114: Jessica Dallman, Founder of Natural Wisdom Counseling
Stories from the Field: Mental Health and the Outdoors
Release Date: 02/11/2021
Stories from the Field: Mental Health and the Outdoors
Does wilderness therapy create an altered state similar to psychedelic-assisted therapy? And what can both approaches teach us about trauma, embodiment, and lasting change?In this final episode of Season 25, Will sits down with Dr. Sandy Newes, a psychologist, educator, and longtime experiential practitioner whose career bridges wilderness therapy, trauma-informed care, and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. A 2025 recipient of the Association for Experiential Education Michael Stratton Practitioner Award, Sandy reflects on decades in the field—exploring how experience, embodiment, and...
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What do decades of practice in wilderness therapy reveal about ethics, transport, and change? In this episode, Will talks with Paula Leslie—former Aspen Achievement Academy field guide, therapist, accreditation reviewer, and longtime educational consultant—for a rare and reflective conversation about the evolution of the field. First introduced to many readers through Gary Ferguson’s book Shouting at the Sky, Paula looks back on her formative years, the core lessons that still endure, and the ethical blind spots that only became clear with time. From learning to “do hard things” to...
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What is the most controversial program in the history of wilderness therapy? Some might say it’s the very program podcast host Will White was compelled to attend as a teenager. In this deeply personal and historical episode, Will shares—for the first time in full—the origin story that shaped his life and ultimately his 35-year career in mental health treatment in outdoor settings. Sent by his parents at fourteen to a “wilderness therapy program” long before the field formally existed, Will describes how the experience built him, challenged him, and exposed him to both mentorship and...
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How can parents grow alongside a struggling teen or young adult without getting pulled into their anxiety, shutdown, or refusal? In this episode, Will welcomes back Krissy Pozatek to discuss the updated edition of her influential book, The Parallel Process: Growing Alongside Your Adolescent or Young Adult in Treatment. Krissy explains how the mental health landscape has shifted—more anxiety, school refusal, neurodivergence—and why parents can no longer rely on old models of detachment or over-involvement. She outlines her expanded five principles, including her new emphasis on reframing...
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What happens when a wilderness guide, therapist, and seasoned mentor decides that traditional treatment programs no longer fit the needs of young adults? In this episode, Will speaks with Andrew “Chappy” Chapman, an innovator who has blended decades of guiding, wilderness therapy work, and young adult mentoring into something entirely new: one-to-one immersive adventure model. Chappy traces his path from SUWS of Idaho to the early days of True North Wilderness Program and later to New Summit Academy in Costa Rica, each step shaping his understanding of how young adults learn, struggle,...
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What if “consulting” in mental health meant more than just placement? In this episode Will speaks with Amanda Thomas, founder of , about how she and her team are reimagining therapeutic consulting for families navigating complex emotional and behavioral challenges. Their clinically informed, team-based approach blends therapy, coaching, and systems navigation to meet families where they are—often before residential or wilderness treatment becomes necessary. Drawing on her deep background in wilderness therapy and outdoor leadership, Amanda shares how Cobalt bridges the gap between...
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What do wilderness therapy outcomes really tell us? In this episode, Will talks with researchers Dr. Joanna Bettmann Schaefer and Dr. Laura Mills, two leading researchers studying outcomes in wilderness therapy and residential outdoor treatment. Drawing on data from thousands of adolescents across multiple programs, they reveal what the evidence shows about who benefits most—and who may not—from outdoor behavioral healthcare. Their conversation explores why family engagement is such a powerful predictor of success, how adopted and neurodiverse adolescents often experience different...
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Dr. Patricia Hasbach of Northwest Ecotherapy joins Will to explore how clinicians can bring the healing power of nature into their therapeutic work. Drawing from her new book Patricia shares her journey from traditional therapy settings to incorporating the natural world as an active partner in treatment. She explains the concept of the “ecological self” and how reconnecting clients with nature can reduce anxiety, depression, and stress while deepening connection and meaning. Patricia also offers practical guidance on writing “nature prescriptions,” navigating ethical considerations,...
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Why are so many young people struggling—and are adults partly to blame? Dr. Will Dobud and Dr. Nevin Harper return to Stories from the Field to talk with Will about their bold new book, Kids These Days: Understanding and Supporting Youth Mental Health. Building on their past appearances, they explore why youth mental health keeps declining despite unprecedented access to therapy, medication, and awareness—and what adults can do to change the story. Drawing on decades of research and global experience, they challenge the assumption that kids are the problem, pointing instead to the...
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Journalist and bestselling author Florence Williams joins Will to explore how time outdoors can transform our minds and bodies. Drawing from her acclaimed book The Nature Fix and her retreats around the world, Florence shares what first inspired her to study the science of nature’s impact on mental health — and how awe, quiet, and sunlight can rewire our brains for calm and connection. They discuss the “three-day effect,” the power of forest bathing, and simple daily practices anyone can use to bring more nature into life — even in cities. Whether you’re a reader of The Nature Fix...
info_outlineJessica Dallman is the founder of Natural Wisdom Counseling. Jessica's journey into the field began at a young age by being raised by veterinarian parents and growing up on a rural vet clinic. Jessica would take a "transformational" Outward Bound course in high school and would go on to attend college, teaching deaf people on a Navajo reservation, and then onto Naropa University for a master's degree. Jessica shares the evolution of Natural Wisdom Counseling and her work with deaf people and others.
Jessica's Bio from Natural Wisdom Counseling:
As a psychotherapist, I support people in recovering from stress and trauma, in developing a sense of purpose, in building positive and supportive relationships, and in living a fulfilling life. I believe that each person has access to a wealth of knowledge about how to grow and heal. That wisdom may be accessed through nature, body-based interventions, horses, EMDR therapy, or a variety of other tools. Ultimately, I facilitate my client's access to their own inherent, natural wisdom.
I received my Master's degree in Transpersonal Counseling Psychology (Wilderness Therapy) from Naropa University and am trained in EMDR therapy, Gestalt Equine psychotherapy, and Infant, Early Childhood, and Family Mental Health. I integrate human development, attachment, neuroscience, nature, and the body into a relational approach to counseling. This synthesis of theories and approaches provides my clients with a holistic experience that empowers them to uncover new layers of self-understanding. I aim to enhance client strengths and potential, and provide tools for clients to overcome issues that may be preventing them from thriving.
While I enjoy nature-based interventions, time outside is not a requirement for therapy with me. I incorporate movement, art, and social justice counseling into sessions in my office, as appropriate. I am experiential in my approach, which can efficiently access the emotional centers in the brain in ways that traditional "talk therapy" may struggle to access.
I have a client-centered, strengths-based, growth-focused approach to all of my sessions, regardless of your preferred method of therapy. Trauma-informed care is integrated into every case.
I see my life as a continuous journey and adventure. Growing up, I was exposed to the outdoors early and often, which led to my belief that Nature offers supportive, healing, sacred, and transformative powers. I believe that intersectional issues of power and privilege play a large role in how our systems work, how we experience and access the world, and what messages we receive about our worth. I also believe that those messages and wounds can be healed through relationship.
I am proficient in American Sign Language (ASL) have been involved in the Deaf community since 2009.