Ep. 30 | The Power of "It Depends" | My interview with Melissa Leach | Functional Anatomy Expert

Ever met someone and instantly thought, "Yup, we're destined to be yoga BFFs?" 

 

That's how I felt back in April 2019 when I attended the Baptiste Institute's Assisting Course in San Francisco, led by the amazing Melissa Leach!

 

Melissa is not only a total bad@$$ yoga teacher but also down-to-earth, knowledgeable, and highly experienced in her understanding of yoga, functional anatomy, trauma, and mental health.

 

During that course, she introduced me to the world of assists in teaching yoga – a game-changing approach that focuses on co-creation between student and teacher, rather than just correcting or adjusting.

 

Fast forward to today, and I'm thrilled to share that Melissa is joining me on this week's episode of the Luminous Recovery Yoga Podcast! 🎉

 

Get ready to dive into:

• Melissa's unique approach to teaching yoga

• The power of "it depends" when understanding the human body

• How pain can be trauma surfacing in the body

 

Want more of Melissa? Find her on Instagram and check out her own podcast, Primal Performance Podcast.

 

If you enjoy this episode with Melissa, please like, comment, and share! Your support means the world to me.

 

With love,

~Kari

 

Transcripts:

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Interview with Melissa
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Kari Doherty: [00:00:00] Thank you for listening to the Luminous Recovery Yoga Podcast, hosted by Kari Doherty. The views and opinions expressed here are strictly those of the person who gave them. Take what you like and leave the rest. These views and opinions do not represent any specific 12 step program. Only my experience, strength, and hope in recovering from the dise of addiction and codependency.

If you'd like to learn more, please visit my website at www dot luminous recovery yoga dot. Hello, my friend. Thank you for listening to the Luminous Recovery Yoga Podcast. This is Carrie, and I just wanted to take a minute to tell you how excited I am to present this interview to you with Melissa Leach.

Melissa is someone that I met many years ago at a Baptiste Institute training. She is a phenomenal yoga teacher and functional anatomy enthusiast. In this episode, you'll hear all about what Melissa is up to and why [00:01:00] our favorite phrase is "it depends". So I hope that you enjoy this episode. If you like it, please feel free to share it.

Give us a comment and subscribe to my channel and over to Melissa's channel and support the work that we're doing in the world. It really helps to have people like you supporting the work and to keep spreading the word about good information. So with that being said onto the episode, 

Hello, Melissa. This is so exciting. Sometimes I have nightmares that I'm in an interview and I forget to press record. I've actually had this nightmare where I'm like in the interview and I'm like, I gotta press record. So I press record and, 

Melissa Leach: And I see the little, little button. 

Kari Doherty: Just the little button. I'm so happy to be here with Melissa Leach.

This is truly it's an honor to know you and to be friends with you, but also to consider you my precious, precious yoga [00:02:00] teacher. So I wanna introduce Melissa Leach. Melissa, say hello to everyone. 

Melissa Leach: Hi everybody. Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm honored and very grateful to be, to be here and to be with you.

Kari Doherty: Absolutely. I wanna just give everyone a little intro of how I met Melissa. So, I met Melissa in 2019. I was taking a. Assisting course through the Baptist Institute in San Francisco. So I flew from Portland to San Francisco to take this course, and Melissa was the lead trainer of this Baptist Institute assisting course.

And it was phenomenal. I just remember being like, this woman is so freaking cool and I really liked Melissa. And so I went home and immediately started following Melissa on Instagram and Facebook and then you know, followed you along just as we do with the people that we admire through social media.

And then recently Melissa released a course [00:03:00] called the Queuing Course. And I was like, oh, that's so badass. I'm gonna take that course. So I go to sign up for Melissa's course, and I notice that Melissa still had stock photography on her website of some other woman. And I was like, who? What is going on?

Who is this a woman? And then I was like, oh, Melissa needs a little help with her website, so I. Privately messaged Melissa and I was like, Hey, you probably don't know me, but I took a course from you years ago and I think you're really cool and I would love to trade coaching to help you on your website.

And Melissa wrote back, this is what you exactly said. You said, wow.

And then you said, yeah, that'd be great. So that butted a wonderful friendship. Melissa and I actually meet every week to talk about yoga and to talk about running an online business. And really, I think that we coach each [00:04:00] other. Mm-hmm. 

Melissa Leach: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. It is such a, i, I vivid, I actually vividly remember you from the assisting course because you left an Absolutely.

Like I remember just in the interaction of that weekend, cuz that was back in the day when it was a two day course. I real, I remember talking to you and the questions that you asked were very, like, they were very insightful, and your presence and interaction both with me and the other people was very real.

And there was something where I'm like, I actually really enjoy this person. Wow. I didn't because there are Oh, abso, absolutely. And so when you reached out, like it had been a while, I mean, 2019, it like, you know, like last year? No. I mean, I know it's been longer than that. Mm-hmm. But I, I was actually, I was like, I totally remember this person.

Wow. So 

Kari Doherty: I didn't know that. See, I have this assumption when I'm in a group of people, although in some ways I stick out like a sore thumb, that, that nobody notices me. Like there's that tendency to believe that. [00:05:00] I am unnoticeable when really it is almost the opposite. That becomes true. 

Melissa Leach: No, you left, you left a very positive and very real.

I'm like, I, I very much like authentic and real interactions and it, it, that was the impression that was, was left. No, like just a, that is a 

Kari Doherty: being alarm. I didn't know that. I I really didn't. So thank you for Thank you for saying that. Well that's, 

Melissa Leach: that's also why I was open to, you know, the, the, when you reached out, cuz you know, pe people do and so when you reached out, I was like, I, that left a mark and that allowed for 

Kari Doherty: that.

So it wasn't just like, yeah, my website needs work. I'll just throw this one a 

Melissa Leach: bone. Oh no, totally. It's because, it's because of who you are. I mean like, listen, I'm lot of marketing in my website is not one. 

Kari Doherty: Oh, that's so great. [00:06:00] Thank you for saying that. That just means so much. I guess I never stopped to ask like, Melissa, did you remember me?

Because I remembered you. That's just so funny. And that just is so my own psychosis of how I'm like, I am very unmemorable and people are like, actually, you're wearing yellow right now. You stick out. Like, there's just something that I do to myself where I minimize the impact that I have. So thank you for saying that.

You traveled with the Baptist Institute for a while. That was like a, a big part of your life. What, what did you do for the Baptist Institute? 

Melissa Leach: I did a couple things for the institute. It was, I, I trained with Baron and the Institute for a lot of years a lot of years. And I was fortunate to be the programs director of the Baptist Foundation, which was the nonprofit arm.

And through that, Nonprofit arm. We launched two programs that are very near and dear to me. Because it's through yoga, being able to reach [00:07:00] groups of people that might not ever set foot in a yoga studio has always been something that's very important. And so we developed the Unstoppable Program in conjunction with some amazing people.

I partnered with Karen Terone, who's an just an amazing force of nature. Mm-hmm. And with her, we co-facilitated and led the unstoppable training, which was bringing the tools of yoga to people who work with children primarily to school teachers, but open to coach, just anyone. Mm-hmm. Who works with, with kids in a very, not in like, Hey, teach an afterschool one hour yoga class, but like, how actually do you take these parts and pieces and bring it into the classroom as a normal part of the day?

And then the other part was being able to work with Sean Silvera and Dan Nevins with the Unbreakable Program, which was geared towards veterans active duty and first responders in a very similar fashion and mm-hmm. So I was able to do that. And then also on the [00:08:00] institute side, was very fortunate to be able to go lead programs, including the assisting course, the the teacher's course, and then also the anatomy course.

It was Art of True North Alignment at the time. Mm-hmm. So I was able to scoot around and, oh, I also led, at the time we had a 200 hour teacher training program called Expand Your Power, and so was able to lead that at a lot of different studios around the country as well. So. 

Kari Doherty: Cool. 

Melissa Leach: It was fun. It was a great time.

Very grateful. I'm very grateful to Baron, to the Institute to the Foundation for that time. Absolutely 

Kari Doherty: appreciate, I really appreciate the time I spent in the Baptist Institute trainings. I mean, honestly, it, it really made me the yoga teacher that I wanted to be. So I, I really do value everything I got out of Baptist yoga.

And so, you know, being a certified Baptist teacher, to me that means something. 

Melissa Leach: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yep. 

Kari Doherty: When did you start practicing yoga? Like I'm, I want a little bit of a taste of your [00:09:00] yoga journey. Like, were you the kind of person who was like, I always wanted to be a yoga teacher, or were you Oh, someone who went in a little bit more kicking and screaming, I'm a kicker and screamer.

I was like, I don't want it. And it just kept coming back. So I'm curious what got you into yoga and, and were, was there resistance? 

Melissa Leach: I'm, I would, I guess I would. For in a lot of areas, describe myself as somewhat of a person. Very. I'm skeptical. How about that? I'm very skeptical. Mm-hmm. With a lot of things.

I have always enjoyed like exercising and working out and have been in the fitness industry for probably just as long as, maybe a little longer than. Than yoga. And so I was like, I mean this is, back in the day, it was like kickboxing and lifting and mm-hmm. Any kind of group exercise class that I could do to push myself.

I was doing, and at the time I was out in California actually. And I like to say that I started practicing when I [00:10:00] was two because I've been practicing for over 25 years. So we'll just leave that at that a 

Kari Doherty: little longer. You day over 25, babe. 

Melissa Leach: I greatly appreciate that. Okay. I went to, you know, started hearing about like this hot yoga thing and so I just picked a place and I went and I wore, I remember wearing light gray, I mean light gray leggings and showed up and it was a full eye.

Cause I was like, 90 minutes, I can do 90 minutes. It was a 90 minute class and it was the, I left looking like I peed myself and it was just, Awful. I was like, so that's the yoga thing and I hate it and I'm not going back. Mm-hmm. And then I went back, I ended up going back and I don't know why I just, I decided I was gonna try it again and I went and I ended up going to another studio.

I never went back to that studio. Actually, the room smell like there was just so much about it that I did. It was not a enjoyable, or 

Kari Doherty: it's a distinguish those things [00:11:00] like was it a bad class or do I hate yoga? You know, and it's really, those could get very confusing. 

Melissa Leach: Well, and here's the thing, and I guess as someone who's trained teachers, like, what I would like to say to all of the teachers who might be listening is, I don't remember the teacher at all.

I don't remember if it was a man. I don't remember if it was a woman. I don't remember. I don't, I don't even remember if there was another person in the room. I'm assuming some, someone else was in the room because mm-hmm. We did things. So I really do not remember the teacher. And so, All of us who feel so responsible with our classes.

Good point. Know, yeah. Know that like, that it was the class, it was not the, it had nothing to do with the teacher. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I ended up going to a Vinyasa class, power Vinyasa class cooler. It was a, it was a, it was a warm studio. It was a heated studio, but it wasn't hot. And I liked it. It was fun.

It was there, as it turns out, there was no music. It was just a vinyasa flow class. And I had a great time. And so I [00:12:00] kept going back and I made it Cause I had heard it, just heard. And I didn't know the specifics. I just heard it was good for me. And it was a good compliment to the other things that I was doing.

So I wouldn't say that I like dove into it when I was hooked and I, I had spiritual awakening. I just, like, I liked it. It was a great compliment to what I was doing. Yeah. And the way I got into it was, it was a good workout. And then the way I got into teaching is I eventually moved to New York and the place that I Started practicing at I liked the people.

Mm-hmm. And I started to ask, I heard they might be doing a teacher training that fell through and they referred me out to a weekend certification for Yoga Fit. And I was like, that doesn't seem like enough education, but mm-hmm. Okay. And then I did a couple levels with yoga. And I think that's when I started to look for bigger trainings and I ended up reading Baron's Book Journey Into Power.

And I was like, oh, this has, [00:13:00] yeah, well it just had all of the, like you would, I would find a 200 hour teacher training. And I was like, okay. The physical part of that resonates. I'm not fully, there's some other components that maybe I didn't feel comfortable with. And Baron's book was kind of the, the whole mm-hmm.

Picture. And as it turned out at the time, he was leading a level one in Mela, New York. And I was like, okay, I usually don't travel for yoga teacher trainings, but this is in driving distance, so I'll go. And I did the hundred, I did the level one, and that was enough at the time to let, let me start teaching.

I still didn't feel like that was enough. And that set me 

Kari Doherty: on. Melissa, did you have a breakthrough at Level. I did, 

Melissa Leach: I had a great time at level one and this is me, like, this is not like, I don't want anyone to think that this is coming off as like a judgment against yoga or the trains. I just didn't, that wasn't my experience.

It was a great [00:14:00] experience overall. It was a great experience, but I wouldn't say I walked out of there a totally different person. I think a lot of people I did level 

Kari Doherty: one blew my head open. I had no idea what I was getting into. Yeah. And it was funny cuz I'm a nut, I'm like a nutty student. Like if you tell me I'm gonna have a breakthrough, I'm like, oh, okay.

What day will I, what time? I was terrified the whole week to go to the bathroom because I was like, what if I go to the bathroom and I miss my breakthrough? And so that just like added another, 

Melissa Leach: that's amazing. 

Kari Doherty: What if I miss, what if I miss the breakthrough when I'm on the toilet? Like, you know, so it's just created a lot of anxiety.

But I did, I had a few breakthroughs that week. So, you know, I think level one is like, it's like what you want from it, you know? I wanted a breakthrough. 

Melissa Leach: I, you know, but this is, I wanted one and I went through, so it started me on the path of doing level one, level two, level three, fit to lead [00:15:00] assistant.

Like anything I could get my hands on with the institute I did willingly. But I would say there, and I would watch people get up at the microphone and be like, And I had had this breakthrough and I'm crying and it changed my life. And I was like, what am I doing wrong? It was so like, I was like, what?

Where's mine? And I'm going through these trainings, doing it wrong. I'm, I'm not, 

Kari Doherty: I had my level one and two with Paige and I actually went up to page after, like day three, and I was like, I said to her, I'm not crying the way that other people are here. Am I missing something? Am I not doing? And she was like, well, are you getting something from the work?

I was like, yeah. She was like, then don't worry about it. 

Melissa Leach: Everybody's, everybody's process looks different. 

Kari Doherty: And I was like, they must be getting some more money's worth because they're [00:16:00] a mess. Maybe I'm not getting my money's worth because I am not a puddle. And so, yeah. But you know, it's interesting how like, Yoga teacher.

I mean, I like, do they do that at other types of trainings? Of just other exercises in general where like people get real emotional and cry all the time? I don't know. Cause I haven't been 

Melissa Leach: to other ones, but I've been to like Landmark. I've done Landmark and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. And it's similar cuz I, like, I, it's funny cause I did Landmark after Baptiste.

Mm-hmm. And I was sitting there, I was like, right. And I was sitting there watching similar things and I'm like, well here I am again years later not doing Landmark right. Because I'm not having, but they all cumulatively as I sit here today, like kind of looking back on all that, have all. It's been a cumulative effect.

Mm-hmm. Where I wouldn't, I just, I wouldn't be the teacher, I wouldn't be the person that I am today without all of those experiences. Right. And it didn't happen in one transformational moment up at the mic as much as that's what I wanted. Right. Cuz that's what I thought it needed [00:17:00] to look like. Mm-hmm.

And forcing it, you know, as, as I'm like, oh, if I had knew now or if I knew then what I know now, there would've been a little bit more freedom around it. And like, I'm not, I'm not doing level one or level two or level three are fit to lead wrong. It's just part, it's just the process. Right, right. And that's my thing.

It's like, and I, you know, if any of my people who have coached me, In the gym, they'll probably, they'll appreciate this, but like, I don't do anything fast. Like there is nothing like big and explosive about me. Like I very slow and very steady. And it's funny as, as I'm, the connection that I'm making is like, oh, it shows up everywhere.

Kari Doherty: Right? How you do anything is how you do everything. I really do believe that. I, I do see that that plays out, you know? Totally. So so keep going. You went through all the levels. You, you found a calling through this particular method? 

Melissa Leach: Yeah, I found a calling through this particular [00:18:00] method and, and I started teaching and then it became just something that I enjoyed doing and I don't necessarily, I know a lot of yoga teachers that I train are very, I love their passion and they want to make people's, they wanna improve people's lives, make an impact.

And I just, it was fun. Mm-hmm. And I loved the practice and I loved teaching and it all just kind of worked together. And so I started only teaching a handful of classes as we probably all do. And I swung the pendulum swung too far the other way where I think I was teaching, like at one point I think I was up to like, I don't know, 14, 17 classes a week.

Which has 

Kari Doherty: its place almost sick of the sound of your own voice at that point. 

Melissa Leach: Oh. The classes where I would teach five or six classes a day that, you know, that sixth class you were just like, I'm so sorry that you guys have to listen to me cause I [00:19:00] can't stand myself. Totally, 

Kari Doherty: totally 

Melissa Leach: get that. So, and then it just became a natural evolution to like, I remember the first teacher training I led.

I was actually very, well, I was very nervous because I was like, who am I to lead this training? I really felt like I had to be teaching for like 25 years before I had enough like experience. Mm-hmm. And knowledge to share with people who were getting into the profession. It, it was a big, that was a, that was a probably my most challenging shift was going from yoga teacher to someone who trains other yoga teachers.

Mm-hmm. Cause I took that very, and I still take that very seriously. 

Kari Doherty: That's actually a great segue into my next question, which is tell me about your experience training yoga teachers and what are like some of the top things that you think new yoga teachers need to know when they're getting started.

Oh, 

Melissa Leach: I, it's one of [00:20:00] my favorite things is teaching and Teaching and working with yoga teachers who have such a passion for whatever their reason is for getting into teaching, whatever their reason is for sharing the practice is such a amazing opportunity so that we have so many different entry points for people to gain access to this practice.

Because at the end of the day, one of the things that I know to be true is there are a lot of people who won't go to a yoga studio, but there are a lot of people who are natural teachers who love the practice, who come in contact with those people outside of the yoga studio, who can still teach in a different arena, in a very powerful way.

And that's something that I have always been really passionate about. I working with, with yoga teachers is not easy for sure. And there's a lot of things that I think it's important that we're aware, aware of both in working with yoga teachers and actually, and. In the same way that all [00:21:00] yoga teachers shouldn't, should know.

I think there's, it can be very challenging in that there are a lot of preconceived notions about what a yoga teacher should be and what are, what goes into that. I think there's also a side of it where social media has created a certain narrative around yoga poses and how you share the practice.

That's, 

Kari Doherty: tell me about that pretty narrative, cuz I agree with you. Well, 

Melissa Leach: it's pretty detrimental. Like you see, we'll start with just the physicality of it. Mm-hmm. And it's like, if you wanna get into this pose, All you need to do is this, this, and this. And it's like, well, no, because a lot of the poses, there's, there's actually no connection to the functional anatomy.

And, and a lot of people in the industry are like, functional anatomy is an overused term. I would agree in certain arenas, but not in the yoga arena because we don't teach it functionally. Mm-hmm. There's, you know, there's, there is not a lot of these poses where we're like, just practice and all is coming.

Well, not that pose if you're [00:22:00] a certain body type. Right. Not that pose if you have a certain bone structure. Not, and, and that there's nothing wrong with my little T-rex arms. Yeah. Like, I can't bind, I can chatter onga like a champ. I love, like that's my favorite pose. But, A, a bind, it's yoga's not gonna give me longer arms.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so that's gonna show up. That shows up in just even like a simple twist bringing like in revolved Crescent lunch, bringing my elbow outside of my knee. My, my arm bones aren't that long. And so reaching my elbow outside of my knee actually requires me to go into quite a bit of lateral flexion in the side, in my, in my spine.

And then you're adding rotation on that when we talk about functional anatomy. Can I, and alignment. Can I get my elbow outside of my knee? Yes. Is it actually the healthiest way to move my body? No. And that's where disconnect is. Some of the other narratives are have to do with using this practice to like, [00:23:00] Someone.

And that's not what really the aim of yoga may be. Restorative yoga, but like really yoga as a spiritual practice is not really what it's all about. There is a lot in, I, I think that comes from maybe social, social media or society too, uhhuh, where there's a lot of spiritual bypassing, like love light and everything.

You know, just do go to yoga every day and it's gonna change your life or make everything better. So those are the types of things that I think we're working against and like, I don't wanna say working against, it's the challenge that we have in leading teacher trainings is actually to strip all of that away and take a look at this practice, the spiritual practice at the heart of it, and then through you have poses that are the vehicles.

For people to gain access to these bigger bene, bigger perceived benefits or practices. Right. Let's call 'em practices. 

Kari Doherty: So when you talk [00:24:00] about the spirituality of the practice, like what would be some particular aspects that you're pointing to that brings the spirituality? Hmm. 

Melissa Leach: I think it's part of it, you know, is the connection to, let's say, paton's Lin path, where we have where you have a, like a set pathway to explore who you are and then who you are in connection with the world.

It is, it is, you know, we do know that there's, it's a practice to be able to calm the fluctuations of the mind, right. Not necessarily to relax. The spiritual practices I that, that yoga offers really are tools to help us navigate the challenges of being a human being and the human experience. I think the human experience.

And so when you look at the yamas and the niyamas, when you actually put those into practice, so right. Nonviolence. A [00:25:00] lot of us are like, well, obviously I don't go around punching people in the face. But it's like, well, what about the words that you use when you're thinking about yourself? Yes. What about it shows up in like your approach to even your practice?

Like, we wanna go super simple. You know, are you using the practice as an escape? Are you, are you trying to twist yourself? I used to use this practice as a way to not beat myself up, but like beat out some frustrations and definitely it wasn't as a way to deal and go into the heart of maybe what was bothering me.

It was a way to, to like dissociate from it. Like the harder that, so it was like, I got really good, one of my favorite things is doing like double chaturangas. Like I, so I'm good at that now. But was that like, was that a practice of a hemsa? Right, right. Questionable. And we can look at the deeper aspects of each of, you know, the yamas and the niyamas to have some difficult conversations.

To really [00:26:00] look at, you know, like I would challenge that even in our conversations around alignment, yoga, alignment and teaching the physical, physical part of it. Are you rooted in these yamas and the niyamas that we kind of superficially refer to when 

Kari Doherty: we're teaching? Right, right. You know, it's interesting cuz I've also trained teachers and have done, you know, teacher trainings and one of the things that I also caution new teachers against is the, the idea that you have to bring all of that into a 60 minute class.

Like the idea that your class has to be, you know, anatomically accurate, spiritually deep. You should be quoting the yoga sutures. You should be throwing in some Sanskrit you should be, you know, and, and I feel like why can't each of those things actually be separate? Mm-hmm. You know, like why can't the yoga practice with the poses be the poses and.

Meditation, be meditation and Sanskrit be Sanskrit and the niyamas and the self-inquiry work. And you know, [00:27:00] I, I sometimes feel like there's this urge that in a 60 minute yoga class, we have to shove it all in and put it all in in order for it to be a good class or a meaningful class or, you know. And that's actually one of the things that I get frustrated with in a class is sometimes I feel like there's just like a jam pack of trying to add it all in.

Mm-hmm. And then I feel like I'm having spirituality imposed upon me, you know, so sometimes it's a balance of like, you know, what are we doing in a 60 minute yoga class, or a 30 minute yoga class, or a 20 minute practice, you know? Mm-hmm. And does it all have to be, like, in your opinion, does it all have to come through that one?

Melissa Leach: No, because if we share like yoga's so broad and so deep, you could very easily teach yoga without teaching poses. The problem is we try to teach yoga by only teaching the poses. Hmm. And there's no, like, there's no heart, [00:28:00] there's no connection to the spiritual practices other than like, like superficial random sayings that we've heard.

Right, right, right. So I do think as a yoga teacher, you should have these different pillars that you're versed in, but you're not going to. Like, that would be, and I've done this where where I'm the worst is with anatomy because I love it so much. And especially if I lead a teacher training weekend where I, it's the anatomy weekend.

The next couple classes that I teach for general population are so anatomy focused. It's like a fire hose to the face and it's like, While some people might find it interesting, there has to be a balance. Right. And it's like, I think you, what you're saying is very valid in that we don't have to do all the things all at once.

Right. But we wanna be very masterful and very intentional in incorporating bits and pieces. It's like we're responsible for having all of this knowledge and going through the [00:29:00] weeds and going through the confusion so that we can put out the most intentional, well-planned buffet, right. That our student chooses from.

Right. Just, I think what's happening, and you said it was okay to be a little, we're edgy here. We're a little edgy. There's a lot of really crappy buffets that are being put out. Mm-hmm. And for whatever reason I think our job is just to offer up the. Well thought out, well-informed buffet. Mm-hmm. And then leave it up to our students that they're gonna put together the most perfect plate from that buffet.

Kari Doherty: Right, right. I, you know, I, I think there is also this tendency with newer yoga teachers that if you don't have the most incredible, miraculous, deep, spiritual, impeccable thing to say that maybe you shouldn't teach. And I, I know that for myself, when I started teaching classes, I tried to just stay quiet until I actually felt like I had something genuine to say, because I didn't wanna just start imparting [00:30:00] wisdom or spirituality when I, I, it wasn't natural, you know?

So I also think that some of those things come with time and experience where you feel like you have something to add in that arena. 

Melissa Leach: You just hit something very important on the head. I think that, I don't even know if it's for new, maybe all, all teachers like learning to teach yoga. This process isn't easy.

It is challenging and it is okay for it to be challenging, and it's okay for there to be a lot of information that maybe you don't necessarily wanna n learn. But at the end of the day, we've chosen this as our profession, and I use that word very intentionally. Mm-hmm. For some, I guess it is a hobby, but like, think about why people are coming to yoga.

Like if they're coming to relieve stress or they're coming to deal with certain things, if they're coming for health reasons, that begs the question, shouldn't we be versed in those [00:31:00] areas? If we're gonna be like, yes, yoga's gonna relax you, or yoga, which it could, it could be a result, like, yoga's gonna help you with your stress, or yoga's going to give you this benefit.

What are you basing off of that? Can you cite different sources? To back that up or are you just repeating something you read online in like a blog, which is not a quality source of information, right. Or you know, I think it's, we, we look and I, I remember the, I spoke once at the microphone at level one and it was actually legitimately to ask Baron where like, the best ever yoga teacher tool toolbox was coming.

Like, where is the, like, what is it? The, the, the easy button. Like that was the, where's the toolkit and where's that packet 

Kari Doherty: that I was supposed to get on the, where's, 

Melissa Leach: where's the manual? That makes me [00:32:00] just like, you didn't wanna miss your transformation, but you didn't wanna go to the bathroom so you wouldn't miss it.

I was looking for the, That the, the steps and if I follow the steps, cuz I am kind of a linear thinker at times. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But if I follow the steps, then I will be an amazing yoga teacher. It's not that, I mean, I, it's taken me years and years and years and years to get to have a certain handle on anatomy to get, to have a certain handle on, I think on it's 

Kari Doherty: exposing yourself to people as well.

Like, I didn't, I mean, sometimes it just takes seeing bodies in front of you to know how to talk to them, you know? Right. And I know that you've mentioned this before and what, in our, you know, what the work that we do together, which is that like if you Google Warrior two, you're gonna see a bunch of images of the same type of person.

Melissa Leach: Mm-hmm It's the same. Yeah. It. It's, I'm, I'm pausing [00:33:00] because there's a lot around that, and it's one area where I think it's very important for those of us who are yoga teachers, for those of us who, who have chosen this as a profession, to recognize the harm that we have done and the harm that continues to be done, where this, in fact, the way that it's taught is often not an inclusive practice, right?

We sit there and we're like, here's the shape, right? Here's the posture, and if you can't get into that, then you're less than and you need modifications. Ooh, let's talk 

Kari Doherty: about that. That's one of my favorite things that you talk about, which is, well, let's pitch the word 

Melissa Leach: modification. Well, it, because it indicates that this posture.

Is the ideal. The thing is, is that posture has been centralized around, I guess we just name it, is white, very splendor thin, hypo [00:34:00] hyper mobile people. We're centralizing that as a should be what? It's not as representative of general population. What it doesn't take into account are people's trauma, mental health, stress, chronic pain limb length.

Limb length, their hydration status. When they walk in the room, they're, they're, have they recovered? Are they sleeping it? And like, we're like, the best thing is, no. I wanna be very careful on how I say this is, I think with yoga, we, we can't get away with it. In like the fitness industry. We do that. And that's a whole different podcast.

In yoga, we, we hide it behind this curtain of spirituality. Hmm. It's a spiritual practice. And these poses are like ancient. Well, no they're not. No they're not. No, they're not. Therefore, they are not ancient. Right. And they're not because I believe that the [00:35:00] heart of yoga, right, the spiritual aspect of yoga as a practice is accessible for everyone.

It's the poses that aren't. Yeah. And I think we have done as yoga teachers when PE when there's a whole bunch of people, what we wanna recognize, there's a whole lot of people who won't step foot into a yoga studio. And it's not, it's not over the, like, there's lots of different reasons, but for the people who are like, I'm not flexible enough to do yoga.

And we're like, yes you are. No they're not. Not the way some of us are teaching it. Right. And like to own that. And maybe if you believe that they are flexible enough to do yoga, then change the way you teach so that it makes sense with how the body's meant to move. I love 

Kari Doherty: that. I love that. So what would you say is a word or an alternative to the word modification?

What would be a more inclusive, accessible way? Like 

Melissa Leach: variation. Variation I think is a great word. A [00:36:00] lot of people use adaptation. Mm-hmm. Options Or just the pose? Or just the pose? It's just the different, because we do, we just call it 

Kari Doherty: the pose 

Melissa Leach: Different. Yeah. It's just different. It does because we hold out, like we hold out that a certain aesthetic quality of the pose.

Like let's take revolved crescent lunge your elbow outside of the knee. That's like the goal of the pose. But if it's rooted in limb length, then we've made the person wrong. And it's not the person that's necessarily needing to be fixed. It's the 

Kari Doherty: pose. You know, this is silly, but I've shared with you that I have a frozen shoulder right now.

Mm-hmm. And it is excruciating to me to be in Warrior two and to hold my arm out. It just makes me want to cry. So, you know, what I do is I drop my arm down and I just do it with one arm and I, there is this part of me that has to like almost every time, talk myself out of like, no, you don't look silly.

Your arm is frozen and you're still here. And that's okay. And so, like [00:37:00] even adapting the pose for what's happening in my body right now, which is that I have a frozen shoulder and stretching my arms front and back and looking o like that hurts. 

Melissa Leach: Well, why do you have to, why do you even have to turn your head 

Kari Doherty: over your, you know?

And so, and that's another thing I've stopped doing, is I've stopped turning my head because it creates more stress on my neck than down my shoulder. So now I look straight ahead and I drop one arm and I'm, you know, and yes, I'm gonna call that warrior too. Yeah. Or whatever, 

Melissa Leach: you know, but like, not to be a total, but when we talk about it as an accessible practice, what if someone doesn't have two arms?

Right. They need modifications cuz they're less thin. Right? No. Like Warrior two is like, if we teach warrior two, and I'm not saying that we d we need physical cues, right? We need, but they should be rooted in anatomy. Have your arms out parallel to the ground if you want, or that, or if it, if that doesn't make you [00:38:00] happy for that day, do something with your arms.

It does, right? Like there's a lot of different ways to teach it. How do you invite someone into that pose in a way that allows for an exploration of the physical posture? Not that they have to jam themselves into a shape, right, right. Rather than like, what, 

Kari Doherty: what action. If we were looking at, let's say, warrior two from a functional anatomy perspective, what would we talk about in that pose that had nothing to do with whether your arms were parallel or what direction your gaze was in?

Like what would be the essence of that pose to capture, aside from all of the like bullshit, if we stripped 

Melissa Leach: it down? If you strip it down, it's like, what? What are you actually, if you give people like action cues, right? Mm-hmm. Like what happens if you push your feet down into the ground? What happens? I'm not telling you what to feel.

I'm actually opening a door that you can explore. Yeah. What am I feeling? What does happen in my body when I push my feet into the [00:39:00] ground? You could give a cue, like pull your thigh bones in, in towards the center line of your body. You know, hug everything in towards the center line and notice what that creates in your body.

Mm. So what you're doing there is cultivating a little bit of interoception, is you're inviting them into an inner experience. Mm. Through that physical queue. 

Kari Doherty: Do you teach this stuff in the queuing course? I 

Melissa Leach: do. Cueing course. 

Kari Doherty: Yep. I'm gonna make a plug for Melissa's queuing course, because I took the first iteration and I know that you're releasing it again with even more stuff.

And I have to say that this is one of the things that I love about you as a teacher, and I love having you as my teacher, is that Melissa's focus is on the action, the action of the pose, rather than just like where your limbs go in space. Because as you've said, what if you don't have those limbs? So your focus in teaching yoga is more [00:40:00] on the action 

Melissa Leach: of the post, and that's actually a way to create inclusivity, right?

Everybody to some extent, and I'm not, I'm not dictating to what extent, but everybody could create an action of pressing down into the floor with something. Mm. Everybody could create an action of drawing a drawing in towards the center line of their body, you know, depending on, and so that's like if you give an action, You're also allowing for someone who wants to like give their a hundred percent, they can give that a hundred percent.

If someone, if you have, if you wanna accommodate a beginner or if you have someone who actually needs to act to scale scale back their practice, then they don't have to hug into a hundred percent. They can hug in like Right. 5% or no, no percent. Right? So it's, yeah. Cuing action. Action over alignment.

You use, it's not to say that there isn't, isn't value, especially for new [00:41:00] teachers to have that shape, to have alignment because we need kind, the reality of teaching yoga is we need common language. Right? But that's not, it's, it's letting go that there's some sort of hierarchy of these poses like this better than this, better than this.

Right. Which is where we get into modifications as Right. As a word that like, I, I understand it cuz I think it's very well intentioned. We're trying to accommodate everybody. But if you actually let go of alignment and and shift how you teach, right? It opens up a lot more possibility where we actually don't have to modify, I don't have to fix things.

It just actually accommodates everyone naturally. 

Kari Doherty: I love that. That makes sense. Oh, I love that so much. It makes a lot of sense. One of the things that I love you for saying, and I want you to talk about this for a second, Melissa, I'll, I'll say to Melissa, like this or that or what about this or that? And then Melissa will say, well, it depends.

Melissa Leach: No one likes that. I [00:42:00] love 

Kari Doherty: how you say it depends. So tell us a little bit about what, like what it means to say it depends and like why that is so important in the context of teaching and practicing yoga. It depends 

Melissa Leach: in teaching and practicing yoga, it depends. Our brains really like the black and white.

We like the right or wrong answer and this is why reinforcing like, When we start to learn anatomy plus body movement, it's not always black and white. And I think for people we want the easy answer to, to best accommodate all of our students. And there's not always the easy answer. Sometimes there is, and the reason is it depends, is so someone getting into a pose like wheel could be limited by an almost an infinite number of variables when we, when you strip back or like, this would be something that I would get into [00:43:00] anatomy is when you look at all of the different ways we can be measured as a human being, it blood pressure, limb length heartbeat, like there's, there are so many different variables.

We take a look at like what's happening in your ankles, what's happening at the knee, what's happening at the hip joint, what's happening at the SI joint, what's happening through the spine, the shoulders, the wrists. All of those are variables that impact someone's. Then you layer on, and this gets a little bit more complex, is like the, how stress shows up in the physical body, how that might contribute to a restriction.

What we don't know is like, is it a structural restriction? Is it something muscular that we could work around or work with? The structural is gonna be a hard stop hard stop, but it's not necessarily, we can still, that's why an action cue better than alignment. Right. How stress could impact how someone even hears and interprets [00:44:00] your cues.

It all, it depends and it. Also shows up when we talk about like trauma and mental health, we have a lot of really important information. Like breathing practices are super, like they, they're calming. And these different breathing practices, meditation practices are proven to help with stress and anxiety.

It also, so yes, and also it depends, there is a lot of really solid research out of there, but when you start to pull apart some of these re research studies, it, or like yoga, right? Yoga is beneficial in alleviating stress. One, it depends, depends on the, the individual's nervous system, right? The other, the other, it depends is, well, what part of the yoga practice did they pull apart and study?

Right? Was it the poses? Was it the breath work? Was it the meditation? And then deeper, what style of breath work? What [00:45:00] style of meditation? So that's why, that's why it depends. It does. There are so many variables. And so when we're teaching with Ana, when we're teaching with this an anatomy informed lens, that's our most powerful tool as a teacher, is knowing that it depends.

And we don't, we're not always gonna have the right answer because the human body with all of its different systems is so awe-inspiring. Right, right. And to think that we've got it answered like that is, it's, I mean, it's, it's kind of silly, but yeah, it depends. Gives us a lot of freedom and I, I think having that phrase, it depends.

Kari Doherty: It really does. It takes me off the hook. It really does. Mm-hmm. And I, I just, that's what I've really appreciated about you giving me that phrase as a teacher. It depends. Is just that like, it, it really just does, you know, 

Melissa Leach: like, oh, totally. It like, cause it depends, like if someone ask like, am I doing this right?

It depends. Right. Is it right for you? [00:46:00] I might not do it that way. And that has nothing like, and the way I do it shouldn't matter at all. Right. You know? And it depends. Like, does it hurt? No. Then you prob does it look, you know, a certain way, unlike anything we've ever seen in a yoga class. If it feels good and you're happy and you are gaining a benefit out of this class, then that is the perfect thing for you to be doing.

Right, 

Kari Doherty: right, right, right, right. Like it's just very contextual. Mm-hmm. And when we look at things in a context, then it does depend. Mm-hmm. One other thing I wanna talk about, I wanna pivot to one of the things that I love talking to you about, which is pain. And you have taught me, and one of the things that you teach and you know, the context that you and I get together in, you are doing a, how would you describe it?

Like a trauma informed training with me. 

Melissa Leach: Trauma and mental health trauma where it's like trauma complex stress. 

Kari Doherty: And so one of stress response of the things that we talk about is pain. And, and recently what I heard you say [00:47:00] on your podcast, which we're gonna talk about that in a second. But you talked about how sometimes pain, or was it trauma shows up as pain?

How do, how do you say that? Or like, how would you talk about that A little? 

Melissa Leach: Stress. Stress and trauma can show up as pain in the body. We obviously have pain that is caused by, whether it's overuse, whether it's an acute injury, there's this physical pain that shows up in the body. And that's complica complicated.

Like you're dealing with, you know, as you mentioned, frozen shoulder. Mm-hmm. I deal with, and one of the things that we actually, what I would wanna point to is that we all are dealing with pa when you are a human being using your body, which means if you're going to yoga multiple times a week, you're probably gonna end up with pain, joint pain, muscular pain.

Mm-hmm. And, and it's not like, oh my gosh, you must have been doing it wrong. It's actually kind of a part of being. A human being and we just, we want to stop catastrophizing pain for people. And like, it's not necessarily they need [00:48:00] to be fixed or they need to take back off and take it easy. It's actually learning, using this practice to help people, to teach people how to distinguish different types of pain.

And so pain that we should that, yeah. Is it pain or is it something that you can work around, work with? If it's something in a joint, we might wanna, that's something we wanna work with. If it's something that's radiating, that indicates something that might be a little bit more nervous system related, do we wanna work with that?

You know, if it's showing there's just so many d it's a very complicated conversation. Adding on. You also have different t d pain that comes from different sources and so trauma and stress. Yes, we know that trauma, if it's like a car accident or something physical can cause pain. There's that in, there's an injury.

The one thing to keep in mind is like, we can't overload one system of the body and not have it show up in other systems of the body. The body is way too complex, [00:49:00] way too smart for all of that. So if our nervous system gets overloaded, let's say with stress, anxiety, trauma mm-hmm. Anything like that, it is very possible for it to show up in another area of the body, whether it's in a joint, whether it's in whether it's in a muscle.

So sometimes pain isn't necessarily caused by that certain, that specific movement. Mm-hmm. These pain signals. And that's actually, I'm getting ready to do an injury course and there's gonna be a whole aspect of pain because a lot of people are working with chronic pain and they don't need to be fixed.

They don't need a modification and like, Just as a yoga teacher not as a yoga teacher, as a human being. Like those of us who have had chronic pain, the last thing that we're already frustrated by that pain, and then to walk into a yoga class and be made to feel that we're less than and we need special, it's like, no, we want, like, first [00:50:00] of all, they're pretty, pretty tough just being in that room.

Tough and resilient. Just being in the room, dealing with what they're dealing with. We need to stop making them feel like, or putting over there that they need this modification, that it's actually we need to adjust how we're teaching. But anyway, so pain. Yeah, pain is a very fascinating, and I think respecting that it actually can come from different sources, whether it is an acute or physical injury, that's something that we can deal.

But sometimes, and that's why I think especially when yoga teachers are talking about how this practice is so beneficial for stress and for trauma, it's like, well then you also have to understand the different types of pain that you're working with because that is tied in, you know, so whether it's stress from work, whether it's stress from relationships, all of these things factor in and can chill up as it can present as pain 

Kari Doherty: in the body.

Right, right. Wow, that's so fascinating. So [00:51:00] is this something that people could learn more about in your injury course? Mm-hmm. Yep. And when is that happening? Tell us a little bit about that. 

Melissa Leach: I, that is gonna happen within the next couple weeks. What, I'm really just being very transparent. I'm trying to decide if I want to make it a live course or if I want to do it as a standalone course that people can work through.

And something that you and I actually have, have played with is turning it into like A pre-recorded course that has a group coaching mm-hmm. Component. 

Kari Doherty: I love that. I love that. So it, it may, so we're still waiting to see what it's gonna look like, but that is something that people can expect to see coming from you soon.

Melissa Leach: Yeah. Yeah. And it's gonna be, you know, obviously some easy common injuries that we see and how to work with them. But then it's a little bit more com, like a little bit more complexities when we start a little bit more complex topics such as chronic pain. Cuz I've got a lot of people who will come to me one-on-one.

I've got someone actually who [00:52:00] is scoliosis that's actually looking how to, how she can stay in her practice. And one of these, one of the things with someone with scoliosis is we wanna be super careful about actually pushing flexibility. Mm. Or, you know, for this person and actually shifting the practice to be more stabilizing.

Right. But there's, yeah, so there's the course. I'm very excited about the course. The thing is, if I don't launch it soon, it's gonna be a very, very long course. Cause there's so much information. So I'm like, I actually just need to launch it. So it'll be within the next step. I'm gonna, within the next couple weeks.

Kari Doherty: And then we've got the queuing course. That's another thing that is. Coming. 

Melissa Leach: It's, yeah, I just need to, I need to, yeah, I need to record it. It's, it's language. You and I have had lots of conversations around language and then intentionality and the intention intention with which we cue individual poses and the intention [00:53:00] in how we show up as teacher is so important because if we lack intention when we cue an individual pose, then we're probably gonna lack intention when we put together an individual sequence, which can I, we've, I'm sure we've all been in those classes where I, I've been in classes where I've literally sat down like midway cuz I'm like, I am so confused with what's happening right now.

I, and, and as someone who has practiced for a lot of years, to feel that lost, you can only imagine how someone who Right. Has a newer practice field. And that's something that like, just for me as, as my personal, like. Operating system is, I never want a student in my class to feel like that. I don't want them to feel lost.

I don't wanna feel that. I don't want them to ever feel like Right. Less than overwhelmed. Yeah. Overwhelmed. So, wow. I pivoted. I need to bring that back to what the question was, the cuing 

Kari Doherty: course, which I, I know you enough to know that it's like, you know, if you follow Melissa on Instagram or Facebook, which I would [00:54:00] recommend, you're always talking about queuing in terms of like being able to say why you said that thing.

Melissa Leach: Oh, that would be another. So going back, bringing this back to one of your initial, initial questions for teachers is to be able to answer why you're giving a cue. Yeah. If you don't know why, then you should question it and learn why you're giving that cue. Right. 

Kari Doherty: And these are things that you talk about in the queuing course cuz I've taken one, I've taken your first queuing.

Melissa Leach: We should be like toddlers. Like, why did I say that? And like, what my practice in being intentional with language is like, I will call myself out in class. Like if I say something that like, maybe I, I've heard it before and I'm like, I'm just gonna try this out. Right. And I can tell the minute it comes outta my mouth where I was like, that felt gross coming outta my mouth and it made no sense.

Right? But I'll actually call myself like, what was I even singing? I think it's important that we have a why behind our cues and be able to answer the why, like, behind our sequence. Yeah. Right. You know, like if you're changing, if you're sequencing, [00:55:00] why are those poses put together in that specific way?

Kari Doherty: I wanna finish up lastly with the podcast that you just launched, which is very exciting and you've already made by the time this this interview comes out, there will probably be, be at least two or three episodes available. Mm-hmm. And what is it called again? 

Melissa Leach: It is the Primal Performance 

Kari Doherty: Podcast.

Primal Performance Podcast. Mm-hmm. And I have personally listened to the first episode and loved it and cannot wait for more. So I really wanna encourage our listeners, people who are listening into this interview to check out Melissa's podcast, which is just full of this kind of conversation about, you know physical fitness and yoga and why, and all of this, like really juicy functional anatomy stuff that I just really, really enjoy from you.

Melissa Leach: Well, thank you. I, it's a, it's a very fun podcast and I've partnered with he's actually one of, he's my coach. And [00:56:00] we're going, there's a lot of stuff that shows up in the yoga industry, and I would often put yoga under, you know, the fitness umbrella too. But there's a lot that shows up in. The fitness industry and the nutrition industry and all of these things work together, right, to achieve overall health.

And I, the conversations that I get very excited about especially with my co-host, is to challenge where even the fitness in the nutrition industries can do better. Right. Right. Because there are certain narratives that we were talking about in yoga that exist in, in some of these other, other, I, as in when we're talking, 

Kari Doherty: is getting a master's degree in nutrition right now.

So I would consider you a very solid source. Oh, thank you. I just, I know your level of research and I knows just like the conversations that you and I get into, Sometimes I'm like, wow, I didn't know what I was even asking. And now Melissa, a dissertation on something that I didn't even really know what I was 

Melissa Leach: asking.

Really looking for a one word [00:57:00] answer. Thanks. 

Kari Doherty: Can we just make this a sound bite? I don't, I didn't really want all of that information, but you know, I could, I could always generally like compound it down into, well, Carrie, it depends. And so you know what I love 

Melissa Leach: about that though is that's our job as teacher Yeah.

Is to like, go through all of that so that you distill it down to like the quick simple one-off easy cue for our students to understand. Right, right, right. But our job is to go through all of that to get to that one thing. 

Kari Doherty: That one thing. Right. I think that's a really good place to like, like that feels like this conversation has gone full circle.

I have just really enjoyed this conversation and I wanna encourage people to find Melissa. Movement with Melissa is how people can find you on Instagram. Mm-hmm. Melissa Leach is how they can find you on Facebook Primal. Tell me the name of the podcast one more time. Primal Performance Podcast.

Primal Performance Podcast is how you can find Melissa on [00:58:00] podcast. And then Melissa's always talking about her courses on Instagram, so that's a really good way to kind of stay up to date on what people are looking for from you. Also, I wanna make a plug for your awesome free audio class. People could actually go onto Melissa's link tree and there is a link on there to take a free audio class from Melissa, which I had the pleasure of helping you create.

So I got to take that class and I love that. 

Melissa Leach: Well, it wouldn't be up there without you, so there's a huge amount of gratitude. 

Kari Doherty: So we gotta get you something, we gotta get you some email addresses. So anyway, that would be a great way to get put onto Melissa's newsletter list and take that free audio class.

It's just a really great way to experience Melissa as a yoga teacher. And yeah, I just, you know, I just really love what you're doing and I'm just so grateful that you're my teacher. Thank you so, oh, I'm grateful for answering my Facebook message several months ago. 

Melissa Leach: Well, thanks for being you because 

Kari Doherty: who, you're, I told someone I [00:59:00] was like, so I, there's this like really cool teacher that I really wanted to like, get to know better and I, someone was like, you said that you did that.

I was like, yeah, I just can't help myself. I'm 

Melissa Leach: so glad you did great. Sometimes I just 

Kari Doherty: can't stop myself from, from my impulses and my urchin. 

Melissa Leach: This is the best one ever. 

Kari Doherty: So I'm just so grateful that you took the time to have this conversation with me. Melissa, thank you so much. And I just wanna reiterate, please find Melissa.

She's incredible. An amazing yoga teacher, and a teacher of teachers. So if you're listening to this and you're a yoga teacher, Melissa is also a teacher of teachers like world class. Oh, thank you. So thank you so much for taking the time for this interview. I just adore you and I'm so grateful for getting to just hear you say it all out loud in one place.

I'm gonna, well, thank you for having this interview and take notes for myself. So, 

Melissa Leach: well, the feeling is very, very mutual. I have a tremendous amount of respect for what you're doing.[01:00:00] So the, the feeling 

Kari Doherty: is mutual. Thank you. Well, thank you to all of our listeners and I will look forward to seeing you out there.

So thank you everybody. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Luminous Recovery Yoga Podcast. If you'd like to support the show, please consider joining my Patreon or leaving a comment and review. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or YouTube,