How to Build What You Believe with Shannon Deep and Kevan Lee

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I’m joined by Kevan Lee and Shannon Deep, co-founders of Bonfire – a creative studio reimagining what it means to build brands, tell stories, and live meaningful lives.

We talk about how Bonfire began as a “Trojan horse” – a branding agency on the surface, but really a vehicle for deeper questions: What does fulfilling work look like? How do we find meaning beyond our careers? And how can business become a space for honesty, connection, and growth?

Kevan and Shannon share how their partnership formed, what it takes to build trust as co-founders, and how vulnerability and self-awareness fuel their collaboration. We explore their path from tech and theater to building Bonfire, hosting creative retreats, and helping founders tell more authentic stories.

We also dive into how AI is changing storytelling, the myth of “broetry” on LinkedIn, and why transparency is the future of marketing.

If you’re curious about what’s next for creativity, leadership, and meaningful work, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we’ll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI.

Start (0:00)

How Bonfire Started (14:25)

• Robin notes how transparent and intentional they’ve been building their business and community

• Says Bonfire feels like a 21st-century agency – creative, human, and not traditional

• Invites them to describe what they’re building and their vision for it

• Kevan’s response:

• Admits he feels imposter syndrome around being called an “entrepreneur”

• Laughs that it’s technically true but still feels strange

• Describes Bonfire as partly a traditional branding agency

• They work with early-stage startups

• Help with brand strategy, positioning, messaging, and differentiation.

• But says the heart of their work is much deeper

• “We create spaces for people to explore what a fulfilling life looks like – one that includes work, but isn’t defined by it.”

• Their own careers inspired this – jobs that paid well but felt empty, or jobs that felt good but didn’t pay the bills

• Bonfire became their way to build something more meaningful

• A space to have these conversations themselves

• And to invite others into it

• This includes community, retreats, and nontraditional formats

• Jokes that the agency side is a Trojan horse – a vehicle to fund the work they truly care about

• Shannon adds:

• They’re agnostic about what Bonfire “does”

• Could be a branding agency, publishing house, even an ice cream shop

• “Money is just gas in the engine.”

• The larger goal is creating spaces for people to explore their relationship to work

• Especially for those in transition, searching for meaning, or redefining success

• Robin reflects on their unusual path

• Notes most marketers who start agencies chase awards and fame

• But Shannon and Kevan built Bonfire around what they wished existed

• Recalls their past experiences

• Kevan’s path from running a publication (later sold to Vox) to Buffer and then Oyster

• Shannon’s shared time with him at Oyster

• Mentions their recent milestone – Bonfire’s first live retreat in France

• 13 participants, including them

• Held in a rented castle

• For a two-year-old business, he calls it ambitious and impressive

• Asks: “How did it go? What did people get out of it?”

• Shannon on the retreat

• Laughs that they’re still processing what it was

• They had a vibe in mind – but not a fixed structure

• One participant described it as “a wellness retreat for marketers”

• Not wrong – but also not quite right

• Attendees came from tech and non-tech backgrounds

• The focus: exploring people’s most meaningful relationship to work

• Who you are when you’re not at your desk

• How to bring that awareness back to real life — beyond castles and catered meals

• People came at it from different angles

• Some felt misaligned with their work

• Others were looking for something new

• Everyone was at a crossroads in their career

• Kevan on the space they built

• The retreat encouraged radical honesty

• People shared things like:

• “I have this job because I crave approval.”

• “I care about money as a status symbol.”

• “I hate what I do, but I don’t know what else I’d be good at.”

• They didn’t force vulnerability, but wanted to make it safe if people chose it

• They thought deeply about values – what needed to be true for that kind of trust

• Personally, Kevan says the experience shifted his identity

• From “marketer” to something else – maybe “producer,” maybe “creator”

• The retreat made him realize how many paths are possible

• “Now I just want to do more of this.”

• Robin notes there are “so many threads to pull on”

• Brings up family business and partnerships

• Shares his own experience growing up in his dad’s small business

• Talks about lessons from Robin’s Cafe and the challenges of partnerships

• Says he’s fascinated by co-founder dynamics – both powerful and tricky

• Asks how Shannon and Kevan’s working relationship works

• What it was like at Oyster

• Why they decided to start Bonfire together

• And how it’s evolved after the retreat

• Kevan on their beginnings

• He hired Shannon at Oyster – she was Editorial Director, he was SVP of Marketing

• Worked together for about a year and a half

• Knew early on that something clicked

• Shared values

• Similar worldview

• Trusted each other

• When Oyster ended, partnering up felt natural – “Let’s figure out what’s next, together.”

• Robin observes their groundedness

• Says they both seem stable and mature, which likely helps the partnership

• Jokes about his own chaos running Robin’s Café – late nights, leftover wine, cold quinoa

• Asks Shannon directly: “Do you still follow Kevan’s lead?”

• Shannon’s laughs and agrees they’re both very regulated people

• But adds that it comes from learned coping mechanisms

• Says they’ve both developed pro-social ways to handle stress

• People-pleasing

• Overachievement

• Perfectionism

• Intellectualizing feelings instead of expressing them

• “Those are coping mechanisms too,” she notes, “but at least they keep us calm when we talk.”

Building Trust and Partnership (14:54–23:15)

• Shannon says both she and Kevan have done deep personal work.

• Therapy, reflection, and self-inquiry are part of their toolkit.

• That helps them handle a relationship that’s both intimate and challenging.

• They know their own baggage.

• They try not to take the other person’s reactions personally.

• It doesn’t always work—but they trust they’ll work through conflict.

• When they started Bonfire:

• They agreed the business world is unpredictable.

• So they made a pinky swear:

• Friends first, business second.

• The friendship is the real priority.

• When conflict comes up, they ask: “Is this really life or death—or are we just forgetting what matters?”

• Shannon goes back to the question and clarifies 

• Says they lead in different ways.

• Each has their “zone of genius.”

• They depend on each other’s strengths.

• It’s not leader and follower – it’s mutual reliance.

• Shannon explains:

• Kevan’s great at momentum:

• He moves things forward and ships projects fast.

• Shannon tends to be more perfectionist:

• Wants things to be fully formed before releasing.

• Kevan adds they talk often about “rally and rest.”

• Kevan rallies, he thrives on pressure and urgency.

• Shannon rests, she values slowing down and reflection.

• Together, that creates a healthy rhythm. 

• Robin notes lingering habits

• Wonders if any “hangovers” from their Oyster days remain.

• Kevan reflects 

• At first, he hesitated to show weakness.

• Coming from a manager role, vulnerability felt risky.

• Shannon quickly saw through it.

• He realized openness was essential, not optional.

• Says their friendship and business both rely on honesty.

• Robin agrees and says he wouldn’t discourage co-founders—it’s just a big decision.

• Like choosing a spouse, it shapes your life for years.

• Notes he’s never met with one of them without the other.

• “That says something,” he adds.

• Their partnership clearly works—even if it takes twice the time.

Rethinking Marketing (23:19)

• Kevan’s light moment:

• Asks if Robin’s comment about their teamwork was feedback for them.

• Robin’s observation 

• Notes how in sync Shannon and Kevan are.

• Emails one, gets a reply CC’d with the other.

• Says the tempo of Bonfire feels like their collaboration itself.

• Wonders what that rhythm feels like internally.

• Kevan’s response 

• Says it’s partly intentional, partly habit.

• They genuinely enjoy working together.

• Adds they don’t chase traditional agency milestones.

• No interest in Ad Age lists or Cannes awards.

• Their goal: have fun and make meaningful work.

• Robin pivots to the state of marketing (24:04)

• Mentions the shift from Madison Avenue’s glory days to today’s tech-driven world.

• Refers to Mad Men and the “growth at all costs” startup era.

• Notes how AI and tech are changing how people see their role in work and life.

• Kevan’s background 

• Came from startups, not agencies.

• Learned through doing, not an MBA.

• Immersed in books like Hypergrowth and Traction.

• Took Reforge courses—knows the mechanics of scaling.

• Before that, worked as a journalist.

• Gained curiosity and calm under pressure, but also urgency.

• Admits startup life taught him both good and bad habits.

• Robin notes 

• Neither lives the Madison Avenue life.

• Kevan’s in Boise.

• Shannon’s in France.

• Shannon’s background

• Started in theater – behind the scenes as a dramaturg and producer.

• Learned how to shape emotion and tell stories.

• Transitioned into brand strategy in New York.

• Worked at a top agency, Siegel+Gale.

• Helped global B2B and B2C clients define mission, values, and design.

• Competed with big names like Interbrand and Pentagram.

• Later moved in-house at tech startups.

• Saw how B2B marketing often tries to “act cool” like B2C.

• Learned to translate creative ideas into language that convinces CFOs.

• Says her role often meant selling authentic storytelling to risk-averse execs.

• Admits she joined marketing out of necessity.

• “I was 27, broke in New York, and needed a parking spot for my storytelling skills.”

• Robin connects the dots 

• Notes how Silicon Valley’s “growth” culture mirrors old ad-world burnout.

• Growth at all costs.

• Not much room for creative autonomy.

• Adds most big agencies are now owned by holding companies.

• The original Madison Avenue independence is nearly gone.

• Robin’s reflection 

• Mentions how AI-generated content is changing video and storytelling.

• Grateful his clients still value human connection.

• Asks how Bonfire helps brands tell authentic stories now that the old model is fading.

• Kevan’s take 

• Says people now care less about “moments” and more about audiences.

• It’s not about one viral hit—it’s about building consistency.

• Brands need to stand for something, and keep showing up.

• People want that outcome, even if they don’t want the hard work behind it.

• Shannon adds

• Notes rising skepticism among audiences.

• Most content people see isn’t from who they follow, it’s ads and algorithms.

• Consumers are subconsciously filtering out the noise.

• Says that’s why human storytelling matters more than ever.

• People crave knowing a real person is behind the message.

• AI can mimic tone but not authenticity.

• Adds it’s hard to convince some clients of that.

• Authentic work isn’t fast or easily measured.

• It requires belief in the process and a value system to match.

• That’s tough when your client’s investors only want quick returns.

• Robin agrees 

• “Look at people’s incentives and I’ll tell you who they are.”

• Shannon continues

• Wonders where their responsibility ends.

• Should they convince people of their values?

• Or just do the work and let the right clients come?

• Kevan says they’ve found a sweet spot with current clients.

• Mostly bootstrapped founders.

• Work with them long-term instead of one-off projects.

• Says that’s the recipe that fits Bonfire’s values and actually works.

The Quarter Analogy (35:36)

• Robin quotes BJ Fogg:

• “Don’t try to persuade people of your worldview. Look for people who already want what you can teach, and just show them how.”

• He compares arguing with people who don’t align to “an acrobat arguing with gravity – gravity will win 100% of the time.”

• The key: harness momentum instead of fighting resistance. Even a small, aligned audience is better than chasing everyone.

• Kevan shares Bonfire’s failed experiment with outbound sales:

• They tried reaching out to recently funded AI companies.

• “It got us nowhere,” he admits.

• That experience reminded him how much old startup habits – growth at all costs, scale fast – still shape thinking.

• “I thought success meant getting as big as possible, as fast as possible. That meant doing outbound, even if it felt inauthentic.”

• But that mindset just added pressure.

• Realizing there were other ways to grow – slower, more intentional – was a relief.

• Now they’ve stopped outbound entirely.

• Focused instead on aligned clients who find them naturally.

• Robin connects it to a MrBeast quote.

• “If I’m not ashamed of the video I put out last week, I’m not growing fast enough.”

• He says he doesn’t love the “shame” part but relates to the evolution mindset –

• Looking back at work from six months ago and thinking, I’d do that differently now.

• Growth as a visible, measurable journey.

• Robin shifts to storytelling frameworks:

• Mentions Kevan and Shannon’s analogies about storytelling and asks about “the quarter analogy.”

• Kevan explains the “quarter” story:

• A professor holds up two quarters: “Sell me the one on the right.”

• No one can – until someone says, “I’ll dip it in Marilyn Monroe’s purse.”

• That coin now has emotional and cultural value.

• Marketing can be the same – alchemy that turns something ordinary into something meaningful.

• Robin builds on that:

• You can tell stories about a coin’s history – “Lincoln touched it,” etc.

• But Kevan’s version is different: adding new meaning in the present.

• “How do you imbue something with value now that makes it matter later?”

• Shannon’s take:

• It’s about values and belonging.

• “Every story implicitly says: believe this.”

• That belief also says: we don’t believe that – defining who’s in your tribe.

• Humans crave that – community, validation, connection.

• That belonging is intangible but real.

• “Try selling that to a CFO who just wants ROI. Impossible — but it’s real.”

• Kevan adds:

• Values are one piece – authenticity is another.

• Some brands already have a genuine story; others want to create one.

• “We get asked to dip AI companies into Marilyn Monroe’s purse,” he jokes.

• The real work is uncovering what’s true or helping brands rediscover it.

• The challenge: telling that story consistently and believably.

• Robin mentions Shannon’s storytelling framework of three parts –

• Purpose → Story frameworks → Touch points.

• Shannon breaks it down:

• Clients usually come in with half-baked “mission” or “vision” statements.

• She uses Ogilvy’s “Big Ideal” model:

• Combine a cultural tension (what’s happening in the world) with your brand’s best self.

• Then fill in the blank:

• “We believe the world would be a better place if…”

• That single sentence surfaces a company’s “why us” and “why now.”

• It’s dramaturgy, really — same question as in theater:

• “Why this play now?”

• “Why us?”

• Bonfire’s own version (in progress):

• “We believe the world would be a better place if people and brands had more room to explore their creativity.”

• Kevan adds: it’s evolving, like them.

• Robin relates it back to his own story:

• After selling Robin’s Café, he started Zander Media to tell human stories.

• He wanted to document real connections — “the barista-customer relationships, the neighborhood changing.”

• That became his north star: storytelling as a tool for change and human connection.

• “I don’t care about video,” he says. “I care about storytelling, helping people become more of who they want to be.”

• Kevan closes the loop:

• A good purpose statement is expansive.

• It can hold video, podcasts, even a publishing house.

• “Maybe tomorrow it’s something else. That’s the beauty — it allows room to grow.”

Against the Broetry (49:01)

• Kevan reflects on transparency and values at Bonfire

• He and Robin came from Buffer, a company known for radical transparency — posting salaries, growth numbers, everything.

• Says that while Bonfire isn’t as extreme about it, the spirit is the same.

• “It just comes naturally to invite people in.”

• Their openness isn’t a tactic – it’s aligned with their values and mission.

• They want to create space for people to explore – new ideas, new ways of working, more fulfilling lives.

• Sharing their journey publicly felt like the obvious, authentic thing to do.

• “It wasn’t even a conversation – just who we are.”

• Shannon jumps in with a critique of business culture online

• Says there’s so much terrible advice about “how to build a business.”

• Compliments Robin for cutting through the noise – being honest through Snafu and his newsletter.

• “You’re trying to be real about what selling feels like and what it says about you.”

• Calls out the “rise and grind” nonsense dominating LinkedIn:

• “Wake up at 4 a.m., protein shake at 4:10, three-hour workout…”

• Robin laughs – “I’ll take the three-hour workout, but I’ll pass on the protein shake.”

• Shannon and Kevan call it “broetry”

• The overblown, performative business storytelling on social media.

• “I went on my honeymoon and here’s what I learned about B2B sales.”

• Their goal with building in public is the opposite:

• To admit mistakes.

• To share pivots and moments of doubt.

• To remind people that everyone is figuring it out.

• “But the system rewards the opposite – gatekeeping, pretending, keeping up the facade.”

• Shannon says she has “no patience for it.”

• She traces that belief back to a story from college

• Producer Paula Wagner once told her class:

• “Here’s the secret: nobody knows anything.”

• That line stuck with her.

• Gave her permission to question authority.

• To show up confidently even when others pretend to know more.

• After years of watching powerful men “fail upward,” she realized:

• “The emperor has no clothes.”

• So she might as well take up space too.

• Transparency, for her, is a form of connection and courage –

• “When people raise their eyes from their desks and actually meet each other, that’s power.”

• Robin thanks Shannon for the kind words about Snafu.

• Says their work naturally attracts people who want that kind of realness.

• Then pivots to a closing question:

• “If you had one piece of advice for founders – about storytelling or business building – what would it be?”

• Kevan’s advice:

• “Look beyond what’s around you.”

• Inspiration doesn’t have to come from your industry.

• Learn from other fields, other stories, other worlds.

• It builds curiosity, empathy, and creativity.

• Robin sums it up: “Get out of your silos.”

• Shannon’s advice:

• “Make the thing you actually want to see.”

• Too many founders copy what’s trendy or “smart.”

• Ask instead: What would I genuinely love to consume?

• Remember your audience is human, like you.

• And remember, building a business is a privilege.

• You get to create a small world that reflects your values.

• You get to hire people, pay them, shape a culture.

• “That’s so cool, and it should make you feel powerful.”

• With that power comes responsibility.

• “Everyone says it’s about making the most money. But what if the goal was to make the coolest world possible, for as many people as possible?”

Where to find Kevan and Shannon (57:16)

• Points listeners to aroundthebonfire.com/experiences.

• That’s where they host their retreats.

• Next one is April 2026.

• “We’d love to see you there.”

 

Companies/Organizations

• Bonfire

• Buffer

• Oyster

• Vox

• Zander Media

• Siegel+Gale

• Interbrand

• Pentagram

• Reforge

• Robin’s Café

Books / Frameworks / Theories

• Traction

• BJ Fogg’s behavioral model

• Ogilvy’s “Big Ideal”

• Purpose → Story Frameworks → Touch Point

People

• Paula Wagner

• BJ Fogg

• MrBeast (Jimmy Donaldson)

• David Ogilvy

Newsletters

• Snafu

• Kevan’s previous publication