From the archive: Varieties of childhood
Many Minds
Hi friends! We're taking a bit of a summer pause. We'll be back soon—in the meanwhile, enjoy this listener favorite from our archives! ----- [originally aired July 10, 2025] Childhood is a special time, a strange time. Children are adored and catered to—they're given their own menus and bedrooms. They're considered delicate and precious, and so we cushion them from every imaginable risk. Kids are encouraged to play, of course—but very often it's under the watchful eye of anxious adults. This, anyway, is how childhood looks in much of the United States today. But is this the way childhood...
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From the archive: Philosophers on psychedelics
Many Minds
Hi friends! We're taking a bit of a summer pause. We will be back soon—in the meanwhile, enjoy this listener favorite from our archives! ----- [originally aired May 14, 2025] Some call it the "psychedelic renaissance." In the last decade or so, interest in psychedelic drugs has surged—and not just among Silicon Valley types and psychiatrists and neuroscientists. It's also surged among a stereotypically soberer crowd: academic philosophers. The reasons are clear. With their varied and sometimes transformative effects, psychedelics raise ethical questions, epistemological questions,...
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The origins of Darwin's ideas
Many Minds
No discipline, no sphere of intellectual life, has been untouched by the work of Charles Darwin. He died in 1882 but his ideas are very much alive; they're now central to how we understand the natural world, the human mind, non-human minds, plants, biogeography, morality and emotion, culture, language, and more. But where did his ideas come from? How did they grow out of his travels, his social circle, his hobbies, his particular cast of mind? My guest today is . Janet is Professor Emerita at Harvard University in the department of the History of Science. She is perhaps best known for...
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The sparkling deep
Many Minds
It’s tempting to see bioluminescence as an oddity, one of those rare eccentricities of life on earth. And, on land, maybe that’s true. But our planet is mostly water, and out in the open ocean bioluminescence is utterly commonplace. Creatures of all shapes and sorts sparkle and glow, glitter and pulse. But what are these displays for? Why did they evolve? How did light become the currency of the deep? My guest today is . Sönke is a Distinguished Professor of Biology at Duke University, where he and his research group study the visual ecology of the ocean. He’s the author of...
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Is Man the Hunter just a myth?
Many Minds
There's a story about of our past that you know well. It goes like this: At some point earlier in human evolution, we started to hunt. Men in particular—perhaps channeling some deep-seated aggressive impulses—began to seek out big game. This new food source, this bonanza of calories, was what allowed our brains to expand. It changed our bodies and our societies and sent our species off on a whole new track. In short, Man the Hunter made us human. This story—told in different versions, with different points of emphasis—has circulated for decades. It's been debunked and revived, rejected...
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Babies, dogs, and the riddles of word learning
Many Minds
It's kind of astonishing, really, that kids ever learn words. Each one poses a little riddle. Does this sound string refer to a person? A category of things? Or maybe some other feature of the blooming, buzzing world? And yet word learning happens. In fact, we now know it begins earlier in infancy than we realized. And we now know, further, that dogs (or at least some dogs) understand words as well. So how does this happen? What do babies and dogs really know about words? And how might we go about figuring this all out? My guests today are and Dr. Claudia Fugazza. Elika is an Associate...
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The inner life of the hand
Many Minds
Newton saw in the human hand proof of the divine; Darwin saw a key to our species' success. Many others, too, have described the hand in hyperbolic terms, as a paragon of design, a cornerstone of human uniqueness, an engine of our achievements. But what makes the human hand so powerful? Is it the proportions of the fingers? Is it the opposability of the thumb? Or, could it be none of this? Could it be that the real power of our hands lies—not in the physical design—but elsewhere, out of sight? My guest today is . Matt is Professor of Cognitive Neuroscience at Birkbeck, University of...
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From the archive: The cuttlefish and its coat of many colors
Many Minds
Hi friends! We're skipping a beat to take care of some spring housekeeping tasks. We will be back in May! In the meanwhile, enjoy this listener favorite from our archives! ----- [originally aired April 30, 2025] We humans have a hard time becoming invisible. For better or worse, we're basically stuck with the skin and body we have; we’re pretty fixed in our color, our shape, our overall appearance. And so we're fascinated by creatures that aren't—creatures that morph to meet the moment, that can functionally disappear, that can shape-shift on a dime. And no creatures are more skilled,...
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Illuminating cave art
Many Minds
Deep in our past, in the dark depths of caves, our ancestors did something strange and beautiful. Working by firelight, some doodled little designs. Others made hand stencils. Some saw a bulge of rock, or a crack in the wall, and thought to turn it into a horse or a bison. Why did they make this art? What did it mean to them? Who were these artists? These questions are old—very old—but thanks to new methods and new interpretive frameworks, archaeologists are beginning to see them in a new light. My guest today is . Izzy is an archaeologist at Aarhus University in Denmark,...
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What can AI teach us about the mind?
Many Minds
Everyone is talking about AI these days. Often these conversations are about how AI might upend education, or work, or social life, or maybe civilization itself. But among cognitive scientists and psychologists the conversation inevitably drifts toward other questions. What does this latest generation of AI tell us about the human mind? Is it putting old ideas and theories to rest? Is it ushering in new ones? Will AI—in other words—also upend cognitive science? My guests today are and . Mike is a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University, where focuses on language learning and...
info_outlineEveryone is talking about AI these days. Often these conversations are about how AI might upend education, or work, or social life, or maybe civilization itself. But among cognitive scientists and psychologists the conversation inevitably drifts toward other questions. What does this latest generation of AI tell us about the human mind? Is it putting old ideas and theories to rest? Is it ushering in new ones? Will AI—in other words—also upend cognitive science?
My guests today are Dr. Mike Frank and Dr. Gary Lupyan. Mike is a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University, where his lab focuses on language learning and cognition in children. Gary is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, where his lab studies language and its role in augmenting human cognition. Both Gary and Mike have more recently been thinking a lot about AI and how it is challenging and deepening our understanding of the human mind.
In this conversation, we talk about being interested in AI as cognitive scientists—while also being concerned about the technology as people. We discuss the linguistic abilities of frontier LLMs compared to the linguistic abilities of adult humans. We talk about a glaring "data gap" here—the fact that, even though LLMs often rival human abilities, they require orders of magnitude more data to do so. We contrast the capabilities of large language models with so-called BabyLMs. We consider the fact that, as LLMs master language, they also master other abilities—capacities for mathematical reasoning, causal understanding, possibly theory of mind, and more. And we talk about why language might be an especially potent form of input for an AI. Along the way, we touch on reference and the symbol grounding problem, the Platonic Representation Hypothesis, stimulus computability, confabulated citations, pattern matching and jabberwocky, the poverty of the stimulus argument, congenital blindness, Quine's topiary, the limits of in principle demonstrations, the WEIRD problem, and what the astonishing sophistication of disembodied AIs might suggest about the role of bodily experience in human cognition.
Before we get to it, one small request: we’re currently running a short survey of our listeners. You can find the link in our show notes. If you have a few minutes, we'd really love your input!
Alright friends, here's my conversation with Mike Frank and Gary Lupyan. I think you'll enjoy it!
Notes
5:00 – For more discussion of “stochastic parrots” and other ways of framing AI systems, see our recent episode with Melanie Mitchell. For the “octopus test,” see here.
8:00 – “BabyLMs” are—in contrast to large LMs (aka LLMs)—models that are trained on a more human-scale amount of linguistic input. For more on the BabyLM community, see here.
12:00 – For broad discussion of the use of AIs as “cognitive models,” see this paper by Dr. Frank and a colleague. The same paper discusses the idea of “stimulus computability.”
18:00 – For Dr. Frank’s “baby steps” paper, see here.
20:00 – For more on how Claude understands line breaks, see Anthropic’s analysis of the issue here.
23:00 – For work on human-like grammaticality judgments in LLMs, see this paper by a team including Dr. Lupyan.
24:00 – See here for an influential paper on, among other things, how LLMs refute the idea that syntax is unlearnable. The article titled ‘How linguistics learned to stop worrying and love the language models’ is here; Dr. Lupyan’s commentary—‘Large language models have learned to use language’—here.
29:00 – For some of Dr. Lupyan’s work on the “abstractness” of even concrete concepts, see here.
35:00 – For a classic paper on the so-called symbol grounding problem, see here.
37:00 – For the preprint putting forth the “Platonic Representation Hypothesis,” see here.
40:30 – For more on the data gap between children and LLMs—and what accounts for it—see Dr. Frank’s paper here.
45:00 – For a sampling of Dr. Frank and colleagues’ work comparing language models to children, see here, here, and here. For more on the LEVANTE project, a collaborative effort spearheaded by Dr. Frank, see here.
48:00 – For the preprint—"The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Pattern Matching," by Dr. Lupyan and a colleague—see here.
55:00 – For more on Dr. Lupyan’s perspective on the centrality of language in human cognition, see here. See also this more recent paper, considering the question in light of LLMs.
58:00 – For our earlier episode with Dr. Marina Bedny, see here. For the recent paper by Dr. Bedny and colleagues considering their research on congenital blindness in light of LLMs, see here.
1:01:00 – For classic work on language learning in blind children, see here.
1:02:00 – For a paper by Dr. Lupyan and colleagues on “hidden” individual differences, see here.
1:03:00 – For more on “multiple realizability,” see here. For our earlier episode with Dr. Eric Turkheimer, see here.
1:09:00 – For more on the work of Dr. Frank’s collaborator, Dan Yamins, see here.
1:14:00 – See our earlier episode with Dr. M.J. Crockett for more discussion of the “WEIRD problem” around scientific uses of AI. In the same episode, we discussed how new scientific methods focus attention on questions that can be studied with those methods.
Recommendations
A Mind at Play, by Jimmy Soni & Rob Goodman
On Desire, by William Irvine
Patterns, thinking, and cognition, by Howard Margolis
Open Encyclopedia of Cognitive Science
The BabyLM workshops/community (e.g., the entry on LLMs)
Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd.
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