Buy the Numbers

A deep dive into the financials of running a Manufacturing business.

The 9 Numbers That Tell You If Your Marketing Is Working | Ep. 51 07/23/2026

The 9 Numbers That Tell You If Your Marketing Is Working | Ep. 51 You spend money on a website, LinkedIn posts, maybe some email and a trade show booth, and then you ask the question every owner asks: is any of this actually working? For most of us the honest answer is a gut feel. The machines are cutting chips, so marketing must be doing its job. That is not data, and on this episode I wanted real, practical advice on how to know. So I brought in Brendon Forrest from Gorilla 76, cohost of The Manufacturing Marketer, to walk through it with me. Brendon's whole world is building and running marketing programs for manufacturers, and he came with a list of nine metrics that turn marketing from a guessing game into a set of numbers you can manage the same way you manage scrap rate or on-time delivery. Along the way we get into the difference between a marketing qualified lead and a sales qualified lead, why you should probably count deals instead of dollars, and how to back into a marketing goal from your growth number. I also come clean about something a lot of you will recognize. For years my CRM lived in my head, and that is exactly why good opportunities slipped through the cracks. Brendon makes the case for getting that out of your brain and into a system, and explains why speed to lead matters so much: the shop that follows up first almost always wins the deal. We close on the metrics that do not matter, the vanity numbers that make you feel good but never tie back to revenue, and a simple five-step framework you can start using today. Set a goal, capture the data, analyze it, then execute. Same as everything else we talk about on this show, because the math does not lie. What's Covered in this Episode (0:15) Welcome to Buy the Numbers, and why even a one-person shop is already a marketer (0:53) Brendon Forrest joins the show for the first time, from Gorilla 76 and The Manufacturing Marketer (3:42) The real question every owner asks: I'm marketing, but is it working? (5:01) IMTS Job Shops Workshop and Networking Reception, Tuesday September 15, a half-day built for shop pros. Register at IMTS.com (5:57) Marketing is just data gathering: It’s another business function you should invest in (7:01) How marketing and sales work together as one funnel (8:48) Pipeline metrics: new contacts, marketing qualified leads, and sales qualified leads (12:34) MQL-to-SQL conversion rate (and what a low number tells you) (14:21) Revenue metrics: opportunities opened and what matters most long term (17:03) Count deals or dollars, and the lead-time problem that a CRM solves (23:14) Mike's growth math and backing into how many MQLs a month you actually need (26:38) Pinpoint whether you have a lead-gen problem or a closing problem (27:34) ProShop ERP: implement best practices shop-wide and see fast ROI (29:11) Efficiency metrics: cost per opportunity, web traffic, and how AI search is changing it (35:19) The qualitative story: green, yellow, red tracking of lead quality and why the trend matters (39:13) Verdant Capital: get pre-qualified for equipment financing before IMTS, application only, good for 90 days (40:08) CRMs: Why Brendon recommends HubSpot for small shops (45:31) The metrics that don't matter: attribution, open rates, and the 3,500 dollar IMTS badge scan (50:49) The 5 steps you need to take to hit your goals Resources Mentioned Connect with Brendon Forrest Connect with Brendon Forrest on Listen to /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/42175070

The Owner Bottleneck: How Getting Out of the Way Can Double Your Shop's Value, Ep #50 07/09/2026

The Owner Bottleneck: How Getting Out of the Way Can Double Your Shop's Value, Ep #50 Most shop owners believe the number on their business is locked in by their earnings. It isn't. Two shops with identical profit can sell for wildly different prices, and the gap almost always comes back to one question a buyer is quietly working out in their head: does this thing run without you? For this one I brought back Phil Hanke from CLA and added Heather Parbst, who leads CLA's owner transition advisory team, to dig into the owner bottleneck. Not the operational kind everybody talks about, but the identity kind. The traits that built your shop—the grind, the "I'll just do it myself," the standards nobody else can hit—are the same traits that keep you buried in the day to day and cap what your business is worth. We get into the math, too. In precision machining, a business that leans entirely on the owner tends to trade around two to two and a half times earnings. Take the owner out of the critical path and that same business can fetch five, six, even seven times. Same earnings, double the value. Inside a three-year window your earnings are what they are, but the multiple is still yours to move, and the multiple is really what this conversation is about. We also get honest about the part nobody plans for: what happens after. Heather walks through why owners have to uncouple their identity from the business years before they sell, and what it feels like when the social equity you built over decades disappears the day you hand over the keys. If you've ever answered "what do you do?" with "I own a shop" and felt that was who you are, this one lands close to home. Whether you're one year or fifteen years out, the move is the same. Start now. Build the team, install the culture, and get clear on what you love and what you should hand off. I close with the simple four-bucket exercise I use to decide what stays on my plate and what goes. What's Covered in this Episode (0:00) The four-bucket exercise: keep what you love and do well, hand off the rest (0:52) Phil Hanke returns and introduces Heather Parbst, who leads CLA's owner transition advisory team (2:44) Two kinds of bottlenecks: operational problems versus identity beliefs (5:40) CLA helps manufacturers unlock revenue and cost savings. Hear real stories at claconnect.com (6:17) The traits that grew your shop are the same ones now trapping you inside it (9:17) When the business becomes your whole identity, and nobody does it your way (11:25) Build a culture of continuous improvement so the team carries the load, not you (13:20) Servant leadership: setting the vision, clearing hurdles, and allowing the team to fail small, without blame (18:26) Mike's email example: coach the team to your standard, then step out (21:28) Navu adds AI chat to your website so buyers get accurate answers fast. navu.co/makingchips (22:40) Does company size decide when the bottleneck bites? Assets versus real enterprise value (25:07) The $1.5M to $2.5M, twelve-employee shop where the owner does everything (27:13) The owner bottleneck: how holding every relationship discounts your multiple, and where to start (30:30) Shift from operator to architect: build leaders and ask questions instead of giving answers (32:37) The real work: uncouple your identity and self-worth from the business (36:01) Heather's hometown social equity vanished the day she sold her business (37:45) You can only golf so much: finding sustainable purpose after ownership (39:24) Hire MFG Leaders is built by shop owners, not just recruiters. makingchips.com/hire (39:53) Letting go: the "launch the kid" analogy for a business that runs without you (42:55) Mike's four-bucket matrix for what to keep and what to hire out (48:19) Closing advice from Heather: start early, don't wait until you're burnt out (49:38) The multiple is easier to change than the earnings, so remove yourself and double the value (50:48) How to reach Heather and Phil at CLA Resources Mentioned Give buyers reliable, accurate answers in real time by adding AI chat to your website with Connect with Heather Parbst and Phil Hanke Connect with by email or call her direct line at 407-244-9385 Connect with on LinkedIn Follow on for weekly manufacturing articles, worksheets, and resources /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/41993670

Think Like a Buyer: How to Maximize Your Shop's Value Before You Sell 06/25/2026

Think Like a Buyer: How to Maximize Your Shop's Value Before You Sell Most shop owners never sell a business before the day they actually sell theirs. You build something for thirty years, then one phone call later you're trying to figure out what it's worth, what the buyer is really paying for, and why the number in your head doesn't match the offer on the table. The fix is simple to say and hard to do: start thinking like a buyer long before you ever plan to sell. In this episode I sat down with the deal team from CLA (Phil Hanke, Erin Mickels, and Brady Paschke), to walk through what actually moves the value of a manufacturing business. We're in the middle of a massive wave of baby boomer owners heading for the exit, and a lot of them show up ready to be done today, with no runway and no plan. That's rarely the best place to sell from. We get into the math and the art behind it. Your shop trades on a multiple of adjusted EBITDA, but where you land in the range, anywhere from two times to six in precision machining, comes down to the stuff that doesn't show up on a single line: how clean and consistent your books are, how concentrated your customers are, and how much the whole operation depends on you. If a buyer thinks they're buying a job instead of a business, you get discounted. Then there's the part that wrecks more deals than price ever does: structure. Net proceeds, not the headline number, are what actually land in your account. We talk through purchase price allocation, working capital, earn-outs, and seller financing, and why you want those conversations on the table at the letter of intent stage, not six months into diligence. And we don't skip the human side. This is usually the largest and most emotional transaction of an owner's life. We get into legacy, the arrival fallacy, and why knowing your why and your next chapter matters as much as the wire that hits your bank account. If you're anywhere from one to fifteen years out from a transition, there's something in here for you. What's Covered in this Episode (0:00) Meet the CLA crew: Phil Hanke, Erin, and Brady join Mike (3:34) Why now: a wave of boomer owners retiring with no succession plan (5:18) Readiness: a 3 to 5 year runway beats selling off a triggered event (6:40) What a buyer actually buys: your earnings, not your new machines (9:17) Cleaning up the financial house: add-backs, owner comp, related-party items (11:20) The owner-reliance question: can the business run without you? (13:40) Messy books get discounted; clean books are step one (14:52) "Am I buying a job or a business?" The buyer's real worry (18:03) The range in precision machining: 2x to 6x, and what moves it (20:02) Why size matters and enterprise value basics (23:14) The three-year rule: What you can still move late in the game (25:51) How Factur helps suppliers build a consistent sales pipeline (27:00) Step two: personal financial planning, know what you need to net (30:45) A client story: net proceeds, not headline price, got the deal done (32:34) Where deals break: purchase price allocation and working capital (35:43) Earn-outs and seller financing: bridging a valuation gap (40:50) How to get started: reflect on internal vs. external options (43:21) Build your advisor team, starting with your most trusted pro (46:53) Let Navu answer the hard questions for you (48:07) The emotional side: selling your life's work (53:36) Define your purpose before you sell Resources Mentioned Build a consistent sales pipeline with targeted outreach and a free custom report from Add AI chat to your website so buyers get accurate answers in real time with Explore practical manufacturing insights from CLA on profitability, automation, growth, and more at Connect with the CLA Team Connect with on LinkedIn Connect with on LinkedIn Connect with on LinkedIn Reach the full team and browse their resources at /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/41784030

Women, Purpose, and Pay: The Honest Conversation Manufacturing Needs to Have, Ep #48 06/11/2026

Women, Purpose, and Pay: The Honest Conversation Manufacturing Needs to Have, Ep #48 Part two of a good conversation is where things usually get real. In this episode, I pick back up with Nush Ahmed and Brooke Laing from Sisterhood of Trades, and we get into the questions most shop owners quietly wonder about but rarely say out loud: why more women aren't walking through the door, what it actually looks like to attract them, and whether our instinct to "just hire good people" is actually enough. One of the things that struck me in this conversation is how simple some of the answers are. Women aren't applying to manufacturing jobs in large numbers not because they don't want to work in a shop, but because many of them have no idea what manufacturing even is as a career option. Visibility is the entry point. And social media, whether you're comfortable with TikTok or not, is where that visibility happens today. If your shop isn't showing up where the next generation is spending time, you're not even in the conversation. We also got real about what the next generation is actually looking for, and it's more nuanced than just higher wages. Purpose matters. Acknowledgment matters. The small things, a "good job" at the end of a shift, a manager who notices when someone puts in extra effort, carry more weight than I expected. That said, we had an honest conversation about total compensation, and I think every business owner who has ever been frustrated by someone turning down a job offer because the hourly rate was a dollar short will find something useful in where that conversation went. We also touched on transparency, specifically what happens when shop owners start being honest with their teams about the economics of running a business. The response is usually not what you'd expect. Most people, when they actually understand the numbers, become more invested, not less. That's a management insight worth sitting with. This is one of those episodes where I walked away having learned something. And when that happens, I like to share it. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in… (0:00) Welcome back and kicking off Part 2 with Nush and Brooke from Sisterhood of Trades (1:35) Why the next generation values purpose as much as a paycheck (and what that means for hiring) (4:55) How showing up at industry events creates real connections across generations (6:24) Your buyers have technical questions. Navu delivers reliable, accurate answers. Learn more at Navu.co/MakingChips (7:35) The visibility problem: women don't enter manufacturing because most don't know it's an option (10:10) Why your shop's social media presence is a recruiting tool whether you use it that way or not (13:07) Show women doing the real work: why representation on social media drives applications (17:42) Take your shop to the next level with DN Solutions (18:57) The positive reinforcement gap and why a simple "good job" can keep someone in the trades (20:54) Can you give hard feedback if you're not giving positive feedback first? (23:33) Why clean bathrooms are a better judge of company culture than most shop owners realize (24:58) Why we love the quality of SMW Autoblok workholding (25:45) Healthcare benefits and why total compensation matters more than the number on an offer letter (33:59) Why being transparent about shop economics helps workers understand what owners are dealing with (37:46) Closing the generational gap: what both sides actually need to do to connect (42:37) How to find Sisterhood of Trades and connect with Nush and Brooke Resources Mentioned Your buyers have technical questions. Navu delivers reliable, accurate answers. Learn more at Take your shop to the next level with Why we love the quality of workholding Connect with Our Guests Nush Ahmed on Brooke Laing on Sisterhood of Trades on Connect with Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/41601705

No Cap: Manufacturing’s Generational Communication Breakdown, Ep #47 05/28/2026

No Cap: Manufacturing’s Generational Communication Breakdown, Ep #47 In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Nush Ahmed and Brooke Laing for one of the more entertaining and eye-opening conversations I’ve had in a while. What started with jokes about generational slang and communication styles quickly turned into a serious discussion about leadership, workplace culture, and what younger generations are actually looking for in manufacturing careers. As someone who’s spent decades building teams and leading manufacturing companies, I’ve seen firsthand how much the workforce has changed. Today, many companies have four or even five generations working side by side, each with different expectations around communication, feedback, work-life balance, and career growth. This episode dives into those differences head-on, from the “no news is good news” mentality many older generations grew up with to the constant feedback and transparency younger workers expect today. We also talked about something I think manufacturing leaders need to hear more often: younger employees want opportunity and involvement, not just a paycheck. Nush and Brooke shared stories about trade shows, networking, community-building, and why companies often miss the mark when they fail to support employees who are trying to grow professionally. Hearing how impactful events like IMTS and industry networking were to their careers reinforced something I strongly believe: if someone on your team wants to learn, connect, and represent your company, you should encourage it. This conversation challenged some of my own assumptions and reinforced others, but more than anything, it highlighted how important communication and intentional leadership are if we want to attract and retain the next generation in manufacturing. Whether you’re a shop owner, manager, or someone entering the trades yourself, there’s a lot in this episode that will probably sound familiar. And yes, there are still plenty of dad jokes and generational roasts mixed in along the way. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Mike reflects on the chaotic and hilarious Toolpath Summit recording session (2:25) Nush and Brooke introduce their backgrounds in trades, manufacturing, and Sisterhood of Trades (4:08) Navigating multiple generations in today’s manufacturing workforce (6:33) Breaking down Gen Z slang, communication styles, and workplace language gaps (12:02) How generational communication differences affect management and feedback (16:16) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from FacturMFG.com/chips (17:25) Mike shares how Hill Manufacturing intentionally built a younger leadership team (19:56) Why younger workers often feel disconnected from ownership and management (24:35) Red flags Gen Z notices immediately when evaluating employers (26:45) Why older generations often equate long hours with commitment and value (29:46) Gen Z perspectives on work-life balance, proving yourself, and career growth (32:23) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (33:34) The debate around “family culture” in manufacturing companies (36:55) What younger workers actually value most from leadership and workplace culture (38:21) Trying to finance your equipment? Check out Verdantcc.com/numbers (38:54) The role of pay, flexibility, and opportunity in attracting younger talent (40:11) Why employers should support younger workers attending trade shows and industry events (43:10) Brooke shares her experience being laid off after taking time off for industry involvement (44:03) Stay tuned for part two: A conversation around women in manufacturing and social visibility Resources & People Mentioned Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from Grow your top and bottom line with Trying to finance your equipment? Check out Connect with the Sisterhood of Trades on LinkedIn on LinkedIn Sisterhood of Trades on Sisterhood of Trades on Sisterhood of Trades on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/41443720

The Real ROI of Automation: CapEx, Capacity & the Cost of Doing Nothing, Ep #46 05/14/2026

The Real ROI of Automation: CapEx, Capacity & the Cost of Doing Nothing, Ep #46 Recorded live from the DN Solutions open house near Chicago, this special crossover episode blends the worlds of Buy the Numbers and Lights Out into one conversation about manufacturing growth, automation, and the real numbers behind machine tool investments. Surrounded by machines making chips all around us, we dive into what actually drives smart capital expenditures in a modern machine shop. Throughout the episode, we unpack the balancing act between financial discipline and strategic growth. From twin-spindle turning centers to automated five-axis workflows, we discuss how manufacturers should think about throughput, spindle utilization, labor constraints, machine consolidation, and long-term capacity planning. More importantly, we explore how shops can avoid the trap of simply buying equipment because it looks exciting instead of because it solves a real operational need. We also pull back the curtain on how Hill Manufacturing evaluates new opportunities and plans for future growth. Mike walks through a real-world example of assessing a major customer opportunity that could dramatically increase revenue, while simultaneously forcing hard decisions around automation, throughput targets, and production capacity. The result becomes a practical conversation about how manufacturers should approach ROI calculations, CapEx strategy, and investing in capability before they absolutely need it. Along the way, we tackle one of the biggest misconceptions around automation: that it’s about replacing people. In reality, we believe automation is about freeing skilled employees from repetitive, low-value tasks so they can focus on setups, process improvement, and higher-level problem solving. Whether it’s unattended machining, machine monitoring, or smarter workflows, this episode is ultimately about building manufacturing businesses that run more efficiently, scale more intelligently, and create more freedom for the people inside them. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) A special live crossover episode from the DN Solutions open house blends “Buy the Numbers” and “Lights Out” (2:15) Mike and Nick discuss the future “roadshow” concept and why tech centers may be the future of manufacturing events (4:09) Mike explains how he approaches multi-year CapEx planning and evaluating future machine investments (9:10) Why every machine shop should have a formal capital expenditure strategy (11:24) Why we love Verdant Commercial Capital for equipment financing (11:57) How maximizing older equipment and improving workflows can delay unnecessary machine purchases (16:50) How automation, machine monitoring, and tool optimization work together to increase utilization (18:30) Why the numbers matter in manufacturing decisions, even when strategic choices go beyond pure ROI (21:56) The parallels between buying machine tools and acquiring manufacturing businesses (24:43) The rapid pace of innovation in manufacturing software, automation, and shop-floor technology (27:43) The true cost of downtime, DIY fixes, and underestimating the value of people’s time (31:10) Why automation is really about freeing skilled employees to do higher-value work (33:30) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from FacturMFG.com/chips (35:15) Mike walks through evaluating a major new customer opportunity and determining required capacity (40:24) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (41:04) How ROI calculators and throughput modeling help justify major equipment investments (45:37) Why service support and machine uptime are critical factors in choosing machine tool partners (47:16) How automation improves profitability without forcing shops to lower pricing (49:22) Why profitability is essential for taking care of employees, customers, and the broader community Resources & People Mentioned Why we love for equipment financing Grow your top and bottom line with Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/41265860

The PEO Playbook: How Small Shops Compete Like Big Employers, Ep #45 04/30/2026

The PEO Playbook: How Small Shops Compete Like Big Employers, Ep #45 If you’re like most shop owners, HR, payroll, and benefits are necessary evils—important, but far from the reason you got into manufacturing in the first place. Yet those “back-office” functions can quietly drain your time, introduce risk, and even limit your ability to attract and retain great people. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike sits down with Jon from Thrive PEO to unpack one of the most misunderstood tools available to small and mid-sized manufacturers: the Professional Employer Organization (PEO). What starts as a conversation about payroll quickly expands into a broader discussion about risk management, employee benefits, compliance, and how to build a business that can punch above its weight class. They break down common myths—like “we’re too small” or “it’s just outsourced payroll”—and reveal how PEOs actually create leverage. From accessing Fortune 500-level benefits to removing administrative burdens and reducing liability, this episode reframes HR from a cost center into a strategic advantage. But beyond the numbers, this conversation is really about focus. What happens when you reclaim hours every week? What could you do if you stopped worrying about compliance, payroll taxes, and benefits administration—and started reinvesting that time into growth, people, and profitability? If you’ve ever felt stretched thin trying to manage everything yourself, this episode might just introduce the “easy button” your business didn’t know it needed. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) How PEOs give small businesses access to large-company benefits and pricing (2:52) What a PEO is and how it consolidates HR, payroll, and benefits (6:00) Real-world example of fragmented HR functions vs. a unified PEO solution (8:07) Myth: “We’re too small for a PEO” and why size doesn’t matter (11:33) Leveraging pooled buying power to offer better, more affordable benefits (14:57) Breaking down the “too expensive” myth with real financial logic (17:14) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (18:11) The three pillars of HR within a PEO: compliance, support, and technology (19:55) Using PEOs as a resource for handling sensitive employee situations (22:31) Enhancing employee experience through onboarding and HR tech (23:39) Real example: outdated employee policies and the risk of non-compliance (25:39) Constantly evolving employment laws and the challenge of staying compliant (27:11) Integrating HR systems with quality management and compliance requirements (29:38) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from FacturMFG.com/chips (30:46) Opportunity cost: what business owners could do with time saved (34:04) Hidden costs: liability, lawsuits, and compliance risks (36:20) Expanding into retirement benefits and 401(k) access through PEOs (39:16) Quality of life improvements for owners and leadership teams (41:02) Why you need to have a conversation with Verdant Commercial Capital (41:41) How to evaluate and choose the right PEO provider (44:34) Payroll tax risks and real-world horror stories for small businesses (46:56) Cash flow challenges and how PEOs stabilize payroll-related expenses (49:53) Key criteria: people, processes, and platform when selecting a PEO (53:21) How to connect with Jon to explore Thrive PEO for your business (55:16) Final takeaway: using a PEO to “punch above your weight” in talent and growth Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom line with Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area from Why you need to have a conversation with Connect with Jon Scoggins Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/41036735

Breaking the Ceiling: Systems, Data, and the Truth About Scaling a Machine Shop, Ep #44 04/16/2026

Breaking the Ceiling: Systems, Data, and the Truth About Scaling a Machine Shop, Ep #44 Breaking the Ceiling: Systems, Data, and the Truth About Scaling a Machine Shop, Ep #44 Manufacturing will humble you—no matter how good you get. I was talking with someone recently about how this might be the only industry where you can perform at a world-class level and still lose money on scrap. That’s just the reality we operate in. So the question becomes: how do you build a business that can actually handle that kind of pressure? In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Scott Shortess—someone I’ve known and trusted for years—to talk through what it really takes to break through that next level of growth. We’ve both seen shops get stuck. Flat revenue, constant firefighting, and that feeling that no matter what you do, you’re not gaining ground. I’ve been there myself. For me, one of the biggest shifts came when I realized I couldn’t scale without better systems, processes, and visibility. Scott shares a similar journey—moving from a legacy system that no longer fit the business to something that completely transformed how his shop operates. And I’ve seen that transformation firsthand. It’s not just about better data—it’s about changing how your entire organization thinks and works. We also get into the reality of what’s happening right now with AI, custom-built systems, and the temptation to “just figure it out yourself.” I’ve seen a lot of people go down that road. And while it can work, the bigger question is: is that really the best use of your time as a business owner? At the end of the day, this episode is about clarity. When you have the right systems in place, you stop guessing. You stop reacting. And you start making decisions with confidence. That’s what allows you to grow—and just as importantly, actually enjoy the business you’ve built. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Why manufacturing is one of the hardest industries—and learning to accept failure as part of the game (2:51) Scott’s background, our relationship, and why collaboration matters (even among competitors) (7:19) How ProShop is critical to your ability to operate and scale (12:25) The chaos of operating without visibility—and how systems create accountability (16:22) The “4 P’s”: People, Process, Product, Profit—and why profit can’t be ignored (18:12) Data, KPIs, and what actually matters to customers (quality, delivery, price) (21:25) Head to the DN Solutions Manufacturing Without Limits event (22:27) “Opportunity to cash”: how to think about the flow of a manufacturing business (27:28) You’re never too small to implement an ERP (30:02) Check out the Hennig WorkFlow Automated Pallet Delivery System (30:55) AI, “vibe coding,” and the temptation to build your own systems (40:05) Using data to make better decisions—including when to say “no” (41:20) Culture transformation: how systems change behavior across the business (46:25) Why industry best practices beat homegrown systems (49:44) Manufacturing vs. baseball: embracing imperfection in a high-stakes industry (50:11) Real-world example of speed, planning, and execution under pressure (52:49) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (53:30) The biggest operational shifts: visibility, capacity, and flow (57:48) The ultimate benefit: getting your time back as an owner Resources & People Mentioned Head to the Check out the Grow your top and bottom line with Connect with Scott Shortess Scott Shortess on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/40898080

Trust First, Numbers Second: The Leadership Playbook Manufacturing Shops Are Missing, Ep #43 04/02/2026

Trust First, Numbers Second: The Leadership Playbook Manufacturing Shops Are Missing, Ep #43 What actually makes leadership work in a manufacturing environment? Is it KPIs, lean systems, and dashboards? Or is it something far more human? In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Jason Woodard, COO of Geislinger Corporation and author of Manufacturing Leadership That Works, to unpack the leadership principles that drive real operational performance. While the conversation touches on KPIs, accountability, and operating cadence, the foundation is surprisingly simple: trust. Jason argues that before you can improve numbers, you have to earn credibility with your team through transparency, vulnerability, and consistency. The discussion explores the common traps leaders fall into, especially believing they’re being kind by avoiding difficult conversations. In reality, that avoidance slowly erodes culture, drives away high performers, and lowers organizational standards. Jason shares practical examples of balancing empathy with accountability, and how clarity of expectations is the key to holding teams responsible without becoming the “jerk boss.” From there, the conversation moves into operational discipline. Jason walks through the core KPIs every manufacturing business should track, why safety-quality-delivery-cost is the right order, and how leading indicators often reveal problems long before financials do. He also explains how daily, weekly, and monthly meeting cadence builds alignment and eliminates surprises. This episode blends leadership philosophy with actionable operational structure. Whether you're leading five people or five hundred, the takeaway is clear: strong culture drives strong numbers, and both require intentional leadership. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) The overarching theme leaders should take away from Jason’s book (2:00) Learn more about Jason Woodard and Geislinger Corporation (5:19) An overview of Jason’s book Manufacturing Leadership That Works (10:17) Why trust is the foundation of leadership and business performance (14:58) An investment in ProShop ERP is an investment in your business (16:38) What is the biggest lie leaders tell themselves about performance issues? (21:23) How to balance empathy, grace, and accountability with employees (26:06) Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it) (26:37) Why clear expectations must come before accountability (32:03) What KPIs should manufacturing leaders track across the organization? (36:30) How KPIs should cascade from leadership to the shop floor (40:21) What does an effective daily production meeting look like? (45:14) How weekly pulse meetings and monthly reviews prevent surprises (46:45) Why leaders should “just start” building an operating cadence (48:50) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (49:30) What numbers quietly kill profitability if you don’t track them (52:07) Where to find the book and how teams can use it for development Resources & People Mentioned An investment in is an investment in your business Why we created (and why you should use it) Grow your top and bottom line with Connect with Jason Woodard Buy 10 or more copies for your team and get two 30 minute calls with Jason (reach out on LinkedIn) Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/40688715

CMMC Is Coming — What It Means for Your Shop, Your Costs, and Your Customers, Ep #42 03/19/2026

CMMC Is Coming — What It Means for Your Shop, Your Costs, and Your Customers, Ep #42 CMMC is no longer something manufacturers can afford to ignore. If you’re doing work in the defense supply chain—or even thinking about it—this is quickly becoming a requirement, not a “nice to have.” And what makes it challenging is that it’s not just about passing an audit. It’s about how your entire business handles data, systems, and security. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, we break down what CMMC actually means for manufacturers in practical terms. What does it require? What does it cost? And how do you even begin to approach something that touches everything from your ERP to who can access your building? We walk through the full scope of compliance—from documentation and system requirements to concepts like FedRAMP, POAMs, and shared responsibility across your vendor network. We also dig into the financial side, including how to think about ROI, the real cost and timeline, and why this could become a barrier to entry for some shops. If you’re unsure whether CMMC applies to you—or how serious you need to take it yet—this episode will give you a clear, practical starting point. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) CMMC requirements and what manufacturers need to know (3:30) Why compliance is becoming a real financial consideration (8:52) The process of CMMC: systems, documentation, and process changes (16:51) A discussion about FedRAMP compliance (19:35) User access, building control, and security considerations (22:57) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area at (24:01) Get advice from a Registered Practitioner Organizations (RPOs) (25:01) How ProShop helps you reach CMMC compliance (31:26) The real cost of compliance and how to think about ROI (33:51) POAM: Plan of Actions and Milestones (35:40) CMMC compliance may be a barrier to entry for some shops—but not all (41:47) The vendors you use must also protect CUI (45:40) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA (46:51) Cost and timeline for CMMC compliance (50:04) Do your due diligence on any consultant you may use (51:40) Ask your supplier for a “Shared Responsibility Matrix” (54:46) Why we love SMW Autoblok for workholding (55:30) Who is currently FedRamp compliant? (59:41) The opportunities that will be available if you’re CMMC compliant (1:04:31) Does the math make sense for your shop to become compliant? (1:09:10) Assess your readiness and build systems around it Resources & People Mentioned Get a free report of sales opportunities in your area at Grow your top and bottom line with Why we love for workholding Ask your supplier for a "" Connect with Paul Van Metre ProShop’s Connect with Paul on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/40530190

The Overlooked Expense: How Utility Assessments Can Unlock Hidden Savings, Ep #41 03/05/2026

The Overlooked Expense: How Utility Assessments Can Unlock Hidden Savings, Ep #41 Most of the time on Buy the Numbers, we focus on revenue growth, margin improvement, cash flow strategy, or capital investments. But in this episode, we turn our attention to something many manufacturers rarely question: utility expenses. Electricity. Gas. Water. Sewer. Waste. For most of us, these bills show up, we pay them, and we move on. They’re viewed as fixed costs of doing business. But what if they’re not as fixed as we think? In this episode, I’m joined by Lori Demeyer and Leticia Lawson from CliftonLarsonAllen to talk about utility assessments — what they are, how they work, and where manufacturers may be leaving real money on the table. We discuss exemption certificates, rate classifications, time-of-use billing, meter configurations, and why businesses in certain states may have more opportunity than they realize. Most importantly, we walk through the process and risk profile so owners can decide if it’s worth exploring. If you’ve ever assumed your utility bills are simply “the cost of doing business,” this conversation may change how you think about one of the most overlooked lines on your P&L. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Nearly $1M in utility savings: what’s possible over multiple years (1:10) Introducing Lori Demeyer and Leticia Lawson from CLA (3:55) What a utility assessment actually is and how it works (7:37) Manufacturing exemptions and how they apply to utilities (9:59) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (10:40) Common billing errors, expired exemptions, and missed documentation (13:53) Rate classifications, multiple meters, and usage breakdowns (18:18) Incentives, business riders, and time-of-use rate opportunities (22:39) Get a free report of sales opportunities in your industry from facturmfg.com/chips (23:45) Who should consider a utility review and ideal spend profiles (26:36) State-by-state complexity and why California and the Northeast stand out (31:39) What the review process looks like (30–45 days, minimal client lift) (36:19) What happens if savings are identified and how implementation works (38:41) Real-world savings examples: six-figure and seven-figure impact (42:13) Why utility assessments are typically low-risk and contingency-based (45:00) How ProShop can help you achieve on-time delivery Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom line with Get a free report of sales opportunities in your industry from How can help you achieve on-time delivery Connect with Lori and Leticia Connect with Connect with Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/40298785

Don’t Just File the Return — How Smart Tax Planning Pays Off Over Time, Ep #40 02/12/2026

Don’t Just File the Return — How Smart Tax Planning Pays Off Over Time, Ep #40 Too many manufacturers treat taxes as a once-a-year compliance exercise. You gather the documents, sign the return, write the check, and move on. But the reality is that tax planning is one of the most powerful strategic tools available to business owners, especially in capital-intensive industries like manufacturing. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I’m joined by Dylan Valentyn and Julie Helms from CliftonLarsonAllen to walk through what manufacturers should actually be thinking about as they prepare their 2025 returns and look ahead to 2026. This conversation builds on recent tax law changes and focuses less on loopholes and more on decision-making, timing, and tradeoffs. We talk about accounting method changes, bonus depreciation, R&D tax credits, inventory strategies, and real estate considerations, but always through the lens of practicality. Just because you can take a deduction doesn’t always mean you should. The right answer depends on cash flow, growth plans, ownership structure, and even your long-term exit strategy. If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re leaving money on the table or pulling the wrong levers at the wrong time, this episode is a reminder that the biggest tax wins usually come from planning ahead, asking better questions, and having the right advisors in your corner. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Why tax planning should go beyond annual compliance (0:58) Introducing Dylan Valentyn and Julie Helms from CLA (2:51) Cash vs accrual accounting and when switching methods makes sense (6:39) How Factur can help you build out your sales pipeline (7:47) Using accounting method changes to manage cash flow timing (10:19) What didn’t change in recent tax law and why that matters (11:39) Bonus depreciation returns: what qualifies and key dates to know (13:47) Net operating losses, carryforwards, and practical limits (17:34) Timing deductions vs paying taxes over the life of the business (18:42) Section 174 changes and catching up prior-year R&D costs (21:30) What qualifies as R&D in manufacturing (without lab coats) (25:00) How to achieve on-time delivery with ProShop ERP (26:54) Economic risk, contracts, and who really owns R&D (29:36) Process changes, automation, and integration as R&D opportunities (31:29) Training vs experimentation and where R&D begins and ends (34:44) Inventory strategy considerations, including LIFO timing (37:12 Cost segregation studies and accelerating building depreciation (38:53) Qualified production property and manufacturing-specific benefits (40:22) Why we created Hire MFG Leaders—and how you can use it (40:54) Why proactive CPA relationships matter more than tax software Resources & People Mentioned Get a free report of opportunities in your industry from Use for your next recruit Connect with Dylan & Julie from CLA Connect with Dylan.Valentyn@CLAConnect.com Connect with Julie.Helms@CLAConnect.com Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/40082085

The Cost of Quality — Why Getting It Right Is the Fastest Way to Get Paid, Ep #39 01/29/2026

The Cost of Quality — Why Getting It Right Is the Fastest Way to Get Paid, Ep #39 Quality is often treated like a cost center in manufacturing. Something we have to do to satisfy customers, auditors, or certifications. But in my experience, quality is much more than that. It’s one of the biggest drivers of cash flow, reputation, and long-term profitability in a shop. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Mehul from Ground Control to talk through the real, often hidden, cost of quality. Our conversation starts with a simple but critical idea: parts don’t get paid for unless the paperwork is right. You can machine a perfect part, ship it on time, and still watch payment get delayed weeks or months because an inspection report or FAI is missing or incorrect. That reality reframes quality documentation from “extra work” into a core financial process. We walk through the full value chain of quality, from inspection planning and bubbled prints to in-process checks, scrap, rework, and external escapes. Along the way, we talk about where shops lose the most time and money, how better systems can prevent problems before they happen, and why catching issues internally is always cheaper than letting them reach the customer. This episode is a practical look at quality as prevention, protection, and leverage. If you’ve ever dealt with late payments, chargebacks, rejected paperwork, or rework that quietly eats margin, this conversation will change how you think about the true cost of quality. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) A real-world quality failure and why documentation mistakes are so costly (1:30) Meeting Mehul and the origin story behind Ground Control (5:01) Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (6:12) Why quality documentation is directly tied to getting paid (12:00) Why bubbled prints are the essential first step of quality planning (14:16) Using automation and AI in quality without removing human judgment (15:15) How Factur can help you fill a qualified sales pipeline (16:21) The time and labor cost of manual quality processes (19:07) Prevention vs correction: how better planning reduces scrap and rework (20:31) The importance of in-process checks and smarter inspection strategies (23:26) Why quality education must extend beyond the quality department (24:07) Mark your calendars and come see us at IMTS 2026 (25:07) Reporting quality data with or without a fully integrated QMS (26:54) Internal vs external failures and why external escapes are far more expensive (28:55) Supplier scorecards, penalties, and long-term reputation risk (31:40) How paperwork errors can erase margins and delay cash flow (35:56) Reframing quality as a revenue generator, not just a cost center (39:56) When quality failures become safety, legal, and life-or-death issues (41:48) Quick hits: key KPIs, common myths, and no-cost improvements (44:10) How to connect with Mehul and learn more about Ground Control Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom-line with Get a free report of opportunities in your industry from Mark your calendars and come see us at Connect with Mehul Shah Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/39918395

Owning the Problem: Why Accountability, Communication, and Culture Drive Throughput, Ep #38 01/15/2026

Owning the Problem: Why Accountability, Communication, and Culture Drive Throughput, Ep #38 One of the patterns I keep seeing in manufacturing has nothing to do with machines, software, or technology. It shows up in how teams respond when something goes wrong. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down again with Josh McKain from Throughput Mastery to talk about the habits that actually drive throughput, especially accountability, communication, and culture. Josh has now hosted more than a dozen live conversations with manufacturing owners and leaders, and what stood out to me is how often completely different topics circle back to the same root issue. Whether the discussion starts with cash flow, sales, hiring, or quality, it almost always ends up at communication. The shops that move forward aren’t the ones avoiding hard conversations, they’re the ones willing to own problems and work through them together. We talked through real, practical examples from the shop floor. Scrapped parts, heat treat failures, non-conformances, and rework are going to happen. The difference is how leaders respond. Even when something isn’t technically your fault, it’s still your responsibility to solve if you want to deliver for customers and keep improving. This conversation also pushed into leadership and culture. Delegation matters, but abdication is dangerous. Some things, like cash flow, culture, and accountability, are too important to fully hand off. If you’re trying to build a shop that consistently improves and doesn’t rely on blame as a coping mechanism, this episode will resonate. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:57) Welcoming Josh McKain back to Buy the Numbers (1:41) Josh explains Throughput Mastery and the structure of his leadership groups (4:10) Why small, trusted groups unlock vulnerability and honest discussion (5:43) The most consistent takeaway across episodes: communication (7:51) How trust, not technology, becomes a true sales differentiator (9:10) Showing customers systems, not just machines, to build confidence (11:52) Using data to prove on-time delivery and reliability (12:33) Overcoming manufacturing stereotypes in hiring (14:51) Why authenticity matters more than polished marketing (17:36) Taking responsibility for workforce challenges instead of assigning blame (19:15) Scrap, rework, and why problem-solving is cultural, not procedural (21:22) We detail how Factur can generate new opportunities for your business (23:09) Using non-conformance reports to drive continuous improvement (24:55) Applying AI tools to uncover overlooked process improvements (27:24) Identifying trends through NCR data and KPI reviews (31:18) Why cash flow is too important to fully delegate (32:26) Delegation vs abdication and what leaders must always own (36:24) Can culture be measured? Using simple scoring to track trends (40:39) Combining “gut feel” with turnover and HR data (41:59) How to connect with Josh and participate in Throughput Mastery Resources & People Mentioned Paul Van Metre: Arthur Field: Get a free custom report of opportunities in your industry from Jim Mayer: Mike Payne: Connect with Josh McKain Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/39737550

How a Fourth-Generation Manufacturer Measures Success, Ep #37 01/01/2026

How a Fourth-Generation Manufacturer Measures Success, Ep #37 What changes when you’re not building a business to sell, but building one to hand down? That’s the question that kept coming up for me in this conversation. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sat down with Jack Watson of HFW Industries, a fourth-generation manufacturer whose family has been operating the same business for nearly 80 years. Jack’s story starts with his great-grandfather in 1947, fresh out of World War II, taking a bet on an emerging technology that would eventually become the foundation of HFW’s identity. What struck me wasn’t just the history, but how that long lineage still shows up in the way the business is run today, from capital investment decisions to how risk, debt, and growth are viewed through a generational lens. As someone who runs a business with a very different ownership mindset, I found this conversation especially valuable. We explored how thinking in decades instead of deal cycles changes what numbers matter most. Instead of obsessing over EBITDA multiples or exit value, Jack shared how balance sheet strength, liquidity, employee tenure, and operational durability guide their decisions. We also talked about leadership, tribal knowledge, and the responsibility that comes with stewarding a business that employs people who may spend their entire careers there. Whether you’re in a multi-generation family business or not, there’s a lot to learn from how Jack and his family think about building something that lasts. This episode offers a different perspective on success in manufacturing, one rooted less in transactions and more in continuity, resilience, and long-term stewardship. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Jack introduces HFW Industries and its four-generation legacy (3:05) The origin story: thermal spray technology after World War II (5:53) Family involvement across generations and roles in the business (7:15) We detail how Factur can generate new opportunities for your business (8:22) Family ownership vs founder ownership: different lenses for decisions (9:50) Financial conservatism born from early hardship (12:33) How long-term thinking shapes capital investment decisions (14:23) Real estate ownership and building for generations, not exits (18:04) How to ride out downturns like 2008 and COVID with minimal debt (21:18) Why you need to meet us at the 2026 IMTS Exhibitor Workshop (23:25) The financial metrics that matter most in a family business (25:49) Tracking rework, training costs, and generational skill transfer (27:46) Bottlenecks, utilization, and strategic use of top talent (30:26) Capturing tribal knowledge before experienced employees retire (31:36) Documentation, standards, and low-volume high-mix challenges (32:47) Leadership structure across generations (38:23) Grow your top and bottom-line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (39:00) Decoupling the business from individual family members (40:48) Building a pipeline of leaders who act like owners (42:32) Employee tenure as a point of pride and competitive advantage (44:58) What Jack hopes his great-grandfather would think today Resources & People Mentioned Get a free custom report of opportunities in your industry from Why you need to meet us at the Grow your top and bottom-line with Connect with Jack Watson Connect with Jack on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/39581540

The Inventory Blind Spot: How LIFO Can Unlock Massive Tax Savings, Ep #36 12/19/2025

The Inventory Blind Spot: How LIFO Can Unlock Massive Tax Savings, Ep #36 Inventory is one of the most overlooked levers in manufacturing finance, yet it is often the single largest asset sitting on a company’s balance sheet. In this bonus episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne is joined by inventory accounting experts Erica Parra and Cindy Houser from CLA to unpack why inventory accounting methods deserve far more attention than they typically receive. Most manufacturers default to FIFO or weighted average simply because that is how their ERP is set up. But in periods of inflation, tariffs, and volatile raw material pricing, that default choice can quietly cost companies hundreds of thousands or even millions in unnecessary tax payments. This conversation pulls inventory out of the “once-a-year count” bucket and reframes it as a strategic financial decision. Erica and Cindy break down the fundamentals of inventory valuation and identification, then zero in on LIFO as a powerful but often misunderstood tax deferral strategy. They explain why 2025 represents a rare “strike while the iron’s hot” opportunity due to elevated inflation and tariff pressure, and why LIFO is truly a use-it-or-lose-it election. Using a realistic mock case study, the episode walks through how a manufacturer with $50 million in inventory could unlock nearly $2 million in cash tax savings by adopting LIFO in the right year. The discussion also covers how the analysis is done, what data is required, how long companies must stay on LIFO, and why this is not a DIY exercise. If you think inventory is just what’s sitting on the shelf, this episode will change how you see one of the most powerful numbers in your business. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:43) Introducing Erica Parra and Cindy Houser from CLA (3:00) The two core decisions in inventory accounting: valuation and identification (5:21) FIFO, weighted average, and LIFO explained in practical manufacturing terms (7:23) How raw material inflation and tariffs amplify inventory accounting decisions (8:38) When FIFO or weighted average may still make sense (10:41) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA (12:26) Signs that a manufacturer should evaluate LIFO as a tax strategy (15:30) The short-term and long-term questions every LIFO analysis must answer (17:27) How CLA uses inflation indexes and inventory data to model LIFO benefits (20:18) Why LIFO is tax deferral, not tax avoidance (21:14) Internal vs external inflation indexes and dollar-value LIFO (23:11) What data is required and how invasive the analysis really is (24:33) IMTS Exhibitor Workshop: Why planning matters (26:41) Mock case study showing nearly $2M in potential tax savings (29:47) Required holding period and what happens in deflationary cycles (32:06) Why LIFO is not a do-it-yourself calculation (34:17) Using tax strategy to offset rising compliance costs (38:50) Other major tax strategy changes manufacturers should watch in 2025/2026 (42:52) How to connect with Erica, Cindy, or Mike to explore an inventory assessment (44:58) Use Hire MFG Leaders to hire your next leader Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom line with Register for the Use to hire your next leader Connect with Cindy Houser and Erica Parra Connect with Cindy on Connect with Erica on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/39458340

Innovation at the Speed of Trust: Why Real Progress Happens When People Connect, Ep #35 12/18/2025

Innovation at the Speed of Trust: Why Real Progress Happens When People Connect, Ep #35 Innovation in manufacturing is often framed as a technology problem. Better machines, faster software, smarter automation. But in this episode of Buy the Numbers, the conversation takes a different turn, one that looks past tools and toward the human systems that actually make innovation stick. Mike Payne is joined once again by Al Whatmough, CEO of Toolpath, for a wide-ranging discussion on why innovation truly happens at the speed of communication and why trust, relationships, and shared experiences matter more than ever in an AI-driven world. From AI-powered productivity to the limitations of traditional trade shows, Al challenges conventional thinking about how the manufacturing industry learns, connects, and moves forward. The episode centers on Toolpath’s upcoming Machining Summit on the Summit in Mammoth Mountain, an intentionally unconventional event designed to prioritize conversation over sales pitches and relationships over transactions. By removing the usual trade show noise, Al explains how smaller, effort-required gatherings create deeper connections, better idea exchange, and more meaningful outcomes for shop owners and industry leaders. Along the way, the conversation explores community building, trust in an age of AI, why shared meals and experiences still matter, and how manufacturers can rethink events, partnerships, and collaboration to drive real progress. This episode isn’t about hype. It’s about the numbers behind innovation, and why people remain the most important variable. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:39) Learn about the Machining Summit on the Summit (and why you should go) (7:28) Why you should consider attending the IMTS Exhibitor workshop (9:38) How Toolpath builds community and trust beyond the product (13:06) Why trust becomes more important as AI capabilities increase (14:10) Who the summit is built for and why decision-maker diversity matters (17:34) Selecting panelists who prioritize shared knowledge over gatekeeping (19:54) Why we love the SMW Autoblok catalog (20:35) Balancing shop owners, vendors, and leaders for broader perspective (24:18) Who should attend the Machining Summit on the Summit? (25:52) Creating access for newer and smaller shops through Fresh Tracks (28:04) Why shared experiences, meals, and even plus-ones deepen trust (31:17) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA Resources & People Mentioned Register for the Why you should consider attending the Why we love the Grow your top and bottom line with Connect with Al Whatmough Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/39426950

QDISC Explained: A 5-KPI System for Smarter, More Profitable Manufacturing, Ep #34 12/04/2025

QDISC Explained: A 5-KPI System for Smarter, More Profitable Manufacturing, Ep #34 KPIs can feel like a buzzword—every manufacturer knows they should be tracking them, but few feel confident about where to start or what actually matters. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne sits down once again with Jon Hughes of CLA to unpack the real purpose of KPIs, why they’re so misunderstood, and how data-driven decision-making can completely change the way a shop performs. Mike and Jon dive into the QDISC framework—Quality, Delivery, Inventory, Safety, and Cost—and explore how these five buckets give manufacturers a clear, stable foundation for visibility. But they don’t stop at what to track. They go deeper into how to understand the story behind the metrics, how to trend progress over time, and how to set targets that actually mean something for your business and your customers. Whether it’s measuring scrap and rework, calculating utilization, tightening cost control, or maintaining high on-time delivery, the two leaders discuss how the right KPIs help owners move from reactive firefighting to proactive leadership. They also break down the softer side of metrics: employee engagement, customer satisfaction, and the “why” behind the numbers that every team member needs to understand. Most importantly, Mike and Jon show that KPIs don’t have to be complicated. In fact, the power comes from keeping them simple, actionable, relevant, and directly tied to your goals. If you're ready to elevate your operation by measuring what actually matters, this episode gives you the roadmap to get there. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (1:16) Introducing Jon Hughes and why KPIs matter (2:34) Why business owners struggle to start tracking KPIs (3:51) Learn how to grow your top and bottom line with CLA (5:46) How data reduces pressure and improves decision-making (7:41) KPIs as a living system that changes with your business (8:57) The QDISC framework: Quality, Delivery, Inventory, Safety, Cost (10:47) Safety metrics and examples of what to measure (12:15) Quality metrics: scrap, rework, escapes, and root-cause analysis (14:51) How to set meaningful KPI targets and benchmark well (16:55) Benchmarking challenges and looking at your own historical data (18:09) Trending metrics using percentages versus absolute values (19:44) Using yield and scrap data to price jobs correctly (22:48) Delivery and inventory KPIs, including OTD and cycle counting (24:26) Cost and capacity KPIs: utilization as a profitability lever (25:16) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery (26:15) Mike’s simple utilization KPI: billed vs. paid hours (30:28) Pricing strategy and understanding capacity (31:30) Tracking safety using workers’ comp modifier as a high-level metric (33:18) Why less is more when selecting KPIs (34:32) Financial review vs. weekly KPI review (36:26) Integrating KPIs into 13-week cash flow (37:39) Digging deeper only when KPIs show leakage (40:13) Measuring soft KPIs like customer concerns and employee satisfaction (42:48) Using employee surveys and tracking trends over time (44:00) KPIs as directional tools for improvement (45:12) Teaching employees how their actions affect KPIs (47:23) Using KPIs in all-hands meetings and bonus plans (49:16) Why we created Hire MFG Leaders (and why you should use it) (49:45) Final thoughts, how to connect with Jon, and closing Resources & People Mentioned Connect with Jon Hughes Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/39253110

Cash Flow Power Moves: Pricing, Terms & Tools That Protect Your Business, Ep #33 11/20/2025

Cash Flow Power Moves: Pricing, Terms & Tools That Protect Your Business, Ep #33 In this special crossover episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne joins Josh McCain on The Throughput Show for a fully interactive, live conversation about one of the most misunderstood and mission-critical topics in manufacturing: cash flow. Unlike traditional episodes, this one unfolds in real time with audience questions, open dialogue, and the kind of raw, honest examples operators rarely get to hear outside of private masterminds. Josh kicks off the episode with his hallmark energy and levity—complete with an unexpected “musical” intro for guests Mike, Jon Hughes, and Phil Hanke of CLA—before guiding the conversation into the cash-flow trenches. What follows is an engaging deep dive into the issues manufacturers wrestle with every single day: slow-paying OEMs, inventory pile-ups, quoting mistakes, sneaky cash traps, and how to build the financial visibility that keeps shops alive. With decades of combined experience across shop ownership, accounting, and advisory, Mike, Jon, and Phil break down the real mechanics of cash flow: how it gets tied up, where it silently leaks, and how small changes in terms, quoting structure, deposits, and vendor relationships can immediately strengthen your financial position. Audience comments throughout the episode add even more depth, with owners openly sharing the challenges they face in today’s extended-terms environment. From negotiating deposits to mastering the 13-week cash-flow model, this episode equips manufacturers with practical, battle-tested tools they can implement right away. Whether you're running a newly launched job shop or a mature precision manufacturer, this live format offers clarity, community, and real-world strategies you won’t hear anywhere else. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (2:16) Why you should use Hire MFG Leaders for your next hire (2:44) Mike sets the agenda: focusing on cash flow challenges manufacturers overlook (3:26) Jon and Phil introduce CLA and their work supporting manufacturers (4:40) Overlooked cash-flow issues and common pitfalls (8:10) Real shop example: obsolete inventory discovered during due diligence (9:36) Using deposits and up-front payments to improve the cash cycle (10:02) Why negotiating terms with OEMs is difficult and what shops can control (11:42) Pricing NREs, tooling, and upfront costs correctly (12:29) The accounts-payable side: terms, discounts, and preventative maintenance (13:14) Audience discussion: asking customers to cover material or provide it (15:02) How payment terms redefine what an “ideal customer” looks like (16:13) Customer grading: A/B/C/D system for evaluating cash-flow impact (19:08) Invoice terms, timing, early-payment discounts and hidden costs (20:34) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (21:09) Challenges with customers paying late or using credit cards (23:35) Audience question: when does factoring make sense? (25:29) Breaking down the 2%/10 Net 30 math and annualized cost (27:24) Story of a shop whose discount habits destroyed their cash cycle (30:30) Question on balancing discounts with cash availability (32:25) “Accounts Payable Olympics”: gold, silver, and bronze strategies (38:10) Importance of accurate invoicing, paperwork, and timely receiving (39:51) The 13-week cash-flow tool: How to forecast receivables, payables, payroll, and fixed expenses (42:04) Achieve effective workholding with SMW Autoblok (44:05) Using the model for long-term CapEx and tax-payment planning (46:11) Real example: a $500k swing discovered through variance tracking (47:19) Why shop owners must personally review cash-flow forecasting weekly (49:00) Mike’s closing message: cash flow is the lifeblood of every shop (50:37) Final thanks and episode wrap-up Resources & People Mentioned Connect with Connect with Connect with Why you should use for your next hire Grow your top and bottom line with Achieve effective workholding with Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/39104855

The Section 179 Trap: Why Tax Breaks Shouldn’t Drive Your Equipment Purchases, Ep #32 11/06/2025

The Section 179 Trap: Why Tax Breaks Shouldn’t Drive Your Equipment Purchases, Ep #32 When Section 179 and bonus depreciation come back into play, it’s easy to get swept up in the excitement of “saving on taxes.” Every year around this time, I start hearing from shop owners who are ready to buy a new machine before the end of Q4—sometimes for the right reasons, but often for the wrong ones. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good deduction as much as anyone. But if you wouldn’t buy that equipment without the tax break, you probably shouldn’t buy it because of it. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with my good friend Ty Willis from Verdant Commercial Capital to talk about how to make smarter, data-driven decisions when it comes to equipment purchases. Ty shares a powerful analysis tool that helps manufacturers look beyond tax savings to understand true ROI—factoring in cash flow, breakeven points, and strategic timing. Together, we dig into what it really means to make a strategic equipment investment instead of an emotional one. We also talk about what we’re seeing in the market after attending AMT’s MTForecast. While 2025 hasn’t lived up to some expectations, all signs point to a strong rebound in 2026. That makes this the perfect time to evaluate your CapEx plans, your lending relationships, and your readiness for growth. Ty and I explore how financing can be an influencer, not the decision itself—and why the best purchases are made in alignment with your customers, not just your accountant. If you’ve ever felt the year-end pressure to spend before you think, this conversation will help you pause, run the numbers, and invest with confidence. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (1:17) Welcome to Buy the Numbers — Mike and Ty catch up and set the stage (1:40) Why manufacturers love Section 179—and why it shouldn’t drive your buying decision (2:19) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (2:58) Ty’s equipment purchasing analysis tool and how it partners with firms like CLA (6:15) MTForecast recap: What 2025 taught us and what 2026 could bring (7:43) “Finance is an influencer, not the decision”: Understanding your customer’s demand before you buy (9:33) Pent-up demand and why Q1 2026 could be explosive for U.S. manufacturing (11:11) Banking relationships vs. alternative lending—why both matter (16:34) Verdant Commercial Capital’s tailored approach to manufacturing finance (17:13) Structuring financing: loan-to-value and including setup, tooling, and rigging costs (19:50) Real numbers: Comparing cash flow impact between bank vs. Verdant financing (21:55) The Verdant application and approval process—approvals in 24–48 hours (24:57) Financing for cash-based businesses—building credit history the smart way (28:24) Setting good financial habits early to be “finance ready” when opportunity strikes (30:46) Beyond equipment: Verdant’s acquisition by Axos and expanded capabilities (33:43) How to follow Ty for updates on new financial services (37:07) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery Resources & People Mentioned tailored approach to manufacturing finance Grow your top and bottom line with How can help you achieve on-time delivery Connect with Ty Willis Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/38925310

How Foreign Trade Zones Can Unlock Millions in Working Capital, Ep #31 10/23/2025

How Foreign Trade Zones Can Unlock Millions in Working Capital, Ep #31 When tariffs, trade policy, and cash flow collide, manufacturers are forced to think creatively—or risk being crushed by uncertainty. That’s exactly where Mary Buchzeiger, CEO of Lucerne International and Lucerne Global Solutions, found herself. With skyrocketing tariffs on imported automotive components, Mary realized the solution wasn’t to absorb the hit—it was to rewrite the playbook altogether. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, we dig into how Mary leveraged a little-known financial and logistical strategy: the Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ). By turning Lucerne’s Michigan facility into an FTZ, she found a way to defer duties, optimize cash flow, and even open up an entirely new revenue stream helping other companies do the same. The result? Over $5 million in freed-up working capital on a single program—and more than $500,000 in annual interest savings. Mary walks us through the process of becoming an FTZ, the operational realities, and how manufacturers of all sizes can take advantage of it. From understanding customs audits to calculating real-world ROI, she breaks down the numbers in a way every manufacturing leader can understand. This episode is part strategy, part inspiration—and all about how smart, scrappy thinking can turn financial chaos into competitive advantage. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Mary’s philosophy: “Where there’s chaos, there’s opportunity” (0:54) Mary Buchzeiger’s background that led to founding Lucerne International (3:04) Taking Lucerne global and learning through cycles of automotive highs and lows (4:24) How tariffs pushed her to explore creative cash-flow solutions (6:19) Why Verdant Commercial Capital is a true partner in your corner (6:50) Understanding what a Foreign Trade Zone (FTZ) is (and how Lucern got it) (6:10) How Lucerne became an FTZ and deferred millions in tariffs (9:42) The financial impact: $5 million in freed-up working capital and interest savings (11:52) Turning FTZ operations into a new business opportunity (12:31) How the certification process works — from audit to activation (15:45) Hidden savings: merchandise processing fees and weekly entry summaries (17:46) How Lucerne now helps other manufacturers with warehousing and FTZ setup (20:57) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (21:35) Which companies benefit most: importers with long payment cycles (24:14) Lucerne’s new FTZ savings calculator for manufacturers (26:08) The difference between FTZs, bonded warehouses, and free trade zones (29:14) Other ways FTZs can significantly positively impact your business (30:47) The importance of creative, adaptable thinking in manufacturing (36:35) Small financial adjustments that create massive long-term value (39:26) Check out the SMW Autoblok catalog Resources & People Mentioned Why is a true partner in your corner Grow your top and bottom line with Check out the Connect with Mary Buchzeiger Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/38750510

Building a KPI Culture That Drives Real Improvement on the Shop Floor, Ep #30 10/09/2025

Building a KPI Culture That Drives Real Improvement on the Shop Floor, Ep #30 In this episode of Buy the Numbers, host Mike Payne sits down with continuous improvement coach and Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt Brian Karp to dig into the metrics that matter most for manufacturing leaders. Together, they explore how data can be used not just to measure performance, but to transform culture, drive engagement, and spark meaningful improvement across every department. For more than a decade, Brian has helped manufacturers simplify their approach to measurement—turning overwhelming spreadsheets and endless KPIs into tools that actually guide better decisions. He and Mike talk about where to start when you don’t have a dashboard, how to align KPIs with what customers truly care about, and how to avoid “analysis paralysis” when trying to improve processes. Throughout the conversation, they uncover the real purpose of data collection: empowering teams to learn, not to punish. From establishing baseline metrics to tackling the “yeah, buts” that derail progress, Brian breaks down how to build a measurement mindset rooted in curiosity and continuous improvement. Mike also shares firsthand how his own team at Hill Manufacturing worked with Brian to align their KPIs, trust their systems, and use imperfect data to make better business decisions. It’s a conversation that bridges the gap between engineering precision and human behavior—showing that the key to success isn’t just tracking numbers, but understanding the story behind them. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:49) Brian Karp’s background in manufacturing and continuous improvement (2:00) How Mike met Brian through local grant programs and Lean training (3:12) The importance of connecting KPIs to business goals (4:03) Where to start when you have no KPIs—beginning with quality, delivery, and cost (6:13) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (8:25) Defining metrics that actually reveal performance problems (9:41) Keeping measurement simple—tracking exceptions instead of every instance (10:55) The myth of perfect data (and why “better” beats “perfect” every time) (12:20) Getting buy-in for change: why people resist and how to bring them along (19:32) Avoiding the “yeah, buts” that derail progress (20:32) Measuring even variable processes: everything can be counted (21:55) Check out SMW Autoblok’s catalog to leverage RASRAM (22:50) Drilling deeper into job costing and profitability analysis (24:19) Benchmarking data against real performance, not assumptions (28:31) The danger of changing definitions (consistency matters) (31:04) Bringing KPIs to the shop floor—making performance visible and celebrated (33:53) Manufacturers: Make sure your voice is heard (41:38) Using customer scorecards to define internal KPIs (43:58) Why continuous improvement never ends—and why that’s a good thing (47:46) Using benchmarking tools like Top Shops to gauge industry performance (49:00) How Hill Manufacturing has evolved its KPI culture over eight years (50:28) Hill’s next challenge: driving toward zero defects (54:08) Why you need to meet us at MTForecast Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom line with Check out to leverage RASRAM Why you need to meet us at Connect with Brian Karp Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/38511990

Inside the Numbers: Roger Atkins’ MTForecast 2025 Preview for Small Manufacturers, Ep #29 09/25/2025

Inside the Numbers: Roger Atkins’ MTForecast 2025 Preview for Small Manufacturers, Ep #29 In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Roger Atkins, President of the National Tooling and Machining Association (NTMA), to talk about the real state of U.S. manufacturing as we close out 2025. Representing more than 1,000 small and medium manufacturers nationwide, Roger brings a boots-on-the-ground perspective to the headwinds, opportunities, and trends shaping the industry right now. The conversation goes well beyond statistics to explore the forces behind them. Roger shares his preview of the MTForecast conference and NTMA’s ENGAGE event, pulling back the curtain on survey data straight from job shops across America. From tariffs to labor shortages, election-year uncertainty to international trade shifts, he outlines what’s truly affecting shops and where he sees signs of stability. We also dig into the “new math” of manufacturing leadership — the push to do more with the same workforce, invest in automation and workholding instead of just machines, and partner with builders and integrators to drive productivity. Roger explains why this collaboration between equipment makers and shops is more critical than ever. Finally, we focus on one of Roger’s favorite topics: benchmarking. He shares a powerful story about how one shop used benchmarking against itself to command a premium sale price, underscoring why every shop owner should measure not just against the competition, but also against their own past performance. This episode is a blueprint for owners, operators, and leaders who want to thrive despite uncertainty—and who believe small manufacturers make the world go round. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (1:00) Introducing Roger Atkins and the NTMA’s 1,000-member nationwide network (1:50) Previewing NTMA ENGAGE 2025 and MTForecast 2025 (3:57) Expectations vs. reality in 2025: Flat performance and sector-by-sector differences (5:32) Get 20% off your MTForecast registration with code MAK20 (6:47) Mike’s oil and gas perspective—slow and steady (8:32) Why no shop can depend on one industry anymore (10:22) Tariffs, international pressures, and how uncertainty delays investment decisions (11:28) Why “just make a decision” is Roger’s message to legislators (13:00) Why small manufacturers navigate uncertainty better than anyone (16:20) Forecasting equipment purchases: Bigger interest in workholding and automation (17:22) Grow your top and bottom line with CliftonLarsonAllen (CLA) (18:00) Why MTForecast is where builders and users come together to collaborate (19:22) Doing more with the same workforce: automation, quick-change workholding, and better tooling (22:23) Benchmarking: why every shop should start by measuring against itself (24:40) Benchmarking surveys as a top NTMA member benefit (and a sign of top-shop discipline) (28:14) Roger’s call to action: Business as usual no longer works (29:11) This is not your grandfather’s industry—adapt, invest, and collaborate (31:00) Paul’s Top Shops 2025 invitation and MAK20 discount code Resources & People Mentioned See us at in Detroit (7th-10th of October) AND Grow your top and bottom line with Get 20% off your with code MAK20 Connect with Roger Atkins Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/38341455

From First Questions to First Deals: Navigating Machine Shop Acquisitions, Ep #28 09/11/2025

From First Questions to First Deals: Navigating Machine Shop Acquisitions, Ep #28 When you’re buying a machine shop for the first time, it’s easy to feel like you’re lost in the dark. I’ve been through more than 150 transactions in my career, but I still remember what it was like sitting across from my first seller—wondering if I was asking the right questions or if I was missing something important. That’s why I love conversations like this one. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with Jeff Lee, Operations Manager at Hayer Engineering in Singapore. Jeff reached out after listening to some of our episodes on acquisitions, and the quality of his questions made me realize they weren’t just for him—these are the same questions countless first-time buyers wrestle with but rarely get answered. Jeff shares his story of joining his family’s 30-year-old oil & gas machining business, beginning the search for potential acquisitions in the region, and running into the roadblocks that every buyer faces: how to evaluate opportunities, when to buy assets versus equity, and what really happens when you integrate a new shop. As we work through his list, I pull from my own playbook—what I look for in a shop, how I handle customer concentration, and why ‘people’ issues almost always end up being the biggest surprises. Whether you’re on your first acquisition or your fiftieth, I think you’ll find this conversation valuable, practical, and maybe even a little reassuring. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in… (0:43) Jeff Lee’s background and path to Hayer Engineering (3:00) Why pursuing deals can feel lonely and stressful (5:13) The characteristics I look for in a shop (7:47) Verdant Commercial Capital makes the process smooth & easy (8:25) What my acquisition strategy looks like: diversification and capabilities (11:08) Asset vs. equity deals and what transfers (14:13) Handling customer concentration risks (16:00) Declining revenue: neglect or market forces? (19:25) CapEx spending and owner age as indicators (21:18) Implementing a tech stack post-acquisition (23:53) Level up your workholding with SMW Autoblok (24:34) Onboarding employees and infrastructure quickly (27:01) Centralization vs. decentralization decisions (30:17) Managing customer relationships across shops (31:23) How people issues as the biggest surprises (33:58) Valuation approach and doubling value (39:54) Leveraging your strengths in due diligence (43:49) The future of machining: consolidation and automation (49:51) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA Resources & People Mentioned Episode #24: Episode #80: makes the process smooth & easy Level up your workholding with Grow your top and bottom line with Connect with Jeff Lee Connect on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/38159145

Top Shops Benchmarking: The Numbers That Separate Leaders from the Rest, Ep #27 08/28/2025

Top Shops Benchmarking: The Numbers That Separate Leaders from the Rest, Ep #27 In this episode of Buy the Numbers, Mike Payne sits down with Dave Necessary, Executive Vice President of Products and Markets at Gardner Business Media, to dig into the power of benchmarking and the Top Shops program. For more than a decade, Top Shops has been the definitive survey that shows manufacturers where they stand—highlighting the practices, strategies, and investments that consistently separate the best from everyone else. Dave shares how the survey functions like a business health check-up, providing both an industry-wide benchmarking standards report and a personalized scorecard for participating shops. From capital investment and automation strategies to marketing, HR practices, and efficiency metrics, Top Shops reveals the numbers that matter most to shop owners serious about growth. Mike reflects on his own journey—how filling out that survey after acquiring his first shop in 2018 shaped a five-year plan to transform into a Top Shop. Along the way, he and Dave connect the dots between numbers like revenue per employee, profit margin, and capacity utilization, and the strategies that drive them upward. Whether you’re buying, selling, or scaling a manufacturing business, this conversation underscores why understanding and acting on benchmarking data isn’t optional—it’s essential. And with the upcoming Top Shops Conference in Charlotte this November, you’ll discover why being part of this community can accelerate your shop’s success. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:14) Register for Top Shops and meet us in Charlotte, NC! (1:38) Learn about today’s guest, Dave Necessary (3:34) Hill Manufacturing's experience with the Top Shops benchmarking report (6:27) How the survey works, personalized reports, and five key differentiators (12:02) Why benchmarking matters for any shop size and metrics that drive performance (15:03) Automation and efficiency: horizontals, pallet changers, robots, ERP/MES, lights-out (17:34) Using Top Shops metrics in acquisitions, valuations, and profitability decisions (22:25) HR and marketing differentiators: cross-training, leadership, recruiting, video marketing (27:50) Adding customer value with turnkey services and expanded capabilities (28:46) Why you need to check out the SMW Autoblok catalogue (30:58) Strategic investments: automation upgrades, workholding, and optimizing older machines (39:55) Why you need to embrace the continuous improvement mindset (43:39) Survey timeline, reporting process, and the upcoming Top Shops Conference (46:20) What makes the event unique: peer learning, panels, networking, and fun (49:20) Accessing the Benchmarking Standards Report and Dave’s special offer (52:19) Grow your top and bottom-line with CLA Resources & People Mentioned Register for and meet us in Charlotte, NC! Why you need to check out the catalogue Contact Dave at DaveN@gardnerweb.com to get the Benchmarking Standards Report Grow your top and bottom-line with Connect with Dave Necessary Connect on DaveN@gardnerweb.com Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/37956245

Beyond the Highest Bid: Selling Your Business with Legacy in Mind, Ep #26 08/14/2025

Beyond the Highest Bid: Selling Your Business with Legacy in Mind, Ep #26 Selling a business is rarely just about the numbers—and in this episode of Buy the Numbers, we explore why. Recorded at the CLA Connect Center in Minnesota, Mike Payne and guest co-host Erin Mickels sit down with two sets of owners who have recently gone through the process of selling their companies. From fielding unsolicited offers to choosing between 26 potential buyers, their stories highlight the strategic, emotional, and deeply personal factors that shape a sale. Joel Bauer of Midsota Manufacturing shares his unlikely journey from part-time welder to co-owner of a thriving 132-employee operation. When industry consolidation threatened to change the game, he had to decide whether to expand aggressively or seek the right partner to carry the business forward. Tyler and Ashley Arrell, owners of Perfect Exteriors, walk us through their experience navigating private equity interest, evaluating strategic buyers, and prioritizing their team’s future over the highest payout. Throughout the conversation, Erin provides expert perspective from CLA’s owner transition services team, breaking down how to evaluate offers, run an efficient process, and protect your legacy. The discussion covers everything from preparing your books for sophisticated buyers to why you should always run your business as if you’re planning to sell—even if you aren’t. If you’ve ever wondered how to choose between multiple offers, when to bring in professional advisors, or how to ensure your employees and customers are taken care of after the deal closes, this episode delivers both the technical insights and the human side of the transaction. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:32) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA (1:40) Introducing the guest co-host and today’s panel of sellers (3:56) Joel Bauer’s unconventional path to business ownership and growth (7:37) Tyler and Ashley Arrell’s journey to business ownership (12:35) The role of unsolicited offers in starting the sales process (14:33) How CLA helped assess and improve offers (17:36) Choosing between strategic buyers, private equity, and individuals (18:21) Fit, culture, and legacy versus the top-dollar offer (21:00) Narrowing down dozens of interested buyers (23:00) Why buyer interviews reveal more than just numbers (24:23) Considering internal transitions versus external sales (27:00) Running your business like you’ll sell it—whether you do or not (32:26) Nail the 7 habits of highly effective workholding with SMW Autoblok (33:08) Handling the sale process while keeping the business healthy (38:47) How unexpected events often accelerate sales decisions (40:50) Inside the interview process with potential buyers (44:13) The broker’s role in standing firm during negotiations (49:28) Why legal, tax, and financial specialists matter in M&A deals (50:22) Final advice for owners considering a sale (55:20) Navigating surprises in the buy/sell process (1:05:13) Register for Top Shops and get 20% off with code MAK20 Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom line with Nail the 7 habits of highly effective workholding with Connect with CLA Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/37779620

Legacy, Liquidity, and the Long Game: What Really Happens After the LOI (Part II), Ep #25 07/31/2025

Legacy, Liquidity, and the Long Game: What Really Happens After the LOI (Part II), Ep #25 If you think selling your business is just about getting the highest number, think again. In Part II of my conversation with the all-star team at CLA—Erin Mickels, Mike Britten, and Mike Pohl—we dig into the fine print that can make or break your deal after the handshake. From LOIs to sales price allocations to working capital battles, this is where the real money is won or lost. We start with what seems like a formality—signing the LOI—but as you’ll hear, that’s often the moment your leverage walks out the door. I’ve seen it firsthand: missed tax planning, bad rollovers, vague language that bites back later. This episode is all about what to watch for before you sign and how to avoid rookie mistakes that can cost you millions. Then we dive deep into the deal mechanics that trip up even seasoned sellers—working capital disputes, earnout illusions, and how sales price allocations affect what actually ends up in your pocket. If you’ve never had a deal derailed over working capital, you’re lucky. But most sellers? They’re not ready for that fight—and it’s why deals fall apart at the 11th hour. And once the wire hits your account? That’s not the end—it’s the start of a whole new challenge. What do you actually do with that liquidity? How do you avoid the tax bomb that comes a year later? How does your risk profile shift when you're no longer a builder, but a steward of capital? If you’re serious about getting full value for the company you’ve spent a lifetime building—this episode is essential listening. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:15) Grow your top and bottom-line with CLA (1:54) Structuring employee retention bonuses after a sale (2:55) Why you shouldn’t sign an LOI without legal and tax review (11:02) What buyers scrutinize during financial due diligence (11:45) Working capital and earn-out frameworks (14:18) The challenge of valuing work-in-progress (WIP) in deals (16:51) The importance of post-close working capital adjustments (17:57) How sales price allocation impacts your tax bill (21:44) How ProShop ERP can help you achieve on-time delivery (24:12) Understanding which assets are taxed at ordinary income vs. capital gains (25:40) How earnouts tied to employment can trigger wage tax (27:15) What to do (and not do) after receiving your payout (29:40) How selling changes your risk profile and investment approach (32:08) How to value fully depreciated assets in a business sale (34:40) What determines your company’s EBITDA multiple (36:06) Mike’s “psycho spreadsheet” for modeling post-acquisition performance (38:12) Valuation as both art and science in the lower middle market (42:08) How Qualifying Small Business Stock (QSBS) can help you avoid federal taxes (44:18) Why complex tax strategies require early planning and good advisors (45:44) Stay tuned for Top Shops 2025 registration! Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom-line with How ProShop ERP can help you Connect with CLA Connect with Connect with Connect with Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/37582475

Legacy, Liquidity, and the Long Game: Building Value Before You Sell, Ep #24 07/24/2025

Legacy, Liquidity, and the Long Game: Building Value Before You Sell, Ep #24 If you’ve ever thought, “I’ll sell when I’m ready”—you’re already behind. In this episode of Buy the Numbers, I sit down with three powerhouse advisors from CLA—Erin Mickels (owner transition expert), Mike Britten (tax wizard), and Mike Pohl (wealth whisperer)—to unpack what it really takes to set yourself up for a successful exit from your manufacturing business. We talk through the overlooked planning window between “someday I’ll sell” and “it’s time to list.” Whether you're ten years out or just three, this conversation will help you shift your mindset from just growing revenue to building transferable value. Because a higher top line doesn't always mean a bigger payday—and once you understand the levers that actually impact valuation, you can start pulling them now. We also hit some real talk about what happens after the wire hits your account. What are your personal goals? How much do you actually need to retire, launch your next thing, or leave a legacy? And how can you avoid giving too much to the IRS—or your kids, if that’s your preference? Bottom line: The best exits aren’t lucky. They’re engineered. And if you want to stack the odds in your favor, this episode will show you where to start. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:12) Grow your top and bottom line with CLA (1:20) Meet the guests: CLA’s experts in wealth, tax, and transition (4:03) Start with the end in mind: How much do you really need to walk away? (8:10) Why personal financial clarity should come before valuation (11:37) Bridging the gap between what your business is worth and what you need (14:10) Growing value ≠ growing revenue—what actually drives multiples (15:32) The buyer’s perspective: asset sales, stock sales, and tax surprises (17:44) Market timing matters: Don't let ego miss the window (19:37) Check out Verdant Commercial Capital to get a true partner in your corner (20:17) Why it's normal to feel overwhelmed—and how to build the right team (22:30) The critical three-year window: Your numbers matter more than ever (27:00) From handwritten notes to a valuation nightmare (28:10) Here's why you need quality audited/reviewed financials (31:25) Quality of earnings reports: Not just validation, but storytelling (32:43) Building buyer confidence with customer profiles and payment history (35:24) Don’t ignore risk: succession, estate planning, and key-person exposure (38:10) Tax landmines: personal expenses, nexus issues, and employee bonuses (41:42) Top Shops 2025 preview—join us in Charlotte! Resources & People Mentioned Grow your top and bottom line with Check out to get a true partner in your corner preview—join us in Charlotte! Connect with CLA Connect with Connect with Connect with Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/37518975

The One Big Beautiful Bill: What Manufacturers Need to Know Now, #23 07/17/2025

The One Big Beautiful Bill: What Manufacturers Need to Know Now, #23 When I first heard about the “One Big Beautiful Bill,” I knew we had to break it down for the MakingChips audience. This isn’t just another tax update—it’s a massive, 900-page piece of legislation with real implications for manufacturers like us. Whether you're thinking about buying equipment, expanding your facility, hiring more people, or selling your business down the road, the OBBB touches nearly every part of the decision-making process. That’s why I called up my friends at CLA—Susan Roberts and Steve Combs—two tax pros who spend every day helping manufacturers figure out what’s changing, what’s staying the same, and what you need to do now. In this episode, we sort through what’s “informational” and what’s “actionable”—so you can stop guessing and start planning. We talk about everything from the return of 100% bonus depreciation, to how you can now expense R&D costs again (finally), to smart moves around entity selection and estate planning. There’s even a little salt cap drama in there. If you want to get ahead before year-end—or avoid getting caught off guard—this episode’s for you. Let’s get into it and talk about how this “big, beautiful” bill can work for you… not against you. Segments (0:18) Grow your top and bottom-line with CLA (1:33) Learn more about Susan Roberts and Steve Combs (4:05) What’s “informational” vs. “actionable” in the bill (7:42) Bonus depreciation is back—100% write-offs retroactive to Jan 19, 2025 (10:01) How cost segregation studies unlock more depreciation for recent building purchases (12:20) Why you shouldn’t buy machines just for the deduction (13:45) QBI deduction (20%) made permanent (and what that means) (17:48) Entity selection: Is it time to consider a C Corp? (19:30) R&D can now be fully expensed—unlocking credits, cash flow, and retroactive deductions for everyday shop work (27:37) Why you should listen to Buy the Numbers (30:17) Interest expense deductions get easier for manufacturers in 2025 (32:00) Limitations on capitalizing interest into inventory coming in 2026 (33:21) Individual tax deductions: SALT cap increased from $10K to $40K (with phaseout) (38:02) Why PTET (pass-through entity tax) strategies still matter (40:39) Advanced manufacturing credit for semiconductors increased from 20% to 35% (42:09) Clarifying that buying tax credits is still an option for large C Corps (46:55) Estate exemption increased to $15M and indexed for inflation (48:02) Opportunity Zone deferral extended—now with rolling 10-year plan (50:10) Low-hanging fruit for 2025: R&D recapture, bonus depreciation, cost seg studies (53:40) The risk of unintended consequences without a tax advisor (55:01) Final verdict: Is the One Big Beautiful Bill actually beautiful for manufacturing? (1:01:16) Don’t get burned by recruiters who don’t understand manufacturing Resources mentioned on this episode - Susan.Roberts@CLAConnect.com - Steve.Combs@CLAConnect.com Connect With MakingChips On On On On On /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/37436255

Smart Money Moves: How to Grow Your Shop Without Breaking the Bank, Ep #22 07/10/2025

Smart Money Moves: How to Grow Your Shop Without Breaking the Bank, Ep #22 I’m halfway through the year and, like many of you, I feel as if it’s still February. Orders are steady but not spectacular, and every headline seems designed to keep shop owners awake at night. That’s why I invited my friend and financing partner Ty Willis back on Buy the Numbers—because cautious optimism only works if your cash flow can keep up with your ambitions. Ty funds machine tools every day, from three-spindle startups to $40 million fab shops, so he sees the real score behind the press releases. In this conversation we pull the veil off equipment financing: when to borrow, when to walk away, and how to keep your banker, your line of credit, and your future robots playing nicely together. We also unpack why a “slow-and-steady foundation” beats any shiny new five-axis—unless that five-axis comes with the cash-flow runway to feed it. You’ll hear Ty’s three phases of lending wisdom, my own war stories of growing Hill Manufacturing (including a 24-spindle acquisition we’re closing in two weeks), and a practical playbook for calling your shot six months before you sign a PO. We even run a lightning round on interest rates, Section 179, and whether the latest “no payments for six months” gimmick is really a deal. If you’re tired of financing offers that treat every shop the same—or tired of hearing “rates are too high, maybe next year”—this episode gives you the numbers, questions, and mindset to finance growth without betting the farm. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in... (0:00) Ty’s “run lean first” mantra and why slow & steady wins the race (0:25) Check out Verdant Commercial Capital to gain a partner in your corner (1:30) Ty’s path from tech to ten years in independent equipment finance (4:53) Job shops are softer, DOD/aerospace is humming, and diversification is critical (10:09) Using cash flow as the real growth lever; the 24-spindle acquisition example (11:49) Ty’s three phases of lending maturity (valuing consultative restraint over volume) (17:36) Case study: consolidating eight lenders into one partner to free a CFO’s week (22:33) Automation financing myths—why cobots and AGVs often outlive spindles and deserve funding (26:40) Sign up for updates about Modern Machine Shop’s Top Shops 2025 (27:04) Breathing new life into 15-year-old machines with robots, bar feeders, better workholding (29:52) Pre-qualification and “calling your shot” before IMTS or FABTECH (33:27) South-Dakota-to-Florida move: financing a $500K 5-axis and hidden relocation costs (37:41) Chicago fab/machine shop’s methodical growth with bargain used five-axis machines (41:42) Ty’s four-step engagement playbook: 20-minute call, one-page soft-pull app, roadmap, relationship (44:19) Lightning round: rates, imperfect books, Section 179 reality, deferred-payment traps (55:28) Why you need to listen to the Lights Out podcast Resources & People Mentioned Sign up for updates about Modern Machine Shop’s Why we leverage the expertise of Connect with Ty Willis Check out to gain a partner in your corner Connect with Ty on Connect With Buy the Numbers Follow on Connect with Mike Payne on Subscribe to Buy the Numbers on + Audio Production and Show Notes by - /episode/index/show/dcc033c8-8903-4fb0-9253-67dad5f7e9db/id/37346810

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