Conversing with Mark Labberton
Church planting is thriving at the very moment the church faces a crisis of credibility. What if the problem isn’t too few churches—but too narrow a vision of what church is for? In this episode with Mark Labberton, Brad Brisco reflects on church planting shaped by Christology before strategy, mission before institution, and incarnation before programs. Together they discuss missionary imagination in the modern West, co-vocational ministry, alternative expressions of church, micro-church networks, church growth assumptions, vocation and work, justice and proximity, and what it means to...
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Christian faith has been politicized. Arguably, this is not new. But what we see in America and other societies has a jarring impact for those who seek a credible public Christian faith. To examine how Christian faith has been politicized in recent years, preacher and public theologian Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove joins Mark Labberton, asking what moral resistance requires in this authoritarian moment. “I couldn’t know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice.” In this episode: Wilson-Hartgrove reflects on his Southern Baptist formation, his political...
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As violence erupts around the world, how must we respond to those who worship power? In Venezuela, global power has reshaped lives overnight, and Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza join Mark Labberton to reflect on faith, fear, and Christian witness amid political upheaval in Latin America. “It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol.” Together they discuss how experiences of dictatorship, displacement, and pastoral caution shape Christian responses to invasion and regime change; the relationship between...
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What happens when a long pastoral calling ends, friendships fade, and the church faces cultural fracture? Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer (42 years in ministry at Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, CA) joins Mark Labberton for a searching conversation about retirement from pastoral ministry, loneliness, leadership, and the meaning of credible witness in the Black church today. “Ministry can be a lonely business.” In this episode, Bishop Ulmer reflects on the stepping away after four decades of pastoral leadership, navigating aloneness, disrupted rhythms, and the spiritual costs of...
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Can joy be anything but denial in a rage-filled public life? Michael Wear joins Mark Labberton to reframe politics through the kingdom logic of hope, agency, and practices of silence and solitude. As 2025 closes amid political discord, we might all ask whether joy can be real in public life—without denial, escapism, or contempt. "… Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." In this conversation, Michael Wear and Mark Labberton reflect on joy, hope, responsibility, and agency amid a reaction-driven politics. Together they discuss the realism of Advent; the limits of our control;...
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What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it. “I don’t see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution...
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How should Christian faith shape work in an era of pluralism, fear, and systemic inequality? Sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund (Rice University) is presenting new insights for faith at work through data, theology, and lived experience. “People love to talk about individual ethics … but what was really hard for them to think about was, what would it mean to make our workplace better as a whole?” In this episode, Ecklund joins Mark Labberton to reflect on moving from individual morality toward systemic responsibility, dignity, and other-centred Christian witness at work. Together they...
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As global powers double down on militarism and defense, Daniel Zoughbie argues that the most transformative force in the Middle East has always come from citizen diplomacy. A complex-systems scientist and diplomatic historian, Zoughbie joins Mark Labberton to explore how twelve US presidents have “kicked the hornet’s nest” of the modern Middle East. Drawing on his work in global health and his new book Kicking the Hornet’s Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump, Zoughbie contrasts the view from refugee camps and micro-clinic networks with the view from the...
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Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation’s 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary...
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In this Thanksgiving reflection, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to concrete acts of hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community “Friendsgiving” potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and...
info_outlineWho are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work through the tensions, challenges, and possibilities for a more truthful and hopeful evangelical witness.
Episode Highlights
- “The goal of the documentary is not to be a kind of hit piece about the evangelical movement. It’s to tell the story of the church.”
- “To be for Black people is not to be against somebody else.” – Tom Skinner
- “I couldn’t understand why the Bible people weren’t leading the way on questions of race.”
- “Participation in evangelical spaces can’t mean leaving part of yourself outside.”
- “Realism allows you to have honesty, but also remember the good news is the greatest news of all.”
- “God wants all of us—our whole selves—not a muted version.”
Helpful Links and Resources
- Black + Evangelical Documentary (Christianity Today)
- Black + Evangelical Documentary Trailer
- The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life by Vincent Bacote
- Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News by Vincent Bacote
- Breaking Down Walls by Raleigh Washington & Glen Kehrein
- Tom Skinner’s Urbana 1970 Address (Full Audio)
- *The Color of Compromise* by Jemar Tisby
About Vincent Bacote
Vincent Bacote is professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics. He is the author of several books, including The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life and Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News: In Search of a Better Evangelical Theology. His research and teaching address public theology, ethics, and the intersection of race and evangelical identity. Bacote is a widely cited commentator and a frequent voice in conversations about Christian faithfulness in public life.
Show Notes
- Mark Labberton welcomes Vincent Bacote, professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics.
- Introduction to the Black + Evangelical documentary, a project Bacote helped conceive and produce.
- Bacote’s upbringing at Shiloh Baptist Church of Glenarden, Maryland—unknowingly part of the Progressive National Baptist Convention.
- Conversion experience around age ten, preceded by years of genuine faith.
- College years at the Citadel; involvement in the Navigators campus ministry.
- Influence of a summer training program in Memphis focused on African American ministry.
- Early exposure to evangelical culture through radio preachers like Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, and James Dobson.
- Initial tensions over the lack of evangelical engagement on issues of race.
- Graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School with the initial goal of becoming a pastor.
- Encounter with Raleigh Washington and Glen Kehrein’s Breaking Down Walls, grounding racial reconciliation in Ephesians 2.
- Observations of the scarcity of black theologians in evangelical seminaries.
- 1993 Geneva College conference on black evangelicals—learning from leaders like Bill Pannell, Tom Skinner, Tony Evans, Carl Ellis, and Eugene Rivers.
- Writing an editorial titled “Black and Evangelical: An Uneasy Tension?” for the student paper at Trinity.
- Realization that evangelicalism is both a biblical and socio-cultural movement with contextual blind spots.
- Arrival at Wheaton College in 2000 with a focus on public theology and ethics beyond race alone.
- Genesis of the Black + Evangelical project at a 2008 Fuller Seminary gathering with Ron Potter.
- Partnership with Christianity Today and filmmaker Dan Long to shape the documentary.
- Filming over forty hours of interviews with twenty-four participants, distilled into a ninety-four-minute film.
- Mark Labberton highlights Tom Skinner’s impact and his “Blackface” critique of white evangelicalism.
- Bacote reflects on his “racially optimistic” early years and growing awareness of systemic realities.
- Analysis of the Promise Keepers movement and the need for sustained relational work beyond large gatherings.
- Challenges in building genuine multiethnic churches versus surface-level diversity.
- The documentary’s aim: to tell the church’s story, honour lived experiences, and inspire commitment to mission.
- Bacote’s “four stages” for minorities in evangelical institutions: delight, dissonance, distress, and decision.
- Emphasis on “sober hope”—honesty about pain while holding onto the good news.
- The gospel’s call to bring one’s full self into the life of the church.
- Closing encouragement to watch and share Black + Evangelical as a story worth hearing for the whole church.
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.