202. How Do You Solve a Problem Like Martinez? — Benjamin A. Fleshman
Release Date: 11/19/2025
202. How Do You Solve a Problem Like Martinez? — Benjamin A. Fleshman
Cross & Gavel Podcast
In 2010, the Supreme Court issued a consequential opinion that stifled the freedom of association across countless campuses when it came to religious groups. In CLS v. Martinez, in a divided 5-4 , the Court opened the way for universities to limit group association by refusing to grant them power to elect those leaders best suited to carry on that group’s mission and purpose. In a forthcoming article () in the Texas Review of Law and Politics, my guest today, Benjamin Fleshman, covers the infamous Martinez decision and the problem it created for student organizations across the country....
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201. Cosmic Politics — Jim DeMint
Cross & Gavel Podcast
One of the cliches of culture is that we are polarized. Perhaps because it has become so commonplace to speak of our divisions, our divisions have become normalized. In my conversation today, I speak with someone who is very much at the heart of the American political order and has a unique vantage point for elucidating the cosmic significance of our clashes. is an American businessman, author, and retired politician who served as a United States Senator from South Carolina and as president of The Heritage Foundation. A leading figure in the Tea Party movement, Jim is a member of the...
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200. The Prodigal Host Returns — Mike Schutt
Cross & Gavel Podcast
Today marks the 200th episode of the Cross & Gavel. As part of that celebration, I have brought back the original host to have an unscripted and (mostly) unedited conversation about all things ministry, movies, books, and more. Mike Schutt is now the Executive Director of , the director of the CLS Law School Fellows Program, and the author of the seminal work for Christian law students, . Mike is also an affiliate professor at Trinity Law School and a decent human being (I don’t care what Myron says). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced...
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199. Unshaken Allegiance — Patrick Parkinson
Cross & Gavel Podcast
My guest today comes from outside the United States and has been studying the religious freedom landscape in Australia for quite some time. In his new book——he chronicles many of these challenges, offering a constructively approach to matters of difference and the various ways to express our Christian identity in the heat of public contest. (AM, MA, LLM, LLD) is an Emeritus Professor of Law and former Dean of Law at the University of Queensland. He has been involved in advocacy for religious freedom in Australia for many years, in particular as board member and sometime Chair of Freedom...
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198. How Religious Actors Help Shape the AI Dialogue — Whittney Barth
Cross & Gavel Podcast
My guest this week is Whittney Barth, an associate teaching professor at Emory Law School and the Executive Director and Charlotte McDaniel Scholar at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion. Our conversation centers around her new piece arguing that religious actors act as friction creators in the discussion and development of AI tools, ethics, and regulation. Full paper: Full bio: Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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SPECIAL EPISODE: The Wages of Cinema — Crystal L. Downing
Cross & Gavel Podcast
In this special film festival edition, I talk with Crystal L. Downing about the medium of film and how to approach the viewing experience. At the heart of our discussion is her new book, . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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197. Kierkegaardian Ethics & the Rule of Law — Joshua Neoh
Cross & Gavel Podcast
One of the major challenges in religious freedom law is figuring out to what extent a claim of accommodation is justified given the low barrier of entry for claims of sincerity. While American law tries to prevent a man from becoming what Justice Scalia in Smith called “,” something of the sort is happening when a person claims that his faith prevents him from following the normal course of obedience. My conversation today helps illuminate some of this in a profound way, specifically looking at Soren Kierkegaard’s ethical system and considering its corollary in the rule of law....
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196. Pursuing Justice in a Violent Land (Part II) — Kurt Ver Beek & Emily Cole
Cross & Gavel Podcast
In , Ross Halperin and I laid a foundation for the work of ASJ in Honduras under the leadership of Kurt Ver Beek and others. In this episode, I am joined by Kurt himself to discuss his exchange of letters between Nicholas Wolterstorff in a wonderful book, , which looks at the meaning of justice and the work ASJ. Kurt is joined by Emily Cole, who has focused on Latin America most of her career and remains a passionate advocate for the well-being and development of that region. I speak to them about a number of things, focusing on the structural details of working in the area, including the...
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195. Pursuing Justice in a Violent Land (Part I) — Ross Halperin
Cross & Gavel Podcast
Today, we start a two-part journey into the heart of Honduran society. Our focus will be on one man, Kurt Ver Beek, and the organization he co-founded, . Kurt is a professor of Sociology (Emeritus) at Calvin University and lead investigator for an agreement between Transparency International, the Honduran Government, and ASJ. For this first episode, we are joined by the reporter Ross Halperin, whose recent biography () of Kurt’s ministry (New York Times profile ) paints a fascinating picture of a man dedicated to the cause of justice. While Ross and I do not discuss the entire scope of...
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194. Building an AI-Savvy Workforce — Kevin Frazier
Cross & Gavel Podcast
My conversation today is on the necessity of adaptive leadership in the coming wave that is artificial intelligence. My guest is Kevin Frazier, the newly minted AI Innovation and Law Fellow at The University of Texas School of Law. His article () in Law & Liberty is called Building an AI-Savvy Workforce. His new podcast, Scaling Law (), is excellent. Find his other work at Lawfare (). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
info_outlineIn 2010, the Supreme Court issued a consequential opinion that stifled the freedom of association across countless campuses when it came to religious groups. In CLS v. Martinez, in a divided 5-4 opinion, the Court opened the way for universities to limit group association by refusing to grant them power to elect those leaders best suited to carry on that group’s mission and purpose.
In a forthcoming article (here) in the Texas Review of Law and Politics, my guest today, Benjamin Fleshman, covers the infamous Martinez decision and the problem it created for student organizations across the country. Given the closeness of this topic to my own work, we discuss in some detail the infamous “all comers” policy (see this and this) still upheld in some law schools, e.g., UC-Berkeley (see this), nature of student organizations, the importance of recent Supreme Court decisions (see recent FCA en banc decision in the Ninth Circuit and then the other mentioned FCA case in Washington, D.C.), the recent attempts to strengthen group access (see this), and more.
Benjamin joined The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty as Counsel in 2023. His work there focuses on appellate litigation in both state and federal courts. Prior to joining Becket, Ben worked as an associate at Shearman & Sterling in Washington, D.C., where he practiced antitrust law and complex commercial litigation. Before entering private practice, he served as a law clerk to Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Full bio.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.