Beyond Sunday Worship Podcast

A podcast for worship leaders, pastors, and those invested in a healthier, whole church.

The Truth About the American Church's Complicity in Racism (And Where We Go From Here) 09/18/2025

The Truth About the American Church's Complicity in Racism (And Where We Go From Here) Today’s conversation is with historian, author, and activist Dr. Jemar Tisby. Early in 2025 I decided to read more history. Call it curiosity or wanting more context to our current political moment, I started to devour books about the Civil War and eventually more books about the Civil Rights era. One of those books was The Color of Compromise: The Truth About the American Church’s Complicity in Racism. And to be honest, I was blown away by this book. Mainly because I had never learned this stuff growing up. I’d learned history…but I hadn’t learned this history. Why does this matter? I believe to my core that if we are unwilling to face and reckon with the darker parts of our history, we will continue to make the same mistakes. A quote that has been attributed to Mark Twain: History may not repeat itself but it does rhyme. We are living in an incredibly dangerous and polarizing political moment in America. And like Jemary Tisby says in our podcast…what happens in culture is downstream of what happens in the church. So we’re going to face some hard truths today. Reckon with some hard truths. And come out better on the other side. Jamar is a brilliant scholar and teacher. He’s bold yet gracious. And I’m excited to share this conversation with you today. As always, thank you for listening. This is David Santistevan and you can reach out to me at any time at Topics Covered: Jamar's salvation story in the white evangelical church What the Mississippi Delta teaches us about American racism The church's complicity in racism throughout history Doug Wilson and the spread of racist ideology The unique atrocity of American race-based, chattel slavery Why leftist, Marxist, DEI deflections are lazy and don't make sense Racial bias in the Christian Music industry US churches who are speaking out about racial injustice and justice work Resources Mentioned by Jamar Tisby by Jamar Tisby Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping inform /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/38269300

Church Styles, Worship Styles, & Multi-Generational Setlists with Lizzie Morgan 09/08/2025

Church Styles, Worship Styles, & Multi-Generational Setlists with Lizzie Morgan Today’s conversation is returning to our roots at BSW - talking with a worship leader about worship. We’ve been talking to academics and historians - which we will continue to do - but sometimes it feels good to throw it back and have a good ole worship leader conversation. Lizzie Morgan is a gifted young worship leader who grew up in the church and has been singing her whole life. She auditioned for Lauren Daigle, sang with Lauren, and has since been a part of tours with Maverick City, Red Worship, and various other groups. I loved this conversation because of where it went. If you know me - I get a little bored with just talking about worship songwriting and worship records. Sorry, I just do…but this conversation went somewhere I didn’t anticipate - talki ng about how different generations have viewed church and worship and what we can learn from that. What did previous generations do well? What regrets do they have? What previous generations have passed down…does the next generation even want it? We also talk about building setlist, flow, reimagining how we do worship, as well as Lizzie’s new record Not My Will. Topics Covered: Lizzie's upbringing in the United Pentecostal Church An audition that changed Lizzie's life What Lizzie learned about worship from her family growing up The difference between generations and the tensions of walking with charismatic gifts Why singing only select songs from a few movements is hurting us How to build creative setlist Why Lizzie decided to do a live worship record Why saying yes to God's will is so difficult Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: by Lizzie Morgan Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/38134040

Why The Early Church Didn't Have Worship Services: A Conversation with Dr. Tom Wadsworth 08/27/2025

Why The Early Church Didn't Have Worship Services: A Conversation with Dr. Tom Wadsworth As a young worship leader, I used to ask myself the question: “Why is worship such a big deal?” Not in the sense of “God isn’t worthy of it…” but I realized there were no worship leaders in the Bible. Lots of singing. And our church gatherings are built around worship. And there’s a worship industry. And a constant stream of songs and songwriters. It’s a big deal in our modern church culture. I consoled myself with the thought that God is worthy of it. We sing so much because he’s worthy. We write so many songs because he’s worthy. We have so many services because he’s worthy. And while that might not be wrong… has our emphasis on worship led us to an imbalance in our gatherings? Has our emphasis on worship being all about God, led us to neglect the very real horizontal aspects of ministry and discipleship? I wanted to talk about it. My guest today is Dr. Tom Wadsorth, New Testament scholar whose doctoral dissertation was why the first century church did not use worship language when it described its gathering. I know that is controversial. This is a worship podcast. You may be a worship leader. You may be a songwriter who resources the church with new songs. We’re not talking about removing worship and singing from the church. That would be an obvious Biblical misinterpretation. What we are looking at is how did the first century church view its gathering and what can we learn from it today? Because I don’t know about you - it’s possible to worship, listen to sermons, and give in the offering for a lifetime and not mature in my faith. Our churches are full… and growing numerically…but are people maturing in their faith? What would it look like for us to reimagine our gatherings? This is controversial. You may disagree some. But I think it’s a healthy theme for us to wrestle with. Topics Covered: What constituted the gathering of first century Christians Why worship language would be foreign to the first century church When the shift happened in church history from edification to worship Power and control dynamics throughout church history Why preaching is not a New Testament concept How to balance mega and small church Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/37981555

The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy with Dr. Matthew D. Taylor 08/13/2025

The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy with Dr. Matthew D. Taylor Topics Covered: C. Peter Wagner and the alliance between church growth and charismatic theology The New Apostolic Reformation and why it's important we understand it A definition of Dominion Theology The Seven Mountain Mandate and how popular this ideology is Why not all charismatic/pentecostal movements and theology are dangerous Paula White and the prosperity Gospel The proper context of Mathew 11:12 The problem with partnering American politics with Christian extremism How we got to where we are today with "apostles" and "prophets" Why charismatic Christianity is so fixated on revival Che Ahn and his network's merging with the American Militia movement The story of Donald Trump and the Christians instrumental in his rise to power The Sean Feucht saga and what we can learn from it Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: by Matthew D. Taylor Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/37806180

The Truth About The Gospel Industry That Is Actually True with Rick Robinson 08/07/2025

The Truth About The Gospel Industry That Is Actually True with Rick Robinson On July 25, 2025 Isaac Caree released a podcast interview with Norman Gyamfi. Norman is a music industry executive and part owner of Maverick City Music. Suffice it to say, this conversation created a firestorm of controversy and conversation around Gospel Music, CCM, and the racial tension embedded within the music industry. We know these things are going on, but for maybe the first time - a business executive let it ALL out. Being that Beyond Sunday is a podcast about worship and the church, I wanted to talk about it so I decided to invite Rick Robinson, a Gospel Music vet onto the show to break down what Norman said and why it is so problematic. One of the things Rick says in the interview is: “Gospel music is a sound. Gospel music is a culture.” And while it’s ok to reinvent and innovate, the beauty of Gospel music does not need toned down or whitewashed in order to succeed. If we do that, we lose the heart and soul of what makes Gospel music what it is. Topics Covered: The history of Gospel Music in Chicago The important difference between ministry and industry The difference between the sacred music of Gospel and the business of Gospel Music The difference between the members of Maverick City and the brand of Maverick City How Norman let us see behind the curtain of industry Why Norman admitting he was a Trump supporter didn't bolster his argument The problem with anti-black rhetoric, especially coming from a black man Why worship should be its own award category Why artists need to first and foremost be authentic Confronting the racial tensions in the music industry Why black artists are constantly pitched songs by white songwriters but white artists rarely do songs from black artists Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/37719290

Artist Insecurity, Fear, & The Servant Hearted Worship Leader with Jon Reddick 07/30/2025

The Rival Religion of America and A Prophetic Call to Pastors with Brian Zahnd 07/16/2025

The Rival Religion of America and A Prophetic Call to Pastors with Brian Zahnd Topics Covered: The story of how Word of Life Church lost 1500 people Why America is a rival religion to Christianity Why America is more akin to Babylon than ancient Israel How the charismatic movement went awry Why charismatic worship is so aligned with DT and Christian nationalism Why music, literature, and films are important to Brian How Brian uses music to write sermons Brian's reading habits Why Brian is reading the KJV right now Why reading fiction is so important to preaching and theology Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: by Brian Zahnd by Brian Zahnd (the book Brian refused to be interviewed on the Paula White show with) by Brian Zahnd (a great overview of Brian's church story) by Jon Fosse Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and kee /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/37432480

The Current State of Christian Music with Dustin Lolli from Sanctus Real 07/10/2025

Is Racial Reconciliation and a Healthy Multicultural Church Possible? An interview with Latasha Morrison 06/26/2025

Is Racial Reconciliation and a Healthy Multicultural Church Possible? An interview with Latasha Morrison One my favorite books this year was Be The Bridge: Pursuing God’s Heart for Racial Reconciliation by Latasha Morrison. A wonderful book that is challenging but also compassionate and full of grace. We’ve waded into conversations like this recently with Nikki Lerner, Darwin Hobbs, and David Gate. Why are we doing this? Because I truly believe it matters. It matters for our souls, our relationships, our churches, and our nation. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend like it’s not an issue or we can move closer to one another be the bridge in this work of reconciliation. Latasha founded Be the Bridge in 2016 to encourage racial reconciliation among all ethnicities, to promote racial unity in America, and to equip others to do the same. In this conversation we go pretty deep. We talk about Latasha’s ministry work, being hired in both black and white churches, brown faces in white spaces (another one of Latasha’s books), the challenge with being a multicultural church today, the church’s complicity in racism throughout history, why facing the darkest parts of our history matters, music and racial bias, and so much more. Topics Covered: Latasha's church staff experience in black and white churches The courage it takes to pursue multicultural ministry Why multicultural churches are the healthy, growing churches of the future Power dynamics in race relations The differences between white leaders of multicultural churches and black leaders of multicultural churches The church's complicity in racism and why ignoring it is not "unity" Facing the darkest parts of our history with courage Music and racial bias Resources: Show Sponsor: by Latasha Morrison by Latasha Morrison (Latasha's organization) - Two White Guys Talking about The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/37168470

Reimagining the Worship Industry with Chris McClarney & Jesse Phillips 06/18/2025

Reimagining the Worship Industry with Chris McClarney & Jesse Phillips So we talk a lot about the worship industry on this podcast. Sometimes that conversation can result in a let’s just wine and complain about how awful it is. But my guests today are not content with that sort of negativity! It will not be tolerated! But here’s the reality: The music industry is built on financial inequality and the worship industry is no different. Those at the top often make a killing, while many musicians and artists struggle to survive. I sat down with @cmcclarney & @thejessephillips from @realfunrecords to talk about it. We’re pulling back the worship industry curtain just a bit to imagine a better way. Well, they are imagining a better way. Many professional musicians you know and love from hit records have no stake in the songs they play on. They essentially get a day rate of $100-$200. Artists have so much money they need to pay back that it’s not sustainable for creativity or a career. Chris & Jesse are forging a new path in a space steeped in “but we’ve always done it this way”. Topics Covered: The money problem with the music industry Artist empowerment and what it means Equitable and fair partnerships with musicians Why you should think about writing your own songs The impact of streaming Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to- /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/37060515

The Church, Culture, & How Jesus Changes Everything with Stanley Hauerwas 06/12/2025

The Church, Culture, & How Jesus Changes Everything with Stanley Hauerwas Today’s conversation is a bit of a departure from our usual worship leader/worship industry conversation. I’m talking with Stanley Hauerwas. Here’s his bio: Stanley Hauerwas, a theologian and Christian ethicist, is professor emeritus of theological ethics and of law at Duke University. He is the author or editor of more than fifty books, including Resident Aliens: Life in the Christian Colony (1989), which he co-authored with William H. Willimon. His lower-middle-class upbringing informed his later approach to theological and ethical questions (at one point, he was apprenticed to his father, a bricklayer). In 2001, Time magazine named Hauerwas “America’s Best Theologian”; he replied that “best” is not a theological category. Stanley will turn 85 this year. I’m new to Stanley’s work but absolutely devoured his new book Jesus Changes Everything as well as his landmark work, Resident Aliens. I find his thinking incredibly helpful in navigating our current times. He don’ts pull any punches or hide behind any veneer of religiosity. Topics Covered: Stanley's love of travel and baseball How Stanley came to faith in Christ The influence of Karl Barth How Stanley "got saved" The similarities between evangelicalism and protestant liberalism How Christian "experience" gets us off track How Jesus changes everything How evangelicalism can recapture a more robust faith Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: by Stanley Hauerwas by Stanley Hauerwas by Fr. Alban Butler by Karl Barth by Herbert McCabe by David Burrell by Janet Soskice Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36973465

Christianity in Chaos? How We Can Find Our Way in an Age of Confusion & Corruption with Glenn Packiam 06/04/2025

Two White Guys Talking About The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation (An Interview with David Gate) 05/28/2025

Two White Guys Talking About The Black Church, Black Music, & Black Liberation (An Interview with David Gate) Today’s topic and subject matter is a tough one. I’m talking with my friend David Gate. David is a writer and poet. He has a new book releasing in 2025 called A Rebellion of Care. But David also has a long history as a worship leader, songwriter, and artist. David wrote an article recently in response to the new Ryan Coogler move Sinners, starring Michael B Jordan. The title of that article was I know. It’s a bold, often cutting article. And while I don’t agree with everything he says, I believe he gets to the heart of a tension that many feel. As with most of American culture throughout history, we have not given due credit to the black church. To black music. Black innovation. We have borrowed (or as David would say - stolen) from black culture and profited wildly off of its innovation and yet have not cared about black liberation in the white charismatic church. Which is the heart of what this conversation is about. Topics Covered: A breakdown of the movie "Sinners" The theft of black music and culture The beauty and story of the Black Church Performance in Black vs White contexts Becoming aware the causes of black liberation The influence of the blues on white rock & roll Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: by David Gate (preorder) Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36759380

The Separation of Church and Concert with Andy Cherry 05/22/2025

The Separation of Church and Concert with Andy Cherry Today’s conversation is with my friend Andy Cherry. Andy is a Worship Leader, former Worship Pastor, Songwriter with Capitol CMG, and touring bandmate with Brandon Lake. Andy is mega talented and a thoughtful voice on the tensions of worship and industry. As a professional songwriter, he’s someone whose livelihood is connected to the worship industry. We have a great chat about excellence culture in the church. Has it gone too far? Why it’s uncomfortable to combine the words “worship” and “industry”. Why we need to expand the kinds of leaders we hire into Worship Pastor roles. At the heart of it all is a love for Jesus, a passion for His presence, and a desire to serve the people of God through honest art and biblical faithfulness. Topics Covered: Early influential records The problem with our performance culture in church Separating concert from church Why we need to write about more topics Andy's songwriting & creative process Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36669910

Christian Nationalism and Worship: Faith, Politics, & Identity with Dr. Lester Ruth 05/14/2025

Christian Nationalism and Worship: Faith, Politics, & Identity with Dr. Lester Ruth Today’s conversation is with Dr. Lester Ruth, a research professor of Christian Worship at Duke Divinity School. If you go back in the archives you’ll see I interviewed Lester and Swee Hong Lim around the time they released their book A History of Contemporary Praise & Worship. Lester is a worship historian. The subject of this interview is about Christian Nationalism and Worship, a new course that Lester has been teaching. I wanted to interview Lester about this because I believe it has so much relevance to our current political climate, the church, and our worship practices. Now…I know anything political tends to bring out some tensions. And this may cause some frustration for you. But the goal here is not to be partisan or take sides. We’re merely looking at the history of Christian nationalism today and even around the world. We talk about the three strands of Christian nationalism in the US today. We talk about the intersection of worship and christian nationalism and how that influences the kinds of songs we sing. We also talk about how we can have healthier dialogue together, no matter our political differences. We even end the podcast with some Civil War history and Lester’s reading habits/suggestions. Topics Covered: The 3 Strands of Christian Nationalism in the United States today The global nature of religions nationalism How worship can be co-opted by Christian nationalism The surprising religious beliefs of our nation's founders Civil War history and how it relates to Christian Nationalism Worship Industry tensions Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: by Rebekah Eklund by Matthew D. Taylor by Erik Larson by Jon Meacham by Garry Wills (Civil War Sagas) by Jay Winik by Harry Stout Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36571875

How Industry And Christian Product Has Influenced Worship in the Local Church with Andrew Osenga 05/07/2025

How Industry And Christian Product Has Influenced Worship in the Local Church with Andrew Osenga Today’s conversation is with Andrew Osenga. Andrew is an artist, songwriter, producer, musician, and author. He used to do A&R with Integrity Music. Used to have a band called The Normals. Was a part of Caedmon’s Call. Has a host of solo records and albums. He’s a very thoughtful voice in this space of worship and spiritual formation. He leads a project called Anchor Hymns. This was a deep, far ranging conversation. Topics Covered: Why we didn't need to be sheltered from all thing secular How radio and Christian product has influenced our worship songwriting How fundamentalism warped our view of hymns Local church songwriting Why we need to write worship songs about more diverse topics Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36476295

Leading Teams and Leading Worship in a Mega Church with Jordan Howerton 04/25/2025

Leading Teams and Leading Worship in a Mega Church with Jordan Howerton Today’s conversation is an interesting juxtaposition to last week’s podcast with . Jason leads worship in a church of less than 100 people. Today’s guest - Jordan Howerton - is the Worship Pastor for one of the largest churches in the country - Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ. If you’ve listened to the my podcast for a while, you’ll know I don’t believe bigger is better. There is beauty in small. There is dignity in serving and pastoring a small church with incremental or slow growth year after year. But for today, I want us to dive into the mega church dynamic. What does it take to lead a staff of 70 people in worship and production? How can you care for and pastor hundreds of volunteers? How do you develop a unified worship culture across 18 campuses? We dive into all of that here. My conversation with Jordan Howerton Topics Covered: Growing up in a small church + small church dynamics The challenge of being a worship leader today Why we need to make local church ministry great again Why God is moving in mega churches Dysfunction in both small and large churches Discipleship for your worship team What resources CCV uses to support their worship teams Why CCV doesn't provide chord charts to their teams Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the . One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. I can’t recommend the enough. offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, is the place for you. Visit and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36308650

Small Church Worship, Click Tracks, & How Anyone Can Make a Worship Album with Jason Houtsma 04/16/2025

Small Church Worship, Click Tracks, & How Anyone Can Make a Worship Album with Jason Houtsma Topics Covered: Playing actual live music in worship The small church community Comparing large church/high production to small church/low production Why you might NOT want to use clicks and tracks Taking risks and being creative in worship again Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: by Jason Houtsma by Chaim Potok Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the . One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. I can’t recommend the enough. offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, is the place for you. Visit and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36204010

Discipleship, Ego, & Pursuing the Presence of God in Your Local Church with John Wilds 04/09/2025

Discipleship, Ego, & Pursuing the Presence of God in Your Local Church with John Wilds Topics Covered: Coffee snobbery John's favorite US (and international) coffee shops How to extend your vocal range Caring for the person, not the just the gifting The importance of staying rooted in a local church The dangers of ego and self centeredness in ministry Sonship Time restraints in worship Structure and flow in worship Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: by Bob Sorge by Ryan Holiday Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the . One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. I can’t recommend the enough. offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master’s programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God’s purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you’re searching for something truly unique, is the place for you. Visit and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/36075355

Anointing Over Gifting, Women in Worship, & Evaluating the Foundation of Our Ministries with Natalie Runion 04/02/2025

Anointing Over Gifting, Women in Worship, & Evaluating the Foundation of Our Ministries with Natalie Runion Today’s conversation is with Natalie Runion - Natalie is a worship leader, author, speaker, and founder of the online community . She’s written two books - Raised to Stay and The House that Jesus Built, both powerful, insightful reads into the realities of local church ministry. In this conversation we talk about worship ministry tensions, aging out of ministry roles, challenges for women in ministry, the idol of green room culture, responding to church hurt, and why our obsession with church growth can get us off track. Natalie is bold, challenging, and an important voice to the church today. Topics Covered: How Natalie discovered this concept of "Raised to Stay" Worship as a church growth tool How to approach a full time ministry role Why our emphasis on leadership is hurting our leadership The idol of green rooms The entitlement of worship leaders Why the conversation around "anointing" needs to change The tension and struggle of being a female worship pastor Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: (use promo code BEYOND2025) Show Sponsor: (website) by Natalie Runion by Natalie Runion Show Sponsor #1: Robert E. Webber Institute for Worship Studies This episode is brought to you by the . One of the questions I hear often is what are the best ways to further your training as a worship leader? Many worship pastors jump right into full time ministry out of college or ministry school. While practical ministry experience is necessary, it is often incomplete. You need a theological, historical, and biblical framework to sustain a healthy worship ministry today. Otherwise, it becomes a game of chasing fads and maintaining the status quo. I can’t recommend the enough. offers academically and spiritually rich doctoral and master's programs in worship studies, designed to transform you as a leader and deepen your connection to God's purpose for worship. The focus is all about discipling worship leaders to disciple worshipers, which we need more of in the church today. If you're searching for something truly unique, is the place for you. Visit and use the code BEYOND2025 for a discount. Now is the time to start your journey toward a more meaningful and impactful worship ministry. Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/35974305

Deciphering, Unlearning, and Reframing Mega Church Worship Models with Becky Ykema 03/26/2025

Darwin Hobbs on Finding Your Voice, Gospel Music in the Church, & Why We Can't Stop Talking About Racism. 03/19/2025

David Leonard on Creating in Community, Corporate Worship, & the Challenges of Being an Artist 03/10/2025

Jeff Cochran on Spiritual Abuse, Mega Church Systems, & Fostering Healthier Worship Ministries 02/26/2025

Jeff Cochran on Spiritual Abuse, Mega Church Systems, & Fostering Healthier Worship Ministries Today we welcome Jeff Cochran to the Beyond Sunday Podcast. Jeff is the founder of the Spiritual Abuse Institute and the host of the Church Disrupted podcast. Jeff is a business owner, church consultant, and has spent many years in local church ministry. His insights into spiritual abuse, church systems, and creating healtheir churches is so insightful. These are TOUGH TOPICS but so necessary to talk about so that we not only create GROWING church but also SAFE churches, free of abusive practices. Topics Covered: The definition of spiritual abuse and how to spot it Why pastors have a hard time admitting to their faults Spiritual abuse in small and mega churches What is especially challenging about mega church culture Mega church growth systems and what to be aware of How spiritual abuse finds its way into worship ministry Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. So go to to use for free. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/35437500

Nathan Apffel & Chris Ayoub on The Religion Business 02/19/2025

Rich Villodas on Charismatic vs Contemplative Tensions, Church Growth, & The Narrow Path of Jesus 02/12/2025

Nikki Lerner on Life After Full Time Ministry, Worship Culture Conundrums, & Fostering Multicultural Churches 02/05/2025

Nikki Lerner on Life After Full Time Ministry, Worship Culture Conundrums, & Fostering Multicultural Churches "We've made the list of everything that could go wrong. It's time to make the list of everything that could go right." - Nikki Lerner Topics Covered: What it's like to leave full time ministry after 20+ years The challenge of doing ministry when you're paid to do it full time The importance of creative outlets outside of the church What to do when you're bored with worship music Nikki's philosophy of worship How to become a multicultural church The difference between multi colored and multicultural Mono-ethnocentricism and the worship industry Resources Mentioned: Show Sponsor: Show Sponsor: My goal in this podcast is to help you grow as a worship leader. Of course that includes your formation, but it isn’t limited to that—it’s also with practical tools to help you in your ministry. It’s hard to talk about being a worship leader without mentioning . As you know, I’m a huge fan. A lot of you are already using Planning Center Services to schedule your volunteers, plan your worship services, and give your team the tools they need to learn their music. But with , you can stay even more engaged with your volunteers and anyone looking for how to get plugged in. First, some good news: is completely free with any Planning Center subscription. No, you didn’t hear me wrong—it’s free. Second, some better news: you can use to add new volunteers to your teams quickly and automatically. In , you can make forms for anyone interested in volunteering, put them in a step-by-step training workflow, and then automatically add them to Services to schedule them for the right team. And that’s just one way you can use . From sending automated emails and seeing church-wide engagement to organizing your member database and keeping information up-to-date, there’s tons you can do. /episode/index/show/beyondsunday/id/35162310

Malcolm DuPlessis on Racial Tension, Injustice, & The Commercialization of Worship 01/27/2025

Mike O'Brien on Worship Artist/Leader Tensions, Local Church Ministry, & The Gift of Obscurity 01/15/2025

Tommy Preson Phillips on Why People Are Leaving The Church To Look For Christ 01/02/2025