Conversing with Mark Labberton
Unity is acting together even when we don’t think alike. And one of the primary aims of the American Constitution is to support a democracy of those unified in diversity. Yuval Levin joins Mark Labberton to explore the precarious state of American constitutional life and the imbalance of power between the branches of the U.S. government. Drawing from his book America’s Covenant, Levin argues that the Founders designed the Constitution above all to preserve unity in a divided society. Yet today, he warns, the imbalance of power—particularly the weakness of Congress and the rise of...
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There’s no such thing as a neutral reading of the Bible. Every reading is inflected by first-person experience, cultural context, history, and more. In this episode, biblical scholars Janette Ok and Jordan J. Ryan join Mark Labberton to reflect on The New Testament in Color, a groundbreaking new biblical commentary that brings together diverse voices across racial, cultural, and social locations. They share how their own ethnic and cultural backgrounds as Asian American and Filipino Canadian readers shaped their understanding of Scripture, the importance of social location, using the creeds...
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Creativity doesn’t come easy. It is often an act of resistance against chaos and other de-personalizing forces. In this episode, author Mitali Perkins joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book Just Making: A Guide for Compassionate Creatives. Known for her acclaimed novels for young readers—including You Bring the Distant Near and Rickshaw Girl—Perkins reflects on the creative life as both a gift and a struggle, marked by tenderness and tenacity. With candour about rejection, moments of mortification, and the relentless call to keep making, Perkins offers encouragement for artists...
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What are the implications of Jesus’s radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel? Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through...
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“Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don’t want to do, and we don’t do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on...
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Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work...
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Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth. He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church’s role in ecological justice. As executive director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They move from scientific...
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Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative. In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby. Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching,...
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In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighbourhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbours, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith. Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the...
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Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches...
info_outlineWho are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work through the tensions, challenges, and possibilities for a more truthful and hopeful evangelical witness.
Episode Highlights
- “The goal of the documentary is not to be a kind of hit piece about the evangelical movement. It’s to tell the story of the church.”
- “To be for Black people is not to be against somebody else.” – Tom Skinner
- “I couldn’t understand why the Bible people weren’t leading the way on questions of race.”
- “Participation in evangelical spaces can’t mean leaving part of yourself outside.”
- “Realism allows you to have honesty, but also remember the good news is the greatest news of all.”
- “God wants all of us—our whole selves—not a muted version.”
Helpful Links and Resources
- Black + Evangelical Documentary (Christianity Today)
- Black + Evangelical Documentary Trailer
- The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life by Vincent Bacote
- Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News by Vincent Bacote
- Breaking Down Walls by Raleigh Washington & Glen Kehrein
- Tom Skinner’s Urbana 1970 Address (Full Audio)
- *The Color of Compromise* by Jemar Tisby
About Vincent Bacote
Vincent Bacote is professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics. He is the author of several books, including The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life and Reckoning with Race and Performing the Good News: In Search of a Better Evangelical Theology. His research and teaching address public theology, ethics, and the intersection of race and evangelical identity. Bacote is a widely cited commentator and a frequent voice in conversations about Christian faithfulness in public life.
Show Notes
- Mark Labberton welcomes Vincent Bacote, professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics.
- Introduction to the Black + Evangelical documentary, a project Bacote helped conceive and produce.
- Bacote’s upbringing at Shiloh Baptist Church of Glenarden, Maryland—unknowingly part of the Progressive National Baptist Convention.
- Conversion experience around age ten, preceded by years of genuine faith.
- College years at the Citadel; involvement in the Navigators campus ministry.
- Influence of a summer training program in Memphis focused on African American ministry.
- Early exposure to evangelical culture through radio preachers like Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, John MacArthur, and James Dobson.
- Initial tensions over the lack of evangelical engagement on issues of race.
- Graduate studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School with the initial goal of becoming a pastor.
- Encounter with Raleigh Washington and Glen Kehrein’s Breaking Down Walls, grounding racial reconciliation in Ephesians 2.
- Observations of the scarcity of black theologians in evangelical seminaries.
- 1993 Geneva College conference on black evangelicals—learning from leaders like Bill Pannell, Tom Skinner, Tony Evans, Carl Ellis, and Eugene Rivers.
- Writing an editorial titled “Black and Evangelical: An Uneasy Tension?” for the student paper at Trinity.
- Realization that evangelicalism is both a biblical and socio-cultural movement with contextual blind spots.
- Arrival at Wheaton College in 2000 with a focus on public theology and ethics beyond race alone.
- Genesis of the Black + Evangelical project at a 2008 Fuller Seminary gathering with Ron Potter.
- Partnership with Christianity Today and filmmaker Dan Long to shape the documentary.
- Filming over forty hours of interviews with twenty-four participants, distilled into a ninety-four-minute film.
- Mark Labberton highlights Tom Skinner’s impact and his “Blackface” critique of white evangelicalism.
- Bacote reflects on his “racially optimistic” early years and growing awareness of systemic realities.
- Analysis of the Promise Keepers movement and the need for sustained relational work beyond large gatherings.
- Challenges in building genuine multiethnic churches versus surface-level diversity.
- The documentary’s aim: to tell the church’s story, honour lived experiences, and inspire commitment to mission.
- Bacote’s “four stages” for minorities in evangelical institutions: delight, dissonance, distress, and decision.
- Emphasis on “sober hope”—honesty about pain while holding onto the good news.
- The gospel’s call to bring one’s full self into the life of the church.
- Closing encouragement to watch and share Black + Evangelical as a story worth hearing for the whole church.
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.