Is Attending to Clinician Distress Our Job? Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Release Date: 12/18/2025
GeriPal - A Geriatrics and Palliative Medicine Podcast
Have you had one of those consults in which you’re thinking, huh, sounds like the patient’s goals are clear, it’s really that the clinician consulting us disagrees with those goals? To what extent is it our job as consultants to navigate, manage, or attend to clinician distress? What happens when that clinician distress leads eventually to conflict between the consulting clinician and the palliative care team? Today our guests Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly discuss these issues, including: A recent paper first authored by Yael asking if attending to clinician...
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In this week's podcast, we sit down with Drs. Sarguni Singh, Christian Furman, and Lynn Flint, three authors of the recent The authors dive into the challenges facing seriously ill older adults discharged to Skilled Nursing Facilities (SNFs), where fragmented care transitions, misaligned Medicare policies, and inadequate access to palliative care often result in burdensome hospitalizations and goal-discordant care. The discussion highlights key barriers in Medicare’s SNF and hospice benefits, including the inability to access concurrent hospice and SNF care, and explores...
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I’m going to begin with a wonderful quote from a recent editorial in by our guests Parker Crutchfield & Jason Wasserman. This quote illustrates the tension between the widely held view in bioethics that slow codes are unethical, and the complexity of real world hospital practice: “Decisive moral positions are easy to come by when sitting in the cheap seats of academic journals, but a troubling ambivalence is naturally characteristic of live dilemmas.” Gina Piscitello, our third guest, recently surveyed doctors, nurses and others at 2 academic medical centers about slow codes. ...
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This is the second GeriPal podcast we’ve recorded live using this format, see this to our prior podcast at the Center to Advance Palliative Care (CAPC) meeting in Philadelphia. Also look for our upcoming podcast recorded live from the . Today we join you from beautiful Banff, Alberta, Canada at the National Palliative Care Research Center () annual Kathleen Foley retreat. This meeting was bittersweet. I’ve been fortunate to attend every meeting in one capacity or another since 2006. The made an enormous impact on the growth and capacity for palliative care...
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Eric and I had the pleasure of doing a GeriPal Live! Podcast as the closing keynote for the recent in Philadelphia PA. For this podcast, we invited 3 guests to each select an article of interest to them, and engage in a discussion about the article, including questions from the CAPC attendees in the audience. Our guests chose the following articles (in the order discussed) Matt Gonzales used AI to select an article by Ravi Parikh on , published in JAMA Network Open, finding 44% in the intervention arm received palliative care consults, vs 8% in the control arm. We discussed use of AI...
info_outlineHave you had one of those consults in which you’re thinking, huh, sounds like the patient’s goals are clear, it’s really that the clinician consulting us disagrees with those goals? To what extent is it our job as consultants to navigate, manage, or attend to clinician distress? What happens when that clinician distress leads eventually to conflict between the consulting clinician and the palliative care team?
Today our guests Sara Johnson, Yael Schenker, & Anne Kelly discuss these issues, including:
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A recent paper first authored by Yael asking if attending to clinician distress is our job, published in JPSM. See also the wonderful conversation in the response letters from multidisciplinary providers (e.g. of course that’s our job! And physicians may not be trained in therapy, but many social workers and chaplains are, and certainly psychologists).
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A SPACE pneumonic for addressing clinician conflict developed by Sara Johnson, Anne Kelly and others. They presented this at a recent AAHPM/HPNA meeting. See below for what SPACE stands for.
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We referenced a prior episode on therapeutic presence and creating a holding space with Kerri Brenner and Dani Chammas, and this article by Kerri.
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We talked about the role of the consultant, including this classic paper on consultation etiquette by Diane Meier and Larry Beresford.
Enjoy!
-Alex Smith
SPACE: Navigating Conflict with Colleagues
"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response.” -Viktor E. Frankl
SPACE: Conflict Navigation Toolkit
- Self-awareness: Pause & Notice Before Responding
- What am I feeling? Take own temperature.
- Where am I coming from? What do I need?
- Perspective-Taking: Ask-Tell-Ask
- Where are they coming from? Check your understanding with them.
- “Tell me how you’re thinking about this?”
- “I hear you are concerned about…is that right?”
- Agenda: Yours and theirs, then focus on common ground
- Where are we going together?
- “It seems like we both want…”
- Curiosity: Reframe and explore to understand
- Am I missing anything?
- Why is this kind, smart & hard-working colleague thinking differently than I am?
- “To help me better understand, what is your biggest concern about…?”
- Empathy:
- For others: Empathic statements around the situation & silence
- For self: Your feelings are valid, reflect on it later.
- You will misstep in tense moments: apologize, learn from it. Eating helps.
Authors:
Ethan Silverman MD
University of Pittsburgh
Anne Kelly LCSW
San Francisco VA Health Care System
Jasmine Hudnall DO
Gundersen Health System
Cassie Shumway MS, RN, OCN, CHPN
UW Health Hospitals & Clinics
Andrew O’Donnell RN
University of Wisconsin
Sara K. Johnson MD
University of Wisconsin