Achieving Success and Navigating Challenges in Graduate School With Dr. Justin Grimes

Discover the keys to success in graduate education, making informed decisions, and leveraging resources effectively.

Graduate school can be both a thrilling and daunting journey, filled with challenges and opportunities that require strategic planning, resilience, and a clear set of goals. In a recent episode of “Victor's in Grad School” hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Justin Grimes shared his rich experiences and valuable insights into what it takes to navigate graduate school effectively. Below are key takeaways from the episode, expanded to help you prepare for your graduate journey.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Dr. Grimes’ educational journey started at the University of Arkansas, where he realized his passion for student affairs. Initially interested in computer science, he pivoted to student affairs after attending the NASPA conference in Washington, D.C. The experience was transformative, helping him see a future beyond a cubicle-bound career, and eventually led him to pursue advanced degrees. His decision underscores the importance of discovering your true interests and aligning them with your career goals.

Key Points:

• Exploration: Attend conferences and networking events to discover career paths.
• Passion: Align your graduate studies with what energizes and interests you.
• Mentorship: Seek advice from mentors who can guide your academic and career decisions.

Transitioning Through Different Degree Levels

From undergraduate to master’s and then to a doctorate, each degree level demanded different skills, expectations, and adjustments from Dr. Grimes. His journey also highlights the importance of adaptability, a support system, and resilience. The transition also involved making a strategic choice to stay at the University of Arkansas for his Master's due to familiarity and resources before moving on to the University of Georgia for his PhD due to networking and alumni experiences.

Key Points:

• Adaptability: Be ready to manage increased workloads and deeper academic engagements.
• Support System: Leverage familial, collegial, and professional networks to navigate transitions.
• Adaptability: Embrace and adapt to the unique demands of each educational level.

Importance of Asking the Right Questions

Inspired by his journey, Dr. Grimes authored a book titled “20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School.” This resource addresses the myriad of questions prospective graduate students often overlook, such as funding, degree requirements, and long-term career goals. By addressing these questions early, students can make more informed decisions and avoid common pitfalls.

Key Points:

• Informed Decisions: Assess your personal and professional goals against the realities of graduate education.
• Financial Planning: Understand all financing options and create a realistic budget.
• Resources: Utilize books and guides to navigate the application and preparation process.

Overcoming Challenges and Achieving Success

The road to a graduate degree is littered with academic and personal challenges. Dr. Grimes candidly shared how he had to tackle personal setbacks, like managing his father’s health issues while pursuing his PhD. His advice revolves around accepting the reality of difficulties, planning for them, and finding ways to manage them effectively.

Key Points:

• Resilience: Cultivate a mindset that can withstand academic and personal upheavals.
• Planning: Be proactive in planning for both expected and unexpected challenges.
• Community: Engage with academic communities to find support and encouragement.

Innovating Through Knowledge and Networking

One notable aspect of Dr. Grimes’ journey is the way he used his degree to bridge gaps between academia and professional practice. His work involves not only understanding but also reformulating academic insights to benefit those outside traditional academic circles.

Key Points:

• Bridging Gaps: Use your graduate education to translate complex ideas into practical applications.
• Networking: Build relationships within and beyond your academic community.
• Continuous Learning: Embrace lifelong learning and be open to new opportunities.

Tips for Success in Graduate Education

To conclude, Dr. Grimes shared a few essential tips for those considering or currently in graduate programs:

1. Clarify Your Goals: Understand why you are pursuing graduate education and how it fits into your career trajectory.
2. Budget Wisely: Financial planning cannot be overstated. Know your expenses and funding sources. 
3. Skill Assessment: Identify your strengths and skills to better position yourself for academic and professional success.
4. Support Networks: Build and maintain strong support systems both in and out of academia.
5. Enjoy the Journey: Amidst the stress, find moments to celebrate your progress and enjoy the learning experience.

Graduate school is a deeply personal journey filled with growth, discovery, and the occasional setback. As Dr. Grimes' experiences highlight, success in graduate education is not just about academic excellence but also about making informed choices, fostering resilience, embracing change, and building strong support networks. For those taking the plunge into graduate studies, his book, “20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School,” is a must-read to navigate this transformative journey effectively.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]:
Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk to you, work with you as you are either looking at the possibility of grad school, going through graduate school, getting ready to graduate from grad school. No matter where you are, everybody is on a journey as you consider this thing called grad school. And you don't have to do it alone. And that's the thing that every week I try to bring to you and I try to impardon you is that there are so many people that have gone before you, that have had similar experiences, different experiences, doesn't really matter because they've gone through grad school. They've experienced it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:00]:
They've learned, and they've lived it. And through that, they've been successful. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have different experiences that they can share with you that'll help you on the journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Justin Grimes is with us today, and doctor Grimes is the owner and chief executive officer of Stick With It LLC. And we're gonna be talking about his own journey in going through graduate school as well as a brand new book that he wrote called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. And we've talked about things to think about, things to consider, but I'm always looking for more resources, so here's another resource for you. So we're gonna talk about that too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]:
Justin, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:01:48]:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]:
It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here today and to learn a little bit more from you. And first and foremost, I love turning the clock back in time, so I'm gonna go back. Quite a few years, I wanna go back to the University of Arkansas. You did your undergraduate work at the University of Arkansas. And at some point during that work on your bachelor of business administration and working on some studies in computer science, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on and get a master's degree. Talk to me about what was going through your head and why you made the choice that you wanted to get that graduate degree?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:02:29]:
You had a unique opportunity very early on to attend several conferences and events. And one of those that I attended for those who work in higher education, particularly in student affairs, was the NASPA conference. I went to my first National Association of Student Personnel Administrators conference in Washington, D. C. My first time in D. C. And fell in love with this field of student affairs. And upon working through my undergraduate degree, I realized pretty quickly that the career path I was on at the time was going to likely put me in a cubicle.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:11]:
And as a very social individual who likes to be around people and gets energy from that, I decided that I needed to consider another option. And that NASPA conference confirmed for me that that field of choice needed to be student affairs. So recognizing that my entry into student affairs for many positions was going to be meeting the requirement of having a graduate degree. So I decided to, like many people, apply to a graduate program, take the GRE. Unfortunately, I didn't do well. I didn't really spend a lot of time preparing. In full transparency, I just believe my arrogance and presence was enough to get me in. I didn't have a stellar GPA.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:51]:
I I tell people my academic story starts with me in my 1st semester getting a one point 66 GPA and getting placed on academic probation. And the next semester getting a 3.33 GPA. And so I didn't have the GPA necessarily to meet the qualifications, but I've had the tenacity, the resiliency, and the drive, and the willingness to say, you know what? Let's go for this goal. And, plaque for a master's program in student affairs at the University of Arkansas and I got told no. And I'm really thankful to that faculty member who met with me and said this might not be the right program in terms of getting you into the field but considering another option. Consider workforce development education. They have 2 tracks. 1 is wor, human resource development education.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:04:40]:
One is adult education. Which one would you be interested in? And I'll connect you to the department head. And I thought that in the event that this student affairs, higher education trajectory doesn't work out for me, the idea of hiring, firing, and training people seems really interesting to me. So let me go with that route. And I did the program. It was a online master's program, but I decided to take some classes in class because I love the classroom and thought that a good class to take in class is research. So I finished my master's degree at the University of Arkansas, the same place I did my bachelor's degree and started my entry into student affairs. And that's what made me say, in order to get to this field, you've gotta get your master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]:
You kind of answered my next question, which really comes down to, as you are thinking about your graduate degree, your your master's degree, why you chose to stay at the University of Arkansas. But you kind of answered that. So I'm gonna pivot a little bit because you you decided after a few years of working that you went from the master's degree, your master's in works workforce development, and you decided to go back to school. And you decided to work on a doctorate degree, a PhD, this time in college student affairs administration. So we heard your story about not getting into that that college student personnel or college student affairs program and master's degree, but you did get into a doctor doctor degree, and you chose to go to the University of Georgia. So talk to me about going into the workforce, but then making that next decision to go back to school. What were the impetuses for you to want to do that? And why the University of Georgia? And why a PhD in this area?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:06:30]:
After graduating with a master's degree, I started my student affairs journey, professional journey, full time working in residential life. A lot of people who start in the student affairs get into this particular area within the field and I enjoyed it. You know, being able to impact and have an opportunity to shape, mold, and work with another generation of up and coming students who were really excited about the things they were gonna do with their degrees kept me intrigued and working in the field on top of going in to events and conferences and staying engaged. And I worked at the University of Central Oklahoma for 3 years and then decided that, you know what? I spent enough time as a RD, as a residential, RC at the time, residential coordinator. So now it's time to go to another position. And I went to the University of Oklahoma in a role where the title doesn't matter, the work is what matters more. And and so within that, while I was there, I met had a lot of colleagues who were interested in pursuing doctoral degrees. Also at this time, I recognized that for some doctoral programs, you needed to have at least 3 years or more work experience.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:07:40]:
And so as I'm learning and having conversations with colleagues and friends who are going back to get their doctoral and was told no again. And so not that one but another one. And in, you know, in all honesty, what led me to really think about where I was and what was gonna be next in my career was talking to mentors. Many of them pouring into me still saying, you can go to be more in this field. You can do more in this field. And I had a vision and a goal to be a dean of students. A lot of my mentors were dean of students or vice presidents of student affairs or college presidents, and I wanted to be at that position. And so I knew the qualification for many individuals who were going to who wanted to do that was to get a doctoral degree.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:08:33]:
Happened to be working at an institution that offer programs but I sided decided that I think now was the time to go do something else, to go somewhere else. And so as I was looking at different programs, what appealed to me at the University of Georgia, 1, I had a mentor who graduated from the University of Georgia who I held in high regard and respect still very much to this day. He was a graduate of the institution. 1 of my fraternity brothers, I'm a member of Alpha Fraternity Incorporated. And one of my fraternity brothers was working in, the Greek life office at the time as a full time part time graduate student in the program and full time employee and having a phenomenal experience. But what really solidified it for me was going to yet again a NASPA conference. And while there, I met 3 current students, now alums of the program, who each were doing different conference presentations and I met them and they were 3 completely different people, personalities, styles, dress, appearance. Everything about them was very different.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:09:33]:
And then they did a concurrent session with another good friend of mine. And I said, all 3 of you all are in the same program? And they say, yes. I said, Sign me up. So I then started my my road back to applying to grad school, taking the GRE, really working through more intentionally this time, my preparation for applying to graduate school. Hadn't been or visited the institution. Didn't even know it was in Athens, Georgia. I knew it was in Georgia, but I didn't do my due diligence in that way. But applied to the program and was really, really interested and got admitted into it and decided that, yeah, I think I'm a go.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:10:10]:
But at Georgia, they had this program called Acceptance Students' Day. I took that event as an opportunity to go visit the campus, to go sit in a class with one of the faculty members, to meet them in person, and to really gauge and see myself living in Athens, moving across the country a little bit, a few states, and saying confirming for me that this was the decision I needed to make. And those 3 days, I decided, yes, Georgia is where I'm going to go and was connected with a lot of resources to support to help me in that transition.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]:
So let's talk about transitions because I know that with every different degree that you go in, there are transitions. There are things that you have to learn either before or as you go in that are going to be pivotal in how you are able to start your path on the right foot and being able to then build those strategies that'll help you to be successful throughout the entire program. Going from undergrad is very different than being in a a master's degree is very different than being in a doctoral program. The expectations are different, etcetera. As you think back to the different transitions that you went through and you look at the endpoint, you were very successful. A your success throughout grad school?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:11:36]:
So one of the first things is learning to adapt the mentality of being a scholar, of being a graduate student. It as you've already stated, the expectation of this process, of this experience is much more. The second thing I had to adapt to and really learn to be successful in initially starting is managing the volume of work, particularly at the doctoral level. You are reading a lot. You are consuming a lot of information. And the expectation of your ability to come to an engaging, 1st couple of weeks to take that on, And that can be a lot in the 1st couple of weeks to take that on while you're also, for me, navigating living in a brand new city, living in a brand new state, managing some homesickness. Even though I hadn't lived in the state of Arkansas for 5 years at that point, that was still home for me. And so being away from there, the other part of the transition for me is relying on and knowing that I had support systems who were going to be with my family. My father who was living at the time, health was not the greatest during my time of being at the University of Georgia. And so I'm now 8 and a half, 9 hours away. That's not a way you can you can't get a phone call and just drive down quickly. You really got to think through some things. And so that was a challenge for me.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:04]:
The financial aspect. I feel like I did not make a good financial investment initially in terms of planning through how I was gonna pay for this. I took out way too much of student loans my first couple of years. And so getting that amount of money at one time and trying to think through how I'm going to manage that over the course of a semester or the entire year was a transition for me. And then the last point is really understanding academic research at the graduate level. I immediately, as a part of the program, was joined into a research team, a research team that was already off and running with reviewing data. They already had IRB approval. These are words of which I had no prior knowledge of, or experience with extensively.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:50]:
And so that was very new for me and that was hard. And so I felt a lot of times that I was just coasting through, hoping to not be seen. And the point where I started to be successful happened during the point when I recognized and made a decision for myself that you can be seen, you can show up in the version that you are at the place that you are. This is not a competition. That program has a community model, not necessarily a cohort model. So we start together for the 1st year or 2, but after that, we can take different classes. We may in we may exit at this this position of being a doctoral student or to candidacy and graduation in different places cause they're a full time and part time students. And so the class that really confirmed me that you are in charge of this process, there's only one name attached to the ID number, is statistics.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:14:41]:
I took a summer statistics class. I had, one of my community members we star I started with and she was really good at statistics. And she was like, Hey, I'm a I'm a carry you through this. We're gonna get through this class. And very quickly in the 1st week, I realized she is not going to get me through this. She had a full time job and was juggling her family. So that first assignment, getting it back and not doing well, I said, oh man, you've got to figure out what you're going to do. Because you are gonna have to get yourself through this.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:15:09]:
And that point when I took that ownership, that's when things actually started to get a lot better for me. That was year 3. And then 4 years it took me to finish the degree. So it took a while. And I'm glad that I had that experience. I'm glad that I had those challenges with the research team and learning to adapt this new mentality of being a doctoral student. It was not easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:29]:
No. It's definitely not easy. And it take definitely takes time to be able to get into that groove and be able to understand what not only your faculty expectations are, but what the university expectations are. And the the the the mantle that you're wearing for that degree is going to be different depending on where you are, you know, in the program and all of them. There's tons of expectations that you've got in. Now you and we and I say that not to scare anyone, but just to go in with open eyes and to ask the right questions. And speaking of asking the right questions, doctor Grimes, as I said, wrote a book just recently that is called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. So, Justin, let's talk about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:14]:
Talk to bring me back to the beginning and tell me why you decided you wanted to take the time to work, to put all this together, to put this out into the world, and to help others in this way.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:16:28]:
So this is quite an interesting experience for me, writing a book. I never thought again, my goal was to be a dean of students and vice president and doing a doctoral internship for 2 years in the dean of students office. I quickly realized I don't wanna be a dean of students or a vice president of student affairs. And, you know, sometimes when you have that experience, you are having to figure out what you're going to do next. And my funding and my contract was not renewed in that office. And so that happens. That's real. Sometimes you lose your funding or your assistance citizenship and you've gotta figure out what you're going to do.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:17:02]:
Because of the relationships that I have with the graduate school going to recruitment events and talking with different prospective students, an opportunity was presented to me from the dean. The dean had already ended all of her positions for the following year, and one was created just for me to work in the graduate school business office. And while there, that really started my interest in learning about graduate school is what ultimately led me to write my own dissertation around what motivates students to pursue PhDs in education. And after I finished the doctoral degree, my wife, who I met while I was at the University of Georgia, got a job at Virginia Tech. And during that time as a spousal hire, I'm starting this, she was the primary hire, I am the secondary hire. An opportunity was presented at the graduate school to continue my work working in graduate school as a recruiter managing diversity programs and retention programs. And what I found being on the road is that I could talk to any prospective student about the institution. I could sell the institution.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:02]:
But what I could not always do is sell the program. What I did not always was able to do was to talk through funding. To talk about what you really need to be a full time student or a part time student. What funding look like, should you do this locally. There was a lot of questions that students had, but there were also more questions that students weren't asking before they made the decision to pursue it. And me included. I just kinda again, I was here earlier that I went to I accepted Georgia's site on the scene. And so this is what led me to write the book during the pandemic.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:35]:
Also during this time, my mother was navigating a cancer diagnosis. She has stage 4 thyroid cancer. So I'm traveling between Virginia and Arkansas to manage her, as well as my mother-in-law was battling a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. So me and my wife were on the road, and I needed something to pour into that was going to give life beyond this experience of 2 individuals battling it, cancer that was not curable and life being taken away. So I dove straight deeply into writing this book. It was the book that I needed. It was the book I wanted to give every student that I met. It was the book that I want everyone who thinks about graduate school to grab and go forward with.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:19]:
And that's what led me to write this book. It's been a wonderful experience. I never thought I would become an author. I never thought that I would leave for higher education, but that is what this book has led me to. So I share that story about my start in graduate education because it's what led me to this point now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:37]:
So as you put this book out into the world and people are reading it, what are some of the high points, the pieces that you really want everyone to take away from this book?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:48]:
I want everyone to, with this book, to first start about thinking start with thinking through your dreams and your goals. What exactly do you want out of your career and your life? And is a graduate degree required to do that? Or at what point will graduate education be connected to your long term professional career? As there are more jobs that are gonna be required in the future with graduate degrees, I want individuals to be prepared. The second thing is, for me, this book and the work that I do is to help individuals make a more informed decision about the funding of their degree, about what type of degree they wanna do, where they wanna do it at, how much did he commit to that. These are some of the questions that we ask in the book like how do I select my program is the question and how do I pay for graduate school is one of the 20 questions and what types of student loans can I use is another question? I want individuals to go through a guide step by step of identifying what this process entails. And then after the at the conclusion of reading it, feel more informed, feel more prepared, able to fully engage in the application process successfully. And so far, I mean, majority of the students who have used this book have been able to get into graduate school with no problems. And so for me, I know that the work is meaningful because I'm getting messages every day through social media and LinkedIn about the significance this book has had on people's lives. And I'm looking forward to this recent class of 2024 graduating, as well as the new class who's getting ready to start graduate school we have read this book.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:22]:
So now that you have written this book and you finish your degree, as you look at the future, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you have for yourself?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:21:35]:
So one of the things I love about the graduate degree is the opportunity to engage in critical thinking at a deeper level. The graduate degree provided me an opportunity to really understand when someone says the research says, I know what to do in terms of investigating and digging deeper into that. The graduate degree helped me to be able to unpack information in a way. The graduate degree helped me to become a better translator. Tell people the reason why I got a graduate degree is to be able to communicate between the haves and the have nots. Those in academia and those who are not. I I see myself as much of a bridge to higher education. And so the degree prepared me for such.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:22:16]:
The relationships, the networking that this degree provided me with, the credentialing that it's provided me with, I couldn't have even guessed that that's what it would would would bring for me ultimately. And so for me, as I think about the value of the graduate degree, it sometimes comes down to 4 things for people. You know, how much money it is? Is money the driver? Is networking credentialing the driver? Is always being a researcher or quest a thirst for learning the driver? Or goals? Is it connected to a goal? And so for me, this has done wonders in terms of what I've been able to do. But more importantly, I know that the work that I am doing in the book is changing lives. I know that it is providing inspiration to in the representatives in their family to go to college. For me, I'm the first one of my neighborhood, the first one of my family to obtain the doctoral degree. And that means a lot. And now I know that people who are connected to me see that it's a possibility, and it's one that they probably will choose.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]:
Now as you look back at your own experience going through graduate school and your graduate education, what are some tips that you might want to offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:23:39]:
First thing I want people to do is to really think through, again, what is your career trajectory? The second thing I want people to do is make a budget. Every person who's thinking about pursuing one of these degrees, whether it be for profit or not for profit, online or in person, you really need to make a budget to see what your current expenses are to identify what your financial needs are. The second thing, and I have a workbook for this on my website, is to think through your skills, your needs, your wants, and your gifts. What are you really gifted at? What are you really skilled at doing? And how is the graduate degree going to be a compliment to that? And to the point that you mentioned earlier about being open to things, I encourage people to really be open to the possibility of what this degree can do for you. I tell folks that there are a lot of opportunities to engage in entrepreneurial efforts through the graduate degree. It's not about just taking a class for the sake of taking it. It is also seeing how you can use that and share that out with the world. The next thing I encourage people to do is to look through and think about the terms and conditions for any student loan.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:24:45]:
I know that there are limited options related to student loans but really understand what you're registering and signing up for when you fill out the FAFSA and they are offering you that. I did not read this thoroughly and I wish I would have. So I would have had I had the budget and really thought about how much I needed, I wouldn't have taken out so much. And the next piece of advice I encourage people to really 2 things I will say is think about the supports that you need to be successful in this process. What do you need outside of this? Because I think that for a number of people, everybody I think who starts a graduate program are gifted academic. But what they what helps get people to the end, especially at the doctoral level, is their level of managing resiliency and managing managing difficult moments throughout this experience. Because there will be difficult moments. If you have an advisor, like I had one, a chair, who said, I think your writing is going the wrong direction and you've already submitted chapter 1 through 3.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:25:41]:
That is hard to manage. And so when your chair is saying, hey, we're gonna push your your defense back another to the next semester, that is a difficult moment and you need those supports inside and outside of the academic space to walk you through that. And the last thing I will tell people is enjoy the process. Enjoy every aspect of this. From getting the transcripts to hitting submit on your application to starting your first class to enrolling to meeting colleagues, to establishing collegial relationships and professional relationships with faculty. Enjoy all of this. I know it can be very stressful but I don't think people spend enough time enjoying it and recognizing that this is still a small amount of people who possess this degree these degrees. And so the enjoyment piece sometimes comes on the after side of it, right, when you're finished.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:34]:
But if you could just celebrate the fact that you wrote your first paper, that you got through the 1st semester, and keep going, you will ultimately finish their degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:43]:
Now Justin, if people wanna find your book, where's the best place for them to go?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:47]:
Go to apply to graduateschool.com. 2 is the the the letters t o. You can also follow us on social media at apply the number 2 g school. Definitely look me up on LinkedIn, Doctor. Justin Grimes. And there is where you can find a lot of information, blog posts, resources, copies of the book, and everything else we're doing with the business applied to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:09]:
Well, Justin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for what you're putting out into the world and for what you shared today, and I wish you all the best. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].