Personal Guarantees & Loan Covenants: How to Not Get Burned, Ep #17
Release Date: 05/01/2025
Cash Flow Power Moves: Pricing, Terms & Tools That Protect Your Business, Ep #33
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In this special crossover episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne joins Josh McCain on The Throughput Show for a fully interactive, live conversation about one of the most misunderstood and mission-critical topics in manufacturing: cash flow. Unlike traditional episodes, this one unfolds in real time with audience questions, open dialogue, and the kind of raw, honest examples operators rarely get to hear outside of private masterminds. Josh kicks off the episode with his hallmark energy and levity—complete with an unexpected “musical” intro for guests Mike, Jon Hughes,...
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The Section 179 Trap: Why Tax Breaks Shouldn’t Drive Your Equipment Purchases, Ep #32
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When Section 179 and bonus depreciation come back into play, it’s easy to get swept up in the excitement of “saving on taxes.” Every year around this time, I start hearing from shop owners who are ready to buy a new machine before the end of Q4—sometimes for the right reasons, but often for the wrong ones. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good deduction as much as anyone. But if you wouldn’t buy that equipment without the tax break, you probably shouldn’t buy it because of it. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with my good friend Ty Willis from Verdant...
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How Foreign Trade Zones Can Unlock Millions in Working Capital, Ep #31
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When tariffs, trade policy, and cash flow collide, manufacturers are forced to think creatively—or risk being crushed by uncertainty. That’s exactly where Mary Buchzeiger, CEO of Lucerne International and Lucerne Global Solutions, found herself. With skyrocketing tariffs on imported automotive components, Mary realized the solution wasn’t to absorb the hit—it was to rewrite the playbook altogether. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, we dig into how Mary leveraged a little-known financial and logistical strategy: the Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ). By turning Lucerne’s Michigan...
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Building a KPI Culture That Drives Real Improvement on the Shop Floor, Ep #30
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In this episode of Buy the Numbers, host Mike Payne sits down with continuous improvement coach and Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt Brian Karp to dig into the metrics that matter most for manufacturing leaders. Together, they explore how data can be used not just to measure performance, but to transform culture, drive engagement, and spark meaningful improvement across every department. For more than a decade, Brian has helped manufacturers simplify their approach to measurement—turning overwhelming spreadsheets and endless KPIs into tools that actually guide better decisions....
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Inside the Numbers: Roger Atkins’ MTForecast 2025 Preview for Small Manufacturers, Ep #29
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In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Roger Atkins, President of the National Tooling and Machining Association (NTMA), to talk about the real state of U.S. manufacturing as we close out 2025. Representing more than 1,000 small and medium manufacturers nationwide, Roger brings a boots-on-the-ground perspective to the headwinds, opportunities, and trends shaping the industry right now. The conversation goes well beyond statistics to explore the forces behind them. Roger shares his preview of the MTForecast conference and NTMA’s ENGAGE event, pulling back the curtain on survey...
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From First Questions to First Deals: Navigating Machine Shop Acquisitions, Ep #28
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When you’re buying a machine shop for the first time, it’s easy to feel like you’re lost in the dark. I’ve been through more than 150 transactions in my career, but I still remember what it was like sitting across from my first seller—wondering if I was asking the right questions or if I was missing something important. That’s why I love conversations like this one. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Jeff Lee, Operations Manager at Hayer Engineering in Singapore. Jeff reached out after listening to some of our episodes on acquisitions, and the quality of his...
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Top Shops Benchmarking: The Numbers That Separate Leaders from the Rest, Ep #27
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In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne sits down with Dave Necessary, Executive Vice President of Products and Markets at Gardner Business Media, to dig into the power of benchmarking and the Top Shops program. For more than a decade, Top Shops has been the definitive survey that shows manufacturers where they stand—highlighting the practices, strategies, and investments that consistently separate the best from everyone else. Dave shares how the survey functions like a business health check-up, providing both an industry-wide benchmarking standards report and a...
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Beyond the Highest Bid: Selling Your Business with Legacy in Mind, Ep #26
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Selling a business is rarely just about the numbers—and in this episode of Buy the Numbers, we explore why. Recorded at the CLA Connect Center in Minnesota, Mike Payne and guest co-host Erin Mickels sit down with two sets of owners who have recently gone through the process of selling their companies. From fielding unsolicited offers to choosing between 26 potential buyers, their stories highlight the strategic, emotional, and deeply personal factors that shape a sale. Joel Bauer of Midsota Manufacturing shares his unlikely journey from part-time welder to co-owner of a thriving...
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Legacy, Liquidity, and the Long Game: What Really Happens After the LOI (Part II), Ep #25
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If you think selling your business is just about getting the highest number, think again. In Part II of my conversation with the all-star team at CLA—Erin Mickels, Mike Britten, and Mike Pohl—we dig into the fine print that can make or break your deal after the handshake. From LOIs to sales price allocations to working capital battles, this is where the real money is won or lost. We start with what seems like a formality—signing the LOI—but as you’ll hear, that’s often the moment your leverage walks out the door. I’ve seen it firsthand: missed tax planning, bad...
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Legacy, Liquidity, and the Long Game: Building Value Before You Sell, Ep #24
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If you’ve ever thought, “I’ll sell when I’m ready”—you’re already behind. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with three powerhouse advisors from CLA—Erin Mickels (owner transition expert), Mike Britten (tax wizard), and Mike Pohl (wealth whisperer)—to unpack what it really takes to set yourself up for a successful exit from your manufacturing business. We talk through the overlooked planning window between “someday I’ll sell” and “it’s time to list.” Whether you're ten years out or just three, this conversation will help...
info_outlineMost of us would never machine a part without checking the tolerances first — so why do so many shop owners sign off on financing agreements without understanding the performance “tolerances” our banks are quietly measuring us against?
In this episode of Buy the Numbers, commercial banker Danny O’Keefe returns to break down two terms that sound like dry legal jargon but carry real operational consequences: loan covenants and personal guarantees. If your shop relies on bank financing to grow, these aren't just details — they’re the guardrails shaping what we can do, and what could get us in trouble.
Loan covenants aren’t just something we sign and forget. They’re the metrics banks use to judge whether our business is still a safe bet. From debt service coverage to balance sheet leverage and owner distributions, these numbers can quietly restrict how we grow, how we pay ourselves, and how much flexibility we have in tough times. If we’re not checking them ourselves when we close the books, we could be tripping violations without even knowing — and that’s a problem our lender won’t ignore.
Then there’s the personal guarantee — something a lot of us sign with a shrug, not realizing what it really means. We dig into how it works, when it’s enforced, and why it's not usually about losing your house — it’s about staying accountable and engaged if the business hits rough waters. With real-world examples, Danny explains how guarantees play out in practice, how banks try to resolve issues, and why going dark is the worst move you can make.
The biggest surprise for many: almost everything about your loan is negotiable — including the covenants and guarantees. But only if you understand your balance sheet, your bank’s priorities, and how to advocate for yourself. Whether you’re taking out your first note or renegotiating a renewal, this episode gives you the tools to treat your financing like a partnership, not a one-and-done transaction.
By the end, you’ll walk away with a clearer view of your bank relationship — not just as a source of capital, but as a strategic tool. One that, when managed well, can protect you and your shop… and when ignored, can quietly start to chip away at your freedom to operate.
You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...
- (0:00) What personal guarantees really mean—and why banks don’t want your keys
- (0:29) Achieve on-time delivery with ProShop ERP
- (1:58) Guest reintroduction: Danny’s background in commercial lending for shops
- (4:48) Defining the "big scary words": Loan covenants and personal guarantees
- (8:12) How banks evaluate owner distributions and when limits apply
- (9:50) Balance sheet leverage: Why your assets vs. liabilities matter
- (12:53) UCC filings: What they are and why they get overlooked
- (14:37) Proactive vs. reactive reporting: How to stay on your bank’s good side
- (23:44) Types of personal guarantees and what really triggers enforcement
- (26:46) Learn how to grow your top and bottom-line with CLA
- (30:24) What happens in worst-case scenarios—and how communication can save you
- (34:14) How outside consultants and investors can step in when banks get nervous
- (40:57) What a strong balance sheet might mean for guarantees
- (46:43) Negotiating your covenants: Why the whole loan is a conversation
- (52:54) The most important things to pay attention to at closing
- (56:35) Why you need to listen to the MakingSparks podcast
Resources & People Mentioned
- Achieve on-time delivery with ProShop ERP
- Banking Secrets for Manufacturers: How to Secure the Cash You Need, Ep #12
Connect with Dan O’Keefe
- Busey Bank
- Connect on LinkedIn
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Audio Production and Show Notes by - PODCAST FAST TRACK