Navigating the Graduate School Journey: Lessons in Success from Dr. Cam McLeman

Considering graduate school or already deep in your studies? Navigating this journey can feel overwhelming—full of choices, challenges, and the constant pursuit of personal and professional growth. This week’s “Victors in Grad School” episode is a must-listen for anyone at any stage of that journey, as Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Cam McLeman, director of the Data Analytics program at University of Michigan-Flint, to share valuable insights that will resonate with students, alumni, and educators alike.

Dr. McLeman’s story is one many can relate to: a passionate undergraduate uncertain about career direction, he experimented with disciplines before returning to his true academic love—mathematics. His decision to pursue a PhD, driven by a thirst for deeper knowledge rather than a prescribed career path, will inspire those who view learning as a lifelong process. But his journey didn’t stop with earning that doctorate—transitioning into the realm of data analytics, Dr. McLeman demonstrates the power of adapting skills and embracing new opportunities as the landscape of higher education and industry evolves.

The conversation dives deep into practical wisdom for succeeding at the graduate level. Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate studies, Dr. McLeman notes, is much like moving from high school to college—you’re expected to take far more ownership of your pathway. The self-driven nature of graduate school requires not just academic diligence but also proactive organization, advocacy, and a willingness to push beyond comfort zones. Dr. McLeman highlights the importance of building connections: with faculty, with industry, and especially with peers who are further along the journey. “Don’t struggle in silence,” he urges, pointing to the wealth of support services campuses offer—from academic assistance to mental health and disability support. Success often hinges on reaching out and taking advantage of these resources before issues become overwhelming.

Perhaps the most compelling theme fro

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week, every week. I love being able to bring you on this journey because it is a journey. You have made a choice. You've made a choice that either you're looking at graduate school, maybe you've applied to graduate school, maybe you got accepted to graduate school. No matter where you are, whether you're just applying, you're in graduate school or beyond, this is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]:
And you have definite things that you can learn to be able to prepare yourself not only to make the transition into graduate school, but things that you can do to be able to be even more successful as you go through that entire graduate school process. And that's why this show exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to pick up some tools for your toolbox, to be able to help you to figure out some things that you might even be able to do right today. Or as you go further on, to help you in this journey. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Cam McLeman is here. And Cam is the director of our data analytics program here at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]:
And he had his own graduate school journey that we're gonna be talking about today. Also works with graduate students, so he definitely has some perspectives on what it's like to work with the graduate students and what he's seen with them. So I'm really excited to have him here, and I am really looking forward to having this conversation today. Cam, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:01:44]:
Thank you very much for having me, Chris. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]:
It is my pleasure. I am really excited to be able to talk to you today, to be able to delve a little bit deeper into your own journey and see what we can learn along the way. And I know you did your undergrad work at Harvey Mudd College and got a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics. And at some point during that time during your undergraduate work, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on with your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about kind of what you were thinking and what made you decide that you wanted to go on to graduate school.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:15]:
Yeah, so I came into undergrad pretty confident that I wanted to do mathematics. In some capacity. I also had a passing interest in computer science and physics and engineering, but I knew that math had to be part of it. And as I travers my undergraduate degree, I dabbled in all of those things. I picked up a second major in computer science, and then I dropped that, decided it wasn't for me, and I picked up a second major in physics, and I dropped that and decided it wasn't for me. And every time I just came back to math, and that's what I found my passion in. And by the end of my undergraduate degree, it wasn't so much that I was chasing a specific career, it was just that I knew I was not done learning math. I couldn't choose not to keep going.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:57]:
So. So grad school was in some sense just the natural continuation of my learning process at that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:04]:
So as you made that decision that you were going to keep learning, you wanted to keep going and continue your education, I'm sure you did some exploration, you did some research, you tried to figure out for yourself where was that next step. And ultimately, I know you made the choice to go to the University of Arizona to get a PhD in mathematics. Talk to me about that journey for yourself and what made you decide first, a PhD in mathematics. But also, what did you go through? What were some of the things that you were looking for? What made you ultimately end up choosing the University of Arizona over the many other PhD programs that are out there across the United States and beyond?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:03:44]:
Yeah, that's a great question. And to be fair, it was not an easy discussion. The choices when you're graduating from an undergraduate institution, especially, I think in a STEM field, are pretty overwhelming. There are industry options and commercial options to consider. Those were not my particular, you know, appeal. That was wasn't what I was interested in. I was interested in doing more academics. So then you have the question of do you go for a Master's degree or a PhD degree if you want to keep going, and in mathematics, that the choice is a little bit different than in some fields in that a master's degree is something you would pick if you knew what career you wanted to go into, and it had a master's degree requirement to it.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:04:25]:
Whereas a PhD degree is the academic degree. If you want to go for the full doctorate, knowing that along the way, you essentially pick up a master's degree. So for me, the choice was clear because I knew that if I needed to bail out at some point along the way, decided that the PhD wasn't for me, then most PhD programs give you that that exit ramp to exit with just a Master's degree just is not meant as pejoratively there, just earlier than the PhD and then sort of every stage in your academic career from there on, you are constrained by availability. So I probably applied to a dozen grad schools for my PhD program. That's out of a choice of several hundred. So this was finding the programs that appealed to me both geographically and in terms of what expertise their faculty had. And cost was a factor, the likelihood that they would be able to subsidize part of my education. And in the end, the University of Arizona offered the best total package there.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:05:33]:
I had never been to Arizona. I did not know that it would reach 110 degrees some summers. That was a climate based struggle for me during my time there. But in terms of the quality of the faculty and the aid package they were able to offer me, that just rose above the rest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]:
Now, as you make that transition and you go to graduate school, there is definitely a transition, because the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student is not going to be the same way that you're going to be taught as a graduate student. There's different expectations not only of your faculty, but also pressure that you put on yourself. Expectations that you have on yourself for the ultimate goal that you're working, working to attain. You found success, you ended up getting that PhD, getting that graduate degree. As you think back to that transition for yourself, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:06:37]:
That's a great question. Let me start by a preliminary story, which is that in my role right now, I deal with a lot of the transition from high school students to undergraduate students, students telling them what to expect in their first year of undergrad. And what I tell them is that this will be a transition in the sense that there's not going to be people holding your hand through every step of this process. There's not going to be someone forcing you to come to class and telling you after you get done with your sports practice, you have to sit down for an hour and do your homework. Undergrad, you're much more responsible for setting your own schedule. That transition from high school to undergraduate is mirrored again in the transition from undergraduate to graduate. Here, not only do you have to come to class of your own volition and do your homework when you're supposed to, you need to also be in charge of managing your course selection and your advisor selection so that you're hitting your life goals. It is a matter of being much more self driven in terms of organization.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:07:36]:
If you are not motivated to complete the degree, you're not going to do well in the degree. If you take the approach that all you have to do is sit through the classes and you'll come out the other side with a degree, you may get the degree, but you won't be on that success path for accelerating and whatever your post degree goals were. So I think to come back to your question of what measures to take to ensure success, it is about claiming that ownership of your journey. It is about making sure that at each step you're not blindly following what you think will be the easiest path to the degree, but rather deliberately choosing paths that might be harder if it means that at the end you'll be a better master of your subject.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]:
I mentioned at the beginning you're working with undergraduate students, but you're also working with graduate students now in a new data analytics program. And I guess I'm interested to dig a little deeper on what you've learned from students that you've been working with at the graduate level now versus the undergraduate level, either with what they've been challenged with or what you've had to work with them with as they've made that transition in and through graduate school.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:08:45]:
Yeah, so our graduate program in data analytics is a very interesting case and perhaps a bit of a contrast to the story that I just told in that it is essentially always a terminal degree for students in that program, that it is very career focused, that students in that program tend to come out very well prepared for jobs and not typically with the intent of going on to get a PhD in data analytics. What I found from our students in our program is that they hit those hallmarks that I was just talking about. They come to this degree knowing what industry they want to go work in. And that's in part the design of the program. So just to give a very brief overview, the data analytics program is sort of half your courses skills based, getting computer science and math background to prepare you. Then the other half is discipline specific. If you want to go into healthcare admin, you take a bunch of courses in the College of Health Sciences learning about healthcare. If you want to go into business analytics, you take half your courses with the School of Management.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:09:44]:
So students come into our program with a pretty good sense of which area of industry they want to go into. And then it is sort of my job as advisor to help match their career goals with the courses that they would take to get there. And sometimes, and I think the best students push back and say, actually in this field, which I might not know about personally, it's better to have this skill than this skill. So I was hoping I could take this class instead of this class, in which case that's absolutely fine. And we figured that out in the system.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:14]:
You got your PhD in mathematics, you're still teaching in mathematics and working with mathematics students at the same time. You're now doing data analytics. Talk to me about that interplay and what made you maybe pivot a little bit or change a little bit in your direction and kind of the students that you're working with now at the graduate level?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:10:36]:
Yeah, it was a career shift for me. It is happening in mathematics as a whole that we are finding increased application of mathematics in just about every field. Data analytics and data science being sort of the venue for using mathematics to solve problems everywhere. So I've already mentioned healthcare administration and business analytics. These are places where mathematics has not always had a strong foothold, but rather more business focused classes. And I think what we're seeing all across the globe is parts of industry recognizing that the management of data is increasingly important. And that is a nice segue to my math skills, because math is a critical component of data analytics, but it's not the only one. So what this program did that was somewhat revolutionary on campus was have these interdisciplinary courses that you could have a strong math core, but the degree is not about mathematics.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:11:30]:
And so for me personally, it was a convenient place for me to use my mathematics skills, transition into a place where I could speak more intellectually, more intelligently about data analytics and data science. And also I've learned a lot about healthcare administration and business analytics in my role here, which is something I've never had training in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]:
Now, as you think back to your own graduate school journey, you think about the journeys of the graduate students that you're working with now. What are some tips that you might offer to other individuals thinking about graduate school, whether it be in mathematics, data analytics, or any other field that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:10]:
Yeah, I will say my answer to this is to do the opposite of only going to your classes and sitting through lectures and doing homework. That is the most insular, I will say introverted approach, which is my default approach. So I sympathize with it. But the path to success is making contact with everyone you can. That means as you're thinking about your current degree and where you'd Go after, look at what industry is wanting. Look at the skills that your potential employers will want. Talk to your faculty. You'll get a sense of what they think it looks like to be successful in this field.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:43]:
And maybe most importantly, talk to the people ahead of you in the program. If you're in a two year program, talk to the students who've already been there for a year. See what their struggles were, see what they wish they had known through their first year about navigating various systems and don't struggle in silence. Particularly in our degree and in our university as a whole, we have all sorts of support mechanisms. If you are struggling either academically or financially or personally or with a disability that you may have just noticed or went undiagnosed, do not keep that information to yourself. Find someone who can help. And here, and I think generally at most higher ed institutions, there are people there whose sole job is to help you with that. So be public, talk to people, figure out who can help and take advantage of those services.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:36]:
Great advice and definitely something we've talked about on the show before is that advocacy that you have to have for yourself and you have to be willing to open up and ask for assistance. The piece that Cam mentioned about, even disability services, veterans services, you know, there are many different services that are on campus and sometimes you as a student may say to yourself that you don't want to say anything because you feel like you're going to be stigmatized. Don't do that. Step into it. Ask for the help up front. You might never use it, but at least you have the resource. You've made the contact. You're a known quantity and they are there if you need them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]:
It doesn't mean that they're going to go out and out you to everybody on campus that they are going to do what you need to be able to be successful and they're not going to know how to help you if you don't advocate for yourself. So definitely make sure that you take advantage of that and ask for those things up front. And even as you're looking at schools, you can start asking those questions up front to be able to make sure that you have those things ready for yourself on day one or maybe it's your second term or beyond. It's when you need it. So great points. Thank you, Cam. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for sharing your journey and for allowing others a little glimpse into what you experience, but also what you're currently experiencing with other students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:03]:
And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:15:05]:
Thanks very much, Chris. I was glad to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:07]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].