Cross & Gavel Podcast
A production of Christian Legal Society — focusing on the interaction between law, religion, and public policy, with an emphasis on building-up Christian students and attorneys to intelligently engage in public life and better love their neighbors. Hosted by Anton Sorkin (Director of Law Student Ministries)
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202. How Do You Solve a Problem Like Martinez? — Benjamin A. Fleshman
11/19/2025
202. How Do You Solve a Problem Like Martinez? — Benjamin A. Fleshman
In 2010, the Supreme Court issued a consequential opinion that stifled the freedom of association across countless campuses when it came to religious groups. In CLS v. Martinez, in a divided 5-4 , the Court opened the way for universities to limit group association by refusing to grant them power to elect those leaders best suited to carry on that group’s mission and purpose. In a forthcoming article () in the Texas Review of Law and Politics, my guest today, Benjamin Fleshman, covers the infamous Martinez decision and the problem it created for student organizations across the country. Given the closeness of this topic to my own work, we discuss in some detail the infamous “all comers” policy (see and ) still upheld in some law schools, e.g., UC-Berkeley (see ), nature of student organizations, the importance of recent Supreme Court decisions (see recent in the Ninth Circuit and then the other mentioned in Washington, D.C.), the recent attempts to strengthen group access (see ), and more. Benjamin joined The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty as Counsel in 2023. His work there focuses on appellate litigation in both state and federal courts. Prior to joining Becket, Ben worked as an associate at Shearman & Sterling in Washington, D.C., where he practiced antitrust law and complex commercial litigation. Before entering private practice, he served as a law clerk to Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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201. Cosmic Politics — Jim DeMint
11/05/2025
201. Cosmic Politics — Jim DeMint
One of the cliches of culture is that we are polarized. Perhaps because it has become so commonplace to speak of our divisions, our divisions have become normalized. In my conversation today, I speak with someone who is very much at the heart of the American political order and has a unique vantage point for elucidating the cosmic significance of our clashes. is an American businessman, author, and retired politician who served as a United States Senator from South Carolina and as president of The Heritage Foundation. A leading figure in the Tea Party movement, Jim is a member of the Republican Party and is the founder of the Senate Conservatives Fund. His most recent accomplishment was serving as the founding chairman of the Conservative Partnership Institute. Jim and I talk about his new book entitled . I ask him about his faith inside the many offices he held, the church and whether he trusts the pastors to deliver the “right” message, his reading of Ephesians 6 and the cosmic war at play, and much more.
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200. The Prodigal Host Returns — Mike Schutt
10/29/2025
200. The Prodigal Host Returns — Mike Schutt
Today marks the 200th episode of the Cross & Gavel. As part of that celebration, I have brought back the original host to have an unscripted and (mostly) unedited conversation about all things ministry, movies, books, and more. Mike Schutt is now the Executive Director of , the director of the CLS Law School Fellows Program, and the author of the seminal work for Christian law students, . Mike is also an affiliate professor at Trinity Law School and a decent human being (I don’t care what Myron says). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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199. Unshaken Allegiance — Patrick Parkinson
10/22/2025
199. Unshaken Allegiance — Patrick Parkinson
My guest today comes from outside the United States and has been studying the religious freedom landscape in Australia for quite some time. In his new book——he chronicles many of these challenges, offering a constructively approach to matters of difference and the various ways to express our Christian identity in the heat of public contest. (AM, MA, LLM, LLD) is an Emeritus Professor of Law and former Dean of Law at the University of Queensland. He has been involved in advocacy for religious freedom in Australia for many years, in particular as board member and sometime Chair of Freedom for Faith. He is an expert on family law and child protection and has held various positions chairing governmental advisory bodies in Australia in these areas, leading to significant law reform. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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198. How Religious Actors Help Shape the AI Dialogue — Whittney Barth
10/08/2025
198. How Religious Actors Help Shape the AI Dialogue — Whittney Barth
My guest this week is Whittney Barth, an associate teaching professor at Emory Law School and the Executive Director and Charlotte McDaniel Scholar at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion. Our conversation centers around her new piece arguing that religious actors act as friction creators in the discussion and development of AI tools, ethics, and regulation. Full paper: Full bio: Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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SPECIAL EPISODE: The Wages of Cinema — Crystal L. Downing
09/25/2025
SPECIAL EPISODE: The Wages of Cinema — Crystal L. Downing
In this special film festival edition, I talk with Crystal L. Downing about the medium of film and how to approach the viewing experience. At the heart of our discussion is her new book, . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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197. Kierkegaardian Ethics & the Rule of Law — Joshua Neoh
09/17/2025
197. Kierkegaardian Ethics & the Rule of Law — Joshua Neoh
One of the major challenges in religious freedom law is figuring out to what extent a claim of accommodation is justified given the low barrier of entry for claims of sincerity. While American law tries to prevent a man from becoming what Justice Scalia in Smith called “,” something of the sort is happening when a person claims that his faith prevents him from following the normal course of obedience. My conversation today helps illuminate some of this in a profound way, specifically looking at Soren Kierkegaard’s ethical system and considering its corollary in the rule of law. My guest is Joshua Neoh, a senior lecturer in law at the Australian National University (ANU), Australia. He has an LLB, LLM and PhD from the ANU, Yale and Cambridge, respectively. His paper at the heart of this conversation is called Kierkegaardian Ethics and the Rule of Law, available . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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196. Pursuing Justice in a Violent Land (Part II) — Kurt Ver Beek & Emily Cole
09/03/2025
196. Pursuing Justice in a Violent Land (Part II) — Kurt Ver Beek & Emily Cole
In , Ross Halperin and I laid a foundation for the work of ASJ in Honduras under the leadership of Kurt Ver Beek and others. In this episode, I am joined by Kurt himself to discuss his exchange of letters between Nicholas Wolterstorff in a wonderful book, , which looks at the meaning of justice and the work ASJ. Kurt is joined by Emily Cole, who has focused on Latin America most of her career and remains a passionate advocate for the well-being and development of that region. I speak to them about a number of things, focusing on the structural details of working in the area, including the difference between social justice and community development, the importance of long-term missionary work, the significance of elections, working with the government, and more. Kurt and his wife, Jo Ann Van Engen, are currently the directors of , which studies the concept of justice in relation to history, economics, politics, sociology, and development in Honduras. Both are founding members of the (ASJ) in Honduras. ASJ seeks to do justice in Honduras and inspire others around the world to seek justice in their own contexts. Emily Cole is a lawyer and an advocate, writing about poetry, human rights, and community development, with a focus on Latin America. For more on her work on covenantal pluralism, go . She also recently wrote for the Journal of Christian Legal Thought considering the role of the poetic imagination in Latin America. Read it . Both are Fulbright recipients, with a focus on work in Honduras and Ecuador, respectively. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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195. Pursuing Justice in a Violent Land (Part I) — Ross Halperin
08/21/2025
195. Pursuing Justice in a Violent Land (Part I) — Ross Halperin
Today, we start a two-part journey into the heart of Honduran society. Our focus will be on one man, Kurt Ver Beek, and the organization he co-founded, . Kurt is a professor of Sociology (Emeritus) at Calvin University and lead investigator for an agreement between Transparency International, the Honduran Government, and ASJ. For this first episode, we are joined by the reporter Ross Halperin, whose recent biography () of Kurt’s ministry (New York Times profile ) paints a fascinating picture of a man dedicated to the cause of justice. While Ross and I do not discuss the entire scope of the book, we do focus on the criminal justice system and the many barriers erected for victims seeking relief. Ross and I talk about how he came to write the book, the work of ASJ in helping reduce the violence in Honduras, some of the main characters in the story, and much more. Ross attended Harvard University and worked under Mark A. R. Kleiman, one of the world’s leading criminal-justice scholars. He started reporting this story in 2018 and has since spent much of his time in Honduras. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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194. Building an AI-Savvy Workforce — Kevin Frazier
07/16/2025
194. Building an AI-Savvy Workforce — Kevin Frazier
My conversation today is on the necessity of adaptive leadership in the coming wave that is artificial intelligence. My guest is Kevin Frazier, the newly minted AI Innovation and Law Fellow at The University of Texas School of Law. His article () in Law & Liberty is called Building an AI-Savvy Workforce. His new podcast, Scaling Law (), is excellent. Find his other work at Lawfare (). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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193. Ten Commandments in Classrooms — Mark David Hall & Andrea Picciotti-Bayer
07/02/2025
193. Ten Commandments in Classrooms — Mark David Hall & Andrea Picciotti-Bayer
On June 20, 2025, the Fifth Circuit returned its decision in the Louisiana Ten Commandments case (), upholding the District Courts order blocking the law from going into effect. This was followed by a petition on June 26 for a rehearing en banc by the State (). At the same time, Texas passed its on bill () requiring displays of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. On June 24, that law was challenged in the Northern District of Texas () by a group of parents seeking to stop the bill from going into effect. Needless to say, our topic today is very timely, discussing the history of public displays of the Ten Commandments in public schools. My guests are Mark David Hall and Andrea Picciotti-Bayer, who wrote an article on the topic pending publication in the William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal entitled Ten Commandments in the Public Square and Public Schools (). Mark David Hall () joined the faculty of the Robertson School of Government at Regent University in 2023. He is one of the most outstanding scholars of early America, whose many distinguished publications have argued persuasively for the crucial importance of Christianity in the flourishing of America’s experiment in ordered liberty. Andrea Picciotti-Bayer () is Director of the Conscience Project. A Stanford-educated lawyer, she has dedicated her legal career to civil rights and appellate advocacy. She got her start as a trial and appellate attorney in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. Prior to leading the Conscience Project, she served as the legal advisor for the Catholic Association, filing amicus briefs with federal courts of appeal and the U.S. Supreme Court in key religious freedom and free speech cases. Resources noted by the guests: , John Witte's , and The Sacred Rights of Conscience () book. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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192. The Death & New Life of Law and Religion — Marc O. DeGirolami
06/18/2025
192. The Death & New Life of Law and Religion — Marc O. DeGirolami
This week, we have a special episode. One near and dear to my heart and my own intellectual history. It is a conversation with professor Marc O. DeGirolami on his piece published in the Oxford Journal of Law & Religion covering the life and death of law and religion. Read it . In it, he takes us into the first wave of this movement and its advent forces with those like Harold Berman and John Witte, Jr., who took on the critical mantle of reacting to “the deconstruction of the American Christian legal heritage proceeding apace in the courts and the academy.” DeGirolami discusses the priorities that animated the early scholars of this movement and its eventual decline due not only to various forms of categorical capitulations and concept desuetude, but also the ravages of retirements and the changing landscape of legal discourse. We talk about all this and more! Marc is the inaugural St. John Henry Newman Professor of Law and Co-Director of the Center for Law and the Human Person. . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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SPECIAL EPISODE: Integrating Faith in Legal Practice — Boatman Ricci (Foundations Series)
06/11/2025
SPECIAL EPISODE: Integrating Faith in Legal Practice — Boatman Ricci (Foundations Series)
The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development. My guests today are James A. Boatman & Stephen Schahrer, collectively from the Florida law firm Boatman Ricci. James is a commercial litigator with extensive experience in both federal and state courts. He has handled a broad spectrum of matters including: contract enforcement; foreclosure prosecution/defense; internet wire fraud prosecution; special asset recovery; construction defect litigation; common law tort cases (fraud, defamation, etc.) and many others. Stephen handles legal matters for clients from “all walks of life” in the area of business and commercial litigation including business litigation, construction defect and lien litigation, real estate litigation, general contract litigation, and trust and estate litigation. Stephen also serves as outside General Counsel to several local businesses and nonprofits. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.
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191. Religious Law Schools, Rankings, & Bias — Michael Conklin
05/28/2025
191. Religious Law Schools, Rankings, & Bias — Michael Conklin
With the release of U.S. News Rankings , renewed interest has surfaced regarding the parameters and impact of placement. Where law schools fall speaks to not only the quality of their percieved education, but also success regarding student employment and faculty publication. On this episode, I speak with Michael Conklin, a scholar who’s been measuring bias within the Rankings system, this time focusing his attention on religious law schools. His paper, soon to be published in the Florida Journal of Law & Public Policy, is entitled . Dr. Michael Conklin is the Visiting Assistant Professor of Business Law at Texas A&M University Central Texas and a lecturer at Texas A&M University School of Law. and . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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SPECIAL EPISODE: Relational Wisdom for Lawyers — Ken Sande (Wellness Program)
05/14/2025
SPECIAL EPISODE: Relational Wisdom for Lawyers — Ken Sande (Wellness Program)
It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together. In this special episode, Michelle Williams talks to Ken Sande about relational wisdom, emotional intelligence, and developing healthy habits in navigating the challenges of legal pratice. Helpful resources for continuing education: Relational Wisdom 360 [] A Stolen Baby, $200M Lawsuit and an Astonishing Reconciliation [] Attorneys as Peacemakers and Conciliators [] Reconciled by a Baby Moose [] Lincoln's Relational Wisdom [] Emotional Intelligence for (Secular) Attorneys [] For more with Ken Sande, listen to our other conversatioin . Link to SUBSTACK . Music Credit: Tokyo Music Walker
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190. Play In The Joints — Falco Anthony Muscante II
05/08/2025
190. Play In The Joints — Falco Anthony Muscante II
For most of the second half of 20th century, the Supreme Court has wrestled with finding a balance between the Free Exercise of religion and the Establishment Clause, offering several tests to test the limits of permissible accommodation without the undue appearance of government endorsement. Among those tests has been a little-thing called the “play in the joints,” famously introduced in Walz v. Tax Commissioner of New York (1970). In this episode, I explore this concept with Falco Anthony Muscante II, whose paper in the Ave Marie Law Review is called . In our conversation, we discuss the history of the religious clause and what the framers intended, how the concept emerged and became weaponized in , why the Court has latched on to the idea of state neutrality and how that impacts religion, and more. Falco Anthony Muscante II earned his J.D. in 2023 from the Duquesne University School of Law, where he served on the executive boards for the Law Review and Appellate Moot Court Board. He is an alumnus of Grove City College, where he graduated summa cum laude with a B.S. Management, minor in Pre-Law, and concentration in Human Resources. Falco is a litigation associate at a big law firm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, soon headed to clerk for the Third Circuit. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento
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SPECIAL EPISODE: Integrating Faith in Legal Practice — Joe Ruta & Stephen Lyon (Foundations Series)
04/24/2025
SPECIAL EPISODE: Integrating Faith in Legal Practice — Joe Ruta & Stephen Lyon (Foundations Series)
The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development. My guests today are Joe Ruta and Stephen Lyon. Joe is a Partner of Ruta, Soulios, & Stratis LLP. He is outside general counsel to over 30 corporations ranging from startups to public companies as well as not-for-profits. . Stephen is a deputy assistant public defender working in Connecticut. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.
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189. Natural Law and Its Discontents — Josiah Wolfe
04/16/2025
189. Natural Law and Its Discontents — Josiah Wolfe
The recent publication of Melissa Moschella’s has renewed interest in the application of natural law to human flourishing. A topic that has undergone a resurgence among not only Catholics, but also Protestants with seminal publications from those like , , and . Seeing students engaging in this tradition has been rewarding and today I speak to one of those students, Josiah Wolfe, and his article in the Campbell Law Observer entitled, . We talk about the early stages of his interest in the topic, whether he’s seeing the natural law in his assignment, how he approaches , the relationship between legislation and divine ordinance, and much more. Josiah is a second-year law student at Campbell University School of Law and is a Staff Writer for the Campbell Law Observer. He grew up in North Carolina and graduated summa cum laude from Charter Oak College with a B.S. in Business Administration. He was also a CLS Fellow in 2024. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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188. Called to Freedom — Brad Littlejohn
04/02/2025
188. Called to Freedom — Brad Littlejohn
A popular refrain from both the left and the right in American society is one concerning the importance of liberty for the flourishment of their respective communities. But what does true freedom look like and, perhaps more importantly, how does one come to attain it and then keep it in a world like our own. This week, I am joined by Brad Littlejohn to talk about his new book, . In our conversation, we discuss the journey of writing this book, the nature and meaning of liberty in all of its areas, role of obligation and virtue, the influence of modern technology on freedom, and more. Brad is the Director of Programs and Education at and president emeritus at . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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SPECIAL EPISODE: What Hath Christ To Do With Rights? — Kristina Arriaga (Witte Lectures)
03/19/2025
SPECIAL EPISODE: What Hath Christ To Do With Rights? — Kristina Arriaga (Witte Lectures)
The John Witte, Jr. Lecture Series on Christianity & Law is back! A new venture from Christian Legal Society aimed at advancing the conversation surrounding the integration of Christianity & law. In our second lecture inspired by the American 19th century painters, we go international and ask what contributions Christianity made to advancing human rights. Our keynote is Kristina Arriaga, who digs deep into her Cuban heritage to bring us a fascinating lecture on the Christian jurists who paved the way for our modern rights framework. She was joined by Justice Jamie R. Grosshans (Florida Supreme Court) for a period of Q&A after the lecture. For more on Kristina's work, see . If you would like to hear the introductions by Anton Sorkin and John Witte, Jr., and the Q&A with Justice Jamies R. Grosshans, check out the full version . SPONSOR: The Witte Lectures are sponsored by . SOUND: Special thanks to Josh Deng for his technical support in getting this audio ready. MUSIC: Prelude No. 2 by Chris Zabriskie. SPECIAL THANKS to Stephanie Barclay for writing a wonderful biogrpahy for Kristina in the Program.
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187. Refugees, Migrants, & the Church — Matthew Soerens
03/05/2025
187. Refugees, Migrants, & the Church — Matthew Soerens
Today, a sharply divided Supreme Court reinstated a lower-court order for the Trump administration to release frozen foreign aid. In this episode, I talk with Matthew Soerens of about some of the recent executive orders and how marginalized voices can help restore the American church in its places of prominence. Matt began his World Relief journey in 2005 as an intern in Nicaragua. Since then he served as a Department of Justice-accredited legal counselor in Chicagoland before assuming the role of U.S. Director of Church Mobilization and Advocacy. He is the co-author of three books including (InterVarsity Press, 2018) and (InterVarsity Press, 2022). He is a graduate of Wheaton College, where he has also served as a guest faculty member in the Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership program, and earned a master’s degree from DePaul University’s School of Public Service. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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186. Title VII & Religious Accommodation — Blaine L. Hutchison & Bruce Cameron
02/19/2025
186. Title VII & Religious Accommodation — Blaine L. Hutchison & Bruce Cameron
Today we delve into the world of Title VII by looking at the pending case in Carter v. Transp. Workers Union of Am. Local 556. The focus of our discussion will be on the paper from Blaine Hutchison in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, entitled Title VII’s Religious Liberty Rules in Carter (). Blaine is joined by one of the premier experts in the field of employment law and also my old professor, Bruce Cameron. As part of this conversation, we lay out some history for Religious Accommodation claims, the importance of protecting the conscience, the freewheelin’ accommodation claim (for more, see ), the background in Carter, and more. Professor Bruce Cameron () teaches employment discrimination law at Regent University School of Law and has been litigating religious accommodation cases for the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation for four decades. Blaine Hutchinson () is a staff attorney with the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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185. Christianity & the "Liberal" Income Tax — Andrew Hayashi
02/05/2025
185. Christianity & the "Liberal" Income Tax — Andrew Hayashi
Many people hate the tax system. It is perhaps the one universal solvent that can bring people together. In this episode, I discuss the income tax system and whether it can actually produce a more equitable society. My guest is Andrew Hayashi, whose paper we discuss is entitled and was printed in the Notre Dame Journal of Law, Ethics, & Public Policy. We discuss some basics of income tax, the Christian critics of liberalism, whether the tax system is in fact liberal, what it can do to achieve the common good, and must more. Andrew is an expert in tax law, tax policy and behavioral law and economics. He joined the University of Virginia School of Law's faculty in July 2013. He is a McDonald Distinguished Fellow at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University. Prior to joining the Law School, he was the Nourallah Elghanayan Research Fellow at the Furman Center for Real Estate and Urban Policy at New York University, where his research focused on the effects of tax policy on real estate and housing markets. Before joining the Furman Center, he practiced tax law as an associate at Davis Polk & Wardwell. Faculty profile . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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SPECIAL EPISODE: Living Well — Starr Tomczak (Wellness Program)
01/28/2025
SPECIAL EPISODE: Living Well — Starr Tomczak (Wellness Program)
It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently , "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together. Our first episode was with Ruth Haley Barton on Establishing Rhythms & Abiding in God (). Our second was with Dr. Barbara L. Peacock on developing spiritual disciplines for soul care (). On this episode, we are joined by Starr Tomczak to discuss her brand new book called . Starr not only went to law school and had a succesful law practice as a corporate lawyer, but she also felt the calling to enter seminary and eventually write this book. She has a BA from Carleton College, a JD from New York University Law School, and an MDiv from Union Theological Seminary in New York City. Check out her website . Music Credit(s): Tokyo Music Walker & Rexlambo.
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184. Calling Is More Than Your Job — Steven Zhou
01/15/2025
184. Calling Is More Than Your Job — Steven Zhou
Many people use the language of "calling" without considering the scope and duration of that word and what it really means to align one’s gifts with community need. In this episode, I get to explore some of these issues with Steven Zhou, a postdoc researcher on the meaning of calling and the author of a Christianity Today piece entitled . Steven and I delve deep into the sociological understanding of calling, what it means to align skills with need, to what extent pride and perserverance play a role in self-understanding, and more. At the heart of our conversation is academic study. Steven completed his Ph.D. in Industrial & Organizational Psychology from George Mason University, studying under Dr. Stephen Zaccaro and Dr. Philseok Lee. He previously received a B.A. in Industrial & Organizational Psychology and M.A. in Religion from Pepperdine University. He also has four years of full-time applied work experience in human resources, data analytics, and non-profit management along with consulting experience in leadership development and data analysis. Full bio . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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183. Faith Through Lawyering — Randy Lee
01/08/2025
183. Faith Through Lawyering — Randy Lee
Happy New Years! To start off the year right, I wanted to go back to basics: faith through lawyering. My guest is Randy Lee, a veteran in the field, writing on the topic of the Christian lawyer for over three decades. His insights can be found within a body of work (see links ), but the paper we mostly focused on () was a book review he did on Joseph G. Allegretti's The Lawyer's Calling: Christian Faith and Legal Practice. Randy teaches constitutional law, professional responsibility, torts and various writing and advocacy courses. Professor Lee has taught previously at the Villanova and University of Pittsburgh Law Schools and in the Harvard University Summer Program. NOTE: This episode pairs well with the one featuring Jeff Ventrella on his experiences as a man of faith in big law (). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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182. Artificial Intelligence & Access to Justice — Kevin T. Frazier
12/25/2024
182. Artificial Intelligence & Access to Justice — Kevin T. Frazier
In the last few weeks, there has been two excellent podcasts that showcase the depths of what legal learning could provide. In the first, a conversation () about the history and framework for the federal constitution, taught largely from an incredible five volume work entitled . The second comes from our friends at the Mattone Center for Law and Religion (), featuring two Fordham law professors who have launched a forum for law students looking to discuss C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. Fortuitous as it is, we have supplemented on this Christmas Day with a third dimension of legal education, which is the question of access to justice and the role of lawyers in improving the lives of their neighbors. My guest is Kevin T. Frazier, who has written an excellent, short piece for the Federalist Society () entitled Artificial Intelligence Can Improve Access to Justice, But the Legal Profession Has a Role to Play. Kevin and I talk about a number of things, including what access to justice means, what are legal deserts, why representation is so important, the various digital tools already out there, and more. Kevin joined St. Thomas University Benjamin L. Crump College of Law as an Assistant Professor of Law in 2023. He teaches administrative law, constitutional law, and civil procedure. Prior to joining STU Law, he served as a Judicial Clerk on the Montana Supreme Court and conducted research on regulating AI as a Research Fellow with the Legal Priorities Project. As of September 2024, he became a Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin. Faculty page . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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181. The Diary of a Black Christian Female Law Student — Jeanelle Angus & Lakuita Bittle
12/11/2024
181. The Diary of a Black Christian Female Law Student — Jeanelle Angus & Lakuita Bittle
In this special end of the semester episode, I get to talk to two amazing black Christian women about their experiences in law school. And not just in law school, but also the entire process surrounding getting in and getting out. The book at the heart of this discussion is from Jeanelle Angus entitled . As part of this conversation, we talk about the path of “most” resistance in getting to law school, what it was like realizing their minority status once there, the pressure of having to represent for their communities, various ways they overcame struggles, and much more. My first guest is Jeanelle C. Angus, a law student at the University of New Hampshire Franklin Pierce School of Law, graduating in May 2025. My second guest is attorney Lakuita Bittle, who attended the UDC David A. Clarke School of Law in Washington, D.C. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
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180. The Kids Aren't Alright — Amy Levin
12/04/2024
180. The Kids Aren't Alright — Amy Levin
This week, we continue our conversation on mental health and the various reasons why law students don’t get the help they need. My guest is Amy Levin—someone who not only understands the legal profession but has also spent much time studying mental health. Amy has written a new paper entitled , in which she discusses the decline in law student mental health and encourages law schools to take steps to normalize mental well-being and to support students in seeking help. In our discussion, we focus on common stressors, which students struggle the most, why other professions seem to be doing better, and how law students can improve their own mental health. Amy is a Clinical Professor of Law at LMU Loyola Law School, Los Angeles. She graduated from the UCLA School of Law, Program in Public Interest Law and Policy, and the Department of Social Welfare, where she earned a JD/MSW. Amy also worked for ten years at Arnold & Porter as a litigation attorney and clerked for the Honorable Richard A. Paez of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. . Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento. NOTE: In an effort to help normalize the conversation surrounding mental health, CLS launched the Wellness Program as part of Law Student Ministries. We hope to provide you not only training and support, but also forums where these topics can be discussed and destigmatized. Our first three conversations can be found (w/ Dr. Tina Armstrong on healthy leadership), (w/ Ruth Haley Barton on daily rhythms), and (w/ Dr. Barbara L. Peacock on soul care).
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SPECIAL EPISODE: Spiritual Practices for Soul Care — Dr. Barbara L. Peacock (Wellness Program)
11/27/2024
SPECIAL EPISODE: Spiritual Practices for Soul Care — Dr. Barbara L. Peacock (Wellness Program)
It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently , "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together. Our first episode was with Ruth Haley Barton on Establishing Rhythms & Abiding in God (). This week, we are joined by Dr. Barbara L. Peacock to talk about spiritual disciplines as soul care. Dr. Peacock is the author of the award-winning book Soul Care in African American Practice ( + ). Her newest book is Spiritual Practices for Soul Care 40 Ways to Deepen your Faith (). She is passionate about the disciplines of prayer, spiritual direction (soul care), lectio, and visio divina. In 2013 she founded Barbara L. Peacock Ministries. This ministry is committed to providing safe spaces for encounters with God. She founded Peacock Soul Care, whose mission is focused on nurturing souls, educating minds, and cultivating spirituality through soul care and spiritual experiences. Her personal website is Her ministry website is . Music Credit(s): Tokyo Music Walker & Rexlambo.
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