School Choice, Competition vs. Spending
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida’s tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes. Have some feedback you’d like to share? You can email me at . If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please or wherever you're listening. The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public...
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Moving From Formative Assessment To Action
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching. Have some feedback you’d like to share? You can email me at . If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please or wherever you're listening. The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in...
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Engineering the Aha, What's Missing From Inquiry
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
talks with Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher, host of the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast, and advocate for evidence-informed pedagogy. Brendan shares his transition from an initial belief in unguided project-based learning to a more structured approach rooted in the Science of Reading and the instructional hierarchy. Have some feedback you’d like to share? You can email me at . If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please or wherever you're listening. Brendan explains the instructional hierarchy—a framework that identifies where a student sits on the continuum from...
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John Sweller On The Foundations And Future Of Cognitive Load Theory
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
speaks with John Sweller, Emeritus Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of New South Wales, and Oliver Caviglioli, information designer and former special school principal, about the foundations and future of Cognitive Load Theory (CLT). As one of the most influential frameworks in modern education, CLT provides a scientific roadmap for understanding how human cognitive architecture dictates the way we should—and shouldn't—teach. Have some feedback you’d like to share? You can email me at . If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a...
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Modern Learning And The Paradox Of Edtech
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
talks with Brian Lamb, founder of Swivl, about the "Paradox of Edtech" and how modern digital interfaces are changing the way we learn. They discuss the shift from being "data-driven" to "data-informed," the importance of "decentering" for perspective-taking, and how AI can serve as a reflective thought partner for teachers rather than a replacement for human-led instruction. Have some feedback you’d like to share? You can email me at . If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Episode Overview: Brian Lamb...
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10 Months At Sea, A School For Global Leadership
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
welcomes Emily Waugh and Gabriela Delgado de Fina, both Assistant Heads of School for the A+ World Academy. They discuss the academy's unique educational model: a 10-month voyage for 72 students aboard the Sorlandet, a fully rigged ship built in 1927. The conversation explores the challenges and rewards of a "school at sea," where academics, communal living, and maritime training converge. Have some feedback you’d like to share? You can email me at . If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. Emily and...
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Failure Factory, A Warning For Public Schools
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
talks with investigative reporter Chris Papst about his book, Failure Factory: How Baltimore City Public Schools Deprive Taxpayers and Students of a Future . Papst, a reporter for Project Baltimore, shares his deep-dive into why one of the most funded school systems in America remains one of the lowest performing . From systemic grade manipulation to the misuse of school funds, this conversation explores the "end stages" of a failing public education system and serves as a critical warning for the rest of the country . Papst details the findings of his multi-year investigation, which...
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AI, Inquiry, And The Future Of Thinking
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
welcomes Carole Geneix, Director of Teaching and Learning at Washington International School, to the podcast to discuss the evolving landscape of Artificial Intelligence in education. As schools grapple with the "AI revolution," Geneix argues that instead of fearing these tools, educators must integrate them into content-rich, inquiry-based frameworks to deepen student thinking. Have some feedback you’d like to share? You can email us at drew@thoughtstretchers.org. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you’re listening. Carole...
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Beyond Explicit Instruction, The Importance of Elaboration
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
welcomes education writer and author Natalie Wexler to the podcast to discuss her latest work and the evolving conversation around explicit instruction and the "Science of Reading." While the movement has successfully brought phonics to the forefront, Wexler argues that too narrow of a focus ignores the lessons of the Science of Learning. Wexler notes that the "Science of Reading" is often misunderstood as being synonymous with phonics. While foundational skills are non-negotiable, she explains that the "Mississippi Miracle" and other literacy success stories are incomplete...
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Why Classroom Technology Harms Learning (with Jared Cooney Horvath)
The ThoughtStretchers Podcast
welcomes neuroscientist and acclaimed author Jared Cooney Horvath to dissect his new book, The Digital Delusion, which provides a rigorous, evidence-based critique of edtech. Horvath doesn’t mince words, arguing that the majority of student-facing, internet-connected devices should be removed from schools. He reveals that over 60 years of consistent data supports his claim that the integration of digital tools is fundamentally detrimental to effective learning. This isn’t a Luddite’s complaint; it’s a detailed exploration of the Neuroscience of Learning. The harm is...
info_outlineDrew Perkins welcomes Gary Schiffman and Jon Bassett of 4QM Teaching to the podcast to discuss their new US History curriculum and the principles behind their innovative Four Question Method.
Links & Resources Mentioned In This Episode
This conversation explores the gap between traditional inquiry-based learning and the need for explicit instruction in historical content and disciplinary thinking. Gary and Jon explain how their curriculum is designed to support "ordinary teachers" and build students' capacity for civil disagreement by grounding critical thinking in a robust body of knowledge.
- Key Takeaways & Discussion Points The Power of the 4QM Method: We detail why 4QM Teaching shifted from consulting to developing a full curriculum, recognizing the need for a practical vehicle to implement their teaching framework in the classroom.
- The Four Question Framework: Learn the four core questions that anchor every lesson and build specific historical thinking skills:
- Q1: What happened? (The skill of Narration and Storytelling)
- Q2: What were they thinking? (The skill of Interpretation of documents)
- Q3: Why then and there? (The skill of Explanation and causation)
- Q4: What do we think about that? (The skill of Judgment and civil discourse)
- Knowledge-Rich Inquiry: Jon and Gary firmly assert their position in the "knowledge first" camp, arguing that deep critical thinking is domain specific. They share why "structure is liberating" when students are equipped with a strong base of historical facts.
- Teaching Civil Disagreement: Discover how separating the "judgment" question (Q4) allows students to practice the art of civil disagreement in a structured, reasoned way, even when addressing controversial historical topics.
Time-Stamped Topics Key moments in the discussion:
- 06:52 - The origin story and philosophical foundation of the Four Question Method (4QM Teaching).
- 10:41 - A detailed breakdown of the four questions: Narration, Interpretation, Explanation, and Judgment.
- 14:20 - Why 4QM Teaching finally decided to write a full US History curriculum.
- 21:45 - How Question 4 teaches the "art of civil disagreement" (and the related work of Natalie Wexler).
- 36:14 - The argument that critical thinking is entirely domain-specific in advanced fields.
- 52:09 - Simplifying the curriculum to reduce cognitive load with four transparent lesson types.