Industry Relations

This is Industry Relations, a podcast that is at the intersection of real estate and technology from an insider’s perspective. Hosted weekly by Rob Hahn (The Notorious ROB) and Greg Robertson.

Compass and Zillow Play Chicken 11/26/2025

Compass and Zillow Play Chicken The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview In this episode, Rob and Greg dive into the newly surfaced Zillow–Compass court documents, a leaked Zillow strategy plan, and Mike DelPrete’s analysis of the preliminary injunction hearing. They also discuss the broader market context—from the real cost of living in 2025 to generational tension—and debate whether the lawsuit will meaningfully change industry behavior. The conversation closes with predictions, stakes, and possible compromise paths between Compass and Zillow. Key Takeaways A “must-read” macro article kicks off the show. Rob discusses a Substack piece on the U.S. poverty line and how outdated metrics distort today’s economic reality. Zillow and housing affordability tie back into the industry. The leaked Zillow strat plan is unusually strong. Both hosts agree the internal document is one of the most robust strategic plans seen in real estate, showing detailed situational analysis and clear tactical pathways. MLSs should study its structure. Compass vs. Zillow: The PI hearing matters. Rob argues the preliminary injunction ruling may reshape industry norms more than the eventual trial. If Compass wins, Zillow may need to pivot fast. If Zillow wins, Compass may face recruiting and retention issues. DelPrete’s takeaway: “Nothing will change.” Greg leans toward this view, citing industry inertia. Rob disagrees, pointing to long-term structural shifts like MLS loss of compensation and NAR’s diminishing relevance. Broker exclusives and 3PM are the core battle. The debate centers on whether private/preview listings harm consumers or empower brokers. Greg doubts the model’s long-term viability; Rob sees competitive incentives that could drive proliferation. Potential compromise ideas emerge. The hosts float options such as removing Days on Zillow, hiding public price-change history, or creating a paid Zillow product for private listings. No clear middle ground exists yet. Predictions and a steak-dinner bet. Both tentatively lean toward Compass having a better storytelling advantage in court, though the outcome is far from certain. Links Connect with Rob and Greg Watch us on Our Sponsors: Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/39172225

MLS Emancipation? 11/19/2025

MLS Emancipation? The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview Rob and Greg break down what happened at NAR NXT in Houston — from the empty expo floor to major MLS–Association policy changes. Greg shares on-the-ground insights from meetings, parties, and conversations with MLS leaders, while Rob analyzes the strategic implications of NAR’s 18-point PAG recommendations and what he calls the “emancipation” of MLSs. They also discuss winners and losers of the policy shifts, potential impacts on associations, vendors, portals, and brokers, and tee up a future episode on NAR’s new strategic plan. Key Takeaways Expo Floor Shift: Major real estate brands were largely absent, and new vendors were mostly centralized in the REACH kiosk area. NAR’s pavilion took up a large portion of the floor. Tightened Meeting Access: Vendors and some MLS staff were denied entry to MLS policy roundtables, signaling increased NAR gatekeeping. Policy Changes = MLS Freedom: NAR repealed disciplinary guidelines and removed the requirement for MLS users to be association members, pushing authority to the local level. Rob argues this effectively removes NAR from the MLS business. Winners & Losers: Winners: Large MLSs, large brokers, possibly Zillow (depending on data access negotiations). Losers: State and local associations relying on mandatory membership; potentially Realtor.com as syndication leverage shifts. Associations Must Reinvent: Without mandatory membership, associations must create new value propositions and revenue paths. Strategic Plan Concerns: Rob calls NAR’s new strategic plan “a pile” of platitudes and plans a full breakdown in a future episode. Parties & Atmosphere: Rentspree, ICE, and others hosted strong events, but the conference felt less relevant overall with notable CEO absences. Connect with Rob and Greg Watch us on Our Sponsors: Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/39090885

NAR NXT Grab Bag 11/13/2025

Mutual customer? 11/05/2025

Organized Real Estate's GTM problem 10/29/2025

When Fine Print Hits the Fan 10/22/2025

When Fine Print Hits the Fan The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview In this episode, Rob and Greg dive into the controversy surrounding CRMLS’s End User License Agreement (EULA) and the debate over MLS data ownership. The discussion begins with updates in the MLS world that brought attention to how CRMLS’s EULA—originally updated for two-factor authentication—resurfaced older language asserting MLS ownership of listing data. Rob argues that this fundamental change to broker data rights was poorly communicated, while Greg defends CRMLS, emphasizing the operational benefits and the long-standing nature of the clause. The two debate whether brokers were properly informed, what this means for data copyright, and if MLSs should have done more outreach when the change occurred. Key Takeaways Origin of the Issue: CRMLS’s update around two-factor authentication drew attention to older language asserting MLS ownership of listing data. Miscommunication Fallout: Many brokers—and even industry insiders—were unaware of this language, leading to confusion and criticism. Refkin’s Role: Compass CEO Robert Reffkin’s public posts sparked renewed scrutiny, prompting industrywide debate about transparency and data rights. Ownership vs. Protection: Rob questions whether MLSs need to claim ownership to protect data; Greg argues it benefits brokers by organizing and monetizing data more effectively. Governance Concerns: Rob challenges whether MLS boards can alter members’ property rights without broader consent; Greg notes such changes are vetted by directors and attorneys. Communication Failure: Both agree MLSs must improve how they notify and educate brokers about major policy shifts. Potential Next Steps: Rob suggests bringing CRMLS’s Ed Zorn and an affected broker on a future episode to clarify the rationale and implications. Links Connect with Rob and Greg Watch us on Our Sponsors: Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/38737625

ZGPT 10/15/2025

How will the portals respond to the Compass-Anywhere deal? 10/08/2025

Toronto tales and more 10/01/2025

Compass Everyware 09/24/2025

The Mirror 09/17/2025

Housing remedies and Compass musings 09/10/2025

Give Me Some Knobs! 09/03/2025

Back to the future with Sub Agency? 08/27/2025

An Open Letter to Opendoor 08/21/2025

AI Octagon 08/13/2025

OK Boomer. 08/06/2025

Plans, within plans, within plans 07/31/2025

Plans, within plans, within plans The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! In this episode, Rob and Greg dive into Zillow’s legal strategy in its defense against Compass's lawsuit, focusing on Zillow’s surprising claim that it only facilitates a “single-digit” percentage of real estate transactions. They debate the strategic implications of this position—especially how it could undermine Zillow’s perception of power in the industry—and analyze the broader impact on listing presentations, MLS relationships, and competitors like Compass and Homes.com. They also preview the upcoming Inman Connect in San Diego and discuss potential industry sentiment and attendance given the market’s current challenges. Key Takeaways Zillow's Legal Strategy: Zillow argues it is not a monopoly, claiming it only facilitates a single-digit percentage of home transactions. Strategic Risk: Rob questions why Zillow would make this claim, suggesting it weakens their perceived power and brand strength in the industry. Agent Sales Impact: The claim could hurt Zillow's Premier Agent business by giving competitors a compelling narrative (“why pay for single-digit exposure?”). Compass Lawsuit Context: The lawsuit stems from Compass’s perception that Zillow’s policies harmed their three-phase marketing strategy and listing exposure. MLS Relationships: Rob and Greg wonder how MLSs might reevaluate their relationships with Zillow after this shift in positioning. eXp-Zillow Data Feed Deal: Rob questions why eXp is sending direct data feeds to Zillow when MLS feeds already exist. Inman Connect Preview: Greg expects a smaller, more introspective crowd due to market conditions. He plans to gather MLS sentiment on the ground. Industry Power Perception: Rob contends Zillow is still the most powerful entity in organized real estate—more than NAR post-clear cooperation—making its current legal stance all the more surprising. Connect with Rob and Greg Watch us on Our Sponsors: Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/37601440

Lawsuits, Listings & Listings Fees 07/23/2025

Vibe Buying 07/16/2025

Vibe Buying The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg tackle the thorny question of who should have access to real estate listing data. Prompted by a Wired article about college students using Zillow to assess classmates’ wealth, Rob argues that the real estate industry should move some listing details—like interior photos and price history—behind a broker-consumer relationship. Greg pushes back, defending the value of open data and the impossibility of cleanly separating legitimate buyers from “random voyeurs.” The conversation dives deep into VOW rules, privacy, and what it means to be a consumer in 2025. Key Takeaways Prompt for the Episode – A Wired article reveals that young people are using Zillow to snoop on classmates’ family wealth, raising privacy questions. Rob’s Proposal – Rob suggests moving data like days on market, interior photos, and price change history to the VOW feed instead of IDX. VOW vs. IDX – They revisit the 2006 DOJ/NAR settlement that created Virtual Office Websites and debate whether its definitions still work in 2025. Who Is a “Legitimate” Consumer? – Rob proposes that anyone willing to speak to an agent qualifies, while Greg argues that even dreamers browsing for years could be future buyers. Advertising vs. Research Data – They attempt to draw a distinction between marketing information meant to attract interest and data meant to inform a buyer’s decision. Barriers and Incentives – Greg warns that placing obstacles in front of consumers—even just requiring a lead form—might diminish site traffic and engagement. Portals and Traffic Obsession – Discussion of how Zillow, Realtor.com, and Homes.com measure success by traffic volume, and why reducing public data might not align with their incentives. Consumer Privacy vs. Industry Benefit – Rob argues that the industry has no obligation to serve voyeurs, while Greg questions whether we can—or should—attempt to limit access. A Potential VOW Framework – The episode closes with a thought experiment: Should consumers need to name an agent (or form a relationship) before accessing detailed listing info? Links Connect with Rob and Greg Watch us on Our Sponsors: Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/37420075

Monopoly Schmonopoly 07/02/2025

Monopoly Schmonopoly The Industry Relations Podcast is now available on your favorite podcast player! Overview In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg unpack the lawsuit Compass filed against Zillow over its ZLAS (Zillow Listing Agreement Standard) policy. They debate the strength of Compass’s legal claims, the language cited in the complaint, and what the alleged behind-the-scenes meetings reveal about Zillow’s influence in the real estate industry. Rob argues that Zillow is exercising monopoly power—even if it’s not illegal—while Greg pushes back on whether that power is absolute or harmful. Key Takeaways Compass Lawsuit Against Zillow – Compass has sued Zillow over ZLAS, and Rob and Greg break down what the complaint says, especially around alleged comments from Zillow executives. Redfin’s Role in the Lawsuit – The lawsuit describes a phone call between Redfin CEO Glenn Kelman and Compass’s Robert Reffkin, which raises questions about Redfin’s alignment or neutrality. Allegations from the Zillow Meeting – The complaint claims Zillow executives said they would “not allow” Compass to have listings that aren’t on Zillow. Rob questions how MLSs will interpret that language. Zillow’s Relationship to MLSs – Rob and Greg debate whether Zillow is stepping into a policy-making role that could create long-term tension with MLSs. Monopoly vs. Illegal Monopoly – Rob insists Zillow is a monopoly in terms of influence, while Greg questions whether that matters if they haven’t broken any laws. Private Listing Networks as Leverage – Rob suggests that large brokerages should consider creating private listing networks to provoke offers or concessions from Zillow. MLS and NAR Dynamics – The conversation revisits the lack of MLS policy leadership from NAR and whether groups like CMLS can step up in its place. Consumer Perception of Real Estate – Greg ends by cautioning that all this infighting could be harmful to public trust, as evidenced by critical reader comments in mainstream news outlets. Connect with Rob and Greg Watch us on Our Sponsors: Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/37230475

Tori Amos? 06/25/2025

The thing about incentives 06/18/2025

NAR Midyear Recap and then some... 06/11/2025

NAR Midyear Recap and then some... In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg recap the 2025 NAR Midyear Meetings in Washington, D.C., discussing key industry developments, MLS policy changes, and behind-the-scenes dynamics. Topics include the repeal of the commingling ban, updates to NAR’s controversial 10-5 speech policy, and ongoing MLS consolidation. They also cover vendor presence, association politics, and speculation around leadership changes in CMLS. Key Takeaways Compass “Protest” at Midyear – Greg recounts organizing a publicity stunt in front of Compass’s hotel to promote Tuesday.com Repeal of Co-mingling Ban – Discussion on how NAR’s removal of the commingling restriction could impact listing syndication and MLS relevance. 10-5 Policy Changes – Rob and Greg unpack the revision of NAR’s hate speech rule, its political implications, and the proposal for a “conduct unbecoming” clause. MLS Consolidation – A growing theme from the meetings was consolidation, with T3 data showing Bright MLS now leading in subscriber count. CMLS Leadership Transition – With Denee Evans stepping down, the episode explores possible successors and whether CMLS and RESO should consider a merger. Policy Governance Shifts – Signs point to NAR possibly stepping back from MLS policy-making, sparking conversation about which organization might take that role. Vendor and Trade Show Insights – Observations about reduced vendor presence and the challenges for newer tech companies trying to break into the space. Affordability and Market Outlook – Brief discussion on macro issues like tariffs, political shifts, and whether the real estate market is moving toward a buyer’s market. LInks Connect with Rob and Greg Rob’s Website Greg’s Website Watch us on Our Sponsors: Cotality Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/36946310

Buyer's Market Fever Dream 06/04/2025

Buyer's Market Fever Dream In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg run a thought experiment: What if we’re entering a true buyer’s market? They walk through ten major industry topics—from antitrust litigation to portals, AI, and MLS relevance—and analyze how each might shift if buyers suddenly gained the upper hand. Along the way, they debate policy, technology, and market psychology, drawing connections between historical trends and current market signals. Watch us on Links Key Takeaways Antitrust & Legal Landscape – Discussion of how a buyer’s market might (or might not) affect current and future antitrust lawsuits in real estate. Government Regulation – Exploration of potential political reactions, including pressure on corporate landlords, affordability policy, or even renewed interest in rent control. Tech-Enabled Brokerages – Examination of whether brokerages like Redfin, Compass, and eXp gain or lose advantage when the market shifts toward buyers. iBuyers & Institutional Activity – Rob and Greg assess whether a buyer’s market helps or hurts companies like Opendoor and investor-focused strategies. Portals & Exclusive Inventory – Deep dive into how platforms like Zillow and Homes.com may adapt, and whether exclusive listings could gain ground. AI & Automation – Consideration of how AI could enable cheaper, more scalable buyer representation services—and who might benefit. Consumer Trust – Debate over whether a buyer’s market could rebuild trust in the industry or simply reduce agent count, leaving higher-quality professionals. DIY Real Estate – Why self-service homebuying remains unlikely to surge, even with market power shifting toward buyers. Industry Consolidation – Prediction that competitive pressure could drive further brokerage and vendor consolidation. MLS & Association Relevance – Analysis of whether MLSs become more or less important in a buyer’s market, especially in the context of exclusives and policy enforcement. Connect with Rob and Greg Rob’s Website Greg’s Website Our Sponsors: Cotality Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/36843380

Cui bono? 05/28/2025

Cui bono? In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg analyze Zillow’s recently released ZLAS policy language and debate whether it reflects a shift in Zillow’s priorities. They discuss the implications of allowing broker direct feeds, the enforcement challenges around delayed marketing, and whether Zillow’s current stance can still be considered “consumer first.” The conversation also explores how MLSs and major brokerages are interpreting ZLAS and how this policy intersects with Clear Cooperation rules and VOW/IDX frameworks. Watch us on Links Howard Hanna in open rebellion against Clear Cooperation Policy - https://www.inman.com/2025/05/23/howard-hanna-in-open-rebellion-against-clear-cooperation-policy/ Zillow's ZLAS: Make Zillow Great Again - Hoby Hanna don't like the rules - https://www.vendoralley.com/2025/05/27/hoby-hanna-dont-like-the-rules/ Key Takeaways Zillow’s ZLAS Policy Language – The official policy now allows listings to be submitted via MLS or broker syndication feeds, raising questions about enforcement and intent. Broker Compliance and Enforcement – Rob and Greg explore whether Zillow has the capacity or systems in place to enforce ZLAS, and how it compares to MLS-style rule enforcement. Direct Broker Feeds as a Loophole – The inclusion of broker syndication feeds in the policy language could enable firms like Compass to bypass ZLAS restrictions. VOW vs. IDX Access – Discussion on how Zillow’s VOW-powered listing visibility may conflict with its public consumer-first messaging. Local MLS Rule Conflicts – ZLAS policy explicitly overrides local MLS or state-level rules that allow extended delayed marketing, creating potential legal and operational conflicts. Marketplace Power Shift – Zillow’s self-enforced policy is viewed as a signal of its growing authority in the real estate ecosystem, independent of MLS governance. Connect with Rob and Greg Rob’s Website Greg’s Website Our Sponsors: Cotality Notorious VIP The Giant Steps Job Board Production and Editing Services by /episode/index/show/industryrelations/id/36741040

Full Circle 05/21/2025

Be Careful What You Wish For 05/14/2025

Back to books 05/07/2025

I don't think that word means what you think it means... 05/01/2025

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