Why the Best Product Owners Let Go of What They're Best At | Carmela Then
Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Release Date: 01/09/2026
Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
BONUS: Saving Democracy—How AI Is Transforming the Battlefield for Our Minds In this very special BONUS episode, we speak with Anthony Vinci, former CTO and Associate Director of the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) and author of . Anthony has been at the frontlines of modernizing the intelligence community for the age of AI, and in this episode, he lays out a stark warning: we are entering an era where machines don't just augment intelligence—they transform it. But the real battlefield isn't just digital; it's cognitive, economic, and societal. From Startup Founder to...
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Carmela Then: Why the Best Product Owners Let Go of What They're Best At The Great Product Owner: The Humble Leader Who Served His Team Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "He was there, he was present, he was serving the team." - Carmela Then Carmela worked with a Product Owner at a bank who embodied everything servant leadership should look like. This wasn't a PO who lorded his business expertise over the team—instead, he brought cookies, cracked...
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Carmela Then: Why Teams Hate Agile (And How to Change That) Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "They just hate it. They absolutely hate it. They had Agile fatigue." - Carmela Then Carmela describes what success looks like for a Scrum Master, and her answer might surprise you. Years ago, she might have pointed to metrics like cycle time. Today, she measures success by whether teams embrace Agile and Scrum rather than resent it. She joined a team...
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Carmela Then: From Requirements Chaos to Story Mapping Success—How Planning Transforms Agile Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "We can't continue to do this. Something has to change." - Carmela Then Carmela shares a story of organizational chaos that will resonate with many Agile practitioners. She joined a company where teams would jump straight into writing requirements without pausing to understand what they were trying to achieve. Vendor...
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Carmela Then: When Remote Teams Stop Listening—The Silent Killer of Agile Collaboration Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "Two minutes into it, my mind's starting to wander and I started to do my own thing." - Carmela Then Carmela paints a vivid picture of a distributed team stretched across Sydney, New Zealand, India, and beyond—a team where communication had quietly become the enemy of progress. The warning signs were subtle at first: in meetings...
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Carmela Then: The Scrum Master Who Learned That Perfect Boards Don't Build Perfect Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "The failure part is, instead of leading the team to work toward a common vision, I was probably one of the persons that helped the divide." - Carmela Then Carmela shares a vulnerable story from her first Scrum Master role at a bank. Armed with training, certifications, and the ability to build a beautiful physical Scrum board with...
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Steve Martin: Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer In this episode, we refer to video and . The Great Product Owner: Rob Gard's Customer Obsession Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "The role of the PO really is to help the team empathize with the user, the customer of the product, because that's how they can develop great solutions." - Steve Martin Rob Gard worked at a fintech firm and is now CPO of a major fintech company. Steve...
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Steve Martin: Making Scrum Master Success Visible with OKRs That Actually Work Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "It is not the retrospective that is the success of the retrospective. It is the ownership and accountability where you take improvements after the session." - Steve Martin The biggest problem for Scrum Masters isn't just defining success—it's being able to shout it from the rooftops with tangible evidence. Steve champions OKRs as an amazing...
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Steve Martin: Why Agile Fatigue Means We Need to Change Our Approach Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "We teach transformation, we support transformation, we help change, but we don't really understand what they're changing from." - Steve Martin Steve believes Agile as a whole is on the back foot, possibly regressing. There's palpable fatigue in the industry, and transformation in its current form hasn't been the success we hoped. Organizations still...
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Steve Martin: When a Distributed Team's Energy Vanishes into the Virtual Void Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: . "They weren't a team, they were a group of individuals working on multiple different projects." - Vasco Duarte (describing Steve's team situation) The infrastructure team looked promising on paper: Product Owner in Italy, hardware engineers in Budapest, software engineers in Bucharest, designers in the UK. The team started with energy and...
info_outlineCarmela Then: Why the Best Product Owners Let Go of What They're Best At
The Great Product Owner: The Humble Leader Who Served His Team
Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.
"He was there, he was present, he was serving the team." - Carmela Then
Carmela worked with a Product Owner at a bank who embodied everything servant leadership should look like. This wasn't a PO who lorded his business expertise over the team—instead, he brought cookies, cracked jokes, and made everyone feel valued regardless of their role. He knew the product landscape intimately and participated in every refinement session, yet remained approachable and coachable.
When team members came to him confused about stakeholder requests, he willingly stepped in as a mediator. Perhaps most impressively, he actively worked to break down the hierarchical mindset that often plagues traditional organizations. In the beginning, testers felt they couldn't question the business analyst or Product Owner.
By the end, QA team members were confidently pointing out missing scenarios and use cases—and the PO would respond with genuine appreciation: "Oh yes! We missed it! Let's prioritize that story for the next sprint." This PO understood that his role wasn't to have all the answers, but to create an environment where anyone could contribute their expertise. The result was a truly flat, collaborative Scrum team operating exactly as Scrum was designed to work.
Self-reflection Question: How accessible are you to your team, and do you create an environment where anyone—regardless of role—feels comfortable challenging your thinking?
The Bad Product Owner: When Expertise Becomes a Barrier to Collaboration
Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes.
"He knows everything himself, and everything is in his head. So nobody else knows what he has in his head." - Carmela Then
Carmela describes a Product Owner who wasn't a bad person—in fact, he was incredibly capable. He knew the business from front to back, understood the systems intimately from years of analyst work, and could even write pseudocode himself. The problem? His very competence became a barrier to team collaboration.
Because he knew so much, he struggled to articulate his ideas to others. Frustrated that developers couldn't read his mind, he started writing the code himself and handing it to developers with instructions to simply implement it. The result was disengaged developers who had no understanding of the bigger picture, and a PO who was drowning in work that wasn't his to do.
Carmela approached this with humility, asking what she calls "dumb questions" and requesting that he draw things on paper so she could understand. She made excuses about her "bad memory" to create documentation that could be shared with the whole team.
Over multiple Program Increments, she gently coached him to trust his team: "You are one person. Please let the team help you. The developers are great at what they do—if you share what you're trying to achieve, they can write code that's more efficient and easier to maintain." Eventually, he learned to let go of the coding and focus on what only he could do: sharing his deep business knowledge.
Self-reflection Question: As a leader, what tasks are you holding onto that you should be delegating—and what is your reluctance costing your team?
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🔥In the ruthless world of fintech, success isn't just about innovation—it's about coaching!🔥
Angela thought she was just there to coach a team. But now, she's caught in the middle of a corporate espionage drama that could make or break the future of digital banking. Can she help the team regain their mojo and outwit their rivals, or will the competition crush their ambitions? As alliances shift and the pressure builds, one thing becomes clear: this isn't just about the product—it's about the people.
🚨 Will Angela's coaching be enough? Find out in Shift: From Product to People—the gripping story of high-stakes innovation and corporate intrigue.
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About Carmela Then
Carmela is a Senior Business Analyst with 15+ years in financial and mining sectors. A Certified and Advanced ScrumMaster, she excels in leading agile initiatives, delivering business value, and aligning technical outcomes with strategic goals.
You can link with Carmela Then on LinkedIn.