The Imbalance of Power, with Yuval Levin
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Unity is acting together even when we don’t think alike. And one of the primary aims of the American Constitution is to support a democracy of those unified in diversity. Yuval Levin joins Mark Labberton to explore the precarious state of American constitutional life and the imbalance of power between the branches of the U.S. government. Drawing from his book America’s Covenant, Levin argues that the Founders designed the Constitution above all to preserve unity in a divided society. Yet today, he warns, the imbalance of power—particularly the weakness of Congress and the rise of...
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The New Testament in Color, with Janette Ok and Jordan Ryan
Conversing with Mark Labberton
There’s no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible. Every reading is inflected by first-person experience, cultural context, history, and more. In this episode, biblical scholars Janette Ok and Jordan J. Ryan join Mark Labberton to reflect on The New Testament in Color, a groundbreaking new biblical commentary that brings together diverse voices across racial, cultural, and social locations. They share how their own ethnic and cultural backgrounds as Asian American and Filipino Canadian readers shaped their understanding of Scripture, the importance of social location, using the creeds...
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Compassionate Creativity, with Mitali Perkins
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Creativity doesn’t come easy. It is often an act of resistance against chaos and other de-personalizing forces. In this episode, author Mitali Perkins joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives. Known for her acclaimed novels for young readers—including You Bring the Distant Near and Rickshaw Girl—Perkins reflects on the creative life as both a gift and a struggle, marked by tenderness and tenacity. With candour about rejection, moments of mortification, and the relentless call to keep making, Perkins offers encouragement for artists...
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Love at the Margins, with Tom Crisp
Conversing with Mark Labberton
What are the implications of Jesus’s radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel? Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through...
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When Willpower Isn’t Enough, with John Ortberg
Conversing with Mark Labberton
“Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don’t want to do, and we don’t do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on...
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Black and Evangelical, with Vincent Bacote
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work...
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Faithful Ecological Science, with Ben Lowe
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth. He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church’s role in ecological justice. As executive director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They move from scientific...
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Restoring a Credible Christian Witness, with Jemar Tisby and Nikki Toyama-Szeto
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative. In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby. Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching,...
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After the Fire, with Megan Katerjian, Kerwin Manning, and Mayra Macedo-Nolan
Conversing with Mark Labberton
In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighbourhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbours, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith. Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the...
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The Church of the Future, with Kara Powell and Raymond Chang
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches...
info_outline“If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.”
In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the full-bodied, empathetic nature of listening and the communication process. He reflects on good listening, the empathy it requires, and what it means to truly recognize and successfully understand each other.
Listening and perceiving are bound up together in a fundamental way, offering us an opportunity to enter into another’s experience, truly seeing and recognizing them and receiving who they are.
About Conversing Shorts
“In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.”
About Mark Labberton
Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing.
Show Notes
- “Listening is almost always seeing.”
- Full-bodied listening and how perception adds to our understanding of each other
- “If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.”
- Examples of bad listening: “pinning words on the speaker.”
- Recognition for the speaker: “My listening reflects that I'm actually perceiving them.”
- The fun and joyful work of communication
- Total body experience of listening and perceiving is about empathy.
- Empathy and entering the speaker’s world and experience
- The difference empathy makes
- “Empathy, even when you're wanting to give it doesn't make it automatic. It often has to be something that emerges out of the communication experience itself.”
- Hearing, perception, and full-bodied communication
- “How we see and receive another person’s being…”
- Achieving a communication breakthrough: “Oh, I see!”
- ”It is like amazing grace is playing in the background. And I want to say ‘I once was blind, but now I see’ that's what it feels like a real revelatory discovery.”
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.