Why We Need Anabaptism And The Black Church with Rev. Dr. Drew G.I. Hart
Release Date: 08/06/2026
Beyond Sunday Worship Podcast
What is spiritual formation? What does it mean to follow Jesus? How do we change and transform? Does it happen in a moment or develop over a lifetime? So much of modern evangelicalism is oriented towards encounter - powerful experiences. I - for one - am grateful for powerful experiences I’ve had in the presence of God. But when we frame spiritual growth as a moment - as an encounter - what are we missing out on? In what ways are we being malformed? This is the subject of my conversation with Jonathan R. Bailey, author of the new book Dwelling in Christ: Discover the Threefold Path of...
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Topics Covered: Jason's adoption story and upbringing Learning about God from different streams of historic Christianity Why worship is more than just expression Whether Jason sees himself as a worship leader The pressure to be a Christian influencer When to be spontaneous in worship Song stories
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If you’re a follower of Jesus, you know you’re supposed to share your faith.We’re supposed to tell others about Jesus. But it’s often a topic that gives any Christian anxiety. What if I don’t know how to articulate what I believe? What if someone asks me a difficult question I don’t know how to answer? What if I’m a terrible Christian, fail in my defense, get laughed at, and the name of Christ is disrespected because I don’t know what I’m talking about? Take a deep breath… Lisa Fields is the CEO and founder of Jude 3 Project, a leading apologetics organization dedicated to...
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Maya Angelou once said, “"History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, however, if faced with courage, need not be lived again." The discipline of reading and studying history is not to make us feel good. It’s to instruct us so we don’t repeat the same mistakes. One of the greatest living historians of American Christianity is Kristin Kobes Du Mez. Her book Jesus And John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation explores how American evangelicalism embraced militant masculinity and Christian nationalism. It was released in 2020 and was a worldwide...
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A question I have wrestled with is…what makes the CHURCH different in the midst of our modern culture? What makes our local churches different than what other organizations have to offer? What happens when our local churches become oriented merely towards pragmatism? That’s what I talk about with Pastor and Author Brian Zahnd. Brian is the pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, MO and is no stranger to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. He has a new book called Unseen Existences: Of Heaven, Earth, and the Divine Mystery in All Things. This is a conversation about the church. About the Bible....
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If you’ve listened to this podcast at all in the past, you probably have some connection to either Christian music or worship music. Maybe you love it and worship music and Christian radio helps you get through the day. Maybe you’re a worship leader, always on the lookout for great worship songs for your church to sing. But maybe you have a love/hate relationship with the Christian music industry. You’ve been burned by it. You’ve seen how the sausage is made. This is a tension I hold. I love worship music. It’s been deeply formative in my life. But there is a current that exists...
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I think so many of us are longing for a faith that meets us right where we are. A faith that we can practice in school car line. At work. On a hospital bed. During a pandemic. A faith that is not merely escapism or triumphalism but a real faith in Christ that works not for the benefits it gives us, but for the ways it opens us up to the mystery of God. A faith that leaves room for questions, doubts, and one in which we don’t have to perform to perfection. That’s why I love the writing of Tish Harrison Warren. Listen to these book titles: Liturgy of the Ordinary. Prayer In The Night. And...
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Not all spiritual formation is created equal. Just because you read your Bible, pray, and go to church every Sunday does not mean you are being renewed - as Colossians 3:10 says - in the image and knowledge of your creator. A very good litmus test for us as followers of Jesus is…do we look like Jesus? Do we love what Jesus loved? Do we love whom Jesus loved? Do we speak as Jesus spoke? Do we embody what Jesus lived and died for? That has been the historical definition of a Christian for generations: little Christs. With the rise of Christian nationalism in our present day, many outside...
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When I was a young teenager, I heard a traveling evangelist say the best form of therapy was speaking in tongues. The preacher at the time was criticizing modern therapy as unchristian and, ultimately unnecessary. We don’t need to sit in rooms and endless unpack our problems and our past trauma. What people need more than anything - he said - is the presence of God. I understand the sentiment. I love the presence of God. I believe there is tremendous value in spiritual disciplines, practices, and experiences with God. But what happens to our formation as people when we are trained to be...
info_outlineBeyond Sunday Worship Podcast
I remember my days as a young worship leader. There was always this unspoken tension between being performative and pastoral. Is it my job as a worship leader to provide a powerful, exciting experience or to guide them in a healthy practice for their spiritual formation? When we say worship was really good this week, what do we mean? If you lead worship, you know the tension. When you put a singer or musician on a stage, under the lights, it is by definition a performance. Performance is not a bad thing,but we, at the same time feel uncomfortable talking about performance when it comes to...
info_outlineNot all spiritual formation is created equal. Just because you read your Bible, pray, and go to church every Sunday does not mean you are being renewed - as Colossians 3:10 says - in the image and knowledge of your creator.
A very good litmus test for us as followers of Jesus is…do we look like Jesus? Do we love what Jesus loved? Do we love whom Jesus loved? Do we speak as Jesus spoke? Do we embody what Jesus lived and died for?
That has been the historical definition of a Christian for generations: little Christs.
With the rise of Christian nationalism in our present day, many outside the church look at Christianity in America and wonder, what does it actually mean to be a Christian?
One of my favorite books in the last year was Making it Plain: Why We Need Anabaptism And The Black Church with Dr. Drew G.I. Hart. So I wanted to bring him on the show to talk about the history of anabaptism. The history of the black church. And what we can learn about following Jesus today.
Drew is an author, speaker, and professor of theology at Messiah University in Pennsylvania. With a decade of pastoral experience, Drew is a leading voice in Christian ethics, black theology, and anabaptism.
Topics Covered:
- Drew's upbringing in "Black evangelicalism"
- The difference between "Black Evangelicalism" and "Black Liberation Theology"
- The history of Anabaptism, its victories and vices
- The multicultural reality of Anabaptism globally
- The Christendom mindset and its influence today
- The history of colonial conquest in America and the birth of the Black Church
- How The Black Church balances out Anabaptism
- What went wrong with Christopher Columbus and his spiritual formation
- Why liberation theology is often resisted
- The Black Lives Matter movement and why it is so often resisted
Resources Mentioned:
- Show Sponsor: Planning Center
- Making it Plain: Why We Need Anabaptism And The Black Church by Drew Hart
Show Sponsor: Planning Center

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.
Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.
Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.
Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.
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