STEM-Ability: Designing a Future Where Everyone Fits

Welcome to the debut of STEM-Ability, a brand-new series from The Odyssey of Care. In this episode, we sit down with Dr. John Fife, Director of the Center for Innovation in STEM Education at Virginia Commonwealth University, to explore a new and ambitious five-year initiative.

As the workforce shifts rapidly in the age of AI, how do we ensure students with disabilities aren't just included, but empowered to thrive? Dr. Fife and host Erin Croyle discuss the intersection of innovation, vocational rehabilitation, and the vital role that lived experience plays in shaping systemic change. Whether you are a parent, educator, or student, join us as we explore how this groundbreaking project is turning evidence-based research into real-world opportunity.

What you’ll learn:

• How to prepare for the "moving target" of the future job market.

• The essential role of vocational rehabilitation in the modern STEM and education/workforace landscape as a whole.

• Why your voice matters—and how you can help shape this research in real-time.

SHOW NOTES: 

Learn more about:

Center for Innovation in STEM Education or CISTEME

 Dr. John Fife

VCU RRTC: Rehabilitation Research and Training Center

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT: 

01;00;13;23 - 01;00;16;25
Erin Croyle
Welcome to the Odyssey of Care.

01;00;16;28 - 01;00;19;10
Erin Croyle
I'm Erin Croyle, the creator and host.

01;00;19;13 - 01;00;22;00
Erin Croyle
The Odyssey is the same as it ever was,

01;00;22;03 - 01;00;24;18
Erin Croyle
just with a slightly shorter name.

01;00;24;21 - 01;00;27;25
Erin Croyle
This podcast explores how our lives change

01;00;27;28 - 01;00;30;15
Erin Croyle
when a loved one has a disability.

01;00;30;18 - 01;00;36;13
Erin Croyle
was lucky enough to head down this less traveled road when my first child was born with down syndrome in 2010.

01;00;36;16 - 01;00;40;14
Erin Croyle
At the time, I was a journalist working in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

01;00;40;17 - 01;00;46;18
Erin Croyle
My career and life shifted dramatically after Arlo and his two siblings entered the picture.

01;00;46;21 - 01;00;49;00
Erin Croyle
Now I'm a communication specialist

01;00;49;03 - 01;00;52;05
Erin Croyle
determined to help people with disabilities and their families

01;00;52;08 - 01;00;56;03
Erin Croyle
get the help, support and validation they

01;00;56;06 - 01;00;59;21
Erin Croyle
This podcast explores the triumphs and hardships we face.

01;00;59;24 - 01;01;04;17
Erin Croyle
We celebrate the joys that the odyssey of parenting, caregiving, and disability bring.

01;01;04;20 - 01;01;08;10
Erin Croyle
we don't shy away from the tough

01;01;08;12 - 01;01;12;19
Erin Croyle
Few things are more challenging than navigating through the school system

01;01;12;22 - 01;01;14;28
Erin Croyle
the transition to adulthood.

01;01;15;01 - 01;01;18;29
Erin Croyle
This episode is the first in our Stem ability series,

01;01;19;03 - 01;01;22;28
Erin Croyle
which is doing a deep dive into an exciting new initiative

01;01;23;01 - 01;01;28;18
Erin Croyle
to improve employment outcomes for people with disabilities through evidence based training,

01;01;28;20 - 01;01;30;14
Erin Croyle
emerging technologies,

01;01;30;16 - 01;01;32;29
Erin Croyle
strategic employer partnerships.

01;01;33;02 - 01;01;37;27
Erin Croyle
This series has something for everyone students, professionals, parents, caregivers, educators.
The list goes on and on.

01;01;40;15 - 01;01;44;08
Erin Croyle
Joining me today to break this all down is Doctor John

01;01;44;11 - 01;01;47;17
Erin Croyle
associate research professor of Stem education

01;01;47;19 - 01;01;51;12
Erin Croyle
director of the center for innovation in Stem Education

01;01;51;15 - 01;01;57;12
Erin Croyle
at Virginia Commonwealth University.

01;01;57;15 - 01;01;59;16
Erin Croyle
Doctor Fife, welcome.

01;01;59;19 - 01;02;00;15
John Fife
Thank you.

01;02;00;21 - 01;02;06;10
Unknown
I'm so excited to talk to you about this initiative, but I want to start with your origin story.

01;02;06;12 - 01;02;08;01
Erin Croyle
Your bio is so impressive.

01;02;08;04 - 01;02;11;21
Erin Croyle
you've studied at VCU, which is of course in Richmond, Virginia,

01;02;11;23 - 01;02;22;23
Erin Croyle
you've got your undergrad degrees in Boston, one of my favorite cities. Your work deals with so much intersectionality. Can you start by sharing a bit about how you landed where you are today?

01;02;22;25 - 01;02;47;29
Erin Croyle
Thank you so much, Erin, and it's good to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Yeah. So currently, as you mentioned, the director of the center for innovation and Stem education, what we call systemic and the mission of our center really is to reach the missing millions by creating in the disciplinary research, outreach and training opportunities so that students can really develop their knowledge and skills to enhance the Stem workforce.

01;02;48;00 - 01;02;50;11
John Fife
What we're also very interested

01;02;50;13 - 01;03;10;27
John Fife
in providing professional development training to teachers, to folks who work with kids who've been marginalized so that they can receive some of the hands on skills that they they need so that they can be more innovative in the Stem space if they so desire. So that's a little bit more of my Thailand, what I do right now.

01;03;10;27 - 01;03;35;18
John Fife
And I think we'll get a little bit more into students with disabilities and how we do that. But yeah, it's very interesting. I mentioned my background. I was born and raised in Trinidad and Tobago and educated at UMass Boston, where I studied psychology and African American studies in the earliest part of my career. So my work has always been centered around marginalized people.

01;03;35;23 - 01;04;04;06
John Fife
And eventually I did more work on health, education, health equity before my more most current work in educational psychology as it relates to educational inequity. And so that's where the center came in. That's where me going from a historically black college or university to VCU came in and working a lot more with educational inequity.

01;04;04;09 - 01;04;10;08
Erin Croyle
a that's amazing because it feels like it's the absolute perfect background for what you're doing.

01;04;10;10 - 01;04;15;13
Erin Croyle
wanted to know, how much does your lived experience inform your work?

01;04;15;15 - 01;04;37;09
John Fife
That's a great question. You know, I think that, like I mentioned, I also always had a proclivity to focus on people who have been disadvantaged. And in the early part of my career, that was primarily in the issue on the issue of race and ethnicity. And I started to learn more about kids with disabilities from friends that I had.

01;04;37;09 - 01;04;38;26
John Fife
And then,

01;04;38;28 - 01;05;05;07
John Fife
you know, eventually it all hit home when we diagnosed one of our kids with ADHD. And it was very interesting because before that period, I would try to support my friends. You know, we would have discussions about their kids, but it was always that that's that kid and that parent who are friends of mine. And when it hits home, it becomes, of course, very personal.

01;05;05;09 - 01;05;38;20
John Fife
And all of a sudden it's like, wow, how are these parents actually surviving and how are they helping their kids to thrive in an environment that doesn't seem very focused on kids with disabilities? And so an area that was very intellectually based for me became an area that was very personal for me. And so I started paying a lot more attention to research on ADHD, on the needs of kids, the needs of their parents.

01;05;38;20 - 01;05;53;19
John Fife
How do parents create community? So that became a real passion of mine and really began writing more grants and partnering more with researchers who were focusing on kids who have disabilities.

01;05;53;22 - 01;06;07;23
Erin Croyle
It's really interesting that you say that because I have three kids and all of them have disabilities. Two of them have ADHD. One of them has down syndrome, ADHD. You know, all sorts of medical complexities, hearing loss.

01;06;07;23 - 01;06;18;29
Erin Croyle
And much like you, I you know, you don't know until you know. So you you don't know until you become a parent and then you don't know until you come a parent of a kid that might have,

01;06;19;03 - 01;06;20;07
Erin Croyle
dynamic needs.

01;06;20;07 - 01;06;24;11
Erin Croyle
And I even remember and I think I've talked about this before on my podcast,

01;06;24;14 - 01;06;28;28
Erin Croyle
because my oldest has such substantial support needs.

01;06;29;02 - 01;06;37;09
Erin Croyle
I kind of missed the signs of ADHD and my other kids. And before I really understood what ADHD was and how debilitating it can be.

01;06;37;10 - 01;06;43;08
Erin Croyle
I sort of thought it wasn't a big deal. And now I see like, oh, it is a big deal in a very different way.

01;06;43;08 - 01;06;49;18
Erin Croyle
And some of the things are almost more complicated because those invisible disabilities make things,

01;06;49;21 - 01;07;04;12
Erin Croyle
really, really hard. And, and I think that a lot of times educators see the behavior and they don't recognize that there's actually a lot of support needs behind said behavior. So,

01;07;04;16 - 01;07;08;12
Erin Croyle
I say this because I'm really excited about the grant you're working on.

01;07;08;14 - 01;07;14;25
Erin Croyle
a breath of fresh air. And I've read through it and I see so much opportunity for innovation when it comes to

01;07;14;27 - 01;07;18;06
Erin Croyle
our children, our students, our futures and really reaching,

01;07;18;08 - 01;07;24;09
Erin Croyle
those marginalized kids, those marginalized people and the intersectionality that comes with it,

01;07;24;12 - 01;07;40;20
Erin Croyle
And I'm just going on and on and on. But I feel like the grant and the innovation here could really make a difference across education and the workforce. So I would like for you to share the basic cliff notes, easy to understand version of what the grant's goals are.

01;07;40;22 - 01;07;43;19
John Fife
the grant was was written

01;07;43;21 - 01;08;08;29
John Fife
by the Rehabilitation Research and Training Center. It was awarded to that center at VCU, and it's a five year project. And there are some very specific goals. One of the goals is vocational rehabilitation counselor participation, engagement practices, and helping and training vocational rehabilitation counselors in preparing to work with kids who have disabilities.

01;08;09;02 - 01;08;38;20
John Fife
the grant also prepares those same counselors for high quality employment in the Stem disciplines, so helping vacation counselors to understand where the Stem disciplines are. When we look at AI and how that's changing careers and how it's changing the way we view things, how do kids with disabilities prepare themselves or have the supports to be prepared to live in a world that is changing this quickly?

01;08;38;21 - 01;09;09;05
John Fife
I mean, when we look at kids who do not have disabilities, it's difficult for them to understand how to prepare in the post AI era. So the grant helps, really to prepare vocational rehabilitation counselors to get students ready for this new world that we live in. I want to go back to something that you mentioned. We can get back to the grant, but, you know, you talked about students with disabilities

01;09;09;08 - 01;09;38;12
John Fife
one of the starkest realities to me, when you have a kid who has ADHD or autism is, you know, when that kid walks into a room, the people who don't understand that kid usually have the opinion of, oh, here comes that kid. And it's so easy to mistake behaviors of the kid for

01;09;38;14 - 01;09;41;27
John Fife
with a disability and has a very separate set of needs.

01;09;42;00 - 01;09;54;17
John Fife
And that's one of the things that I think, of course, vocational rehabilitation counselors are much more trained in that way, but there's still more

01;09;54;20 - 01;10;10;18
John Fife
assist parents. They can assist those students so that they can actually be a liaison between the students and schools and administrators, so that they can better understand what this kid is actually dealing with and the supports that they really need.

01;10;10;19 - 01;10;34;22
John Fife
So I heard that part of what you're saying, and it's really kind of so important that we focus on that. So yeah, so there are a lot of different things that the Grant really supports. Again, when we look at the labor market, we know that 39% of the skills that make up the current workforce will be absolutely obsolete in the next five years.

01;10;34;28 - 01;10;59;23
John Fife
So again, we talked about Stem when we talked about AI. So we're looking really at about 170 million new jobs projected to emerge in the next five years. And it's really important for VR counselors to be able to improve their skills and understand that and understand their practices so that they can really pass this on to students who have disabilities.

01;10;59;23 - 01;11;07;03
John Fife
And, you know, there are so many other statistics that really talk about where we're going and why this grant is so

01;11;07;06 - 01;11;26;18
Erin Croyle
John, I'm going to put you on the spot here because, you know, I have ADHD. So you said a number and I didn't write it down. Did you say 39%? Can you repeat that?

01;11;26;21 - 01;11;31;28
John Fife
actually be obsolete over the significantly different in the next five

01;11;32;00 - 01;11;37;04
Erin Croyle
And do you have an example of those skills, the specific skills.

01;11;37;07 - 01;12;13;02
John Fife
Yeah, and I can name one, you know, right right away. And when we look for example at computer

01;12;13;05 - 01;12;24;12
John Fife
to school to study computer programing, it's like, wow, that's incredible. And for number one, you will say that person will make a lot of money for sure. And that is now totally different in a matter of a

01;12;24;15 - 01;12;27;24
John Fife
the skills that's that's changing quickly.

01;12;27;26 - 01;12;41;15
John Fife
So how do we deal with that world. And again these statistics are for everyone. We're not even discussing the implications, the added implications for students with disabilities. So again this is how we're

01;12;41;18 - 01;12;42;09
Erin Croyle
Oh my gosh.

01;12;42;09 - 01;12;59;11
Erin Croyle
Well, and I do want to say and I'm going to plug our next episode, we're going to talk about perceptions. So I don't want to I could go into that so deeply. But we'll save that for because this is part of a long series. And for our listeners out there, if there's anything that you want us to tap into, I mean, this is a five year grant.

01;12;59;13 - 01;13;17;22
Erin Croyle
This is an ongoing series. There's so many things we want to touch on. And frankly, I'm excited to because to me, I knew AI was coming, but I like it felt like it happened overnight. And so the fact that so much of what this grant is doing is going to be like,

01;13;17;25 - 01;13;26;29
Erin Croyle
you know, we talk about translational research and research to practice, but it's going to be on the grounds kind of following something as it evolves, sort of a moving target.

01;13;27;00 - 01;13;34;23
Erin Croyle
Like, is that sorry, I'm going to totally sort of tangent really quickly, and then we'll do our last question because we're going to try to keep these short.

01;13;34;25 - 01;13;42;10
Erin Croyle
As a researcher, as a as a person who does this, is that new for you to be researching a moving target like this?

01;13;42;13 - 01;14;03;00
John Fife
Absolutely. It's new for everyone I don't think that it's anyone that can say that what is happening has been expected on normal. And I think the bigger question is how much of this are we really willing to embrace? And it's a difficult topic because we're talking about, especially if we're talking about AI. We're talking about the loss of jobs.

01;14;03;02 - 01;14;10;10
John Fife
What is also true is we're talking about some unique opportunities

01;14;10;13 - 01;14;36;06
John Fife
well-being, especially of students with disabilities. So, for example, there's a current program, Nora, where we'll be looking at that and helping vocational rehabilitation counselors to use this kind of AI powered social communication training tool, tool for individuals with autism. So, again, you know, there's always a segment of the population that says, you know, we cannot embrace this.

01;14;36;06 - 01;14;48;12
John Fife
This is dangerous. And there there's a lot of that that's very valid. And we have to be concerned about what is also true is can we actually put the genie back in the box? That is part of

01;14;48;15 - 01;14;50;01
Erin Croyle
No.

01;14;50;03 - 01;14;57;20
John Fife
we really can't. So we have to really think about how we can ethically and carefully use this tool.

01;14;57;20 - 01;15;04;29
John Fife
And for us in this project, we're thinking about how we can use this tool to really improve the lives of students with

01;15;05;01 - 01;15;07;17
Erin Croyle
That is so exciting to me. And,

01;15;07;19 - 01;15;23;00
Erin Croyle
like I just said, AI moving target. Everything is just changing so quickly. We've already seen the way that social media changed and we didn't really follow that as closely then. And I think now we know to follow how this is going to impact people. But

01;15;23;02 - 01;15;37;00
Erin Croyle
know, what I find exciting as well is that this grant, while it's Stem focused, this research that you're doing and the support that it's going to give to students with disabilities, it applies to so many things.

01;15;37;00 - 01;16;00;03
Erin Croyle
So while the series is going to be Stem ability, and we're going to talk a lot about Stem, I feel like and especially as someone who, you know, I don't share this often, but I'm a school board member, so I understand how important all the things are to inform our educators and and how higher education. There are so many changes we need to make that will hopefully help with public education.

01;16;00;11 - 01;16;07;24
Erin Croyle
So I find this grant so exciting. I want to know what you're most excited about with this work.

01;16;07;26 - 01;16;53;00
John Fife
a great question. And I think that the overarching thing for me is that we get an opportunity to challenge the cultural exclusivity that we're sensing in the last few years. Sometimes, at least to me, it feels like we have a modern affection for social Darwinism. You know, it's survival of the fittest, and we create our systems and sometimes our educational systems to fit folks that are already doing well and the people that are easy to understand, our system supports them adequately.

01;16;53;02 - 01;17;32;05
John Fife
And I think this grant is an opportunity for us to say, wait a minute. Let's slow down. And what about the folks that we don't adequately understand and the folks that we've kind of easily left behind? What about a student who struggles with focus, and it's really incredibly smart and deserves the opportunities that every student has. And I think this grant gives us an opportunity to bring awareness, not just to vocational rehabilitation counselors who already have a certain degree of awareness, but it allows us to prepare them to partner with administrators, to partner with parents.

01;17;32;05 - 01;17;51;28
John Fife
That gives parents to give parents hope. It gives students an understanding that they can attain some of the dreams that they've always had. And they don't just have to be that kid that's in the corner, that they could be integrated into the system and integrated into

01;17;52;04 - 01;17;54;24
John Fife
educational discourse.

01;17;54;26 - 01;17;57;22
Erin Croyle
John. Doctor Fife I am so.

01;17;57;24 - 01;18;10;24
Erin Croyle
Excited to just keep talking about this with you. So we're going to stop at this because we've got more to come. And like I said before, any of you listening, please, please, please, anything you want to hear about

01;18;10;26 - 01;18;24;11
Erin Croyle
you let us know and we'll tackle it, because we've got plenty of time to touch on these. And what's really cool too, since this is moving forward and we're going to be doing this while you're doing the work, is that,

01;18;24;14 - 01;18;28;15
Erin Croyle
there's a chance that our listeners can inform the research even,

01;18;28;15 - 01;18;29;19
John Fife
Absolutely.

01;18;29;22 - 01;18;31;07
Erin Croyle
there's so much opportunity here.

01;18;31;12 - 01;18;42;17
John Fife
Absolutely. And we will be in a viewing, of course, vocational counselors, we'll be interviewing parents we want to hear. We'll be interviewing students of their interested

01;18;42;19 - 01;18;43;22
Erin Croyle
Yes.

01;18;43;25 - 01;18;56;28
John Fife
And because those are the people who have the answers, it's actually us students. It's not the researchers, it's not the quote unquote experts. It's really our students that can really

01;18;57;00 - 01;19;00;05
Erin Croyle
Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's the.

01;19;00;11 - 01;19;08;11
Erin Croyle
I always say the most important members of the IEP team are the student and the and the caregiver always.

01;19;08;14 - 01;19;17;05
Erin Croyle
Well until next time. Thank you.

01;19;17;08 - 01;19;24;27
Erin Croyle
And thank you for joining us for this very first part of our brand new and ongoing Stem ability series.

01;19;25;00 - 01;19;35;01
Erin Croyle
Please be sure to share, rate, review, subscribe, like, follow or whatever it is you need so you get a ping when the next episode drops.

01;19;35;04 - 01;19;46;13
Erin Croyle
In that one, Doctor Fife and I will be discussing how perceptions and more importantly, misperceptions, impact dynamics and education and beyond.

01;19;46;16 - 01;19;49;24
Erin Croyle
This is the Odyssey of Care.

01;19;49;26 - 01;19;52;12
Erin Croyle
I'm Erin Croyle.

01;19;52;15 - 01;19;53;02
Erin Croyle
We'll talk soon.