teaching at, uh, retreats and conferences like, , the Young Survival Coalition that I did in April or March. So, , and that, that I think is probably my biggest joy right now is being invited, and going to do things in big groups, sharing. ...I was, you know, dubious or. Didn't know really what a yoga training would be like online, but it was very, it's very, it's very well done. I loved it.

It's very well thought out. It's, you know, the poses are all with, various side effects, and any compromises in mind. And it's also not gentle yoga. Like, it's not restorative yoga or like you, you're, you have cancer, you should just relax.... It's vinyasa yoga, it's movement. It just uses a lot of props to make the movement more accessible especially if you're in a class where you had a lot of people you really didn't know, everyone's , different things. It's nice when you do know and then you can kind of change stuff. So, there's a lot of like, I almost always have like a side effect that I'll address in a class.

So you can talk about lymphedema and lymph health and we can talk about bone health and or stress and, you know, , there's just like, it's just. But everything kind of works on everything. But sometimes there'll be a class that's more focused on a particular side effect. And then there's some poses that we just don't even do, like, , most forward folds because in case someone's had like deep flap, you know, and they've got, or it doesn't have to be breast cancer, they could have another kind of cancer. They had a surgery down, you know, on their abdomen be compromised there. So many, so many factors. Yeah it's, I'm very conscious of all of the side effects and things that could, so you can actually do it when you're in treatment or right out of surgery?

Okay. Okay. So you went to a separate training to do that? More accommodated kind...

Okay. And how many of your, uh, yoga practitioners that are in your classes are breast cancer survivors, would you say, or do you even know? You probably don't even ask what their cancer is...?

All of them, but two. Yeah, I know most of the people that, that come, uh, 'cause I, I've been in the breast cancer world for so long here in Austin, so I'm pretty active in the, in the , yeah, I think there, there's one woman that's a ovarian, two that are ovarian cancer, , survivors, but everyone else is breast cancer. It is open to others, but that's just how it is. You know, I guess folks see my posts about it, you know, it's hard to get the word, we try, but...

I have a room upstairs that needs to be. Cleared out so I can make a beautiful space and teach online. I really, in my heart. Um, because then I could reach anybody, you know?

And, um, I think that that would be amazing. So yeah, that's one of my goals.

Yeah. I didn't even think about that until just now.

Had you been to YSC before you went there as a yoga teacher?

Um, I had been to one of the wellness conferences when it was here in Austin, um, actually right when I had the metastatic diagnosis, I think. Um, and maybe one before that, I can't remember.

And YSC for the listeners is Young Survival... Young Survival Coalition. Is that correct? Okay,

Mm-hmm. And it, so it's for folks under the age of 40,

Oh, is it just women?

You know. No, it's not. There was a man. 

Um, uh, so I went to the wellness one and it was really, really lovely and, um. I have a lot of friends there and I, I have a friend that does the sound healing at almost all of their conferences and she lives here. Uh, and um, so she encouraged me to, apply and it was, I. It was. So yes, I got the, I, I was scheduled to teach two yoga classes, but I also got to speak about yoga to the metastatic tracks. There's a, they had, they, um, and I don't know if that's new or not, but they have, they had like a whole, like in the, you know, the choosing of your workshops or, breakouts during the day. There was a track for metastatic and that was just, you know, I think that's just so important because. You know, we are all the same. We've all had the same day of being diagnosed with breast cancer, then there's just this other level and a level of understanding that looks like that is, it makes me real emotional just to think that we're all just walking around with this diagnosis that's so heavy and so there is some conversations that really can only. Deeply be had with each other and really understood. And then there's also, we don't have to be as guarded, because I'll be honest, sometimes it, you know, I, I know that it's scary to think about me as you--I don't wanna be guarded. And I try not to be, because I think it's important to speak about everything, but it, it's in, it's in my mind sometimes a filtering, you know? And so you can just be completely unguarded about that when you're all metastatic, you know? And. Some of these women are so young, and so having that be also the sort of demographic of young people with metastatic being able to hang out together, in the different, and, and then having some of the older ones in there too, just because in it's years of living with it and, you know, so there's a lot of hope and inspiration and it is, it was special. Um, so I hope I get to, to go again and, and do it for all their things. . And teaching the yoga was really, it was probably my biggest class, so that was fun too. and it was very affirming for my, goals. You know, like you always feel insecure when you're doing something new-ish. And then to get such a great feedback from people. And so I felt good about myself afterwards. It was just lovely. So, yeah.

What would you share with someone that is just slightly curious and, and being kind of led or called to, uh, a position like yours with, um, doing yoga that's accommodating for cancer patients? What would be the first step? To teach it.

Yeah. I mean, I would, look up y4c.org, I think it's dot org. They're a nonprofit. You know, there's some free videos online and you can, so you can see how they use props for their classes and, you know, so see if that's something you'd wanna do. And I actually don't know if you need to be certified with 200 before getting that. I mean, if it's an actual, barrier to teaching yoga. Like the, the 200 hours is not a legal thing necessarily. There is an organization that monitors that, but like, I mean, honestly, original yoga teachers are just people that did yoga and then shared it. , You know, if it's important to the studio you might wanna work in then, then maybe, but think you can take Y4C. It's a, it's a 75 hour.

I think you can take it without a 200. I'm not entirely sure. That's something to look into. but I would encourage any, you know, anyone to look into it because it should, it should be everywhere. You know, it would be lovely if it was offered everywhere, at every town and easily offered, at every studio it's, it's hard to get a class established. Um, you know, just 'cause it's hard to get the word out. I don't, I don't know. I don't know why it is. 

Well, cancer has been kind of secretive. I feel like, you know, can't the cancer diagnosis up until our time, up until this generation, we've been really secretive about, especially breast cancer. I think just shame and, uh, privacy being the norm, 

Yes, so, true because if you go to a class that's called that you're probably gonna talk about it. And so maybe some people feel reserved too. And that's kind of one of the things I also wanna change. You know, I want people to, I wanna talk about it. Like we, and that's another thing in Y4C training is we say cancer all the time. We'll say like, yeah, cancer sucks. And so like, I'm so glad we're here to like, you know. Do something for ourselves. And so it's not, it's not, we don't just sort of come in and like, ignore cancer and just do yoga. It's like, it's the conversation. It's open and I really like that. And, and yeah, maybe people feel shy, but on the other hand it's would be so. It's empowering because you, I understand feeling shy going into a regular yoga class and going up to the teacher and saying, I did this because there was no yoga for cancer. And saying, look, I just finished cancer treatment, so uh, I'm gonna be doing this in the back of the room. Or if, you know, you know, I can't do this. And I was really outspoken about myself, but that's. Not the norm. You know, many people would feel a lot of shame and embarrassment to like make a spectacle. It's not really a spectacle, but, you know, make something of themselves to go up and stand out like that so that they can have an accommodation in a regular class. So, um, you know, if they can come to a yoga for cancer class and they don't have that, and then maybe they'll learn some tricks and confidence and can just go into a regular class and take care of themselves in the, within that, that regular class. Which is what I had to teach myself to do.

Mm-hmm. I can relate to that as someone that goes to Pilates who has lots of neck and arthritis kind of problems. I have to do half of the things differently when I show up and like, it just disobey the, the commands of the teacher.

And that takes some balls! There's some yoga classes that, that feel like that you have to do that, you know, and, and, or people think that, you know. So to create a a, an environment where everyone feels comfortable to advocate for themselves, um, or to learn how to then advocate for themselves in the, in another type of class, I think is really great and important. Yeah.

Yeah. So you, you spoke a little bit about some of the benefits, mind body benefits, um, but what would you say is like the crystallized both personal and maybe clinical benefit from your perspective of what you do in the yoga class? Yeah.

So, um, there is a, I'm gonna not remember numbers, but there is a recommendation from the, I think American Cancer Society about amount of minutes of exercise that,, is helpful for preventing, Recurrence or cancer, you know, the, the cancer survivor should do. And it's vinyasa, a movement, yoga class counts towards that. So getting your movement in is one of the just main benefits of being there. And so, and so physically just moving, building strength and building bone density because it is a, , many of the poses are weightbearing. And so you're building bone density, which is a huge concern for, um, many breast cancer survivors. And, um, helping your lymphatic system with movement, , because the lymph system doesn't pump itself. And so movement is the only way to, to get it going. And yoga is incredible for that. And then, you know, emotionally it is, you know, the, the breathing and the being, the body awareness. You know, there's a meditation before and just the, the, the words that, that a teacher can use. So with bringing in some sort of, I don't know, philosophies or thought processes of like self-love and, and self-compassion and, and, you know. Uh, being steady through this chaos of cancer and all this stuff, all the, all those things can, can bring you calm and lower and, they actually lower your nervous system, you know, and, and simulate the vagus nerve, which is the calming, , and lower your cortisol and all that stuff.

And so that can help with sleep, which then goes back to physical, you know, there's just, it's sort of, it's all intertwined--there's just like, unless you have like a big hole in your pelvis, like me, there's no non-benefits for it. Um, and even I could figure out something, you know, like maybe I need to spend some time on my mat and like make up a, a series of things that I can do that's comfortable right now.

How did you find your first couple of, , . Uh, I, I don't know what to, I called them practitioners before, but that's not probably the students. Thank you. Okay. How did you find them? Did you advertise or put a Facebook group up?

Yeah, I, um, I, I have a Facebook group and then I have my Instagram like glitter every day. Um, and the, the, so the, and the Moving Beyond Cancer Collaborative, I'm friends with all those people 'cause I've been like going to some of their classes and having acupuncture with them. And, and so they promote it too, and they put 'em in their newsletters. But it's been mostly, mostly just sort of like personal outreach. Um, you know, and I, I, I, to brainstorm like it, I tried, I had flyers up at Texas Oncology in my, at my office for a while, and people did, no one came from it, but people would say, I saw your picture. So, you know, like, I haven't done that. I need to, that would be a great thing, is to put more flyers up. I find more places to put flyers up. I mean, , that's somewhere where I probably could use a little bit of, uh, more brainstorming and more effort is finding the people. Uh, I just am like, I, I said, I'm so well connected in the, the survivorship world here with support groups. We also have a group called, uh, breast Cancer Resource Center of Austin. And, you know, I have shared in our Facebook groups there, , and. They might have me actually, we have a one day metastatic retreat every year, and I'm hoping that I'll teach yoga at that, this coming year and yeah, word, word of mouth spreading around to my people.

That's so great. Yeah. It's, it's inspiring to see little sprouts of healing open and, and start and grow all over our country, you know, just to be turned onto these little movements that means so much to each individual patient that's a part of them. So thank you for what you're doing.

Oh, you are welcome. Yeah, I wanna spread it. I've even thought about asking if I could teach something at San Antonio. Do you go to San Antonio

I do. Yeah, yeah,

of the patient advocates are survivors, so like I was thinking about, I don't know who to reach out to, but reaching out for one in one of those big rooms to teach yoga.

Yeah, the, the Advocate lounge might be too crowded, but they might be able to get another room. I mean, the rooms are empty half the time.

It's such a huge convention center.

Yeah, that's such a great idea. And we need that. We need to be together even more than we already are when we're having lunch and networking. 'cause not all of us really love to be verbally networking all the time. Especially like, you know, introverts, you're there to learn and so you're saving all of your energy, you're physical energy just to soak up all the knowledge. And so for me it's like I have to limit my networking time, or I'll just like fall flat on the floor of exhaustion.

Or if you're one of the people that has a booth...

Which I am. Yeah. I have to limit that too. But yeah, yoga would be restorative.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna, I'll find an email of someone and, and see what I can do!

I'll help you. I'll help you do that. Yeah, that would be good. Thank you.

Adds a whole other element to like the in, you know, the integrative part, like bringing some awareness. I mean, you know, maybe a doctor would've come in and go as well? 

Oh, I'd love that. We'd see which doctors are open to all things, you know, like you just wanna find those doctors so badly sometimes.

Yeah. The allies. Yeah. Cool. Well, I always ask my interviewees if they have, uh, a little bit of advice around. What they would want to have known at the beginning of their journey, either for you, either at the very beginning or at the time of your recurrence with Mets. Uh, what would you like to tell your younger self now if you could?

Oh God. That's really heavy because I wanna kind of go back to my first diagnosis, but I don't want it to be a bunch of regrets, you know? I would've gotten metastatic, if I'd done anything different. Like, you know, like I can't, I can't know that I do. I think. Both times I would just like, not like a negative warning, but just like a, like, um, bit more education or knowledge on the possibilities of cancer coming back or changing, you know, like I think it's good to be naive in some ways because otherwise you can't live in fear. But I think there's, there's just, I think the conversation around the possibility of. Of recurrence is, is, it could, could be done better with, I don't know how yet, because it is scary. But like, you know, talk about it, about the possibilities and reality of it. Not for everyone, I'm not scaring anyone, but that it is, you know, something that, that, that is, just be more talked about somehow.

Well, and just your being here is that bridge right there. Like just you're telling your story, I think is such a powerful movement in that direction. Like for me, I never. I met anyone with Mets, and I was, I became scared of mets because I, it was such a, like foreign concept to me. I would hear people refer to it in podcasts and, you know, different things. Um. But then when meeting someone with Mets who has a life, who is not living in fear, who is confidently going forward and doing their work in the world like yourself, is what we need to see. You know? Okay. That's possible and that's possible. Like we, we could get that diagnosis, which is scary, but also we can live a really powerful life with it.

because I would say ev I had some friends with Mets, and I'm a sh appalled, not appalled, shocked at how much, I wasn't even aware of what was going on with them. Like, the terminologies and things, you know, because probably I didn't want to, you know, and to, 'cause I would think, oh, if that happened to me, I would just be devastated. That would just be it. I'd be like, like, there's just no way I could exist. You know, like, so I didn't think about it because that's how I thought about it. And this is kind of sad, but one of my, one of my most beautiful, amazing, best friends passed away in 2021. And I recently did something kind of odd in that I looked at her name on Facebook in the Mets group that I'm in now and saw all of her old posts, you know, which I weren't privy to at the time 'cause I wasn't in that group then. So I saw her use these terms that I'm so, so familiar with now, and I saw her talk about like a drug and then asking maybe a side effect. And I'm like, I had no idea that this was going on with her. I didn't know she had these thoughts and these questions and these, you know, this knowledge. And I didn't even actually know where her mets were, for God's sakes. I call her my best friend, you know? Um. Because I just didn't wanna know, and I just was like, you know, I'd rather just be ladi da. Are we, are we still able to hang out? You know, like, like that's just my protect protector, which I think we all have. And, and, and I, I regret that I would've loved to have sat and talked with her about all that stuff and learned or listened and been there more for her, you know, not, but maybe she also protected me from it because I didn't have mets like I do with other, know. Early stage people, um, maybe she didn't want to scare me and you know, 'cause she, she would wanna say, this isn't gonna happen to you, Nannette, or something, you know, so it was just, it was really an interesting moment to like, go back and look back at all those posts from her and see what she was going through parallel to when I knew her. And now that I'm going through those things, you know,

Yep, yep. It's amazing that you can access that. It's a gift that you can access that hopefully it's not too, negative.

No, it was hard, but it was also a gift. It was beautiful. You

Yeah.

it was, and it's been this many years that I could've even done it. Like I, you know, I still don't like to look at our texts. You know, um, and that's the whole other is like dealing with grief of losing friends. 'cause that happens.

Yeah.

so, but yeah, I think that's it. I think it's the conversation about, about it. As a reality and to not be so afraid of it so that you can continue to live, not fearing getting stage four, but not ignoring it.

Yeah, I think we need, and we'll probably find more language around these kinds of conversation. Um. Because even young people nowadays, some of them do like to re remain anonymous and private about their diagnosis details, but more and more of us in our forties and fifties and, and certainly folks who are younger, are completely unabashed and out in the open wanting all the help and support they can get. And so we need to know how to ask permission, to get that personal with folks and we, we probably haven't built those words or tools or language yet.

That's, that is actually it. We just haven't built it yet, but it, it will come. And, um, you know, um, because I, I just wanna sort of touch back on something when I talk about like, people being aware of it and not being afraid of it, and it, this isn't to like teach any sort of like prevention methods.

Like, oh, you should be aware of it so that you can live like this to not get it because that. People can do X and get it and not get it, and people can do Y and get it and not get it. You know? Not the reason to, to be aware of it is a reality to like, try and make sure you don't get it.

I agree. Yeah.

'cause that, that, that's your own personal journey. You wanna, you wanna do the things to prevent it, that you think work, do them because that'll make you happy. You know, as long as you're not doing them within that fear, know? Oh, if I, if I have one piece of chocolate, you know, my life is ruined. You know, there's, there's, there's the balance, a really deep, but that's my whole that's my whole point for that. It's just to, to, to be able to live your life freely and to know how to handle things and wonder if they happen.

Yep. And with the knowledge, I'll just say this too, like personally, I believe that science has not found any conclusive ways, you know, obviously science hasn't, but, um, also the alternative medicine industry or community hasn't found any viable ways to avoid getting recurrence or mets. So, there's no way to, there's no way to capture any truth because the truth hasn't been found. So there's no secret out there that's, that's hiding from the majority of us.

Mets. People have said this. I don't think, I don't, I don't pretty sure I didn't make it up, but one of the things that. Definitely like is important to me or the wording I use and it, and it should, I would like this for everybody is that it's, and I might have said it earlier, but it's healing my life more than healing cancer. You know, it's like, so if you can. have to try to do that when you get a mets diagnosis.

Mm-hmm.

That would be great. Find your purpose and, you know, and, and, and live these things. Like, like, like the sort of example is like, you know, the dresses that still have tags on them. know, like, what if I died before I wore them? You know, like, like just, that's just a trivial--you know, it's like, like every day is fancy or every day is And it's, it's, it's. It's so cliche and it's so true. Um, so yeah.

Well, thank you Nanette. I really value you coming and telling your story while you're in the middle of this difficult mystery. Uh, my friend Danyel also did this the same. She came on right after her Mets diagnosis and it was really, really emotional and we didn't get too deep into the emotion, but I know the emotion is there and I feel it with you and I admire you for swimming through it in, in public like this.

Thank you. Yeah, I hadn't never envisioned that that's something that I would do. And especially in this current, yeah. Like I'm still in the confusion mystery. I don't, I don't know. I don't know what my treatment will be

Yeah. Yeah.

So, but I'm here. Yeah. I'm here to share my heart!

Well, thank you and, and I look forward to. Uh, chatting with you this, this fall about how things go in Austin and you're gonna try to table at your local walks and we'll be in touch about that, which is always fun.

Yeah, it's gonna be, it'll be powerful. Tabling has been so amazing. I just, I just can't get over how good it is to have conversations, not just to be seen by each other at a breast cancer walk, but to talk with those who really need to talk about their bodies 

Yeah, because they do--at the walks they come up and talk to you, and it's a brief thing, like, oh, I, I'm flat too. I just don't, I could never walk like that, you know? Now they can actually come up to and stay for a minute, have a real conversation. 

Yes, they have permission to have a conversation, and it's been so amazing the conversations that we've had, and I know that you're gonna be so great at that. So thank you for that.

You are welcome.

Talk to you then.

Yeah. Sweet. All right.