Dr. Cathy Larson on Physical Therapy, Research, and Educational Success

Undertaking the path from a Bachelor’s degree to gaining a Ph.D. in Physical Therapy (PT) is not just an academic pursuit but a transformative journey of personal and professional growth. Dr. Cathy Larson, the Director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint, joins the Victors in Grad School podcast to share her remarkable voyage through the layers of graduate education, her decision points, and insights for aspiring scholars.

The Early Years: Finding Direction

From Pre-Vet to Physical Therapy

Dr. Larson embarked on her academic journey at Michigan State University intending to become a veterinarian. However, a pivot towards human healthcare led her to discover physical therapy. Experiences shadowing PTs and OTs at Sparrow Hospital sparked her interest in the field, prompting her to shift her focus from pre-vet to physiology to better prepare for a PT career.

Exploring Educational Options

At a time when PT programs were transitioning from bachelor’s to master’s degrees, Dr. Larson was strategic in her selection, focusing on institutions offering a Master of Science. After visiting several campuses, the University of Alabama stood out due to her connection with the faculty and the research opportunities it offered. She cherished her clinical and educational experiences, working in diverse locations and handling a wide range of cases, including some in unconventional settings like Cook County Hospital in Chicago.

The Leap to Academia

Returning to Academia

Despite an enriching clinical career spanning three decades, Dr. Larson felt an insatiable curiosity and a desire to delve deeper into research. Balancing young children and a part-time clinical position, she pursued her Ph.D. in Kinesiology at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, seeking to gain the skills necessary for independent research and to fulfill her passion for teaching.

Developing Research Skills

Dr. Larson highlighted the need for a Ph.D. to conduct rigorous research, which is integral to addressing complex questions arising in clinical practice. Her coursework and seminars equipped her with advanced research methodologies and critical evaluation skills, elements she felt lacked even in advanced clinical practice.

Teaching and Nurturing New Generations

Directing the PT PhD Program

As the Director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint, Dr. Larson now leads the charge in preparing future physical therapists for academic and research roles. She underscores the program's unique blend of catering to those who have completed their DPT and those pursuing dual DPT/PhD paths, thus fulfilling a niche in physical therapy education.

Preparing for Success in Graduate School

Dr. Larson reflects on the evolution from clinician to scholar, emphasizing the importance of organizational skills, effective study strategies, and stress management. These foundational elements, cultivated during undergraduate studies, are crucial for thriving in the rigorous environment of graduate programs.

Embracing Continuous Learning

The Multifaceted Career of a Physical Therapist

One of the appeals of the physical therapy profession, as Dr. Larson articulates, is its versatility. Physical therapists can engage in clinical practice, education, research, or a combination thereof, continually evolving within their careers without needing to switch fields entirely. This multidisciplinary nature enriches the professional landscape, allowing PTs to pursue diverse passions and redefine their roles continuously.

Dr. Larson’s journey underscores that graduate education, particularly in physical therapy, is more than a means to an end—it’s a path of continuous learning and professional development. Her insights offer invaluable guidance for those considering advanced degrees, illustrating that the quest for knowledge and improvement doesn’t stop at the clinic but extends into the realms of research and education. Aspiring PTs can draw inspiration from her experiences and understand that every step, every challenge, and every triumph on this path is a significant stride toward making impactful contributions to the field of physical therapy.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]:
Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, we are on a journey together. We have this opportunity to be able to talk every week and be able to look at what I call your journey, your educational journey. It is a journey because no matter where you are, you may be just starting to think about graduate school. Maybe you applied, you're waiting on that answer, or you got that answer and you and you've gotten accepted and now you're figuring out, am I going to go there? Am I going to do this? You know, what's next? Or maybe you're in graduate school and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you're or maybe you're close to being done. And now you're looking at what's next.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]:
No matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do to be successful in the journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to have this opportunity to talk with you, to walk with you, to help you to find success, find tools, find resources, things that you can do to be able to build some tools for your own toolbox and prepare yourself even more for the success that you want in graduate school. Every week, I introduce you to different people with different experiences. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor Cathy Larson is with us. And doctor Larson is the director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have her here. She did her undergraduate work at Michigan State University, getting a bachelor's in physiology, and then went on and got a master of science degree in physical therapy when all the PG programs were still requiring the master's. That's changed now. Now all the PT programs are requiring a doctorate degree in physical therapy. And her PT degree was from the University of Alabama. And then she went on to get a PhD in kinesiology from the University of Michigan. So I'm really excited for her to share some of her own journey with you, but also her journey as a faculty member. And I'm excited to introduce her to you. Cathy, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:16]:
Well, thank you, Chris. It was a nice introduction. And yes, that so far has been my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:21]:
Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And what I wanna do first and foremost is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I wanna use that magic wand of mine to go back in time. And I wanna go back to Michigan State University, where you were working on that bachelor's degree. And at some point during that time at Michigan State University, you had this inkling, you had this thought, you said, I want to go beyond getting this bachelor's degree in physiology to get a degree in physical therapy. Talk to me about that point. What made you decide physical therapy was the field that you wanted to study?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:55]:
Well, that's a great question because to be honest with you, I went to Michigan State University thinking that I was going to become a vet. They have a great vet school at Michigan State. I went there and maybe I'm still a vet wannabe, but I did get the opportunity to explore different careers, and I was looking for a health career. So I decided that I wanted to really be beneficial to not animals, but human beings. So I I got the opportunity to go and explore different health fields. I went to Sparrow Hospital, for example, and observed their PT department, OT, etcetera. And then I really got a spark when I was exploring physical therapy. And so I contemplated quite a while to figure out if that's what I wanted to do.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:03:51]:
And so I did shadow some physical therapists. I shadowed an OT as well, but then I decided that PT was what I wanted to do. I was pre vet. So I ended up trying to figure out which undergraduate degree would best prepare me for PT. So I chose first physiology, which I got to do some research as an undergraduate student. I was able to take all my prerequisites for my PT degree, applying for the PT degree. And at that point in time, it was a master's degree. So there were only like maybe 8 programs, because this was in the period when we were converting from bachelor programs to master's degrees.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:04:38]:
And I was starting to get to the point that I was almost at the end of my bachelor's degree when I decided. So I ended up really just thinking about that. And to be honest with you, my mom was really influential in saying, well, if you've got, if you're close to a bachelor's degree, finish that and then try to apply for a master's degree, which in the long run really served me well because then I had the master's degree and the ability to apply for a PhD. So I had that master's degree and it was in physical therapy. It was in Alabama. So I loved Birmingham. I loved the warm weather. I remember walking around with all the dogwood trees and all the rhododendrons, etcetera.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:24]:
But I really enjoyed that experience because there were only 8 people in the master's program, but then there were a much larger number in the bachelor's program. So they had both and the 8 of us were treated, I want to say a little bit special because we got more individual attention. I just got great experiences. I had great clinical experiences in my master's degree. I still think back on those and I got to do them across the country. So I was in St. Louis for a while. I was actually in Kentucky and did some of my clinicals.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:58]:
I did one in Chicago, which was very meaningful because I was born in bad ex Michigan. I'm a rural girl. And so going to Chicago and I was working at Cook County Hospital there or doing my affiliation, my clinical affiliation at Cook County. And I ended up treating a patient that was in shackles and, you know, that was a little difficult to have him walk up the stairs, but I was exposed to a huge variety of patients. I remember this was the first time that I saw a patient wearing a halo, which is a huge cumbersome neck brace, which we still use in PT. But I, he was walking around with the halo and I'm going, wait a minute, this does not compute. He had a spinal cord injury and he's walking around, but he was mainly involved in his upper extremities. So it was just like very startling.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:06:57]:
So my journey has been kind of a longer one because I, you know, I did do my bachelor's degree then, I did immediately go into my master's degree, but then I waited to start my PhD in Ann Arbor. Now I lived in the Ypsilanti area, so Ann Arbor was close, but I needed to go and talk to potential chairs. So you do need to align yourself just like we do now for our PhD program at U of M Flint. You do want to align yourself with a chair that is investigating areas of study that are passions for you as well. So to match up with a chair. So I did a lot of exploration and I did find Charles Warrenham, who was my initial chair at U of M in Ann Arbor. And he was studying movement sciences, which mirrored in, you know, it was a definite positive experience for me as a physical therapist. And I did work in the clinic.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:06]:
I worked in the clinic. I'm not working right now, but I worked in the clinic for a significantly long time, mainly at the Rehab Institute of Michigan in Detroit that I worked as a clinician for, what, 30 years total on and off.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]:
One question that I have for you is you had mentioned back at the master's level. Let's go back there first. You talked about the fact that at the time when you were looking at physical therapy schools, there were only a handful of schools out there. So I'm sure you did some searching, some exploration to look at those 8 programs that you mentioned that were out there that would allow for a student to come in at a master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for? Master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for and what made you ultimately decide to go to the University of Alabama?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:57]:
Well, the University of Alabama had a master's of science. So that's why, what I was looking for. So I did want that master's degree, but I visited many of the campuses. So fortunately I had the financial means to go and, and some of them actually did, have obligatory. This was before internet. So we needed to travel as opposed to having an online interview. That was not an option at that time. So I did visit a few of those places.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:09:32]:
And then I just, when I got to the university of Alabama, I just clicked with the faculty that I was interviewing and speaking with. I was allowed to, you know, talk with faculty over a 2 day period, which gave me a lot of time to get to know people. And then, so, and then I just clicked with several of the faculty members and it was a pleasure to get to know them, understand what their research is. And then to be honest with you, we didn't figure out exactly the who was gonna chair my master's thesis, but that, that ended up being a very positive experience. So it was a connection with the faculty and what they do and their program and they're laying it out and laid the program out. There were a huge dynamic faculty there and they influenced my decisions. And so while I was there, I was starting to say, you know what? I do wanna be a clinician first. So I was a clinician for multiple years until I decided to go back and get my PhD, but I ended up through the master's degree experience, wanting to be like these dynamic faculty.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:10:47]:
And they were dynamic for multiple reasons. They helped you learn the material. They had time for 1 on 1 conversations while you're going through the courses, but they were also very involved with the American Physical Therapy Association. And they would bring speakers in, and we would learn from the speakers. I started going to the combined sections meetings through the APTA as a student there. I became a member of the APTA as a student way back when, and I have maintained my membership in the APTA ever since my student experience. So that was influential. When I was at the conferences, the faculty introduced me and helped me start to build my network.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:11:39]:
So I'm talking too much about what happened as a master's student, but also your, your main question was what influenced me. And it truly was the connection with the faculty that said, okay, this is my home. This can be my home for a period of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]:
And I mentioned at the beginning, and you mentioned the journey continued on after going out, working, being a professional clinician for a number of years, you decided to go back to school to get a PhD. And not every physical therapist wants to do that. You know, many PTs are they're happy with the patient contact, the patient care, the work that they're doing in that clinical setting. You decided you wanted to go further, continue on with the re some of the research things that you you enjoyed and your master's degree. So talk to me about that decision. What made you decide that going back to school to get that PhD in kinesiology was the route that you wanted to take?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:12:42]:
Okay. Well, I would like to express to you that I had young children at the time. So I was like, should I delay? Should I delay? And then I spoke to myself. I ended up going part time as a clinician. So I cut down my hours and then I joined the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Kinesiology department. I just really wanted to well, as a clinician, I didn't feel like I had the tools to perform research as well as I would like to. So I did not believe like, we had the opportunity to do research as a master's degree student, but I still didn't think I had the tools to make this research a big part of my career. So I was feeling that when I was in the clinic, I was like, well, I certainly would like to address this question about patient care or I'd like to do this about, you know, I would have issues arise with my patients and I'm going, I would really like to explore those issues, but to I didn't feel like I had the skills.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:13:51]:
So I looked for a PhD program. Ann Arbor was a beautiful experience in that I learned so many skills that I did not have as a clinician to be able to carry out my own independent research projects. And that's what I think every PhD student's goal is to really dive into, like, research design, how to, of course, critically evaluate a research study and know enough about statistics to understand if they were correctly done. You look at a paper where the results that they have leading to the conclusions that they made or the discussion that they had for their research study. And I got a lot of opportunity to do that in my PhD, which I didn't have as a clinician at that point well enough to give me confidence to do independent research.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:49]:
Now from there, you moved into academia and got into an opportunity to be able to teach other students and to be able to connect with other students where now you are leading the charge of working with PhD students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And kind of like the experience that you had with the master's program, there aren't a ton of PhD in physical therapy programs in the United States. Can you talk to me about the PT PhD? Let's talk about that specifically and why it was important for the University of Michigan Flint to create that program and to encourage clinicians, people with a terminal degree to continue on to get that PhD.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:15:36]:
We first and there were others that were part of this, this first designing of a PhD program in physical therapy. And I just wanna help you understand and the audience to understand that you're right. This is a PhD in physical therapy that we offer at the University of Michigan Flint. It does prepare you to teach in doctor, you know, the DPT, doctor of physical therapy programs, and serve as a faculty for DP and DPT programs, as well as to do research, which I have the strong passion to try to help facilitate that experience for individuals that would like to seek a PhD. There are those that either right away, because we have a dual DPT PhD program that right away say, yes, I have aspirations to become a faculty member. And, you know, I had these career aspirations to be a faculty member and a researcher primary, you know, in physical therapy, or it could be a slightly broader. They might do their research and any of the healthcare health services. So, but mainly research that will help facilitate and answer questions for the PT profession.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:17:01]:
So those individuals that really know right away that they want to teach and do research, it's a great avenue, even as, as you're going through the DPT program, you can apply and go through the dual program. Otherwise there is, you know, you can already have your degree in physical therapy and then apply for the PhD program. And then again, learn the skills to become an independent researcher. And also we have 6 credits in out of the 45 total credits that you need to take 45 45 to 55 credits that you need to take to get your PhD degree, we have we have the option for both of those avenues, either the dual program or once you have your degree, you can apply and and for the PhD program. When a student comes into a physical therapy program, in their in most of their minds, they're thinking clinic. They're thinking, I wanna help people to be able to regain motion,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:10]:
to regain the the daily activity motion skills that they want after an injury or after an illness or after whatever it is in their life that has caused them to lose that mobility. So going into a program like this, many of them may not even have a notion that getting a PhD, 1, is an option or 2, is what they want to do, or many of them may not even know what does it take beyond getting a DPT to be able to do that. So as you talk to students and kind of open their eyes to the the concept of getting a PhD in physical therapy, specifically, what are the things that you try to impress most on those students that are they're gaining the clinical skills and they're gaining some research as a part of the DPT because it is a doctorate degree. But to impart on them what the next step really is, what are some of those things that you impart on them to be able to differentiate for them what they will be doing as a part of a clinical doctorate program versus the PhD program?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:19:21]:
Well, let's first talk about the individuals that already have their physical therapy degree and they're practicing as clinicians. I know that was my journey. I loved being a clinician. I love doing that, but then eventually many individuals that are clinicians may say, okay, you know, I'm hungry when it comes to learning and learning. I'm hungry. I went to all the continuing education courses I could as a clinician. I read a lot. We had journal clubs as a clinician and, you know, a lot of times I did lead those, but others led them and we had very, very dynamic group.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:20:04]:
But unfortunately in the clinic, sometimes you don't have time to devote to, there are productivity issues, which are expected of you, and then there's less time to do some educational exploration. So, so many, many clinicians might say, I need more, I need to feed the, the side of me that needs, that needs more education, that needs discussions. And, you know, you can do that with other avenues, but if you say, Oh, I feel I'm very confident as a, as a clinician, but now I want more, I want to do something else. And then they might take, you know, of course as a clinician, you might serve as a clinical instructor. And so you might be instructing on a clinical, in a clinical venue, individual PT students and helping them develop their clinical skills. And so you get some of your educational, you know, your teaching and education, they teach you half the time, some new information, the student, the, and the clinics teach you, and then you wanna explore it more. And then you say, I would like to spend more time and have a little more time to, explore the educational side of things. And that can be done definitely in a PhD program, but also many of us faculty, at least probably practice one day a week still in the clinic.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:21:46]:
And then also, you know, so we are allowed, at least in my contract here, we're allowed at least one day away to act as a clinician and do that so we can keep up our clinical skills as well. So there is the best of both worlds. You can still teach without a PhD. You can teach with a DPT, but to be competitive in the hiring process for faculty, they will look at individuals who apply for the faculty positions with PhDs. Those applications will rise to the top of the stack because most PT educational programs need people to continue research. And they also need, people that will specialize in certain top, like I teach the neuro classes. I teach a lot of classes that have to do with neuroscience. I teach motor control and motor learning because of my background at Ann Arbor.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:22:49]:
I also teach neurological conditions, but then I also chair a lot of the PhD students or facilitate their educational process. But I just love the different avenues. And and may I speak to that? I love physical therapy because you can almost, in quotes, change your position or change your employment within the field. So I can be a clinician. I could go and get special credentialing through the APDA in areas like neurological, areas or, you know, geriatrics or orthopedics or whatever I could get my specialization certification. So that would facilitate your ability to teach in certain areas. I feel like I've had multiple careers because I was a clinician only. Then I went part time and did part time teaching.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:23:47]:
I then went back to clinician only for a while, but then after I got my PhD, I became a faculty member. So I feel like, and then researcher in there too. So that feels like an, another avenue, another career avenue. So some other programs you might go through a program, you might get education in that field, and then you wanna change because things just change for your career aspirations. And, but then you might have to go back and get more education to go into a different field. In PT, I feel like I've changed fields without going back. Well, I got my PhD, but without, having to explore a whole another career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]:
Now going back to your own education, I know, I mean, you found success. You got the master's. You got that PhD. You continued on in your career. As any student transitions into different educational models, there are different ways of learning, there's different expectations, and you have to learn what those are to find success. Can you think back to your own transitions, your transition into your master's degree, your transition into your doctorate degree, what did you have to do as you transitioned into those educational models and at those institutions to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those graduate programs?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:25:17]:
I can give you a few examples of that. Okay. We would have as PhD students and the master students could end up going to these. In Ann Arbor, they would have these seminars where guest speakers would come in and speak to us. Okay. When I went to my first one, I was like, whoosh, you know, what they were talking about. I maybe understood the first 10 minutes and I was like, okay, I'm lost. So I really had to like, think about where did my comprehension fail? But as I kept attending and as I kept learning, I was so pleased.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:25:57]:
Okay. Now I can hang in for 30 minutes and I can like get all the details. And so it was progressive successes. And sometimes they're just so small, like, okay, today I held in there 30 minutes and I followed what was said, but then the details got beyond me. And then I could track my progress in the program because by the end of the 1st year, or maybe into the 2nd, middle of the 2nd year, I was following all the conversations and I could be confident in asking questions that weren't too stupid. So, or I'm, maybe I should say another word for that, but I felt comfortable to ask questions from a knowledge base. Now they still might not have been to the knowledge base of these excellent guest speakers, but I always accept that there's more to learn. And even as, for example, another thing that I could speak to is that many of our PhD students, we start to try to challenge them to present information and then be able to handle questions and answers and be able to ask questions of their fellow students in a very respectful, but trying to probe for more information.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:27:22]:
And we'd like to give our students those experiences. So then if they get the opportunity to go out and speak at a state level conference or a national level conference, they will feel confident in many of our students, both the DPT students and the PhD students are invited to go to state conferences. Our APTA combined section is usually in January or February to go to that. There is fortunately the partial support for student travel and many of our students get to go to these conferences and they could either attend and get in from new information at the conference, or we encourage them to eventually present either a poster or a platform presentation, and we try to help them build those skills. So they're like, they can handle the other question and answer period. I don't know if I went on a tangent here, but it's just some really cool opportunities for growth. Did I answer your original question? Because I have a tendency to wander.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]:
Now you have transitioned into your faculty role. You work with PhD PhD students, DPT students. You're working with students on a regular basis. As you think about the experience that you had in your own graduate education, and as you think about the interactions and the work that you do with graduate students, and you think about students just thinking about graduate school in general. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate school, whether it be for physical therapy or for other graduate programs that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:29:00]:
I'm gonna really go basic here. I do believe that sometimes the studying strategies for undergraduate depends on the undergraduate program, how rigorous the program is, and what study strategies and test taking strategies that students develop over time. So we actually have a course in our 1st year, the 1st semester of our DPT program to help you at least explore your test taking strategies, your study strategies. And the biggest thing is organization sometimes. I find that some students don't use the calendar or use their calendar on their cell phone or their calendar on their computer, whatever. And then they don't have a strategy for getting assignments in on time. And so if, as an undergrad student, you can really attend to those basic skills. And so that you're not struggling with, and I think this has gotten, this is my personal opinion, but I think this has gotten a little bit more troublesome for students during the COVID and post COVID years where a lot of the courses were online.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:30:17]:
So, but just being, learning to be very proactive about how you organize yourself, testing and studying strategies, but also managing stress because the DPT program and the PhD program, they can be stressful and you need to learn to manage ways to divide your time appropriately, to study for each course, you need to develop all of those skills. And the more that you develop them as an undergraduate student, you can definitely carry them out as a graduate student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:50]:
Well, Cathy, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all that advice today, and I truly wish you all the best. Thanks, Chris. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:32]:
If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].