VRTAC-QM Manager Minute: Facing the Storm: What’s Keeping VR Leaders Awake at Night

We’re celebrating a major milestone with the return of our very first guests: Kristen Mackey, Director of Arizona Combined, and Natasha Jerde, Director of Minnesota Blind.

As Vocational Rehabilitation leaders navigate rising demands, shifting funding, and major structural change, Kristen and Natasha join us again to reflect on the post-pandemic landscape—and how it’s testing directors like never before.

From managing centralized services to sustaining staffing under fiscal strain, they share the real-world challenges that keep them up at night—and the strategies they’re using to adapt.

With transparency, persistence, and a mission-first mindset, these leaders dive into:

·       Navigating state and federal priorities

·       Responding to workforce volatility

·       Staying connected to data and purpose

Their insights are a must-listen for anyone leading in today’s VR environment. Tune in and be inspired to lead with clarity and resilience.

 

Listen Here

 

Full Transcript:

 

Natasha: Our program income is significantly dropping. The inflation, the cost of services. We've had four and a half and 5.5% salary increases with no additional state appropriations. So all of these things together keep me up every single night.

 

Kristen: We want job placements, we want employment, we want independence. If somebody's saying increase your job placements, fine, we can do that. It's how do we then take what they're giving us and make it not be a distraction, and we can mold to the thing that they want, but still do it at the base level.

 

{Music}

^{Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.}

 

Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Kristen Mackey, director of Arizona Combined, and Natasha Jurdi, director of Minnesota Blinds. So how are things going in Minnesota, Natasha?

 

Natasha: I think the Minnesota word for today is going to be interesting. It's interesting. How about I leave it at that and I'll talk a little bit more as we dive into the questions.

 

Carol: Awesome. That is interesting. I want to know about that. How about you Kristen? How's it going in Arizona?

 

Kristen: You know what? I think I might steal Natasha's word. There's so much happening. We're trying to keep managing and keep abreast of all of the changes that come out on the news and everywhere, trying to keep centered and just keep doing what we do to get the work done. It's been a lot of fun.

 

Carol: Well, I couldn't think of two better people to bring on because this is super exciting. This is actually our 50th episode of The Manager Minute, and I couldn't think of a better way to celebrate the milestone than by bringing back my two incredible guests from episode number one in May four years ago. It's so crazy. And back then I just laughed. We were diving into the world of post-pandemic VR. What's it gonna look like? How are we going to navigate all these changes? You guys were working on things like electronic signatures and how you equipped your staff, you know, to work remotely and all of that. So a lot has changed since those early days, and I'm excited to catch up with you both to see how far that you've all come. So just reflecting back to my time as a director, I remember many a sleepless night and Natasha can attest to that. I remember coming to a meeting like, I don't sleep at night and I keep a pad of paper by my bed. And it was so funny. I heard a director tell me they did the same thing.

This was a month or so ago. They were like, you know, I keep this pad of paper by my bed because, you know, we were worried about so many things. There was WIOA implementation back then, and we had a less than stellar monitoring report and a financial picture that was super tough and it just wasn't very pretty. And so I kept that notepad because in the middle of the night was always my best thinking I'd wake up, I'm like, oh, I gotta write this down. And so I can remember in the morning. So I know now, four years later, from talking to you all last on the podcast, the pendulum has certainly swung in a new direction, and I'm really eager to see how things have evolved for the both of you. You know, like what's changed, what's stayed the same, and what lessons have you learned? So let's dive in. So, Natasha, will you kick us off and just give our listeners a little snapshot about yourself and the agency that you lead?

 

Natasha: Sure. So I have worked at State services for the blind since I was a baby intern 2008. I have been a deaf blind counselor, a supervisor, the director of our policy and program administration, and I became the director in August 2019. Our agency, we have about 140 staff across the state. We have a Voc Rehab program, an older blind program, our Randolph-sheppard program. But we also have a communication center where we do braille audio transcription and have a radio reading service. So we have a little bit of everything at State Services for the blind. We've grown a bit since 2019. Yeah, there's a lot of fun.

 

Carol: It is a lot of fun. Blind agencies are always near and dear to my heart. And since I came from Minnesota blind, Natasha knows that I just love that whole variety and all of the work. It's so fun. Kristen, how about you give our listeners a little snapshot about yourself and the agency that you lead?

 

Kristen: Sure. Similar to Natasha, I started as a VR counselor in the field transition. That was my first job in first entrance into VR. I moved into policy manager policy and then became the director of the Arizona Combined Unit in 2016. Arizona is combined and we are also under a safety net agency. All of the VR, IL OIB, BEP is in a division. That division is in a department. So our DSA is really rather large and we are kind of shuffled 3 or 4 deep down. So we have enterprise services, shared services, which makes things a little bit more difficult to manage than it was when I started the job, when we didn't have some of those other items. So it's been a learning lesson and trying to figure out how do we get done what we need to get done with all these people involved now.

 

Carol: Yeah, your structure makes me nuts. I'm just saying, full disclosure, but having gone on site with you and your team several times, I'm like, what? You have to always explain. We had DIRs and we have this other thing and all these different levels. I'm like, oh my Lord, I just don't even know how you do it. So I know there's been a lot of big changes since we spoke last, so I'm going to kick it to you first. Natasha, what are some of the biggest changes you've seen in your program since we last spoke?

 

Natasha: I was actually talking to one of my outreach coordinators, Lisa Larges, and she's like, I think you brought some bad juju because the timing when I started and then everything that happened since I started has just been wild. So since we last met, I've experienced a global pandemic, a civil rights movement that essentially started literally down the street and around the corner from our headquarters. A roller coaster ride of funding at both the federal and state level. We went from having too much to now we don't have enough. We have a new federal administration with very different priorities than we have seen before. We have settled into this new hybrid work, which isn't new anymore. It's kind of our new normal. It's just been, I think you name it, it has changed or it's different or it feels different or it looks different. I think the biggest question right now that we're all faced with is, in light of all of these changes and challenges and opportunities, how do we maintain the integrity of the program, continue to provide high quality services that get people into competitive careers and retain the staff that we have worked so hard to get. While these past few years that's been a focus of a lot of our agencies is how do we recruit? And now with everything happening, is all of that recruitment efforts going to go to waste?

 

Carol: You know what's kind of funny when you talk about that? Because I look back to when I started at SSB, you know, and so in 2013 I become director. You go at the very end of the year, I was the interim and then made permanent in 14. And you just go, okay, I thought I brought bad juju with me to because WIOA went into play and then we had all this wacky stuff going on. We owed all this money for the case management system. So now, you know, just hearing you, it's like, well, maybe it's just the cycle of the program. Like there is no spot in time where everything is ever just copacetic and all smooth sailing. I think it just continues on.

 

Kristen: I think that I really feel like that's so good to remember because I think you can in this position, you can take a lot of things like, oh my gosh, am I not doing this right? What skills don't I have? How am I not doing this, that or the other. And it just is a constant. Like it just changes constant. And you have to constantly readjust your focus and your priorities and your strategy. And so it's helpful to remember that our environment is constantly changing at state and federal level. And we just have to be able to manage and navigate and not beat ourselves up over it.

 

Carol: Oh, that's a super good point. Natasha's going to laugh at this, but I'm actually going to hold up so our listeners won't see it. But I still have my Strengths Finder. So we used to always do strengths Finder at SSB. I still have my top five strengths. And staff used to ask me one of them is adaptability. So my fifth strength was adaptability because people would be like, how can you just roll with the flow? Like you need to just tell like Central Office, we're not going to do that thing that they want for the legislative session. And I'd be like, okay, we're going to pick our battles. That is not the battle we're going to pick right now. We're going to answer the question they need, because the sooner you do that, you get that off your back and then you get back to your business and do your things. And so for me, it's easier because in me is adaptability. I've always been able to kind of go with the flow, whether administration changes or, you know, any of that, where that is more difficult for other people when you want things to be very set and it's hard for you to pivot and make that move. So, Kristen, what are some of the biggest changes you've seen in your program in the last four years?

 

Kristen: Wow. Well, as I indicated, the state was kind of in that move and shift to centralized services, you know, some of those shared service models. So, you know, it started with our training department and, you know, but we got to keep our policy and we got to keep our contracts and procurement. And the next thing you know, like air moves out and then, oh, we're going to move out all of your facilities management. And so slowly, piece by piece, the staff that you had working with. You have been now pulled to a different reporting structure and a different requirements to do their job. And so when, you know, we used to have a staff of like 500 people that were fully dedicated on board, directly connected with me, I had direct relationships with them. I was able to really work with them. And over the last five years, I've seen that direct connection and relationship with people fade out because those folks are no longer in those positions. They've graduated or moved to other things. They didn't stay within the agency. So, you know, within our VR program, IOB program, BEP, those program staff super dedicated and want to really fulfill the mission of the work in serving individuals with disabilities. And then we have all of our shared service team dedicated to their job to don't necessarily have the same focus on the mission and the outcome of serving individuals with disabilities. It's been very difficult to try to figure out how to play nice with them, because they got to do stuff for you, right? I need you to manage my budgets. I need you to manage my contract. But I also, you know, don't quite like the way you're doing it or you're not doing it fast enough or you're not following my vision for how that would work. So it's just been a real challenge to see how to grow and manage the different structures that are in play now.

 

Carol: I think you hit the nail on the head on that with that centralization, because it's happening across the country. I mean, we see it everywhere. Every director like just struggling as your people move out from under you, whether it's the IT, the HR, the whoever you had. And now they're centralized, which Congress allows. It was written in the rehab Act, like you can structure that way. But they lose that connection to the mission and what you're trying to do. So when you're doing that work sort of in isolation of what's the end game and how you impact, you know, the staff person having their computer so they can do the work with the customer. You don't see that urgency in it. So it's like, yeah, so we get to you in two weeks, you know, really need your computer or whatever. It's just hard. It makes the job so much harder. So I know not only those changes have happened, the financial landscape is shifting drastically for the VR program. How has this impacted your ability to serve individuals? And Kristen, I'll send it your way first.

 

Kristen: We've been fortunate in that Arizona with the formula grant. You know, we still receive a little increases every year. So the not getting the cost of living this last year was not as impactful as it had been to some other agencies. So I do, you know, knock on wood for that a bit. Now if that continues we're going to have another, you know, constantly evolving story there. We have had to take a look at for our cases. How do we spend more money faster. And that's been again the challenge of working with shared service opportunities is, well, they don't have capacity to put these contracts in place that I need in order to be able to spend the money that we have, right? We have been successful in keeping it in the VR bucket, but now we need to spend it on our consumers and our clients. But I need a contract to do that and don't have the resources or the capacity from that team to be able to put that out the door. So it's super challenging to know that you're sitting on money that you could spend and do a lot of good things with, but there's then that external factor of not having the capacity to put all of that together to get that money spent.

 

Carol: So you're in actually a pretty lucky position. You know, other people listening to this podcast are going, What? Kristen Mackey, you've got all this, you've got all this money. Because almost all the calls I get on a daily basis with my list of people all going on the order of selection, I keep a little sticky note, you know, and everybody calling and just frantic. They are literally like tapped out. There is no money, but yet you're trying to spend your money and you don't have the resources to really help you get some of the plans in place.

 

Kristen: It is challenging, but I feel fortunate that I'm challenged on that end of the spectrum versus the end, where there's not enough money or capacity or staff resources. One of the other pieces, too, is, you know, in this current landscape, budget wise, can't bring on as many people as we would like to, you know. Can't do all of the support services that we or support staff that we would like to. So downsizing your footprint, right? All of that, those are our major expenditures. And we're asked to shrink that. It creates a really kind of a nightmare for projection and and budgets all of that.

 

Carol: Oh, 100%. How about you, Natasha? How's the finances looking at SSB?

 

Natasha: It's getting tight. It's getting tight. We were on the other side of that a few years ago. We had more money than we could spend, and we used that as an opportunity to do things that we've always wanted to do or needed to do, and we never had the funding to do it, but we always did things that we could course correct quickly on them or aren't forever. So we didn't make a lot of permanent decisions with that money because the writing was on the wall. We knew that once the pandemic shifted, we were going to see an influx in applications. Inflation was already on the wall that prices were increasing. So we made some, I think, pretty strategic and smart decisions with the money we had and how we spent it. However, it's still tight because we are getting an increase in applications. The cost of services is increasing. We ended our order of selection September 2021. I have no desire to go back there for me. I don't even want to speak it out loud. I know it's an option. I know I may need to use it one day. I can't say never, but I don't think that is the best direction for us because people need our services just as much as before, if not more. And for individuals who are blind or low vision or deaf blind, there really aren't any comparable options available, at least in Minnesota. And we're here for a very specific reason. And so I have always said it's my responsibility to ensure that we can continue doing what we are here for. That may mean that services are going to take a little bit longer to get started.

We are increasing our supervisory oversight. We have a ton of financial reports, which I'll talk about in another question that have helped us get ahead of sudden spikes that we're seeing so we can do those course corrections. This also may mean that we're not backfilling or we're freezing some of those positions for a little bit that aren't essential. I'm using the term we're going to freeze, flick or fill, and every position that's our litmus test will freeze it, meaning we don't need it right now. It's not essential for service delivery. We'll revisit this.

Flick means you know what? This position really isn't serving its purpose anymore. Let's figure out a different way of doing the work or fill. And we've prioritized counselors and VR techs and anyone doing direct service provision. But it's also all of this is going to force us and continues to force us to find new ways of doing things, which I don't think is a bad thing. One of the goals I've put in place this year is that all of the extra noise. You know, that can happen when you're working in a state government agency. Things that pretty much distract you from what you're supposed to be doing. My goal is we don't do those things if it doesn't stem back to our mission and actually help people get jobs or live independently, we're not going to do it. And I told that to the commissioner's office. You can ask me all day long to do all of this extra stuff, but it's not serving a purpose for us. I'm sorry. I'm not going to do it. And they've been okay with it so far.

 

Carol: That's awesome. Until you get a legislative request that they need you to answer in ten minutes and analyze.

 

Natasha: Yeah, I can't say no to those. Yeah, all these extra work groups and task forces and let's do this and that. We got other things we gotta do.

 

Carol: So what's the biggest thing, Natasha, that's keeping you up at night right now? Because I know there's always something, something is niggling somewhere. What would you say is the biggest thing keeping you up at night?

 

Natasha: Well, I have a few, but the biggest one is that. So we're not a combined agency. We have a separate general agency and that separate general agency is an incredibly tight budgetary situation. I would go so far as to say they're in a budgetary crisis, and because match maintenance of effort and carry forward determinations are at the state level, not agency, it is very possible that their constraints will impact our funding. And specifically I am very worried are Carryforward is in jeopardy. And we had a scare where we had a very high chance of losing all of our carryforward this last end of the federal fiscal year. Because of those budgetary constraints, the general agency is doing workforce reductions and doing layoffs, and they have the same type of staff classifications that we do. And we are a union state, which means bumping, which means my staff are in jeopardy. And so I'm up every night between 2 and 3 a.m. thinking of ways that we can help in any way possible. Our program income is significantly dropping. I think I've heard other states experience something similar. The inflation, the cost of services. We've had four and a half and 5.5% salary increases with no additional state appropriations. So all of these things together keep me up every single night trying to figure out how do we sustain.

 

Carol: Now they're going to keep me up at night, too, because of course, I worry about you all. And of course, I really worry about SSB. So I always hold that near and dear to my heart. But oh man, that is a lot. But I know you instituted some things, though, between you and the general agency, just to make sure you guys were communicating better about those financial reports and such, didn't you? Like, what did you do?

 

Natasha: We have an amazing relationship. We review our federal reports together. I sat closely with the VA's fiscal team, walking through what I know about the fiscal processes, the federal regulations. That's something that Carol taught me very well. I understand it quite well. So we worked hand in hand. We've been doing that since October.

 

Carol: That's good. Good stuff. How about you, Kristen? What's keeping you up at night?

 

Kristen: We had a recent monitoring that monitoring. We get through it, Right? And, you know, you haven't always have an inkling of things that need to be fixed and things that we should address, right? And sometimes those get shuffled because priority is whatever. So we had the monitoring very much highlighted certain areas that we need to address and take care of. And one of those was our fiscal management and continue as managed outside of my direct staff and even two and three layers above me. So it's one of those concerns of like, I wonder what's going to happen next. I never quite know what the fiscal situation is going to be. Emails flying around, you know, I'll get an email at the end of the day and it's I need more information. What is this about? How did you come to this conclusion? Who was involved in making this decision? It's kind of just a plethora of items that, you know, any given night, and mine is usually between 3 and 4. Like, oh, wake up and go like, oh, shoot, that sticky note fell off the roster somewhere. I need to go and send that email or this project. We started it, but now it's like kind of hanging, languishing. I need to poke somebody about getting that back on the roll again. I don't know that it's one specific thing, but it's just kind of just the size of the job is not a 40 hour a week job. It is a all encompassing. I dream about work. I it wakes me up at night, you know.

 

Carol: Well, my newest trick with not having my notepad beside my bed, but I actually been waking up more just because I've had so many more phone calls. Things have been really crazy lately with our fiscal team and people just reaching out. And so maybe end of the day or, you know, people's time change, you could get a call from Guam. You know, it's a way different time. So people are calling all the time. So now at night when I wake up, I text myself, you know, a note like, just so I remember, like remember to get back to so and so tomorrow. So now I just am picking up my phone. I don't have the pad there anymore, but I had two messages from last night for today that I didn't want to forget.

 

Kristen: I sent texts because I don't put my work phone by my side, but I have my personal. So my work cell phone is embedded in my personal and I just send text to myself.

 

Carol: Yeah, my work and my personal are all together, so it makes it a little challenging.

So I know we're going through an administration change on the federal level right now. And a lot of state administration, you know, that changes every four years to with governors, sometimes you keep a governor twice in a row, but a lot of times not. And it will bring these shifts in priorities and just all of this change. How do you guys navigate and adapt to those changes, whether it's on the state level or federal level, when you're approaching your work? And I'm going to kick that to you, Natasha, first.

 

Natasha: I think the biggest thing, at least for us, has been a lot of communication and transparency, not only with our staff, but our customers, our community partners and stakeholders in the face of unknowns. People look to steadiness and information even if you don't have a lot to share. The absence of information often speaks very loudly, and people will fill in the blanks, sometimes not in a way you want them to. So we are communicating frequently, even if we don't have information. People look to me, am I panicked or am I calm? And know if I am panicked, it will not be good. People feed off of that and so I am always calm. I am always just. I can't guarantee or promise anything, but I can say we're in this together and I remind everyone why we're here. We have a mission. As Carol knows, the mission is on the wall. We look at it frequently and nothing has changed. No matter what happens federally or at the state level, that mission has not changed. We have proved that during a global pandemic. VR agencies are adaptable, creative for us in Minnesota, SSB was one of the first agencies, if not the first, allowed to go back into people's homes and provide services. That's because we know how to do things quickly and strategically to respond to whatever comes our way. We don't wait for people to tell us what to do or how to do it. We take charge and we lead the way. And I feel that is how VR is across the country. We tend to be leaders in faces of crisis and urgency. We tend to step up when others don't.

 

Carol: Yeah, good advice. That's all good advice. Kristen, how about you? Because you've had major shifts. I mean, you've already alluded to this, this whole like take away your people. And that's been all shifts in the structure within the state government and such. You know we've got the federal different priorities. So how do you navigate and adapt to those changes in your work and for yourself, even, like how are you taking care of yourself through all this.

 

Kristen: Being able to adapt the work that we do? Natasha says that we have a mission. We have a very clear outcome that we have whatever side, whoever's telling you what they want to do or how they want to do it. You need to be able to mold what that strategy looks like so you can speak to it. And I always talk about it. It's a spin. I don't like the terminology of spinning, you know, for the sake of trying to hoodwink anybody or not be transparent. But at the end of the day, we want job placements, we want employment, we want independence. So if somebody's saying increase your job placements, fine, that we can do that. It's how do we then take what they're giving us and make it not be a distraction and we can mold, you know, whatever we're measuring to the thing that they want, but still do what we are doing at the base level. And so I do feel like that's really part of our job as leaders is to and Natasha spoke to this earlier is take that noise and then see how we can like get it to stop with us and push it back in a way that still supports the work we're doing, whatever comes to us in terms of work group where you need to measure this, or we want some kind of change in X, Y, or Z. Okay. I can give you this back that will meet your needs. And it doesn't change or distract from what I'm doing in our department or in our programs. I think it's just being flexible in your thinking, being able to not have to have a certain way of approaching things, because you got to understand what that landscape is. You got to speak the words that they're speaking in order to get them to listen to you and kind of play with you so that we can all get to the same end goal.

 

Carol: One thing I've seen from you, Kristen, just working with you these past years in my TA capacity is I'm like, I love your persistence because you've had to navigate this really tough, internal, weird structure. It just is weird. And you are super persistent in messaging. Okay. Like you send a message to this person, oh, I'm not the person. Okay, then who is the person? Okay, I'm going to go to this person and you will not let it go till you find till the end the little trail of crumbs you get to and you're like, all right, I'm finally getting to the person because I have to get this thing answered. Some people just give up. They're like, oh, I don't know. And then staff ask and you're like, well, I don't know. We don't know who's doing what. Oh not you, you. You don't let that happen.

 

Kristen: That is one piece of advice I give to people when they come on. This is a state government, federal government, there are all sorts of red tape, barriers, hoops. Everything will get in your way if you let it. You're going to have to be persistent. Don't get jaded with it. Don't give up. Just know that you're going to have to be persistent with getting to the thing that you want to get done.

 

Carol: So switching a little bit. There's a lot of different structures in hiring VR agency leaders. I mean, you can be a political appointee. You can be more of a career professional where maybe you have some protections, maybe it's not a full blown union, but you got something. And we've had 14 new directors in the last less than ten months. Again, 14 new directors in VR. You know, people don't always realize like, how does that and each of you represents a different bucket here. How does that distinction, whether you're a political appointee or you have a little more protection influence your agency. Kind of how you approach the operations and your decision making. And I'll ask you first, Natasha.

 

Natasha: I am a career professional. I'm the highest level you can go before you start hitting the politically appointed positions. So that means I get the privilege of bringing some stability to the agency. Granted, that doesn't mean I can't get fired or laid off, but I am not politically appointed. So when the administration changes, I don't change with it. So that means staff can expect some consistency, and they don't have to wonder who's going to be coming in now to shake things up with their own ideas and views. They know what my priorities and goals are. They know how I work and they know what to expect. And so I have the luxury of time to create a culture that will sustain anything that comes our way. I have the time to develop that succession plan, offer professional development and mentorship opportunities. But when I was thinking of this, I can see the value of Having fresh new faces, coming in with different perspectives and experiences, and that they may have a better idea for how we do things. You know, we talk about people who have been in the position for 30, 40 years. Is there some value to having that new life coming into an agency? So I recognize that being a career professional could also be a limitation of mine, which means that I really need to surround myself with people who think differently from me, and I can't get stagnant.

 

Carol: Yeah, that's a really good point. Although there are very few 30 year or 40 year career leaders in the VR program anymore, I think we got Diane Delmas out in Vermont and Greg Trapp, those are the two I always think of. Otherwise, boy, people have been coming and going pretty fast, but that is good advice because you can get a little stuck.

Now, Kristen, you're on the other end of the spectrum because you are a political appointee.

 

Kristen: I am not a political appointee, but I am an at will employee.

 

Carol: Oh, you're an at will though.

 

Kristen: Yeah,.

 

Carol: So it's very similar. So you're an at will person, does that impact you at all, like in decision making or as you go about doing your job?

 

Kristen: Well, certainly. You think, you know, is this decision going to make me the scapegoat for something that goes south, right? So, you know, it does impact my thinking. I don't let it impact whether it's right or wrong. To do that is just my base. You know, you just have to have that gut kind of commitment to. This is what I said. It's the truth. I don't have any qualms about how I do the work or the transparency that I have in the work that I do. So keeping it all above board, hope that that serves you in the end. Natasha, you had a very positive outlook on new people coming in. In my tenure, I've experienced a lot of changes in different people at different levels coming in and not having any idea about the rehabilitation programs that we run. And so it is a kind of a continuing education of individuals who are coming and going to have them see the value of the programs and the way that they need to operate.

 

Carol: Yeah, I appreciate that. So let's look a little bit at kind of leveraging both of you like this leveraging your data. And we're kind of skipping around a little bit here. But how do you guys like to leverage data to inform your financial and programmatic decisions? Now remember we've got a lot of new directors. We have listeners out there that are they don't know we I get this question all the time. You know, we talk about data informed decision making. People are like, yeah, we talk about it, but what does that mean? And how do you really do it in practicality? So Kristen, what would you say do you have like an example or how do you like to best leverage data when you're looking at making decisions, whether programmatically or financially?

 

Kristen: Just because I have a little bit more programmatic data that I have access to and ability to manipulate, we really look at that in terms of, you know, when we're setting our annual strategic goals, what is our five year goal? Take a look at what have the last three years look like. You know what the percentage of increase or decrease is? How are we adjusting those things? Use the data to understand where are the gaps, what's not working, and something we expected the needle to move and it didn't. What's not working in that process. And so you know, what lever do we pull to say this is going to be quote unquote a countermeasure for that thing, and then measure that data over the next three, six months. And if there's a change, then we can kind of understand then did that work or didn't it work? I think far too often in our workforce we say, well, this is a problem, but we don't really have any data around it. Should we gather a ton of data for the program to being able to use that data to help inform what decisions or what changes to processes should we be making and how should we make those. And then we can track it to see did it make a difference or what difference did it make? And is it something we should replicate? Is it something we should pull back. So I really like to use our data from our program, you know, participant program data to inform our strategy on what we're going to be doing in the next 1 to 5 years.

 

Carol: I know before you have presented at CSAVR and showed like you had some really cool ways you were able to look at data and you did a lot of it by your region so you could start narrowing in, because you can have this tendency to go, oh, you look at the data broadly and then you're like, oh, we must have this problem everywhere. Well, you realized you had regions, you know, in your state you're like, well, why am I like spanking everybody? What we write, we need to focus over here.

 

Kristen: Yeah, we have those metrics. And it's a metric per counselor, per rehab tech, per purchasing specialist. That unit of counselors rolls up to the supervisor. The supervisor rolls up to the program manager. So I can drill down from a state level perspective to a region perspective. Is it a supervisor office problem? Is it a person problem? And that has really helped us understand. Also, where do we need to direct the energies and efforts in terms of making changes.

 

Carol: Yeah, I really like that. That was really good stuff. How about you, Natasha? What are you doing with leveraging data? Because I know that's in your wheelhouse, too.

 

Natasha: We actually hired within, like, the last year or so, a data analyst who is skilled in data visualization and being able to take a bunch of raw numbers and tell a story. And we have been working with her to develop not only the programmatic data, which we now have a ton of that we can look at, but also our fiscal forecasting and what's happening on a budgetary level. It is because of those reports which I am getting weekly, monthly and quarterly reports, depending on the nature that we were able to suddenly see this huge, unexpected spike in case services authorizations. Within just a month of it happening, we were able to drill in. What exactly is going on? What are the bucket items that are the red flags we were able to look at by staff member by region, and we found that our interpreters have gone up over 300%, which then led us down to, okay, what's going on with that? What's the story behind the data? We also are every week meeting as a fiscal team. So the three fiscal staff that I have and myself, we meet every single week. I am intimately involved in our federal reporting. I look at every single report that they put together before we submit our 17. We walk through it. I know where we're at with match. I know where we're at with maintenance of effort. I know exactly where our 15% set aside is, and I can tell you that every single month how we're doing and what issues we're going to be facing. And that's because we have the data. If a director never looks at data and doesn't know what's happening in their programs, they're not going to be able to spot issues. You have to know whether you're doing good or you're not doing good. You need to be able to catch those things.

 

Carol: Yeah. And unfortunately, you have many colleagues across the country. And I will come in and they're being told by like the DSA fiscal staff, hey, don't worry about it. We got it. And so there have been directors of programs of 150 plus million dollars, have never seen a budget report. Zero idea. So literally anything they want to do. Hey, can we send a staff to training? They're asking this group of fiscal people sitting over here because they don't even know what's in the budget. It is the most insane thing I've ever seen. So you really hit the nail on the head. Like, you have to have access and it is required in the law, in the act, in setting up the agency org structure, you have the sole responsibility over the allocation and expenditure of your funds. And how can you have that sole responsibility and not have any data that goes with it? So I preach.

Natasha: I will say, data is if you have a legislative ask and you are requesting more funding, the stories are important, but they also want to see the data behind it.

 

Carol: 100%. And it can't be data that's changing by the day. Oops, we forgot this because I've seen people get burned on that as well. And then the legislators are going, okay, well, this data now is suspect, and I think they need a legislative audit report and review because what are they doing over there?

 

Kristen: From a data reporting perspective, like having historical data to the same reports they pull, they cannot keep changing the reports that you're changing the methodology of that. That was a lesson learned for us is we had to understand what data we were pulling, how were we calculating the numbers we were calculating. And now we have data since 2018, and we can tell when we've made any changes. And so then we can see what are our trends. What does that look like. How can we use that to help us predict in the future. So that was a lesson learned for me. We came in and it wasn't much in terms of data. We built some reports and then it was like, oh, but now we need to kind of be able to track, oh, well, this thing happened. And that's why maybe that spiked or dipped or we did this thing and here's the change we saw. So we were able to speak to that year over year as well.

 

Carol: Well super cool. So what advice would you guys have for other leaders out there? All the lessons you all have learned. We can try to read the tea leaves, like where is VR heading in the next few years? But what do you all think? Like what do you think where's VR going? And what advice would you have for other leaders? And Kristen, I'll go to you.

 

Kristen: I just think remain committed to the mission and the purpose of the programs that we have. we're here to serve individuals with disabilities. We'd keep that at the forefront. And, you know, I heard Natasha say to you, the mission is on the wall, right? We all have our missions. We all have our visions. Just don't let that get buried in all of the craziness that is happening and continue to be persistent. Carol mentioned the persistence. I think that is key. You don't let it drag you down. Don't let it burn you out. Just be persistent and know that all of the work that you're doing is for a good reason, good outcomes.

 

Carol: Good stuff. Natasha, I'm going to give you the last word.

 

Natasha: Don't get comfortable with how things are going right now. Speaking to what Kristen said earlier? Things will change, and probably for reasons completely outside of your control. And also remember that easy decisions aren't always the best decisions, and the best decisions aren't always the popular ones.

 

Carol: Well said. Very true. Well, I appreciate you both. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to see what you all have done. You're two of my favorite directors. Don't tell the, don't tell the other directors that are listening.

 

Natasha: Yeah, cut that out, Jeff. Don't have that in there.

 

Carol: Thanks for joining me today. Sure appreciate it.

 

Kristen: Thank you.

 

Natasha: Bye.

 

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