Ep.129 Prison saved my life; It's never too late to change course

In this conversation, Dr. Joshua Caraballo, an industrial organizational psychologist, shares his insights on the importance of employee well-being, the role of nonprofits, and his personal journey of overcoming adversity. He discusses how his upbringing in a Jehovah's Witness household shaped his identity and beliefs, leading to struggles with cancer, addiction, and incarceration. Through his experiences, he emphasizes the power of hope and transformation and the importance of aligning work with personal values.

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Connect with Dr. Joshua: https://www.drjosh.solutions/ 

Connect with Sabine: https://www.sabinekvenberg.com/

 

Takeaways:

 

Industrial-organizational psychology focuses on human behavior in the workplace.

Employee well-being extends beyond the workplace into personal life.

Nonprofits often prioritize people over profit, leading to greater fulfillment.

Aligning work with personal values can enhance job satisfaction.

Overcoming adversity is possible, regardless of the circumstances.

Childhood beliefs can significantly impact adult identity and choices.

Prison can serve as a catalyst for personal transformation.

Hope exists even in the darkest situations; it's never too late to change.

Self-love and acceptance are crucial for personal growth.

Sharing personal stories can help others feel less alone.

 

Chapters

 

00:00 Understanding Industrial Organizational Psychology

03:07 The Role of Nonprofits in Employee Wellbeing

06:12 Profit vs. Purpose: The Nonprofit Perspective

08:58 Personal Journey: Overcoming Adversity

12:00 The Impact of Childhood Beliefs on Identity

15:06 Finding Redemption: The Prison Experience

18:12 Lessons Learned: Hope and Transformation

21:03 Advice for Overcoming Life's Challenges

 

Transcript:

Sabine Kvenberg 
My guest today is Dr. Joshua Caraballo. We just discussed it as we started. How do we pronounce it in Spanish as Caraballo? So here you go. That's how I say it. How are you today, Dr. Josh?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
I'm doing very well. Thank you for asking Sabine and thank you for your time today. It's such an honor and pleasure to be on your show.

Sabine Kvenberg 
Well, I can't wait to hear more about your story and what you do and who you help. But let me ask you, what is an industrial organizational psychologist?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
What a wonderful question. It really is. Well, if it feels better to you and those who are listening, you could just say business psychologist or business psychology, as we sometimes refer to it as just to simplify things. But industrial organization or I.O. psychology is another way to say it as well, encompasses so many different facets. so instead of telling you everything,

Sabine Kvenberg
Yeah, it's a mouthful.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
that is underneath this huge umbrella. In fact, I think last time I checked, there's at least 24 different buckets, if you will, that you can concentrate on when it comes to IO psychology. And what I like to tell people, it's pretty much the simplest way to talk about it is anything having to do with human behavior in the workplace, with the caveat that we are not clinical psychologists. So we're not coming in and diagnosing people with ailments.

from a mental health perspective or working with leaderships to determine what types of mental health programs need to be instituted. That would be a clinical psychologist who engages in that and maybe even going as far as to diagnosing people with very specific sort of

Sabine Kvenberg 
you

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD (02:11.778)
diagnoses that would need a clinician to help them, you know, maybe get through or even try to ameliorate some of those negative symptoms. Instead, what we're doing, work at the individual, the group, and the institutional level with an eye towards so many different things. But what I really like to focus on is employee wellbeing.

which obviously goes beyond just the workplace because the wellbeing considerations and human flourishing is another way to put that, isn't just about what you do at work. So a lot of times what we do in the IO world actually spills over into your actual life outside. Another element of that would be employee engagement. And there are many different facets of engagement on how to measure it.

and how to help people in your organizations to be engaged. But again, I go with there are so many different ways to apply these principles outside of work, especially if you want to engage in life more deeply, this is something, these are some elements and models that can be utilized. So I'll stop there with those two big buckets, but yeah.

Sabine Kvenberg 
I can see that is probably a very, very broad topic. So the question is, who is hiring you? Is it just like bigger company that wanted to improve their culture, their culture, or is it smaller company or individuals?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Yeah, you're hitting it right on the nail, so to speak. it's, yes, all of those things are viable opportunities for IO psychologists. A lot of times we do work as organizational consultants. We could do that internally or externally. For me, I started out consulting here and there, but it never materialized into something that actually took up 40 hours a week. And so what I ended up doing for my trajectory,

was working for nonprofits. I've always had this sort of affinity with the nonprofit mission and mission orientation, generally speaking, because it makes me feel much more fulfilled. This is also part of what we teach and what we learn about implementing well-being and flourishing models into the workplace. When you can align...

Sabine Kvenberg 
Okay, so why would it make you more fulfilled when you work with a non-profit organization?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Well, it's not a guarantee. let me use that as a caveat. You could find yourself just as fulfilled in a for-profit organization. In my experience, and this is not a research assessment, I have found that being in an organization that is nonprofit, when removing that profit motive, has been very helpful for me. I have come across organizations that make decisions based on trying to increase their profit motive.

And that to me does not resonate with my own values. And I find that although it is a necessity, I get it and I understand it. If I could avoid doing that sort of work, I tend to find a lot more creative expression, more value and more alignment with who I am.

Sabine Kvenberg 
I totally get it. I totally get it because especially when we see some of the companies out there, for profit companies, it's nothing against making profit. We all do. We live from profits. That's our bread and butter. But I think the difference sometimes is what I see is when companies create profits,

on the backs of people, not in a healthy way, of nature, our planet, and the animal kingdom. And I just talked about that with another guest, actually. I don't know how we got to that point, but I believe when, and there are the beautiful companies out there, for-profit companies who have that in mind, who have people first, people before profit.

And truly, I believe if you have that in mind, you still can be so profitable, wealthy and create beautiful things. It's just how you, what take you take on the whole situation. So, and I think that probably also goes in alignment with what you teach and do.

Because I believe when people are happier in their organization, when they feel acknowledged and valued and not being taken advantage of and get their fair share. Because at the end, if they would not be there working for the big on the top guy, nothing would be happening, right? So what's your take on that?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Mm.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Mmm.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
All right.

Yeah. I love what you said. There's so much gold in those statements that you just said. And I agree with you. think when there's a profit motive, more than likely, what's happening is there is an incentive to really extract as much as possible from people, places, and things. And if you think about it,

the underlying mechanism at place is really squeezing out the most value. But the difference that can take place here, and what I love about nonprofits, is instead of squeezing out all the most value that you possibly can for your bottom line, it can be about squeezing out the most value for your people, or for the people that you serve, or for the people that are internal to your organization.

for the mission and the vision to make sure that everything that is done, every decision that's made, every initiative that is put into place is all about that same thing. How do we provide value from this? And by removing that the fact that you're trying to make more money and increase your bottom line, it's not that money considerations go away completely in a nonprofit world, but...

if you're not making a profit year over year, it's not as serious as if you're in a for-profit entity. So that to me is just such a wonderful to be able to get away from the fact that this project, as an example, touches the hearts and souls of people in X generation, you know, just using an example, and it has changed their behaviors for the better by this percentage.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD (09:29.26)
However, it wasn't a profitable program. That still might need to be scrutinized in the nonprofit world. However, what ends up happening is, okay, how do we look at gaining more grants, more individuals who can provide additional funds in some way? How do we partner with other entities to try to solve for some of the needs of this program? Because we see the benefit.

of it moving our mission and vision forward. That to me is like the purpose of what business actually should be. Although I want to leave space for the entities that do otherwise. It's just as I get older, and it's not just about age, there's a whole swath of younger people who also identify this way. We want to feel value in the work that we do.

We want to feel that it aligns with our purpose, even if it's not a complete alignment. It's just a partial alignment. That is fine, because we know it's hard, especially these days, to find that complete 100 % alignment, unless you build your own organization, which is always a viable thing for you to do as well.

Sabine Kvenberg 
Mm-hmm.

Sabine Kvenberg 
Absolutely. And that's why I work a lot with entrepreneurs who follow that calling, that passion, and that serving heart that they have to serve others. And I think there is a good, is always a good balance of the entrepreneurial spirits and individuals and those who work for a company. There's some people who are just more comfortable. They don't want their own company and that's okay too.

But what they all want, what I've learned throughout my life, everybody wants to be valued. And those companies, for example, there are a few out there who have their employees participate in their shares or whatnot, so many different ways. So you feel, this is part of my company, I'm working for that. So I make a difference. And I truly believe.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Yes.

Sabine Kvenberg 
that when more company would do that, actually they would be better off. Give a little bit more to your people and give them the feeling they contribute for a greater purpose for that matter and your company will flourish. But let's go to talk about your book. You wrote a book that said, I'm not dead yet.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Right.

Sabine Kvenberg 
What inspired you to write that book?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Yeah, so thanks for bringing it up. I come from, to take you all the way back and not to spend too much time, but I think it's very important to bring you to my childhood. I was brought up in a Jehovah's Witness household, which taught me from a very young age that being gay was wrong, bad, and that God, in this case, his name being Jehovah, as taught to me, would eliminate me and anyone just like me from the earth.

when the great tribulation of Armageddon would come. Some of this might sound a little silly to some people, but it might resonate with others who happen to be religious. My point is not to knock religion here. I'm not here to say religion is bad, but I am here to acknowledge that that can affect people in a very negative way. What ends up happening, and this is a psychological principle as well as a personal.

sort of principle that has occurred, you start to internalize those ideals, those belief systems, because it's all you know. And it truly can more than likely affect the trajectory of your life when you internalize hate, negativity, especially when it's in regard to who you are and your very being. So that's exactly what happened with me. Although as all of that was occurring to me,

I had no idea why it was happening. At the age of 18 when I was able to leave my house, fly the coop so to speak, and do my own thing, it was only about six months later that I was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma in stage four, which for those who are not familiar with cancer, stage four is the final stage.

Sabine Kvenberg 
you

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Almost immediately when I found out this information, I had attributed it to me being punished because that was what I was taught. You act out in a certain way. You're allowed to have these thoughts, but you're never allowed to act on them. And once you do, there will be a punishment for you. And that was my punishment. so, you know, fast forward to where I am today. The cancer came back a second time. And then when I was deemed a...

about seven years later and all was said and done, you would think that that would be an indication for me to start flourishing and do all the things that would just constitute my well-being and increasing that as much as possible, but it wasn't. What ended up happening is I engaged in a deleterious cycle that was very, very harmful. And I started using drugs and alcohol and

as you might imagine, just things became worse and worse in my decision making and the people that I surrounded myself with all kind of like solidified me getting closer and closer to death. And I started to get in trouble with the law. And once I started to realize why these things were happening, getting to the underlying sort of mechanisms and causal factors,

And psychology was very helpful for me to understand those things. I had to square that away and I had to start undoing the harm that occurred. I also had to renegotiate the relationships that took place in my life. I had to square away my belief systems and who I was knowing that I had spent a good portion of my life trying to change myself, trying to avoid what was inevitable, which is

me being a gay man, but also understanding that that's just one part of who I am and there so many other beautiful aspects of my personality. But in order for me to allow all of those aspects to shine completely, I had to fall in love with myself. I had to renegotiate, like I said, and re-understand what God is and was and what my relationship to that

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
being is, as well as my family and the people who had called me friends during the first 20, 30 years of my life. That is all what is encapsulated in that book, that memoir that I wrote, because one of the most horrific things that happened to me outside of being diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma was actually going to prison. And that experience to me

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
On the one hand, I say to myself, well, it saved my life. It got me out from using drugs and alcohol. I had no choice but to sober up almost immediately. But that wasn't enough. That's not going to keep me away from drugs and alcohol and change me. What needed to happen was that internal sort of assessment and that longitudinal dedication.

Sabine Kvenberg 
it, did that happen while you were in prison that you have all of a sudden the time to first of all, being away from, from drugs and alcohol and then having the time to really start thinking, what am I doing? Were you able to start studying? So what was that time? How long were you in prison?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
I was sentenced for 16 months and I spent 14 months for good behavior. So yes, the answer is it definitely gave me the time and the space to contemplate, to think, to read, to study, to question. I wanna just make this a caveat here. It's like...

I had to go through this journey, if you will, in order to become who I am today. But I wouldn't recommend it. I don't think it's the best way to go about becoming a better person. For me, right, right. So I don't advocate for prison for anyone. There are exceptions to everything. There are atrocities that take place that are so, sad that we even have to talk about it.

Sabine Kvenberg 
No, everybody has their own path and that absolutely.

You

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
That's a reality and I think that's a place where it makes sense to put someone in prison. But that's not the majority of people who are in prison, are not murderers, child molesters, but those are the things that we think about, the most horrific sort of atrocities that exist in the world. But there's a whole bunch of other types of people who engage in

not so great behaviors like myself. And unfortunately, there isn't a route currently, or at least when I was going through this during 2010, 2011, that would help to rehabilitate persons like myself. It's more about the punishment than it is the rehabilitation. And that says a lot about our prison system and the way it operates. Now I know we can spend

Sabine Kvenberg 
That's another, totally other topic. Yes, yes, yes.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
yeah, right. But, you know, I tried to make the best of it as I possibly could, which meant that not only did I need to make the determination, but I had to do the work. And the work took a lot longer than just 14 months. know, coming out of prison was very important for me to start to reintegrate myself into society and also understand

what my sobriety was going to look like and how I was going to maintain that in the long haul. that all was touch and go, reading a lot. I decided to then get my doctorate after I came out. So, I mean, that was a huge sort of goal that I was able to accomplish, which I'm very proud of.

But a lot of the things that I learned during that time I was applying in real time. So I finally became sober, completely sober in 2013, which was the same year that I enrolled in doctoral school.

Sabine Kvenberg (20:53.526)
But you know, that shows me also that, yeah, there are situations where people get into prison, right? But then there are also people, they go right back where they started. And then there are others like yourself who sees this is an opportunity for me to change my life. And don't let that

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Right.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Yes. Yes.

Sabine Kvenberg 
past and that baggage hinder you to become your next greater self.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Absolutely, yes. And again, you don't need prison to show you that. I did. But what are the universal themes that can be extracted from my experiences so that other people can kind of learn from that and then adapt it as they wish? I love that. And that's part of the reason why I wrote this book is not everybody that reading it is going to be like, I know what prison life is like. No.

Sabine Kvenberg 
Right.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
but there will be elements of that story that you'll be able to say, okay, I see what he's getting at here. It's the learning lessons that took place. Two major, sorry.

Sabine Kvenberg 
So would you say that you wrote the book mainly for yourself to let this out, to write it? what was the inspiration? Or was it, I have to write it to help others to see ABC. What would that be?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Yeah, yeah, it's both. Like, I have to be super honest with myself, right? Part of this healing process is about getting my story and writing it and putting it out there. There is a selfish aspect to it, although I don't see all selfish aspects to be that. Like, there are good aspects to being selfish. Like, taking care of yourself is a selfish act, so to speak, but it's also a really great thing to do.

But balancing that out with the ability to assist and help people also is extremely important to me. In fact, I would say that's my primary reason for creating something like this, because think about it. I could just write something like this if I wanted to process it in real time, but never publish it or put it out there for other people. That's an additional step. In fact, there are psychological models that show that if you just take

pen to paper and write something out. Like if you're really upset with somebody, maybe somebody at work said something really nasty to you and you don't feel like it's appropriate to confront them about that for whatever reasons, maybe it's the big boss, you write a letter. Write a letter and it never needs to be published or sent to anyone and that is a very helpful thing to do. So I've known this from the beginning. So the extra step to really help other people be exposed to your story.

That's a scary thing.

Sabine Kvenberg 
Yeah, it sure is. And especially with the story and the history that you had, but you're so right. And we hear that and I experienced it myself, writing things down and even having a journal. It is so super important. And even sometimes in work when you have so many things in your head and you get in so

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
yeah.

Yes.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Yes.

Sabine Kvenberg 
Confused so buck down with things just writing it out. Let it flow on paper It's it's very helpful. So I can totally see that but at the same time just by sharing your story You can help others and others can see hey, I'm not alone And that's why I have this podcast is to share other people's stories. So listeners can know hey, I'm not alone and whatever it is, I mean have

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Exactly.

Sabine Kvenberg 
many different individuals, many different stories, many different experiences. But somehow we can pick a little bit from everybody who shares something because it's a universal experience that we have. And that's called life. We all have our demons. We all have our struggles that we need to go through. But in your case, you also show

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Absolutely.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Yes!

Sabine Kvenberg 
that you can get out even out of one of the worst situations, overcoming a stage four cancer, getting clean from drug abuse and alcohol and getting out of prison. mean, there's like three big things. Usually somebody has maybe one, it's hard to get through. this is so fantastic. So if you could give like,

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Right.

Sabine Kvenberg 
one piece of advice or one or two things that helped you through that process. So if a listener maybe struggles with one of these things or maybe all three, what piece of advice would you give them?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Right.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
my gosh, there's so many things. I'll see if I try to keep it as terse and succinct as possible. Yeah. I mean, if you, yeah, I mean, I think overall it is never too late. No matter how far or how deep down we feel we've gone. I think one of the things that starts to happen to people and Nietzsche had said this, but I won't get it exactly right.

Sabine Kvenberg 
Of course, get your book, right? if you could...

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Something along the lines of, when you look into the abyss long enough, you actually become the abyss. And that has resonated with me so deeply because it feels hopeless. And it's okay to feel hopeless, but please don't stay there too long. There is always hope. There's always a silver lining, even in the most desperate and horrific of situations. It is never too late.

to change course, to become a better person. I'm living proof of that.

Sabine Kvenberg 
That is a beautiful ending to this interview. You couldn't have said anything better. If someone wants to learn more about you or want to get your book, how can they do that?

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
My website is probably the best place. It'll give you all of my social media handles, my email, and I would encourage you if you'd like to chat more to reach out. Also, details about the book can be found at drjosh.solutions. That's D-R-J-O-S-H dot solutions spelled just like the word. And that's in place of a dot com or dot org in case you're wondering, like, what's the last part of that?

Sabine Kvenberg 
It's good to know. wonderful. And I make sure, of course, it will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today and hopefully you can touch many more lives moving forward.

Joshua J. Caraballo, PsyD 
Thank you so much for your time and for what you do with this podcast. Much appreci-