Resilience: Human Rights in Fashion and Entertainment

On this episode of The Founder's Sandbox, Brenda speaks with Shivani Honwad – founder of her own law firm, who specializes in immigration and business law for the creative industries.  Shivani is a business and immigration lawyer, and trailblazer in supporting the Freelance and Free Act, as well as a professor at NYU LA campus teaching Entrepreneurship for creatives. 

“I could not keep hearing it and not do anything about it” Shivani says, speaking about immigration as a major issue for freelance fashion workers.  Shivani set out to get smarter. Ten 10 years later, The Law Firm of Shivani Honwad, LLC, focuses primarily on immigration and business law for companies in the fashion, tech, beauty and entertainment realms.

You can find out more about Shivani at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/shivani-honwad-

http://www.shivanilaw.com

Find some of my guest’s content here :

Laws “the freelance and free act”

https://www.nyc.gov/site/dca/about/freelance-isnt-free-act.page

 

 

Transcript:

00:04
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01:01
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01:18
Welcome back to the Founder's Sandbox. I am Brenda McCabe, your host. This is a monthly podcast in which I reach entrepreneurs, business owners, who are going to learn about building resilient, purpose-driven, and sustainable businesses with great corporate governance.

01:38
I like to assist the entrepreneurs in building these scalable, well-governed and resilient business. And what I do with my guests is they tell their origin story about how they've built their own practices. And we'll get to the origin story of my guest this month, Shivani Honwad. Shivani and I have known each other for many years. She was bi-coastal in New York and Los Angeles. We met actually in the Los Angeles.

02:06
Los Angeles Venture Association, LAVA. It has a women affinity group. And she was eagerly contributing to some of the material and programs that we put on for women business owners, actually startups in the LA ecosystem. So I wanna thank you Shivani for joining me this month and the founder Sandbox. Thank you, Brenda. Thank you. So.

02:35
You own your own law firm, the law firm of Shivani Honwad. And it was originally based in New York. I don't know whether you operate nationally, but I'd love you to kind of repeat your origin story when I met you the first time in one of the women in lava. It was a small gathering. And it struck me your story was fascinating, because you were

03:04
working for a law firm in New York, but it was in your social life. You were, you know, out for drinks in the evenings and you would often be approached by women who were in the fashion industry, so models, and inevitably over a drink or maybe not a drink, they would end up using some of your free services. What was that? What were they asking your advice on, Shivani? And with that, we're going to get started on your origin story.

03:32
Thank you. Yeah, sure. So, you know, I was in my twenties in New York City and as one does in New York City, I would often go out. So I, at the time, was working in criminal law with a firm and civil litigation. But so I would go out with my friends. You know, I went to NYU, so I had a lot of friends in the city. And, you know, these models kept approaching me and they were like, hey, I heard you're a lawyer. I need help.

04:00
And I was like, oh, did you get arrested or did something happen like that? And they were like, no. And I kept hearing stories of how they were working for these modeling agencies. Most of the people that approached me were international models and their passports or their visas or something like their paperwork was being withheld so that they didn't really have freedom to travel and then not only that, they wouldn't be paid out. So.

04:25
they would model for days, weeks, sometimes months at a time, and be paid $0. And the agencies were just, there was just a lot of abuse in the industry. And so they kept asking for help. And at the time, I didn't really understand enough about the industry to know how pervasive this was. But I started looking into it because it wasn't just one model approaching me. It was like dozens of models over the course of a few weeks, if not maybe a few months.

04:54
that kept asking me for help. And it got to a point. I imagine your name got around, right? Well, because I wasn't doing anything yet. It was just that I was the only lawyer at all of these events, right? And I mean, this is also pre-Me too. So the other part of it was, is the lawyers they were going to, some of the male lawyers unfortunately, were also taking advantage of them and being like, hey, I'll help you, but you have to be my date to this event like Saturday night.

05:20
So they would see me in my 20s and a woman and woman of color, and they would just be like, oh, OK, so she won't sexually harass me or she won't threaten me in any way. So I think I was seen as a safer space for that. So I think that's why people approach me at parties. And then it got to a point where I just I couldn't really keep hearing it and not do anything about it.

05:46
And so I did some research into it. And then I found lawyers. I knew some in my network that knew how to help them. And the biggest issue, it seemed, was the immigration part, where it was like, if models come into the US under what's called an O-1 visa, and typically it's tied to whoever their agent or employer is if they come in under that route. But if they do it, there's other ways they can do it to have a little more freedom, or they can get their green cards so they have freedom. And that's the EB1A route.

06:16
And so I figured out an attorney who did that and he had agreed to like train me in how to do that. So eventually like I started my own law firm focusing on that. And it was just to help these models get some freedom. And then, you know, I expanded from there to doing some IP and contracts because once I helped them and get got them more stable, they were like, okay, well now I'm doing these ventures and I want you to negotiate these contracts and I want you to be my lawyer for this. Like you were great. So that's how my law firm kind of came to be.

06:44
And it was just 10 years actually, since I've opened it this past August. Oh my goodness. Yeah. It was just, it started out at this crazy need of just people needing help and to be in a safe space. And the irony of it is that I originally went to law school to kind of work on human trafficking issues. Oh my goodness. And I never thought I would see it. Like I never thought I'd work in fashion, but I mean, the work I was doing was tied to that because a lot of the models were essentially held in debt bondage.

07:14
of being tied to these agencies not being paid out and saying like, you owe us this much money so we're not gonna pay you or what have you. So I think that's how it's still, I got to do what I went to law school for, but in a different way than I had initially thought. Like I thought I would work for the UN or something like, but it was so hard to get into the UN. I applied nonstop originally, but like I got to do this. And like we changed some laws around in this space. Like,

07:43
The Boston Globe did like the Spotlight team did a piece on this and like some of my clients that I was also interviewed for. And then, you know, we met with officials in city hall. And so the freelances and free act, which got passed in New York also applies to models. So if an agency, you know, gets payment from a client to the agency and they don't pay the model within 30 days, the state of New York will actually fine the agency.

08:10
So the models now have recourse to collect payment faster. Excellent. So I would ask you later to give me this law, and we'll put it in the show notes. Because this is amazing. You have been a trailblazer in a serendipitous way. You started out, or while you're studying law, you thought you would work in sexual traffic, and you did not, or human trafficking. And you were doing criminal law.

08:38
ended up actually representing fashion models, immigration issues, as well as eventually venturing into assisting them in their contract management and IP. So amazing story. And I loved one thing that you did say. You said, I couldn't not do anything, right? I researched it and I just could not just let this go. So.

09:08
Very, very resilient, Shivani. How did that experience or others inform you to actually move all the way out here to Los Angeles and set up practice? And tell us a little bit about that. So I don't think you and I have actually talked about this before. But originally, what brought me out to LA was some of the work that I did here for the models. I was recruited by some organizations in the e-sports area.

09:38
Um, you know, e-sports is actually pretty big out here in California. And, um, there was some e-sports organizations that wanted me to help implement essentially policies and basic human rights for the gamers, because, um, kind of what we had done for the models in New York, um, there was really no regulations a couple of years ago. It's still pretty bare minimum, but.

10:02
for the e-sports gamers. And you have all these essentially mostly teenage boys, there are female gamers as well, but in the e-sports tournaments, and they were just taking a ton of speed or drinking nonstop Monster Energy drinks, and they were just dying, quite frankly, they were under all this pressure to perform. And again, there was really no regulation around it. And their contracts were devoid of like...

10:28
just basic human rights of like, okay, you can get a bathroom break, you get time to eat, you get time to sleep. So originally I was recruited out here to kind of work on those issues. And I will say, if you've never been to an e-sports tournament and like in a stadium, I advise going, it's an experience. Wow. This is like a trillion dollar industry and it like traverses all socioeconomic, like really like it.

10:56
It just transcends all lines. It's just an incredible scene to experience, just the fandom of it all. So I was in that space for a little bit originally and it just, it was a very chaotic environment that I just didn't really want to be in anymore. Right. And then, yeah, I just- And you were doing this from

11:26
from your own practice? At that time, you'd set up your practice, so you just recently celebrated 10 years of your law firm, Shivani Hanwad. Yeah. You were actually serving the e-sports from your law firm. Yeah, so I was doing some contract stuff. I was doing visas for the gamers, things like that. So I was getting more familiar with it. But it was because the issues paralleled.

11:53
basically what was happening with models in New York with the sports gamers in California. So that's kind of how the whole thing started. And then, like I said, it wasn't really for me, but then I had made some inroads here. I got connected to Lava and some other organizations. And then I got offered the position to teach at NYU's LA campus. So that's kind of anchored me here in Los Angeles now. But yeah, so I still do kind of the same stuff and I work.

12:22
you know, same. The thing with immigration law is it's federal. So my clients are all over the world and a lot of my clients also in the fashion, creative industries, their contracts are mostly like for New York and California based things. And like I'm admitted to practice law in both New York and California. So they just email me, like we do Zooms or, you know, calls and stuff and go through stuff. So yeah, I serve clients all over the world basically.

12:51
position you have with New York Stern's LA campus? It's not Stern. So it's New York University. Okay. I went to Stern undergrad. Yes. And then, but New York University's Los Angeles campus is just a general campus. It's not a specific school. Okay. So we serve students from all schools. And actually we have multiple global campuses. So we have two other degree granting campuses. One is NYU Abu Dhabi.

13:21
and one is NYU Shanghai. So this is what come to our LA program. It's an undergrad study abroad only program. So it's one semester and they come mainly from our New York campus. Some are, we also do have a lot of students that come from our Abu Dhabi campus and our Shanghai campus. And then they might be as part of other programs too. And so they come out here, they spend a semester, they, we work on getting them internships.

13:48
And they just kind of see, like most of them want to go into the entertainment industries in, you know, whether it's media, like screenwriting, directing, producing, or music. So they're just trying to see if they like the LA environment, make some inroads for if they want to like pursue their career in LA or New York or what's better for them. So that's the program that we have out here right now. And like we're growing actively because the campus opened in fall of 2019.

14:15
closed promptly in spring of 2020. And then just reopened fully again last year. All right. And do you teach a specific subject? Well, yeah. So the course that I teach, it's basically structured around like entrepreneurship or creatives. So I bring in kind of my business and my legal backgrounds. My, the director of the NYU LA program is amazing. And she gave me carte blanche to kind of design a course.

14:44
She was like, think of them as your future clients. What do you wish they knew? So that's kind of what we designed. So we like include like how to pitch, how to develop a deck and then how to pitch that deck. I also do a negotiation simulation because oftentimes these students have never like negotiated a deal before. So I go over, you know, what are basic deal terms that you should at least understand and if nothing else have these in a contract. And then I design a whole simulation and like put them in groups.

15:13
and give them mock contracts and they have to negotiate it out. And it's really fun because every single time we do it, they all start with the same contract, the same roles, and everything. And then they all present at the end of class what their deal terms were. And no group has ever had the same deal terms. And the reason for that is because it's also to show them that you all come in with your own biases and preferences and experiences and values.

15:41
Yes. It doesn't really matter what the other people are doing. It's just like, what makes sense to you? What do you feel comfortable with? Because if you feel comfortable with the deal and you're okay performing for this rate or with these terms or whatever, then you're going to be fine. And so, because then I always ask them, did you want someone else's deal? And they might say that they wanted parts of it. They're like, oh, I didn't know I could add that. Sometimes if we're doing an artist contract negotiation,

16:10
my female students will always be like, they'll add in hair and makeup budget. And then the male students didn't know like, oh, that's a thing or like, how much is hair and mica? And like women know that it should be expensive. So they're like, oh, I could do that. So like, it's things like that that come up cause I'm like, you can add in, if it's not written there, you can add stuff in. Like I give you flexibility. And they're like, okay, I'll think about that next time. But because they negotiated out, they felt heard.

16:40
So they're comfortable with the deal that they agreed to because they felt like they were heard, they felt valued. And so they were fine with their deal overall. So again, although they may have picked up some things that they would like for next time, no one's really been outright like, my deal was terrible. Like everyone's kind of felt like kind of comfortable because they get time to talk it through. And I think that's like the biggest takeaway is like, as long as like the other side feels heard,

17:09
you can agree to a situation where all parties kind of essentially win and can work together well. And thank you, this is fascinating. So you have an entrepreneurship program at the New York University's Los Angeles campus. There's another campus in Abu Dhabi and Shanghai. And so it's a year abroad. So is it cross-cultural mix and what students? Yes, but.

17:38
Sorry, I'm just gonna clarify. So it's not a year abroad for Abu Dhabi and Shanghai. They're actually degree granting campuses. Okay. So the Abu Dhabi campus is actually a really incredible program. It's a four year program. Okay. And it only has like a 2% admission rate cause tuition is free at that campus. So they're completely separate programs but they're all under the NYU umbrella. But I'm just saying that students come to our LA campus for a semester. It's a semester, right? Yeah, for a semester just to kind of do a semester abroad essentially.

18:09
And how many entrepreneurs have gone through your program? So, okay, so let me also clarify, sorry. I teach the Entrepreneurship for Creatives course, but like our entire curriculum here is centered around the entertainment industry. So there's a movie marketing class, there's a screenwriting class, there's pitching your project class, there's a history of film class. So it's all centered around entertainment. There's music courses, there's stuff like that.

18:38
The entrepreneur part is just kind of what I do because like, that's my background. And also like if you're a creative, you are an entrepreneur in the industry, like you are your brand. So mine's the only one, my course is the only one focused on that. So it's not that we have entrepreneurs here. They all want to be in the entertainment industry, but it's part of being in the entertainment industry, you are an entrepreneur. So just to clarify that a little bit, that it's not a separate program. Excellent. And thank you for that, you know, clarifying.

19:08
And I would like you to speak about your own new venture. So not only do you have your own law practice, you have recently started an initiative that is the South Asian Creator Collective. Tell us a little bit more about this. Yeah, so we launched that out of the NYU LA campus. Okay. Because I just found out like that my South Asian students

19:38
They, you know, we have only a few, usually every semester, but they just didn't have the community that some of the other creative communities had because typically South Asian families, your parents want you to be a doctor or an engineer and not really like, okay, you can have a music hobby or be a dancer as a hobby, but not have that as a career. So there was a lot of lack of support. And then I represent some South Asian artists.

20:06
whether they're writers or dancers or creators, producers, things like that in New York and LA. And so they also obviously would say the same thing. So I kind of wanted to bring everyone together to not only create a community for like my clients, my friends who are in the industry, but also to help build that bridge for my South Asian students to have like, you know, mentors in the industry. So we had our first meeting earlier this, a couple of months ago.

20:32
What came out of that was really cool that I brought together my friends and clients. They've already started collabing together on stuff. And then Brenda through you and Ty, I met people who are possibly interested in investing in South Asian creators projects. So we're looking at doing a possible pitch event in the spring to have our creators pitch projects and then to have investors possibly invest in them. So I like the idea of just bringing people together to kind of create this community

21:01
and to help each other kind of, you know, use everyone's skill sets just to create a better whole together. I love it. And I was absolutely thrilled that you were at the Thai So Cal's recent event with the preview and a screening of Show Her the Money, as well as we had our final.

21:22
competition for five women-owned businesses. So thank you for joining us there. We did that at the Noah House in Hollywood, of which I'm a member, and look forward to hearing more about the PitchFest that is probably gonna be in the spring of next year. Hopefully. Noah's crazy though about that, show her the money screening. I didn't realize how many people I knew in the film. Like I knew...

21:48
Liz, like from this organization that we were part of in New York, Dreamers and Doors, were like mainly female entrepreneurs. Like I knew her when she was starting Sogal. And so it was so crazy to see how far they've come. And then like I knew so many other people in the film. And I was like, wait, I knew them back then. I didn't know they were in this film. And like Naseem was in there. Like there was just so many people that I was saw in the film that I was like, wait, I know these people personally. So it was just a really cool screening to see. And to see so many.

22:18
people that I've known over the years, just in how far they've come over the years too. Was really cool. Yeah, initially it's a movement now. So initially Show Her the Money was gonna be shown in 50 US cities. It's gone viral. I think we're up in to the 200s and yeah, it's a movement. So thank you for being, and it's a small world, right? Oh, completely. We all end up, yes, there are no borders. So yeah, thank you.

22:45
And I look forward to that launch and I would be happy to promote it here in the founder sandbox as well as on my YouTube channel. You know, this switch gears. I want to I initially I've known you for years, but I really wanted you to come on to the founder sandbox because not only your story of not resiliency, but to the move across from the from LA to from New York to LA. But

23:14
you're passionate clearly about resilience. And I am also passionate. And it's the type of work I do with with founders as they're scaling their businesses just working on this resiliency, I say muscles. You recently hosted during LA's tech week, about two weeks back, a session on resiliency. Tell us a little bit about it and why you wanted to spearhead that.

23:42
Um, so I did my first LA tech week event last year, and that was a great learning experience. We did it all about pivoting and we had like 400 RSVPs for like 75 spots because I did at NYU's LA campus and we're small. So we had a fire martial capacity of 75. So it was just like overwhelming. But the original reason I launched that event was because

24:09
Um, when I looked at the original LA tech week calendar, all I saw were men on that calendar. And I only, if I saw a panel with a woman, it was like one woman and like five men. And I was like, I have so many incredible friends and clients that are women doing incredible things in the tech space and they never get the platform to talk about this. So I wanted a female forward event. Um, so I did that one and then that one went really well. So then everyone was like,

24:37
Okay, what are you doing for tech week this year? So that's how I was like, okay, so everyone really liked the pivoting one because they said they learned something from it and it was something everyone could relate to. So then, you know, as we're coming out of COVID, a lot of people have felt burnout and have felt the need to kind of just like reinvent themselves or just kind of rise from the ashes to a degree. So then this year's theme, I was like, I feel like I wanna do something around resilience.

25:04
because it's about like weathering the storm and coming out and like, you know, thriving again. And so again, I did it female forward. But what was really incredible is a lot of my male clients and friends also came and like others that I didn't know. And like all of them just like loved the event. And they're like, this has been the most informative event I've ever been to. And I said that at the beginning of my event, I was like, you know, this is like, yes, I, you know, my panel is all women, but

25:33
we can't change the ratio of where only 2% of women receive VC funding if we don't have men in the room, because you need everyone at the table to help change that statistic. And so by sharing the stories of like, again, they were my clients and friends, but they all run like incredible organizations. Like Steph Rizal was one of our speakers. She's an incredible singer songwriter. She just wrote a book for creatives and self-care.

26:00
I had Jazzy Collins, who's the first black person to win an Emmy for casting. And she has a production house called Force Perspective. I had Mickey Reynolds, who used to be the CEO, co-founder of Grid 110, and is now head of programs at Slosnikov, a VC fund. And then I had May Muna, who is amazing. She's a refugee. And she started two organizations, one called the Tia Foundation to help refugees in the US. And then she started this...

26:28
restaurant called Flavors From Afar where refugee chefs essentially have their menus every month featured at the restaurant. So like I got to feature these incredible stories and founders and you know, just how they like, May Muna, her Flavors From Afar restaurant is now Michelin like rated, but she was fired from a Carl's Jr. That's like her story. She's like, yeah, I was fired from Carl's Jr. and now I have a Michelin restaurant.

26:54
So where you start and kind of what happens, it's like you just have to keep going. And all of them kind of had stories like that of being like, you know, dismissed somewhere early in their career and just like, keep like, just keep going. And like, Jazzy too, like, you know, she was just like dismissed for being usually the only black female in any room. And now she's the first black person to win an Emmy earlier this year. And it's just like how, you know, yes, in casting, sorry. But yeah, and how that like just

27:23
those stories of how that rises. And I think a lot of people learn from that because a lot of them were just like, you just have to keep trying, or you just have to try something. And if it doesn't work, you know, go a different direction, but fail faster was kind of the message that they were putting out there that like you'll still figure it out and you just have to like have a really supportive community around you. And as long as you have that, like you can just like find the strength to keep going.

27:50
Tudos to you. This is a podcast that is absolutely filled with lots of nuggets, your own story in New York, coming out to LA, you're teaching your own entrepreneurship journey and your passion with respect to the underrepresented, right? And actually putting on events.

28:16
and Female Forward as well as last year in pivoting is thank you for being part of the ecosystem here in Los Angeles and next year I wonder what you're going to do in LA Tech Week. I know this week was pretty burned out still so we'll see. We have time. So you know I'd like to give you the opportunity to provide how my listeners can contact you or how's it best to contact you.

28:46
Um, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. My Instagram is just my name, Shivani Hanwad. Um, my email is just shivani at shivanilaw.com. So I guess any of those are kind of the best ways to find me or connect with me.

29:01
Okay, and we're going to shift gears back to this sandbox. You are a guest here to the founder sandbox. And again, my mission is to build resilient, scalable, and purpose-driven companies. So I always like to ask each of my guests what the word means, resilience, purpose-driven, and scalable, sustainable businesses. Each of my guests has a different meaning. And it's

29:30
actually one of the highlights of my podcast for me. Okay, so am I doing all three? Yes, you will. Okay. You already talked a little bit about resilience, but what does it mean to you? What does resilience mean to you? Shivani Ha. I think resilience just means to me, it's just like to persevere, to keep going. And I think all of us have our own challenges, obstacles and hardships. And I think finding the strength to just kind of get through those.

29:59
Because you don't always get over everything that you kind of maybe get through in your life, but getting through it is, I guess, the way to look at it in my mind. And then just kind of still making stuff happen, even if it's hard, is the way I look at resilience. To persevere, still making it happen. Thank you. Purpose-driven. You're very purpose-driven. How many back? If we were to scale you.

30:28
Well, purpose-driven, I just find it like, you know, just quick tangent, but like what originally drew me into law school and like wanting to work in the human trafficking space was like, you know, I was caught in these monsoon floods in India when I was working in Bollywood. And I learned about human trafficking and that's kind of what I wanted to work on. And I have worked on it in different ways, like, you know, changing that law in Delaware and then my work on the TVPGA as part of the New York State Trafficking Coalition.

30:58
So I have worked on that. And I just think that's always been kind of my, I guess, anchor point in a way of like a lot of the work or the pro bono work even that I do through my law firm. And part of why I've kept my law firm is because now no one tells me how I get to spend my time or money. I wanna work on representing children that have been trafficked and do those cases pro bono. I can do that. No one's like, no, you need more billable hours. Like it's up to me.

31:26
So I have a couple of nonprofits that I work with that I represent kids that have been trafficked to get them either status here or just like to a safer spot. And I really love that work. So the work I do with the creatives and everything, it kind of funds and provides me the ability to do this other work. So I think purpose-driven is just like figuring out what it is that you're passionate about and what your anchor point is. Like, why are you doing this? Like, what is it that's getting you through and what gets you out of bed?

31:55
Like I get really excited to like work on my clients' cases because I think they're doing really incredible things. Yes. So I think purpose-driven is just like that, like finding what you're passionate about and like how you can have a positive impact in the community. I have goosebumps. I had, you went off on a little tangent. That was a very important tangent and as it is your anchor point. So thank you for sharing, Shivani. Sustainable growth.

32:23
Okay, what's sustainable? So this is something I'm working on now. Yes. I think, you know, for me, I was an accidental law firm founder, you know, that like I kept meeting these people and like that needed help and like I, I never really thought I would start my own law firm. And so I think it's been a journey of figuring out how to like run a law firm and grow it and all of this and like.

32:48
I'm getting to that point where it's like, okay, what am I doing? Am I still doing this? Am I merging it with something else or someone else? And I'm very fortunate to have really great partners. I'm really fortunate to have the opportunity to these couple of law firms have offered for me to merge my law firm with theirs, join them, all of that. So it's figuring that part of it out. But I think, you know, to be sustainable or scalable, I think one thing, especially people who are type A like me,

33:17
that we struggle with is delegating. And that like finding, you know, you're not good at everything. You're not like, the first thing I did was hire a tax guy. Cause I was like, I don't do this. Like I don't know how to do anything tax wise, but it's just like figuring out like, you know, what you're good at and what you're not good at instead of trying to learn everything, figuring out how to delegate or finding team members to help you with the stuff you're not good at. Because I think a lot of people, especially founders try and hold on to everything.

33:46
And that's kind of what leads to burnout because if you're trying to do stuff that you're just not great at, you just always are gonna feel defeated. But if you have other people that are good at that stuff, supporting you in that, and you get to focus on the stuff you're really good at, then that's gonna energize you because then you're being more successful because you're doing the things you're great at. And then you're being supported still by other people. So you have that mental bandwidth to keep doing and keep running in the right direction.

34:14
what the stuff that you're passionate about, you're good at, what you're trying to grow. So I think to be sustainable or scalable, learning how to delegate is a really important skillset that it takes some time and emotional bandwidth to be able to be okay with letting go of something. Cause like most founders, like their companies are their babies. Like they're growing it. And you know, it's just so hard. It's like saying like,

34:44
It's like you're finding a nanny for your child. Like, okay, I'm okay with letting this person do this part of my business. So. Excellent analogy. And it also probably has to do with your own awareness, right? And the maturity of recognizing there are certain things that I just don't wanna do, but I don't like it or I'm not good at it. And the maturity and awareness that it's better done by someone else, right?

35:13
Yes. And I'm also self-employed and, you know, pushing through. And I have also delegated many things. I'm having a fantastic team, the producer of my podcast, and I let them do and tell, I follow their orders to tell you the truth. But you need that sometimes. Sometimes it's easier if someone just tells you what you need to do and then they're just handling the rest.

35:42
Um, and thank you for joining me in the, the, um, founder sandbox podcast this month, you know, um, to my listeners, if you liked this episode with Shivani Han what sign up for the monthly release, um, where founders, business owners, corporate directors and professional service providers provide their own origin stories. And they tell their stories about resilience purpose driven and scalable.

36:11
Thank you again. You can listen to these episodes on any major podcast streaming service. Signing off for this month. Thank you. Thanks, Brenda.