Victors in Grad School
Victors in Grad School explores what you can do to find success in your own graduate school journey no matter what you plan to do. Through experts and individual interviews you will be introduced to what it means to find success and tips on achieving success in graduate school.
info_outline
Scott Roy Shares the Realities and Rewards of Graduate School
09/01/2025
Scott Roy Shares the Realities and Rewards of Graduate School
Are you considering graduate school or already planning your path forward? The latest episode of “Victors in Grad School,” hosted by , is a must-listen for anyone pondering the next academic step. This week’s guest, Scott Roy—Registrar at the University of Michigan-Flint and graduate of both UM-Flint (undergraduate) and Eastern Michigan University (graduate)—shares a candid, relatable perspective on what it takes to succeed in graduate school and beyond. The Many Paths to Graduate School Scott’s journey reminds us that there’s no single route to grad school. Originally envisioning a law career, he pivoted to history after discovering his passion. This decision wasn’t made lightly; he evaluated the available programs in Michigan, taking into account not only program content but also logistical factors like proximity to family and program structure. Scott’s story highlights how practical considerations (such as avoiding an extensive thesis in favor of a final exam) and personal life (being close to his partner) can shape academic choices. Graduate School Is a Different Beast One of the strongest themes in the episode is the significant jump in academic rigor and expectations at the graduate level. Scott describes being “a deer in the headlights” during his first semester—faced with daunting reading lists and heavier workloads, often while juggling a job. His advice? Go in prepared for a step up in both self-discipline and time management. The episode offers heartfelt reassurance that feeling overwhelmed is normal, and that students do eventually adapt and find their rhythm. Finding Balance and the Importance of Support Scott is candid about the challenges of balancing work, school, and personal relationships—and about sometimes falling short. He urges prospective grad students to carve out space for self-care, mental health, and social connection. Loneliness can be a reality, especially with night classes and busy schedules, but joining campus organizations and building relationships with peers and professors can make the journey less isolating. Skills for Life, Not Just for a Job Description Even though Scott ultimately found his career path outside of museums and history, he credits his graduate studies with teaching him valuable skills—like research, problem solving, and personal growth—that enhanced his qualifications and shaped his perspective. It’s a reminder that grad school is about much more than a degree. Whether you’re just thinking about grad school or already on your way, this episode is packed with wisdom, encouragement, and practical advice. Tune in to “Victors in Grad School” to hear Scott’s full story and gather the fuel you need for your own journey. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to sit down, to talk to you, to work with you as you are going through this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school has to go through a journey for themselves. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: Whether you are at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about whether grad school is right for you, or you are applying right now, or maybe you've already applied and gotten accepted, There are many different places in this journey where you can do things to make the experience even easier. And then as you get into graduate school, there are things that you can do to be able to make yourself even more successful. That's what this podcast is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you to allow for you an opportunity to be able to gain some tools for your own toolbox, but also allow for you to be able to prepare yourself a little bit better for the graduate school journey that you're on and that you will be on in the future. This week we've got another great guest. Scott Roy is with us today, and Scott works at the University of Michigan, Flint in the office of the Registrar. And Scott did his undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan, Flint, and then he went off and got a graduate degree in history at Eastern Michigan University. We're going to be talking about his own educational journey and allowing you to learn a little bit more from him. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Scott, thanks so much for being here today. Scott Roy [00:02:04]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to talk to you. I mentioned the fact that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey, going through your undergraduate work, you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to continue your education. Take me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head as you figured out for yourself that graduate school was the next step. Scott Roy [00:02:35]: So I actually started my undergraduate degree not knowing what I wanted to do. I went into my Undergraduate thinking. I was going to go to law school. And then as I was choosing a major for my bachelor's degree, my advisor had recommended either English or history because he said a lot of law students chose those as their majors. So I went with history because that's the topic that I've always enjoyed. My family and I, we've always visited battlefields on vacation. We were Civil War reenactors. So history was just my thing. Scott Roy [00:03:05]: So I selected history. And about maybe two years or so into my degree, I decided that I didn't really want to be a lawyer. And so I didn't know what I wanted to do. I did actually decide that I wanted to do something in the history field. So I went to grad school with the idea of either becoming a professor or doing something in museums. So when I got to be about a junior, I started looking at different schools. There were only four schools in the state of Michigan that had history programs at the graduate level. So I was between Central Michigan University and Eastern. Scott Roy [00:03:40]: I ended up going down to Eastern. And then actually when I got to Eastern, I found out really that my niche was going into museums. So when I was at Eastern, my degree was in. But I also got a graduate certificate in Cultural Museum Studies. During that time, I was an intern down at the Historical Museum down in Monroe. And I got to do a lot of cool things down there. I got to lead tours, and I got to create different exhibits, do a lot of the curatorship at the museum there. And I realized that was kind of what I wanted to do with my life. Scott Roy [00:04:13]: So I stayed through graduate school, went through, got my master's, spent a couple years actually after graduate school trying to find a job and in the history field. And so I started out, right out of grad school. I started working at apartments. I was actually a leasing consultant leasing apartments. I did end up getting a job in a museum for about four years up in Frankenmuth. There's a military museum that I was a curator at. And then eventually, once I kind of settled down and I started to have kids and have a family, decided that I needed a more stable job. That's one thing I found actually, in my field is that museum jobs aren't always very stable. Scott Roy [00:04:51]: They depend on millages and grants and different fundraising. And so I decided at that point that I needed to find something more stable. That's how I ended up at U of M Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: So, Scott, you mentioned the fact that you looked at a number of different schools when you were deciding on where you wanted to go to graduate school and you ultimately chose to go to Eastern Michigan University. Bring me back to that point. And when you were looking at different schools, what were you looking for and what made Eastern the right fit for you? Scott Roy [00:05:19]: So, so I originally was planning on going to U of M Flint actually for grad school because that's where I had gone for my undergrad. But like I said before, there were only four schools in the state that had a history degree and I knew that's what I wanted to pursue. U of M, Ann Arbor was an option. I didn't really look a whole lot at that. Part of the reason was because that they required 100 page thesis. I realized that I didn't want to necessarily get my doctorate degree. And those thesis tracks were more for students that were pursuing a doctorate. Eastern and Central had options where rather than writing the thesis, you could take an exam. Scott Roy [00:05:56]: And so I chose Eastern partly because you could take the exam, but also because my wife at the time, she was my girlfriend, but we ended up getting engaged. She got a job down in Metro Detroit. So if I was up at Central, I was going to be several hours away. Being down at Eastern, I could be closer to her. So that was an easy choice for me and I'm glad that I chose the route that I did. So Eastern, I ended up taking a four hour exam. They gave me a list of 40 books during my last semester and I had to go through and basically memorize the arguments made in these books. And then I had to do a four hour exam about a historiography on it. Scott Roy [00:06:32]: So that's, that's why I chose Eastern was because I absolutely hate writing. The thought of writing 100 pages sounded nauseating to me. So I decided I wanted to do the four hour exam based on the books. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:43]: You know, everyone that makes a transition into graduate school has to go through, as I mentioned, a transition. There is a difference in the way that you're educated at the undergraduate level. And then when you get to the graduate level, you have to kind of figure that out for yourself. Talk to me about that transition for you. When you went from undergrad into grad school, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And then what did you have to do to maintain that success as you continued throughout your graduate school experience? Scott Roy [00:07:19]: So one thing that I will definitely tell you is that graduate school is a totally different beast than undergraduate school. Undergraduate school, you might have an assignment where you have to write five or 10 page paper and you might have a couple weeks. When I went into graduate school, I might have a class on Tuesday and I was expected to read a four or five hundred page book by like Thursday and have a paper done on it. So I remember my first semester of graduate school. I was like a deer in the headlights. The amount of work was totally different than what I had expected and that took a lot of getting used to. And on top of that, most graduate students, myself included, you have jobs as well. So I was working at the museum in Monroe part time, about 30 hours a week. Scott Roy [00:08:01]: So the workload itself was a lot more intense and that took some getting used to. The other things that I really had to adapt to was actually was loneliness. So being a grad student, I actually had an apartment on campus. It was just a studio apartment. I was by myself. I decided I didn't want to have a roommate because I wanted to be able to focus on studying. And looking back on that, I may have done that differently. One thing that I've found is a lot of graduate students, you don't see them on campus except for at night. Scott Roy [00:08:31]: Most of them have day jobs. I had a lot of classes with teachers who were taking night classes. So you didn't necessarily build the friendships that I built as an undergraduate. A lot of the students who were in class, they came from work, they went to their class and then they went home because it was 9 o' clock at night. So you didn't necessarily have the camaraderie that you had as an undergraduate. So I struggled with that to an extent. The fact that sometimes it could be a little bit lonely being in a city an hour from home, not necessarily knowing a lot of people. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:00]: On a personal level, sometimes students tell me that they face imposter syndrome as they go through graduate school. There's a feeling that they get into a program and they, they don't feel like they know everything that they should know or that they're prepared in the way that they need to be prepared. Did you ever feel that way? Did you ever feel and face that imposter syndrome or self doubt for yourself in graduate studies? And if so, how did you handle it? Scott Roy [00:09:26]: I guess to an extent, I've always been a good student as an undergraduate, so I wasn't necessarily worried about not being successful. But again, like I said, the workload the first semester, I didn't know how I was going to get through it. But then you start to realize, hey, you know what, I can do this. And you start to communicate with other students. In your class and they're able to help guide you through things and give you advice on how to be successful. And I mean, if you ever have problems, talk to the instructors. That's one thing I've found is a lot of times the instructors are more than willing to reach out to you because they know that you're a good student. Typically, if you're in graduate school, you have what it takes to succeed. Scott Roy [00:10:00]: Your professors know that you're a hard worker, otherwise you wouldn't be there. So I would say that if you ever have an issue to reach out. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:06]: To them, every student has to find their path for themselves. They have to figure out for themselves how to balance all of the different hats that they wear, whether it's your academic hat, that hat that you wear when you're working. As you mentioned that you had that part time job that you were working down at the museum, you have your personal relationships, your friends, et cetera. So talk to me about balance and what did you have to do to be able to balance all of those competing needs of others and needs for yourself in regards to what you had signed up to do in graduate school? And how did you handle that for yourself? How did you balance that for yourself? Scott Roy [00:10:48]: So actually one thing I wish I would have done better is learn a little bit more balance in graduate school. So I felt wore out by the end of it. I would get up sometimes, I had to be at work by 8:30 and where I worked was about almost an hour drive from the campus. So I had to get up pretty early to do that. And then I wouldn't get home sometimes till, you know, five or six o' clock and then I'd be doing homework. So it didn't come encompassed a lot of your life. I would make sure that I saw my girlfriend usually on the weekends. And then beyond that, one thing I wish I had done a better job of, so this is my advice to you, is make sure that you take the time to, I guess, take care of yourself, both mentally and physically. Scott Roy [00:11:27]: One thing I found in grad school is I ended up gaining like 30 or 40 pounds by the time I was done with grad school. And a lot of it was on me. I just didn't have the drive anymore to make sure I got to the fitness center. It's very hard to do when you're working and you're studying and you've been at it all day to find the time to make sure that you go to the rec center and make sure that you do the exercises and stuff that you need. I wish I had spent more time doing that. But beyond that, I guess you just kind of struggle through it for a little bit and then you find yourself out on the other side in a couple of years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: I know the work that you're doing right now may not be in the museum field, it may not be in the history field, but you're doing great work here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And as you go through graduate school, it does change some of the ways that you think, process, consider things. How do you find that graduate school changed the way that you think or work or approach problems or life in general? Scott Roy [00:12:23]: So even though I'm not in my field, a lot of the skills that I learned in graduate school are skills that I've been able to take with me into the workplace. A big one for me, I would say being a history major, I know how to research. I mean, if you give me a topic, I can usually find the answer. I know what resources to look into, and that's been very helpful in my day to day activities at the workplace. Beyond that, I do think having my master's degree actually helped me get my job. So even though my job is not in the history field, working on a college campus is pretty hard to get into. And I think the fact that I had a master's degree helped set me apart from other candidates and helped give me that interview. So even though I'm not working in my field, I do think that having the graduate degree was important. Scott Roy [00:13:07]: And then it also, I guess, kind of helped me decide what things are important and my life. So, I mean, I could work in a museum. If I went and lived down in metro Detroit, I could get a job at the Henry Ford or somewhere down there. But I decided that, you know, I wanted to be close to my family. My family lives in the Genesee county area. This is where I've always been since I grew up. When I was a kid, I wanted my kids to know their grandparents and to know their family. So I think graduate school helped me mature in that aspect and kind of figure out what was important to me in life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: So as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals that are thinking about going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner? Scott Roy [00:13:52]: First off, be prepared for the increase in the workload. I would say, to make sure that you have a good support system. Make sure that you take time to be involved in activities on campus. There were a couple of clubs that I joined just so that I got to know some people. I would recommend that just finding different ways to be involved so that you do have a good graduate experience and do get to know other people on the campus. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:14]: Well Scott, I just want to say thanks. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey and I truly wish you all the best. Scott Roy [00:14:21]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:22]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at .
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37922945
info_outline
Real Talk: The Challenges & Rewards of Graduate School
08/25/2025
Real Talk: The Challenges & Rewards of Graduate School
Are you considering graduate school, currently enrolled, or maybe just accepted? No matter where you are in your academic journey, the transition into graduate studies is filled with both challenges and opportunities. That’s the theme at the heart of this week’s episode of “Victors in Grad School,” where sits down with , the Associate Vice Chancellor and Dean of Students at the University of Michigan, Flint, to unpack her path from bachelor’s to master’s to earning a PhD. Changing Directions and Embracing New Opportunities Dr. Snyder’s story is a powerful reminder that it’s okay to change direction. Originally planning to attend law school, she found herself drawn to the world of student affairs thanks to a mentor’s guidance—even at the last minute. Her advice for those making similar choices is simple and clear: don’t get boxed in by traditional timelines or expectations. Sometimes, taking the road less traveled leads to the most fulfilling outcomes. Transition and Mindset Shifts in Graduate School One of the main themes discussed is the significant mindset shift required in graduate studies. The workload becomes more rigorous and independent. Impostor syndrome is real, especially when it feels like you’re surrounded by “geniuses”—but, as Dr. Snyder notes, hard work, not innate brilliance, is the ultimate key to success. She emphasizes acknowledging your struggles and leaning on your peers, admitting you can’t (and shouldn’t) do it all alone. The Power of Mentorship and Peer Support Mentorship and support systems are fundamental. Dr. Snyder credits mentors with helping her identify opportunities—including her eventual career pivot—and prioritize demands when all tasks seem equally urgent. She also stresses the importance of relying on your peers, sharing resources, and working together, especially when preparing for comprehensive exams or tackling difficult coursework. Balancing Life, Work, and Academics Dr. Snyder also addresses the balancing act required in grad school: managing coursework, work obligations, family, friends, and personal well-being. It’s not easy, but she assures listeners it’s possible by knowing your priorities, using time management strategies, and, crucially, not losing sight of what you love outside of academics. Final Thoughts If you’re seeking inspiration and practical advice for your graduate journey, this episode is packed with candid stories and actionable insights. Dr. Snyder’s honesty about the ups and downs, her encouragement to pursue opportunities, and her message that “it is all doable” make this a must-listen for any current or aspiring grad student. Ready for more wisdom, support, and real talk about surviving and thriving in grad school? Be sure to tune in to this episode of “Victors in Grad School,” and join the ongoing conversation about success, support, and self-discovery in graduate education. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey. As you are considering graduate school, you're looking at graduate school. Maybe you've applied and you're and gotten accepted. Maybe you're getting ready to start. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:30]: No matter where you are, you are truly on a journey. Because no matter if you are at the very beginning just starting to think about it, you're in graduate school or maybe you see that light at the end of the tunnel, there are things that you can do all the way through this journey to be able to prepare yourself and to help yourself be more successful in the journey itself. That's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk with you, to work with you as you are going through this journey, to be able to provide you with some, I'm going to call them, tools for your toolbox to help you to think about things in a little bit different way. We do that by introducing you to people that have gone before you. They've gone to graduate school, they've been successful, and they have had the opportunity to be able to learn some things along the way. Maybe positive, maybe negative, you never know. But we. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]: But today we got another great guest. Dr. Julie Snyder is with with us today. And Dr. Snyder is the Associate Vice Chancellor and Dean of Students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And Julie has three different degrees. So we're going to be talking about the journey that she went on from getting that bachelor's degree to that master's, that doctorate, and kind of learning along the way. So I'm really excited to have her here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Julie, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:01:41]: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor just to have the opportunity to share life experiences with graduate students. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to talk to you as well. And I guess first and foremost, what I'd love to do is be able to go back in time because I know that you did your bachelor's degree at Duquesne University, and during that experience, I'm guessing based on the fact that you got a bachelor's in political science and then knowing what you got your master's degree in, I'm guessing you got a little involved in that undergraduate experience and you made A choice to go on and get a master's degree in student affairs and higher education. And I guess. Take me back to that point. Go back in time. Take me back to that moment, that moment that you figured out for yourself that the next step for you was graduate school. What was going through your head and what made you choose that graduate school was that next step? Dr. Julie Snyder [00:02:32]: Well, I actually went to Duquesne with the intention of pursuing a professional degree. It was. I wanted to go to law school. And so that next step was always in. In my mindset. And Duquesne ran a program where you could start law school in your senior year of your undergraduate degree. And so I was also. I grew up in the Detroit area, so I picked a campus that was far from home in its location in Pittsburgh. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:02:57]: And so while I was there as a student, I took a. At a law firm while getting involved on campus. And it was very late in my senior year, and it was the night before the lsat, and I was at an event, so I was involved in campus activities, and I was at an event and just really struggling with this idea that I didn't want to go to law school, that it didn't. Practicing the law didn't have the impact, I guess, that I wanted to have when I originally thought about it. And so I was sitting with a mentor, which is a key piece in this. In the process of pursuing graduate work, a mentor who said, do you know you could do this career path and stay within higher education and pursue the master's degree? And I had no idea. And so that was the start of the process. It was my senior year, and I was behind schedule on timelines, but I refused to take a gap year. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:03:52]: And so in that journey, I stumbled into a graduate program that accepted me late out in Pennsylvania, Indiana University of Pennsylvania. And that's how I ended up enrolled there, which was a. I believe everything happens for a reason. And it was a fantastic campus and a fantastic opportunity for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:09]: You know, I think it's important to. To hear what you just said, because sometimes people feel that they are bound into the. The regular norms of applying, of being considered, and if you're outside of that, that there are no options. And what I just heard you say was, no, that is not the case. You know, you can think about things that are outside the norm. To be honest, I did the same thing. I graduated in December of a year, went to a similar program to what you did, but the traditional model at that time for us was a fall start. So there were very few options or very few programs that were willing to take in those students mid year. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: So I guess what I'm saying to you as you are considering graduate school is that don't let the traditional model always constrain you to what you consider when you're thinking about graduate school, because there may be other options for you and it may take you down a little bit of a different path, but still get you to the same point at the end. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:05:13]: Absolutely. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:14]: Now I know that you got through that program and you made that transition. And I guess before we talk about your doctorate, because I know you went to the doctorate. Further down the road is every student, every student, as they are considering graduate school and moving into a graduate school, there is a transition that you go through. Just like when you go from high school into undergrad, you know, you have to learn what it means to be a college student when you go to graduate school. Again, it is a very different type of way of learning. It's a different. There's different expectations, there's different ways of being taught. So talk to me about that transition for you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: And what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and what did you have to do as you went through graduate school to find success throughout the entire journey? Dr. Julie Snyder [00:06:00]: There's absolutely transition. And I can definitely talk about my own experience. I can also say as a supervisor of hundreds of graduate students, that it is real and it is legitimate. And I always told them to wait till October because that's when the transition really hits you. If you start your graduate program in August, October is when you're like, okay, I really now feel the crunch. And there is an elevated degree of expectation academically. And so the workload is more rigorous, more intense, and far more independent even than the undergraduate level. Then there, I think, is the idea that if you are pursuing the graduate degree, while you may have a graduate assistantship, a teaching assistantship, it's a level of preparation and execution. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:06:47]: So you might have a 20 hour a week position, but in order to properly prepare to execute in those 20 hours, it has that additional time constraint. And so time becomes even more, more precious at the graduate level. And the one piece to remember is that your peers are having the same struggles, they are having the same struggles and to really utilize one another to help divide and conquer. And so when we studied for our comprehensive exams, everybody took a major course and, and created the study guide and we shared those mutually, you know, because there isn't enough time to do everything alone. And so having the humility to recognize I can't do this alone. And being comfortable with that and, and really leaning in to find good support networks with your classmates, your cohort, however your program may be structured. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:35]: Again, I love what you just said there because I think that sometimes there's this thought of I have to do it alone and I can't ask for help and I need to prove that I belong here. And that's not the case. Especially in a cohort based program. If you're working along and you hit those comps, if you're hitting them at the same time, which sometimes in a cohort program you do, there's no reason why you cannot all work together to try to lift each other up because all of you want to be successful, all of you want to get to that end point and you want to support each other along the way. So you talk about some of those transitions for yourself. And I guess as you think back to your own graduate experience, what mindset shifts did you have to make to be able to be successful in graduate school? Dr. Julie Snyder [00:08:23]: I had to acknowledge, and this is probably filtered many years later in my language choice is in world. I think there are very few people who are really geniuses, but all of us have ability and academic ability and can be successful and do well academically. And so what the mind shift was about the work ethic and just recognizing that it would be hard work at different points in time and working hard through that and not allowing that struggle. Because sometimes working hard is a struggle to be an indicator of my ability or my self worth. I am not a genius, but I can work hard and I did well academically. And so for graduate students to remember, as you're struggling, it's not because you can't do it. It's because it requires that level of effort to do it well. And I think that's what everyone inherently wants to do, is to do well. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:09:17]: And those are transitions again, back to high school. The people who didn't have to study in high school or didn't have to do much effort in their undergraduate degree, that'll be a transition. And just keep at the forefront that you are capable of doing this and you just have to work hard. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:35]: And graduate school is not always easy. You know it's going to challenge you, it will make you question yourself. And many times students will feel a sense of imposter syndrome that they may not they, especially at the beginning part, but sometimes throughout it. Julie, did you feel that imposter syndrome yourself or did you have a feeling of self doubt through your graduate Studies. And how did you handle it? Dr. Julie Snyder [00:09:58]: Absolutely. And I would say they were probably more significant in my PhD program, but they existed in both degrees because what the master's level, you're coming into a content area that you, that you don't know anything about. Like, my master's degree is so unrelated to my major that you're coming into it. And so you, you question if you have the ability to, to do the work as you're coming through the coursework and as you're learning the practical components through the assistantship, but it's again, acknowledging how you're feeling and not isolating that and remembering that there are others that are feeling that way. So again, leaning into that support network and establishing good networking, finding a good mentor who can help you talk through those feelings of I don't understand why this is the way that it is, or I don't think I can do this, or I'm really struggling here, you know, someone who can be that sounding board. And I do really, really want to emphasize that mentoring relationship because it's that perspective of helping you prioritize. You're going to, everything's important in grad school, and it all is, but it all is at different points in time, and the mentor can help you prioritize so that you're not completely overwhelmed. And again, feeling like an imposter, like, there's no way I can keep up with this, and I'm just making it up as I go along. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:19]: I know you just mentioned the PhD and I want to talk to you a little bit about that because I know that after you got your master's degree, you went off, you worked for a bit, and at some point in those about eight years of working, you made a decision, just like you did at the undergraduate level, to take that next step. And at that time, you were working at Bowling Green State University, and you chose to go into a PhD program at bowling Green State University. But take me back to that point. What made you decide to kind of shake it up and go back to school while you were working and working toward that PhD? Dr. Julie Snyder [00:11:56]: So step one, I think, was taking the second to do that poor soul searching of what do I want out of my career? And so I'd been working in a functional area in resident residence life in housing. By happenstance, that wasn't even my background in my undergraduate level. It was just my first graduate assistantship. And it led into my career, but I knew I didn't want to stay there. I didn't want to stay in that area. And so in examining the pathways, the career pathways, and in talking with mentors, and I'd reached a critical point in my career, the number of years that I needed to make a decision, either a pivot to a different area or to pursue the degree, to broaden my skill set and to look at it. So that was step one is just really pointing your career where you have to think about what's next. I'm not one to be able to plan out the next five years, but it's important to think broader, like what is the end goal or what are the things that I want to be able to achieve in my career, and then finding the timing of when that feels appropriate. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:12:58]: And I'd reached a point in my position where I was bored. And I don't say that meaning I didn't have enough work to do. But there is a level of repetitiveness as you do this work, because everything cycles through the academic year. And so the timing was right. I was ready to learn more, move on, and really think about my career and professional development in a broader scale. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: And I know I mentioned that you did choose to go to Bowling Green State University. There are a lot of different PhD programs that are out there in the country. What made you decide to stay where you were working and doing that degree at the same institution? Dr. Julie Snyder [00:13:37]: I was in intimidated from even before I applied. Like, I was prodded to apply by faculty, and retaking the GRE was a stumbling block for me. I think I postponed applying to the PhD program for a number of years. And so I already had a faculty mentoring relationship before I started the program. And that was important to me. I also knew that I wanted to pursue the PhD full time and really delve into being a student. I didn't want to work full time and take it part time. And that's what I needed for me. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:14:12]: And it was one less transition. So the program had a good reputation. Could I have gone to a program with a better reputation? Absolutely. But it would have added a level of transition for me that would have created more anxiety because I was already kind of anxious about again, can I do this? Do I have the ability to do this? And so that's why I chose not to have to also transition into a new community, into a campus, and feel comfortable. All of that was already there for me by staying on my campus. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now, just like in the master's degree, there's another transition into the doctorate. Talk to me about that transition and you know, the good, the bad, the ugly in regard to what you had to Learn to be able to make sure that you were be getting past that, I'm going to say imposter syndrome, or that feeling of not being ready for it, to getting into the groove and being able to get through the program and be successful in that. Dr. Julie Snyder [00:15:08]: So we had a first semester course in our PhD program which really focuses on the philosophy of education and the foundations of education. And it was that faculty member who flat out said to us, my job is to break down the way that you think and teach you to think like a PhD. And that was the biggest transition, is to really transform the thought process, to not settle with what is, but to continually ask why. To always be in search of a level of truth that is research based, that is that exists through demonstrated findings and whether qualitative or quantitative. And really a level of critical thinking that far surpassed what I'd been asked...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37922545
info_outline
Journey, Not Sprint: Real Talk on Graduate School with Antonio Riggs
08/18/2025
Journey, Not Sprint: Real Talk on Graduate School with Antonio Riggs
Embarking on the journey of graduate school can be daunting, invigorating, and transformative all at once. On a recent episode of the “Victors in Grad School” podcast, hosted by , listeners were treated to an inspiring and candid conversation with , Associate Director of Student Career Advancement and Success at the University of Michigan-Flint. Antonio pulled back the curtain on his own educational journey, offering insights that resonate with anyone considering – or currently undertaking – graduate studies. It’s a Journey, Not a Sprint One of the key themes Antonio shares is that graduate education is a deeply personal and winding journey. Each student’s path is unique, shaped by individual aspirations, challenges, and life circumstances. Antonio himself returned to graduate school after working professionally, motivated by seeing mentors advance in their fields through further education. He emphasizes the importance of setting milestones, staying adaptable, and recognizing that detours and delays are a natural part of the process. Sometimes, reaching your goals will take longer than anticipated, and that’s perfectly okay. Mindset Shifts and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome Graduate-level learning demands a shift in mindset. Antonio candidly discusses the challenge of managing new expectations, particularly the leap from undergraduate to graduate research and academic rigor. He opens up about his own experiences grappling with imposter syndrome and self-doubt, reassuring listeners that these feelings are common. Antonio’s advice? Communication is key. Leaning on faculty, advisors, and your support system can make all the difference. Balancing Act: Life, Work, and Study A recurring message is the challenge of balancing academics, professional responsibilities, and personal life. Antonio shares practical strategies—from effective time management to building a strong support network. Whether it’s relying on family, collaborating with a partner, or carving out personal time for stress relief, his stories illustrate that success is built on both determination and the willingness to ask for help. Practical Skills and Lifelong Networking Throughout the episode, Antonio highlights the invaluable practical skills he developed in graduate school, particularly the power of networking, strong communication, and the ability to apply research and best practices in real-world settings. These aren’t just academic skills—they’re lifelong assets that have continued to serve him professionally and personally. Ready to Be Inspired? If you’re contemplating graduate school, already in the trenches, or guiding students in higher education, this episode is packed with wisdom, relatability, and encouragement. Tune in to hear Antonio Riggs’ full story and walk away with practical advice for finding your stride and building your own “toolbox” for success. Listen to the full episode and start your own journey with insight and support! Ready to explore more? Visit the University of Michigan-Flint’s graduate program offerings and tune in to Victors in Grad School for more inspiring stories and tips. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity every week to be able to talk through things, issues, concerns that you may have, and to be able to help you to be able to develop some tools for your toolbox, find some new tools for your toolbox, and identify ways in which you can be successful in this journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every individual that is thinking about graduate school, that's applied to graduate school, that maybe is in graduate school, are going through their own individual journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: You may have similar things happen to you or alongside with other students in your cohort or in your classes together, but you're going to be dealing with them in the way that works for you. And what my goal is, is every week is to be able to provide you with some new resources, some new things that may allow for you to be able to find more success and more success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that help have gone to graduate school before you and have learned some things along the way. Some of the things might be positive, some of the things might be negative. You never know. But I have an opportunity to be able to learn from them and from what they learned so that you will have an easier time down the road as well. So this week we got another great guest. Antonio Riggs is with us. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Antonio is the Associate Director of Student Career Advancement and Success at the University of Michigan Flint. And he's been at the University of Michigan flint for over 11 years now. But he's also had a wealth of other opportunities along the way that he has done, working with students and helping students in many different ways. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own educational journey to help you in yours. Antonio, thanks so much for being here today. Antonio Riggs [00:02:17]: Hey, thank you for having me. Greatly appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: It is completely my pleasure. Really enjoy being able to talk to people about their own experiences. And I'm really excited to learn a little bit more about yours. And I know that you did all three of your degrees at Saginaw Valley State University, but you did your bachelor's degree in business administration. And then you went off, you worked for a little bit, but at some point, at some point in that time between graduation and about four years later, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue on and work toward a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point where you made that decision for yourself. What made you decide that? And why was it the right time to go to graduate school? Antonio Riggs [00:03:06]: I guess during the time I graduated and I went to work at another institution, and a couple of my mentors were, they've completed their degrees, their MSAs, Master of Arts and Sciences degrees in Student affairs administration. And when you're around people that are in positions that you aspire to be in, through the process of networking, you learn about the different career paths, you learn about the degree programs, and people share their insights. And I kind of had a set to say, hey, I wanted to get a master's degree in the beginning, I wanted to go business all the way up, right? Get a business degree, get an MBA and then get a PhD in business and teach us some core university teaching, you know, business classes. But then I didn't go that route. I really stayed in student affairs. I enjoyed it. And I had lifelong friends that I've met in the student affairs arena. And so I kind of was like, hey, this is my passion. Antonio Riggs [00:04:01]: That's where I want to be. And so I was already a student at Saginaw Valley. I knew the program, I knew the buildings under the layout. So it was what, familiar territory for me. And so I saw that they had kicked off a Master of Arts and Sciences with certificate in Student Affairs Administration. And so that's what led me into that role. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:22]: Before I leave this educational journey that you were on, one question that I have is, I know that after you finished that program, you again, you went, you worked for a few more years working at a couple of other institutions, and then at some point, you decided to go back to school to get an education specialist degree. Talk to me about that. Why an education specialist? Antonio Riggs [00:04:46]: I am a person that like to set goals, and in my goal setting, I like to see my milestones. And so some people will say, yeah, just go jump in a PhD program and, you know, knock out the four to five years and get it over with. But for me, Saginaw Valley, you know, kicked off that MSA program, and I think it was a feeder going into EDD programs, right? The Doctorate of Education programs. And so I think they collaborated with Central, where, hey, you get your specialist from Saginaw Valley, you Can go right to Central Michigan, no issues. Every credit will transfer, and you can knock out the educational doctorate. And so that's kind of where I was at with that mindset of, boom, I do this, I see my milestone, knocked it out in two years and then move forward and go and finish that and educational doctorate degree. And so it's still a process. Things come up and you kind of life takes its bends and turns, but as long as you kind of stay focused on the prize and you complete it, I think you'll still be fine. Antonio Riggs [00:05:54]: And so my original goal was to complete my doctoral degree by 33. And so as life, you know, moved on, I'm 10 years past the deadline now, right. But I still keep it in my forefront. I always go back, look at the different programs. I'm always researching other schools to go to, which one has the best route for me. So it's still in the forefront, and I do plan to complete. But hey, there's no time, there's no exact end date that we have when life begins to life, as the young folks say, right? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:27]: Definitely. Now, you talked about mindset, and I think as you go into different types of degrees, different types of education, you definitely have to have a mindset shift because you're educated in one way as a undergraduate student. And then as you transition in, you have to make some shifts for yourself. What type of mindset shifts did you find yourself having to make to succeed in graduate school? Antonio Riggs [00:06:55]: Managing time effectively. So thinking about my undergrad experience versus the grad experience, I was more heavily involved as a student at the undergraduate level, right. So fraternity member, resident assistant, work study student. And so you always found ways to get involved on campus, but then as you begin to work and then go back to school, you don't have that time to commit to some of the experiences that you did as an undergraduate student. And so managing my time effectively, still staying engaged on a campus level because I was a leader within my fraternity on campus, I was obligated to do mentorship programs, advise the undergraduate chapter, so still stayed in touch there. But I would reduce my level of commitment to that organization while I was on campus. And then, you know, my number one priority is to still put food on the table. So I had to work the 8 to 5 and to make some sacrifices. Antonio Riggs [00:07:55]: Right. So I commuted, and so I just couldn't run home and grab a bite to eat. So most of my experiences during my grad program was to get out of work, grab a bite to eat, sleep in the hallway, and then go to Class. And so I remember as an undergrad, I said, you know, I will never be that person sleeping, you know, in the hallway. And then as a grad student, you know, when you make some of those sacrifices, you find yourself sleeping in the hallway just to get a nap because your class is from 6 to 10pm and then now you have to commute 45 minutes to an hour home at night. So managing time, effectively, prioritizing work, academic processes, and that's kind of where I had to streamline all that stuff and cut out on all the extracurricular activities. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: I talked to a lot of graduate students and as they're starting graduate school, sometimes they feel like they don't belong. They feel kind of like an imposter per se. Did you ever feel that imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies, whether it was at the master's or the specialist level? And how did you handle it? Antonio Riggs [00:09:03]: Yes, I think when I hit that imposter syndrome within the program you would identify either a couple staff members or one or two faculty members that will be there to support you and making sure you communicate your thoughts to your advisor. So for me, my advisor was a faculty member in my program. So it was like a double whammy, right? So I would go talk to the faculty member about academic concerns and then the conversation would evolve into this is how I'm feeling is this program for me, especially when it got to that research process because I don't think the undergraduate experience prepared you for the level of research in that master's program that you would go into. And so that's where my self doubt came into play because I loved my graduate programs. To me, I think they were easier than the undergraduate experience, right? Because it's kind of like you read how do you put things together? And it was more of a articulating what you're learning and you're writing it in a paper versus the test and all of the essays you had to write at the undergraduate level, master's level, everything compounded into an end result. And so I kind of like that piece of it. But the research, I wasn't the best at the formulas. And so making sure I communicate with the faculty, my advisor, they would give me good advice. Antonio Riggs [00:10:29]: Dr. Clark is awesome. She helped me out a lot in that process, keeping me motivated, telling me, you know, things that I can do to stay in the game. So that communication piece, when you, when I felt like I wasn't going to make it and it just got hard, just gotta talk to people and Then once you tell people your mindset, where you're at, some people will come up with resources for you because the professors and staff, they want you to succeed. They don't want anybody to drop out. They don't want anybody to stop out. Basically, if you do, that's kind of like the choice you've made on your own. But I think the faculty and staff across any institution that you decide to go to will be there to support you in any way, shape or form, or within reason. Antonio Riggs [00:11:13]: You just got to communicate. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:14]: So, as I mentioned, I know that there are transitions that happen going from undergrad to a master's degree to a specialist degree. At each of those points, there's different transitions, different expectations, different faculty, different perspectives, et cetera. As you transitioned out of your undergraduate work, out of your professional work, into your first master's degree, then to your specialist degree, you found success in those journeys. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into each of those degrees, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey? Antonio Riggs [00:11:55]: Be present, take an active role in my educational journey and not just let the advisor pick the courses for me. So because I worked in higher education and I was doing a Student Affairs Administration program, the things that I was doing at work transferred into my academic program. And things that I learned in my program, I was able to see it come full swing at work. And so tailoring to set myself up as I implemented new programs as Director of Residence Life, I kind of leveraged those experiences within my academic journey to do some benchmarking, to do some research, to write my papers on what I was experiencing in the workplace. So I was able to tie my academic and my professionalism together to make it more exciting, right? Because I wasn't just reading and writing papers. I was actually doing the work academically, the research piece, and then I would come to work and put it into play. And with both of those programs, they were practicum experiences where. Which is basically like an internship at the graduate level that I had to participate in. Antonio Riggs [00:13:03]: And so that kind of further gave me that I was applying what I was learning academically into the work setting. And so I think that's what allowed me to be successful, is working in the field that I wanted to get a degree in. And it all played out. It came together well for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: Now, you were working full time, you were going to school, you had other commitments and things that you were dealing with. Talk to me about balance, because I know that sometimes Balance goes out the window when you make the decision to go to graduate school. But how did you find balance in being able to be successful in school? Work, family, other personal responsibilities? Work while you were going through those graduate degrees? Antonio Riggs [00:13:50]: Yeah, so when I first completed my master's, I was single, had nothing to do but go to school. Right. I didn't want idle hands, right, because you get distracted when your hands become idle. So I was always staying active, whether if it was at work, you know, you go to work. And then I, you know, came home and I was studying. As I said, I was a part of a couple of different organizations that took up my time as well. And so the balance there was still important, too, because you would get caught up into, you know, the leisure activities of just life. Because I was in school, anytime I got some free time, I went to hang out with some friends. Antonio Riggs [00:14:28]: But everybody needs those stress relievers, right? So I don't want to say, hey, you can't go and engage with friends and others, because that's the balance, right? Making sure you're performing well academically, making sure you're performing well professionally, but still finding time to release. Because grad school is stressful, right? It's a heavy time commitment. You want to do great, you want to meet those deadlines, but still finding time for yourself. Whether if that's just going to a social outing with some friends, some people will, you know, take a weekend getaway to a cabin. I like to fish. I go out and put my feet in the grass and ground or whatever you want to call it, right? To be one with nature so you can relieve that level of stress from the everyday work in grad school. So having that balance of social learning, I think is important. And then when I went and finished my specialist, that's when I was like, hey, let's take it to the next level. Antonio Riggs [00:15:23]: And so me and my wife, we pretty much did this whole tag team with the family. She did third shift. I was first shift. So there was always somebody at home. And she was in school completing her degree as well. So it was kind of like, hey, we're studying together. Everything we did, it was like, all right, let's cook dinner. Boom, we're doing it together. Antonio Riggs [00:15:40]: All right, time to study. Let's study. All right. Hey, I have this test. Can you take care of the kids while I do this? Yes, I'll do that. So having a partner, I think, is important, too. That can give you balance, right? When it comes to your journey, professional, academic, somebody to kind of help you along the way, whether if it's household items, somebody to bounce ideas off of, even though they may not understand what you're talking about in grad school, but at least you're able to voice your thought processes. And sometimes just having somebody to sit there and listen can help you sort some of the ideas or things that is going in your head and then you can problem solve accordingly because...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37860470
info_outline
Balancing Work, Life, and Grad School: Real-World Advice
08/11/2025
Balancing Work, Life, and Grad School: Real-World Advice
Graduate school isn’t just another chapter in your academic story—it’s a transformative journey that shapes your personal and professional life. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," sits down with , Assistant Director of Facility Operations and Risk Management at the University of Michigan–Flint, to explore what it means to pursue graduate education as a working professional. Ervin’s path is both relatable and inspiring. After earning his undergraduate degree in 1991, he began working in higher education, but realized years later that to truly thrive—especially as an adjunct lecturer—he needed to further his education. That realization led him back to school after an 18-year gap, a move he calls “one of the best decisions” of his adult life. His experience offers valuable insights for anyone considering grad school, especially those who may feel it’s “too late” to return. Adapting to Change and Embracing Lifelong Learning One prominent theme from Ervin’s story is embracing change. When he first entered grad school, the world had shifted dramatically—classes were online, technology was central, and Blackboard replaced the typewriters of his college days. By asking questions, seeking support, and choosing in-person classes, Ervin exemplified adaptability and the willingness to step out of his comfort zone. The Importance of Support and Community Ervin’s journey also highlights the value of strong support systems. He credits coworkers, colleagues, and campus resources with providing the motivation and flexibility he needed to succeed. For working professionals, leveraging employer education benefits, as Ervin did, can minimize financial barriers and provide a smoother path forward. Finding Balance and Avoiding Burnout Graduate school requires resilience. Ervin candidly shares the struggles he faced: late nights, technology mishaps, and moments of doubt. His advice? Find balance, rely on time management, and take breaks to recharge. Hobbies like chess and cooking offered him much-needed mental space. Advice for Prospective Students For anyone contemplating graduate school, Ervin urges you not to wait: "The longer you delay, the harder it can be to get back in the groove." Apply yourself fully, build relationships, and surround yourself with people who motivate and support you. Ready for more inspiration and actionable insights? Tune into this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and hear first-hand how perseverance, adaptability, and a strong community can lead to graduate school success! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love that you come back, that you listen, that you are working to prepare yourself for this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Because no matter where you are in thinking about graduate school, applying to graduate school, going to graduate school, wherever you are in this pathway, it is a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: And you're going to find that there are things that you can do along that path to help yourself to find success sooner. And that's what this show is all about. This show is here to help you to be able to make better choices, to be able to find new ways of doing things, to give yourself some tools for your toolbox that will prepare you to find success sooner. That's why every week I bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can share their own experiences, sometimes good, sometimes maybe not so good of things that they learned along the way that can help you to again prepare yourself. This week we got another great guest. Irvin Levy is with us today. And Irvin is the Assistant Director of Facility Operations and Risk Management and Recreational Services at the University of Michigan, Flint. He did his undergraduate work at Central Michigan University and then did his graduate work here at the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: We're going to learn a little bit more about him and about his experiences and his own journey in going to grad school. Ervin, thanks so much for being here today. Ervin Leavy [00:01:56]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you today. I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at Central Michigan University, and at some point during either your undergraduate degree or after graduating, you got an inkling, you got an inkling, you got that itch, you started to scratch it, you decided that you were going to go to graduate school. Take me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school? Ervin Leavy [00:02:31]: Well, I got my Undergrad degree in 1991 from Central Michigan University. I began working here at the university in 2002, and I just had my undergrad degree after about seven years working in higher education. Education. That's when I realized I needed to further my education, especially on the technology side, as I was an Adjunct lecturer. So in 2009, I decided that I was going to go back to school and get my master's degree in technology and education. And that was one of the best moves that I ever made in my adult life was going back to school. Because when I came out in 91, there were not very many computers and we all had typewriters when I was in college. So when I went back to school in 2009, it was to. Ervin Leavy [00:03:17]: Everything was totally different. Work was being done on blackboard, everything was pretty much online. So that was an adjustment period for me. But working in higher education, I felt that was needed in order for me to be successful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: So you decided to continue your education at the University of Michigan Flint. And you probably had some reasons for doing that. And I guess talk to me about the, your decision making and as you were looking at different programs potentially or why you chose not only the University of Michigan Flint, but why educational technology? Ervin Leavy [00:03:50]: Well, at the time I was an adjunct lecturer, I taught a variety of one credit classes. And what I noticed in the classroom was I wasn't that advanced in technology. And I chose that field because I thought it would help me in my teachings. And it did. I learned a lot regarding just working with the disabled. I learned the importance of using closed captions in my teachings. And that was the reason I went. And another reason I went is being an employee here at the university. Ervin Leavy [00:04:25]: There's a excellent tuition reimbursement program, so I had to take advantage of that. And it didn't cost me anything. Only thing I had to pay for was my books. So I couldn't let that opportunity pass me by. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:38]: You know, and that's something that we haven't talked a lot about, even though some people from past shows have talked about that, is that you may be out there, you may be working, and there could be educational benefits that your employer provides you. And I always encourage people to take the time to have a conversation with your human resources office to find out are there opportunities that are available because they could be there. You just have to make sure you understand what the strings that are attached to that money are. So make sure that you're asking the right questions and determine whether or not you want to be bound by whatever the rules are if there is educational money that is available through your employer. Because I've seen people come in and they're, they and it's a great program. And then I've seen others where they may have to stay with the employer for a certain amount of time or the money that they took becomes alone. So you have to watch that and just know what you're getting yourself into, which is great. Now every person goes through a process of transition as they go into graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:49]: You have to kind of figure out for yourself the differences, because there are true differences in moving from being an undergraduate student to working in the workforce to then going back into, for you, going back into graduate school. And at each of those points, there are different transitions. So you had transitioned out of being an undergraduate student into, into full time work and then you decided to come back into school. So there's a transition there. So talk to me about these transitions and what you had to do when you transitioned into graduate school to find success and what you had to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school experience. Ervin Leavy [00:06:31]: Well, when I went to graduate school, I had been out of school for about 18 years. So when I decided to go back, everything was totally different. Like I said, everything was online, all assignments were on blackboard. We didn't use blackboard when I was an undergrad back in the 90s. And a part of what really helped me was I asked questions and I made sure I know what was helpful for me is instead of taking online classes, I preferred to go sit in the classroom. And I went and I sat in the front row for every class and tried to learn as much as I could. And I asked questions that was important. And I had some wonderful advisors and some wonderful professors that walked me through, which was very helpful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:17]: Now there are times, especially after going back after so many years, I talk to students all the time that have a feeling of imposter syndrome and self doubt that they fade as they go through graduate school, especially as they enter into graduate school. Did you feel that for yourself? And if so, how did you handle it? Ervin Leavy [00:07:39]: I had doubts, but I knew I needed to do it in order to be a better adjunct lecturer. I had a lot of doubts and I think just taking that step and just pushing forward and pushing through it, it became easier for me. But what I learned in the master's program is there was a lot more flexibility in the master's program. A lot of the students that were in those programs had families, they were working full time. So the flexibility that was provided for us was so helpful in undergrad. I don't recall having that type of flexibility. I recall a couple semesters instead of taking two, three credit courses, I took a three credit course and they let me break down the other three credits by doing one at a time, which was really helpful. And I was able to still work full time and go to school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:32]: When you're balancing so many things, sometimes it's hard to keep that motivation going. How did you stay motivated through challenging times, challenging semesters, you know, and get to the finish line in the end? Ervin Leavy [00:08:45]: That was tough because there were times when I really wanted to just throw the towel in and give up there. There was one incident where I was up till 4 in the morning working on some stuff and I ended up losing all of the work and I ended up going to bed and I got back up about 8am I contacted my professor and told him what happened and I just got back to it. But I was motivated. I really had to finish the task. And I just think that's probably one of my stronger points is completing tasks and meeting deadlines and those strengths really helped me through the program. I was not going to give up. I had friends that went through grad school. That was motivation for me. Ervin Leavy [00:09:27]: Also I had co workers to do it. So that was motivation for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:31]: I talk about balancing and you are working full time and you have family, you have friends, you've got lots of competing demands when it came to getting through your academic program. And every student has to find balance for themselves. Talk to me about balance and how you were able to find that optimal balance that allowed for you to be able to get through graduate school school in an optimal way. Ervin Leavy [00:10:02]: I think the most important thing is that I was already working here at the university and my supervisors allowed me that flexibility where if I had a class at 4 o' clock, I could leave my office and go to class and come back and I, you know, work maybe a couple hours later. That was very helpful for me. But I also had to go above and beyond. I had to stay up later. I had to give up some weekends. I remember a class I took, we had be here Saturdays for maybe four or five weeks in a row for half the day. And that was the class. But I had to make that sacrifice. Ervin Leavy [00:10:38]: But just working here at the university and already being on campus, that relieves so much pressure, which I know there are others who probably wouldn't have that luxury. So I was fortunate to already be on campus and was able to be flexible with work. And yeah, there were times when I even did homework while I was in the office. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: You talked a little bit about times where you felt that burnout and you definitely had to push through. As you talked about how did you end up in the end avoiding burnout or recovering when you did feel overwhelmed. Ervin Leavy [00:11:14]: My doctor talked to me years ago. And he gave me some advice that stuck with me to this day. And it's over 20 years ago. He said, urban, if there are things you can change, change them. If you can't change them, don't worry about it. So I stopped worrying about all the stressful moments. I couldn't let it break me down. I would just take a break. Ervin Leavy [00:11:37]: I love to play chess, so I would go play some chess just to get my mind away from everything. I love to cook, too. I would go cook and just put everything to the side and regroup, recharge and. And I created a good balance. Just had to move some things around in my personal life. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:53]: One of the things that important is the connections that you make, the connections that you make with your peers, but also with your faculty. Talk to me about relationships that you were able to build both with faculty and peers, and how did they impact. Ervin Leavy [00:12:09]: You as a student, my peers, I had some co workers here that were in the master's programs also. And we all stuck together. We motivated each other. And being an employee of the university, I was a familiar face. So I was pretty well connected. And the support that I received was just unlimited. And all of that played a factor in my success. And when you talk about relationships that I've built over the years, I'm very thankful and grateful for a lot of my colleagues and the people that motivated me. Ervin Leavy [00:12:43]: And what I learned, too, is about schooling. I feel like anything you put your mind to, if you apply yourself, surround yourself with people that can help you, you can accomplish those goals. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:56]: What would you say is the most valuable thing that you learned outside the classroom during your graduate school experience that helped you in the graduate school outside of the classroom? Ervin Leavy [00:13:08]: I think my organizational skills got a little better. I've always been an organized person. But when I got into those programs and got another 40 to 50%, it was almost two. Having two jobs, I really had to use my time efficiently and being efficient with every moment. And when I finished the program, I was a more efficient worker in recreational services because of those experiences. I'm very efficient with my time now, where before I don't think I was as efficient, but that's what I learned outside of the classroom. It's just even more structured. And being a former athlete, that's where I learned structure and discipline. Ervin Leavy [00:13:50]: But going to school and working full time, it's really the same thing. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:54]: What's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school? Ervin Leavy [00:13:59]: I had a lot of people tell me I should go to graduate school. But I had been out of school for so long, it was tough for me to get motivated. What I think I wish someone would have told me would probably be, you need to get it done now, don't wait. Get it done now. And I wish I would have done it earlier. You know, I got here, the university in 2002, and I didn't take advantage of the opportunity to go back until 2009. So like I said, I had been out of school for 18 years before I finally decided to do it. And people told me all the time, you should go back. Ervin Leavy [00:14:36]: You need to do it now. Don't wait. The longer you wait, the more difficult it'll be to. To get back acclimated. And it was tough. I struggled in the beginning because blackboard, all of that was new to me, but I worked my way through it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:48]: As you think about other students that are thinking about going to graduate, what are some tips that you might offer to these other students, no matter if they were doing education or any other field that would help them find success sooner? Ervin Leavy [00:15:01]: Do your best. Apply yourself. Apply yourself 100% as if you're going to work every day. And that's what was helpful for me. I applied myself and take it seriously. When I went back in 2009, I was one of the older students, but I said, I'm going to sit in the front row every day. And I saw there were a lot of students that I didn't think were really, really taking things serious. And when assignments were due, they struggled. Ervin Leavy [00:15:27]: When group projects were due, they struggled. Apply yourself. Do your best. And I'm proud to say I finished my Master's program with a perfect gpa. I had never done that, but it was because I never applied myself either. I was a good student, but I never applied myself like I did when I went into the Master's program. And that's the best GPA that I ever had in my life. But it also helped me as a professional because I apply myself the same way in everything I do now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:54]: Well, Irvin, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, and I wish you all the best. Ervin Leavy [00:16:00]: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:02]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at .
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37668460
info_outline
Navigating Grad School: Advice on Success, Balance, and Overcoming Doubt
08/04/2025
Navigating Grad School: Advice on Success, Balance, and Overcoming Doubt
Graduate school is often called a journey, and for good reason. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host sits down with , the Provost and Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack what it truly takes to succeed as a graduate student. Whether you’re contemplating applying, awaiting your first semester, or knee-deep in research, the experiences and advice shared in this episode offer practical guidance and inspiration for every stage of the process. One of the key themes Dr. Parrill discusses is intentional decision-making—knowing why you’re choosing graduate school and how it aligns with your long-term goals. She recounted how, as an undergraduate at Central Michigan University, her co-op experience at Dow Chemical revealed to her that advanced degrees opened doors to more autonomy and interesting projects, prompting her to further her education immediately, rather than settling into a job right away. Dr. Parrill also shares her experience of choosing the right graduate program, highlighting the importance of considering personal and professional factors. Her decision to attend the University of Arizona was influenced not only by its academic offerings but also by where both she and her then-fiancé could study complementary fields on the same campus. Preparation is another recurring theme. Academic preparation, such as building a solid foundation during undergrad and leveraging work experiences, paid off for Dr. Parrill—especially when it came to placement exams and early graduate coursework. She stresses the importance of treating graduate school as a full-time commitment, dedicating oneself not just in the classroom but also through research, networking, and even tutoring or mentoring others. The transition to graduate-level work often brings feelings of imposter syndrome and self-doubt. Dr. Parrill’s candid insights into these struggles—and the importance of leaning on mentors and building supportive networks—underscore that such challenges are common, but surmountable. Finally, Dr. Parrill shares wisdom on balancing responsibilities and being intentional about time management, whether you’re juggling teaching, research, work, or family obligations. Her advice, derived from mentoring students with complex lives and her own experience, rings true for anyone seeking to thrive in graduate school and beyond. Are you considering graduate school, or are you currently navigating its demands? Tune into this episode for actionable tips, personal stories, and the reassurance that the path, while challenging, is absolutely rewarding. Listen to the full episode to glean more practical advice and inspiration to fuel your graduate school journey! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, we are here to talk with you, to work with you on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey, because it truly is a journey. And every one of us, as we think about graduate school, have to go through a process to be able to prepare ourselves, to work through the process of not only applying to graduate school, getting into graduate school, but getting through graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: And to do that, there are things that you can do to find success in that journey, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences, people from different walks of life that have gone before you. They've gone to graduate school, they've been successful, they've come out the other end mostly unscathed, and they have been able to learn things along the way. Learn things about themselves, but learn things about the process of going to graduate school and what they had to do to find success. This week, we've got another great guest. Dr. Abby Parrill is with us today, and Dr. Perel is the Provost and Vice Chancellor for Academic affairs at the University of Michigan Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]: And Dr. Parrill joined the University of Michigan Flint about a month ago. She has transitioned from working at the University of Memph for a number of years, and now she's here, and I'm really excited to have her here to talk to you about her own experiences and to be able to help you better understand some of the things that she had to learn along the way. Dr. Pero, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:01:46]: Absolutely. Thank you for the invite. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Well, I really appreciate being able to talk with you today. I'm always excited to be able to learn from other people and the journey that they're on. And I know that when you were in your undergraduate work, at some point back at Central Michigan University, there was a point in time. There was a point in time where you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue your education, weren't going to just finish that degree and go off and work and maybe go over to Dow Chemical down the road, but you made a decision to continue on. Can you take me back to that point and what was going through your head and what made you Decide that that was the right step at that point. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:02:25]: Absolutely. So it's funny you mentioned Dow Chemical, because I was actually in the cooperative education program at Dow Chemical while I was an undergraduate student. Great learning experience. Let me see how to use what I was learning in the classroom in a real chemistry lab. But one of the things I learned was that the chemists that had doctoral degrees had a lot more autonomy and more interesting projects. And those with bachelor's degrees tended to do very routine, repetitive things that did require chemistry knowledge. And I enjoyed doing those routine, repetitive things as an undergraduate student because it allowed me to get really good at a few of the skills I had learned as an undergraduate. But I couldn't see myself doing that for 10, 15, 20 more years. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:03:10]: And there had been a panel held, sponsored by Central Michigan University, I think it was our student affiliates of the American Chemical Society sponsored a panel about graduate school, med school, or work as being some of the common directions someone might go after right after completing the bachelor's degree. And there were people on the panel who had started employment first and then gone to graduate school and others who had gone straight to graduate school. And they talked about kind of the challenge of getting into the work environment, getting used to a particular salary, and then stepping back to graduate school and going back to that kind of restricted income as being a very sincere challenge that they faced. And I decided that since I knew I didn't want to remain at the bachelor's level for my entire career, that I was just going to grit my teeth and move on and get the graduate degree right away. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:09]: Now, one of the things that I always am interested in is, you know, you decided to go and continue your education, like you mentioned, and you ended up applying to schools. But I'm sure that you went through a process of exploring schools to try to find the right fit, and you ended up finding a fit at the University of Arizona doing organic chemistry. Talk to me about that process that you went through for yourself to explore, but also to identify that final decision of the University of Arizona. And what was it about the University of Arizona that made it the best fit for you? Dr. Abby Parrill [00:04:48]: So searching for graduate schools was very different when I was searching for graduate schools than it would be for today's prospective graduate students. My first shopping for graduate schools was to go to the big rings that our undergraduate institutions had bolted on the wall. And they had big paper flyers hanging from these rings. And each flyer was for a specific graduate program in chemistry. And they had little tear off cards, and you could fill out your contact information and put them in the mail. And they would mail you information much faster. Now to use the all of the wonderful online tools you have, you can go to a website and shop instead of having to send off a card and wait. But another avenue of exploration is very much relevant today, and that's to talk to your faculty. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:05:36]: I asked some of my faculty. I'm looking at this three foot thick pile of programs and I have no idea how to choose. And I got a piece of interesting advice from one of my undergraduate faculty members who said, try somewhere really different for graduate school. Because graduate school is a limited period of time. Once you graduate, you have the opportunity to stay near where you go to graduate school or go somewhere else if you don't like that that region of the country or that part of the world. And I found that very interesting advice. And so as I was actually applying to graduate schools, my not then yet husband and I each agreed we were going to pick several schools. We were both going to apply to each other's schools as well as our own. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:06:25]: And we were going to see where we got our acceptances and then decide. And out of the schools I had visited and the ones that I had acceptances at that my husband was interested in, my future husband at the time, now currently husband, we narrowed it down to the University of Arizona and the University of Pennsylvania. I was going to go in chemistry, he was going to go in pharmacology and toxicology. And at the University of Pennsylvania, those two were on two different campuses, two hours apart. And at the University of Arizona, they were on the same campus across a major street from each other. So maybe a 10 minute walk. And given that we both liked both of the institutions and our respective programs at those institutions, we opted for the let's go where we can be together. And the desert Southwest is about as different from Michigan in terms of climate and native flora and fauna as you can get. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:21]: So it was an opportunity to try someplace really different. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:07:24]: Definitely very different. And I'm sure that along the way you definitely learned a few things about the the desert Southwest versus here and things that you like or don't like as well as when you're in the Midwest and things that you like or don't like. And I guess one of the things that I think about as you made that move, when you made that move down to the desert Southwest, there's things that you can do to prepare yourself both academically, professionally, personally to make a move like that, as you think back to that move for yourself, how did you prepare academically, professionally, personally, before starting graduate school to help you to make that transition into graduate school? Dr. Abby Parrill [00:08:08]: Well, I will say, while I didn't intend it to be preparation at the time, participating in that cooperative education internship opportunity where I could use chemistry daily in a work environment rather than just study it academically, and that repetition of a certain subset of chemistry was phenomenally important. So when I headed off to graduate school, the chemistry department administered a set of, let's call them placement exams. That isn't what they were called, but we'll call them that. And the ones I did the best on were the ones that overlapped with not just my academic experience, but my work experience. So that opportunity to use what I had learned and use it over and over and over really did cement what I had learned and make it so that I could be very successful on that subset of what I had learned as an undergraduate really shifted it into long term memory. And so the opportunity to go back and review things and use things in a different way, I would say the more you can view your entire undergraduate curriculum as connected and building transferable skills and use them from one class into the next, or find work experiences where you can use some of those things that turned out to be one of the best preparations I could have done, even though I didn't think about it that way at the time. And really the move across the country, there's no preparation for that. I will say I learned from the experience though, because I have now moved across the country again for the third time in maybe fourth time in my life. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:09:51]: And one thing I didn't do that first time that I have gotten better at every time is don't pack things you're going to throw away when you unpack them. Start your packing early enough that you're really being discriminating about what you pack. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:06]: That's great advice. I think everybody could probably learn from that and not just if you're going to graduate school. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:10:12]: Yeah. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:13]: When you transition into graduate school, there is a difference. There's a difference between the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student as a way that and the way that you're taught as a graduate student. There's different expectations, different perspectives. And as I mentioned at the beginning, you did get your degree, so you were successful getting through that degree. And I guess as you think about your transition in to the academic work, talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success and what are some things that you had to do to maintain that success. As you went through the entire academic experience. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:10:51]: Yeah. So as an undergraduate student you will probably take, probably will have taken more classes at a time than you will as a graduate student, but that doesn't mean you should treat it as less work. So I treated my graduate experience the way I had treated the combination of my full time undergraduate program and my halftime internship at dow and really treated graduate school as the same time commitment. And less of my time was in class, but more of it was invested in other aspects of being successful. Reading literature in my field that I was studying so that I could learn what's going on in my field, find things that I could apply into my research project, just be generally well informed. I did some tutoring in part I did it for some money on the side, but it was also to really repeat those kind of early chemistry concepts by helping an undergraduate student learn them for the first time to make sure I was always fresh and I always had that solid foundation to build from. It also gave me some one on one teaching and mentoring experience that has been tremendously useful throughout my career. And so treat graduate school absolutely as at least a full time job, if not more. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:12:16]: Even if you weren't scheduled full time, find useful things to do that will help you advance through the program in the other part of that full time experience. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:27]: You know, one of the things that I think about when you talk about that is the fact that as you make that switch for yourself, many times graduate students talk to me about a feeling of imposter syndrome, especially as you become a graduate student, because you're looked at in a different way and you're held at a different standard than you are as an undergraduate student. And especially if you're in a PhD program where maybe you're being asked to teach or do high level research, there's expectations that are there. Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies and how did you handle it? Dr. Abby Parrill [00:13:06]: Self doubt? Yes. I don't think I knew the word imposter syndrome when I was a graduate student. I had been academically successful. I knew how to learn in a classroom. But it's different when you are asked to be creative and develop a project and contribute to a project. And it can feel overwhelming that how can I go look in the literature in my field and find what's missing, what projects still need to be done. How can I add something to this discipline when there's 500 journals and I'm 50 years behind? Well, hundreds of years behind. There's so much to Learn to know how my project that I'm supposed to be generating to be the basis for either a thesis or a dissertation. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:13:52]: How can I decide what my value add to the field is going to be? That certainly felt overwhelming. And luckily my first challenge at developing a project proposal was actually within the context of a class. So it wasn't necessarily my dissertation project. That was my first challenge to create my own project. And so the field was narrowed to the top topic of the class. And, and the t. The professor did a really nice job of giving us some strategies of how to identify a project that might need to be done. So there was a lot of guidance. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:14:29]: And so what I would say to anyone who's feeling overwhelmed and, and like you don't know how to start. You're going to have a graduate committee, you're going to have a major professor or a mentor. Go to them, share how you're feeling and ask for some strategies on how to get started. It's, it's okay to lean on your mentors. I have leaned on mentors through my entire career. And as I transition into my new role as provost, I had a one year opportunity to try out the role at a different institution as an interim. But trust me, I leaned on prior provosts that were still at my institution. I leaned on the president at the University of Memphis. Dr. Abby Parrill [00:15:08]: Now I'm leaning a little bit on the chancellor. As I, as I onboard into my new role. I still have mentors and I'm not going to say how long I've been in my career, but it's been a while. Or to borrow from the south, it's been a minute. And those mentors, I think can be tremendous supporters and they can support you better if you share a little bit of that vulnerability about how you feel overwhelmed because then they know kind of how to, how to reassure you and share maybe an experience where they felt overwhelmed and how they overcame it, but also some strategies to, to, to, to get going. Once you get going and you start making progress, it changes a lot. You, you see some progress, you say, oh, I can do this and a mentor can help you on that path to, to making some progress that helps you feel like you belong and, and that you were admitted to graduate school because you really are capable of it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: You know, earlier you said that someone told you it is a finite amount of time and it truly is a finite amount of time. When you're in graduate school, it is a finite amount of time. There are that are going to be thrown your way and you're going to be asked to learn a lot in that short amount of time. It may look like it's a long amount of time, but you're going to find very quickly that it goes very fast. Now, as you went through your own graduate experience, as you mentioned, you were there with your significant other, and not everybody has that experience, but everyone has to learn how to balance. Everyone has to learn how to balance school, work, family, and any other personal responsibilities that they may have in their life, while trying to also focus on why they're there, which is the academic experience. Talk to me about how you balanced all of those competing...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37471965
info_outline
Getting Ready For the Fall Deadline - See You Next Week!
07/28/2025
Getting Ready For the Fall Deadline - See You Next Week!
Hello everyone, Chris here with Victors in Grad School. I wanted to give you a quick update that we’re taking a short pause this week from releasing a new episode. Our Office of Graduate Programs is in full gear preparing for the Fall 2025 application deadline, and that means I need to shift my focus just for a few days to make sure everything is running smoothly for our prospective students. We'll be back next week with more great conversations and insights to help you navigate your graduate school journey. In the meantime, let this serve as your reminder: check those deadlines! Whether you're applying to UM-Flint or another institution, staying ahead of the timeline is a huge part of setting yourself up for success. If grad school is part of your future goals, take the next step—get that application in, reach out to programs with questions, and keep moving forward. Your future self will thank you. Talk to you soon!
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37471750
info_outline
Graduate School Success: Jackie Halligan on Passion and Persistence
07/21/2025
Graduate School Success: Jackie Halligan on Passion and Persistence
Are you thinking about graduate school, in the midst of your studies, or reflecting on your own academic journey? If so, the latest episode of the “Victors in Grad School” podcast is one you won’t want to miss! Hosted by , this engaging episode features , Human Resources professional at the University of Michigan-Flint, who offers a candid look into her path through academia and into a thriving HR career. The Journey is Unique for Everyone Right from the start, Dr. Lewis reminds us: graduate education is a journey, not a race. Jackie’s story perfectly illustrates this. After earning her Bachelor’s in Employee Relations at Michigan State University, she worked in the field before deciding to pursue a master’s degree. What sparked her return to the classroom? Mentorship and practical advice during an undergrad internship made it clear that a graduate degree was the “golden ticket” for advancing in human resources. Finding the Right Fit Jackie emphasizes the importance of researching programs to find the best fit. She didn’t simply chase prestige—she sought a university with a top-tier HR program, ultimately returning to Michigan State for her master’s in labor and industrial relations. Her advice to prospective students: visit campuses, explore programs, and choose the environment where you feel most comfortable and supported. Preparation and Persistence Lead to Success Jackie credits her undergraduate experience with teaching her how to study, manage time, and persevere through academic challenges—skills that were crucial for succeeding in grad school. She highlights the unique benefits of a smaller graduate cohort, where close relationships with professors and peers created a supportive network. Applying Graduate Education in the Real World Throughout her career—in manufacturing and academia—Jackie has leaned on her social science background, which helped her empathize, communicate, and balance employee and company interests. She stresses that passion is more important than chasing a paycheck. Decades into her HR career, she still finds her work deeply rewarding. Final Advice for Future Graduate Students Jackie’s overarching message is clear: Find your passion, research your options thoroughly, and set yourself up for success by choosing a graduate program that’s the right fit for you—not just the one with the highest salary prospects. Eager to learn more and be inspired by Jackie’s story? Listen to the full episode of “Victors in Grad School” and start charting your own path to graduate school success! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week you and I are on a journey. I say that every week. But it truly is the case that education and the journey, the what you're doing right now, whether you're at the very beginning just starting to think about this, or you're maybe you've already applied and you've gotten accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school, it is a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: And from the just ideation stage, where you're just thinking about it all the way to the completion stage can take a short period of time, it can take a long period of time. It really is determinant on where you are at your point, at the point in which you are today. And every person is at a different point, and it can take people different amounts of time to be able to get to that education. This podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. It is here to be able to help you learn about things that you can do to be successful in this process, whether it's applying, whether it's going through graduate school, whatever it may be. I love every week being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school before you, that can share their own experiences about what worked, maybe what didn't work as well as things that they learned along the way. And today, today we've got another great guest. Jackie Halligan is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: And Jacqui works at the University of Michigan Flint in the Human Resources office. And she has her own education journey that led her not only into professional work, but also to the University of Michigan ultimately over the last few years that she's been here. So I'm really excited to be able to talk with her today, to learn from her and to have you learn from her experiences as well. Jackie, thanks so much for being here. Jackie Halligan [00:02:04]: I'm excited. Thank you, Chris, for the invitation. I appreciate. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Well, it is definitely my pleasure and I'm excited to be able to talk to you today. And as I said, it is a journey that everyone goes on when they go and make a decision to go to graduate school. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University, you got a Bachelor of Arts in Employee Relations and then you went off, you worked for a little Bit of time there, there was a point, but there had to have been a point in time, whether it was during undergraduate work, whether it was during that, when you were working, where you said to yourself, I need to keep going. I need to get some more education to get to where I want to be. Can you bring me back in time and talk to me about that period, that point, and what was the spark that made you make that decision? Jackie Halligan [00:02:55]: So if I go back actually to my undergraduate experience, I did two internships, one of which was at the city of Flint, actually in their labor relations department. And the director of labor relations at that time was getting his master's from Michigan State in labor relations. And his advice to me was that human resources is a very. Now, this was a while ago, but human resources is a very difficult field to break into. And that he felt it was important to get a master's degree to really be able to work in the field and have a good job. And he said to me, but once you get your master's degree, you'll be set, you'll have a great career, you'll do well for yourself. But it really is kind of like the, you know, the entry ticket, the golden ticket, as they call it, that to get a good start and get a good career in human resources. And so obviously, these number of years later, that's something that still resonates with me and certainly was a piece of the very important puzzle for me to consider graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:51]: I know that ultimately you made the decision to go back to Michigan State to get a master's degree in labor and industrial relations. And there are many programs that are out there. You could have selected any of those programs. So as you were working and just making those decisions about where you wanted to go, what you wanted to do to be able to make that next step. Talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what made you ultimately decide that Michigan State was the place where you wanted to go? Jackie Halligan [00:04:24]: So I was probably a little bit different than other people in high school. I knew what I wanted to do. Probably a senior. I mean, it wasn't like I was a freshman, but probably by when I was a senior and I was looking at programs, I actually came across what at the time was gmi, which is now Kettering, they had a labor relations program. And I was researching and reading about it and just that was it. Like it just clicked and it made sense. And so when I started to really think about going into undergrad and wanting to study labor relations or human resources at that Time there weren't a lot of HR programs that you could get a degree in. And Michigan State was actually one of the top, still is one of the top schools in the country. Jackie Halligan [00:05:04]: You can get a human resources management or labor relations degree. And so I knew going into school, even as a freshman, that's what I was going to study. I, I've done it now for decades, quite frankly, I've never wavered from wanting to work in hr. So I just sort of did my research, found that Michigan State was one of the best universities at that time in the country to study this. And that's where I went. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:27]: Simple as that. And the thing that is interesting is I think that, as you said, you may be a little unique because not every student knows that they want to do human resources right from the get go as they go into college. And as you go through, through college, as you go through your undergrad, you move into your graduate degree, there is a different way in which you are educated, different expectations, different perspectives, different ways of learning. And you were successful in going through that graduate work and then going back out into the world after that and taking that knowledge into the workplace. Every individual has to find their path for themselves. They have to find the way in which that they can be successful in that transition, not only into graduate school, but through graduate school. So for you, as you think back to your graduate education, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you stepped into that graduate work, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate education journey? Jackie Halligan [00:06:32]: I actually would go back to undergrad, which set me up for success, because when I was in high school, I used to be able to get my homework done and never have to like, crack a book or do homework, as they call it these days. And so in undergrad, I had to teach myself to study. I didn't know how to study. And I never been taught, never had to learn. And so in undergrad, learning how to study, how to read, how to focus, how to stay dedicated, how to set your priorities, know everything that's going on from your class perspective, and when tests are and papers are due, that probably set me up in the best way to succeed in graduate school was just the fundamental of knowing how to study. I tell my children I struggled in undergrad in trigonometry, I'd never had it. And I, for whatever reason, the professor and I just couldn't, like, I couldn't grasp his teaching. It just didn't work for me. Jackie Halligan [00:07:23]: And I ended up Teaching myself trigonometry. I sat in the library for 13 hours at Michigan State, started on page one and taught myself trigonometry before the end of the semester. So just learning how to study, I think was important for me. But then I think about like in grad school specifically, and what were the factors that would help me succeed. While Michigan State is a obviously very large university and you get into those accounting classes in undergrad, you might have 200, 300 students. Graduate school, especially labor and industrial relations, is a relatively small school and they have about 100 students carrying on through the year. It's a one year program, or was at the time, and they would accept about 100 students each year. So it was a relatively small program. Jackie Halligan [00:08:07]: So there you get to know the dean. And it was a graduate school. The undergrad was in social sciences. So this was dedicated grad school. So you get to know the dean, you get to know the professors, you develop very strong relationships with your co students, your peers in the courses, because you, quite frankly, you, you see the same students day in and day out. Many of you are in, you might be in the same class three or four times with, you know, multiple individuals. So I think for that, for me it was more the, the uniqueness or the style, kind of the small scale of the program, that sort of personalized approach where they knew you, you knew them. And so like if anything ever came up, you could go talk to the professor and he or she would listen and understand if you were facing a challenge and try to work with you. Jackie Halligan [00:08:51]: So I think that for me was probably the most important key to success was that small scale. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:56]: I know that as you completed that degree, you went off, you worked in a number of different places over your career, you ended up here. As you think back to the education that you in your graduate degree, how do you find that you pull from that education on a daily basis? Jackie Halligan [00:09:13]: So both of my degrees technically are from the College of Social Science. So I have a lot of background in psychology, sociology, economics. And so I think I've looked at my background. I've spent a lot of time in manufacturing, US based manufacturing companies. So a lot of time spent in employee relations and so that sort of more social focus and developing relationships, being transparent, communicating, you know what you can when you can. I have people tell me like, Jackie, you can talk to anybody. Like I can go out on the shop floor and I can talk to somebody. I can talk to the Chancellor here very comfortably at UFM Flint. Jackie Halligan [00:09:50]: So I can kind of scale everybody and Talk to people in a manner that makes them hopefully feel comfortable. So I think for me it was more the social science part, an aspect of my degree that helped me connect with people and also be empathetic and understand when people are facing challenges. I actually had a peer of mine. This was literally like 20 plus years ago. I was leaving one company and going to another. And as I was leaving, one of my peers said, jackie, you from an HR perspective are the best person I've worked with to balance the company interest with the employee interests. And that's a fine line when you try to understand what's important to the employee and how can we help them succeed and have a great experience here. But also what is the company trying to achieve and how do you balance those two out? Because they're not always in parallel. Jackie Halligan [00:10:38]: They're not working in harmony all the time. So how do you balance that, maybe even be conflicting interests and try to find that best solution? And so I think all of that from my degree and that kind of mindset of social sciences helped me pretty much throughout my career. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:53]: As you think back to your graduate education and you think about the things that you had to do to find success, and you think about other students that are maybe thinking about graduate school, whether it's in human resources or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Jackie Halligan [00:11:17]: You know, one piece of advice that I give people is some people will talk about what I'll call chasing the money. Like, oh, I want to go study this because I'll earn, you know, good money and I'll make a good wage and I'll have a great way of life. And I always say, find your passion. Like, I've been doing human resources for 35 years and I just moved to Flint about. Back to Flint area about less than three years ago. And I really thought about, like, what do I want to do? It was an opportunity for me to do something different if I wanted to. And I actually took some time and reflected on it and I said, you know what? I still want to work in HR 30 plus years later. This is what I want to do. Jackie Halligan [00:11:52]: So I think for me, the most important thing is find that passion. Find what you enjoy. That's going to get you up in the morning, get you excited. You're going to find it rewarding. Don't chase the paycheck. It's not worth it. So I think that's it. And I think, you know, going back to what I sort of said about, you know, Michigan State and the graduate school is do your research, you know, look at multiple options, look at multiple universities, look at their programs, go visit the campuses if you haven't done that yet, and find where you feel. Jackie Halligan [00:12:20]: I hate to use the term home, but, you know, find where you feel most at home and where you can most likely succeed. Because pre grad and graduate school are hard, hard work and you want to make sure that you're setting yourself up for success. And I think finding the right fit from a program perspective is most important. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:38]: Well, Jackie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I completely agree with you on that finding that right fit and being able to do what you have to do to be able to take that next step. So thank you for sharing all of that and I truly wish you all the best. Jackie Halligan [00:12:55]: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:57]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at .
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37471685
info_outline
From Community Leader to MBA: Milanna Jones’ Journey Through Graduate School
07/14/2025
From Community Leader to MBA: Milanna Jones’ Journey Through Graduate School
Embarking on the path to a graduate degree is a transformative journey, full of decisions, challenges, and opportunities for growth. In a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host sits down with , a city council member for the City of Pontiac and a recent MBA graduate from the University of Michigan-Flint, to delve into what it really takes to succeed in graduate school and how it can shape your professional and personal life. The Power of Purposeful Decision-Making One of the core themes of Milanna’s story is purposeful decision-making. After completing her undergraduate degree, Milanna knew she wanted more than just academic credentials; she sought practical, strategic leadership skills to amplify her efforts in community leadership and nonprofit work. Her experience highlights the importance of understanding your “why” before taking the leap into grad school. Milanna emphasizes that taking time to reflect on what you hope to gain—beyond simply career advancement—can help clarify the right program and concentration for you. Resilience and Prioritization Milanna’s journey wasn’t without challenges. Just two years before starting her MBA, she faced a life-threatening medical event that led to a disability. Her story is a testament to the power of resilience and prioritization. Through deliberate time management—scheduling dedicated days for reading, assignments, collaboration, and, most importantly, self-care—she was able to thrive academically while navigating significant personal challenges. Her advice? “Prioritize yourself in this process, because you are the only thing that’s going to get you through this.” Building Connections and Skills for Real-World Impact The episode also explores how the right program can foster meaningful connections with peers and professors, both locally and nationwide. Milanna shares how her concentration in organizational leadership equipped her with vital skills in policy analysis, negotiation, and team motivation—skills she now uses daily in her role on city council and in nonprofit initiatives. Looking Beyond the Finish Line Finally, Milanna encourages prospective grad students to focus less on the distant goal of graduation and more on the growth that can happen each semester. By setting incremental goals and remaining open to new experiences and knowledge, you can maximize what you take away from your studies. Milanna’s story is a powerful reminder that graduate school is about more than just earning a degree; it’s about shaping who you are and how you impact the world. Ready to be inspired? Tune in to this episode of Victors in Grad School and start your own journey with a fresh perspective. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School. Milanna Jones [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to. Milanna Jones [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week, every week. I love being on this journey with you, and I call it a journey. I know I do, every week. But it is truly a journey because no matter where you are, you're thinking about graduate school. Whether it's you're at the very beginning, you're just starting out that process where you're thinking for yourself, is this the right thing for you? Or you could be further along in the process. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: Maybe you applied, maybe you got accepted, you're getting ready to start graduate school. Or maybe you're in graduate school and you see that light at the end of the tunnel and you're figuring out what you're going to do next. Wherever you are in this journey, there are things that you can do to be successful. And that's why this show exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences, different backgrounds that can share with you the journey that they went on as they got their own graduate degree. And today we got another great guest. Milanna Jones is with us, and Milanna Jones is a city council member for the city of Pontiac, and she just finished up her graduate degree, her MBA degree at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have her here to tell her own story and to share that with you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: Milanna, thanks so much for being here today. Milanna Jones [00:01:29]: Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis, for having me here. My name is Milanna Jones. I am currently the city councilwoman for District 2 of Pontiac, and I'm a recent graduate from University of Michigan, Flint. I received my MBA with a concentration in organizational leadership in August this year, August 2025. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Always a good feeling when you get to walk across that stage and get to that light at the end of the tunnel. So one of the questions that I wanted to start with was really to take you back in time, because I know you did your undergraduate work at Purdue Global. And at some point during that period of time, as you were going through that undergraduate degree in business administration, you were involved, you did a lot of different things, and you saw that light at the end of the tunnel. But at some point within either your undergraduate degree or that time between your undergraduate degree and when you decided to start in graduate school, you made a decision for yourself, which Was that you wanted to take that step. Bring me back to that moment. What was going through your head and why did you decide that graduate school was the right step at that time? Milanna Jones [00:02:37]: So going back to that moment, which would precisely be August 2022, as someone who was already heavily involved in community leadership, I was looking for the opportunity to really strengthen those leadership skills. I was heavily involved with nonprofit work, two different 501C3s to be specific. And I just knew that the MBA was the route that I wanted to go at that time. Although I had not taken the steps to pursue it. I wanted to the tools to lead more effectively, more proactively, strategically, rather than reactively, which is, you know, now reflecting, which is what I was doing at the bachelor level. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:16]: You were thinking about that. You made that decision, you decided that you were going to take that next step. I know there was about a year between that August 2022 that you mentioned and when you decided to start it in August of 2023. So during that period of time, I'm sure you did your research. You. You had to figure out for yourself, what, what am I looking for in this process? What kind of program is going to be right for me? Is it right down the road? Is it further away? I mean, you did a global program. Is it going to be in Michigan? Is it going to be somewhere else? Walk me through that process for yourself. What was going through your head in regards to the things that were most important to you? Why were those the most important? And ultimately you decided to go to the University of Michigan Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:00]: What made you finally decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you? Milanna Jones [00:04:05]: So during that year gap between my bachelor's and starting with U of M Flint, I did take a couple of graduate level courses with Purdue Global. At that time, I realized that I wanted to look for a program, potentially one that was more interactive, Something that helped me acquire the practical skills of working with other people and additional academic rigor. Which then brings us back to the question of why um Flint? Um Flint was the only school that I applied to. It was my first choice, my first preferred choice. And although I tell myself, don't put all your eggs in one basket, I was determined to pursue U of M Flint. I read the website word for word many times while I was constructing my statement of purpose, going through the application process, and soon going on to meet with my academic advisor who marveled over how much information I retained about the program and each specific concentration. I knew exactly which one fit the best based on the description online and based on my conversation with others who have been in the Wolverine family now, it's worth mentioning that previously I did attend University of Michigan Dearborn and my mother and both of my grandparents are all graduates from U of M. One went to U of M Dearborn and two went to U of M Ann Arbor. Milanna Jones [00:05:28]: Which then brings us back to the question, why U of M Flint? For me, why am I the first to pursue this campus? And specifically it is because of the flexibility offered in the program and the high quality of academic rigor. There are many wonderful professors. There are two specific, in my mind that really pushed me outside of my comfort zone. While supporting me, I felt their commitment to really helping me learn and achieve the tools that I wanted in my personal life and in my professional experiences. So U of M Flint was, was initially my only choice. And now reflecting on this journey really solidifies why I gravitated there. That's where I was meant to be. That's where I connected most with the professors and with my peers. Milanna Jones [00:06:15]: I've developed close relationships with colleagues in Michigan and out of the state just from being here and working with U of M Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:23]: Now, for every student that goes into graduate school there, there truly is a transition that they go through. There's a transition as into graduate school. A transition as you go through graduate school and you found success, you graduated like we just talked about this past year. And as you think back to this experience in coming into graduate school, going through graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience? Milanna Jones [00:07:01]: It's interesting because of my unique experience entering the graduate program. When I started in 2023, I was just two years out from a life threatening medical tragedy. I spent months in the hospital. I am physically disabled. And it created a challenge engaging with other people while living in those circumstances. So what I needed to do to find success was really commit to prioritization and time management. And maybe other grad students say this as well, but I want to break it down specifically. So there were, there was some days where I just knew I had to focus on my own health and I couldn't look at any of the school related projects. Milanna Jones [00:07:46]: There were some days that I knew I needed to dedicate to reading, reading through the material before I even glanced at the assignment. So what I did was I was intentional with my schedule. I reserved Sundays for rest, Mondays and Tuesdays, depending on how the Weeks go for the schools, a couple of days solely for reading, and then after that had to commit to the work itself. And collaborating with others was more so full time. I would say I even did that on Sundays, which became more fun as time went on. But I had to, you know, really dig deep within myself and focus on my own self health in order to achieve success in the UM MBA program. And that is really one of the biggest suggestions I would give to any incoming grad student. Aside from the work and aside from, you know, the stress and the deadlines, you really have to prioritize yourself in this process because you are the only thing that's going to get you through this. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:43]: So you did complete your degree and you are now a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. You've got that MBA in hand. Now that you've completed that degree. How do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the work that you're doing in city council, but also the next steps in other things that you're planning to do in nonprofit or other work in the future? Milanna Jones [00:09:07]: Because I chose the organizational leadership concentration, the skills that I gained really most prepare me to do policy analysis and implement team motivation. I think that is worth mentioning twice. You know, emphasizing team motivation and implementing initiatives in a diverse community is one of the biggest takeaways that I have gotten from the U of M Flint MBA program. Specifically because those courses that really delve into negotiations and organizational behavior, those provide the real world skills and necessary knowledge to navigate any business transaction or potentially conflict in the community. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:49]: As you look back at your graduate education and the experience that you had going through that graduate degree for yourself, and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be for an MBA or something else. What are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Milanna Jones [00:10:12]: I would actually suggest that they step away from their end result because I think oftentimes individuals focus on a career or they have a job that they are striving to advance to. And I think that line of thinking really limits what you can take away from this program. So upon entering, I would recommend for students to look at the next year. What do they want to build upon in the next year and what sequence of courses are they taking to help them get there. And that's how individuals can truly align their interests and their personal values with the different concentration that are available at U of M Flint. Because the classes that you take, they're going to provide you with those tools that you need to advance yourself to the next level, of course. But looking in the shorter term, I think will help students or any incoming graduate student attain success faster and more efficiently, because we are looking more at the immediate next level, the pathway that you need to take to advance yourself each year. And that's how by the end of the two years, you get to the point of you're now a graduate, you obtain these skills in all of these different sectors because you took it one step at a time, or even break it down to one semester at a time. Milanna Jones [00:11:37]: What do you want to get better at by the end of the semester and then commit to that one goal at a time? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:43]: Well, Milanna, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for sharing this part of your journey. I know your journey's not over, but there's still time. There's still time and you'll be using this degree now for many years to come. But I truly want to say thank you for coming here today, for sharing these words of wisdom, and I wish you all the best. Milanna Jones [00:12:03]: Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis. It was my pleasure. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:05]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare today. Be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at .
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37177865
info_outline
Crafting an Artistic Journey: Shelby Newport’s Lessons from Grad School
07/07/2025
Crafting an Artistic Journey: Shelby Newport’s Lessons from Grad School
Are you considering grad school but feeling unsure about the process, the expectations, or even where to start? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School is a perfect listen for anyone navigating these questions. Host welcomes , Program Director for the Arts Administration program at the University of Michigan-Flint, for a candid conversation about finding success—and fulfillment—through graduate education. Shelby’s journey is a relatable one. She takes listeners back to her undergraduate days at Cornell College, where a mix of curiosity and an honest assessment of her skills led her to pursue further education. Recognizing that she needed more specialized training to reach her career goals in costume design, Shelby set her sights on an MFA—a common terminal degree in the arts. Her story of researching programs, attending the nerve-wracking (but rewarding) University and Resident Theater Association (URTA) interviews, and ultimately choosing Purdue for its supportive faculty and fit with her aspirations offers an inside look at the decision-making process for prospective grad students. A central theme in the episode is that grad school is a journey—often challenging, always transformative, and rarely linear. Shelby opens up about the transition from undergrad to graduate student, emphasizing that the switch isn’t just academic; it’s personal, too. Learning to “dress the part” and step into the role of both student and teacher was part of her process, as was embracing the intense, focused workload that a graduate program demands. Shelby’s advice for current and prospective students is refreshing in its honesty. She speaks about the importance of being open to change, both in yourself and in your career path. Sometimes, the direction you envision at the start isn’t where you’ll end up—and that’s not only okay, but often leads to unexpected opportunities and growth. Her own path led from regional theater work to a fulfilling career teaching and program direction, and her network—built by seizing opportunities and following her interests—has played a crucial role every step of the way. For anyone considering grad school or already in the midst of it, this episode is packed with valuable insights. Shelby Newport’s story is a reminder that while the journey may be unpredictable, your openness, effort, and willingness to grow will serve you well. Tune in to hear her story—you’ll walk away inspired and a little more prepared for your own graduate school adventure. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School. Where we have conversations with students, alumni. And experts about what it takes to. Find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited that you're back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. As you are looking at graduate school, thinking about graduate school, maybe you've applied to graduate school. No matter where you are, you are truly on a journey, because graduate school is a journey. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes some planning to not only get in, but get through. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: And that's what this podcast is all about. It's to provide you with some of those tools that you need, those tools for your toolbox that will help you to be able to find success and sooner. And that's why every week I bring you different guests with different experiences, people that have gone to graduate school before you to share some of their own experiences and allow for you to be able to learn from the things that they learned along the way as well. This week, we've got another great guest. Shelby Newport is with us, and Shelby is the program director for the Arts Administration Program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here, to have her talk a little bit about her own experiences and learn from her. Shelby, thanks so much for being here here today. Shelby Newport [00:01:26]: Yeah, thank you. This is exciting to talk about and remember my journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: Well, I'm really excited that you're here today, and it is a journey, and I think one of the things that I would love to do is kind of take you back in time because I know that you did your bachelor's degree at Cornell College and in theater in art, and then at some point during that time during your undergrad, you made a choice that you were going to continue on to get the mfa, and you did go and get an mfa. But bring me back to that point in your thinking and why you chose to go further and to go on. Shelby Newport [00:02:03]: Yeah, that moment is really a specific moment for me. I mean, I can sort of put myself in the position. I was a work study student in the costume shop at Cornell College and learning skills. But Cornell College is a small, private liberal arts college in Iowa, and our faculty was relatively small, taught me so many things, and it was the best place for me, but I didn't have really specific training in costume design and construction. And so, you know, sitting there doing my Work study job, working on a production, thinking. I think it was basically the, the end of my junior year, my third year in school, I had gone away and worked in the summer at different summer professional companies. Colorado Shakespeare Festival for, for two summers in a RO was thinking about where do I want to move? What is next? What is the job that I want? And knowing that there was going to be a lot of jobs, but what was that next step? And I felt like I didn't have the skills I needed with only my one year left of undergrad to do the job. Like I was leaning towards Chicago and working professionally in theater. Shelby Newport [00:03:14]: And so I needed more skills. And the mfa, the Master of Fine Arts, is a terminal degree in our arts field and it is a doing degree. So I knew that with intensive three years in a program that I would hopefully leave those three years with more skills than I had at that time. And of course, as it happens, during the journey, you find out other things about yourself and who you know, where you want to go and who you want to be. And I, I gained a lot of different skills that I couldn't have expected. So my path and the job I wanted to do changed during those three years. But I decided that I wanted to go right away and not take time off between undergrad and graduate school now. Shelby Newport [00:03:53]: And you made the decision to go to Purdue. Purdue University. And there's a lot of MFA programs all across the country. And I'm sure you did some, some review, some research to try to determine for yourself what was the best program for you. Talk to me about that search process and what you had to do to come to that final conclusion of going to Purdue. Shelby Newport [00:04:16]: Yeah, in the arts we have this, I think, somewhat unique organization called erda. The acronym is University and Resident Theater Association. And that organization run interviews and auditions for MFA programs, among other things, as a, as an organization and association of university programs. And so at that time they ran three interview dates where you went in person in New York, Chicago or San Francisco. You signed up for those and you set up a table, basically a booth for yourself, your portfolio and a board, maybe some samples of your work. And so I selected the New York one and my boyfriend at the time, my husband, now we drove to New York, New York from Iowa with my things and parked my Jetta in New York City and stayed in a fancy hotel, set up my booth and you set up your area, your table. Then you leave for four hours and then you come back and they give you a list of the grad schools that want to interview you. And then you have, I think it was 10 or 15 minutes with each of the school representatives that wanted to meet you. Shelby Newport [00:05:22]: And then after that, I think you got a piece of paper that said, like, next step interviews with your next tier. And in our field, it's always like, oh, how many IRTA interviews did you get? Oh, how many did you get? And there's probably 40 school representatives at these. And they're the. Mostly the major programs. The really top tier MFA programs like Yale don't go to this. They don't need to recruit in that way. So it's that next tier of major universities. University of Iowa, Purdue, Florida has a great program. Shelby Newport [00:05:56]: University of North Dakota, Montana. Like, those programs were all there and talking to you. So you're meeting someone, maybe the costume designer, maybe it's another designer, because all the design students are doing this at the same time. And it's a real fast speed dating moment of like, tell me about your program, I'll tell you about myself. Do we click? I don't know, is there chemistry? So I had a few really great ones. I think my number was nine. I think I had nine on my list of people who wanted to talk to me. So that's reasonable, right? And of that 9, 4 sort of showed real interest and, like, felt like a pretty good match. Shelby Newport [00:06:32]: Purdue was in that and University of Wisconsin, Madison was in that group, and then University of Maryland was in that group. And I really liked the faculty that I met with. They seemed to like the direction that I was going, that had art and theater blended in it. I didn't. I wasn't a purist in my undergrad. And then Purdue actually offered, you know, you're driving back from New York to Iowa. If you want to stop in Indiana, we'll put you up and you can see the house or can see the university. We just built a new building. Shelby Newport[00:07:00]: Come check it. And so the free room for the undergrad was a real draw. So we stopped there and checked it out, and the new building was a real draw. But my, the thing that really hooked me was the faculty member. And the faculty member, Joel Ebarb remains a good friend and mentor now, and he was the reason I selected that place. And he told me something on that day that I think really shaped my choice. And that is, do you think you want to be a Broadway designer or a film and television designer? And I said, no, I don't think I do. All right, well, then find a school that matches the kind of work you want to do. Shelby Newport [00:07:35]: And Joel Worked in Chicago, he was a regional designer. He had a couple of international things to his name, but he was an academic and an educator. And he said, do you want to teach? I think so. And so find the school that does that. If you want to be a Broadway designer, go to New York and go to a school on the east coast, because those connections are going to do that for you. And so that really started to shape that next set of journey of months of like, what does this look like for me? And why is location of graduate school important? And I don't think I ever thought about that before. Shelby Newport [00:08:05]: He said that you ultimately did choose to go to Purdue. They selected you, you selected them, got to that point. And any student that moves into a graduate program, there is going to be a transition. There's definitely a transition in the way that you're educated. There's a transition in the expectations of your faculty, the expectations that you put on yourself. You found success, you got through the program, you graduated, you got that mfa. So as you think back to those transitions that you went through going from undergrad into your mfa, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey? Shelby Newport [00:08:53]: I mean, ultimately, yes, I was successful, but it was really hard. And it's a three year program. MFA's in different areas are in, are different lengths. So my husband also has an MFA and his was a two year intensive program. So they have different, they have different things, but mine was three years. But I think that middle zone, no matter how long your program is, that halfway point, is really the hardest moment. And when I think about lows of my program, it is that moment you're really questioning why you're doing this, who you are, what's going to come out on the other end. And at the end feels so far the success of what that, how that success is going to look. Shelby Newport [00:09:31]: It seems so far away. So I think what I did to set myself up for success, I guess the things that come to mind because I was also becoming an adult, because I chose to go right from undergrad, I was relatively young and my partner and I, we decided to move to Indiana together. So we graduate from Cornell and we move to Indiana together. We have our first apartment, we're like figuring out how to be adults and make our own dinners and like be pay the bills, do life. So I think for me that setting up for success was just stepping into an adult. And that's what graduate School is going to be. And it's going to be different than undergrad. I'm going to step into this. Shelby Newport [00:10:09]: I also had a graduate teaching assistantship, so I taught not my first semester, but the second semester and then continued to teach every semester a class. So that helped me become that different kind of student because I was teaching undergraduate students sewing, stage costuming and stage makeup classes. And I think that even though maybe I didn't feel like an adult all the time, like a real grownup, teaching that class helped me live into that reality. So. And as a costume designer, that clothes and dress. Dress for the job you want, right? That kind of philosophy or. I also really like the mantra of when you look good, you feel good. So I have really distinct memories in grad school of like, dressing for the part. Shelby Newport [00:10:51]: Like I would, you know, I go and I feel adult and I'm ready to go. And I think that the, the, the biggest difference of the educational model for me was the intensity and the specificity of the kind of classes that you're taking, which I know for lots of different kind of graduate programs, but you've made a choice to move in, to funnel down into a more specific path. And had I maybe been a little bit more mentally prepared for that, that could have helped that second year intensity. I think, because you just have no break from the content that is this thing that you've selected. It's all that. You don't get to go to your anthropology class and switch your brain to something else. You gotta find other ways to relax and be an adult and stretch these other parts of your life. So anyways, lots of stories there about how I found, I think, but ultimately it was stepping into the role. Shelby Newport [00:11:43]: And even when I didn't feel like it, dressing the part and being ready to learn and teach. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:48]: Completely understand. Now, you finished up the mfa, and I know that that professor initially asked you, do you want to teach? And you got to the end of the mfa and you did decide to teach and talk to me about that because every student has to figure out for themselves what direction they want, want to go. And you could have gone to regional theater, you could have gone to national theater, you could have done many different things with that degree. You chose to continue on and you, you got a position here at the University of Michigan, Flint, and started teaching. But talk to me about that decision process for yourself. Shelby Newport [00:12:28]: Yeah, so some, some was decided for me. So my partner at the time, you know, he was there with me three years working and kind of paying the bills. And so we decided that after that was his turn to pursue his mfa. So he went through a very different process of selecting an MFA program, but ultimately found Cranbrook Art Academy, which is in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. And so that brought us to Michigan first. So we knew we were going to move here. And then my plan was to pay the bills and figure it out and decide what that looked like. So we moved to the area. Shelby Newport [00:13:00]: I had sent out a lot of resumes, academic, applied for a lot of things, but not a ton of bites at that moment. And then once we were here, I said yes to a variety of jobs. I did a student film once I was in Detroit and the film industry in Detroit, in I guess this was 2009. There were lots of incentives for Michigan film companies to produce films in Michigan. So I jumped on quite a few of those when we first moved here on a gig basis. And then one of those CV letters that I had sent out earlier in the year. And that kind of network connection yielded a phone call that said, I'm the chair at University of Michigan, Flint, and I have one class that I need filled. And I heard that you moved here. Shelby Newport [00:13:42]: And I think I got your resume, but I found you through another faculty member through an organization. We know each other. So he gave me your phone number. Do you want to come teach for us? And I was like, sure. And actually this was like three days after school had started because they didn't have an instructor, so can you teach next week? And so I was like, sure, let's figure this out. So I did my first year of teaching at University of Michigan, Fluent as a lecturer, one class in the fall. And then I taught four classes in the winter. And then they ran a search for a tenure stream faculty member. Shelby Newport [00:14:12]: I think your original question is, like, how did I find that? But it felt right. Like, it felt like, oh, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be sharing this knowledge and being an exciting, interested again, like relatively young in my career. Dress the part and step in front of the classroom and teach some intro to Theater class to University of Michigan Flint student. And then each step of the way it was like, less. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. So I didn't worry too much about that tenure position. It kind of. I mean, luckily it found me and I was a good candidate for them. Shelby Newport [00:14:45]: And I had that trial period. I didn't worry too much about tenure and getting that next step. I just said, like, if we're here, I'm going to do a good job. And I'M going to pursue regional work. And what would get me tenure at the University of Michigan? As if it's my job, right? Like if I'm. I'm going to. It is my job. So I'm going to move forward in that process as if we're going to stay here. Shelby Newport [00:15:04]: And we didn't know what we were going to do then after that. But ultimately we've made Michigan our home and both of us have found creative communities that have allowed us to do both professional creative work. So I've made lots of connections over the last 15 years with professional regional companies that have then provided me that professional costume designer work and the teaching work. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: You've recently stepped into the role of director of the Arts Administration Master's degree program, which is a Rackham graduate degree here at the University of Michigan, Flint. For many years, you worked very closely with your undergraduate students and you still do. And now you're working with graduate students. Talk to me about that transition and what it's now like to not only be a director of a graduate program, but also in working with graduate students. What's that like? And what are you learning from that? Shelby Newport [00:15:57]: This was an easy yes, as they say, to step into this role. I was really excited to think differently about this program after the past director had left the unit university. And the...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37176845
info_outline
Navigating the Graduate School Journey: Lessons in Success from Dr. Cam McLeman
06/30/2025
Navigating the Graduate School Journey: Lessons in Success from Dr. Cam McLeman
Considering graduate school or already deep in your studies? Navigating this journey can feel overwhelming—full of choices, challenges, and the constant pursuit of personal and professional growth. This week’s “Victors in Grad School” episode is a must-listen for anyone at any stage of that journey, as sits down with , director of the Data Analytics program at University of Michigan-Flint, to share valuable insights that will resonate with students, alumni, and educators alike. Dr. McLeman’s story is one many can relate to: a passionate undergraduate uncertain about career direction, he experimented with disciplines before returning to his true academic love—mathematics. His decision to pursue a PhD, driven by a thirst for deeper knowledge rather than a prescribed career path, will inspire those who view learning as a lifelong process. But his journey didn’t stop with earning that doctorate—transitioning into the realm of data analytics, Dr. McLeman demonstrates the power of adapting skills and embracing new opportunities as the landscape of higher education and industry evolves. The conversation dives deep into practical wisdom for succeeding at the graduate level. Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate studies, Dr. McLeman notes, is much like moving from high school to college—you’re expected to take far more ownership of your pathway. The self-driven nature of graduate school requires not just academic diligence but also proactive organization, advocacy, and a willingness to push beyond comfort zones. Dr. McLeman highlights the importance of building connections: with faculty, with industry, and especially with peers who are further along the journey. “Don’t struggle in silence,” he urges, pointing to the wealth of support services campuses offer—from academic assistance to mental health and disability support. Success often hinges on reaching out and taking advantage of these resources before issues become overwhelming. Perhaps the most compelling theme fro TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week, every week. I love being able to bring you on this journey because it is a journey. You have made a choice. You've made a choice that either you're looking at graduate school, maybe you've applied to graduate school, maybe you got accepted to graduate school. No matter where you are, whether you're just applying, you're in graduate school or beyond, this is a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: And you have definite things that you can learn to be able to prepare yourself not only to make the transition into graduate school, but things that you can do to be able to be even more successful as you go through that entire graduate school process. And that's why this show exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to pick up some tools for your toolbox, to be able to help you to figure out some things that you might even be able to do right today. Or as you go further on, to help you in this journey. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Cam McLeman is here. And Cam is the director of our data analytics program here at the University of Michigan, Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: And he had his own graduate school journey that we're gonna be talking about today. Also works with graduate students, so he definitely has some perspectives on what it's like to work with the graduate students and what he's seen with them. So I'm really excited to have him here, and I am really looking forward to having this conversation today. Cam, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:01:44]: Thank you very much for having me, Chris. I appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: It is my pleasure. I am really excited to be able to talk to you today, to be able to delve a little bit deeper into your own journey and see what we can learn along the way. And I know you did your undergrad work at Harvey Mudd College and got a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics. And at some point during that time during your undergraduate work, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on with your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about kind of what you were thinking and what made you decide that you wanted to go on to graduate school. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:15]: Yeah, so I came into undergrad pretty confident that I wanted to do mathematics. In some capacity. I also had a passing interest in computer science and physics and engineering, but I knew that math had to be part of it. And as I travers my undergraduate degree, I dabbled in all of those things. I picked up a second major in computer science, and then I dropped that, decided it wasn't for me, and I picked up a second major in physics, and I dropped that and decided it wasn't for me. And every time I just came back to math, and that's what I found my passion in. And by the end of my undergraduate degree, it wasn't so much that I was chasing a specific career, it was just that I knew I was not done learning math. I couldn't choose not to keep going. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:57]: So. So grad school was in some sense just the natural continuation of my learning process at that moment. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:04]: So as you made that decision that you were going to keep learning, you wanted to keep going and continue your education, I'm sure you did some exploration, you did some research, you tried to figure out for yourself where was that next step. And ultimately, I know you made the choice to go to the University of Arizona to get a PhD in mathematics. Talk to me about that journey for yourself and what made you decide first, a PhD in mathematics. But also, what did you go through? What were some of the things that you were looking for? What made you ultimately end up choosing the University of Arizona over the many other PhD programs that are out there across the United States and beyond? Dr. Cam McLeman [00:03:44]: Yeah, that's a great question. And to be fair, it was not an easy discussion. The choices when you're graduating from an undergraduate institution, especially, I think in a STEM field, are pretty overwhelming. There are industry options and commercial options to consider. Those were not my particular, you know, appeal. That was wasn't what I was interested in. I was interested in doing more academics. So then you have the question of do you go for a Master's degree or a PhD degree if you want to keep going, and in mathematics, that the choice is a little bit different than in some fields in that a master's degree is something you would pick if you knew what career you wanted to go into, and it had a master's degree requirement to it. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:04:25]: Whereas a PhD degree is the academic degree. If you want to go for the full doctorate, knowing that along the way, you essentially pick up a master's degree. So for me, the choice was clear because I knew that if I needed to bail out at some point along the way, decided that the PhD wasn't for me, then most PhD programs give you that that exit ramp to exit with just a Master's degree just is not meant as pejoratively there, just earlier than the PhD and then sort of every stage in your academic career from there on, you are constrained by availability. So I probably applied to a dozen grad schools for my PhD program. That's out of a choice of several hundred. So this was finding the programs that appealed to me both geographically and in terms of what expertise their faculty had. And cost was a factor, the likelihood that they would be able to subsidize part of my education. And in the end, the University of Arizona offered the best total package there. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:05:33]: I had never been to Arizona. I did not know that it would reach 110 degrees some summers. That was a climate based struggle for me during my time there. But in terms of the quality of the faculty and the aid package they were able to offer me, that just rose above the rest. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: Now, as you make that transition and you go to graduate school, there is definitely a transition, because the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student is not going to be the same way that you're going to be taught as a graduate student. There's different expectations not only of your faculty, but also pressure that you put on yourself. Expectations that you have on yourself for the ultimate goal that you're working, working to attain. You found success, you ended up getting that PhD, getting that graduate degree. As you think back to that transition for yourself, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey? Dr. Cam McLeman [00:06:37]: That's a great question. Let me start by a preliminary story, which is that in my role right now, I deal with a lot of the transition from high school students to undergraduate students, students telling them what to expect in their first year of undergrad. And what I tell them is that this will be a transition in the sense that there's not going to be people holding your hand through every step of this process. There's not going to be someone forcing you to come to class and telling you after you get done with your sports practice, you have to sit down for an hour and do your homework. Undergrad, you're much more responsible for setting your own schedule. That transition from high school to undergraduate is mirrored again in the transition from undergraduate to graduate. Here, not only do you have to come to class of your own volition and do your homework when you're supposed to, you need to also be in charge of managing your course selection and your advisor selection so that you're hitting your life goals. It is a matter of being much more self driven in terms of organization. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:07:36]: If you are not motivated to complete the degree, you're not going to do well in the degree. If you take the approach that all you have to do is sit through the classes and you'll come out the other side with a degree, you may get the degree, but you won't be on that success path for accelerating and whatever your post degree goals were. So I think to come back to your question of what measures to take to ensure success, it is about claiming that ownership of your journey. It is about making sure that at each step you're not blindly following what you think will be the easiest path to the degree, but rather deliberately choosing paths that might be harder if it means that at the end you'll be a better master of your subject. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: I mentioned at the beginning you're working with undergraduate students, but you're also working with graduate students now in a new data analytics program. And I guess I'm interested to dig a little deeper on what you've learned from students that you've been working with at the graduate level now versus the undergraduate level, either with what they've been challenged with or what you've had to work with them with as they've made that transition in and through graduate school. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:08:45]: Yeah, so our graduate program in data analytics is a very interesting case and perhaps a bit of a contrast to the story that I just told in that it is essentially always a terminal degree for students in that program, that it is very career focused, that students in that program tend to come out very well prepared for jobs and not typically with the intent of going on to get a PhD in data analytics. What I found from our students in our program is that they hit those hallmarks that I was just talking about. They come to this degree knowing what industry they want to go work in. And that's in part the design of the program. So just to give a very brief overview, the data analytics program is sort of half your courses skills based, getting computer science and math background to prepare you. Then the other half is discipline specific. If you want to go into healthcare admin, you take a bunch of courses in the College of Health Sciences learning about healthcare. If you want to go into business analytics, you take half your courses with the School of Management. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:09:44]: So students come into our program with a pretty good sense of which area of industry they want to go into. And then it is sort of my job as advisor to help match their career goals with the courses that they would take to get there. And sometimes, and I think the best students push back and say, actually in this field, which I might not know about personally, it's better to have this skill than this skill. So I was hoping I could take this class instead of this class, in which case that's absolutely fine. And we figured that out in the system. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:14]: You got your PhD in mathematics, you're still teaching in mathematics and working with mathematics students at the same time. You're now doing data analytics. Talk to me about that interplay and what made you maybe pivot a little bit or change a little bit in your direction and kind of the students that you're working with now at the graduate level? Dr. Cam McLeman [00:10:36]: Yeah, it was a career shift for me. It is happening in mathematics as a whole that we are finding increased application of mathematics in just about every field. Data analytics and data science being sort of the venue for using mathematics to solve problems everywhere. So I've already mentioned healthcare administration and business analytics. These are places where mathematics has not always had a strong foothold, but rather more business focused classes. And I think what we're seeing all across the globe is parts of industry recognizing that the management of data is increasingly important. And that is a nice segue to my math skills, because math is a critical component of data analytics, but it's not the only one. So what this program did that was somewhat revolutionary on campus was have these interdisciplinary courses that you could have a strong math core, but the degree is not about mathematics. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:11:30]: And so for me personally, it was a convenient place for me to use my mathematics skills, transition into a place where I could speak more intellectually, more intelligently about data analytics and data science. And also I've learned a lot about healthcare administration and business analytics in my role here, which is something I've never had training in. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: Now, as you think back to your own graduate school journey, you think about the journeys of the graduate students that you're working with now. What are some tips that you might offer to other individuals thinking about graduate school, whether it be in mathematics, data analytics, or any other field that would help them find success sooner? Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:10]: Yeah, I will say my answer to this is to do the opposite of only going to your classes and sitting through lectures and doing homework. That is the most insular, I will say introverted approach, which is my default approach. So I sympathize with it. But the path to success is making contact with everyone you can. That means as you're thinking about your current degree and where you'd Go after, look at what industry is wanting. Look at the skills that your potential employers will want. Talk to your faculty. You'll get a sense of what they think it looks like to be successful in this field. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:43]: And maybe most importantly, talk to the people ahead of you in the program. If you're in a two year program, talk to the students who've already been there for a year. See what their struggles were, see what they wish they had known through their first year about navigating various systems and don't struggle in silence. Particularly in our degree and in our university as a whole, we have all sorts of support mechanisms. If you are struggling either academically or financially or personally or with a disability that you may have just noticed or went undiagnosed, do not keep that information to yourself. Find someone who can help. And here, and I think generally at most higher ed institutions, there are people there whose sole job is to help you with that. So be public, talk to people, figure out who can help and take advantage of those services. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:36]: Great advice and definitely something we've talked about on the show before is that advocacy that you have to have for yourself and you have to be willing to open up and ask for assistance. The piece that Cam mentioned about, even disability services, veterans services, you know, there are many different services that are on campus and sometimes you as a student may say to yourself that you don't want to say anything because you feel like you're going to be stigmatized. Don't do that. Step into it. Ask for the help up front. You might never use it, but at least you have the resource. You've made the contact. You're a known quantity and they are there if you need them. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]: It doesn't mean that they're going to go out and out you to everybody on campus that they are going to do what you need to be able to be successful and they're not going to know how to help you if you don't advocate for yourself. So definitely make sure that you take advantage of that and ask for those things up front. And even as you're looking at schools, you can start asking those questions up front to be able to make sure that you have those things ready for yourself on day one or maybe it's your second term or beyond. It's when you need it. So great points. Thank you, Cam. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for sharing your journey and for allowing others a little glimpse into what you experience, but also what you're currently experiencing with other students. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:03]: And I truly wish you all the best. Dr. Cam McLeman [00:15:05]: Thanks very much, Chris. I was glad to be here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:07]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at .
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/37176325
info_outline
Finding Your Way: Overcoming Doubt and Defining Success in Graduate School
06/23/2025
Finding Your Way: Overcoming Doubt and Defining Success in Graduate School
Embarking on the journey to graduate school can be both exhilarating and overwhelming. In the latest episode of the “Victors in Grad School” podcast, sits down with , Assistant Director for Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS) at the , to talk about her winding—and deeply personal—path through higher education. This insightful conversation is packed with valuable lessons and encouragement for anyone considering, or already pursuing, advanced degrees. Embrace Your Own Timeline One of the most powerful themes of this episode is the importance of honoring your unique path. Dr. Tookes shares candidly about taking breaks between each of her degrees—underscoring that there is no "one-size-fits-all" trajectory through academia. She explains how these pauses allowed her to gain hands-on experience (and even chase a dream of being on America’s Next Top Model!) before returning to her studies with renewed clarity and purpose. Her story is a reminder that whether you go straight through or take time off, your educational journey is yours to define. The Power of Real-World Experience Dr. Tookes’ journey highlights the value of real-world experience in shaping academic and career choices. Her early work in a child and family services nonprofit exposed her to social work, therapy, and the complexities of family systems—experiences that informed her eventual focus on counseling psychology. She encourages prospective students to seek out professional experiences, talk with people in the field, and use those insights to refine their goals. Overcoming Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome Transitioning to graduate school can trigger self-doubt, especially for those who see themselves as “nontraditional” students. Dr. Tookes bravely discusses her own struggles with imposter syndrome and negative thinking, and shares how reframing her mindset, celebrating small wins, and building a strong support network helped her persevere. Her honesty will resonate with anyone who has ever questioned their abilities or belonged in a program. Seeking Guidance and Paying It Forward Finally, Dr. Tookes emphasizes connecting with advisers, mentors, and peers—not only for academic support but also for personal encouragement. Her journey eventually led her to help other doctoral students as an academic adviser, filling a gap in support she’d wished for in her own experience. If you’ve ever wondered what success in graduate school really looks like, this episode is for you. Listen to Dr. Juanita Tookes and gain practical wisdom, heartfelt encouragement, and a fresh perspective on your own educational path. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, and really excited to have you back again this week as we are working together, as you're going through this path, this journey that you're on to consider graduate school, go to graduate school, whatever part you are in, it is a journey. I say that every week, but it is so true because for every person, that path, that journey is going to look a little bit different. It's gonna feel a little bit different. You're gonna have to work through the things that that you're challenged with as you're thinking about this and figuring it out if this is the right path for you. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you to be able to demystify the graduate school process, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you in this journey. And I do that every week by introducing you to other people that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, that have learned some things along the way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: Maybe everything went perfectly well. I'm gonna guess to say it didn't all go perfectly, but that you learn along the way and you can learn from these individuals and put those tools in your toolbox to help you to maybe miss that stumbling block. But if not, start planning for it and prepare yourself so that as you hit that stumbling block, you have some tools, you have some resources to draw from that'll help you through that. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Doctor Juanita Tookes is with us, and Doctor Tookes is a the assistant director for the counseling and psychological services, or CAPS, program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate and master's degree both at Wayne State University and then went and got her doctorate degree at Oakland University. And we're gonna talk about that journey that she went on to learn a little bit more about that. I'm really excited to have her here. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Doctor Tuxt, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:17]: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. It's always an honor when I'm invited to share my experience. And, of course, I know my experience is individual to me, but I hope something I say can be helpful to someone. So thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:30]: Now, as I said, you did your undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And at some point during that degree in psychology, you made a decision. You made a choice. You decided that you were going to continue on and get that graduate degree. Can you bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head? What made you decide that you wanted to do that? Because I know that there was a little bit of time between the bachelor's and the master's as well. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:03]: Yes. So this is such a long time ago. So when I graduated with my undergrad degree in 02/2008, I knew that I wanted to go higher in education. I knew that. I knew that I wanted to be a doctor since I was nine years old. Now at that age, I didn't know that there were different kinds of doctors. I just knew that I wanted to be one. But there is the preview of what you wanna do. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:29]: There is the product of what actually comes out of it. But then there's this middle part called the process. So after I graduated with my undergrad degree, I did not go straight into graduate school. My brain was gone at the end of of my undergrad experience. It took me five years to complete that because I did not go to school in the summer. So it took me a little bit longer. And I just wanted to be without school for a little bit. Like, it was very intellectually challenging. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:58]: It took a lot of my time. It was it was a lot. I was proud of it. I was happy that I did it. But I realized, unlike some of my peers who went straight into grad programs, I wanted to take a break. So what ended up happening is I found out through the psych department about, an internship. It was an internship in a child and family service organization in Detroit, and I applied for that and got it. And so what I did is I did my year internship there, and I got hired on as a full time employee. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:30]: And I was doing data entry and analysis for this organization. And I actually was there for a few years. And so the way that I look at it is because sometimes I've heard people think that you just have I've heard both sides of this. So people think that it's bad to take breaks. You need to just go straight through. And it's not bad. I think that whether you take breaks or you go straight through, just make sure that you're making the decision that's best for you. It's not about what other people think. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:58]: It's about what's best for you. It was best for me because I got to get some hands on real life experience in the area that I said that I wanted to work in. I knew I wanted to be in the helping professions. I knew that I wanted to study psychology. And so being at a child and family service nonprofit organization allowed me to interact a lot with social workers and therapists. This organization mainly worked with teenagers, so I was able to understand some things about the judicial system in relation to in relation to several things. So drug use, abuse and misuse, family systems. We were working with adjudicated youth, so youth that were who had committed some offenses, and they had to go to the court to get those offenses rectified. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:48]: Really learning a lot from the social workers and understanding that area, even though that's not what I was going for. Social work really helped enhance my knowledge about resources in the community that can help families, which were was inclusive of therapy. So my decision to go into grad school after my break was it was kind of like an internal it was an internal thing. I was traveling for two years. I was pursuing interests outside of academics. At this time, I was trying to be America's next top model at this time. So I was traveling and, like, pursuing modeling, trying to get assigned to an agency. I was trying to beg Tyra Banks to let me on her show. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:28]: But at the end of a two year period, my dreams had not manifested at that point. And I said, okay. We have to make a decision. Either you're going to continue to pursue this or you're going to get that grad school application done and submitted. And I went with the latter, completed my application to grad school, and then got admitted there. And that's how I started my journey in grad school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: So in that learning that you went through, you as you said, you you worked with social workers, you saw psychologists, you worked with other individuals. And in those two years, you also had to do some other research. You had to determine what type of program you wanted to be in, what type of focus you wanted to focus on. And I know you ended up going back to Wayne State for a master of arts in counseling psychology. Talk to me about what made you, one, decide on specifically counseling psychology, where you could have done social work, you could have done some other type of psychology. What made you decide specifically on that and not other areas? And then conversely, what made you decide to go back to Wayne State versus another institution that might've had a similar program? Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:38]: These are great questions. I'm very happy to share. And something you said before was very important. Remember when I said that I was nine and I knew that I wanted to be a doctor? Well, throughout this process, that idea got refined and specified more and more. So at the end of my undergraduate education, I realized that I really wanted to work with families. I really wanted, which is why I got that internship at the Child and Family Service Organization. As I went through that, I got fine tuned even more because then I had to think, you know, did did I want to work in the school setting? Did I want to work in the community setting? Did I want to work in a hospital? Like, what did I want to do? A lot of these things were still unclear. And this is something that my education was very, very and it was very helpful to me in helping me understand what specifically did I wanna do with a psych degree because there's so many things and so many areas that that you can work in and do. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:32]: And so I decided to go back to Wayne State because, honestly, I was not familiar with a lot of college programs. So going through my high school curriculum and even in undergrad, I was not really exposed to a lot of college information. I knew about Wayne State because I grew up, was born, grew up in Detroit, so I knew about Wayne State. But luckily and I I'm not gonna say luckily because it was actually a blessing. I was actually accepted to be a part of a trio program, which was the McNair Scholars Program. That was an amazing program that I was in in undergrad, and this program helped students who wanted to pursue doctoral studies. Now at this point, I knew that I wanted to go into doctoral studies. I just didn't know how. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:18]: But this program, in my undergraduate experience, it helped expose me to more college information than I probably would have had if I was not in this program. So, we took college tours, you know, out of state. We were able to work closely with faculty members and do undergrad research, but we were able to, at this time, the GRE was a requirement. So, we got to have tutoring with GRE instructors. We had mentorship. So this really helped me define more and more, seeing other professionals and understanding what the grad application process was like. It really opened my mind to other possibilities of what I wanted to do with my degree. So once I started getting this information, I had already had my eyes focused on Wayne State even with the information that I had gained through the McNair program. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:07]: And so I had gotten in, and I decided to then say I wanted to be a marriage and family therapist. So that is the program that I applied to. The curriculum had changed once I got admitted. So it changed from marriage and family therapy to counseling counseling psychology. And I said, okay. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be the same. I wasn't quite sure what to make of the change that was outside of me that had to do with the university. But when I look back on it in in hindsight, I'm appreciative that I did get the counseling psych degree because I am a counselor now, but I started off as a psych major. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:42]: So I'm actually dually educated and dually trained in both of those areas. They are not the same, but they have a lot of similarities. So psych has a lot to do with assessment and, really looking into things from the medical model of how to look at a person's problems and physical manifestation of symptoms. Counseling is not like that. Counseling is more open and encompassing of the human and the human experience, and it really discourages looking at people at from a medical, you know, viewpoint. I think both perspectives are helpful, and the fact that I am trained in both helps me have a very enhanced, lens when I am assessing a person's mental and emotional challenges whereas I have to diagnose and things like that. So it's interesting because once I apply for my PhD, that is when I had more knowledge about other programs that I could possibly do my doctorate at. So I didn't really have it for undergrad as far as going to other institutions. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:43]: I didn't really have it for my master's program because about time, I really understood that I could be at other places I was already admitted. So I stuck stuck with Wayne State, which was wonderful. It was a wonderful educational journey being at Wayne State. But what the grad program at Wayne State helped me to realize is that there was reasons why I didn't wanna do social work. I worked with a lot of social workers, and then I thought that the work was great, but I realized just the nuances in the helping professions. There's a difference between a psychologist, between a counselor, between a social worker. Again, a lot of similarities, but I didn't think that I wanted to work so much in the community And being that I call social workers community connectors because they know everything about what is in the community to help somebody overcome an obstacle or a problem. There are clinical tracks with social work to where they can do therapy as well. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:35]: But I just knew for me that I did not want to do the community kind of component of the helping professions. But it's interesting, though, because even in my learning experience, I did community mental health. So even though I wasn't a social worker, I still worked out in the community doing in home therapy. I did that for a couple of years working with a behavioral clinic. And so that further defined what did I wanna do and what did I not wanna do. And I realized that working in community mental health is was something that as somebody who is trying to be a psychologist, somebody who's trying to be a counselor, at that time, I was still going for my psych license. I didn't wanna do in home therapy. I also had an internship at Detroit Medical Center during my experience. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:22]: And even though I really liked working in the hospital, I wasn't quite sure that I wanted that wasn't a fit for me either. So even though I didn't know what I wanted to do, my experiences through grad school helped me understand what I did not want to do, which I think is equally as helpful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: That is helpful. And I think a lot of times that that's what you have to do is you have to whittle it down. And sometimes you don't know. And but luckily, as you go through a graduate program, that hopefully you've done your research going in and that it has at least the initial building blocks. But then as you go through even further, you are able to hyperfocus and and identify even more so what as a part of, let's say, counseling psychology, what do you wanna do in counseling psychology, and what don't you wanna do? Because there's a lot of facets within that as well. Now I mentioned that you ultimately ended up going and getting that doctor degree, became a doctor. You got your doctor of philosophy, your PhD in counseling education and supervision. And, again, with that degree, you went to Oakland University, and you chose to go in that direction. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:31]: There were a couple of years between the master's and the doctorate, similar to what we saw from the undergrad to the master's. So talk to me about that and the same decision making process. What made you decide Oakland university? And, decision making process. What made you decide Oakland University and what made you decide that at that time when you started in 2016, what, why was that the right time? Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:53]: As you pointed out, I have taken breaks in between every degree and something that I want everyone who's listening to this to understand is your path is your path. It doesn't have to look like anyone else's path. If you have to stop and take a break for whatever reason, either you have to or you want to and then jump back into it later, whether you go straight through, whether you change, you know, maybe you switch, you know, your focus, you know, your area of focus, your major, area of study, like, it's okay. Like, this is all a part of you discovering who you are and understanding what you wanna do in this world. So it's completely okay. I noticed that when I took breaks between my undergrad and grad degree, there was a lot of things that I just didn't understand and I didn't know. And and that's understandable. You know, you're growing, you're learning, you're being exposed to more. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:42]: As we know, with undergrad degree, it's pretty well encompassing. You're being, you know, well rounded and exposed to a whole bunch of different, you know, educational areas versus grad school where it's more honed in on a specific focus and area. Between my master's and doctorate degree, I definitely had a better understanding of what I wanted to do, but it wasn't complete yet. But it was definitely more specified than before. So what really encouraged me to apply for my doctorate was I wasn't happy with my with my job at the time. I was working in community mental health. This is when I was doing in home therapy. There at that time, there was not a lot of money in community mental health, so I wasn't getting paid a lot. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:24]: And, again,...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/36892365
info_outline
Navigating the Complexities of Graduate School Admissions: Lessons from Legal Experts
06/16/2025
Navigating the Complexities of Graduate School Admissions: Lessons from Legal Experts
Are you thinking about graduate school, but worried about a few bumps in your academic or personal past? This week’s episode of "Victors in Grad School," hosted by , is one you can’t afford to miss. Joined by legal experts and , co-chairs of , the conversation centers around one of the most overlooked—but crucial—aspects of grad school admissions: how to handle disclosures of disciplinary or legal issues, and how to demonstrate personal growth. Facing the Application Questions Head-On Many prospective grad students feel anxiety when applications prompt disclosure of past academic or criminal incidents. Susan and Kristina stress the importance of honesty—reading each prompt carefully and responding truthfully, without oversharing. As Susan puts it, "Answer the prompt, but you don’t have to gut yourself." If more information is needed, universities will ask. Ultimately, omitting required information can be far worse than taking ownership of a past mistake. Lessons in Reflection and Preparedness The episode delves into the power of self-reflection—not just when answering tough application questions, but also when making decisions about when and why to pursue graduate school. Both Susan and Kristina share insights from their own paths and from those of Susan’s children, who benefited from working and reflecting before diving into advanced studies. That pause, they say, can help students make more thoughtful—and ultimately more successful—academic choices. Law School, AI, and the Changing Landscape The advent of AI tools has streamlined research and writing, but Susan and Kristina caution against letting technology replace critical thinking and big-picture analysis, especially for those considering law as a career. Law school, they emphasize, is about so much more than memorization: it’s mental chess, requiring creativity, analysis, and adaptability. Growth, Redemption, and Moving Forward Perhaps the most compelling message of the episode is one of hope. A mistake in your past doesn’t define you forever—what matters is how you move forward. Take steps to show growth connected to the issue, stay out of trouble, and be ready to talk authentically about your journey. Colleges and licensing boards are often open to stories of redemption and resilience. If you’re plotting your path to graduate school—or helping someone who is—this episode is packed with practical advice, honest reflections, and encouraging reminders that your journey, no matter how winding, can still lead to success. Tune in to hear more insights from Susan Stone and Kristina Supler—and take your grad school journey with confidence! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back with us this week. And every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it truly is. No matter if you're going to business school, law school, med school, doesn't matter, you have made a decision that you want to go to graduate school and no matter where you're gonna be going, it's going to take time, it's gonna take effort, it's gonna take perseverance to get through. And I'm not saying that to scare you away. I'm telling you that because there are things that you can do right now and things that you can do as you go through graduate school to prepare you for that journey that you're going to be on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: And that's why this show exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some different resources and some some hints, some tips, some things to put in your own toolbox to help you on that journey. And today, we've got two great guests with us. Susan Stone and Christina Supler are with us, and they are the co chairs of KJK's Student and Athlete Defense Title IX Practice Group. This is a group that's dedicated to support students in crisis and addressing their legal needs. And this is a topic that we haven't really talked about. We haven't talked about as you're going into applying to graduate school, many times on the application, you're going to see questions that'll ask you if you've had any criminal charges that you've had in the past, and you have to disclose those things to be able to be able to apply. And sometimes that scares people. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:57]: And we'll talk about some of that today. And we'll also talk about Susan and Christina's own journey in going to graduate school themselves. But I'm really excited to have Susan and Christina here. Susan, Christina, thanks so much for being here today. Susan Stone [00:02:12]: Thanks for having us. Kristina Supler [00:02:14]: Thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. As I said, we haven't really talked about this topic before. But before we jump into that topic, on the legal side, I love getting to know both of you a little bit more in regards to the journey that you went on because both of you are lawyers and you went through graduate school. And I guess for you, as you were considering and thinking, take me back to that point where you said to yourself, I wanna go to graduate school. What was the reason and what made you to make that decision that you wanted to take that next step? Kristina Supler [00:02:48]: Well, I am one of those bizarre, peculiar people who, as a child, knew exactly what I wanted to do, and then I actually did it. So your question, Chris, takes me back to my childhood. I think about being a student in fourth grade at Notre Dame Elementary School, and we had a career project. We had to do a report on what do you wanna be when you grow up. And I said, mom, dad, I wanna be a lawyer. And so my mother connected me with a real estate lawyer, which is kind of funny because, of course, I don't do anything in that realm. But did a project, did some interviews, learned more about what it is to be a lawyer. And fast forward, went through undergrad at Boston University where I obtained a degree in European history, highly useful, drawn my degree every day in my life, and then ultimately obtained my law degree from Cleveland Marshall College of Law. Kristina Supler [00:03:39]: So I love what I do, and I'm happy to be here today to talk about what we do. What about you, Susan? Susan Stone [00:03:44]: I'm gonna be a lawyer and answer but not answer, Chris, because I am attending my daughter's graduation from Wharton where she's getting her MBA, and I also have a son at MBA school at Cornell. I am reflecting because it's graduation time on the choices they made versus the choice I made and what advice I would give to people. I also have the same story as Christina, so I won't bore you with that. Always wanted to be a lawyer, went straight through. But I see through my two adult children that both of them took time after undergrad and worked and reflected before they went into graduate school, and I really think that was the smarter decision. It is every parent's hope that we raise kids smarter than ourselves, and I achieved that goal because while I love being a lawyer, I love it because I created a niche that worked for me. But if given a couple years to muse and think, maybe I would have considered other options. I was just so strong in the narrative that I should be a lawyer. Susan Stone [00:04:54]: Whereas I see that my children took more time, worked a little, asked a lot more questions, and took a different path than what they thought. So my daughter, who's getting her MBA in health care consulting, originally wanted to be a doctor. My son, who graduated with a degree in finance, mused for a couple years while he worked, do I want to be a lawyer? Do I want to be a doctor? Do I want to be a candlestick maker? He's going into investment banking. So I recommend you do a little work. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:27]: Great points. And definitely, I've seen students that do that. And it's you do have to do your research, you do have to do that self reflection to be able to get there. And speaking of self reflection, both of you chose different law schools in in the paths that you chose. And there are many different law schools that are out there. Now the interesting part is that you both were in Ohio, not too far from each other, and you went to law schools in that same region. But I guess talk to me about that decision making process for yourselves and how you ultimately came to the decision of the law schools that you chose to attend. Kristina Supler [00:06:05]: Susan, why don't you go ahead? Susan Stone [00:06:07]: Well, I was engaged and I knew that we were coming back to Cleveland. Case Western gave me a scholarship, and it was a wonderful education. And that really is not that exciting of a story. I wish I had more. I think that, again, with a little reflection, a little maturity, maybe I would have explored differently. Again, I look at my married daughter graduating from graduate school. She got married and then made the decision to go to a different city for her MBA program from her husband and the time flew, that wasn't in my world view decades ago. Kristina Supler [00:06:48]: And, Chris, my situation is not unlike what Susan described. I was away living my best life in Boston, but I came back for my hometown, honey, my now husband. And and really the choice was simple. It came down to scholarship dollars. You know, I was putting myself through law school. And when you look at through through the lens of, you know, who's giving me the best scholarship award, that it was an easy choice. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: And I've said this before, but law school is expensive. I I worked at a law school for ten years. I know how much debt that people can come out. So you do have to look at all those factors as you're making your decisions because in the end you have to pay that back. So it is important to understand that. Now both of you were successful in going through law school. You got through, you got through the bar, you did all of those things. As you transitioned into law school and went through law school, there are definite things that you have to learn along the way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:47]: Going to law school is very different than any other type of education than you would have had in the past and you probably will ever see in the future. But that in mind, what did you have to do as you transitioned in and through law school that helped set you up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your law school experience? Susan Stone [00:08:08]: I'm gonna praise my law partner, and I'm gonna guess because I didn't go to law school with her. We are different generations that went to different law schools, but Christina Soupler is an outstanding writer. I read her writing every day. So first and foremost, Christina, wouldn't you agree? And the reason I'm not having you answer it because I know you are too far far too humble to tell the truth, but it's writing skills. Kristina Supler [00:08:34]: Certainly. Being a lawyer, writing is is essential. To build off of Susan's point, back it up even a little bit further than that. And this is believe it or not, Chris, it's conversations Susan and I are having with colleagues and peers on on a daily basis. The big a what's the big a? Analysis, analysis, analysis. So I I came into law school thinking, oh, I have such good study skills. I know how to read and memorize and I'm gonna show up for my exam having put in countless hours. I'm gonna be ready to nail it. Kristina Supler [00:09:07]: Oh, wait. That's only part of being a lawyer. The other part and arguably the more essential part of being a talented lawyer is being able to engage in critical analysis. So wrestling with facts, running those facts through different lenses, figuring out how can I twist and turn these facts to obtain the goal that my client is seeking? And that is no matter what your other talents and skills are, a lawyer, successful lawyer, must be Susan Stone [00:09:37]: able to engage in critical analysis. I wanna bootstrap what Christina said because you've kinda touched on a little nerve. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:44]: I was Kristina Supler [00:09:44]: gonna say, did I touch a nerve, Susan? Susan Stone [00:09:46]: Well, you did touch a nerve and it's a nerve we share, so I'm not gonna disagree. The blessing of AI is that everything comes at your fingertips, and legal research is so different today. You literally put in what you want and the computer spits it out. The problem is it short circuits the ability to really think through a problem and be creative. And what I don't see anymore in the talent that's coming in is what I call big picture thinking and out of the box thinking. And that only comes with sitting in a space of discomfort, reading different ideas, maybe those that are not even perfectly matched to your query that you put in a computer, and tapping into creativity. I see a lot of written work where I ask a question, it spits it out, and that they think is the answer, and they can't play mental chess. Being a lawyer is just mental chess, and I don't know how we fix that with the technology that's emerging. Susan Stone [00:10:59]: We're hearing that people can use AI to write their briefs and do their legal research, but what AI can't do is set up a case, tell you your next move. And I'm at a loss, Chris. Breach. Double breach. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:13]: It's definitely hard. Yeah. It's definitely hard. I you know, more and more, we're seeing students that use AI for different parts of their application, and it becomes easier and easier to see when you're getting applications from certain countries and letters look the same or statements look the same. And but I definitely hear you. I've worked I've worked with plenty of lawyers and students that wanted to be lawyers and know how and students that wanted to be lawyers and know how much analysis went into the courses that they went through. And that was before AI in the version that it currently exists. So I can only imagine the challenges that law schools are having to deal with right now. Kristina Supler [00:11:52]: Chris, your comments making me think about our own practice and the work Susan and I do daily with our students. We represent a lot of students in academic integrity cases. And in this day and age, let's face it, most of the quote unquote cheating cases have some tie in to the use or improper use of AI. And it's really remarkable you sharing how from your perspective as as a director, you can sort of spot the essays or the writing. And what we are seeing when we're working with students as well is an ability or perhaps inability to answer questions about the steps along the way to reach the answer. And I will tell you, it is quite glaring at times. Not always, but at times. I mean, Susan, do you recall that one situation we had where there was an issue of AI hallucinations? Susan Stone [00:12:47]: I mean, it's remarkable what what you see. I feel as if AI has dulled instinct. Kristina Supler [00:12:55]: Oh, interesting thought. Yeah. That's something to wrestle with because on the one hand, we wanna I believe we should embrace technology, but of course, responsible use of technology. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:06]: Now you just tired us talking about some of the different people that you work with in the practice that you both have and supporting students as they're going through this process. And I talked about the fact that your practice group handles complex cases involving allegations. This could be sexual assault. It could be academic integrity. It could be there's lots of different aspects to what your practice is working toward. I guess from a high level, there are going to be individuals that when they're looking at graduate school that have had these, we'll call them dings on their record, right? Some things happened in the past and some are going to be more severe than others, but there's always that question that is going to come up on a application that is going to ask them to disclose. And I know that in the minds of many students, some students may say, you know, should I even put this down? Has this been expunged? Has it been long enough that I don't have to say anything about this anymore? What do you say to those students? Well, you Susan Stone [00:14:09]: have to look at the prompt. If the prompt asks for it, you have to give the tell the truth. It's that simple. Kristina Supler [00:14:14]: I was gonna say I wish we had some secret sauce here and we we'd shared trade secrets, Chris, but it really is. Regularly, we say to clients over and over, read the question. Read it very carefully. Read the question two, three, four plus times. Every school can have different there's the common app, but then schools have their own questions, essays, so on and so forth. Read the question very carefully. Susan Stone [00:14:39]: Less is more. You have to be truthful, but you don't have to gut yourself either. Read the question. Answer the question. I call it a sandwich approach. Tell them what happened. Tell them the consequence. Tell them how you grew. Susan Stone [00:14:55]: Be done. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:55]: Now and I will say that there are times where a university may ask you for more information. So from my perspective, from the admission side of things, there are times where if a student has a felony on their record and they were put on probation or they went to jail and they had a parole period, I would probably ask that person to show that they are off parole and to get those court records to be able to show us that that is the case. So you have to watch your email as well and make sure that if you're being asked for something that you do what you can to provide that. Kristina Supler [00:15:40]: That reminds me of a situation we had where there was a debate about what was or wasn't requested by the school, but the issue involved college credits from a different institution and the student didn't ultimately complete the semester. And so it was an issue of is something was that brief period of time at a university subject to disclosure? And, you know, Chris, I'll be curious as to your thoughts. I mean, do you think it's it's in a student's best interest to air on the side of disclosure? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:11]: I tend to say yes, but it also comes down to how they ask the question, just like you were saying, because if they ask for all transcripts from all institutions, now if you never matriculated to an incident, you were accepted, maybe you went but then dropped out in the first week, there's really not gonna be a record of you at that institution. There's not really gonna be a transcript of you at that institution. Now, depends on how the university is asking and whether they're asking for all matriculations or if they're asking for or all enrollments, or all completed terms, you know, there's lots of different words that could mean something just a little bit different. So you can see how this can become a little bit more complex than just saying, is it or isn't it? Susan Stone [00:17:01]: And don't overcomplicate it. Read the question. If they ask where you enrolled, tell them where you were enrolled. I should let people know there is a national clearing house. The minute you do enroll, there is documentation. All schools have access to that clearing house. Just read...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/36891850
info_outline
Key Shifts Prospective Graduate Students Must Know: Insights from Enrollment Professionals
06/09/2025
Key Shifts Prospective Graduate Students Must Know: Insights from Enrollment Professionals
Are you considering grad school in today’s ever-evolving landscape? This week’s episode of “Victors in Grad School” delivers a must-listen conversation directly from the heart of the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals (NAGAP) conference. Host gathers real-time insights from experts, admissions leaders, and graduate support professionals about the most pressing shifts shaping the graduate school experience in 2024—and what they mean for your journey. AI & Authenticity One theme echoed by multiple guests is the rise of artificial intelligence, both in the application process and the workplace. While AI tools can help streamline your application, admissions teams stress the importance of letting your authentic self shine. Be cautious about relying too heavily on tools like ChatGPT—admissions counselors can usually spot AI-generated essays. Use technology as support, but make sure your personality and individual story come through. Holistic Admissions & Diverse Backgrounds The pandemic shifted perspectives around achievement. Rather than just seeking candidates with extensive internships or perfect test scores, many programs are now looking at the whole person. Did you juggle jobs with school? Are you a first-generation student? Your resilience, resourcefulness, and personal growth matter more than ever. Funding, Fit & Flexibility Cost is a growing concern, and our experts urge applicants to ask (and keep asking) about scholarships, assistantships, and other financial support. In addition, with the exponential growth of online and hybrid offerings, it’s crucial to understand various learning formats and select what truly fits your needs. There’s also more pressure than ever for grad programs to demonstrate real modern-world relevance—so do your homework and talk to admissions reps, not just online reviews or forums. Evolving Skills for the Future The episode also explores how the demands of the workforce are shifting. Communication and soft skills—especially in an AI-enhanced environment—are becoming more critical. Programs are adapting to prepare students not just for today’s job market, but for tomorrow’s unpredictable opportunities. Why You Should Listen If you’re serious about graduate school, don’t miss this episode. You’ll walk away with honest, actionable advice and a clearer sense of what it takes to stand out—and thrive—in today’s graduate landscape. Ready to dive deeper? Listen now for practical tips and insider perspectives that could make all the difference in your grad school quest! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question is what's a shift you're seeing that today's prospective students should be aware of as they consider applying to graduate school. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on. Stacy Goldstein [00:01:03]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions, thing is being your cheerleader for my students. Invest in yourself. It is competitive with jobs and AI is on the rise, so it can be challenging when applying for jobs or graduate school. When you're writing an admissions essay or doing your resume, please try not to rely on chat GBT that much. I know it's tempting, but I hate to break it to you, we can tell. We can definitely tell assert writing style or the dashes, but we wanna know you. Stacy Goldstein [00:01:38]: So really try to you can utilize the AI, that's fine, But put in a sense of who you are even through a piece of paper. We wanna get to know you. Be confident. Let that personality shine through and best of luck. Donna Wang Su [00:01:54]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at Northwestern University, Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I think a shift that I am seeing as students are applying to grad school today, I think is that vulnerability. I think that COVID really changed things a bit in the sense of people are leaning a bit into not following. Here's that checklist. I'm gonna check everything off. And they're looking at other opportunities, and I think trying to find the lessons there, and that's something that I truly value. I think us in the admissions offices are also looking at things a little differently. Donna Wang Su [00:02:33]: We talk about there's that book Privileged Poor where we will consider, oh, this person doesn't have a lot of internships. But as I look at their resume, maybe they're a first generation college student and they don't have that financial luxury to take an unpaid internship in this field or industry. But I've seen that they've worked two, three different jobs while also going to school full time. What lessons have they picked up? What professional maturity have they picked up from this kind of time management? And so I think there's become more of a focus on that holistic admissions and holistic graduate student approach as well. Santavaya Jordan [00:03:10]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. The biggest thing I see with students in particular is looking at what funding is available and if funding is even gonna be offered due to the political climate. And I can tell you that many of the schools they're fighting to find funding for students to encourage you to still be in these spaces. We definitely want you to be at our institutions to be able to thrive and not focus on how you're gonna pay for a school. So I know that has been a big concern that's happening. Also, another thing is even with testing, a lot of the students are worried about GRE scores or even, like, some that it may have GMAT scores, but a lot of schools are getting rid of that and a lot of them are taking holistic approach to look at other applicants, getting ready for testing because there is a lot of bias within looking at applicants. So I would definitely say although you may be studying for a GRE or studying for a GMAT, don't rule out all the other background things that you may have done with whether it's research or even maybe even had a paper published. Santavaya Jordan [00:04:07]: Those different type of things can really set you apart when applying for graduate school. So don't focus on your negatives that you may not have. Look at all the positive things and look at other ways to engage in your institution. If you don't have research experience, look at your institution and talk with different faculty and see if you can get in their lab. Pick up lab skills and learn new things that really help you advance your application. Paul Brandano [00:04:31]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the Master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. So we're seeing a few shifts when we think about who our cohorts are. I would say first and foremost, it's a generational shift. When we think about Gen Z who's now a growing part of our population, I think the advantages they bring is that they care a lot about authenticity. They care a lot about making a difference in the world, being socially conscious. And I think these are all things that are going to be valuable in their careers. Of course, the political environment is always changing, so they've gotta be aware of that. Paul Brandano [00:04:59]: But I think that at the end of the day, they tend to have their head in the right place place when it comes to picking up the job of basically taking over the world eventually. I would also say that they tend to be because of the pandemic and because of the challenges they faced, either more resilient or less resilient. And I think that, you know, depending on their personal experience through that, we see it as either a strength or a gap. I think as long as the students are aware of that, that it's probably had an effect and are self aware enough to acknowledge it, it becomes an opportunity rather than a limitation. Emily Dayton [00:05:31]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of a specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Rady School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. What I'm seeing is that with the growth of generative AI tools and AI assisted work environments, that what is becoming even more important is a focus on strong communication skills. I work with very quantitative and technical programs, and the shift that we're starting to do is that we're preparing our current graduate students for a work environment. We'll be more of a conductor of an AI tool that's doing most of the quantitative and technical lift. And so really what sets students apart and job candidates apart are their communication soft skills. Tony Fraga [00:06:19]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. So many students are applying to a lot more schools today than ever before. It's not just applying to a couple of programs. We're seeing huge amounts of volume increase, almost like undergrad levels, at the grad level. That's just becoming normal. So now grad schools, you have to understand, are dealing with a large influx of applicants, but not necessarily great on yield on return. Tony Fraga [00:06:49]: And I think you need to be aware that you may need to be open to some more programs than you think. You also might not get accepted to some of the ones you want to get into. Others are gonna be so hungry, they want to make it work for you. And I'd find a blend of that and find, hey, what's your price point? And are you applying to enough different grad schools? Have you opened and considered other grad programs that you might not have thought? Don't just go for the an MBA, the main ones. Be open to new programs that are more modern, frankly. Are you getting an analog grad degree in a digital age? We need more modern grad programs, and a lot of them are there, but you gotta find them. And they might not be named what you think the grad degree is. So I'm seeing a lot of grad students apply to more because they're educating themselves and finding there's these other kinds of programs out there. Adrian Peralta [00:07:37]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I myself am a graduate international special populations admissions counselor. Look at online, hybrid, and in person. And if you don't understand the difference between the three, definitely ask questions. And sometimes, programs might say they're online, but, really, they might be hybrid. Some might say they're hybrid really in person. Adrian Peralta [00:08:02]: So definitely ask those questions, and please always make those informed decisions and just lead with knowledge. That's the best way to choose everything. Jeremiah Nelson [00:08:15]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. I think a lot of people are shortcutting their research process while they're evaluating schools. A lot of use of AI to accelerate their application process and maybe not going through the same due diligence that I've seen in the past. And I think that in the long run, you're much better if you invest fully in understanding the schools that you're applying to and being a little bit more selective than doing kind of a a ray shot, kind of application strategy. Naronda Wright [00:08:54]: Hello. I'm Naronda Wright. I serve as the associate associate dean of graduate student services at Jordan Southern University and also a service at NAGAP president. Enrollment is important on our campuses right now, so making sure that you are a good fit for that program that you are applying for and being admitted to so you can progress and graduate and make sure that you are contributing to growth and advancement and things like that on our campuses. So just making sure that what you're doing is what you wanna do and it's a good fit. Irene Aiken [00:09:23]: I'm Irene Aiken. I'm the Dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. A shift student should be aware of is the jobs that are gonna be in the future. And in particular, companies want students who have skills of today's needs, which include AI and the use of AI and how AI is gonna change their job. Irene Aiken [00:09:48]: Grad schools are coming back around to the idea of test scores. We saw that with undergrad recently where test scores are coming back. They was they're optional for a while, and now a lot of schools are moving back in that direction. I think faculty get very concerned about the performance of students, and particularly, it's kinda cliche, but post pandemic, grad schools are seeing a decline in students' ability to do graduate level work. And I think that has a lot to do with their student experience over the years, but faculty are kind of going back to the tried and true method of well, they should take this, they should take that. So be aware of that and be aware of changes in how faculty assess the academic readiness of graduate students when they enter programs. Marcus Hanscon [00:10:35]: Hi. My name is Marcus Hanscon. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools. Students do so much on their own without talking to anybody. They spend so much time online. They rely on Reddit. They rely on other technology and AI, and there's certainly value to that. And you wanna get some external opinions and thoughts and see what kind of evaluators are saying about your programs. Marcus Hanscon [00:10:58]: But nothing beats actually talking to the people and getting in there beyond just doing your own web research. And a lot of students, they don't talk to anybody until after they apply. And they miss out on that opportunity to not only learn about a good program, but also learn what a program is not right for them. So why waste your time applying to a program that ultimately isn't gonna be the right fit? And you can usually wean that out by talking to an admissions rep or faculty or students very early in your process before you ever apply. Sabrina Brown [00:11:26]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. The many roles that graduate education does play, I see that higher education is not as trusted by the intent of higher education is both different for everyone and what people think the outcome should be. And it's not just return on investment or getting another job, a higher paying job, or sort of economically focused. Higher education serves a lot of purposes. And so we see this shift in terms of what is coming out of or going into higher education and what that value means to the public, but I think that it's important for prospective students to really be grounded in what does this endeavor do for you and how does that shift your life and your ability to live the best life that you're creating for yourself. Addie Caudle [00:12:30]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. Students really being more cautious about the programs they're looking at. They're wanting to make sure that these programs relate to where they wanna be in life, whether it's their goals, whether it's they wanna be in academia or industry. All of that is going to depend significantly on the type of program that they're going for. Melissa Yeung [00:12:53]: I'm Dr. Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the School of Physical and Occupational Therapy at Bowling Green State University. I think the cost of education, you know, cost is always on the forefront of of students' mind, and the availability of support is, I think, becoming more important for students. So those are the two things that I think it's coming up to the forefront compared to the trends that we're seeing maybe five or ten years ago. James Monahan [00:13:25]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. The biggest shift that is happening right now in higher education in general is going to online programs and you need to figure out what's right for you, whether you want a fully online program or maybe you need a hybrid type program. I think that's really important and something that everyone should keep in mind when they choose their graduate studies. Jamie Crampton [00:13:54]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. AI. Absolutely. I mean, AI is sadly, but also positively becoming more and more widely used across the world. Jamie Crampton [00:14:18]: And I feel like not just in education during your studies, but also post enrollment when you actually get a job and a career, more and more jobs are going to look for people with AI experience. And I think that's a key thing is just understand AI, use AI, and then learn how to apply that to your education, but also professionally afterwards as well. Ben Webb [00:14:44]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Used to be on the admission side at multiple schools across the country. There's a lot of programs that are out there in world. So it's figuring out a lot of the MSBA programs or AI or computer science. What do you wanna do? Do you wanna be an AI manager, or are you looking to be a tactical person that's actually using the data? So I think we're we're starting to see a shift of overload of programs. There's a lot coming out with the same names. So how do we kinda start to differentiate which one is gonna be the best fit? So understanding and finding you want the degree, but what within that degree is what you're really looking to get in a world where many universities of various sizes are offering the same thing. Matt Bohlen [00:15:31]: Hey, everybody. My name is Matt Bohlen, and I'm senior director of client success with Carnegie. Been here about four years now. Before that, I worked about twenty years in ed, a couple different institutions in the state of Michigan. Loved working in higher ed, but also I love helping higher ed as a consultant now too. I think the shifts of how to pay for college is something that's important. Historically, you know, we relied a lot on internships or assistantships. Nowadays, I think it's okay to ask what type of funding is available because there's so much competition in the market. The graduate programs have to be realistic that there are scholarships that need to be...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/36635695
info_outline
What Most Grad Students Overlook: Essential Support Services and Strategies
06/02/2025
What Most Grad Students Overlook: Essential Support Services and Strategies
Navigating graduate school is a journey filled with both promise and challenge. While many students focus on selecting the right program or acing their classes, there’s a world of support—often overlooked—that can make all the difference. In the latest episode of Victor’s in Grad School, brings together enrollment professionals, faculty, and industry experts from universities across the country to answer a vital question: What’s an underrated support service or strategy that can make a big difference for student success? A powerful theme that emerges is the value of community and connection. From networking with recruiters and professionals, to seeking out mentors and joining student organizations, building intentional relationships is a recurring piece of advice. of UC San Diego urges students to “network, network, network”—not just for job opportunities, but to foster professional connections that can open unexpected doors. Tapping into campus resources is another underappreciated strategy. Whether it’s visiting the writing center as recommended by of UNC Pembroke, or taking advantage of the library’s knowledgeable staff and resources, graduate students are reminded that these supports go far beyond undergraduate basics. Several guests, like Matt Bohlen, highlight that services often assumed to be for undergrads—such as tutoring and consulting—are invaluable at the graduate level. Career and professional development also take center stage. According to , a proactive approach to career services—like participating in mock interviews—can directly impact post-graduate outcomes. Meanwhile, from UCLA underscores the importance of identifying and addressing skill gaps before and during your program, whether by brushing up on technical skills or improving communication through creative outlets. Finally, there’s a strong message about attending to mental health and personal well-being. Multiple voices stress the significance of using counseling services and seeking support from faculty, mentors, and peers. “Don’t suffer in silence,” advises Emily Dayton, reminding students they’re not alone on this journey. The episode is rich with practical advice, personal stories, and a refreshing honesty about the realities of graduate education. If you’re considering graduate school or already on your journey, this conversation is an essential listen to ensure you’re not missing out on the resources that can propel you to success. Tune in, take notes, and empower your grad school experience! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question is what's a underrated support service or strategy that can make a big difference for student success. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on. Stacy Goldstein [00:01:04]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions. And my big thing is being your cheerleader for my students. Network. Network. Network. Network. Stacy Goldstein [00:01:18]: Write down every recruiter's name. So a lot of support strategy or what can you do to be successful. Make the connections you have count. So write down, even if it's an online virtual event, who you spoke with is that recruiter. So next time when you meet them, especially in person, you can make that connection and let them know that you were present. That helps. Donna Wang Su [00:01:40]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at Northwestern University, Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm definitely biased, but I do think that an underrated service is gonna be your financial aid office. And I say that because I do a lot of one on one financial advising with my students, which quickly turns into strategic planning slash career services. Because we'll start talking about budgeting and we'll start talking about, well, I wanna be able to save up to do this. I wanna go explore this. And next you know, it leads down a different path. And I love connecting with students years later who tell me that they still remember tips or use strategies that we've used from our coaching sessions. Santavaya Jordan [00:02:24]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. Definitely, back again, tack into the mental health. Making sure your mental health is intact as much as possible. Not everyone understands and believes how much they need resources to talk to someone whether it's a counselor or even a mentor that you could relate to. Someone that's been in your position before or someone that can just have be an outlet or a resource that doesn't have anything to say or give their own opinion on what you're going through, but a listening ear to ear to help you get through difficult situations, whether it is personally that can affect you academically or something that's academically that can affect you personally. Paul Brandano [00:03:05]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. But with a quantitative master's, I think the the probably more underrated support services are the things that are initially gaps on the technical side. So I I think, for example, about a person who was fantastic in our first cohort, she was, by training, an economist. She was an undergraduate economist and she came into our program and said, I just don't have the Python. I have never programmed in R. I don't really know my SQL. And she said, but I promise you by the time I get into the program, I will have taken a few courses and I plan on spending my Friday nights in the library. Paul Brandano [00:03:39]: And everybody can say that, but she absolutely did it. And I think that the difference it made for her was that she didn't just get hired by the the consulting firm. She got hired by BCG Gamma. You know, she could really walk the walk and talk the talk. So I think I think a lot of folks might underestimate the real leap they can make by just adding a little bit more pre prep before the master's degree. And I see that quite a lot. The other one is, you know, we do a lot with on the other end of the spectrum, if it's non quant, it's communications. And so if you if you come in knowing where your biggest gap is and then look for creative ways of filling them, not all programs are gonna do all of it. Paul Brandano [00:04:11]: And so we add improv as an example. But that improv is available in most major cities. Right? And I always recommend it. It's a great way to to sort of launch your way forward quickly in a short window of time while you're still getting your master's degree. The best time of your life when you're probably your most charismatic. And so I would recommend those kinds of approaches too. Like, look for the creative things that make you shine uniquely, you know, that give you that x factor, that ability to talk about something a little different than the average candidate might hear. Emily Dayton [00:04:41]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of the specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Rady School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. This is something that our faculty say a lot, but we really encourage our students to do not suffer in silence. Most staff and faculty are there to help, and they want students to be successful. So one thing that we do at the Rady School is that our faculty will proactively share the support system that is in place at the start of each quarter, at the start of each class so that our students are aware of the resources that are there before they run into an issue. Tony Fraga [00:05:21]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. For sure, career services. And here is an underrated thing. And I'll just say, I know there are many career services departments that aren't great. They're just kinda meh, and you don't learn a lot. It's maybe captain obvious. Tony Fraga [00:05:40]: Like, make sure you have a LinkedIn profile, and here's three resume templates you can use. Like, you can get that off of ChatGPT and Internet. You don't need a career services department for that, to be honest. A great career services department is will meet with you and help you do things like a mock actual interview before you have an actual interview with an employer. I'd be looking at that. I think that's so underrated. If you cannot just train how to get a degree and learn something, if you can learn how to then interview with a real employer, it can make or break whether or not you get that job. And let me tell you, the next generation coming out, people in their twenties and thirties, they're struggling to find right fit jobs because you're not interviewing well. Tony Fraga [00:06:16]: Tap into your university's career service department. They know how to do it. They see lots of you go through not well, so they have a vested interest in you doing it better. Adrian Peralta [00:06:29]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I, myself, am a graduate international and special populations admissions counselor. Definitely understand student accounting and financial aid. Those are your two biggest portions that will help you onboard to the university you want to in the right way and help you understand what opportunities are out there to fund your degree and finance it, you know, also. But also look at graduate assistantships. That also is a really big thing that we see these days. Jeremiah Nelson [00:07:06]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. The most underrated support service is probably taking advantage of networking and career and professional development while you're a graduate student. A lot of people think about their academics while they're in school and think that that comes next, But it doesn't matter how smart you are or how much you know if nobody knows who you are. So take the time to once a week, twice a week, reach out to people, make some connections, and try and build some bridges along the way. Dr. Noranda Wright [00:07:43]: Hello. I'm Noranda Wright. I serve as the associate dean of graduate student services at Georgia Southern University and also serve as the Nagat president. I think probably one of the most underrated one is advisement because that's where you're gonna get your information from. So knowing who to talk to if you need help with registering for classes, if you need to change your major, or if you need to just real realize what you need to do in order to advance yourself academically, to be retained as a student, and eventually graduate. So know who your advisors are, know who your program directors are so they can offer that support for you is, I think, is probably one of the most underrated things on our campuses. Irene Aiken [00:08:22]: I'm Irene Aiken. I'm the dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. The underrated support service on campus is often the writing center, but the career center, there are just so many offerings at every campus. I don't think students take advantage of enough. Irene Aiken [00:08:42]: Retention actually makes a big difference. Regular check ins with students sometimes seem like something it's out of reach for a school. I would say with AI, it makes it even easier where you could have an AI agent calling all of your students two or three times a semester just to check on them, see how things are doing, maybe, you know, get them resources, get them help. Marcus Hanscon [00:09:05]: Hi. My name is Marcus Hanscon. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools. Unfortunately, admissions officers are seen as salespeople, and I think that's an unfortunate thing for students cause they assume that whenever they're talking to an admissions person, they're only gonna get one side of the story. And I think the vast majority of the people that I've worked with over seventeen years in graduate enrollment is that they're genuinely out to help the student find the right thing for them. And even if that means telling them to go to another school. So talk to your admissions reps, Call them on the phone. Text with them. Marcus Hanscon [00:09:36]: Email with them. Go and visit them in their offices. Have a candid conversation, and don't be afraid to ask good questions, candid questions, things that you might be worried. Can I ask that or not? Ask the questions. There's no bad question other than the ones that you don't ask. Sabrina Brown [00:09:53]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. Finding ways to make connection and build community to the level that feels like support for you, but oftentimes students think about the efficient way to go through a program. How many credits can I take? Is it online? Is it gonna fit with my commuter schedule? And those are all important things, but going to a new level educationally can feel lonely or it can stretch you in ways that can be surprising and finding those that are kind of alongside side it or have done it before can really be a game changer. But when you're sort of in a space of learning, it can feel vulnerable and scary and sometimes people kind of turn into themselves to feel like they need to be their own support. But I have found that the students that truly are able to raise their hand and say, either I need help or I just need to feel seen in this process, they go farther and feel better about the experience that they have. Addie Caudle [00:10:58]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. It's really the advising and the mentoring. Different institutions kind of address these in different ways. I know our students that we'll see, you know, they we don't have any professional advisors, but we are working on that. That's something I'm actually hiring for right now. And we've got faculty mentors that really work with the departments. But a lot of times, they're not able to get a hold of them due to nine month contracts and really we run into that issue during the summer. Addie Caudle [00:11:26]: Faculty are also so involved in teaching and research of their own projects that sometimes the advising and taking the time to help direct and guide our students where they need for help can become difficult. Melissa Yeung [00:11:42]: I'm Dr. Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the School of Physical and Occupational Therapy at Bowling Green State University. The use of the counseling center and with all the stresses that we all face on a daily basis, whether it's balancing your obligations or just finding an outlet that or someone you can talk to, the counseling center can make a lot of difference. It's also the place where if you you were struggling with something else, they could easily point you to other resources on campus. And being in a good mental space generally is great. It's a good start for academic success. James Monahan [00:12:27]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. I don't know if it's underrated, but I would say that the library is incredibly useful to students and I don't know that they realize it and they don't perhaps recognize that the people that work in the libraries are really there to help them whether it be with research or solving a problem and I think that, you really should go out and check out what they've got available to you. Jamie Crampton [00:12:59]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. At least from The UK side and why I joined Gecko, we're a student engagement platform that helps kind of provide students with the right tools to understand an institution, whether that be prospective or current students, is utilizing admissions staff and also admissions student workers. For me, when I joined university, I became a student worker because my experience prior to enrolling was I was scared. I didn't know who to talk to. Jamie Crampton [00:13:41]: I didn't know if a question was a stupid question. Felt more comfortable speaking with a student worker or an admissions representative because they were so much more friendly and a little bit more approachable. So for anybody listening to this, if you're a prospective or current student, I would say don't be afraid to reach out to the people whose job it is to answer your questions because from a pre enrollment perspective, that really enhanced my journey in which university I decided to go with. But then also when I began my studies, I actually felt like dropping out of university in the first year because I didn't enjoy some of the courses I was enrolled in as part of my degree. I had to do four individual subjects each semester and some of them I was like, I'm doing a marketing degree. Why am I doing finance? Why am I doing accounting? And I was told that after speaking with my representative, my mentor, that this was just the first year and it gets a lot more segmented in terms of my career path and what I wanted to do later on. And so she encouraged me to stick at it, keep going with it, and it will get better. And I'm really glad I listened to her because I almost dropped out. Jamie Crampton [00:14:46]: And instead of dropping out, I end up graduating in the top possible degree class I could have graduated with. So, it was all thanks to her because I was going to drop out if not. So long winded response, but utilize the staff that are there to help you both preenrollment and postenrollment. Ben Webb [00:15:05]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Used to be on the mission side at multiple schools across the country. For me, one of my biggest things that I recommend to people when they're coming into a graduate school, they're gonna go into professional world is mentoring services and and joining things that kinda get you out of comfort zone. So things like Toastmasters, joining your young professional society, figuring out how to speak and communicate effectively, be able to interact with new people, learn new things, like those soft skills and be able to really...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/36635255
info_outline
Finding the Best Grad School Fit: Academic, Personal, and Professional Advice
05/26/2025
Finding the Best Grad School Fit: Academic, Personal, and Professional Advice
Choosing the right graduate program is a big decision that can shape your academic, professional, and personal future. In this episode of Victors in Grad School, brings together a diverse panel of enrollment management professionals and industry experts from across the country to answer a critical question: What’s one piece of advice you would give students to help them better evaluate whether a program is the right fit academically, personally, or professionally? The insights shared in this episode are a goldmine for anyone considering graduate school or helping others navigate the process. One major theme throughout the episode is the importance of self-reflection and self-honesty. Many experts, including (UNC Charlotte) and (Direct Development), urge students to look beyond academic rankings or prestige. Instead, they recommend starting with your "why"—what are your true motivations and career goals? Take the time to evaluate your learning style, your needs for support and community, and how a program aligns with your personal aspirations and circumstances. Research and connection are another recurring theme. Repeatedly, the guests encourage prospective students to look beyond brochures and websites. Instead, make meaningful connections: talk to faculty, current students, and especially alumni in roles or industries you aspire to. (UC San Diego) and (Direct Development) stress the value of these conversations in revealing the actual culture of a program, typical career outcomes, and the lived experiences of people just like you. The academic environment matters too, but it’s not the whole story. Paul Brandano (UCLA Anderson) and (SIU Edwardsville) highlight the importance of evaluating curriculum, faculty engagement, and the level of rigor honestly—you want to be challenged, but also supported. Location and atmosphere are also crucial elements. As (QS) and (Vanderbilt University) point out, a program’s fit is not just about classes and credentials but also about the city or campus setting and the mental health resources available. Can you picture yourself thriving in this new environment? Finally, don’t forget to be proactive! Reach out for more information, as (Carnegie) explains—it’s worth the extra effort to piece together what life as a student there truly looks like. If you’re gearing up for grad school or supporting someone on that journey, this episode is packed with candid, actionable advice. Listen in for a wide range of perspectives and start charting your own path to graduate school success! TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question was, what's one piece of advice you would give to students to help them better evaluate whether a program is the right fit academically, personally, or professionally. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on. Stacy Goldstein [00:01:07]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions, and my big thing is being your cheerleader for my students. One piece of advice that I like to give is utilize the resources you have now and work backwards. What does that mean? If you're in school right now, you're getting career resources, have someone look at your resume. So utilize those connections, get to know your faculty. Sometimes they're board members or they sit or they still are a partner. Make those connections, not just LinkedIn, but get to know them. Stacy Goldstein [00:01:42]: And what I mean by work backwards, then follow them on LinkedIn. What job do you wanna do? Look at their profile, see what they did for their graduate studies, see what types of jobs they got, and then that will gauge of which direction and which graduate school you choose. Go for the dream job. Donna Wang Su [00:02:01]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at Jamie Crampton [00:02:05]: Northwestern University, Medill School of Donna Wang Su [00:02:05]: Journalism, Media, Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm a huge fan of strategic planning. So I think to do research, look at careers, jobs that you say to yourself, I could see myself doing that. And doing those kind of informational interviews with people and seeing, you know, what paths have taken them in that direction, whether it was the right mentorship, if it was the right degree, what was it part of the degree? Was it the network? Was it the curriculum? And kind of letting that guide their path there. Santavaya Jordan [00:02:40]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. One great thing I would say is looking at not just the school's ratings, but where the school is located and if you can be in that environment mentally. It's very important for your mental health when you're in a new environment, not only dealing with new people and experiences, but actually the other outlets within that area within the city for you to go to, resources that are on campus, resources that are off campus for your mental health. And that's extremely important, especially if you have other family factors or other life situations that may contribute to or may affect how you matriculate throughout your program. Paul Brandano [00:03:23]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the Master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. Personally, I'm thinking all the time about, first, who they are. So I've I've gotta get to know them quite well before I even begin to answer the question. It's pretty clear from our perspective that there's a certain baseline in a program like ours, which is highly quantitative. And so when we're looking for our fit, we're looking for someone who can swim, not sink. And that's academically, of course, in all the quantitative courses that they might take on with us, and they're quite diverse. So that could be a, you know, a math major, it could be an accounting major, it could be a finance major, undergrad, it could be a computer scientist or an engineer. Paul Brandano [00:04:00]: But they've gotta have some common ability to manage the higher level math. Ideally, they will have taken multirabial calculus and linear algebra. And so if they do have those things, that starts the conversation. Because after that, you're really looking for how much of a fit are they going to be in the next phase of their life, which is their career. And they've just got a short window with us. I think the advantage of an MBA is that you get to be there a while. You get to evaluate for yourself what's the right path, where am I going, and perhaps choose one of those areas I was mentioning, finance, operations, etcetera. Here, we just know that they're going to be specialists and ideally have as broad a breadth of skill sets across those functional areas as possible so that they can, in their career, jump between marketing and finance, etcetera, or between industries. Paul Brandano [00:04:43]: And so what I'm looking for and and and I'm evaluating them, they're evaluating us is, you know, how much of that do they have naturally? And when, you know, just like when you go to a conference or listening to a podcast, you're you're kind of moved more by a person who has that natural charisma, that x factor. And so we're definitely looking for that. Right? You know, is it if you've got those things that sort of stand out to everyone as they've got some magic in them, they're on my admit list. And I think in the middle, it's it's someone who can who has a few gaps to fill. And I think those are the ones, of course, who are gonna get the most from a program like ours. So it's really professional, personal, academic. They all kind of go together. I am looking for a scholar more than I'm looking for someone who just wants to get the job. Paul Brandano [00:05:23]: I think that's really important because it says they're gonna be in it not from not just from me, but for the next phase. Emily Dayton [00:05:31]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of the specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Ravey School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. So my recommendation is to talk to alumni of the program. And if you can, alumni that have similar preprogram traits that are important to you. So maybe an undergrad major or institution, maybe work experience in the same industry or family or support network system. And after talking with them, think about if their experiences resonate with your own motivations for graduate school. Tony Fraga [00:06:11]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. I think of fit first aligning with what it is the outcome you have in your mind of what that success looks like for you. Because when we consider a program, we're actually have an idea. And I would say to you, what Tony Fraga [00:06:30]: is it you have in your mind? I don't Tony Fraga [00:06:30]: care how idealistic it is. You have a vision in your mind of you after you get a pro a degree and what you're doing. And I actually would start professionally first. I'm not saying academically and personally don't matter as much, but I actually would start there because I think that aligns with your vision for you went on this path because of a why. What's your why behind what you'd be looking at here? And you might have not have it all figured out, but you do have this idea in your head of, but I'd like to, I want to, I have a desire to, and you gotta stay rooted in that. I think if it's professionally aligned with your professional goals first, check that box. The next one I would go to is personally, over academically. Because personally, who are you and how do you learn? Do you really know yourself? Because I think a lot of us sometimes aren't honest with how we learn and what mode and kind of environment we're looking for. Tony Fraga [00:07:20]: You may need to be around people more. An online program might not be good for you even though it sounds sexy. And so I think you need to be honest with yourself of honestly, what are your work habits? What are your learning habits? And if you're not honest with that, personally, how you operate, you're gonna sign up for a really cool program that could hit your professional goals, but that you stink at because it's not the right mode for you personally. And then academically, I think you need to be honest with a level of rigor, and looking at the professors and how it's taught, and what are the academics like at that institution. Is this gonna be a like high pace cranky through, but you gotta really be on it? You want a lot of hand holding? I think you need to look at the entire academic experience. Look at the professors, listen to them, listen to their podcasts, read their content. Do you like it? Can you learn from that? That's what I do next. Adrian Peralta [00:08:10]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I, myself, am a graduate international special populations admissions counselor. Please evaluate your career path. That always is the first step. And always understand understand who your support systems are. That also helps you to kinda make that final informed decision. Adrian Peralta [00:08:32]: Always ask questions and make yourself as available as you can be to people who may not be in your profession, but can help you, you know, understand all the different nuances of choosing the right grad program, but as well as selecting your mentors. Jeremiah Nelson [00:08:50]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. Visit. Don't rely on just the website. Talk to people and get to know the culture of the campus and the culture of the student body and the faculty. That helps a lot to make sure that it's a place that you can thrive. Ask a lot of questions. Don't be shy because people are really eager to tell you about their experiences. Jeremiah Nelson [00:09:16]: So go out of your way to make some personal connections. I would also say check-in and find out about outcomes. Ask questions about where people are going, what kinds of, careers they're pursuing, and make sure that that's a good match for you. Because if there's a runway of alumni that are doing the thing that you want to do, there's a much greater likelihood that you're gonna land in a place that's gonna make you happy in the long run. Naronda Wright [00:09:41]: Hello. I'm Naronda Wright. I service the associate dean of graduate student services at Jordan Southern University and also service the Nagat president. One, first, do your research on the program. Know what the admissions requirements are. What are the outcomes? What are the SLOs for a program to find out if it's a good fit for you. We think we want something, then we get into it, and we start taking classes and meeting with faculty and staff, and it's not what we want. So I think the biggest thing upfront for me is the biggest piece of advice is to do your research prior to even applying to a graduate program so you know what you're looking for, and you have a better outlook on your graduate program. Irene Aiken [00:10:16]: I'm Irene Akin. I'm the Dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. First of all, they need to shadow someone who is in the field and speak with a lot of people who are in that field and with those credentials to see if that's the job that they want to do in the future. Ray Lutsky [00:10:38]: Hey there. This is doctor Ray Lutzky, vice president for strategic partnerships at Element four fifty one, the AI driven student engagement platform. And one piece of advice I would give students to help them better evaluate whether a program is right fit academically, personally, professionally, is to get a vibe for how the faculty deal with the students. If there are ways to get great education but have a poor experience, And then there are opportunities to find mentorship and lifelong connections and career advice, and the faculty play a big role in that. I think that's one of the key advantages of the on campus experience today still over many online modalities, but I think that's important. And it's also interesting to think. Matt Bohlen [00:11:25]: Alright. My name Marcus Hanscon [00:11:26]: is Marcus Hanscomb. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools, talk to current students and faculty. It's a little extra effort, but it's worth it and actually getting some good value to hear about what kind of research is being undertaken, what kinds of outcomes they could expect for their programs. And it's really critical that you find a program that you're investing your time and money in to find that's a really good fit for you and ultimately gets you to the career goal that you have. Sabrina Brown [00:11:55]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. It's truly taking the time to think about what's sort of going on in your world Sabrina Brown [00:12:07]: as well as the goals or outcomes. Sometimes the goals Sabrina Brown [00:12:08]: or outcomes for you or outcomes for you choosing your program is increased earning potential and very, like, nuts and bolts y, like, what can I do in my career? Sometimes it's what you're hoping to learn and just expanding your ability to learn about the things that you're passionate about or maybe it's expanding your legacy for your family. So really taking stock of that, but I also think taking stock of what's going on in your world and where those things intersect and are gonna pull on you so you can create the best support for yourself. So if you have a lot of competing priorities or passions, what is it gonna look like not just for you to have to sacrifice or make space for this new endeavor, but also the people around you and making sure that you're setting yourself up for success. I think websites and chatting with people and connecting with folks in your intended program is super helpful, but oftentimes prospective students forget themselves in the process when they're just looking at information gathering. So truly insert yourself, what you bring, and all that comes a part of your journey or will be a part of your journey in that evaluation process. Addie Caudle [00:13:20]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. Really look at the program, talk to current students that are in the program, talk to alumni, talk to faculty because ultimately you're gonna be tied to this program for a year, two years, depending on if it's a master's or doctoral program. And you really wanna make sure that this is going to fit what you want to do and what your goals are in life. Melissa Yeung [00:13:45]: I'm doctor Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the school of physical and occupational therapy at Bowling Green State University. Do a deep reflection of what you need as a student, as a learner, depending on where you are in life. If you are someone who requires that faculty be readily on hand for you to just walk into their office and seek advice, then perhaps the hybrid program or an online program may not be a good fit for you. But if you're someone who's working full time and you just need to get into a degree program that you can finish quickly, then perhaps looking into an online program would be a good fit for you. James Monahan [00:14:33]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Number one, I would have them check on the school's website for the curriculum. I think you need to look at what classes you're going to be able to take and make sure it really fits with your interest because there's going to be slight differences from every school and you want something that you're really passionate about. So I would really suggest you go there. And one other thing I'll just add is that trust your instincts. Sometimes there's a school something just appeals to you about the school and that's actually okay and not a bad reason for choosing a program. Ben Webb [00:15:12]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. First of all, pursue your personal preferences, what you think you would enjoy studying. That's the most important factor, I think, in any decision on which program is the right fit. But take that with a pinch of salt and also consider the programs that are...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/36510760
info_outline
From Artist to Leader: Barb Whitney’s Journey in Arts Administration
05/19/2025
From Artist to Leader: Barb Whitney’s Journey in Arts Administration
Thinking about graduate school can sometimes feel overwhelming—especially if you’ve spent years building a career and are contemplating a return to the classroom. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, sat down with , an accomplished artist, educator, and arts administrator, to discuss her inspiring journey through graduate school and how it shaped her professional trajectory. Barb’s story stands as a testament to the transformative power of lifelong learning and the value of embracing new challenges. After earning her undergraduate degree in art history from Kalamazoo College, Barb dedicated years to working in various roles in the arts. However, she reached a pivotal moment: to advance to the role of executive director, she realized further education was essential. With encouragement from mentors and a clear vision for her future, Barb made the courageous decision to pursue a Master of Arts in Arts Administration at the University of Michigan Flint. In the episode, Barb discusses the unique blend of excitement and anxiety that came with returning to school after a significant gap. She candidly describes adapting to newer technologies, learning to ask for help, and finding the most effective ways to study in a graduate-level environment. Her openness about facing a steep learning curve—and conquering it—offers valuable reassurance to anyone wondering if they’re truly “ready” for grad school. A key theme in Barb’s journey is the immense value of practical, real-world application. She simultaneously took on the role of executive director while pursuing her studies, creating an enriching feedback loop between classroom learning and workplace challenges. She also highlights how the University of Michigan’s reputation and rigorous curriculum opened doors for national fellowships, provided invaluable networking opportunities, and allowed her to tailor her education with field trips and independent study projects directly connected to her passions. Barb’s advice for aspiring grad students is both practical and inspiring: seek out ways to fund your education (such as research fellowships), don’t hesitate to ask for support, and recognize the broad impact a graduate degree in the arts can have—not just on your career, but on your community. The arts, she reminds us, are powerful drivers of health, well-being, and creativity in every field. Whether you’re considering grad school immediately after your undergraduate degree or after years in the workforce, Barb Whitney’s story is packed with wisdom and encouragement. Tune in to this episode of Victors in Grad School for a candid conversation filled with actionable advice and hope for anyone on a similar journey. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Louis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Because no matter where you are, as you are either looking at graduate school, thinking about graduate school, preparing for graduate school, or currently in graduate school, it is this continuum, this journey that you go from that first inkling of wanting to continue your education all the way to post graduation. And there are definitely things that you can do day in, day out to prepare yourself, but also to continue to work through the process of finding success in that journey. And that's why this podcast exists. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:04]: Every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone to graduate school or are currently in graduate school that have figured this out for themselves. And everybody has to figure it out in different ways. What I'm trying to do with you is give you some of those tools ahead of time so you don't have to hit so many bumps along the road. So this week we've got another great guest. Barb Whitney is with us. And Barb is an artist, an educator, an administrator. She's done many different things in being a champion for the arts. And through her own experience, not only professionally, but through her education, she started her education at Kalamazoo College and got a Bachelor of Arts in Art History. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: And then after some years of working made a decision, made a decision to continue her education and getting a Master of Arts in Arts Administration. We'll talk more about that. But I'm really excited to have her here. Barb, thanks so much for being here. Barb Whitney [00:02:06]: Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Well, I am excited to have you. You and I have known each other for quite some time over our time working in the Lansing area. And as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate work at Kalamazoo College and you got that bachelor of arts degree in art and art history. And then you graduated and you went off, started getting some experience as an educator, as a program manager, as an administrator, working in the arts in many different ways. And at some point during that professional experience, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go back to school. Bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you wanted to go back to get that graduate degree? Barb Whitney [00:02:55]: I remember the day that I decided to apply. I had been thinking about it for some time. I was in a role working with the Arts Council of Greater Lansing, and I had this incredible boss, Leslie Donaldson, who would regularly ask us, what are you doing and what would you like to be doing as an artist, as an educator, as an administrator, and helped me to envision my potential for the future because I was able to articulate that I wanted to further my education. I started thinking about if I wanted to go beyond being a program manager, which I loved, what that might look like as an executive director, and I knew that I needed to go back to school for that. I found a few different programs that were master's programs in arts administration. And, you know, when I was in my undergrad research way back in the day thinking about colleges, I thought about Kalamazoo College and University of Michigan. And when I had seen the helicopter campus view for the Ann Arbor campus, I was a little intimidated, so I made my application to Kalamazoo College and did my undergrad that way. But then thinking about an advanced degree and knowing that there was a program at University of Michigan Flint, I went and scoped it out. Barb Whitney [00:04:27]: Flint's a community I know somewhat, and went to that beautiful little coffee shop downtown and sat there and had coffee and had lunch. And I just thought, you know, I think I'm ready to make this big change. So within about six months, I had actually made my application to go back to school and been accepted and then gotten a job as an executive director. So I ended up doing my graduate studies at the same time as taking on a role as an executive director. So I did my first three years of being an ED. I was also in graduate school, and my board of directors was incredibly supportive of that time and really saw how much it enhanced our work together to be working in the field and to be learning at the same time using our work as case studies in the classroom and vice versa was really beneficial. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:20]: Now you kinda already mentioned this, but I guess I would love to get into your mind a little bit because there are there are many arts administration programs across the nation. You chose to go to the University of Michigan Flint, and I guess take me back to that point as you were thinking about where to apply, why to apply to that program. What made you ultimately choose the University of Michigan Flint as the program that you ended up with? Barb Whitney [00:05:42]: I knew that I wanted to attend in person, and I'm about an hour away. So I figured if I was already in Lansing, which is about halfway from my hometown, that I could do that travel. So proximity was a factor, but I also knew that I wanted to have some prestige and cache to the work I do, and University of Michigan speaks volumes at the national level. So when I was thinking about doing things like national research fellowships, the University of Michigan name helped a great deal. I wanted something that was academically rigorous. So if I made the commitment to go back to school, I knew I wanted it to be difficult. I knew that was part of the calculus at the time, and I did find that. Doctor. Barb Whitney [00:06:30]: Sarah Lippert was my advisor and was just exemplary in what felt like a million ways, but also very challenging. And that's part of what I've been looking for. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: Now everybody that goes back to school and goes into a graduate degree goes through a transition. You went from undergrad, you had a I'm gonna say a wide gap between going to undergrad and going into graduate school. So you had a transition as well. Not only a transition from how you learned as an undergraduate student to how you were learning as a graduate student, but having to get yourself back into the mindset of being a student again. And you did find success in that journey. You graduated, you got that degree to prepare you for the work that you are doing and to help you in the work that you are doing. Talk to me about what did you have to do as you started in the program to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey? Barb Whitney [00:07:32]: I had to remember how to ask for help. I remember the first of the times we were working with doctor Lippert for a timed written exam. I thought I understood the assignment and thought I answered all the questions really well, and we got them back. And I remember doctor Lippert saying, would anyone like to retake the exam, Barb? And I said, yes, please. I'd like to retake the exam. And in the end, I did have, four point in my graduate courses. But those first few sessions, there was a a steep learning curve around many things. First of all, how to use the online systems. Barb Whitney [00:08:23]: Second of all, the use of technology in the classroom or not. I showed up with my little laptop, and I thought I'd be typing notes, and that was gonna be the right way. But that wasn't actually always the right way. Some professors required handwritten notes because they know the research about retention. So some of it was just learning how to accommodate each different professor in terms of their needs and interests. And some of it was defining for myself what success looks like and then asking for what I needed during those times. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]: So you completed that degree. And at the time you were an executive director working in an art space in the Lansing area. You were leading that work. And I'm sure that in the time that you were in the program, as you said, you were doing that work, and probably testing out some of the things you were learning from class into the work that you were doing. But talk to me about what you learned in that program, and how did it prepare you, not only for the work that you were doing then, but also the work that you do today? Barb Whitney [00:09:21]: Oh, every step of the way, it was beneficial. The coursework ranged from revisiting art history, which is some of my background, to which actually offered us an international field trip to Toronto, which was incredible. One of the most memorable experiences of my schooling was a a field trip we all took to go see Toronto, and it was just remarkable, the camaraderie, the fellowship, the networking that it offered us through that process. But then also, I did do some nontraditional ways of working, which I think I've always done. When I was in undergrad, I took almost a year to travel with a national touring group, and it required some decision making and some thoughtfulness on the part of administration to allow for an exception. And U of M did that for me too. So I had an opportunity for a national research fellowship about arts education during my time at University of Michigan and learning and growing. And I said, Could I do this as part of my work with you? So they waived a grants course for me because I was writing grants and I was able to prove that I garnered several hundreds of thousands of dollars for Lansing Art Gallery and Education Center, where I was the executive director over the course of the previous couple of years. Barb Whitney [00:10:41]: And then by waiving that, I was able to do an independent study that was a national research fellowship. And I don't know that every school would see the value in doing something so nontraditional as part of the work, but it ended up being that it dovetailed with my thesis as well, and that thesis continues to get traction. It's arts education as a fundamental right for youth in The United States. And so I see those when people read your thesis, you see it. And I get those notifications about people who are still using and citing my research. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]: That's always exciting to be able to have people reflecting back on work that you put so much time, effort into to be able to help the profession in some way. And I've had that same experience in work that I've done and things that I put out there. And when you get that ping that shows that someone's read it, you're like, Yay. So definitely I hear you and I feel that excitement that you have in that regard. Now, as you think back to the graduate education that you went through and you think about other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to other students? Whether it is going to someone that's going into the arts or something else, that could help them to find success sooner? Barb Whitney [00:12:06]: I think if you have motivation to go back to school and you're thinking about doing it, there are many ways to make that possible. One thing I wished I had known about was a way to fund my education. My research that I mentioned helped me pay back my student loan within just a couple of years because I was receiving a stipend by doing my research fellowship. I didn't know fifteen years prior when I got out of my undergrad that I could do something like that. There are many ways of garnering resources that can help you go back to school to get your master's or to help you to go to school beyond your k 12 arts education experience. And then I would say too, if you're thinking about a career in the arts, it's so valuable to have a career in the arts because it offers you an opportunity to be with like minded people. We know some of the statistics about what the arts does for communities. It offers vibrant and thriving communities. Barb Whitney [00:13:14]: It trains a dynamic workforce. When we look at creativity in the workforce and it being one of the top assets that employers are looking for, I think that just sort of undergirds the rationale for folks going back to school in the arts. We know that the arts offers better well-being and health in communities, and there are opportunities to go into sort of the arts and in so many different ways, the arts and healthcare, the arts and I mean, we know there are also lots and lots of creative opportunities and careers like architecture, any kind of music related career, and thinking about the ways that vibrant and thriving communities work, the arts are embedded in those efforts. So I think a career in the arts and the degree that are incredibly valuable. And I think a lot of cities and communities are recognizing that more and more too. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:11]: Well, Barbara, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing the things that you learned and how you put them into place in your own professional career. And I truly wish you all the best. Barb Whitney [00:14:24]: Thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/36510205
info_outline
Overcoming Challenges: Kevin Sellon Talks Disabilities, Graduate School, and Advocacy
05/12/2025
Overcoming Challenges: Kevin Sellon Talks Disabilities, Graduate School, and Advocacy
Graduate school is a transformative journey for many, but for , it became a bridge between his military service, personal challenges, and his passion for making a difference in the lives of others. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, sat down with Kevin, a master’s student in at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss his challenges and triumphs. Kevin shared invaluable insights about his decision to pursue graduate education, balancing life with a disability, and how his education empowered him for meaningful work in advocacy. The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education Kevin’s path to graduate school was shaped by personal and professional experiences. After earning his associate’s and bachelor’s degrees, Kevin expected the doors of opportunity to open wide, but his journey took an unexpected turn when a job offer was rescinded due to his military-related disability. This experience sparked Kevin’s resolve to better understand disability laws and advocate for others in similar situations. Supported by his family—particularly his wife—Kevin decided to pursue his long-standing goal of earning a master’s degree. His choice also resonated with his passion for helping others, finding new purpose after military service, and advocating for the rights of individuals with disabilities. Selecting the Right Program Choosing the University of Michigan Flint was both strategic and serendipitous for Kevin. After considering a few options, including Grand Valley State University, he was elated to receive his acceptance letter from U of M Flint. He admired the institution’s academic excellence and flexibility, especially its distance-learning programs, which suited his needs both as a nontraditional student and an individual with a service-related disability. For Kevin, gaining acceptance felt like the beginning of a dream fulfilled—a step closer to achieving his master’s degree. Adapting to Graduate School Life Kevin’s journey back into academia posed challenges, especially after an educational gap and balancing family, work, and school commitments. To set himself up for success, Kevin emphasized time management and self-care. By taking small, consistent steps—such as dedicating even fifteen minutes a day to projects—and allowing time to digest information, Kevin found ways to stay motivated. He highlighted the importance of stepping back to recharge, spending time with loved ones, and not overwhelming oneself with too much at once. These strategies helped him navigate the complexities of graduate education. Disability Advocacy and Professional Growth As an employee of Disability Advocates of Kent County, Kevin directly applies what he learns in his master’s program to his role. He educates both employers and individuals about ADA laws, ensuring mutual understanding and compliance. Beyond this, Kevin is spearheading a veteran-focused program where he assists veterans in managing their care and remaining in their homes—a fitting endeavor given his background and passion. His education has enhanced his ability to view problems holistically, process complex information, and meaningfully contribute to his organization. Advice for Future Graduate Students Kevin emphasized the importance of seeking personal growth, even when faced with adversity. For individuals with disabilities, he encouraged them to take that leap into graduate education, as their unique perspectives are vital in advocacy and policy-making. Additionally, Kevin advised approaching large projects step by step and leveraging support networks, whether through family, mentors, or university resources. Kevin’s story demonstrates the profound impact of determination, resilience, and education. By leaning into his passion for advocacy and persevering through challenges, he’s carving a new path of service and empowerment. His journey offers a valuable roadmap for anyone considering graduate school as a means of turning their personal experiences into actionable change for others. Call to Action: To learn more about graduate opportunities at the University of Michigan Flint, visit . And remember—your journey can lead to purpose and impact, just as Kevin’s has. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the victors in grad school podcast. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it is a journey and you have made a choice. You've made a choice to start either start thinking about graduate school. You've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Maybe you're in graduate school right now, and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you're on a journey. It's a continuum that you're going to be going through to be able to take those steps one day at a time as you're working toward the goals that you've set for yourself. And that's why this podcast exists. I am so excited to have you here today to be able to help you on this journey because there are things that you can do right now, as you're listening, as you leave our conversation today, to be able to take those micro steps or macro steps that'll help you along that path to help you define success as you work toward that graduate degree. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences to be able to allow you to learn from what they've learned. And it could be positive things. It could be negative things too. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: We'll be honest. Graduate schools can sometimes be challenging, can be hard. And that's another reason for that, for our conversations every week is that we want to keep it real. We want to have opportunities for you to be able to learn from what others have learned as well. And today we've got another great guest. Kevin Sullen is with us today. And Kevin is a current public administration student at the University of Michigan Flint. He has worked for many years with disability services and continues now working on his graduate degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: And to get there, though, he got his first associate's degree at Tacoma Community College and then went on to the Evergreen State College to get his Bachelor of Arts while also being in the military and serving The US. And I'm really excited to be able to talk with him about his own journey, which led him to graduate school to help you on your journey. Kevin, Kevin, thanks so much for being here today. Kevin Sellon [00:02:39]: Thank you for having me, doctor. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:40]: It is my pleasure to have you here today. Really excited to be able to talk to you. And first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. So I want to go back. I said that you were in the military and I thank you for your service and I want to go back. I said that you got your associate's degree and your bachelor's degree out on the West Coast. And at some point after you got that bachelor's degree, after you left the military, you made a choice that you wanted to go back to graduate school. Bring me back to that point. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:15]: And what was going through your head and what made you decide that going to graduate school was the right choice at that point in time in your life? Kevin Sellon [00:03:24]: Well, when I look back at it, when I graduated with my bachelor's degree, I thought everyone's gonna be standing there with opportunities here. Take this. Take this. And I found it kind of that next purpose, I guess you could say. And the education that I received from Evergreen State College was leadership, entrepreneurship, and that was kind of the focus of that arts degree. And so I looked around a little bit and decided, well, I'm gonna try to get a a position with this company. I'll just keep it with that. And two weeks before I was to start training for this company, they revoked my offer of employment based strictly on the disability that I had from the military. Kevin Sellon [00:04:06]: So at the time, I didn't know any organization like Disability Advocates of Kent County existed. So I had my journey of trying to prove a point. It was was the main thing. I was trying to prove to this organization that the Americans with Disability Act isn't just a policy, something that can be pushed away or anything like that. It's law. And why is it that it's so difficult for that to be followed for some employers? So my journey led me back to Michigan where I'm originally from after retiring out of the military. And while here, I I was working for another company as an expediter, and I decided my personal goal in life was to at least achieve a master's degree. So I just brought it up to my wife because I knew it was gonna be a strenuous journey at times. Kevin Sellon [00:04:55]: So I brought it up with her, and she, of course, was very supported, and that was really my deciding factor on having her support while I take this journey. And while in the graduate school, I attended a class with professor Sachs on disability law and, the disability policy. Once I took that class, I just had this revelation, I guess you could say, of the same thing happened to me. And, again, I really got a deep dive into the law, and I forced myself to learn as much as I could. And then that's when I found Disability Advocates also that the position here that I have is as an ADA compliance, I guess you could say, employment assistant, I guess you could say. Because what we do is when people come in here and they have an issue with accommodation or something like that, I help educate the employer as well as the consumer that comes in to talk to me on what their rights are and what the employer's responsibilities are. Because it's not just also to protect the person with disability, but it also does protect the employer as well. So I try to work together educating those two, and that's what led me to this passion. Kevin Sellon [00:06:04]: I really because it's a great law. It's been amended in 02/2008. However, I believe it does need a little bit more, I guess, for lack of a better word, a little more punch, you know, because it's so easy for employers to kind of get around that. And people, again, like I said, really don't know their rights when it comes to accommodations and whatnot. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:25]: So you've now been in the program for a little bit of time. And as you decided to go to graduate school, you probably did some research. You looked around, you tried to determine what was going to be the best fit for you, and you ultimately did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint, and you are attending via distance. So talk to me about that process for yourself and what made you ultimately decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint? Kevin Sellon [00:06:57]: Well, if I was gonna get into a graduate school, I wanted it to be one that was noted as one of the best, if not the best. So, of course, being from Michigan, I know I saw that the University of Michigan, University of Michigan Flint were top, you know, with some of the top, schools when it came to public administration. So I decided, well, I'll send my application to the U of M Flint, and I probably won't get accepted just being the person that I am. And so I my backup plan was Grand Valley State. So those were the two schools that I was kinda looking at. Well, to my surprise, as I was getting my packet prepared for Grand Valley State, I got my acceptance to U of M Flint. And, to be honest with you, that the elation I was able to feel and, I guess, shock because, again, I had that negative kind of that I wasn't smart enough. I didn't think I was smart enough to attend the University of Michigan, but they believed in me. Kevin Sellon [00:07:54]: So that was my decision. And to be able to get the first school for graduate school to accept you, to me, is just like, it was a present. It's like a great Christmas present that I could have gotten that I was able to realize the light at the end of the tunnel for my dream. You know, I actually coming true of having that master's degree and then also finding another purpose after the military where I can still continue to help people. That's, I think, the main thing, and working for a nonprofit was probably the best thing for me to do. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:25]: So you you found the program that you wanted to attend. You decided to go to the University of Michigan Flint. And as you transition into graduate school, this is a transition. And it had been a number of years since you had done your associates work, your bachelor's work, you went, you worked, you had your career in the military, you did some other work outside of that as well. And so there's, there was this education gap, right? You made this, you had to kind of get back into the mindset of being a student, as well as being able to be an employee at the same time and balancing family and work and school and all of those things. So talk to me about as you made that transition into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the journey that you've been on in graduate school so far? Kevin Sellon [00:09:21]: Well, to prepare for it, it was really me doing a little bit a little bit additional reading and whatnot on what I could find about the public administration. And then, of course, trying to decide what I wanted to my focus to be. And my focus as a public administrator would be, like, social and public policy. That was my deciding factor that I wanted to be a part of, just basically based off of what the ADA said. So I did a little bit of research there. I had a lot of back and forth with Helen Budd, who is the veterans representative at the Flint. And she what I found out, actually, got her degree from there, her MPA from the University of Michigan Flint as well. So to have her answer questions that I had from the nontraditional student that I believe I was coming in as a little older than some of them that were there, and she helped kinda settle my nerves when it came to that because she also had the same feelings when she went into grad school because she had a short period of time between her bachelor's and her master's as well. Kevin Sellon [00:10:24]: And then, I decided to sign up for the mentee program to be assigned a mentor who had already been through, who could have been graduated already just to kind of because initially, again, like I said, I hadn't quite decided to work in the disability field, advocacy field. So, you know, just to find out where I should start looking for experience because that was the one thing that I felt might slow down my next career is I was getting the education, but how was I gonna get the experience? And that does lead to a lot some issues when it comes to employment. So I started volunteering around the community here in West Michigan and eventually turned into an internship at Disability Advocates, and then I get was hired full time. So and then to keep motivated through graduate school, for me, the motivating factor was having that support of my family and then being able to utilize what I was learning in the classes at my job because I started seeing the correlation between the two, how I could speak to the director and understand the finances that happen when it comes to a nonprofit or how to properly utilize research that I'm doing for the for the organization and how to address people with issues and also kinda snapping into that professional realm that I'm in now, problem solving and things like that. So Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:45]: so you're currently going through the program, you see that light at the end of the tunnel. And you're utilizing what you're learning in the program in this new career that you're in in this full time position as a disability advocate working for disability advocates in West Michigan. Talk to me about how you feel that the graduate degree has helped you, has prepared you for what you do on a daily basis. Kevin Sellon [00:12:11]: The help that I received pursuing my degree has been almost immeasurable, to be honest with you. I mean, the way that I I'm able to look at even, say, the news. You know, the news can be pretty tumultuous at times and frustrating sometimes when you're watching news and world events and things like that. The ability to look at it though from public administrator standpoint and some things I can understand. You know, I know it was frustrating before, but now it's kinda like decoding, say, for instance, what the government is doing altogether. And using it here, it's actually benefited me in the fact that, again, I'm able to look at have a holistic view of somebody's problems that when I bring it up to the organization, they decided, since I am a veteran, that they were gonna try to take on a new program and which was to also assist with veterans. So we are starting up I'm gonna be the first veteran direct care counselor, options counselor that we're gonna have here at disability advocates because my director has the confidence just in conversation that we've had since starting here, and he sees the growth also and what I'm able to articulate. And so they were like, here's this program. Kevin Sellon [00:13:26]: We're gonna give it to you. And, basically, what that program does is I sit down with a veteran, and they're given a budget from the VA. And it allows them to stay in their homes instead of being moved to a veteran's home or nursing home of some sort. So it allows them to decide their care, who their caregivers are gonna be, and then they become an employer. And they employ the person that that is gonna take care of them. It's called the veteran directed care, and I couldn't be more proud to even further my dream to help society, but also including the veteran that are part of that, especially them, and kinda get back to where I came from. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:07]: Well, congratulations on that. That's so exciting. And I look forward to hearing what happens next as that moves forward and as you continue to hone that and to to engage with veterans in West Michigan and beyond. Now, as you think about the graduate education that you've gone through thus far and you're going through currently, and you look back at the time that you've been in this and been working through it, and you think back to that, the transitions as well as the journey itself, What are some tips that you might offer other students, other people, whether they're thinking about a graduate degree in public administration or some other degree? What are some tips that you might want to offer them that would help them find success sooner? Kevin Sellon [00:14:54]: The number one thing that I I personally had to learn also is taking time for yourself and just taking that step away even though because graduate school can seem I don't wanna say overwhelming because if you have your time scheduled out, time management is down. You just kinda take a step away and be with those that are important to you. And that was my main thing is as much as I kept wanting to read because, again, I wanna be a part of the discussions that each of the classes held, and I wanna contribute to class time and whatnot. So I would read, but then I also had to remember that while the sun's out or not, but it's time to take the dog for a walk....
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/35401750
info_outline
From Strength Coach to Physical Therapist: Amber Schlemmer's Graduate School Experience
05/05/2025
From Strength Coach to Physical Therapist: Amber Schlemmer's Graduate School Experience
Unlocking Success in Graduate School and Beyond Graduate school is often described as a journey filled with challenges, growth, and triumphs. For , a physical therapist and alumna of the , her path to success was anything but traditional. In a conversation with , Dr. Schlemmer shared insights into her decision to pursue graduate school, the obstacles she overcame, and the critical lessons she learned. Finding the Right Path Unlike many graduate students, Dr. Schlemmer didn’t immediately decide to pursue further education following her undergraduate degree at Michigan State University. A few years into her career as a personal trainer and strength coach, she realized that her scope of practice was limited when working with patients recovering from multi-trauma injuries. This sparked her interest in physical therapy, and through careful self-reflection, she determined this field aligned with her passion for understanding human capacity and rehabilitation. For prospective graduate students, her story underscores the importance of embracing life experiences and listening to your professional instincts when deciding to further your education. Overcoming the Nontraditional Student Challenge Dr. Schlemmer’s decision to attend the University of Michigan Flint was influenced by her role as a nontraditional student. With a young family and deep roots in her community, relocating for a graduate program was not an option. She praised the proximity and high-quality faculty at U of M Flint, calling her program a “necessity” that ultimately became one of her biggest blessings. For students in similar scenarios, proximity, supportive faculty, and realistic planning can be key in managing academics and personal responsibilities. Lessons to Thrive in Graduate Programs Graduate school demands a significant adjustment, requiring new habits and dedication. To succeed, Dr. Schlemmer emphasized effective study techniques and embracing the grueling pace of her courses. Her late-night study sessions at a 24-hour McDonald’s highlight the importance of resilience and time management. Dr. Schlemmer believes that excelling in graduate school goes beyond academics—it’s about forming critical thinking skills and learning to apply principles flexibly. The Value of Practical Experience Dr. Schlemmer credited her clinical rotations for shaping her into the physical therapist she is today. Through real-world challenges and mentorship, she emerged with newfound confidence in critical thinking and decision-making within the profession. For future students, Dr. Schlemmer encouraged taking advantage of internships to explore diverse perspectives that enrich long-term career growth. Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students Dr. Schlemmer offered sage advice: do thorough research before applying to programs, maintain a well-rounded perspective, and remain adaptable as professional interests evolve. Graduate school may feel overwhelming at its peak, but she reassures students that the light at the end of the tunnel is worth the hard work. A Worthwhile Journey As Dr. Christopher Lewis aptly described, graduate school is “a blip” in the grand timeline of one’s life, but it is a transformational journey that prepares students for lifelong success. Dr. Schlemmer’s story stands as a testament to resilience, adaptability, and the rewards that come with pursuing your passions. For aspiring graduate students, her journey serves as inspiration to embrace both the challenges and possibilities that lie ahead. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to sit down and talk to you, work with you as we work through this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. No matter if you are just starting to think about maybe I want to do this graduate school thing or you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do to prepare yourself to be successful in that journey, no matter where you are in that journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: So that's why every week I love being able to have these conversations with you, to sit down with you, to talk with you, and to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have been able to go through graduate school themselves and have found success in that journey for themselves. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor. Amber Schlemmer is with us today. And, Amber is a graduate of the doctorate of physical therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did she ended up doing her undergraduate degree at Michigan State University. And then, as I said, got a clinical doctorate at the University of Michigan Flint. We'll talk about that here in just a moment. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: But I'm really excited to have her here and to have her share some of her experiences with you. Amber, thanks so much for being here today. Thank Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:01:37]: you for having me, Christopher. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here. And first and foremost, one of the things that I love being able to do is turning the clock back in time. I have the power. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:01:50]: I'd love to do that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Yes. So So we're gonna go back in time. And I said that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University. And at some point during that time that you were there, you made a decision, you made a decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to get another degree. You wanted to go to graduate school. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school? Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:02:14]: So, actually, funny story. It was not during my time at Michigan State that I decided to go to graduate school. So, as a matter of fact, as I was going through my program at, Michigan State, I was that I was a a a strength and conditioning coach for, Olympic sports at Michigan State. And so I absolutely loved what I did. I had full intentions of becoming either a a strength coach or remaining a personal trainer like I was because I absolutely love the so passionate about the the human capacity and what I saw those athletes do and grow into. And so I was very set that graduate school wasn't for me, and I was going to continue along the path that I set out with my undergraduate degree. And so it wasn't until about three or four years after I graduated actually when I was working as a personal trainer and I started to take on some more multi trauma patients, some auto accident patients who had had sustained an automobile accident and had some kind of ongoing physical impairments. And so I quickly realized that my scope of practice was kind of being exceeded, and there's a lot more to know out there than, you know, what I was giving these patients at the time. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:03:11]: And so that's kind of what started the gears turning for me a little bit about what else is out there. Maybe I do wanna consider doing something else, and I dabbled with PA and pharmacy and decided ultimately that, physical therapy was the most logical continuation of what I was doing. And it wasn't too far away from being able to experience that, the potential in the human capacity. And so that's kind of where I set out when I started to realize that there was a lot more to know than what I knew, and I wasn't happy with what I knew. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Now as you started to realize that and you started to figure out that there was more that you wanted to know, you decided that you wanted to apply to become a physical therapist, to be going into a clinical doctorate program in physical therapy. And there's a number of different programs throughout the state of Michigan and beyond that you could have selected from. And you ultimately did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Bring me back to that point of that search process for yourself, that application process for yourself. What made you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was where you wanted to attend? Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:04:15]: So I have a little bit of a different backstory. I was what you might consider a nontraditional student. So at this time, I had just had my son, who was my second. And so as I was deciding to go back to grad school because I hadn't planned on it previously, there's a couple of prerequisites that I needed. And so I I took them at U of M Flint, and I loved the campus. I loved the, you know, the classes. The professors were great there. And so you're right. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:04:37]: The DPT programs in in Michigan and really across the nation are pretty competitive. And so the law of averages states that you should apply to multiples, and I'd say upwards of, like, five to 10. Well, because I was this nontraditional student, proximity was very important to me. I had my home, my family, and unfortunately, we were not able to uproot ourselves and move to any of these programs across the state or across the nation. And so I put all of my eggs in the U of M Flint basket because I really appreciated the school, obviously, the location. I'm from a small town near Flint, called Flushing. And so, it's a fifteen, twenty minute drive for me. Right? And so as I started to apply to the different programs, I will say that I put my name in in the hat for at least two others just to kind of get my feet wet and understand what, you know, different programs are looking for, but I knew for sure that I wouldn't be able to, you know, accept those acceptances. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:05:25]: And so, U of M Flint was the the place for me, and I am so grateful. I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason, because I don't know if you know the statistics, but there's quite a few humans that don't get in the first time when they apply for for PT school. Right? And so I'm very fortunate to say that I was able to be accepted the first round and the stars had aligned, and I was able to begin the program. And so for me, it was unfortunately not so much a a choice as a a necessity, but, boy, did it work out for me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: So as you go into a new educational environment for you, you had been out of school for a little bit of time. Now you're coming back into school. So there is a transition. There's a transition into graduate school. And then as you go along and through that graduate program, there are small transitions when you're going from year one to year two to year three and the expectations a little bit different as you go from term to term and what you're being expected to be able to do, to be able to prove to your faculty members to show that mastery within the subject area. So talk to me about, and you did find success in all of those different transitions. You ended up graduating, you got your degree, you've become a physical therapist. You've been out in the field for a number of years now. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:34]: So as you think back to those transitions that you went through, what did you have to do as you were transitioning into the program to find success? And what did you have to do as you were going through the entirety of the program to maintain that success within graduate school. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:06:51]: I will say I'm one of those fortunate humans who in high school I don't tell my 17 year old daughter this place. Through high school, I was never really one of those ones that needed to study a whole lot. School and academics kind of came naturally to me. I'm very fortunate to be able to say that, and I do realize even my time at Michigan State, it laid the foundation and the the habit forming, the habit development, in terms of, like, studying and, you know, preparedness. But boy, does it not hold a candle to graduate school and the and particularly the DBT program. So transitioning into the program was really not all that difficult. I was taking undergraduate level prerequisite courses. And so to me, that was just kind of par for the course. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:07:25]: I was used to that. I say all the time that I would be a forever student if there were any money in it. If I could go to school for the rest of my life, I would love that. But getting you know, once I was in the program, I will say that it it was kind of a good dose of reality, really, if I'm being honest, because DPT programs tend to front load some of their academics and, you know, front load some of their what turned out to be some of their tougher courses, your anatomy or physiology or kinesiology, some of your your higher, more advanced topics. And I would like to say, number one, to set the stage for the rest of your, you know, academic career, but also to kind of weave those friends out that maybe aren't as strong in those those areas because that's exactly what we do, you know, a % of our time as physical therapists. And so that first semester was definitely a little bit of a culture shock for me. I think I had stacks and stacks of note cards because this was before a computer generated all of these lovely study guides and and study aids and whatnot. So I handwrote all of my note cards. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:08:18]: I was studying more than I ever had in the past, obviously, but, yeah, this came with a little bit of a a nontraditional path for me. So I would get home, you know, make the kids dinner, go through our bedtime routine, get them to bed. And then in Flushing, the only thing that's open twenty four hours is a local McDonald's. And so I would go and have a a cup of decaf coffee and stay there till two or 03:00 in the morning. And boy, do you get to see some pretty interesting things at that time while you're back there studying. And so I think the biggest, transition for me really was just kind of the meat and potatoes of the the course load, especially in those first couple semesters. But once you have that foundation built, it makes for great success down the road in the program because that's where the, you know, the courses start to become a little bit more niche and dedicated towards, you know, pathways that you intend to take. So they're just a lot more focused, I guess, and less advanced concepts, more critical thinking, if you will. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:09:07]: And and if I'm being honest, that's where I really appreciate my time at U of M Flint because I feel like they made really great clinicians out of us, giving us that ability to critically think and kind of think outside the box a little bit, not just follow the textbook, not just I say all the time in my my clinic that patients and their their impairments don't often read the textbook. Meaning, it's not like a list of impairments or a list of conditions. Right? That's you know, we have comorbidities that play a role and lifestyle behaviors that play a role in how patients present. And so it was a great skill to have to be able to think outside the box a little bit more, and I can certainly thank my professors for that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:39]: You know, as you think back to graduate school, there are things that you learn along the way that prepare you for the work that you do. And you're in a career area that is kind of lockstep in regard to you're studying to be a physical therapist, you become a physical therapist and you learn in the program, leads you to being able to do what you're doing. But there's also things that you learn within a program that may not be the tangible things that you're doing on a daily basis. So as you think back to your graduate school experience and you think about the work that you're doing now on a day to day basis, how did that graduate degree prepare you for the next steps? And were there any things that you had to learn beyond graduate school that you did not learn that you wish you had learned in graduate school? Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:10:21]: So I will say that the especially the U of M Flint DPT program trained me very well to be a well rounded clinician. Right? And this is obviously one of those professions that you have to have a license, you have to have a degree in that profession in order to practice. And so they they certainly did their job in terms of curriculum, making sure that students were prepared before they went out in their clinical, internships, the rotations. I will say that I think outside of the nuts and bolts that were learned in the program itself, the three ten week clinical rotations that we did, I think were absolutely integral. And for me specifically, I had one clinical instructor for my last rotation who really challenged me. And I will say, I went home after almost every single day of this clinical rotation just a level of exhaustion that you can't imagine. Right? There's a different level of physical and and mental exhaustion. This was literally everything. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:11:12]: And so I had never really experienced that, but it was because she was really challenging me and making me critically think about why we're choosing every single exercise and what that's gonna do for this patient and why it's so important for this patient. Because if we get two hours a week with this patient, which is more than most medical professions can tell, we have a really great opportunity to make a pretty big impact on their lives and certainly on their pain or injury status. So I'm really appreciative of not only the faculty, but those humans that continue to host students and teach the next generation of physical therapists. We we actually currently, have two in our clinic right now at primary prevention, and so hopefully, they're getting the best experience as well. So I will say the clinical rotations were great. Throughout the program, I will say that I knew I wanted to open my own practice. I knew that, you know, I didn't wanna work for one of the bigger companies that, you know, productivity is the standard and we're, you know, looking for, you know, how many patients we can see an hour and not the outcomes or how much better we can make that patient. And I will say, disclaimer, not every single clinic is like that, but we've had our experiences. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:12:11]: Right? So throughout the program this was in our last year of the program. The curriculum since changed a little bit since I've been there, but we had to take a management class, so business management class. Throughout that class, we had to create a business plan. We had to do a full proforma. We had to basically create a clinic. And so I looked at my group who no one else had intentions of opening their own clinic. And I looked at my group and I said, do you guys think it's okay if we do this for, like, Flushing, Michigan area for my clinic? I'll give you all the information. And so we can sit down and create this. Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:12:38]: To me, it's much more tangible than a hypothetical clinic that we're about to create. Right? And so a little bit of strategy there in terms of my classmates help me write my business plan. Right? But ultimately, learning more about what it means to be a private practice owner and how that differs from being your clinical PT, basically. I will say I'm very much a PT first, very much a businesswoman second, but I'm learning quite a...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/35401500
info_outline
Inclusive Excellence in Higher Education: A Pathway to Equity and Belonging
04/28/2025
Inclusive Excellence in Higher Education: A Pathway to Equity and Belonging
Inclusive excellence is redefining the landscape of higher education, emphasizing the intentional and purposeful work that fosters diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in every corner of academia. , in conversation with , brings to light the multifaceted aspects of inclusive excellence (IE) and its transformative potential on campuses. Here’s a deeper dive into the key takeaways from their enlightening discussion. Defining Inclusive Excellence: The Foundation of Inclusion Dr. Tookes articulated IE as “consistent efforts to advance diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in post-secondary education.” Diversity captures the richness in human differences, equity ensures resources are tailored to individual needs, inclusion fosters empowerment and acceptance, and belonging extends inclusion to form deep, authentic connections. Together, these components create a cohesive and supportive environment in higher education. IE is more than just a concept. It is the seam that ties the entire fabric of a collegiate institution together. Much like a well-constructed garment that fits impeccably, an inclusive campus environment makes every student feel seen, valued, and heard. IE in Action: Where Inclusion Finds its Voice on Campus Dr. Tookes highlighted the presence of IE in three fundamental areas—policies, practices, and pedagogy. Policies such as anti-discrimination and accommodations for students with disabilities are vital for equitable access. Practices, ranging from recruitment and retention efforts to resource allocation, ensure inclusivity in all aspects of student life. Inclusive pedagogy emphasizes open, diverse teaching methods that allow every student’s voice to be acknowledged. Dr. Tookes also revealed surprising areas where IE impacts students directly. From equitable dining options that respect cultural dietary needs to events tailored for diverse backgrounds and schedules, IE extends far beyond the classroom. The Call to Action: How Students Can Practice and Promote IE Students, too, play a pivotal role in championing IE. Dr. Tookes encouraged graduate students to practice intrapersonal reflection, expand their perspectives, and maintain cultural dialogues that celebrate diversity. Promoting IE involves supporting inclusive policies, getting involved in community programs, and actively engaging peers in meaningful conversations. A Collective Responsibility for an Inclusive Future Inclusive excellence is a shared journey between educators, students, and administrators, fostering a culture where every individual thrives. Dr. Tookes’ compelling insights challenge us all to embrace inclusion with open minds and committed hearts to bridge gaps and build transformative academic experiences for everyone. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining us as we continue with our Graduate Student Success Series. I'm really excited to have you here today because every time that we come together, there are opportunities for us to learn and to be better in the journey that we are on as students, as graduate students, and the learning that we are hoping to be able to pull out of this experience. And graduate school can definitely challenge you and in many ways can be challenging in many ways for you, can be stressful. There's a lot of balance issues. There's more. And today, we're gonna be talking about something brand new that we haven't talked about before. We're talking talking about inclusive education, and this is a framework that holds all members of the higher education community accountable for ensuring that academic success is possible for every student. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:05]: So this is really important, and that's why I'm so excited that you're listening today. You're watching today and you're here to be a part of this because we have Doctor. Juanita Tookes with us today. And, Doctor. Tookes is our CAPS assistant director. And we've had her on before, but this is a brand new topic. I'm really excited to be able to have her here to talk to you and to learn from her today. Doctor. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]: Hooks, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:31]: I'm just happy to be a guest. I am so excited, to be here. I'm always excited to talk to grad students. It's an experience that I will never forget. So I hope just for a little while, you'll, indulge me by just listening to me because hopefully you can take at least one thing away from what what I say today. So today we're gonna be talking about inclusive excellence. And just like what doctor Lewis said, this is a brand new topic, that challenged me to do some thinking. I presented on several different types of things multiple times before, but inclusive excellence is brand new. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:05]: So I was really happy to delve in, and create this presentation for you. Okay. So this is how things are gonna flow. First, we're going to define inclusive excellence. I'm going to refer to that as IE. And then we're also gonna talk about its role and impact. After that, we're gonna play a little bit of I spy to see where does IE show up on campus. What does that look like? Following that, we're gonna talk about how to practice and promote IE, and then we're gonna wrap up. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:37]: Then if there's any questions or comments, I'll be more than happy to address those. And if there are none, then I will give you my best wishes, and and final thoughts. Alright. So is it me or yeah. So this is me in grad school, and, this is about probably about four or five years ago. And as a doctoral student, I went to Oakland University. As a doctoral student, I distinctly remember experiences where I was not given the same opportunities for professional development, and success as my peers. I remember a specific experience where I stepped into my instructional theory class. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:24]: I was already burned out. This is probably about two and a half, two I I believe my second year, in the program around that time. And I was already burned out from the previous semesters. But I was excited because I was learning how to teach. When I was in my doc program, I knew that I was gonna be a full time university professor. That's the track that I was on. And so, even though I was really, really tired, I was really excited about this class because I wanted to teach. So learning how to teach, I thought, was very exciting. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:58]: So according to my program guidelines, this course was a prerequisite. It was a required prerequisite for teaching any course, which I would later have to do as a grad student anyway as a part of my internship. So imagine how I felt when I found out that, in my small cohort of four people where I was one of two students of color and the only black woman, I noticed that information about advancement was given to my peers who are white. But for students of color like me, it felt like an obstacle course to get that same information. This was very frustrating. It was very annoying because it seemed as though information that was easily given to others, I had to work to get. And it made me feel like, why am I not privy to the same information in the same way? Why why do I have to work harder to get, you know, that information? And there was multiple experiences of this, you know, for me throughout my grad school experience. And it embedded in me this message that I will always have to work, quote, unquote, 10 times harder to achieve the same level of recognition, respect, acknowledgement, and advancement, not just in college, but in life. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:24]: I know that as a black woman in my community, when we say 10 times harder, what that means is that you'll never have you're never gonna have the same start point. Like, you're always gonna be behind, and you're gonna have to hustle, and you're gonna have to grind, and you're gonna have to hurry so that you can catch up with everyone else, you know, to get, you know, the same types of resources, experiences, treatments, things like that. So, the point of this story, as far as my own personal narrative, is that inclusive excellence is more than just a concept. I think students may hear this phrase or this term about inclusive excellence, but I don't think they understand how that impacts them. IE, is intentional and purposeful work that involves consistent efforts to advance diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging, in post secondary education. Understanding each of these aspects of inclusive excellence is key in understanding your student experience. So what I'm really excited about doing today is helping you understand how inclusive excellence impacts you as a student. As a higher education professional, I've observed that when IE is discussed, college students are not as present and representative as, they're not as present and representative in those conversations as they should be. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:47]: And this is why students feel as though IE doesn't is not associated with them because they're not present in the conversation enough. And so I hope that with this webinar, this informal invitation, to invite you to a conversation about inclusive excellence will help you to understand just how important it is as a factor that helps to shape and molds your overall student experience. So let's talk about some major keys when we talk about IE. So we have diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. I know we've all heard these terms before, but I want you to think about these terms in relation to inclusive excellence. Right? So just some brief definitions here. Diversity is the, countless dimensions of human difference, right, with a broader view towards different perspectives. We also have equity, eliminating barriers that prevent equivalent access or full participation of all individuals. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:48]: We also have inclusion, conditions where all individuals feel accepted, safe, empowered, and affirmed. Then we have belonging, which I look at as an extension of inclusion as well. The emotional state where individuals feel a true sense of group connection as their authentic selves. And notice that in between these circles are plus signs. Right? So diversity plus equity plus inclusion plus belonging. Like, these are major keys that all factor into inclusive excellence. So I thought it was very important because I know when I first got introduced to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, I always got equity and equality. It's not that I got them mixed up. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:38]: I thought that that that they were the same and they're actually not. So I wanted to take a second to make sure that we understand the difference between equality and equity. So when it comes to equality, equality is this idea that everyone is given the same resources and opportunities to thrive. Everyone gets equal treatment regardless of their circumstances. Everybody gets the same. Right? Regardless of what background you have, everyone gets the same thing. When we talk about equity and how that's different than equality, equity recognizes that individuals do have different backgrounds. Right? They have different backgrounds. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:20]: They have different needs. And because of this difference, the way that resources are allocated, they're based off of those needs so that whatever that is as far as the person's unique needs are, they have an opportunity to receive resources that can help them be successful. So, again, remember, equality is everybody gets the same thing no matter what your needs are. With equity, it recognizes that because people have different needs and may require different kinds of things in order to be successful, those things are going to be provided based off of what your unique needs are. So some people in groups face more hardships than others, different circumstances that make things more challenging, like goal achievement even with very hard work and perseverance. So equity attempts to identify the imbalances and find find ways to restore fairness and justice. So I don't know how familiar everyone is, but there, this is a very common image to show the differences between equality and equity. And I'm a visual learner. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:26]: So a good picture always helps me as far as, having things really deeply resonate. So if we look on the left, we'll see a picture of equality. Right? So remember, equality is everybody gets the same thing no matter what your needs are. You can see that these people are at different heights. You know, they're different weights. You have people standing behind the fence. They all have the same box. They all have one box. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:50]: It doesn't matter that you're taller than me. It doesn't matter that you can see further than I can. It doesn't matter about any of those things. We all get the same box that's at the same height, and that's that. Now notice that the smaller person can't see over the fence at all. So even though I have the same box as you and you have the same box as the next person, I can't see anything. The person who's the tallest can see everything. The person in the middle can see some things. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:16]: So when we talk about success, how successful can we actually be if if we're just treated like we all have the same kinds of needs? That's the beauty in differences. There is a beauty in difference. You know? It's nothing to be ashamed about if you need resources or aid or help because the goal is for you to be successful. So if you look at the image on the right, we have boxes, but we can see that everybody may not need a box. Depending on what their unique needs are, they may not need a box. They might need more boxes. They may need less boxes. But at the end of at the end of this, we can see that they all can see over the fence. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:54]: They're all at, you know, the same level in order to see, even though in order to see over the fence, they might need different or more resources. So let's talk about the role and impact of inclusive excellence. So every garment because I, you know, I love clothes. So that's where this example is coming from. But every garment has a seam, right? As you can see in the pair of blue jeans right there, a seam is very, very important to a garment because it joins and holds different parts of that garment together. Not only does the seam join and hold, but it also contributes to the overall fit and the design of the garment. Without a seam, everything falls apart. You can't wear not one piece of clothing without a seam. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:39]: So just like a well constructed garment, I want you to think of IE as the seam that joins and holds together every part of a collegiate institution. I want you to think of your educational environment as the design and your student experience as the fit. And now I want you to think and this is not just because I went on, a shopping spree just the other day and everything was well in the world and everything fit right. But I really want you to think about how you feel when you try something on and it fits just the way that you want it. It looks great. It feels great. A great fit as far as a garment. It increases your confidence and increases your satisfaction with yourself and the garment that you're purchasing. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:24]: It, increases your comfort and it gives you a sense of presence wherever you go, because you know, when you step outside in this outfit, you are going to be seen. Okay. And so what I want you to think of as far as, like, your student experience is I want you to look at your student experience as a good fit. That's what we want here at U of M Flint. We want students to come to our environment, come to this collegiate design, you know, of an educational space, and we want you to feel confident. We want you to feel satisfied and comfortable being here, and we want you to feel visible. We want you to feel seen. We want you walking around just like this lady who is very happy with her shirt and her pants. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:09]: Like, being a U of M Flint student, we want you to walk around knowing that this is a very, very good fit for you. Alright. So let's play just a little bit of I spy with my little eye. Okay? Where does IE show up on campus? Now the reason why I think this is very, very important is because when it comes down to inclusive excellence, again, I think this is a term that students might be familiar with, but I'm even more sure that students probably are not familiar with it. And if they are familiar with the term, I don't think students are as familiar as to how IE shows up in their everyday student lives because it's all around us. Inclusive excellence is like air. Like, even though you may not be able to see it, it is everywhere and it can impact just how you experience an environment. So let's start with the three P's. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:05]: Okay. The three P's are places where people know inclusive excellence can show up or may not show up. But here at U of M Flint, it definitely does show up. So policies, inclusive, inclusive policies ensure that all students have equitable access to resources, student support services and opportunities while addressing barriers related to race, ethnicity, gender, disability, SES, and other factors. Some examples of different policies, that kind of, are inclusive of everyone and what their needs might be. Our policies, as far as anti discrimination policies and also policies centered on accommodations for students with disabilities. These are perfect. Now again, remember what I'm trying to do is make something so big and foreign, something very close and relatable to you. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:02]: Accommodations is something that I have worked with before, as a higher education professional. And there's policies around accommodations because we wanna make sure that students have what they need to be successful. You know? And so that's why I'm really happy, and and so happy to, have worked so closely with the DAS office, because the disability and accessibility support services office to make sure that if students need help being successful in their classes, they have a place to go to get them what they need to be successful. Let's talk about practices. Now, when I mentioned policies, I want you to think of words. Words because that's really what policies are. They're words and manuals and things like that. Practices are those words in action. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:50]: Right? So practices are the activities, events, and the initiatives that help shape student life, academic culture, and community. So examples, because I love a good example. Okay. So like recruitment and retention efforts. I really hope that this is resonating with you as far as how inclusive excellence impacts and involves you. I want you to remember how you found out about U of M Flint through recruitment, or efforts to make sure that you stay here and that you're happy here. Student orientation. You don't think IE is all up and through there because it definitely is. Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:32]: Also sustainability efforts. You know, how does the campus, work hard to make sure that, you know, things that are relative to the earth are preserved and that we know about this information, as well as resource allocation, like scholarships, for example. All of this has I e interwoven into the fabric of these different practices and policies. Now let's talk about pedagogy, which is the third P. So...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/35400870
info_outline
Navigating Graduate School Success: Insights from Dr. Zachariah Mathew's Journey
04/21/2025
Navigating Graduate School Success: Insights from Dr. Zachariah Mathew's Journey
Graduate education is a transformative experience, one that goes far beyond mere academics. In the latest episode of Victors on Grad School, , Senior International Officer and Director of the at the University of Michigan Flint, sat down with to unravel his unique educational and professional journey. From his roots in India to accomplishing multiple advanced degrees in the United States, Dr. Mathew's story exemplified the essence of perseverance, mentorship, and making meaningful connections. This blog distills his advice and experiences into actionable insights that prospective graduate students can take to heart. Discovering Graduate Education as a Journey Dr. Mathew’s journey exemplifies how graduate education is not a one-size-fits-all experience. Reflecting on his initial career as a physical education teacher in India, he admitted going in “thinking I knew it all.” However, through mentors like his school principal, he discovered the value of continuous learning and how education is a voyage enriched by companions. Understanding that he "did not know enough to teach" and that more formal education would help him better serve his students, Dr. Mathew pursued graduate studies—eventually crossing continents to the United States. The Importance of Finding the Right Fit Choosing the right graduate program isn’t just about prestige. Dr. Mathew discussed how he meticulously researched and prioritized faculty expertise, affordability, and alignment with his passions during his transition from India to South Dakota State University. This phase taught him that graduate school decisions depend on the information available at the time—a reminder that the “right” choice always involves reflection on personal goals and circumstances. Leveraging Mentorship for Growth A resounding theme of Dr. Mathew’s interview was the transformative power of mentorship. From advisers to administrators, mentors played a pivotal role in helping him synthesize his skills and switch career paths. For aspiring graduate students, seeking guidance from mentors—faculty members or even campus staff—can be immensely impactful. Final Thoughts: Graduate School as a Laboratory of Growth Dr. Mathew emphasized that “graduate education is what you make of it.” Perspective-building, experiential learning, and finding ways to apply classroom knowledge to the real world define success. Graduate school should be seen not only as a means to a degree but as a platform to become uniquely capable of solving problems and thriving in a globalized world. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You've made a decision that you're starting to think about graduate school. Maybe you've already applied and you've gotten accepted. Maybe you are in graduate school and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: No matter where you are, there is a journey that you go through when you go to graduate school, and there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share some of those experiences with you to help you on that journey that you're on. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor. Zacharia Matthew is with us today. And today we're going to be talking about his own journey from India to The United States. Doctor. Matthew is the senior international officer and director of the Center for Global Engagement at the University of Michigan Flint, and I'm really excited to have him here with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]: Doctor. Matthew, thanks so much for being here. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:01:21]: Doctor. Liz, it's truly an honor. I really love the way you started. It indeed is a journey. I know a journey where you're not alone and you find your companion who you can part the journey along. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work in India and you studied to be a educator and a teacher and ended up getting that degree. But at some point, at some point, either during that time and your undergraduate work and that time in the early years, when you were a physical education teacher, you made a decision. You made a big decision. You made a decision to go on with your education, to go to graduate school. And not only did you decide to go to graduate school, but you decided to come to The United States to go to graduate school. So I want to go back to that point. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: Bring me back to that point where you made that decision and what made you decide that you wanted to go further and go on and get that graduate degree? Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:02:19]: I was 19. I was not even 20 when I had my first job as a physical education teacher at an international school. So I went in with this mindset at the age of 20 thinking I knew it all and how far away or far out I was in my belief that so I started off as a physical education teacher at an international school, called Malayadity International School. It's in Bangalore, India. And again, as you mentioned in the beginning, education is a journey. Every day you learn, and you need to find companions. You need to find the right people who can be part of that journey. First of all, my family was always supportive. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:02:58]: But at my institution, the principal of that school, Mrs. Anne Wario, she also started off as a physical education teacher in England. So she had a very different take for this profession of physical education. In India at that time, I'm talking about the early nineties, physical education was nothing but training. But Mrs. Warrior really brought me in to think about this as an integral part of education. Over the next six, seven years, I had a lot of opportunity to learn more through different short term courses, programs from Oxford Brookes. And I realized that there was a lot that I did not know. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:03:38]: And also I realized that I was able to be along with teachers who had got their degrees from institution, like from Ivy Leagues and be part of a conversation. So first of all, that what that led me to believe is that I was also capable of having conversations, informed conversations with professionals who had terminal degrees from institutions abroad. So that made me also think so one was I realized that I did not know enough to be able to teach. And second, I realized interacting with, as we said, you know, meeting the people all throughout the journey, I realized that I had so much to learn. And at that time, physical education was not a field of study in India. It was not a major field at all. So when I decided to pursue my higher education, I looked within the country. I did my PG diploma from India as well. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:04:29]: I realized that that was not enough for me to, one, have a career. Number two, provide proper education for the students whom I serve. That's when I really started looking to The US, UK, and Australia. And finally, I chose to do my master's in, exercise physiology in The United States. And then later, I realized that that was not where my heart and pulse was. I was more interested in the management, and that is where my pulse was. And later completed my master's in, sports management from Indiana State University. So this journey from being a teacher to finally coming to The United States took about seven years. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:05:05]: That is the first leg of my journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]: Talk to me about the search because every person goes through that process. And you said you could have gone to Ivy League. You could have looked at a lot of different universities to try to figure out where you wanted to go to get that degree in physiology and in sports management for your master's degree that you were going to be getting here in The United States. You ended up deciding to attend Indiana State University, but every student goes through that search process. You talked about you were looking at The UK and Australia and The US, and you're trying to figure out the right fit for you. But talk to me about what you had to do to be able to identify the right program, but also the right university for you to find that right fit. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:05:50]: That too was a journey that almost took me two years to decide where I really want to go. So one thing that you need to recognize is that you do not know what you do not know. You make decisions based on the information that you have at that point of time. Later, you may decide later, when you have more information, you may decide that that is not. So you may you need to make decisions that is right for you at that time. So when I decided to pursue my master's in excess physiology at South Dakota State University, I was looking for an quality and affordable graduate education that aligned with my interest area as well. So at that point, especially due from 1996 to February, I was very much into climbing and hiking up on the Himalayas and high altitude. I was very much interested in high altitude training. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:06:36]: So within while I was searching for the right graduate program, I found adviser or a faculty at South Dakota State University whose research was on high altitude training. So that was a key aspect at that time for me to determine which university to go to. So while I had a lot of push factors from India, which is like they do not India did not have this kind of a training at that point. The pull factors I mean, I could have gone to as you said, I could have gone to many, many places, but there were key aspects. One was affordability. Number two, quality of program. Number three, was there a person who could guide me who could guide me in my area of interest. So I started that program but it was once I was in the program and I learned more about what it really is because, again, I came from a place where excess physiology and physical education was it was not a science. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:07:33]: It was yet evolving. I when I realized that I had no passion dealing with blood and punched muscles, I realized my seven years of experience or eight years of experience as a physical education teacher, a manager, and an administrator was my real area. So then I really looked for somebody or an institution again that was affordable at quality education, but then this time, you can't make too many mistakes. So this time, what I did was I did a deeper research and found a faculty who was also an author, reached out to him, had a almost an hour and a half hours of conversation, and then decided that my seven years of experience is something that I wanted to capitalize on and decided to do my master's in sports management at Indiana State University. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: Now along the way, you also made a decision that after you got that master's degree and you started working for Indiana State University, You decided to continue that education, and you continued that as a in a doctorate of philosophy program, a PhD program in higher education administration, and you stayed at Indiana State University. So talk to me about that because you you went on that journey of being a teacher in the classroom with with young kids, getting that exercise physiology degree, a recreation sports management degree. You're educating yourself seemingly on one path, and then you pivot, and you start working in higher education, and you decide to stay in higher education and get that additional degree. What made you decide to not only pivot in career, but also pivot in regard to what you were doing in your education to get that doctorate degree? Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:09:24]: Yeah. So when I started my program at Indiana State University, I also realized that I had once pivoted from a program to another. So when you make decisions and when you kind of change those, it kind of can rattle you. So here too, I was a little rattled because I had lost some time. So I had to make sure that this decision was I had to make the best out of this decision. So what I did was I made, as you mentioned in the beginning, this is a journey. I made a lot of friends who were professionals in the field of higher education. These were the faculty and the staff of Indiana State University, and I made these connections through my work as a graduate assistant. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:10:05]: I was a graduate assistant for employee assistance program, the the department that was very much focused on providing wellness for, the faculty and staff. I made a lot of friends among professionals, and every conversation was a learning opportunity for me. And that's when I also realized that probably I could do better and I would be a lot more satisfied as a professional in the field of higher education working with young adults. So I started thinking of switching from K through 12 to higher education. And a lot of work that I did at during my graduate assistantship period at Indiana State University was pretty much what a full time employee would do. So that confidence and that experience and the contacts and connections that I made at throughout my journey at Indiana State really helped me switch over to the higher ed field. So upon graduation, I moved to New York. I was working for State University of New York in the field of sports, management. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:11:04]: And then again, you need to realize that you make decisions based on what the information you have. So my two years of experience pursuing my sports management degree, my experience as an international student and perspective building and the role culture play really introduced me to this field of international student affairs. It took me a little bit of a time to make sure that this was something that I really wanted to pursue. So after working for about seven years in the field of sports management, I decided to pursue my PhD in student affairs, especially focusing on international student affairs or international student affairs in higher education. Again, this transition, some I mean, I've many times I've been asked, why did you change your career? And I never see this one as changing my career because I've always been into student development. Again, I switched my means. One was sports. Now I'm really just pivoting that and getting into international student experience and making sure that I can provide an opportunity for those cultural understanding and student development. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:08]: Now with every move into a new educational environment, there are transitions that you go through. You went through some big transitions going from a system in India and getting degrees in India to South Dakota to Indiana to different types of degrees, different types of types of expectations, different faculty, etcetera. As students go through those transitions, they have to learn what it takes to find success. Talk to me about what you had to do in those transitions to be able to not only transition into the programs, but also transition through the programs, finding success along that journey. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:12:49]: So I think when we make decisions, we need to be sure why we are making those decisions. There is no right or wrong reasons. You make decisions based on the information that you have. Sometimes it might be career opportunities. Sometimes it might be that you just realize a new passion for a field of study. I think that most important aspect is making those connections of why you make a certain decision and see how much of your current skills can be transport or transportable is transportable. So you really take advantage of every knowledge that you have and then try and fit that into the new field of study. So having been in the sports field to or athletics, moving into international student affairs, again, for me, the connection was student development. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:13:33]: Now definitely, it is challenging, and that's where you find the companion companions for your journey. You need to find resources. And when you are challenged, you need to be able to you should and you should reach out to people who are in the field of this profession who can serve as mentors. In my I think all through this, if I, if if you ask what is that one aspect that helped me through all this journey, I had mentors. Not one. Multiple mentors in the field of higher education from day one. At Indiana State University, it was Doctor. Tom Sawyer, who was my advisor. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:14:12]: He was able he helped me make connections. When I say connections within the field of study, how I can really capitalize what I already know to the field that I'm getting into. And then as I said, as through my work as a graduate assistant, I made a lot of friends and family who literally took me under their wings recognizing that I had some potential but needed mentorship. So this included the Dean of Library, at that time, Betsy Hine, her family. Her husband was the Dean of was a Dean at Eastern Illinois. So they all kind of mentored me and held my hand as I was traveling through this field of higher education. And then again, I remember my, immigration advisor at Indiana State. He was the first one to really make those connections between what I was doing there to international student affairs and the role that office really plays. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:15:08]: And I was able to see that relationship because I had some experience, but it was not the same. I was able to relate it through this mentorship. And that was I mean, again, you know, today I work at an international office. Very often, students look our look at our office as that transactional space. I think it is very important as a graduate student that any office on this campus that you are should be viewed as a place where you can learn from. So that mentorship that I got at my previous institution really helped me through and make those connections. So I never felt that I changed my career. It was making connections and making progression. Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:15:49]: And that is what it took me about five, six years to further make bond, build the strength of those connections and make a decision that I wanted to pursue my PhD in a certain field and then also pursue a lasting career in that field of study. So if you in one sentence, I would say is mentorship. Find mentors who are faculty, who are administrators, who we can talk to, whom we can trust, and that is going to be very, very, very powerful throughout your grad school journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: Now you have found success. You got your degrees. You moved into your own professional career in international education. And as you look back at the education that you went through, many people would say, I see the connection in your doctorate to what you're doing today. But as you think back to all of the pieces, the building blocks, it could be the career steps, it could be the education. As you look back at your education and those building blocks, how did what you learn in all of those different...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/35400580
info_outline
Exploring the Path to Occupational Therapy with Dr. Julie Jacob
04/14/2025
Exploring the Path to Occupational Therapy with Dr. Julie Jacob
The path to success is rarely straightforward, and ’s journey from military service to directing the illustrates that vividly. During her appearance on the podcast, Victor’s in Grad School, Dr. Jacob shared her unique educational and professional trajectory, proving that twists, turns, and detours can lead to meaningful and rewarding outcomes. Starting her career in the military with a focus on communications, Dr. Jacob completed her associate degree in information systems management while serving. Yet, her passion lay elsewhere. After leaving the military and initially pursuing a healthcare-related degree in med lab sciences, her path shifted again. A challenging math course in undergrad led her to explore other healthcare options, eventually discovering occupational therapy (OT). Through research and coursework, Dr. Jacob recognized OT as her calling, igniting a commitment to lifelong learning and service. The Transitions: Adaptability and Resilience Each stage of Dr. Jacob’s academic journey—earning an associate’s degree, undergraduate degree, master’s degree, and doctorate—required significant adjustments. From rote memorization in earlier programs to analytical and self-directed learning in graduate school, she had to evolve her study habits and approach. More importantly, she developed robust skills in time management and organization, crucial for balancing her studies with work and family responsibilities. Dr. Jacob emphasized that succeeding in graduate studies takes significant sacrifice, as students often face financial, time, and personal challenges. “Organization and time management were the biggest pieces that I really had to nail down in order to be successful,” she shared. This lesson resonates universally for anyone embarking on a graduate school journey. The Passion for Occupational Therapy Occupational therapy is a field dedicated to enhancing individuals’ lives—helping people overcome physical, cognitive, and emotional challenges to engage in meaningful daily activities. Its blend of holistic care and creativity captured Dr. Jacob’s heart, paralleling her own multifaceted journey. “It’s strength-based and the perfect blend of art and science,” Dr. Jacob explained, illustrating why OT was the right fit for her and why it remains a fulfilling profession. Advice for Future Graduate Students With years of academic and professional experience, Dr. Jacob encouraged students to anticipate the sacrifices and challenges associated with graduate school. It may be demanding, but her story highlights that the rewards—personal growth, professional advancement, and meaningful impact—make it worthwhile. By embracing resilience, adaptability, and a passion for making a difference, anyone can navigate the twists and turns of their educational journeys as Dr. Jacob did. Let her experience serve as inspiration for your own path toward success. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week as we, every week, talk about the journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person walks a different path when it comes to looking at graduate school, considering graduate school, walking through graduate school to find that light at the end of the tunnel, leading you to the career and the dreams that you may have for your future. And the thing that is so important is that there are things that you can do right now as you are listening today to be able to prepare yourself for that journey and to prepare yourself to find success in that journey. And that's why every week we come back and we have an opportunity to be able to sit down and talk through this, but also you get an opportunity to learn from others that have done this before you. And that's why I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you to understand the journey that they went on to then allow you to take some things out of that, to look and consider what you can take out of it to build some tools for your own toolbox that help you along the way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: This week, we got another great guest. Doctor Julie Jacob is with us today, and doctor Jacob is the director of the occupational therapy doctorate program at the University of Michigan Flint. And we were just talking prior to talking today about the journey that she went on, and it it's a circuitous path. And sometimes for for students like you, you may have a circuitous or you may have a circuitous path that will twist and turn along the way to get you to that endpoint. And we're gonna talk to Julie about that today. So I'm really excited to have her here and for you to learn from her experiences. Julie, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:02:08]: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: Yeah. I am really excited to be able to have you here today to talk about the journey that you went on. And I talked about the fact that your journey was not a linear path, but more circuitous and the fact that you you had a number of twists and trends along the way. So I always start these opportunities to get a little bit more sense. And I know you got into your degrees first through the military, but then the journey began. So I want to go back because I know that you did your first educational experiences in the military as a part of the military. And thank you for your service. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:02:43]: Oh, you're welcome. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:44]: And then after you got out, you did some work. Somewhere along this pathway, you decided to get an undergraduate degree, and you went to Saginaw Valley State University. And while you were at Saginaw Valley State University, you made a decision. You made a decision whether on your own accord or not to continue your education, and you ended up finding occupational therapy. Talk to me about that journey for yourself, and what led you to occupational therapy ultimately? Dr. Julie Jacob [00:03:15]: Well, when I was in the military, I was in communications. And so my associate's degree, I took classes while I was in, and my associate's degree is in information systems management. So I took classes when I was deployed, when I was at my main duty station, as I could part time obviously, and got that accomplished. But I knew that I wanted to go into health care. I was kinda like, what do I wanna be when I grow up? And I knew I wanted a health care career. At the time, I chose to get out of the military because there was not a health care career that I could transition to and remain active duty at that time. So when I went to pursue my undergraduate degree, initially, I was a med lab sciences major, and I was taking all of the required courses for that major. And I happened to take, a more advanced math course and found it very challenging. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:03:59]: And I had never really been challenged in my undergrad. I I got very good grades, but sometimes that happens. And I did everything that I could, but I thought to myself, maybe this is not the right major for me. And so I needed to stay at Saginaw Valley just for, you know, financial reasons, stay stay in the general region where I was at. And I started looking into other programs that they offered, and I stumbled upon occupational therapy. And I had not really heard of that before. And as I did more investigating, I'm like, wow. This sounds like this career is right up my alley. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:04:24]: It's health care related. The curriculum looks really interesting, is something that I would be interested in doing. So I ended up changing my major to that. And at that time, it was for the profession, entry level was a bachelor's program. But as luck would have it, I was taking classes part time. And when I decided to transition full time, the profession of occupational therapy had undergone a shift to make it, master's level prepared entry level. So if I wanted to continue, I would need to get a master's degree. And so I was already invested at that point and decided to just continue my studies. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:01]: Now you had a lot of transitions going from getting an associate's degree in the military, to getting an undergraduate degree, to getting a master's degree and then getting a doctorate degree. And in all of those transitions, you have to learn something new. Every educational transition brings you to having to learn about those different educational, those educational environments and being able to understand the expectations, etcetera. But you found success in those journeys. You were able to get your associates, get your bachelor's, get that master's, get that doctorate degree. Talk to me about those transitions, the transition into undergrad, transition from undergrad to master's, transition from master's to doctorate, and what you learned along the way in those transitions as you transitioned in. And as you transitioned in, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success as you transitioned through those programs to your ultimate goal? Dr. Julie Jacob [00:06:01]: Well, I think the way that you're assessed is different. I mean, I remember early on in my educational journey, you know, you're taking a lot of exams, and it's a lot of rote memorization of the content. So the way I was studying was different. As I transitioned into, you know, going from my bachelor's into my master's program, the work there was a shift in the in the expectation and the work. So it was more clinical reason how I was thinking about things. You know, clinical reasoning, critical thinking skills were more required rather than just, you know, studying for an exam and forgetting about it. I felt like I was building upon my knowledge. Every single class required me to kind of remember what I had learned before and apply that to the new content. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:06:40]: Organization was very, very important. Time management was really important. You know, you're you'd have big papers to write rather than just just studying for a simple exam. So allowing myself more time. I was also working. I I worked during my master's program and my doctorate program. I was working. So that takes a lot of balance, in order to manage manage my time and and devote what I needed to to my studies plus everything that else just to balance my home life. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:07:12]: So I think there's definitely a shift in the expectation. And then transitioning to my doctorate program, it was all self directed learning. You have everything kind of laid out for you. The expectations are laid out for you. There's a lot more discussion, but everything was pretty much self directed at that point. And a lot of that in the master's program too, of course. So, yeah, I think for me, like, organization and time management was were the biggest pieces that I really had to nail down in order to be successful. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: Now I know that from doing your undergrad and your grad at Saginaw Valley State University, you ended up at some point deciding that you wanted to get a doctorate degree and you went to Nova Southeastern to be able to do that program. Talk to me about the decision to go further than the masters, because you could have decided to stay with the masters, be a practitioner, work as an OT, and having a a fruitful career, staying and working in that environment, but you decided to continue on, get the doctorate, and go back and teach. So talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go further and get that doctorate degree? Dr. Julie Jacob [00:08:25]: So I was a clinician for many years, and then I actually transitioned into academia. And I went to work in the occupational therapy department at Santa Clara Valley State University, which was a great transition for me. So I was in charge of all the field work classes. I taught adjunct for some of the, undergraduate prereqs in the occupational therapy program. But there's been a lot of transition still in the occupational therapy field with a lot of programs moving towards an entry level doctorate degree. So we still have dual points of entry in our profession. So you can enter the profession at a master's level or you can choose to have an entry level doctorate, which is like what we have at University of Michigan Flint. But if you have a program that has a doctorate, entry level doctorate, all of your faculty must be doctorally prepared. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:09:08]: And teaching at Saginaw Valley, I was not. So if they that program was going to transition and there was a lot of talk that they were going to transition and a lot of talk of the profession that they were gonna mandate a transition at that time to keep my job. I had to move towards a doctor degree. So I could have gone back to clinical practice, like you said. I mean, that's easy. I love treating patients and I love clinical practice, but I really grew to love teaching in academia. And I knew that I wanted to stay in academia. So So there's no question for me. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:09:35]: I'm like, okay, then this is what I need to do in order to maintain my ability to, to teach. I need to get my doctorate degree. And so then I explored that option and decided to pursue that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:44]: So one of the things that I'm kind of interested in is that, you know, you went from being in the military to being a full time student, to being a full time student and working, and, you know, you're balancing all of these different things like many students do. And as you look back at the experience that you had in your graduate degree in both your graduate degrees and you think about what you do today, how did all of this other experience lead you to where you are today? And how do you draw from that graduate school experience in the work that you do on a daily basis? Dr. Julie Jacob [00:10:20]: I mean, like you said, my path is a little unconventional, but I almost feel like a lot of students now, you know, there there's a lot of people out there that are completely switching career fields when their, their paths are not linear. I think that lends itself to having a lot of life experience, especially in a healthcare profession that helps you connect better with your patients. They say, you know, you can't connect the dots looking forward, but you can connect the dots looking backward. And I certainly can connect the dots to everything that I've done. I mean, even my experience in the air force in communications and having my associate's degree in information systems management, I got my doctorate degree in health science with a concentration in telehealth. And a lot of the curriculum that I studied had to do with technology and some of the things that I was doing way back in my associate's degree and in my my military service. So the dots definitely connect. So def that all served me to help me get to where I am today. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:11:13]: You know, my clinical practice being occupational therapy, I couldn't teach if I didn't have any clinical practice. Right? So, I think all of it kind of led me. And the fact that I went ahead and I got my doctorate degree, and I'm now teaching in a entry level doctorate program. And I was able to obtain a position at University of Michigan Flint, which I otherwise would not have. Had I not decided to go ahead with that, I would not have been able to have the position that I'm in today and to continue to teach and help shape future practitioners in OT. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: Now, like I said, you are the program director of the occupational therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint. And as you said, you found this passion, you found this career area for yourself, and not everybody knows about what occupational therapy is all about. And a lot of times it is a found career unless they unless someone has had an experience with an occupational therapy or has had a family member with an occupational therapy, occupational therapist in the past. So talk to me about occupational therapy and why are you so passionate about it and why is it such a great career area for you and for others? Dr. Julie Jacob [00:12:18]: Occupational therapy, healthcare profession that we're focused on helping individuals of all ages. So, you know, essentially from birth to death to palliative care, and we focus on helping people participate in meaningful activities or what we call occupations. So So anything that occupies your time is essentially what an occupation is that are essential to their daily lives. So that could be anything from your self care that you're doing, activities of daily living, work, education, which is the primary occupation of students at our university, their leisure activities, social interaction. So, but the ultimate goal of occupational therapy is to help people live as independently and as fully as they possibly can. Despite any challenges, whether that be physical or cognitive, emotional, or any social challenges that they may face. And OTs really address the whole person. It's a very holistic approach to health care. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:13:07]: So we address physical, emotional, psychological factors rather than just focusing on, like, there an illness or an injury or a disability. So we're it's strength based. And I think it it's kind of the perfect blend of art and science because occupational therapists can be very, very creative in their approach. It's very person centered. We utilize the things of the occupations that people do as forms of intervention, which is it's a really unique way of addressing the needs of our patients. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:34]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. Now, as you think of students, whether they are looking at going to become an occupational therapist or whatever graduate degree that they have an interest in, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Dr. Julie Jacob [00:13:50]: It takes sacrifice. It really does take sacrifice. I think sometimes people think it's going to be easy. I'm gonna do this thing and it's gonna be easy and I'm gonna get through it and but it really does take a lot of sacrifice in your time. Sometimes it's financial sacrifice. I mean, I have student loans. Nobody paid for me to go to school. I had my GI bill, which paid for a very small portion of my undergraduate degree. Dr. Julie Jacob [00:14:11]: And after that, it was all loans. So there was a definitely a financial sacrifice for me. There's a time sacrifice as far as having to work and balance all of those things. And even with my doctorate degree, I have children. So there's the sacrifice there, and they understood and were very supportive. But I think you need to be able to recognize that in advance and just have that expectation that sometimes not everything is gonna go perfectly, but it's worth it to put in the work. You just have to put in the work to get to your goal. And all of it is worth it in the end to be able to get there. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for your time today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best. Thank you. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education....
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/35400225
info_outline
Advancing Public Health: How Endia Crabtree Paved Her Path in Graduate Education
04/07/2025
Advancing Public Health: How Endia Crabtree Paved Her Path in Graduate Education
The Value of Graduate Education: A Stepping Stone for Career Development In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, interviewed , an accomplished professional with a background in anthropology, public health education, and medical writing. Throughout the discussion, Crabtree emphasized how graduate education enriched her skills and positioned her for career opportunities. Her journey exemplifies how graduate programs provide more than just theoretical knowledge—they shape individuals into problem-solvers and leaders prepared to tackle real-world challenges. For Crabtree, graduate school was not only an academic pursuit but also an avenue to discover and act on her passions, from studying forensic anthropology to addressing public health disparities. Finding Passion and Purpose Crabtree’s educational path began with a fascination for forensic anthropology, inspired by her undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan Flint. Eventually, her curiosity shifted toward understanding health outcomes across cultures, sparking a passion for public health. Graduate school became the launching pad for her decision to pursue research and interventions focusing on populations affected by diseases such as cancer and HIV, particularly within underserved communities. For Crabtree, discovering a population-driven focus helped her align her professional goals with deeply personal motivations, such as her family’s experience with cancer. Leveraging Networking and Professional Organizations A recurring theme in Crabtree’s journey was the importance of proactively building relationships and engaging with professional organizations. From her undergraduate days to her postdoctoral fellowships, her active involvement in groups like the American Public Health Association and MedTech Women enabled her to network, share knowledge, and collaborate across diverse fields. These connections opened doors to opportunities and exposed her to cross-functional teamwork. Aspiring graduate students can replicate her success by joining such communities, contributing to their efforts, and gaining valuable leadership experience. The Grad School Toolbox: Collaboration, Accountability, and Adaptability One of Crabtree’s key takeaways from graduate education was learning to collaborate effectively—a skill she still utilizes daily in her current role as principal clinical product risk scientist at Boston Scientific. Group projects, though sometimes challenging, taught her the importance of accountability, shared goals, and strategic planning. She noted that these experiences prepared her for cross-functional teamwork in global settings. Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students Crabtree’s journey underscores the importance of entering graduate school with intention and an openness to pivot. Her advice to students? View classmates as allies, not competitors, and prioritize building supportive relationships. Whether through group projects or networking events, working collaboratively can lead to lasting friendships, resource sharing, and professional growth. Endia Crabtree’s inspiring journey serves as a testament to the transformative potential of graduate education, emphasizing the value of perseverance, collaboration, and a passion for lifelong learning. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, we have a great opportunity to be able to connect and to be able to walk hand in hand together on this journey that you're on to get that graduate degree. Now you could be at the very beginning working to try to figure out, do I really wanna do this? Do I wanna get that graduate degree? Or maybe you're in a program and you're currently in there trying to figure out, okay, what do I need to do next? Or maybe that light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer and you're getting ready to graduate. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do to find success in this journey that you're on, and that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to talk to you about different resources, different skills, different things that you can do to be able to find success in the journey that you're on. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: And we do that through introducing you to other people, people that have gone before you, have gone and gotten degrees or are currently in degrees and have had an opportunity to be able to find success for themselves. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Endia Kramtree is well, doctor Endia Kramtree is with us today, and Endia is the principal clinical product risk scientist at Boston Scientific. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her and to have her share some of her journey with us in Endia. Thanks so much for being here today. Endia Crabtree [00:01:48]: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about this. I love you, Evelyn Flynn. It's my first stomping ground. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and to learn more about this journey that you've been on because you've had a bit of a journey where you've gotten numerous degrees and different steps to where you are today. I wanna start off our conversation by turning the clock back in time. I wanna go back to that undergraduate work that you were doing. I know you got a bachelor of arts in anthropology, but you also had a concentration in medical anthropology. And then at some point in that undergraduate degree, you made a decision to move on and get a master's degree. What made you choose to continue your education and get that graduate degree? Endia Crabtree [00:02:32]: 1st, I was interested in forensic anthropology, and I initially majored in biology because biology is the foundation of forensic anthropology. You're trying to understand the underlying causes of death or mortality for people whose remains it could have been discovered several months or years ago to centuries ago. And it was just really fascinating to me to learn about a person's life, what they've been through, any health ailments that they may have had. And as you need biology to know how to do that, you need biology, you need chemistry, you need all of these, what they like to call the big life sciences to understand that. And when I first started off as a freshman, actually before I switched over to major in anthropology, I took a biology class. It was organismal biology. 1st class as a freshman, 2005. And I walk in there, and there's over 200 students, which at the University of Michigan Flint campus, I did not expect. Endia Crabtree [00:03:38]: And it was a difficult class, but it was a good class. I did learn a lot. But after taking that class and went into my 2nd semester, I took cultural anthropology, and I also took a an archaeology class, and that is actually what introduced me to anthropology itself. So even though I've heard of forensic anthropology, I did not know about the anthropology part about the about anthropology. I just thought of it as, you know, another science. And at that time, in 2005, CSI and all of those programs were huge for that time. That was a big deal. So myself among and other people were really interested in taking that path, but I specifically it was myself and only myself who was doing forensics. Endia Crabtree [00:04:25]: So, anyway, to back up a little bit, I switched out of biology and decided to major in anthropology because, a, I connected with the professors immediately. I liked my classmates more. The classes were smaller. And and it which is part of why I went to University of Michigan Flint. I've always loved Michigan. I live and breathe, bleed blue all day, but I needed to do it in a smaller space. It's on a smaller campus. But with that said, at being at University of Michigan Flint versus at Narber, you do have smaller labs. Endia Crabtree [00:04:57]: You will have less people to interact with for something as niche as forensic anthropology. So, anyway, to fast forward, I'd say going on to my senior year, I've taken by my senior year, of course, I've taken pretty much every class in my major. I even did archaeology field school at one point, which was really cool, and that actually introduced me to paleontology. And I also love that, but there was something about studying and working with people who are deceased that over time became it was sad and it was dark in the lab. It was a little boring. You know, I just didn't enjoy it as much even though I did love my professor who was doctor Beverly Smith. I learned over time that it just wasn't for me. I was like, well, maybe I I love anthropology, but maybe I should think about how can I contribute to this world by helping people who are alive? And so medical anthropology, my senior year, and it was there that I actually got exposed to public health and exposed to health, health outcomes, wellness, the understanding of what health is, how is it how it's defined, what wellness means from a cross cultural perspective, from perspective outside of the United States, so outside of a permiritricism, outside of US and western thoughts, that really blew my mind. Endia Crabtree [00:06:19]: I could not believe that there was a concentration, a profession, a pathway that even exposes you to health and the meaning of that across cultures. And so I took that class. I learned about Eastern medicine. I learned about medicine in pretty much every continent, and it was there that I decided that, public health, this is what I want to do. This is where I need to be. I am passionate about health and helping people. And at the time, University of Michigan Flint offered, MS in health education. And my senior year of undergrad, I actually took the first grad course, which was health behavior theory or something along those lines. Endia Crabtree [00:07:06]: It may have a different name by now, but health behavior theory with doctor Shan Parker. And I was given the opportunity to take that course, which is the first course in the program to see how I would do before I was granted full enrollment. It was extremely difficult, but I loved it. I learned so much. That was a huge pivot from the way that I had to think to the way that I had to write. And I went from more of a qualitative thinker to a quantitative thinker, and the rest is history. And it was also there that I learned that I need to pick a population, which for me at the time was HIV and STI among black or African Americans and other minorities. Just trying to understand the impact of that disease from both a knowledge standpoint. Endia Crabtree [00:07:54]: So what do people already know about this? What is the understanding of transmission and treatment and the long term effects of that? And I chose that disease ailment at the time because that is what my adviser was working on. And so and so that's why I decided to go into that program. I did the MS in health education or public health education as I like to put it. I like to put the public health in there instead of just leaving it as health education is often confused with gym teacher, which is an honorable pathway and profession, but it is often confused. So saying public health education over just health education was better understood by the public when I talk to people about it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:34]: So I know that you completed that degree, You finished that program up. You went. You did some work out in the field. You you did a number of different things over the years. And at some point, between the end of that degree and the late 20 tens, you decided to get another degree, and you decided to start a program toward a doctorate of philosophy, a PhD in public health education. So talk to me about that and why you made the decision that you wanted to go further and go from having that master of science in public health education to then pushing yourself to getting a doctor degree in in public education as well. Endia Crabtree [00:09:16]: So I knew pretty early on, honestly, as an undergrad that I would need to pursue as high education as possible. I knew at least my junior year, even before I decided which pathway that I wanted to take, I always knew I need to get a PhD. Anthropology is not a major or at least at the time, and I I wanna make that clear for back in 2005 to 2010. If you major in anthropology, you are majoring in a profession that you do need to get graduate education on. At the time, I knew of no other anthropologist regardless of their chosen pathway, whether it be cultural, forensic, biological anthropology, linguistics, They all went on for a PhD. And even though I did pivot from anthropology to public health, it's the same story. Though public health professionals can stop and often do stop at an Miles per hour, which is totally fine, I knew that I wanted to do research. And if I was gonna be taken seriously as a research, and honestly, as a black woman, I felt that I needed to do it all. Endia Crabtree [00:10:30]: Like, I needed to go as far as possible so that not only will I give myself access to several jobs in public health, in the sciences, as a scientist, as a a person who's, you know, taking seriously as a researcher that I would not leave myself any gaps, that that I would not leave any room for denial for a particular position because I don't have that. And wanting to be a scientist slash researcher going to get a PhD, it trains you and exposes you to what that actual environment looks like regardless of the path chosen. When I was in my 2nd year of the MS in public health education program when I realized that I wanted to pivot from HIV to cancer. So I actually have a family history of cancer. My mother had colorectal cancer when I was 13, stage 3, and she was only 42 at the time. So familiar with Chadwick Boseman, she was literally in the same boat as him, but she's still with us today. Believe it or not, she what was that? 20,021,001 when she was diagnosed, but it made a huge impact on me. I didn't just wanna be behind the scenes to find a treatment for cancer. Endia Crabtree [00:11:49]: I also wanted to be like I wanted to understand the the who, what, when, where, why. I wanted to understand the cause the cause and effect. What causes this? Why are certain populations more affected than others? Why was my mother diagnosed so early? Was it the job that she worked? Is it the ZIP code that we lived in? I mean, I had these questions. These are my these are the questions that I had. I wanted to understand, and she's not the only person my family affected. I am from Flint, Michigan. I grew up there. My parents worked in GM. Endia Crabtree [00:12:19]: My father's a Vietnam vet. A lot of people were inflicted with cancer there. And so, no, this is my life. I never did it for accolades either. I just wanted to have opportunity. But, yes, I pivoted my my second year second and last year of the MS program and pursued a PhD in public health education, but I had a concentration in epidemiology. And I concentrate in epidemiology so that I can, you know, focus on the who, what, when, where, the distribution of the disease, who's affected, why why is a person in ZIP code a, Why are they experiencing later diagnoses in a person in ZIP code b? Is it because of money, socioeconomic status? Is it simply because a person is a person of color, or is it because of where they live and their circumstances and the food that they have access to? So these are real questions that are being asked and are being researched, and I wanted to know not just what causes it, but how does it come back. So I was on the survivorship end of the spectrum. Endia Crabtree [00:13:20]: And while I was in school studying this, having all this on my mind, trying to figure it out, I was also a full time employee at FedEx. I am one of the rare few who went school full time and worked full time. I needed to make money, and I also needed to get this degree. And I still finished on time somehow. But because I was working full time, I was not a traditional PhD student, so I was not able to dedicate as much time to research and publishing outside of my dissertation work. So it was actually my 2nd year of my PhD program when I realized I needed to go on and pursue a postdoc. So, postdoctoral fellowship where I did 2 years at the University of sin Cincinnati Cancer Institute, where I had the honor and privilege to working with doctor Beverly Riegle, who started their cancer survivorship clinic. And it was there that I got to work with the team to start a clinic and learn about research from the administrative side. Endia Crabtree [00:14:22]: And that was an awesome experience, but because I was learning from the administrative side and still, just like with my PhD, didn't have much opportunity to pursue research full time as a traditional student slash postdoc. I went on and did another 2 years at Cincinnati Children's Hospital. And while I was there, in order to supplement my education and when I was learning, I was taking courses. Like, I did a certificate here, certificate there, and took some courses at Johns Hopkins University. And the courses that I took, which were I took geographic information systems, and I took an environmental health course. I learned that I could actually earn a degree if I took just a few more courses. So I went ahead and pursued the master's of liberal arts. I had no initial plans to do this, but while I was on track, I was like, I might as well. Endia Crabtree [00:15:15]: Like, I've been a student so long, and I knew how to do it. So I just went ahead and and pursued that. But I'm really thankful for that because I while I was at Johns Hopkins, I also gained a new a new network, and I was able to work on a social epidemiology project that I was interested in. And I did that from 2017 to 2019. I enjoyed that. And although that was a great opportunity as well as my postdoc, I needed to settle myself back down and sort of come back out of the clouds and say, okay. What am I gonna do with all of this? Now I have a lot. I have more than I ever imagined. Endia Crabtree [00:15:54]: I have a certificate in in environmental epidemiology at the Ohio State University. I have this new MLA, the PhD, the MS. I have all of these credentials, but I need to actually pull all of this together and do something with it and well, make a decision about it. I knew that I was gonna do something. I was not gonna do my math with not you know, with nothing to show for it. But when I was a post tech at children's, I was really involved with the office of postdoctoral affairs, and I actually, along with other postdoctoral fellows, created a diversity group in partnership between the University of Cincinnati and Cincinnati Children's. And and I got to learn a lot about what people were doing with their pathways where we were all different PhDs from biomedical science to psychology to biomedical informatics. I mean, everyone was doing a little bit of we were really diverse. Endia Crabtree [00:16:49]: We were representing all sorts of fields. But, yeah, I was there at Cincinnati Children's Hospital that I learned about what it really meant to be a researcher in an academic space. And over time, I learned that that wasn't for me. As much as I will forever be passionate about cancer research and as much as that means to me, I didn't think it was the right space for me to be in an academic center. So I began to search other opportunities of which I learned about the pathway that I'm in now, which I will get into...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/35399890
info_outline
Dr. Cathy Larson on Physical Therapy, Research, and Educational Success
03/31/2025
Dr. Cathy Larson on Physical Therapy, Research, and Educational Success
Undertaking the path from a Bachelor’s degree to gaining a Ph.D. in Physical Therapy (PT) is not just an academic pursuit but a transformative journey of personal and professional growth. Dr. , the Director of the at the , joins the Victors in Grad School podcast to share her remarkable voyage through the layers of graduate education, her decision points, and insights for aspiring scholars. The Early Years: Finding Direction From Pre-Vet to Physical Therapy Dr. Larson embarked on her academic journey at Michigan State University intending to become a veterinarian. However, a pivot towards human healthcare led her to discover physical therapy. Experiences shadowing PTs and OTs at Sparrow Hospital sparked her interest in the field, prompting her to shift her focus from pre-vet to physiology to better prepare for a PT career. Exploring Educational Options At a time when PT programs were transitioning from bachelor’s to master’s degrees, Dr. Larson was strategic in her selection, focusing on institutions offering a Master of Science. After visiting several campuses, the University of Alabama stood out due to her connection with the faculty and the research opportunities it offered. She cherished her clinical and educational experiences, working in diverse locations and handling a wide range of cases, including some in unconventional settings like Cook County Hospital in Chicago. The Leap to Academia Returning to Academia Despite an enriching clinical career spanning three decades, Dr. Larson felt an insatiable curiosity and a desire to delve deeper into research. Balancing young children and a part-time clinical position, she pursued her Ph.D. in Kinesiology at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, seeking to gain the skills necessary for independent research and to fulfill her passion for teaching. Developing Research Skills Dr. Larson highlighted the need for a Ph.D. to conduct rigorous research, which is integral to addressing complex questions arising in clinical practice. Her coursework and seminars equipped her with advanced research methodologies and critical evaluation skills, elements she felt lacked even in advanced clinical practice. Teaching and Nurturing New Generations Directing the PT PhD Program As the Director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint, Dr. Larson now leads the charge in preparing future physical therapists for academic and research roles. She underscores the program's unique blend of catering to those who have completed their DPT and those pursuing dual DPT/PhD paths, thus fulfilling a niche in physical therapy education. Preparing for Success in Graduate School Dr. Larson reflects on the evolution from clinician to scholar, emphasizing the importance of organizational skills, effective study strategies, and stress management. These foundational elements, cultivated during undergraduate studies, are crucial for thriving in the rigorous environment of graduate programs. Embracing Continuous Learning The Multifaceted Career of a Physical Therapist One of the appeals of the physical therapy profession, as Dr. Larson articulates, is its versatility. Physical therapists can engage in clinical practice, education, research, or a combination thereof, continually evolving within their careers without needing to switch fields entirely. This multidisciplinary nature enriches the professional landscape, allowing PTs to pursue diverse passions and redefine their roles continuously. Dr. Larson’s journey underscores that graduate education, particularly in physical therapy, is more than a means to an end—it’s a path of continuous learning and professional development. Her insights offer invaluable guidance for those considering advanced degrees, illustrating that the quest for knowledge and improvement doesn’t stop at the clinic but extends into the realms of research and education. Aspiring PTs can draw inspiration from her experiences and understand that every step, every challenge, and every triumph on this path is a significant stride toward making impactful contributions to the field of physical therapy. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, we are on a journey together. We have this opportunity to be able to talk every week and be able to look at what I call your journey, your educational journey. It is a journey because no matter where you are, you may be just starting to think about graduate school. Maybe you applied, you're waiting on that answer, or you got that answer and you and you've gotten accepted and now you're figuring out, am I going to go there? Am I going to do this? You know, what's next? Or maybe you're in graduate school and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you're or maybe you're close to being done. And now you're looking at what's next. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: No matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do to be successful in the journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to have this opportunity to talk with you, to walk with you, to help you to find success, find tools, find resources, things that you can do to be able to build some tools for your own toolbox and prepare yourself even more for the success that you want in graduate school. Every week, I introduce you to different people with different experiences. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor Cathy Larson is with us. And doctor Larson is the director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have her here. She did her undergraduate work at Michigan State University, getting a bachelor's in physiology, and then went on and got a master of science degree in physical therapy when all the PG programs were still requiring the master's. That's changed now. Now all the PT programs are requiring a doctorate degree in physical therapy. And her PT degree was from the University of Alabama. And then she went on to get a PhD in kinesiology from the University of Michigan. So I'm really excited for her to share some of her own journey with you, but also her journey as a faculty member. And I'm excited to introduce her to you. Cathy, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:16]: Well, thank you, Chris. It was a nice introduction. And yes, that so far has been my journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:21]: Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And what I wanna do first and foremost is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I wanna use that magic wand of mine to go back in time. And I wanna go back to Michigan State University, where you were working on that bachelor's degree. And at some point during that time at Michigan State University, you had this inkling, you had this thought, you said, I want to go beyond getting this bachelor's degree in physiology to get a degree in physical therapy. Talk to me about that point. What made you decide physical therapy was the field that you wanted to study? Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:55]: Well, that's a great question because to be honest with you, I went to Michigan State University thinking that I was going to become a vet. They have a great vet school at Michigan State. I went there and maybe I'm still a vet wannabe, but I did get the opportunity to explore different careers, and I was looking for a health career. So I decided that I wanted to really be beneficial to not animals, but human beings. So I I got the opportunity to go and explore different health fields. I went to Sparrow Hospital, for example, and observed their PT department, OT, etcetera. And then I really got a spark when I was exploring physical therapy. And so I contemplated quite a while to figure out if that's what I wanted to do. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:03:51]: And so I did shadow some physical therapists. I shadowed an OT as well, but then I decided that PT was what I wanted to do. I was pre vet. So I ended up trying to figure out which undergraduate degree would best prepare me for PT. So I chose first physiology, which I got to do some research as an undergraduate student. I was able to take all my prerequisites for my PT degree, applying for the PT degree. And at that point in time, it was a master's degree. So there were only like maybe 8 programs, because this was in the period when we were converting from bachelor programs to master's degrees. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:04:38]: And I was starting to get to the point that I was almost at the end of my bachelor's degree when I decided. So I ended up really just thinking about that. And to be honest with you, my mom was really influential in saying, well, if you've got, if you're close to a bachelor's degree, finish that and then try to apply for a master's degree, which in the long run really served me well because then I had the master's degree and the ability to apply for a PhD. So I had that master's degree and it was in physical therapy. It was in Alabama. So I loved Birmingham. I loved the warm weather. I remember walking around with all the dogwood trees and all the rhododendrons, etcetera. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:24]: But I really enjoyed that experience because there were only 8 people in the master's program, but then there were a much larger number in the bachelor's program. So they had both and the 8 of us were treated, I want to say a little bit special because we got more individual attention. I just got great experiences. I had great clinical experiences in my master's degree. I still think back on those and I got to do them across the country. So I was in St. Louis for a while. I was actually in Kentucky and did some of my clinicals. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:58]: I did one in Chicago, which was very meaningful because I was born in bad ex Michigan. I'm a rural girl. And so going to Chicago and I was working at Cook County Hospital there or doing my affiliation, my clinical affiliation at Cook County. And I ended up treating a patient that was in shackles and, you know, that was a little difficult to have him walk up the stairs, but I was exposed to a huge variety of patients. I remember this was the first time that I saw a patient wearing a halo, which is a huge cumbersome neck brace, which we still use in PT. But I, he was walking around with the halo and I'm going, wait a minute, this does not compute. He had a spinal cord injury and he's walking around, but he was mainly involved in his upper extremities. So it was just like very startling. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:06:57]: So my journey has been kind of a longer one because I, you know, I did do my bachelor's degree then, I did immediately go into my master's degree, but then I waited to start my PhD in Ann Arbor. Now I lived in the Ypsilanti area, so Ann Arbor was close, but I needed to go and talk to potential chairs. So you do need to align yourself just like we do now for our PhD program at U of M Flint. You do want to align yourself with a chair that is investigating areas of study that are passions for you as well. So to match up with a chair. So I did a lot of exploration and I did find Charles Warrenham, who was my initial chair at U of M in Ann Arbor. And he was studying movement sciences, which mirrored in, you know, it was a definite positive experience for me as a physical therapist. And I did work in the clinic. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:06]: I worked in the clinic. I'm not working right now, but I worked in the clinic for a significantly long time, mainly at the Rehab Institute of Michigan in Detroit that I worked as a clinician for, what, 30 years total on and off. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: One question that I have for you is you had mentioned back at the master's level. Let's go back there first. You talked about the fact that at the time when you were looking at physical therapy schools, there were only a handful of schools out there. So I'm sure you did some searching, some exploration to look at those 8 programs that you mentioned that were out there that would allow for a student to come in at a master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for? Master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for and what made you ultimately decide to go to the University of Alabama? Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:57]: Well, the University of Alabama had a master's of science. So that's why, what I was looking for. So I did want that master's degree, but I visited many of the campuses. So fortunately I had the financial means to go and, and some of them actually did, have obligatory. This was before internet. So we needed to travel as opposed to having an online interview. That was not an option at that time. So I did visit a few of those places. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:09:32]: And then I just, when I got to the university of Alabama, I just clicked with the faculty that I was interviewing and speaking with. I was allowed to, you know, talk with faculty over a 2 day period, which gave me a lot of time to get to know people. And then, so, and then I just clicked with several of the faculty members and it was a pleasure to get to know them, understand what their research is. And then to be honest with you, we didn't figure out exactly the who was gonna chair my master's thesis, but that, that ended up being a very positive experience. So it was a connection with the faculty and what they do and their program and they're laying it out and laid the program out. There were a huge dynamic faculty there and they influenced my decisions. And so while I was there, I was starting to say, you know what? I do wanna be a clinician first. So I was a clinician for multiple years until I decided to go back and get my PhD, but I ended up through the master's degree experience, wanting to be like these dynamic faculty. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:10:47]: And they were dynamic for multiple reasons. They helped you learn the material. They had time for 1 on 1 conversations while you're going through the courses, but they were also very involved with the American Physical Therapy Association. And they would bring speakers in, and we would learn from the speakers. I started going to the combined sections meetings through the APTA as a student there. I became a member of the APTA as a student way back when, and I have maintained my membership in the APTA ever since my student experience. So that was influential. When I was at the conferences, the faculty introduced me and helped me start to build my network. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:11:39]: So I'm talking too much about what happened as a master's student, but also your, your main question was what influenced me. And it truly was the connection with the faculty that said, okay, this is my home. This can be my home for a period of time. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: And I mentioned at the beginning, and you mentioned the journey continued on after going out, working, being a professional clinician for a number of years, you decided to go back to school to get a PhD. And not every physical therapist wants to do that. You know, many PTs are they're happy with the patient contact, the patient care, the work that they're doing in that clinical setting. You decided you wanted to go further, continue on with the re some of the research things that you you enjoyed and your master's degree. So talk to me about that decision. What made you decide that going back to school to get that PhD in kinesiology was the route that you wanted to take? Dr. Cathy Larson [00:12:42]: Okay. Well, I would like to express to you that I had young children at the time. So I was like, should I delay? Should I delay? And then I spoke to myself. I ended up going part time as a clinician. So I cut down my hours and then I joined the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Kinesiology department. I just really wanted to well, as a clinician, I didn't feel like I had the tools to perform research as well as I would like to. So I did not believe like, we had the opportunity to do research as a master's degree student, but I still didn't think I had the tools to make this research a big part of my career. So I was feeling that when I was in the clinic, I was like, well, I certainly would like to address this question about patient care or I'd like to do this about, you know, I would have issues arise with my patients and I'm going, I would really like to explore those issues, but to I didn't feel like I had the skills. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:13:51]: So I looked for a PhD program. Ann Arbor was a beautiful experience in that I learned so many skills that I did not have as a clinician to be able to carry out my own independent research projects. And that's what I think every PhD student's goal is to really dive into, like, research design, how to, of course, critically evaluate a research study and know enough about statistics to understand if they were correctly done. You look at a paper where the results that they have leading to the conclusions that they made or the discussion that they had for their research study. And I got a lot of opportunity to do that in my PhD, which I didn't have as a clinician at that point well enough to give me confidence to do independent research. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:49]: Now from there, you moved into academia and got into an opportunity to be able to teach other students and to be able to connect with other students where now you are leading the charge of working with PhD students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And kind of like the experience that you had with the master's program, there aren't a ton of PhD in physical therapy programs in the United States. Can you talk to me about the PT PhD? Let's talk about that specifically and why it was important for the University of Michigan Flint to create that program and to encourage clinicians, people with a terminal degree to continue on to get that PhD. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:15:36]: We first and there were others that were part of this, this first designing of a PhD program in physical therapy. And I just wanna help you understand and the audience to understand that you're right. This is a PhD in physical therapy that we offer at the University of Michigan Flint. It does prepare you to teach in doctor, you know, the DPT, doctor of physical therapy programs, and serve as a faculty for DP and DPT programs, as well as to do research, which I have the strong passion to try to help facilitate that experience for individuals that would like to seek a PhD. There are those that either right away, because we have a dual DPT PhD program that right away say, yes, I have aspirations to become a faculty member. And, you know, I had these career aspirations to be a faculty member and a researcher primary, you know, in physical therapy, or it could be a slightly broader. They might do their research and any of the healthcare health services. So, but mainly research that will help facilitate and answer questions for the PT profession. Dr. Cathy Larson [00:17:01]: So those individuals that really know right away that they want to teach and do research, it's a great avenue, even as, as you're going through the DPT program, you can apply and go through the dual program. Otherwise there is, you know, you can already have your degree in physical therapy and then apply for the PhD program. And then again, learn the skills to become an independent researcher. And also we have 6 credits in out of the 45 total credits that you need to take 45 45 to 55 credits that you need to take...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34938925
info_outline
Passion and Resilience in Graduate Education: Dr. Reza Amini’s Story
03/24/2025
Passion and Resilience in Graduate Education: Dr. Reza Amini’s Story
Entering graduate school is a significant milestone in one’s educational journey. It entails a multitude of steps, decisions, and transitions. In this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, we gained valuable insights from , Director of the program at the as well a seasoned academic and health professional. Dr. Amini’s journey from Iran to the United States highlights the complexities, challenges, and rewards of pursuing advanced degrees. Here, we further explore the key takeaways from his experiences and advice for current and prospective graduate students. From High School to Medical Degree: A Challenge of Adaptation Dr. Amini began his educational journey in Iran, where the system significantly differs from that in the United States. Students can transition directly from high school to medical school, contingent on their national exam scores. Reflecting on his own experience, he described the initial struggle at medical school due to the heightened expectations and rigorous study demands compared to high school. "It took me some time to adjust myself... I was not performing very well in the 1st, year, maybe the first three semesters," Dr. Amini shared, emphasizing the importance of connecting with supportive mentors and peers to navigate these early challenges. His story underlines the critical role of resilience, hard work, and the willingness to seek help in overcoming initial hurdles. Following a Passion: The Move to Public Health After practicing medicine for several years, Dr. Amini chose to pursue a master's degree in public health, driven by a desire to affect larger populations. His commitment to improving the lives of those with physical and mental disabilities, particularly veterans of the Iran-Iraq war, fueled this decision. "I was passionate to help people, and I was doing it in clinical practice... but it was not enough for me. I wanted to help more people and to spend more time impacting more people's lives," he explained. For him, research became a powerful tool to influence health policies and create substantive changes. His experience underscores the importance of aligning one's career with personal passions and motivations. Crossing Continents: A PhD Journey in the United States The decision to attain a PhD in sociology from the University of North Texas marked another transformative phase in Dr. Amini's career. Moving to a new country posed its own set of challenges, including adjusting to a different educational system and overcoming language and cultural barriers. Despite these obstacles, Dr. Amini remained focused on his larger goal: enhancing his research capabilities to make a global impact. He highlighted the value of international exposure to new academic environments and resources, which expanded his research scope and professional network. Balancing Academic and Personal Life Dr. Amini's story is also a testament to the balancing act required of graduate students, particularly those with families. Balancing academic commitments with personal responsibilities is a recurring theme among graduate students, as noted by Dr. Amini, who juggled full-time work, study, and family life. "Spending time at work, finding a specific time to study, it was very challenging working full time, spending enough time with my family, and at the same time doing my study," he remarked. His advice to maintain a support network and manage time effectively is crucial for anyone navigating similar challenges. Words of Wisdom for Aspiring Graduates Drawing from both his own experiences and his role as a mentor, Dr. Amini offers essential advice to students contemplating graduate education: Follow Your Passion : Choose a field that you are passionate about to ensure personal satisfaction and fulfillment. Be Resilient : Graduate school is demanding, and resilience is key to pushing through tough times. Seek Support : Never hesitate to ask for help from mentors, peers, or family members. A strong support system can make a significant difference. Dr. Reza Amini’s journey is a powerful testament to the determination, adaptability, and passion needed to succeed in graduate school. His experiences provide invaluable lessons for anyone on the path to advanced education, reminding us all that with the right mindset and support, achieving academic and professional goals is within reach. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being on this journey with you, and I call it a journey. I know I say this every week, but it is so true. You are on a journey, whether you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about, do I want to continue my education? And what kind of education might I want to get additional to my bachelor's degree? Or maybe you've applied and you're waiting on that answer, or you got the answer and and you got accepted and you're ready to go. Or maybe you're in the program and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. And no matter where you are in that continuum, in that journey, you are on a journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: And there are things that you can do. There are people that you can learn from that can give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to find success sooner. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find success in graduate school. No matter what type of graduate school you want to go through, we're gonna be giving you tools that will help you along the way. And that's why every week, I bring you different guests with different experiences that can talk to you about the journey that they have gone on. Today, I got another great guest. Doctor Reza Amini is with us today. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: And Dr. Amini has been a faculty member at the University of Michigan Flint for a number of years, and he leads our health care management program as well as our health services administration master's degrees. And we're gonna be talking to him about his experience, not only as a student himself, but as a faculty member to give you some perspective on what he's learned along the way. Reza, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Reza Amini [00:02:02]: Thank you for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: I'm really excited to have you. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is having an opportunity to be able to turn the clock back in time. And you've gotten a number of different graduate degrees. So you went from getting that medical doctorate degree from Shiraz University of Medical Sciences, and then from there, you got a master's degree in public health from the University of Social Welfare and Rehabilitation Sciences in Tehran. And then even beyond that, you got a PhD in sociology from the University of North Texas. So I wanna go back in time. I wanna go back to those years when you were a student thinking for yourself. What made you decide that you wanted to continue and go and get that initial graduate degree? Dr. Reza Amini [00:02:51]: Thank you so much for giving this opportunity to me to share my experience. In Iran, the education system is a little bit different from here in the United States. Students in high school, they can go straight to medical school, but they need to sit on exam, which is a national exam and get a national rank first. And based on their national rank, they can pick the programs that they they're eligible to go to. So in my experience, I was involved in many activities that I was exposed to medical, science and medical practice. When I was in middle school, many of my family members, my relatives, they were medical doctors. And, traditionally, my family, they were somehow involved in medical practice in traditional medicine in Iran. So, yeah, I had some incentives and some motivations for my family members, and I studied hard in the last two years of my high school to get a good rank. Dr. Reza Amini [00:04:06]: But in the first attempt, I was not very good. So my rank was about 9,000 in in the nation. But I studied 1 I spent one more year to study after graduating from high school, and my the second attempt, my rank was about 950 in the nation. So, something at that time about 2,000 people could go to medical school straight from high school, and I was eligible to do that based on my rank. So I started medical school. It takes 7 years to complete med school. It's a combination combined undergraduate and graduate section that usually student do in the United States. So that was challenging, especially in the first few years because you're in medical school, the expectation is much different from high school. Dr. Reza Amini [00:05:10]: Right? So you go straight to a program that requires more intensive studies. It took me some time to adjust myself. I was not performing very well in the 1st, year, maybe the first three semesters, but I had good connections with my faculty members and my, I found some great mentors in my peers, and they helped me to adjust myself with the new environment and new expectations. And it helped me to go through the 7 years of education. And after that, I graduated, from medical school, and I started doing medical practice as a general physician, which is very similar to family physician role in the US. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: Many times individuals at that point would say, I'm good. I don't need to continue my education. I have a career. I've got a career that pays a good salary, that I can stay in for my entire life. Now you decided to continue on after a number of years of practice and getting a master's degree in public health still in your country. So talk to me about what was the impetus for you to decide that you wanted to continue and get that master's degree after you had been working for those number of years? Dr. Reza Amini [00:06:41]: That's a great question and somehow complex. So I try to make summarize it and at the same time explain the the incentives and motivation behind the pursuing an Miles per hour after my MD. So one of the things that almost all of the physicians and those who are working in health services and health care system, they have the passion to help other people. And it was the same for me. I was passionate to help people, and I was doing it in clinical practice in my office and also in some other clinics that I shared, my practice with some of my colleagues. We established, the 1st private clinic, working on addiction treatment in Iran, and it was very rewarding to have those kind of create some environment to help other people in those clinics, but it was not enough for me. I wanted to help more people and to spend more time and impacting more people's lives with with my time. So although the job as as medical doctors, nurses, other practitioners doing, they are great and they are very valuable, but I wanted to do more and impact more people's lives. Dr. Reza Amini [00:08:11]: So I got involved in research in public health. So I was doing research and collaborating with, some researcher in a medical research center in Iran. The focus was on helping people with physical and mental disabilities to have a better life. And your audience may not know that Iran and Iraq were in war for 8 years. It was the bloodiest war in the 20th century. Half a 1000000 wounded and injured on each side, and we had a huge number of people with physical disabilities, and they were overlooked in health care system, in policy making, and in many aspects of health care. So I got involved because I saw the need for involving myself and sharing my experience and knowledge. But when you're in research, you know that there are so many things that you don't know. Dr. Reza Amini [00:09:15]: You learn that, and it gives you more incentive to do more research, to do more studies, and expand your knowledge. So because of that, I learned during that time that there are so many things that I don't know, and I need to know that in order to do my research and achieve my goals, which was helping people and creating the opportunity for policy makers to create and develop policies that can help these people. But if you create not accurate information for policy makers, their direction and decision making can have negative impacts on people's lives. And we see that in the in everywhere in the US right now and any aspects of our lives. Right? So wrong policies can have more negative impacts on people. So I wanted to know learn more about aging and public health in order to do my research and create more knowledge for policy makers that are more accurate and, the the highest level of accuracy of the knowledge that we were creating. So that was the the main incentive that I went to another graduate school to do my Miles per hour, and my Miles per hour was focused on gerontology, which is about older adults and helping them to have a better quality of life. Right? Understanding what drives the health status and health issues, chronic health diseases in older adults. Dr. Reza Amini [00:11:09]: And the the the reason I chose gerontology was that during my research, I I learned that people with physical disability, they were experiencing accelerated aging. So, for example, we have 65 years old as the aging margin in our population in the United States. Right? So people over age of 65, they are considered older adults. That's it. Age is just a number, but at the population level, you need to have a a certain margin to categorize people, right, in order to create more policies and more services for them. But in that population with physical limitations and disabilities, they were experiencing older adults' health disorders in much younger ages, like 45 or 50 years old, so they were experiencing aging much sooner than they were expected to. So that was one of the findings of my research. So I I started to study more about aging and older adults, and that was one of the reason I enrolled in that program. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. Now you finished that program and then continued on and got a final degree, a PhD, this time in the United States at the University of North Texas. Now you already had a terminal degree. Now it's not a terminal degree in the United States, but it was a terminal degree plus another master's degree. And then you decided to take that research to the next level to be able to get that research degree from the United States. Talk to me about that. Not only moving to a a brand new continent, a new country, but deciding to move from practical work experience in the community, in a clinical setting, into a research based degree and on an academic track and why you chose a PhD? Dr. Reza Amini [00:13:19]: As you see that, at that point, I was in a transition when I said I was involved in research. I was transitioning from clinical practice to more research, and I was the director of the research section of that medical research center I just mentioned for 10 years. So and, I was doing more research. I learned that there are, again, some areas that I lacked the knowledge, and I cannot take that knowledge in the situation that I was. And those people around me, they were great people. They had wonderful experience, a great amount of knowledge, but at that point, I couldn't grow my knowledge more in that situation. So I started searching and learning more about the programs research programs in other continents in Europe and in the United States, and I was exposed to many of the scholars from many countries when I was attending conferences overseas, like in Turkey, that we call it Turkey now. So they changed the name of the country. Dr. Reza Amini [00:14:38]: So I was exposed to those scholars. We had some connections and communication after conferences, which is we was, you know, a new phase in my life because that exposure to other scholars in conferences, it expanded my vision and expanded my view into research and also the future of the research studies I wanted to do. So I got involved in those connections with other scholars, and after a while, I learned that I thought that it's time to improve again my research skills and, also get involved in some focus more on research because I was enjoying it. The results of my research, I could see that can impact so many peoples, and it was very different from clinical practice. As I said, it's very valuable to see patients 1 on 1, but with just a research project after 1 year, I could impact thousands of people's lives, and I give you an example. I was working on health needs of people with lack of visual equity and blind people who were injured in Iran Iraq war. They had no voices in the health policy and health care system and in the health care system. They were overlooked for more than 10 years, and they received no health insurance. Dr. Reza Amini [00:16:21]: They had no health coverages, but the result of my research and my my teams also, it was a team effort, Help them to be visible to policy makers. And after my research, they received comprehensive health insurance coverage for their health needs, not only themselves, but also for their family members. And it passed in the congress after my research was published. And, they started the the people, the injured people, they started to create their own society, and they started to lobby with the policy makers after that. So it was so rewarding to see how my research was helping people. So that was the the another way that I was looking as the result of my work. So because of that, that's just one example. I started thinking, I can go beyond the boundaries of Iran. Dr. Reza Amini [00:17:29]: I can do something that I can help people around the world, but there were limitations and barriers to that. And coming to the United States, having a degree, not just a degree, but getting exposure to scholars and researchers in the United States with the so many resources that are available here that are were not there in my home country in Iran could give me the opportunity to achieve that goal. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:01]: Now every person that goes into graduate education goes through transitions. You mentioned that in your country, you go right you went from high school into a doctorate degree, a medical degree. You worked for a while and then made a transition back into education to get that master's degree, and then transitioned to a new country, a new type of educational system into a different educational model, a different education degree. Talk to me about the transitions that you went through. What did you have to do as you transitioned into these programs to be able to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of each of those programs? Dr. Reza Amini [00:18:49]: There are different ways to explain that. From high school and to medical school, I I I think I touched that a little bit. It was it was very challenging situation because, as I said, coming from high school straight to a doctorate program and the the amount of work expectations, the study time, and everything was totally different, and it was very difficult. And as I said, having some supports, like mentors, advisors, and, great professors I had. They helped me to adjust myself. But hard work is the key, and so being passionate about your goal and not giving up and be resilient. So that was the key elements of my success. But in the second time, I was practicing, and I was out of school for more than 12 years. Dr....
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34914545
info_outline
Understanding the PhD Journey: A Conversation with Dr. Doug Zytko
03/17/2025
Understanding the PhD Journey: A Conversation with Dr. Doug Zytko
Graduate school is a significant commitment and a transformative journey, and no one knows this better than , an associate professor and Director of the as well as the and Masters degrees at the . In this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, Dr. Zytko shared his experiences and insights, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently undertaking graduate studies. Below, we'll explore some key takeaways from Dr. Zytko's journey and his recommendations for finding success in graduate school. The Inception: Sparking the Decision to Pursue a PhD Dr. Zytko’s path to graduate school wasn’t perfectly planned. While completing his bachelor’s degree at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, he found himself drawn to the role of professors—a profession held by both his parents. “To be a professor, I need to have a PhD,” he realized, leading him to apply for several PhD programs. Surprisingly, he faced multiple rejections, except from his alma mater, where his passion and notable GPA (3.96) caught the attention of faculty members. Early Challenges and Realizations Entering his PhD program, Dr. Zytko initially misunderstood the nature of doctoral studies. He believed his journey would be structured similarly to undergraduate education, relying heavily on others to guide his path. However, PhD programs demand a high degree of self-direction and the creation of new knowledge. “I didn’t understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda,” he reflected. Only two years in did he fully grasp the intensive, self-driven nature of the program, leading to a prolonged seven-year completion time. Preparing for Graduate School: Tips for Prospective Students Engage in Undergraduate Research: Dr. Zytko emphasized the importance of involving oneself in research during undergraduate studies. Not just for bolstering a CV, but for gaining a fundamental understanding of research processes. Clear Career Goals: Ensure you have a defined reason for pursuing graduate studies. Avoid treating grad school as a pause button or a vague stepping stone; know why you are there and let all decisions follow from that purpose. Consider the Master’s Path: If undergraduate research isn't part of your background, pursuing a master's degree before a PhD might be a more structured approach. This can provide essential research experience and a more tailored understanding of your field. Finding Success During Graduate Studies Be Comfortable with Discomfort: Graduate studies, particularly PhD programs, require a new level of time management and self-motivation. Don’t wait for others to dictate your schedule or goals. No Plan B: Dr. Zytko shared that having no alternative career path kept him focused during challenging times. This level of dedication can be crucial for success. Drawing from Experience: Reflecting on Dr. Zytko's Advice Dr. Zytko's journey underscores the need for strategic preparation and genuine passion. From learning research fundamentals early on to maintaining focused drive despite challenges, his advice is rooted in real experience. For anyone considering graduate school, Dr. Zytko's insights are invaluable. Whether you are contemplating a master's or diving straight into a PhD, understanding the journey ahead can make a substantial difference. Taking the time to gain research experience, having a clear career path, and staying committed to your goals are essential steps towards success in graduate school. And remember, it's not just about getting the degree; it's about growing intellectually and professionally to meet your greatest potential. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, each week, we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it really is that. You thinking about graduate school, being in graduate school, wherever you are in this process of getting further education, and you will go through a journey because the experience is going to be different for every person. And what's important though, is that there are things that you can do to be able to find success throughout every stage of this process. It's not always going to be easy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: There's going to be some bumps in the road, most likely. But saying that, there are ways in which you can get some tools for your own toolbox, and be able to prepare yourself as well as you can to be able to enter grad school strong, to go through grad school strong, and be able to come out on the end of the process ready to go for the next phase of your life. So every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can talk about what they went through in going to graduate school themselves, and the experience that they've had since then that can help you on the journey that you're on as well. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Doug Zitko is with us, and Doug is an associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint, but he's also the director of graduate programs for the College of Innovation and Technology, as well as working specifically with our computer science program and our human centered design master's degree program. So Doug has a lot of different experiences that have brought him to the place that he is today, and I'm really excited to have him here today. Doug, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:11]: Of course. Thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: So one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. And as you were going through and getting that bachelor's degree in information technology, at some point, at some point, you got that spark. You got that push. And you decided for yourself to go from the bachelor's degree and stepping further into getting a PhD in human computer interaction. Not every student's gonna do that. So I wanna go back to that moment, that moment that you figured out for yourself. I wanna go to that next step. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:53]: What made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school? Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:56]: Well, it wasn't a terribly thought out process. I was starting my senior year with my bachelor's degree, and I was thinking about what am I gonna do when this year is over. And no one is telling me, you need to register for these courses and do this and be at this room at that time. And I really didn't have an answer. What I concluded was that I wasn't terribly passionate about the career choices that I was learning about in my major, which was information technology. The thing that excited me the most, which I didn't expect, was the role of professor itself. You know, learning from professors in my classes who were very passionate about the material and clearly seemed to really enjoy the job, others that didn't seem to enjoy that much. And I thought, I think I might enjoy that because my family is teachers. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:03:49]: My dad was a teacher and a department chair, and my mom was a teacher as well. And I thought, well, maybe I can do this at the college level. And all I knew at that point was, okay. To be a professor, I need to have a PhD. And I started submitting applications with that being the extent of my understanding. And so not surprisingly, I got rejected by every school I applied to, except for one, which was New Jersey Institute of Technology, where I was also doing my bachelor's. Because one thing I was able to do there that I was not able to do as easily with other schools is I could just pick the brains of my professors. And so I just started to talk to them 1 by 1, voicing my interest in getting a PhD. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:04:34]: I got very different reactions to that from faculty. Some that were telling me to do anything but that, others that were very enthusiastic, some that were giving me highly detailed advice. But I talked to enough people that those in decision making roles came to learn that I was interested in a PhD. My GPA was really good at a 3.96 GPA as an undergrad. And I was fortunate enough to have a professor buy in quite literally to bringing me on directly from bachelor's into the PhD program and administrative personnel being on board with that as well. Chris, I'm sure you know, but maybe your listeners don't. You know, one of the biggest differences between PhD programs and and master's programs is PhDs are almost always fully funded positions. I've now come to learn it's quite rare for a bachelor student to go directly into PhD with that full funding commitment without ever having done research. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:05:30]: I didn't even know what the word research meant. And things like the difference between qualitative and quantitative research, I've never even heard those terms. And so I was being admitted into into a PhD program really, just on genuine passion for a very clearly articulated career goal. I wanted to be a professor, whatever that meant, and strength of GPA. So then I start my PhD. And I'll skip ahead to the end first so everything else makes sense. It took me 7 years to finish my PhD, which is quite a bit longer. I think the national average is between 4 5 years. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:00]: Yeah. So those 2 extra years came really at the start, not at the end. Because those first two years were mostly just me running around with my head on fire, trying to figure out not just how to succeed at a PhD, but learning what a PhD actually is. Like, when I was saying I didn't even know what the word research meant, I didn't understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda and conduct and complete that for a dissertation. I knew these words, dissertation. I knew these words, research, but I didn't know what they meant. And so just to give an example, when I was admitted into the program, they said, we're gonna guarantee your funding for 4 years, which I interpreted as, oh, great. A PhD is only gonna take 4 years, because I was operating with that certainty and structure of a bachelor's program and a master's program where I just take these classes. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:48]: And then once I finish those, I'm imagining gonna have a PhD, meaning I assumed other people took responsibility for the structuring and ensuring that I was hitting certain milestones at a certain time. And I remember in my 1st year as a PhD student, it was amazing because I knew just enough to learn that I was learning a lot, but I didn't know yet all of the things I should have been doing in my 1st year into my 2nd year to make sure I finished by year 5. And so the end of year year 1, I remember thinking to myself, I've learned more in this 1 year than I have in 4 years as a bachelor student, and I and I still believe that to be true today. I was learning so much because I finally knew exactly why I was there. I mean, Chris, you know, like, PhD students, they still have to take some classes, and those are mostly front loaded in the 1st couple years. And so I was still in that mindset of taking classes. But the difference between me at the PhD level and undergraduate level was I wanna be a professor. Whereas when I was an an undergraduate, it was I'm taking these classes because I'm vaguely interested in computers, and people tell me I'm good with computers, but I still really didn't know what career I was working towards and how each class fit into that. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:05]: So when I was taking my introductory classes in the PhD program, it was, oh, very clearly, I understand what I'm taking from this and what I'm taking from that. I finally started to see classes as these really valuable knowledge bases. And so I came out of that year. I I really felt like I doubled my intellect between bachelor's and that one year in the in the PhD program. And then I start my 2nd year. And then as I go into my 3rd year, it starts to dawn on me the obligations that are on me. Not on anybody else, but on me to articulate our research agenda, and I didn't know where to begin. I could read papers. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:42]: I could summarize papers. I could review papers. But in terms of articulating a research agenda, help somebody help me because I'm so used to professors in classes. You know, they assign to you projects. They give you exams. The student reacts. This is the task. I will complete it. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:09:00]: But then in the PhD program, it's, no. You need to articulate that. You need to put together the, quote, unquote, exam. And it took me a while to figure out the biggest difference between PhD and masters and undergraduate is with those first two degrees, the undergraduate and the masters, you are mastering existing knowledge. You are demonstrating, I understand the knowledge has already been created. But when you do a PhD, the sign of a completed PhD is you have created new knowledge. And that's a completely different skill set that took me probably at least 2 years just to figure out how to do it and then came the execution, which is why it took me 7 years. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:41]: So as you look back at that, because you did things, like you said, in a way that was probably a little bit longer than others, and it sounds like there was some maybe some lacking mentorship that might have been there that could have helped you along the way. But as you look back and you look at what you learned in those first two years as you were going into that 3rd year and realizing, oh, I'm behind, what would you have done differently in that 1st year in a PhD program as you were transitioning in and through to move you to the 2nd year and get you on that path toward the end goal instead of being 3 years in and still being a little bit lost. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:10:28]: Yeah. I think there's things I should've done when I was still an undergraduate when preparing to apply to PhD programs, and then I can talk also about things I should've done in the 1st year of my PhD. Because looking back, those first two years of my PhD really should have been my master's years. And instead, they were in in the PhD years. And some of your listeners might go, oh, no. I got the better end of the deal because PhD is fully funded. So I basically got a master's fully funded. I don't have a master's, but that was just you could argue that's essentially what I was doing. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:01]: But I would say, no. That's not the smart play. Because as soon as you enter a PhD program officially, you're on this clock where you have to have certain milestones then at a certain time. And so I was basically being an informal master's student while also PhD, but on a PhD student clock, which caused a lot of anxiety later on where I am now a year plus behind on certain milestones with my dissertation proposal and, of course, dissertation defense. And so I would not recommend that. What I should have been doing in my senior year as an undergraduate student or maybe even earlier, because I now see this even in my own research lab now, is getting involved with research as an undergraduate student. And because I didn't realize that was a thing that professors really encouraged. And looking back in in my 6 plus years as a professor now, my absolute best student researchers were undergraduate students, and bar none. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:56]: It's not even close. And I should have been doing that, not just to start to build up a CV of a publication record, but just to get an understanding of what does it mean to do research, and what are the the expectations? What's the skills that I have to develop? Because that would have armed me with much better knowledge of how to craft materials for applying to different schools, but also in choosing which schools to apply to. And it would have enabled me to go into a PhD program already understanding the area I wanted to do a PhD. And maybe not the exact dissertation plan was set up, but an understanding of, I'm gonna be an expert in this subfield or this subarea so that immediately I can start mastering the literature of that particular area. Because what I spent the first two years on my PhD was just understanding what part of human computer interaction do I even wanna do research in, and then what does that research even look like? Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:53]: All good points. And, you know, one of the things that I learned when I was going through my own doctorate was that the more that you can use the classes that you are taking to inform the research that you're going to be doing. And if your program allows it, to allow for you to be able to start to do some of the lit review, some of the writing, some of the chapter writing as you're going through other courses that may relate to the topic at hand, definitely can save you time. But I say, if your program allows it, because not every program will allow you to do that. So it's always important to know and to understand what the rules are for the program that you're in. One of the things that I I think that I would ask you now, as you look back, and you've kinda talked about the fact that you would have done research ahead of time. You now are the director of a PhD program in computing, and you are getting applications from individuals that are applying to the program. You get some that are that potentially do have a bachelor's degree but no master's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: You have others that have master's degree or master's degree plus experiences. In your opinion right now, if a student is getting a bachelor's degree, is it to their benefit to look to a PhD right away if that's where they see themselves in the future? Or is it better for them to do the route of the masters, getting getting more experience, and then going to the PhD? Dr. Doug Zytko [00:14:27]: Yeah. That's a that's a complicated question, and I think the answer has evolved over time. Sort of from what I've seen, not just in my own role, but from speaking to those in similar roles at other universities, is the standard of quality for an admitted PhD student has gone up dramatically. And with that, also expectations for quality of a of a completed PhD. I I've talked to some that are very esteemed senior members of the field, and they'll tell us what they completed for their dissertation wouldn't even be a third of what's expected of a PhD now. So the expectations are continually rising, not just for completing the PhD, but for admission into a program. To be honest, someone that has a bachelor's and is considering a PhD, I would probably not advise doing that unless the student already has a publication record, meaning some kind of evidence to a PhD program that I can do research successfully. Because something that I tell our prospective applicants is, you know, when you hear a PhD program is is fully funded, they see that as sometimes free money. Dr. Doug Zytko [00:15:45]: But what it really means is there is an obligation of the student to deliver on that investment. Because that's what it is. It's an investment. And so when you hear a program is fully funded like ours, what it often means is faculty are committing finite resources that they've worked very hard for through writing external grants and whatnot, And they're investing those resources into a relatively unknown student with their fingers crossed that that student's gonna...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34914275
info_outline
Achieving Excellence in Grad School: Tips from Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer
03/10/2025
Achieving Excellence in Grad School: Tips from Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer
Graduate school is a unique and deeply transformative journey. As outlines in this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, every student travels their own path toward advanced degrees, facing distinct challenges and triumphs along the way. This episode features , an Associate Professor and Director of the program at the 's , who shares his insightful experiences and suggestions for finding success in graduate school. Finding Your True Passion The Decision to Pursue a Master's Degree When Dr. Mkaouer completed his bachelor’s degree at the Universite de Tunis, he was at a crossroads. Instead of jumping straight into the professional world, he chose to pursue a master’s degree. As he reflects, finding a career that you genuinely enjoy is crucial. At that point, he didn't know exactly what he wanted to do, so he decided to continue his education to gather more experience and skills, which would later guide him in making more informed career choices. Emphasizing Research and Continuous Learning A recurring theme in Dr. Mkaouer’s journey was his interest in research. As he transitioned from his master’s to his PhD, he found a passion for research, particularly in software engineering. His thirst for knowledge and his desire to solve complex problems led him to further his education in the United States, where he continued his studies at the Missouri University of Science and Technology and later, the University of Michigan Dearborn. For students contemplating this path, Dr. Mkaouer insists on the importance of diving deep into research areas that ignite your curiosity and passion. Charting a Course in PhD Studies The Role of Mentorship One of the significant points Dr. Mkaouer discusses is the importance of a solid mentor-mentee relationship during PhD studies. When his advisor moved to another institution, Dr. Mkaouer chose to follow. He stresses that an academic advisor's vision should align with your own, serving as a consistent support system throughout the demanding PhD journey. Navigating Obstacles PhD studies are ripe with challenges—from rigorous academic requirements to unexpected changes, like a mentor leaving. Dr. Mkaouer advises students to be adaptable and remain focused on their long-term goals. He also emphasizes the significance of building a robust support network of like-minded peers who can provide both technical and emotional support. Preparing for Professional Success Beyond Grades: Developing Skills Dr. Mkaouer emphasizes that the goal of a graduate degree is not simply to get good grades but to develop a unique skill set that separates you from others in a competitive job market. He recalls his struggles and eventual success with mastering algorithms, a crucial skill for his career. His consistent effort and extra work beyond the standard curriculum were what truly set him apart. Utilizing Resources and Mentorship Graduate programs offer numerous resources and mentorship opportunities, which students should fully utilize. Dr. Mkaouer mentions that many students are unaware of the extensive support available to them. He advises attending seminars, engaging with faculty, and seeking out additional learning materials to supplement formal coursework. Dr. Mkaouer’s experiences illustrate that the journey through graduate school is multifaceted—marked by continuous learning, adaptability, and a relentless pursuit of passion. By finding your true interests, leveraging mentorship, and developing unique skills, you can navigate the complexities of graduate education and set yourself up for a successful professional career. If you're considering this path, remember that each step, no matter how challenging, is a building block toward your dreams. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because you are on a journey toward graduate school right now. You could be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about what is graduate school and do I really wanna do this and what type of program am I interested in? Or you could be at a point where you've already applied and now you're starting to figure out, did you get accepted? If you got accepted, what programs did you get accepted to and where might you want to attend? Or maybe you're in a program and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you're starting to plan for your future beyond graduate school, no matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do along the way that will help you to find success. And you can find that success sooner. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: So every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can share their own journey. Not only their journey through their education, but their journey through their profession that they can then reflect back on to provide you with some some tips, some tools that you can add to your own toolbox and help you to be successful in the end. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor Mohamed Mkaouer is with us today. And doctor Makaur is a associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint in the College of Innovation and Technology, and I am really excited to be able to talk to him about his own journey coming to the United States after getting his bachelor's and master's from the Universite de Tunis to going to the to the universe the Missouri University of Science and Technology and then to the University of Michigan Dearborn to get his PhD in computer software engineering. So I'm really excited to be able to talk to him and learn more from him today and allow for you to learn from him as well. Mohamed, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:02:24]: Of course. It's my pleasure, Christopher. So when I heard about your podcast and I heard that this is an opportunity for me to really help students, of course, me being a professor working with students every day and also being a director of software engineering and artificial intelligence here at Intelligence here at the University of Michigan Flint, I cannot miss an opportunity for me to help students with any means possible, including understanding what they expect, what they can see, maybe hopefully inspire them, hopefully answer some of their questions, things that they may not realize. They're important, but they are. And me sharing my experience as a student, then perhaps a faculty or a profession, and how and how my experience as a, you know, my grad student studies have shaped my profession right now. I think it's something that I wanna share with everyone. And hopefully, it will be helping helpful to anyone who's listening. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:10]: So one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate and master's degree work at the Universite de Tunis. And at some point during that undergraduate degree, you decided to continue on into the master's. So can you bring me that back initially to that point? What made you decide initially that you wanted to continue on after the bachelor's in your home country at your university to continue on for the that additional 2 years to get that master's degree? Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:03:40]: Well, the answer is going to be interesting because it will lead me to my first maybe tip, right? Which is perhaps I'll start with that is, you really need to find something that you truly enjoy. Okay? That's, I think, my number one, if not 0, advice that I would give to anyone is to really understand what is your vision, what do you dream about. Because all of us, we have something we dream about, Whether and it's a dream because you don't even consciously do it. It's just a dream that comes to you, and then you start developing that in the back of your mind, and then you decide that you wanna do this. So we all have things we dream about, and one of the things I would truly advise is for you to find that vision, that dream job, that career that you wanna build. Figure that out first, and build then a path towards that career. And maybe to answer your question now, Christopher, the reason why I moved from bachelor's to master's is because I did not know back then what exactly I wanted to do. So I was somehow postponing that decision and maybe gathering more experience and more skills and more knowledge that can maybe help me, you know, shape that direction. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:43]: So so back then, I was also a major. I was I had, like, a full GPA, honors student, so I was really doing great in school. So I was able to get a lot of job offers from industry, which I joined industry back then, but I was not fully convinced that this is what I picture myself doing from the rest of my career. So I decided to also do grad school to keep that to buy myself some time and try to see whether this new experience will help me figure out what I wanted to do next. Right? And obviously, that did not also work out because I decided to go for a PhD. Right? And during that time, what also made me decide to do PhD is because I realized that I'm really enjoying doing this. Because as you know, when you move to a grad school, you have you add that component of research, which I found really to be very interesting. So I decided to do maybe to do more of that and buy myself actually more time to know what I wanna do next. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:05:30]: And that's what brought me to the US, you know, to to continue my PhD studies and started in Missouri, like you mentioned. And then I moved to University of Michigan Dearborn, which was an extraordinary experience, you know, being in the system, and that's why I'm back here. So, yeah, during also that time, I realized that I'm really enjoying research, and I realized that this is something I wanna do for the rest of my career because after taking more steps towards it, I realized this is exactly what I want to do next, and I started developing the skill set for it. And even during that time, you would still not necessarily figure out all the different details. For instance, I was wondering whether I should do a research career in academia or industry, which is a typical question that a lot of students also get at their grad school. Am I fit for research? Should I go for academia or industry? And maybe my next advice is to try a little bit of both. It wouldn't hurt for you to try to test the waters. So you can try a little bit of both and see where you really see yourself fitting. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:06:22]: So what I did back then is I I started teaching courses at University of Michigan Dearborn while I'm still a student. You know, like, you know, so you can also as a student, you can also apply for greater opportunities. You know, try to see how the academic life looks like. Right? Try to be in the classroom, you know, so you can be a a teaching assistant, etcetera. So I started doing a little bit of that to have to see how that looks like and whether I enjoy doing that. Also, during the summer, I started to go for internships. I did some internships here in Detroit, down in Detroit, to see whether also I see myself feeling better in industry. And after spending some time in both, being a teaching assistant at the University of Michigan Dearborn and also doing some internships throughout the way, I realized that I enjoy really investing on people. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:07:04]: That was my real passion, and I realized that I'm going to continue for academia because this is what I saw myself being really happy. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]: So I wanna go back to that jump from being in Tunisia to coming to the United States. And as you made that decision to continue your education, as you mentioned, to get the PhD, as many students do, as they're identifying that next opportunity, they have to do some research. They have to figure out for themselves, what am I looking for? What type of program? What's the best fit? So you ended up initially going to Missouri University of Science and Technology for a doctorate of philosophy in computer software engineering. Talk to me about bring me back to that point where you had that inkling that you wanted to go further and that research then that you went through to be able to identify that program as the right program. Now I know that that's not where you ended your degree. But what made you initially choose not only to go to Missouri University of Science and Technology, but also to choose the PhD in computer software engineering versus some other area? Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:08:15]: Well, it that decision first of all, I wanna give it since you you brought that back in that time, I was always looking for a major that that would strengthen my skills in different domains. This is how I thought I should be doing. So if you look at my first bachelor, I was specialized in what we called the e learning back then. It was computer science, but I was specialized in e learning. Then I wanted to try something slightly different or entirely different, so I did master's with distributed systems. So my thesis was around distributed systems and cloud computing. And then I realized that through my experience and industrial experience back then too, that what I really truly enjoy or triggered my curiosity in research was something with software. And that's how I get to know software engineering, and that's how I get to start looking for people who can give me more insights about how their that research is going to, to be looking like. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:05]: And that's when I met my academic adviser, and that's how I was able to see that the research in software engineering in particular has a lot of impact into industry. It actually helps developers be more productive. It helps the whole life cycle of software become more efficient, which will save us 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars combating errors and anomalies and vulnerabilities that we are living in right now in our infrastructure. Because obviously, that is actually, one of the biggest expenses we have in our economy is actually bugs, software bugs. It's still happening as we speak. Over $3,000,000,000 a year. That's an astronomical number. That's a big number. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:42]: So I realize that me helping people through that is something I'm interested in. So showing the impact of that research on people's lives is what made me realize that this is what I want to do for the rest of of my career. And I'm happy to see that to say that I'm doing this in multiple dimensions. 1 is research. You know, when I work in ways to improve the soft the qualities of the software. That's me helping a lot of companies such as Xerox, Microsoft right now, JetBrains Research, helping them build better frameworks for millions of people. That's through my research. Also through my teaching here at the University of Michigan Flint, I'm teaching right now as we speak a course called Software Testing and Quality Assurance. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:10:25]: So I was able to exercise my research into the classroom and help students write better code and learn how to test their own code, which hopefully will reduce and minimize the number of errors once they once they graduate and go to industry. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:38]: Now I know that sometimes when you go into a graduate program, it's smooth sailing, not many bumps in the road. Other times, things can happen, and you have to go with the flow. And you have to do some pivoting and some kind of go around the a curve that you might not have expected. And I'm gonna venture, I guess, to say that going from one institution to the next was probably not in your mind when you first went in, but that there was a little bit of a pivot there. And sometimes that happens at a PhD level, that you have a specific individual that you're working with, a faculty member that you're working with, and that person leaves, but they're still your mentor, you're the person that you're working with on your research. So we've never really talked about this on the show, but can you talk a little bit about that journey for you, going from one institution to a next as a PhD student? Because for some PhD students, this will happen, and it could derail their process if they're not aware of it. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:11:42]: That is correct. So this is going to be now specifically to PhD students. Right? So I think a lot of situations where you'll because a PhD study is typically, you know, a study would just go between 4 to 6 years long, so there is always a chance of you being mentored by a supervisor who might leave the institution. Because of how long that program is, there is a stronger chance or a stronger probability that you will end up having the situation compared to, for example, a master's student. Right? So for PhD students, yes, there is a chance, there is always a chance that your supervisor or your academic advisor or thesis advisor, depending on how you call it, will actually leave the institute. And now you have the choice somehow to either stay in your institute and find another advisor, which probably means you have to switch your research altogether to something different, or you got the chance to move with your advisor and continue that line of research. So to me, it was the situation, and it was also happening right when I started. So it was in the end of 1st year. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:12:39]: So I wasn't really too much committed into my research back then, like in terms of, for example, publications, etcetera, which made the situation easy for me to make a decision whether to stay or to move. Right? But of course, because I was so convinced into the research I'm doing, I was so into it, and I was also in very good terms with my advisor, which I believe this is a key to success. When you are looking for a PhD opportunity, get comfortable with your PhD advisor because that relationship is stronger than just a master advisor for instance, which is a short term relationship. But for a PhD, it's the apprentice. This is what they call, you know, the apprentice model. So you need to really be in the same page, the same vision of your adviser so that you can actually flourish together. And that's exactly the reason why I decided to move my adviser. And I told him back then when when he proposed it, do you wanna move me? I said, I will go with the moon with you if you're moving. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:13:27]: I don't care where you go. I'm just gonna be with you as long as we keep this research vision. And that's because I was able to achieve my first tip, which is knowing exactly what I want. You know? So that's when now you know how to do it and how you can navigate the different obstacles that you will get throughout the way. Because a PhD journey in particular has a lot of bumps. This is how it is. You know? My father always says, if you're doing something that tends to be easy, maybe you're doing the wrong thing. So so PhD was totally worth it, but it's also it was a difficult journey because of how, you know, elitist it is in in by nature. Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:01]: Right? You are competing with people who are really world class researchers, People who are, you know, they develop and devote their life and their career for the greater good. So you are competing with this level of excellent researchers. So to be one of them, it...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34913965
info_outline
Graduate School Success: Insights from Nurse Anesthetist Grant Voisinet
03/03/2025
Graduate School Success: Insights from Nurse Anesthetist Grant Voisinet
Embarking on a journey through graduate school is transformative. For many students, it's a leap that demands resilience, curiosity, and unwavering determination. In this week's episode of Victors in Grad School we sat down with , a graduate of the program at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss his path to becoming a nurse anesthetist. Grant shared invaluable insights and reflections on his journey from undergraduate education to becoming a full-fledged CRNA (Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist) and educator. The Initial Decision to Pursue Graduate Education Grant Voisinet knew from early on in his nursing career that he wanted to further his education. His initial plan was to become a nurse practitioner, but exposure to the role of nurse anesthetists in the ICU where he worked changed his career trajectory. "Seeing what CRNAs did and the level of respect they commanded in the operating room piqued my interest," Grant recounted. It was through shadowing these professionals and discussing the field with an anesthesiologist that his passion for anesthesia solidified. Choosing the Right Program: Why U of M Flint? Selecting the right graduate program is a critical step. Grant chose the University of Michigan Flint for several reasons. He appreciated the program's well-structured progression—starting with heavy didactic coursework and gradually increasing clinical exposure. Furthermore, the university’s prestigious reputation and the supportive faculty played a significant role in his decision. As Grant put it, “The progression of U of M’s program and the supportive faculty made it stand out.” Transitioning Back to Education Returning to academia after working in the field requires significant adjustment. For Grant, preparing for the GRE and CCRN exams before applying to the DNAP program helped ease this transition. Once in the program, he experimented with various study techniques to find what worked best for him. “I tried four or five study techniques before finding the most efficient one,” Grant shared. His approach had to adapt further as he transitioned from didactic learning to hands-on clinical placements. Moving from Student to Educator After graduating, Grant’s commitment to education didn’t stop. He began teaching at U of M Flint while continuing to practice clinically. His drive to educate the next generation of nurse anesthetists stems from his own positive experiences and the desire to give back. As an instructor who also works in the OR, he brings real-world experience to his students. “I wanted to help shape the minds of the new CRNAs and ensure they provide the best care possible,” he said. Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students Grant offers prospective graduate students several pieces of advice: Expect Challenges: Graduate school is demanding, but maintaining focus on end goals is crucial. Ask Questions: Engaging with faculty and peers through questions enhances understanding and retention. Build Connections: Developing a support network among classmates is invaluable for sharing knowledge and experiences. Grant Voisinet's journey exemplifies the dedication and adaptability required to succeed in graduate school and professional practice. His story underscores the importance of selecting the right program, finding effective study habits, and maintaining a balance between professional practice and education. As Dr. Lewis highlighted, having mentors like Grant who understand and guide students through their academic and professional pathways is essential for success. For those considering a similar path, Grant’s experiences provide a roadmap that blends perseverance, continuous learning, and a passion for teaching. For more information on graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit . TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, we are on a journey together, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Whether you are at the very beginning and just starting to think about, do I want to do this grand school thing? Or maybe you've applied and gotten accepted. Maybe you are in graduate school working toward that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, there is a continuum. There is a there is a journey that you're on that you're going to be going through from the very beginning to the very end. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: And there are things that you can do to be able to find success sooner. And those are not always things that you might know about. And it's so it's important to be able to take the time to learn, to be willing to listen, and to grow from individuals that have gone before you, that have been able to figure out for themselves what did it take for them to be successful. Because what they can do is then share that with you to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to find that success. And that's what this show is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have gone to graduate school, have been successful in graduate school, have come out on the other side, and have been successful, and they are sharing that success with you. Today, we got another great guest with us. Grant Voisonette is with us, and Grant is a graduate of the doctorate of nurse anesthetist program at the University of Michigan Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: He did his undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University and went on to get that degree at the University of Michigan Flint. We'll talk about that and get to know him a little bit better in that regard. Grant, thanks so much for being here today. Grant Voisinet [00:02:10]: Yes. Thanks for having me, Chris. I'm excited to talk to everybody about, about my journey and, what it took for me to get to where I am now. So thanks for having me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: I'm really excited to be able to have you here today. And, the, the first thing that I love doing in these opportunities to talk with people about their experiences is to turn the clock back in time. So I'm gonna go back to that moment that you made that that switch. And I know you you did your undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University. You graduated, went off into the workforce, got some experience, because that's kind of what you have to do to become a nurse anesthesist. Grant Voisinet [00:02:45]: You got to have some nursing experience to be able to do that. But you got that experience. But at some point in those first few years of being a nurse and being out in the field, you made a choice. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education, and you made a decision to continue it and to work toward becoming a nurse anesthetist. Bring me back to that point. What made you make that decision of going to graduate school? Grant Voisinet [00:03:13]: Well, I kind of always knew I wanted to go back and get a further degree other than nursing. I enjoy helping people, and I enjoy being at the bedside. Originally, I wanna go back and be a nurse practitioner. I thought that that's the path that that I wanted to be. When I first got my job in the ICU outside of school, I worked with very sick patients, and I would get patients back from the operating room and nurse anesthetists would bring them to me. And the first couple of times, I didn't really know honestly what nurse anesthesia was. And then I started probing the CRNA that would bring patients back to me and ask them, like, what their job entailed and and they'd explain it to me. And once I saw all that they did, and when they walked into the ICU and commanded the room and everyone respected them, I was like, yeah, that's something that I wanna do. Grant Voisinet [00:04:02]: I wanna be able to still work at the bedside in this capacity with sick patients and to have my advanced degree. So that was really exciting to me. And so I started seeking out opportunities to shadow, CRNAs in in the actual operating room. 1 of my dad's friends happened to be an anesthesiologist, and so I chatted with him a couple of times to see what anesthesia was, And I fell in love with it. So that's kind of what pushed me in the CRNA direction versus the the nurse practitioner direction. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: And you chose to attend the University of Michigan, Flint. So talk to me about that, because there are other c n r CRNA programs that you could have chosen, whether it be in the state of Michigan or beyond. So I'm sure that you went through some process to be able to take a look at the different programs to try to figure out which would be the right one for you. And how did you choose U of M Flint as the place for you? Grant Voisinet [00:05:03]: So when I first started looking, I there's 5 programs in in the state of Michigan. They're all phenomenal programs. I worked 2 ICU jobs. One was at Mid Michigan and one of my coworkers had just gotten into U of M's program. And I she worked a little bit the 1st semester that she was in still in the ICU. And so I talked to her about the program and she discussed with me the setup of the program, the faculty, the clinical sites that they rotated to, and all what she said kind of checked the boxes for me. And it helps that to University of Michigan program and University of Michigan is a phenomenal school. And so all of those kind of combined that I obviously then did my research on the other schools, and I liked how you have influenced program was set up. Grant Voisinet [00:05:50]: A lot of didactic at the beginning, like a lot of your science classes, your core class you need to know before going to the operating room, and then it eases you in to clinical in the ORs 2 days a week and then full time. And I really liked the progression of the program that U of M has to offer. And then once I was in the program, I realized that, yes, how the program is set up is fantastic. The faculty were amazing. They're supportive, always willing to help and make sure not only didactically and clinically we are succeeding, but also our mental health, especially I went during COVID, our mental health during all that was in check-in and doing well as well because in order for us to succeed, at least for me, mental health is a big deal. And the faculty here in the DNAP program at U of M Flint is second to none. They are really phenomenal. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: Now every student that goes through the graduate program has to make a transition. So you you went and you made a transition from both undergrad to workforce and worked for a number of years. So then you had to come back to education. You make that transition from the workforce to education. And the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student is not the same as the way in which you're taught as a graduate student. There's a transition there as well. So talk to me about transitions. And what did you have to do to find success as you transitioned into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through the entirety of the program? Grant Voisinet [00:07:28]: So for me, my whole life, I've had a strong foundation for scholastics. I worked hard in high school, I worked hard in undergrad as many people that are in this program or all the people that are in this program do, and in order to continue into the program, it's changed a little bit now, but we had to take the GRE was a test that we had to take and get a score on, and submit it to the program. Now there's another exam, it's called the CCRN, that nurses take to show their knowledge within the ICU or critical care area. And so before I got into school, I did all of these exams and studied for these these tests, which kind of kept me grounded in the studying aspect a little bit. So when I got into the program and started that 1st semester, I kind of already had started transitioning back into studying while I was preparing to to apply to the program, with those other exams. So that was beneficial. Other than that, I just kind of had to relearn different study habits for the amount of material that I learned. So instead of just having to study for this GRE or the CCRN, I had 5 different didactic classes of different areas of knowledge that I had to learn. Grant Voisinet [00:08:37]: And so the 1st semester, I think I went through 4 or 5 different study techniques to see which worked best for me. And then I finally found what was the most time efficient and beneficial for me, and I kind of stuck with that throughout the remainder of the program. As it progressed, didactic kind of decreased and clinical increased. And so when that happened, my mindset had to switch again. I had to go from, oh, how do I study for this exam to how do I prepare for this huge cranny that I have the next day? Or how do I prepare for my open heart rotation? And so then I had to reassess how to learn or prepare for that aspect. And then finally, at the end, we have to take a big certification or licensing exam to get our license, and then I had to kind of revert back to how I studied didactically at the beginning of the program. So it's kind of jumping back and forth throughout. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:28]: Now you graduated. You got out into the workforce. You're using that degree now, and you're also teaching in the program. So you've come back and now you're teaching and you're working with other students. Talk to me about that transition for yourself and what made you decide to not only go out and use the degree in a practical sense of working in the hospitals, but now coming back to educate other students. Grant Voisinet [00:09:55]: So even when I was in nursing, as a nurse at the bedside, I always had this desire to teach students. I liked having student nurses or orienting them essentially, and I knew I wanted to teach in some aspect. So when I started anesthesia school, the professors that we had, Doctor. Wahl, Jeffrey and Koviak, they still worked clinically at the bedside while also teaching full time the program. And I really liked that aspect of it, and I liked how they could have the best of both worlds essentially. So I graduated, I started working at McLaren, and I got students pretty quickly after I graduated, coming to clinical. And so I would be the preceptor at at the hospital for the cases. And I really loved watching this 1st semester clinical student come in and get their 1st intubation ever, the excitement, the real on their face, the relief on their face. Grant Voisinet [00:10:49]: And then I also enjoyed having a student that was struggling doing this, me walking them through different techniques that I do to be able to get a difficult intubation, and then the next one they get and they nail. And again, the excitement that they finally got this task that they were trying to do. And so seeing that in these students that I would get in in the clinical setting made me kinda think about, oh, maybe I wanna teach too. Maybe I wanna do the do both things like my faculty did. And so then I had a class in the winter of last year as a Leo, and so I taught one class. And then in the spring summer, I taught 2 classes and then a position opened and I applied and I got in. And since then I've been teaching full time there and I went down to once a week to once a month at McLaren working clinically, and so I can still do the anesthesia that I really love to do, but I can also help shape the minds of the new that are coming in and make sure that they are prepared to to give the best care possible to the patients that they take care of. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: So now as you think back to the education that you got in the program, and as you look back at the education that you got and you think about the journey that you went on as a graduate student yourself, as you look at the students that you're interacting with now as a faculty member and the interactions that you've had with them, and you think about students just in general that are going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer those students that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Grant Voisinet [00:12:20]: I think the most important thing is they need to know that it's going to be challenging. It's going to be hard. And just to kind of get their mindset, and on some days, this is gonna suck. It's not gonna be fun, but kind of just look at the end goal and what they wanna do and how they wanna progress their lives. Don't be afraid to ask questions. I know as a student, I asked questions all the time. I wanted to make sure I understood what they were teaching me so I could keep my patient safe and so I could understand it, so I could teach it to somebody else one day. And asking questions, it's always gonna be beneficial. Grant Voisinet [00:12:55]: It's gonna make you think about why the answer is what it is or isn't what you thought it was. And so I think asking questions is the best piece of advice I can give. Along with that, if you're in the program, when you're going to a program, make connections with your classmates. Having that connection, honestly, when I was in school helped so much, maybe because it was COVID, but I was able to lean on them. When there was a hard case that I did, I could message them, and I could say, Hey, this was a kind of a crummy day at clinical. What would you do different? How could I improve for the next day? And they, we would talk about what happened. We would talk about difficult assignments and things like that. And just having that support system of people that are actually going through what you're going through was also very beneficial to me. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: Well, Grant, I just wanna say thank you. Thank for thank you for the the information that you shared today, for the sharing the journey that you went through, but also the work that you're doing to be able to educate additional students and helping other students through this process, through this journey that they're on. Because it can be challenging, as you said, and sometimes it can be hard. And having those mentors and those individuals there that understand the experience that they're going through and are there to shepherd and guide them through that is so critical. So I truly appreciate the work that you're doing and what you've shared today, and I wish you the best. Grant Voisinet [00:14:13]: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate you having me, and I I look forward to chitchatting with you again about this maybe one day. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at .
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34913330
info_outline
From Nursing to Academia: Dr. Denise Cooper's Educational Journey
02/24/2025
From Nursing to Academia: Dr. Denise Cooper's Educational Journey
Navigating graduate school while balancing life, work, and personal aspirations is no easy feat. Yet for , Program Director for the program at the , it’s a path laden with challenges, rewards, and invaluable lessons. In this week's Victors in Grad School, Dr. Cooper shared her journey and provided insights for those considering or currently navigating the rigors of graduate education. From Undergraduate to Advanced Practice Nursing Dr. Cooper’s journey began as an undergraduate at the University of Michigan Flint, where she initially set her sights on becoming a nurse anesthetist. Despite her passion and preparation, shadowing professionals in the field revealed that her aspirations didn’t align with the realities of the role. She realized she yearned for deeper patient interactions, a value she felt would be better fulfilled by becoming a nurse practitioner. “After shadowing, I’m so glad I did that because I decided that that definitely was not what I wanted to do,” Cooper shared. This pivotal moment highlighted the importance of real-world experiences in solidifying career decisions. The Leap to Doctoral Education After obtaining her Master’s degree in Nursing, Dr. Cooper could have easily settled into her role as a practicing Nurse Practitioner. However, her commitment to education and teaching led her to pursue a terminal degree. “The longer I was a nurse practitioner practicing, and I was also teaching, I started talking to some of the other faculty, and then the former director at the time encouraged me to go back,” explained Cooper. Her decision was fueled by a desire to grow both as an educator and a practitioner, and to enhance her capacity to contribute to her field. Balancing Act: Life, Work, and Education Dr. Cooper’s educational journey was marked by significant life events. “Like many nurses, I was a mother, married, had family that I was tending to, trying to be the career nurse, also career as a student, managing the family,” she noted. Notably, she had all her children while in grad school, a tremendous challenge she does not recommend frivolously. The key to her success? “Perseverance and the willingness to pivot when needed.” Her journey emphasizes that determination and adaptability are crucial to overcoming the myriad of obstacles that graduate students often face. Preparing for a Role in Academia and Administration Transitioning into a full-time faculty role and eventually into administration, Dr. Cooper distills her growth into one word: exposure. Engaging with diverse colleagues, participating in committees, teaching varying courses, and attending conferences broadened her perspective and honed her problem-solving skills. “Nursing is a lot of problem solving…there’s a lot of problem solving that goes on,” Dr. Cooper reflected. Embracing the philosophy that “everything is figureoutable” has been instrumental in her professional and personal growth. Offering Advice to Aspiring Graduate Students To those embarking on a similar journey, Dr. Cooper advises a commitment to the process. “You have to really want it … be committed to gaining this degree and being a professional… there will be sacrifices to your family, and you have to go in understanding that.” This commitment, combined with the understanding that faculty are dedicated to their success, forms the bedrock of a graduate student’s journey. Dr. Denise Cooper’s story is one of resilience, adaptability, and unwavering commitment. It serves as a testament and guide for current and prospective graduate students who aspire to navigate their own challenging yet rewarding paths in higher education. With the right mindset and support system, success in graduate school—and beyond—is within reach. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we are on a journey together. Whether you are at the very beginning just starting to think about, do I want to go back to school? Do I wanna continue my education? Or maybe you've already applied and got accepted. Or or maybe you're in graduate school, and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel getting ready to graduate and head off into your new career area. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And this show is here to be able to help you, to provide you with opportunities to learn, to grow, to gain some tools for your toolbox, and allow for you to be able to gain some perspective about things that you can do to find success sooner. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that are able to share their own journey and what they learned in that journey to be able to help you on the journey that you're gonna be going on. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor Denise Cooper is with us today. And Denise is the program director for our doctorate of nursing practitioner program, the DNP program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint and then went on to get both a master's and doctorate degree from the University of Michigan. Really excited to have her here for her to share her journey. Denise, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Denise Cooper [00:01:42]: Thank you. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Really excited to have you here today and to talk to you further about your own journey. And for one of the things that I love to do at the very beginning is turn the clock back in time. So I would love to be able to go back. And I know, like I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. And at some point during that journey, during your early career, you you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to go back, continue your education, and get a further degree. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide to move on to get that master's degree? Dr. Denise Cooper [00:02:22]: Well, I have to say that I kinda knew all along. So I didn't know all along that I wanted to be a nurse, but when I decided I wanted to be a nurse, I also decided that I wanted to be a nurse anesthetist. So my plan was to get my nursing degree and to work in a critical care area and to apply to anesthesia school at the University of Michigan Flint. After I became a nurse, I worked in the ICU, CCU area, which I absolutely loved. And while I was doing that, I decided that I was going to shadow some c r n a's that were at the hospital that I was working at. So I did end up shadowing 2 of them. And after shadowing, I'm so glad I did that because I decided that that definitely was not what I wanted to do, so that was quite a surprise to me. However, I did know that I wanted to advance my education, and so I determined that nurse practitioner would be the best option for me. Dr. Denise Cooper [00:03:16]: I really like the interaction with patients, And for me, that was really important, and I didn't think I was going to get that level of interaction as a CRNA, and but I knew I would get that as a nurse practitioner. I love helping people, and I just knew that I could help people at a higher level. And so that's what really brought me to University of Michigan in Ann Arbor to pursue my nurse practitioner master's degree. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:41]: Now you went on from there though, and you decided you got that that nurse practitioner degree. You could have stopped there. You could have said, I'm done. I'm just gonna go use this NP degree and go and practice and help people in different ways. But you made the choice to continue on and to get the DNP, the doctorate of nurse practitioner degree, the terminal degree for a nurse outside of the PhD in nursing. So talk to me about that, and what made you decide to push beyond the MSN? Dr. Denise Cooper [00:04:10]: So I didn't think I was gonna get my doctorate. I thought I was gonna stop at my masters. But the longer I was a nurse practitioner practicing, and I was also teaching, I started teaching at the University of Michigan Flint School of Nursing, and I started teaching in the undergraduate program. The more and more I was teaching in the undergraduate program, I moved into the graduate program as an just an adjunct faculty, and I was working as a nurse practitioner. I'm like, okay. I really like this. And I started talking to some of the other faculty, and then the former director at the time encouraged me to go back. And, so the more I researched the different terminal degrees, a PhD versus a DNP, I decided that a a practice degree was the area that I really wanted to pursue. Dr. Denise Cooper [00:04:51]: And it that it was I knew it was a terminal degree. I knew it was the right thing to do, and I knew that if if I wanted to work as a faculty member that I really needed to pursue completing my education, if you will, with that terminal degree. So I ended up going back to Ann Arbor and doing the MSN to DNP. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:08]: Now with every degree that a student goes through, there are transitions. So you had a transition from being a undergraduate student at the University of Michigan Flint, you transitioned into work, you transitioned from work, you back into the MSN, you you worked for a bit as an NP, You so you transitioned back into work, and then you transitioned back again and got that terminal degree. And you may have been doing some work while you were doing school too as as a part of that as well. So talk to me about well, as you think about all of those transitions, especially the transitions into different types of educational models, different schools, different programs, different expectations, what did you have to do as you transitioned into those different educational models and to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire educational journey at each level? Dr. Denise Cooper [00:06:04]: There was a lot to maintaining it. So like many nurses, I was a mother, married, had family that I was tending to, trying to be the career nurse, also career as a student, managing the family, and just trying to make those decisions about what was the right thing to do. I will tell you that I had all of my children while I was in grad school, which, by the way, I don't recommend that to anyone, while I was getting my master's degree. So I've learned a lot along the way about what to do and what not to do. I made it work. It took me a little longer to get that master's, and I'm glad that I stuck with it and that I I stretched it out, but, you know, I kinda had to pivot. I had to to do things differently than I had planned, but it all worked out. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:48]: I appreciate you sharing that because it's it's definitely not always easy. And there's a lot there's bumps in the road. There's things that you have to overcome. And it's not always going to be smooth sailing. There are definitely going to be challenges. And sometimes the challenges are easy to overcome. Sometimes they are more much more difficult to overcome. But the perseverance piece is so important to be able to keep pushing through and to find those supports along the way. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:14]: Now I know that you have transitioned into being a full time faculty member, a administrator now in the program, the graduate program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I guess as you think back now to all of the different education that you had that led you to where you are today, and you think back to the the things that you learned and the programs that you went through, what are some of the things that you feel prepared you best for the work that you do on a daily basis? Dr. Denise Cooper [00:07:46]: Well, you know, time is one thing. The the longer you hear, the more you learn, the more you involve yourself with. Right? Being on committees, involvement with the community, teaching different classes at different levels, encountering lots of different students. We have a really diverse faculty here, so just learning from all of them. I think each of those things helped me grow. So and and just exposing myself to people outside of the university, attending conferences and presenting at conferences, partnering with faculty at other universities for publications and research studies. Just all of those things really just helped me grow into the position that I'm in now. I wouldn't say I ever saw myself in management position. Dr. Denise Cooper [00:08:30]: I just always saw myself in a nurse or nurse practitioner position where I was helping people, but what I have found is I actually I help lots of people in this position too. Nursing is a lot of problem solving, and this position, whether it's faculty teaching a course or whether it's a director, there's a lot of problem solving that goes on. So I think my experience, many years of experience, has positioned me well to be able to problem solve and figure things out. One of my colleagues has a plaque on her desk that I absolutely love, and it says everything is figureoutable. And that's my motto, is everything is figureoutable. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:08]: Now I know that you work with a lot of graduate students of that you've worked with a lot of graduate students over the years, and you have had your own experience that has helped you to not only teach, but also to mentor and to help students along the way. As you think about students that you're seeing in your program right now, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see those graduate students running into? And what type of advice might you offer to them that would help them to be able to overcome those issues? Dr. Denise Cooper [00:09:39]: I would say grad students run into a variety of of issues, but I would say probably the biggest thing is that we're post licensure. Right? So we have nurses, and nurses are most of them are working, and a lot of them have families. And so unlike some other grad programs where students don't work, In our program, the students are working, and I would say that that way, the biggest thing that they encounter is time, a lack thereof. Grad school is heavy. It's not easy. It's doable, but it's not easy. And it does take a big time commitment, and there's a lot of sacrifices. I I always tell my students that there's you will make sacrifices. Dr. Denise Cooper [00:10:24]: There will be sacrifices to your family, and you have to go in understanding that and, you know, being committed to that. Students work a lot. They manage, lots of things within their families. Sometimes they carry the health insurance. And so we're very aware of a lot of the issues that our students encounter. And we do the best we can to have the curriculum designed to be able to help them through that, but they have to be committed and remain resilient and committed to the process. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:52]: Well, Denise, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for the advice that you've offered to students. This has been great. And, you know, as you think about success and students, whether they are in your program, whether they're in another they're going toward another graduate degree, are there any other pieces of advice you'd want to give to all graduate students? Dr. Denise Cooper [00:11:14]: I would say that, I guess, kind of I'm gonna go back to the commitment piece. You have to really want it. I want my students in my class, they have to want it more than I want it. So I want to make sure that they know that they're in the right place and that they're committed to gaining this degree and being a professional as a nurse practitioner or whatever graduate degree they're getting, physical therapist, physician's assistant, whatever it is, that that's their vision and that they're committed to that vision and also that they know that as faculty that we've all been there and we're committed to their success. We actually really care. We're not just here for a job. This isn't just a job to us. We are committed to their success. Dr. Denise Cooper [00:11:59]: Their success is our success. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:01]: Well, as mentioned, Denise, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and for the work that you are doing with your students to be able to help them to be successful in the programs that they're in, and I truly wish you all the best. Dr. Denise Cooper [00:12:13]: Thank you. Appreciate it. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:15]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at .
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34913085
info_outline
The Transition from Student to Dean with Dr. Chris Douglas
02/17/2025
The Transition from Student to Dean with Dr. Chris Douglas
Graduate school is a journey that resonates differently with each individual. For , the Interim Dean of the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education, and a professor of economics at the University of Michigan Flint, this journey began with a passion for mathematics and science, and has culminated in an inspiring academic and professional career. In this week's episode of Victor's in Grad School, shares his experiences, offering valuable insights and strategies for achieving success in graduate school. Discovering His Path Dr. Douglas began his academic journey at Michigan Technological University, where he pursued a double bachelor's degree. It was during this time that his passion for economics was ignited. He initially embarked on an engineering degree due to a strong affinity for math and science. However, an economics course shifted his trajectory, showcasing how mathematical models could elucidate real-world economic phenomena such as unemployment, recessions, and inflation. This newfound interest led Dr. Douglas to pursue further studies in economics, leveraging the commonalities between economics and engineering, particularly in the use of advanced mathematical and statistical techniques. The Decision to Pursue a PhD The decision to pursue graduate studies is a significant one, often influenced by various factors. For Dr. Douglas, it was a combination of personal interests and the state of the job market in 2001, a period marked by an economic recession. Encouragement from a professor, who recognized his aptitude for economics, further motivated him to apply for PhD programs. Ultimately, Dr. Douglas chose Michigan State University for his PhD, citing proximity to home, the program's prestigious ranking, and a generous fellowship package as key factors. Transitioning to Graduate Studies Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate studies can be daunting. Dr. Douglas likens the experience to the difference between drinking from a garden hose and a fire hose, emphasizing the increased intensity and workload of a PhD program. He highlights the importance of building a support system by connecting with fellow classmates, especially in programs with rigorous coursework like economics or engineering. One of Dr. Douglas's crucial strategies for success was collaborating with peers on complex problem sets, fostering a sense of camaraderie and support during challenging times. This approach not only facilitated academic success but also helped mitigate the loneliness that can accompany prolonged graduate studies. From Academia to Administration While a PhD program prepares students for academic and research careers, it often doesn't directly equip them for administrative roles. Dr. Douglas's transition to the interim dean position was shaped more by accumulated experiences and mentorship than formal education. His progression from department chair to associate dean, and now interim dean, underscores the value of building relationships, seeking mentorship, and being open to feedback and continuous learning. Tips for Success in Graduate School Drawing from his extensive experience, Dr. Douglas offers several valuable tips for aspiring graduate students: Build Connections Form relationships with classmates and professors to create a network of support and collaboration. Seek Help Early Utilize office hours and resources provided by faculty to stay ahead, especially in challenging subjects. Don't Procrastinate Begin work on major projects early and break them down into manageable steps to avoid feeling overwhelmed. Embrace Mentorship Seek guidance from experienced faculty and peers to navigate the complexities of graduate school and career development. Dr. Chris Douglas’s journey through graduate school to his current role as an interim dean illustrates the multifaceted nature of academic and professional success. His insights serve as a valuable guide for current and prospective graduate students, emphasizing the importance of planning, collaboration, and continuous learning. For those embarking on this journey, Dr. Douglas’s story is a testament to the rewards that perseverance, support, and strategic planning can bring. For more information on graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit . TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, walk with you on this path that you're on because it is a journey. You you and I are on a journey together as we're looking at graduate school, as you're considering graduate school, as you you know, and and you might be at many different places. You could be just starting to think about graduate school, haven't even applied. You might maybe you applied, and you just got that acceptance letter. Maybe you're in graduate school, or you're getting toward the end of graduate school, and you see that light at the end of the tunnel. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: No matter where you are, this is a journey that you're on. And throughout this journey, there are many opportunities for you to be able to find success. And that's that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can talk about those experiences and share what they learned in their own graduate school journey to be able to help you on yours. This week we've got another great guest. Doctor Chris Douglas is with us. And Chris is the interim dean of the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education and a professor of economics at the University of Michigan Flint. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: And he's been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years. And his journey led him from being a undergraduate student at Michigan Technological University to becoming a PhD student at Michigan State University. So we're gonna be talking about that journey that he went on and which led him to being a faculty member and working with students like yourself in at the University of Michigan Flint. Chris, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:00]: Oh, you're welcome. Great to be here, Chris. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: I'm really excited to have you here. And I wanna turn the clock back in time first because I as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate work at Michigan Technological University and got a double bachelor's degree when you were up there. And at some point in that time that you were working on those bachelor's degrees, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue with your education. Bring me back to that point. And why did you choose to go to graduate school? Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:31]: So if I wanna go way far back, I graduated high school in 1997. I I always thought I wanted to be an engineer because I liked math. I liked science, and I was pretty good at both. So I went to Michigan Tech because they had a pretty good engineering program, gave me a good financial aid package. So I started my engineering program. It would be fall of 1997. And then as part of general education, I took an economics course. I had never taken economics in high school. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:53]: I took an economics course. It was principles of macroeconomics. I forget if this was 1997 or 1998. I thought it was fascinating. I really thought it was interesting how you could take pretty straightforward mathematical economic models and use them to make real world predictions about the complicated world around us. They explain things like unemployment, recessions, inflation, the business cycle, all the things that we care about as voters, as American citizens, as workers. So I decided to take a microarchaplics course and then I had transferred in several credits because I dual enrolled as a high school student. So that gave me some flexibility to pick up another bachelor degree without really extending my stay in college. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:03:35]: So since I liked economics quite a bit and it turns out there's a lot of commonalities in terms of of the techniques used in economics and the techniques used in engineering. And would it appear that way to be be that way on the surface, but economics involves, especially at the graduate level, lots of math, lots of calculus, lots of statistics, lots of the same techniques used as engineering. So the two majors really complemented each other. So then I became a senior in 2,001. I thought I wanted to get a job in the engineering field. I went on several job interviews, and I started to think like, no. This really isn't for me when I started learning about what a career in engineering would entail. It's for a lot of people just wasn't really for me. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:04:13]: And you might remember back in 2001, there was a recession, so the job market wasn't really that robust anyway. And then an economics professor during an office hours visit kind of played at a bug saying, no. You're pretty good at economics. You might think about a PhD program. And that bug in my ear kinda grew. And then I decided to take the GRE, apply to graduate schools, got accepted to Michigan State, and the rest is history. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:37]: Now you just mentioned that you went to Michigan State University for your PhD in economics, and every person goes through a process of looking at their options. And I'm sure you had had options out there. You applied to numerous schools to look at your options. Why did you choose to attend Michigan State University for your degree? Dr. Chris Douglas [00:04:58]: So a few reasons. 1st, I was close to home. I grew up in Michigan. I bounced around a lot as a kid, but always in Michigan. So Michigan State was maybe 3 hours from my hometown, which was nice. Michigan State was a a highly ranked program in the economics field. Depending on the ranking, it's anywhere between 25th 35th, something like that. So we're respectively ranked, which would make it easier to get a tenure track job, which was my goal. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:05:22]: The faculty were well published, heard good experiences from the graduate students I talked to when I visited campus, went thinking where I wanted to attend, and they gave a a generous fellowship package where, in my 1st year, I was able to serve as a teaching assistant. I always wanted to teach as as well as doing research, so teaching was really important to me. So that teaching assistantship my 1st year meant that I would hold office hours, grade papers, I worked at a help room. But that really laid the groundwork for me to teach my own independent class since my 3rd year and beyond in graduate school. And that teaching experience was really crucial to get my tenure track job here at the University of Michigan Flint. And it really hit the ground running because once I graduated from the PhD program, I wasn't teaching 1 class a semester like I was at graduate school. I was teaching 3 classes a semester while trying to work on research just like I was doing at graduate school. So graduate school is a lot of work, but once I got my full time job here, the workload totally increased. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:06:16]: So having that teaching experience really helped me hit the ground running. It really got my foot in the door to academia because prospective employers saw that I had the teaching experience. And the course evaluations are pretty good for my classes, so I thought that would help. Universities feel pretty comfortable that they were hiring a decent instructor. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:34]: Now every person, as they go from one educational model to a new educational model, from one degree to another degree, you have to learn things. You have to figure out what is different, but also what is the same. And you did make that transition going from the bachelor's degree at Michigan Technological University to Michigan State University. And you made that transition from a bachelor's into the PhD, and you found success. You got through the program. You got your degree. And I guess as you think back to the education and the transition that you went through, what did you have to do as you transitioned into your PhD to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school? Dr. Chris Douglas [00:07:21]: So a PhD program is just more much more intense than a bachelor degree program. So if a bachelor degree program is like drinking from a garden hose, a PhD program is like drinking from from a fire hose. So you just have to be ready for the amount of work, the amount of responsibility that comes from being in a graduate program. I would assume a master's program I've never been to in a dedicated master's program, but I'm guessing a master's program is somewhere between a bachelor and a PhD program. So it's kinda like anything else in life. The farther you go, the more the workload steps up. You just have to be ready for that and expect it. And then think through strategies of how to be successful. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:07:59]: So one strategy I found was and this was absolutely crucial for me, was to get to know my fellow classmates in graduate school because especially in the 1st year, we would work through lots of problem sets. Economics graduate school is a lot like an engineering program that we have these complicated problem sets that require lots of complicated mathematics to complete. And that's just much more feasible to do at a group setting rather than by yourself. And it's also good to have that support system too because graduate school can feel like a bit of a lonely experience. A PhD program is 4 plus years. It took me 5 years. You know, 6 years is not uncommon. And you're doing that in your twenties where everything feels like a lifetime at that point because you're in your twenties. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:08:38]: You're still pretty young. So it's really hard to see that light at the end of the tunnel, although looking back, 5 years feels like a blink of an eye. So it's just good to have that support system where everyone's in the same boat, everyone has the same goal, get through this graduate program so that we can, you know, fulfill our postgraduate goals. And a PhD program outfit is a 10 year track job, but in an economics PhD program, it's not always a 10 year track job. It could be a job at industry. That's pretty common. A job with the federal government. That's also very common for people who work for, say, the Federal Reserve or the Federal Trade Commission, things like that. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:09:12]: But everyone has the same common goal of, you know, get through the graduate program and in particular, get through the 1st year. Because of the PhD program, it's very common to have, like, a 1st year exam. So my 1st year exams are called the preliminary exams, so those lasted over the course of 2 days. It was 4 exams over 2 days. You had to pass those, we called them prelims, to continue on to the 2nd year. So everyone in the program had the same goal, pass the prelims. So that made it really crucial to have the support structure with the with the rest of the our classmates. And I think that's probably true for any other graduate program, including master's programs. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:09:48]: You'll get to know your students in the program. Most programs are probably cohorted. So get to know the students in your cohort because you're all in the same boat. You're working on the same assignments. You have very similar career goals. It's just very, very helpful to have that support system. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:03]: Now you completed that PhD. You became a professor of economics at the University of Michigan, Flint. And currently, as I mentioned, you are the interim dean for the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education. And I usually ask, when you think back to your graduate education, how did that prepare you for what you do? Now I will say that as a professor, it probably makes sense. You're teaching courses that you learned about, you you researched about, that you figured out along the way. But I guess now as an administrator working with many different programs, and you look back at your graduate education, how did your graduate education prepare you to be a interim dean for a college? Dr. Chris Douglas [00:10:46]: Yeah. That's an interesting question because I think the right answer is it really didn't. A PhD program prepares you to be a tenure track faculty member, in particular, a tenure track faculty member at a research university because the focus of a PhD program in a major research university like Michigan State is work on research, you know, published in top journals, which, of course, is important. But there's not as much of a focus on teaching, although that might have changed. It's been nearly 20 years since I've graduated my PhD program. So that's why I thought it was really crucial to get that teaching experience. And there's really no preparation to serve at a leadership capacity at academia. And I think that probably makes sense because to to serve at a leadership capacity, that's gonna be mid career at the earliest for academia because you have to get through the tenure process first to get tenure as an associate professor. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:11:35]: That's 6 years. To get tenure to get promoted to a full professor, that's probably another 6 years minimum after that. So we're talking a dozen years after that first tenure track hire that's pretty far removed from a PhD program. So I think it's kind of the lessons you learned along the way and those gradual steps up in the leadership process that prepares you to take on a dean position. So I began as department chair after I became an associate professor back in 2013. I served as department chair in economics for quite a while, probably close to a decade. And then the College of Arts and Sciences before education was brought on board was reorganized into larger departments. And then I later served as the department chair of Social Sciences and Humanities. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:12:17]: I think I began that in 2022. That I was associate dean for a semester that I became interim dean starting the fall of 2024. So I think, a lot of leadership is just a learning experience. You get more and more responsibility. You take on larger and larger leadership roles, and, you know, things just kind of progress from there. So I think a lot of it's mentorship too. I was fortunate to have some senior faculty mentor me when I was younger. People in the dean's office mentored me, very well when I was working my way up through the ranks. Dr. Chris Douglas [00:12:49]: So I think a lot of it is experience, mentorship, and just learning along the way. Being open to feedback, course correction, and just working with people, building relationships. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: Now I know that you've had an opportunity to work and to teach and to connect with many different graduate students over the years. And as you think about not only your own graduate school experience, but also the experience you've had as a faculty member, as a mentor to other graduate students, and you think about success, what are some tips that you might offer to students, no matter what type of graduate degree that they are going into, that would help them find success sooner? Dr. Chris Douglas [00:13:28]: So I've taught in the master's of...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34912600
info_outline
The Power of Mentorship and Identity in Academia with Dr. Sapna Thwaite
02/10/2025
The Power of Mentorship and Identity in Academia with Dr. Sapna Thwaite
The journey through graduate school is multifaceted, filled with challenges, growth, and incredible learning opportunities. In a recent episode of Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with , Vice Provost for Academic Affairs at the , to discuss her journey and offer invaluable advice for students. Here’s a deep dive into the insights they shared. The Birth of a Calling: Choosing Graduate School Dr. Thwaite’s passion for psychology and education was sparked during her undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan. Initially drawn to English for her love of reading and writing, it was a developmental psychology class under Dr. Scott Harris that truly inspired her. This powerful mentorship and hands-on research experience solidified her resolve to pursue a PhD in educational psychology at Michigan State University. Choosing the right graduate program involves self-reflection and research. Dr. Thwaite emphasized the importance of aligning your research interests with the strengths of the institution. Staying close to home was another factor for her, but it was the fit with Michigan State’s academic environment that ultimately guided her decision. Transitioning and Finding Success in Graduate School Every academic transition comes with its challenges. For Dr. Thwaite, moving from a structured undergraduate environment to the flexible yet demanding world of graduate studies required adjustments. She noted the importance of time management and finding supportive mentors. "Lean into uncertainty," she advised, recognizing that new experiences and diverse interactions are key to growth. Dr. Thwaite highlighted that mentorship is not restricted to one individual. Instead, she encouraged students to seek mentorship from multiple sources, including faculty and peers. Embracing a multi-mentor model allowed her to integrate diverse perspectives and cultivate a robust professional identity. Applying Educational Psychology to Real-World Roles Dr. Thwaite’s expertise in educational psychology not only shaped her academic path but also her approach as Vice Provost. She noted the centrality of lifelong learning and development in any professional field. Creating opportunities for faculty and staff professional development is a priority for her, ensuring that everyone at the university continues to grow and excel. In her current role, she applies theoretical knowledge to practice by fostering an inclusive, dynamic environment. Recognizing diverse identities and backgrounds as critical components of a cohesive academic community, she aims to bring out the best in everyone by emphasizing self-awareness and mutual respect. Tips for Graduate School Success Success in graduate school requires stepping outside of your comfort zone and engaging with the community. Dr. Thwaite’s advice is particularly relevant for those entering graduate programs: Embrace Uncertainty: Lean into the unknown and take initiative to explore new areas. Seek Multiple Mentors: Connect with faculty, peers, and professionals who offer different perspectives. Be Patient and Reflective: Give yourself time to adjust and self-reflect on your progress and decisions. Engage Actively: Join groups, clubs, and attend office hours to build a supportive network. Navigating graduate school is a transformative journey. As Dr. Thwaite articulates through her experiences, every step, whether smooth or challenging, contributes to the development of a well-rounded, successful academic and professional life. For those contemplating further education, or already on this path, her insights serve as a valuable guide. For more insights on how to successfully navigate graduate school, stay tuned to Victor's in Grad School and explore the range of programs offered at the University of Michigan Flint. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we are on a journey together, and I love being able to walk with you on this path that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You might be at the very beginning just starting to think about graduate school, just starting to look at schools or programs, thinking to yourself, what do I have to do to get to that next step? Or maybe you've already applied or gotten accepted. You could even be in a program right now. No matter where you are, you are on a journey working on your education, working on your future career trajectory and goals, the vision that you have for yourself, And this show is here to be able to help you along that journey. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have done different things in their own career, but also have gone through graduate school and have been successful. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about giving you some tips, some hints, some insights, some things that you could put into your own toolbox that'll help you to find success in that graduate school journey. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Sumna Thwaite is with us today, and doctor Thwaite is the vice provost for academic affairs at the University of Michigan Flint. She's also been a long time faculty member at the University of Michigan Flint in the College of Education. And really excited to be able to have her here today to talk about her own experience and to introduce her to you. Sapna, thanks so much for being here today. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:01:50]: Thank you so much, Chris. I really appreciate this opportunity. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: Well, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that you went on as a student that led you to where you are today. So I'd love to turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan. And at some point during that journey, you had an inkling that you were gonna go on. So there was a little bit of time between your undergraduate degree and when you went to get your PhD. So either during your undergraduate days or early in your career, you chose you identified that there was something, something that was drawing you back in to get that additional degree. Talk to me about that. Bring me back to that point where you just started thinking about graduate school. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:43]: What made you decide that going back to graduate school was what you wanted to do? Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:02:47]: So when I was an undergraduate student, I decided very early on that I wanted to major in psychology, and I wanted to major in English. My reasons for Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:02:51]: wanting to psychology. And I wanted to major in English. My reasons for wanting to major in English were not practical in any way. It was because I love to read, and I also wanted to cultivate my writing skills. My interest in psychology was because I felt like psychology was perhaps a calling for me. I really enjoy my interactions with people, understanding human behavior, and understanding the way that people think. I also have always loved being around children, and I've loved being around teenagers and kind of learning about what motivates them and how they grow and they develop. And so when I was in my junior year of college, I took a psychology class that was focused on development, human development, and the professor was particularly inspiring, doctor Scott Harris. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:03:40]: I'm really happy to say that I'm still able to maintain contact with him all these years. But, as I sat in his lecture hall, I was just completely mesmerized with what he had to share, his insights about life. And it made me realize that I wanted to aspire towards a similar role in the future. And so I finally kinda conjured up the courage to go up to him after class to have a conversation with him, which was a really big deal, in a lecture hall of 200 students. And he somehow remembered my face. And later on, I was roaming through the psychology offices looking for a particular professor, not him, And he stopped me in the hallway and asked me if I wanted to explore the possibility of being one of his research assistants and for a whopping $6 an hour. And I was so excited because this is a person who I really idolized, I guess you could say, really looked up to, and I thought I had a lot of information that I could learn from him. So as I started to work with him, I realized I really wanted to go to graduate school. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:04:40]: So I was in my junior year and he was basically basically a really powerful mentor who helped me then decide and shape my next steps. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:47]: So as you were starting to think of those next steps, and you ended up deciding to go to Michigan State University to work on a PhD in educational psychology, every person goes through a different process as they are looking at different programs, looking at different institutions. Talk to me about what you did to be able to not only look at all of the options that were available to you, but also that led you to ultimately decide that Michigan State University's PhD in educational psychology was the right one for you? Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:05:23]: Okay. So when I was a junior in undergrad, I was leaning more towards pursuing a PhD in developmental psychology, and I was very eager to gain research experience because I knew that I was aspiring towards a research related, degree. And so one of the things that I did that I would really strongly recommend anybody do, while they're perhaps an undergraduate student, is I volunteered to work on a research project, and that had to do with infant cognition. I was making smiley faces at babies and seeing how they reacted to me. I also participated in the research experience with the professor I just mentioned to you earlier, doctor Paris. That was a paid $6 an hour job, and it involved doing research in a school setting. So I basically tried to expose myself to research as much as I could as an undergraduate student and realized at that point that I was really more interested in learning about learning and development in educational settings. And so that's what made me deviate from that original idea of becoming a developmental psychologist and go towards ed psych. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:06:25]: I did work with that particular professor, and this really speaks to the power of mentors, to get some suggestions about possibilities. And I had really wanted to stay closer to home, though I did apply to a wide range of PhD programs. But the one thing that was emphasized to me was making sure that there was a good fit between the graduate school that you are applying to and your own research interests. So I had cultivated my research interests a little bit, as an undergraduate student. No. I had not presented it or, you know, written any papers, but I did have a sense as to where I wanted to go. So actually, I did not even have a gap between my undergrad and my PhD program. The I was advised for the kind of work that I wanted to do that going into kind of more of a straight shot doctoral program would allow one to get the equivalent of a master's degree along the way. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:07:16]: And so if you decide after taking your comprehensive exams, I think that's the point where that you no longer wanna continue on in the doctoral program, you can exit with a master's. So I had an out potentially, but and and and Michigan State University happened to have a faculty member whose work resonated with me because he was a developmental psychologist in education, which is how I was starting to kind of identify myself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: Every time that you go into a new type of degree, there are transitions. You go from high school to get your bachelor's, from bachelor's into a a master's or PhD program. At every level, the way that you're being taught is a little bit different, the expectations are different, and what you have to do to find success is going to be a little bit different. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. As you went from the University of Michigan as a undergraduate student into that master's, doctorate program at Michigan State University, what did you have to do as you're going through that transition to find success? But also, what did you have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout the entire time in that program? Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:08:29]: That is a really good question. So I identify as being a creature of habit. I'm very into routines and rituals, and I like being in comfortable settings, surrounded by people who I know. So for me, that transition from undergrad to grad school was a big, big leap. I was also only 22. My brother said to me my older brother said to me, you're making a mistake. You should take some time off and work. Do something else. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:08:54]: Get a research position. Do something to gain experience. But I was very focused on going to Michigan State because I had gotten in and I received a really good opportunity to do research there with a professor who I really, really was excited to work with. And so it seemed like the right thing to make that step. But the one thing that I had to do as I made that transition is really lean into uncertainty because this was the first time that I was moving into a territory that I really didn't know a lot about. You know, going to college, I had a lot of people around me who went to college. But going into a doctoral program in a field that I didn't have anyone around me who I could turn to, I didn't have but they'd accept with the exception of that faculty member who was a really powerful mentor for me in undergrad, I didn't have any friends or any family who had decided to pursue a doctorate in education or psychology. So I was really, like, having to lean into the uncertainty and be patient with myself and really just allow that transition to occur. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:09:57]: That 1st year was very bumpy for me, partially because I was really encountering a lot of different doctoral students with very different professional backgrounds and very different educational backgrounds than me. Some of them had been teachers. Some of them had been working for foundations. Some of them had been out in the field in other ways. And, you know, I was really one of the youngest ones there and probably one of the least experienced. But I was coming in with a psychology background, and that was really what my focus was, being a psychologist in education. And so I learned over time, the value of being able to embrace your own identity, your own emerging professional identity, but also embracing those of others and realizing there's a reason why we're all there together, to learn from each other. And it took me probably a good year before I was able to figure that piece out. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:10:44]: But it was it was not an easy transition in the beginning. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:47]: You know, we always have to be able to do what we can to be able to learn from those pieces and then take those pieces to be able to make those adjustments. What were some of the initial adjustments that you had to make as you were learning that would that helped you as you went further and you got that experience under your belt? Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:11:05]: I think one of the things was my undergraduate experience was a little bit more structured. Graduate school is less structured in some ways. Most of the courses occur from 4 to 7 PM. And then finding ways to manage your time during the day, I was doing research. I was also taking courses. I was also doing my own independent research projects, and I also, dabbled with a few teaching assignments in between. So, learning how to manage my time was a really big piece. And luckily, that was not something too difficult for me because I tend to be very structured in the way that I approach my daily life. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:11:36]: The other piece was finding those people who I could connect to, and in some ways, not just relying on finding one mentor, which I had in undergrad, but looking to take, in some ways, and this is gonna sound funny, but it it will make sense as I explain it, taking bits and pieces of the people around me and kind of starting to formulate that sense of self that I wanted to have in the future, that professional self that I was aspiring towards. So, for example, later on, as I got into my dissertation, on my dissertation committee, one of the faculty was incredibly creative and an out of the box thinker. I was not as creative. And so I took bits and pieces of what I learned from him and tried to instill a little bit more creativity in the work that I was doing. I had a colleague who had a vast knowledge of literacy practices and what my dissertation topic was gonna draw upon literacy. I took a lot of her knowledge and expertise, and that guided me to learn in different areas that I did not know a lot about. So realizing that that mentor does not just come in the shape of 1 person, but that there are bits and pieces of people around you that you can take that can help you start forming your own identity and your own future professional self. So I really give a lot of credit to those people that I interacted with, those faculty, but I had to seek them out. Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:12:48]: And it didn't just involve taking classes with them or having them on a committee, but actually having conversations with them and learning about their own trajectories as a part of that. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:56]: Now you mentioned that you are currently the vice provost for academic affairs, and that's after a number of other positions that you've had at the University of Michigan Flint. And your professional career has been at the University of Michigan Flint, so you have a long history here at our university. For a number of people, when they think they got a PhD, they're they're teaching, and it it makes sense how one thing leads to another. Talk to me about the things that you learned in that educational psychology doctorate program. How has what you learned in that program led you to the work that you're doing today as vice pros provost for academic affairs? And what do you draw from in regard to that degree on a daily basis that has helped you to be able to be successful in that position? Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:13:46]: That's a great question. Okay. So as I reflect here for a moment, one of the things that I have recognized now as a vice provost and, you know, I've been at U of M Flint now for almost 25 years. One of the things that I've recognized is the centrality of learning and development, in our lives as humans and and in our professional lives in whatever we do, whether we are faculty, staff, scholars, administrators, whatever. That learning and development is a is a lifelong process. We are always learning. We are always developing and that we need to create opportunities, like, at least as a vice provost, one of the things that I feel very strongly about is creating opportunities for our faculty and staff to be able to learn and develop. One of my major areas of focus next semester is professional development of all kinds, professional development for faculty and staff related to students and their sense of belonging, professional development related to research, making the transition from being an associate professor to a full professor, learning...
/episode/index/show/85d5a8de-0188-4c24-8405-21b759e044b5/id/34714475