Episode 137--What is your worth? My conversation with Sheri Johnson

Intro:

Hello, and welcome to episode 137 of the Childless not by Choice Podcast. My name is Civilla Morgan. My mission is to recognize and speak to childless not by choice women and men around the world, reminding you that you can live a joyful, relevant, fulfilled, childless not by choice, life.   Whether you have children or not, thank you for tuning in!   What is today’s show about?

What is your worth?

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Intro (for guest episodes):

Sheri Johnson turned the pain of three miscarriages and six years of an infertility journey into a passion to inspire childless not by choice women to live full, unconventional lives of meaning. 

She made the decision to use her coaching background to create a process for navigating the triggers. She teaches her process in 1x1 coaching and in her membership program. 

Sheri says that women leave the program feeling empowered with practices they can use throughout their lifetime.  

 

At the end of our discussion today Sheri will tell you how to obtain a free gift created just for you!  

 

Hello Sheri, welcome to the show!

 

1. You say that many women do not realize they are grieving, tell us what you mean by that?

 

Now this in itself may be triggering, but you say ‘Triggers can be a part of grieving’, how so?

Tell us about some of the tools we can use to heal…           

           Mindfulness 

            Journaling

            Meditation

            Nutrition

            Essential oils

            The Bible

 

When we spoke before recording, you said something that really intrigued me, that ‘women seem to just be waiting to get better…’

Guess what you all? Sheri has a gift for you! 

Sheri’s information:

Free gift from Sheri: 

www.sherijohnson.ca/quiz

Contact info:

@Awakening.worth 

Podcast: Awakening Worth

 

Quotes from Sheri:

‘...I’m open to the healing that’s meant for me.’

 ‘I’m responsible for building my self-worth.’

‘It’s not the person bringing the baby into the office that causes the pain, that person is triggering the pain.’

‘It’s like pressing on a wound that’s already there. They didn’t cause the wound, they are reminding you the wound is there.’

‘...we can try to educate the world about childlessness. There's a tendency to want to educate, but it’s like playing a game of whack a mole…it doesn’t matter how much we educate…the healing comes when we focus on healing our pain.’ 

Articles/links of interest:

https://www.rt.com/news/545233-pope-childless-pet-owners-selfishness/

https://childlessnotbychoice.net/product/blueprint-for-your-goals-and-visions/

https://bit.ly/2TSMuDV

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jan/12/more-people-is-the-last-thing-this-planet-needs-the-men-getting-vasectomies-to-save-the-world

My contact information:

Website: www.childlessnotbychoice.net and www.civillamorgan.com
Facebook: booksbycivillamorgan
Twitter: @civilla1
Instagram: @joyandrelevance
Pinterest: Civilla M. Morgan, MSM
LinkedIn: Civilla Morgan, MSM


If you would like to become a one-time or ongoing sponsor, or if you would like to advertise your business or an upcoming event, contact me at [email protected] for details. 

TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS

[Music]

Civilla Morgan: Well, hello, hello, hello everyone and welcome to episode 137 of the Childless not by Choice Podcast. My name is Civilla Morgan. My mission is to recognize and speak to the childless not by choice women and men around the world, reminding you, reminding us that we can live joyful, relevant, fulfilled, childless not by choice lives. Whether you have children or not, thank you for tuning in. What is today's show about? In one word, it's about worth. What is your worth? But before we get to our show in which, by the way, we have a guest, always excited when we have guests, I want to thank my Patreon contributors for all you do and your monthly contributions to the platform. You are truly appreciated, and I'm grateful for your sticking in with me and being there monthly, listening, tuning in of course, you can always reach out to me if you have any questions or suggestions and that goes for everyone who tunes in. If you would like to become a patron, please go to patreon.com/childlessnotbychoice, follow the steps to become a patron, and regardless of the level you join in, there is a free gift for you. Thanks again to my patrons.

Civilla Morgan: Sheri Johnson turned the pain of three miscarriages in six years of an infertility journey into a passion to inspire childless not by choice women to live full unconventional lives of meaning. She made the decision to use her coaching background to create a process for navigating the triggers. We all know about those triggers. She teaches her process in one-on-one coaching and in her membership program, Sheri says that women leave the program feeling empowered with practices they can use throughout their lifetime, and at the end of our discussion today, Sheri will tell you how to obtain a free gift she created just for you. Sheri, hello. Welcome to the show.

Sheri Johnson: Hi, Civilla. Thanks so much for having me. I am excited to be here today.

Civilla Morgan: I'm so glad that you are here and I can't wait for the listeners to hear all about you and your platform, and how you are helping in the childless not by choice community. I'm so glad you could make it.

Sheri Johnson: Thank you.

Civilla Morgan: Let's jump right in. I know we're starting with a really heavy question here. You say that many women do not realize that they are grieving. Tell us what you mean by that.

Sheri Johnson: Yeah, you are really diving right in. I love it.

Civilla Morgan: Yes.

Sheri Johnson: Go deep. Quick, let's forget about the pleasantries. I think grief is a funny thing. It's something that we really associate with a loss, and it's very easy to identify when you've lost a person, somebody that you love and knew and miss. But when you lose a dream, it's different. You don't necessarily associate that with grief. I didn't. Even after as you mentioned I had three miscarriages, I didn't even really think I was grieving then and I didn't think my grief was worthy. 

I thought you get to grieve when you lose a baby or when you lose a child or a father or a friend. When you lose something that you didn't even know, a child you never met, how is that worthy of grief? So it had already come up for me after my miscarriages, but then again, on my childless journey, I didn't realize that what I was feeling was grief or that I was allowed to feel that or express it. Does that resonate with you, Civilla?

Civilla Morgan: Definitely. Especially the allowed part, because you tell yourself and maybe we don't all think this way, but I know for me, I told myself, well, there are worse things that can happen in the world to me, and you just keep thinking it could be worse and maybe I'm just being weird and that's why nobody can resonate or understand what I'm talking about when I'm childless and wanted children so badly that I cried myself to sleep every night, but I never recognized that it was grief either.

Sheri Johnson: Yeah, it's like you have this yardstick and our type of grief is down at the bottom. It's shouldn't be a big deal.

Civilla Morgan: Right.

Sheri Johnson: Real loss is when you lose a living person.

Civilla Morgan: Yes, like many of the listeners know, I lost my mom two years ago, who was my absolute best friend ever on the planet, and so I miss her dearly every day. Every single day, I think about her and I miss her and I'm grieving her. 

Some people may think, oh my gosh, two years that's a long time, what's wrong with you? Other people totally understand that was the first face I ever saw on this planet and we got along really well. Some people don't get along with their moms and I'm sorry, but I got along really well with my mother. We have so many inside jokes that I can never share with anybody else.

Sheri Johnson: Oh, that's beautiful.

Civilla Morgan: Sometimes I think about them and they make me laugh and I could never say them to anybody else, but that's one type of grief. But yeah, we should not be minimal. Is that a word: minimalize?

Sheri Johnson: Minimize. Yeah.

Civilla Morgan: Oh my God. It's just cold in Florida and it's just cramping my brain here.

Sheri Johnson: Oh, you should come to Canada.

Civilla Morgan: No, not right now.

Sheri Johnson: I wish you come to Canada.

Civilla Morgan: No, I can only imagine the weather up there, but you can't minimize the grief and the pain that you have from being childless. 

It's a different grief, but grief is still grief and it's still important.

Sheri Johnson: Absolutely.

Civilla Morgan: That made absolute sense to me. Now, another thing that we talked. In the pre-show, we were talking about triggers. This may be a little triggering to some people, but hey, that's what this podcast is all about: trying to get us through all of that stuff. But you say that triggers can be a part of grieving. How was that?

Sheri Johnson: Well, that's a really good question actually. I think we forget that grief can show up in many different ways. We're used to it showing up as sadness, deep sadness in some cases, but it can also show up as anger or frustration or disappointment or hurt. All these other things can come out and it's all related to that grief and we just don't realize it. That's where I see triggers fitting in and when I say triggers, I think there's two types of triggers. There's triggers that remind you of your loss, those things that just bring back to, oh, I'm right back at the funeral or I'm right back in the moment. But there are also triggers that don't necessarily trigger sadness. They trigger anger and those are like hot buttons. To me, some examples would be just the questions: when are you having kids, or do you have kids or someone who announces their pregnancy or you're sitting around a table with a bunch of your friends, and all they can talk about is their children. Those are the things that tend to trigger anger or frustration or all those other emotions that we don't necessarily associate with grief, but they are. They're linked back. They're showing us pain that we haven't yet healed from. Does that make sense?

Civilla Morgan: Oh, yeah. That's really very interesting because yes, for some people, it just depends on where you are in the journey as well. Whether that very thing, that person showing up at the office, the new mother showing up at the office with her baby, is that going to trigger anger or is it going to trigger some other emotion just based on where you are in the journey? Again, here we go with minimizing again the feelings that we have because immediately some will say, oh, you're just jealous or why are you mad or upset that this person had a baby? But that's not what it is. It's seldom what it is. 99.999% of the time we're not mad at the person or angry at the person because they have a new baby. We're angry if we want to use the word angry, at ourselves or at life, because we didn't get to have the baby or have that experience. We're happy for you. I always say this. We are happy for you as moms. We're not angry at you. We're not jealous. We're just maybe upset at how things turned out or did not turn out for us.

Sheri Johnson: I don't know if you want to spend some time getting into triggers a little more deeply. But the way that I look at a trigger, it's not the person who brings the baby into the office that is causing the pain. That person's triggering the pain.

Civilla Morgan: Right.

Sheri Johnson: It's our own pain. I like to use a metaphor. It's like pressing on a wound. You already have a wound that's there. If somebody presses on it, they're not causing it. They're reminding you that it's there and it still has healing to do. So it's not others that are causing it, but they're reminding you that it's there, and depending on where you are on your journey as you said, that wound can be in various stages of healing. 

It might be scabbed over and someone is tearing that off or might be almost healed and that trigger feels like a pinprick versus a blow in the gut.

Civilla Morgan: Or the heart.

Sheri Johnson: That's usually more what it feels like, isn't it?

Civilla Morgan: But something you just said too, it depends on where you are and we keep saying to each other basically, it depends on where you are on the journey. When I started out in my journey, of course, the wound was raw as all get out. That's where a lot of the listeners probably are right now. You're just like, is this ever going to stop hurting? Am I ever going to stop feeling this way when I see a pregnant woman walking down the street? Am I ever going to figure out how to deal with this: the fact that I'm not going to have children and maybe they can't adopt, or maybe for whatever reasons, because you know that we are always asked, “Well, why don't you just adopt?” One of my pet peeve questions.

Sheri Johnson: That's a trigger, right? That's one of our triggers.

Civilla Morgan: Exactly. It's a big trigger because it's like, you don't know our story. You don't know what we can or cannot do or afford to do. Even with financial assistance, can we do it? I just don't know how we get across to society that is just not okay to ask certain questions or make certain suggestions, especially when there were not solicited. Tell me what you think about that.

Sheri Johnson: It's a really interesting question because I have a little bit of a different view on that. The way that I look at all of those questions, those triggers, we can try to educate the world on how to be sensitive towards us, towards childless women and I found the same thing after miscarriage and in the infertility world as well. There's a tendency to want to educate or to bring awareness to everyone around us so that they stop asking those sensitive questions. To me, it's like playing a game of Whac-A-Mole. Do you know that game?

Civilla Morgan: Yes.

Sheri Johnson: You can educate one person and then there's going to be another person.

Civilla Morgan: Another 20 people.

Sheri Johnson: Right. It never stops, and it doesn't matter how much we educate or how much we raise awareness as needed as those things are. The healing comes when we focus on healing our pain, and that was a big revelation for me. Once I actually found a way to heal from the pain, the triggers went away. It doesn't matter when someone asks me, because now it's too late for me, most people know I'm 49. Most people know that I'm not going to adopt. So I get the question, why didn't you adopt or do you have kids? Whatever those questions are, they still get asked, but they don't bother me anymore and it's so liberating and I think that's the joy and the fulfillment and the feeling that I want the childless women out there to know is possible.

Civilla Morgan: Which kind of leads to my next question. But I also want to say before we leave this topic unless you have more to say about triggers because that could be a whole episode on its own. I think I may have done one on triggers, but that's a big subject. I really like that you tell us that we can get to the place where those questions don't bother us anymore. We are all in different places and I kind of wanted to say this earlier, too, and that's not what either of us is saying. But we cannot beat ourselves up for where we are in the journey and you can't rush yourself along the journey either. There's no rushing yourself along the journey because you can find yourself right back where you left off if you try to push yourself through, which is another thing to keep in mind. So for somebody that's out there listening who may be early in the journey and you are just like beside yourself with grief and wondering what's going to become of you, your life. All of this stuff that we think about as childless women. I know some of us because I'm a little bit older than you are, we're thinking about what are our elder years going to look like for those of us on the other end of the age spectrum from those just starting out in childlessness. We're wondering who's going to take care of me. That conversation comes up quite a bit, but I really want to remind us that as far as the, who's going to take care of me question, having children doesn't guarantee you're going to have somebody to care for you. That's one end of the spectrum.

Sheri Johnson: True.

Civilla Morgan: Then on the just starting out spectrum, just know that you could get to a point like Sheri said, believe it. Trust us. You can get to the place where those questions will not bother you as much as they're bothering you now and maybe even to the point, like Sheri says where they just don't bother you at all. It can happen.

Sheri Johnson: Can I add something to what you were saying, Civilla? You mentioned you can't rush yourself through that process and I absolutely agree, especially when it comes to the sadness, you have to give yourself space and grace to just feel those emotions and allow them to work through you. But when it comes to the triggers, I actually think I wouldn't say rush it, but what I found is that when I actually took some action towards my healing, I healed a lot quicker because I have heard of women who, none of them are my clients, but they talk in online support groups and that kind of thing and their grandmother have friends who are grandmothers and they are of the age when maybe they could have had children and grandchildren. They're now being triggered by all the grandmothers around them who are talking about their grandkids.

Civilla Morgan: Right.

Sheri Johnson: So it can go on for a very long time if you don't take some action towards that healing and I guess what I'm saying is that time doesn't necessarily your wounds. Sometimes you need to actually do some of that painful but very liberating work that will get you there to where you and I are.

Civilla Morgan: Do some work. I totally agree with you. Yes, we have to do the work and I think honestly, some of the work comes in listening to podcasts about childlessness and being a part of a community of childless not by choice people and that's work.

Sheri Johnson: Yeah.

Civilla Morgan: So again, for those who are just starting out or those who maybe not just starting out, but haven't done much work, just know that even listening to podcast episodes about the childlessness aspect of your life, that is work. But Sheri's platform and we're going to get into that a little bit more, Sheri's platform will help you with actual work other than listening to episodes and being part of the community such as my next question for you. Tell us about some of the tools that we can use to heal. I know in our pre-conversation we talked about things like mindfulness and journaling and meditation, even nutrition, essential oils, the Bible even. So tell us some more about those tools.

Sheri Johnson: Yeah, I think all of those things came into play for me and what I found in the spiritual community was that all of those things are used, but we're not taught to use them in a way that's specific to healing from something like childlessness and taking the first few steps down that path and embracing the joy that you can find there. I started using them in a very deliberate way, and that was when I really started to feel the transformation. So meditation and journaling were big parts where I could really sit down with my journal and all these thoughts that were swollen around in my head and usually thoughts that were just kind of on repeat. I could start writing in a journal and get those out in my journal with some targeted questions to ask myself and suddenly all this stuff would start to come out on the page that I didn't even know was in my head and then I could sit quietly in meditation and ask God, ask the universe, whatever language is your thing, your source energy, your higher self. I could just ask that source energy, "How can I release this? Help me to release this," and just saying those words, showing that you're open to releasing that pain can help to do that. You mentioned nutrition and essential oils. Nutrition, that was kind of how I started my career down the wellness path. Nutrition is something that we sort of think of as a very physical thing. It's something that you do to lose weight or to get healthy, or it has a purpose and I started to look at it as a way to fuel my body and my soul same with physical activity: getting out into nature. It wasn't for the purpose of staying lean. It was to feel better and your physical and your spiritual and you're emotional. They're all connected.

Civilla Morgan: Oh yeah, they are. Speaking of nutrition just for a minute, I have lost about 10 pounds I think over the past couple of weeks and I know why I'm losing the weight. But I can tell you that since the weight has started coming off, I'm a person of headaches and migraines and sinus headaches. You name the headache I've had it since I was 11 years old, but I noticed as the weight was coming off, that I had less headaches. Even though if I went outside and my vehicle covered with pollen and yes, I would start sneezing and a lot of those headaches were sinus headaches and all of that, I was waking up with less headaches as I felt the weight coming off and I started connecting the dots. I'm connecting the dots, you know? Like you said, nutrition it's not just about being lean or, of course, you're going to lose weight, you're going to feel better and not weight shaming anybody. That's not what this is about. It's more that as you drop the pounds, let me speak for myself, I'm feeling better in myself, in my mind and in my body and I think nutrition is a really important part of this lesson and I think they're all important. The mindfulness, I know we talked about mindfulness and I did a mindfulness episode not long ago and journaling. I'll let you talk more about them because I think they're all awesome.

Sheri Johnson: The journaling is something that I developed a process around it all really. It was almost like once I started using them, I used them in a specific way as I said before. So I would start with say a trigger and somebody asked me a question or somebody said something that triggered me. My mom, for example, at Christmas time, she wrote a text to me and my two siblings and said something to the effect of, "Well, Christmas is all about the kids." I kind of thought, oh, how does that make me feel? What I used to do before I discovered this process, I used to just get angry at her and say, oh, it's all about my sisters and their kids and they're more important than me and I made that mean something about myself and then I started to shift that perspective. I found that I could take that trigger and say, "Okay, let me write about what's underneath of this. Where is this coming from?" I'd start journaling about that and then that would lead to other questions like, "How does that trigger make me feel and where is that emotion really coming from and when have I felt that emotion before?" Because quite often, this isn't the first time that's happened. It has happened before in adult life, but it's also happened probably way back into teenager hood and childhood. Asking those questions and writing down what I found is that so often what's underneath of those triggers is this feeling of inadequacy. This feeling of I'm somehow flawed or I'm somehow not worthy. In this case, my mother is making me feel like I'm less worthy than my sisters because I don't have kids, but that's my self-worth.

Sheri Johnson: I'm responsible for building my self-worth. Once I identified that, then I could start using some of these other things to build that self-worth back up, so essential oils as an example or nutrition. It doesn't even really matter: healthy food, going out and getting exercise, using essential oils, giving yourself self-care. But all of those things are that: self-care. 

You won't do those things unless you feel worthy and deserving of all of those, so they're all interconnected. Eating well is going to make you feel worthy and feeling worthy is also going to make you eat better food, because you're going to want to fuel yourself with better food when you feel you deserve to be healthy. It's a cycle. It's kind of like a chicken and egg scenario a little bit. I don't know which one comes first, but it's a cycle. So practicing that cycle of worthiness, identifying those things through journaling and through meditation and then practicing them through use of essential oils or your self-care routines or nutrition or getting out into nature, those are all ways of practicing your self-worth. Does that make sense?

Civilla Morgan: This is absolutely fabulous and I like how you say they're all interconnected and they are like the chicken and egg scenario. Not one is better than the other. They're all needed together and I really like that if we start practicing these things, which I know you're going to tell us more on how to do that. If we start practicing these things, we start feeling better about ourselves and when the questions come or the triggers come, I just thought about like when you're inside of a bouncing ball and the things were bouncing off of you.

Sheri Johnson: Yes.

Civilla Morgan: Those are the things that I just imagined and I know there may be some listeners who are thinking, "I'm never going to get there," but I'm telling you, it's the work that Sheri talked about earlier. We have to do the work and tuning into the episode is the work. As I said before, joining a positive group like the Childless not by Choice with Civilla Morgan Facebook group, those are all great ways to start the work. 

But I'm telling you, just this little section here that we just talked on the tools that we can use, that again could be a whole other episode. This is great, great stuff, Sheri. Thank you so much for breaking all of this down for us.

Sheri Johnson: Yeah, you're welcome.

Civilla Morgan: Another thing that we spoke about before the recording, all of this is intriguing me, but this was intriguing too. You said that women seem to just be waiting to get better. Can you tell us more about what you mean by that?

Sheri Johnson: I actually alluded to that earlier in our conversation here. We wait for time to heal us. We've been told this all of our lives. I mean, can you actually remember the first time someone said time heals all wounds? I can't.

Civilla Morgan: Yeah, since the beginning.

Sheri Johnson: So we grow up with this idea that we just have to wait it out. My theory is that waiting it out, all that does is we just adjust to the pain. To give an example, I like to use going back to the physical wound scenario. Let's say you break your arm. You could just let that heal by itself and it will eventually heal. It may not heal correctly. It may take a long time because it's not set properly, so you could let it heal by itself. It will kind of eventually heal and you'll adjust to the pain. 

If it doesn't heal properly, then you'll kind of set it aside, both tearing or some sort of anti-inflammatory to keep the pain down and you just sort of adjust to that or you could go and have it set and take some action towards healing that broken arm, put a cast on it and it's going to heal much more quickly and it's going to heal properly. In the case of allowing it to heal, what I think is we just kind of cover up that pain, bury it. Sometimes if you don't get it set right away, have you ever heard of people who have to get their bone re-broke and reset?

Civilla Morgan: Oh.

Sheri Johnson: That can be something that we do emotionally as well. You actually have to break yourself open again to get at all that emotion and allow it to release and reset. It goes back to our conversation about taking action towards your healing. You had Sarah Roberts on your last episode, whether it's going to some sort of counseling or therapy or coaching or listening to a podcast or joining an online Facebook group or doing some of the things that I offer, whatever you do, taking some kind of action is going to help you cast that bone. It's going to help you to release all that emotion up front so that you're not bearing it and just adjusting to.

Civilla Morgan: This is just really great information. I mean, I keep saying it, but it's really fabulous. It's helping me.

Sheri Johnson: Oh, good. It's all stuff that helped me.

Civilla Morgan: Of course, I know that means that it's helping listeners out there as well and so this is just really, really awesome and I can't wait for this episode to air. But in the meantime, before we get to the gift you have for us, I want to give you the opportunity to just give us some final words as we close out this episode. Just tell us some things to help us through this year.

Sheri Johnson: I think the number one thing I would say is just close your eyes and say, "I'm open to healing. I'm open to whatever solutions come my way." Simply opening yourself up to the multitude of solutions that are out there, I feel like it's going to bring the right one into your hands. I think so many of us, myself included, we kind of go through life. Everyone's giving everybody else advice and we tend to shut down and think I just need to handle this by myself because nobody gets it. But when you just turn that perspective around and say, "I'm open to the healing that's meant for me, that's going to come." Something is going to happen in that the right podcast is going to land in your feed or the right post or the right person is going to stand in front of you and have what you need to get through what you're going through.

Civilla Morgan: That's awesome and so the key is to be open to healing.

Sheri Johnson: Yes, exactly.

Civilla Morgan: That's wonderful. Before you tell us about the free gift, and I know we didn't discuss this pre episode, tell us about the podcast. You have a podcast coming up, right?

Sheri Johnson: I do. Yeah, I currently have a podcast that's called Love & Loss and my first two years of that podcast were focused on miscarriage: women who had suffered from a miscarriage and were struggling to get through that. As my own journey evolves, as I've made my way through infertility and my three losses and have embraced my childless journey, I really am starting to pivot my business, my podcast, everything towards childless women as well. So there are certainly women who've had a loss in that group, but there's also women who have maybe entered childlessness because they never found the right partner or they did find a partner, but that person didn't want kids. There's a multitude of reasons that someone lands in childlessness and what I learned is that all the triggers, the pain it's the same for all of us. So I really wanted to open that up a little bit more to a broader audience and so my podcast is pivoting. It's going to be called Awakening Worth. By the time you air this, we'll have a few episodes out on that and my whole business will really be focused on helping childless women develop that sense of self-worth to drop the feelings of inadequacy and not fitting in, so we all too can lead the joyful fulfilling lives that you talk about in your intro.

Civilla Morgan: Exactly. The name of the podcast everybody's going to be Awakening Worth. You can also find Sheri on Instagram at awakening.worth, W-O-R-T-H. Now, tell us about the free gift.

Sheri Johnson: Yes, so I have developed a quiz. Takes two minutes. It will help you uncover whether your sense of self-worth is helping you to heal or hindering or blocking you from healing and living your joyful child free life, because it can feel more like a child free life than a childless life. When you take that quiz, you'll get a full breakdown of your results and then you'll also get my free PDF download, which is my secrets for living for embracing a child free life. So that can be found at sherijohnson.ca/quiz

Civilla Morgan: And Sheri is S-H-E-R-I. So http://www.sherijohnson.ca/quiz

Sheri Johnson: Yes.

Civilla Morgan: Right. Okay. Everything's in the show notes, everybody. All the information is in the show notes. Always as I always ask, please read the show notes because not only are the things that we discussed on this episode in the show notes. Sometimes I find interesting articles and I don't always get to put them in the Facebook page, but there are some articles that I come across during my time online that I think you might find interesting. There's one article in there. Well, I'll let you look at the show notes and look at the articles. I'll leave it like that, but Sheri, I want to thank you so very much for this time that you spent with us today. This was so informative. So truly helpful. I mean, I've been on this journey for a number of years, but I don't think we ever stop learning or stop getting better. I really feel like this episode was a help to me as well. I want to thank you very much for your time today and for everybody out there listening, thank you for tuning in. If you want to reach out to Sheri again, the information is in the show notes. If you want to reach out to me, my contact information is in the show notes and until next time, have a great one. Bye.

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